S3: E4 – Him or Me

I'm John Walczak, host of the new podcast, Missing in Arizona.

And I'm, Robert Fisher, one of the most wanted men in the world.

We cloned his voice using AI. Hello, I'm Robert Fisher. In 2001,, Police say I killed my family and rigged my house to explode. Before escaping into the wilderness. Police believe he is alive and hiding somewhere.

Hunting.

One of the most dangerous fugitives in the world.

Robert Fisher. Do you recognize my voice? Listen to Missing in Arizona every Wednesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.

Back in 96, Atlanta was booming with excitement around hosting the Centennial Olympic Games. And then a deranged zealot willing to kill for a cause lit a fuse that would change my life and so many others forever. Rippling out for generations.

This could be the craziest podcast pairing ever. The governor of California, Gavin Newsom, and Super Bowl champ, Marshawn Beastmode Lynch, are politicking.

What does politicking even mean? There's bridge and gaps.

With no politics.

Joined by their friend and agent, Doug Hendrickson, it's going to be a wild ride.

We can change the world podcast by podcast.

Listen to Politicking with Gavin Newsom, Marshawn Lynch, and Doug Hendrickson on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Open your free iHeart app and search politicking and start listening.

I remember sitting there crying, and I was like, this child who you called yours. This is the child that you loved so much and you want him burned in a barrel. How disgusting.

I'm Andrea Gunning. This is Betrayal, season 3, episode 4. Him or me?

The only chairs here are hard, as well as the beds, and this is probably TMI, but the diet they give us caused me the worst constipation. It really makes things terrible.

Once Tyler came forward, the Berks County District Attorney's Office was able to build a strong case against Justin. There was a good chance he could be sentenced to decades in jail, and that was largely because of what Tyler was able to share during his forensic interview.

I don't remember if it was Detective Fick or Weaver. One of them I had spoken to, and they said they were so proud of Tyler because they had never seen a child or heard a child give such a detailed interview, as far as how much information he recalled.

As the trial date drew closer, Justin's letters to family and friends grew more frenzied.

Nanny, call around to some of the lawyers below. Explain my charges and deal I was offered, which is basically 15 to 30, or open plea. See if they think they could do better and see if they would do pro bono or reduced fee due to money already spent on current lawyer.

Justin's father had an adopted daughter. Justin wrote to her.

It's been a while since we have spoken. I miss you and the fam so much. I feel like we were the closest and you came to visit regularly.

She ignored it. Nanny, however, stayed in regular contact with Justin and he sent her many letters from jail like this.

I can't live life knowing I won't be able to be with my kids until they are adults that I was a failure and not given a chance at redemption. And honestly, if it comes down to it, I guess. I'll have to take the pain away myself. I don't want it to end that way, but I literally can't do it. I'm not strong enough to serve so long.

Justin was doing anything he could to get out of the Berks County jail where he was awaiting trial. Tyler was in a kind of jail as well, a jail that Justin had built.

When the abuse was going on, that was just my normal day-to-day life. I didn't think much of it. It was just how things went and it was expected to happen. It wasn't a shock. I was used to it.

Stacey wanted to do something nice for the kids, to get away from the whole mess at home. So she took them to Disney World. It's called the happiest place on Earth. But for Tyler, it was anything but.

Everyone smiled on their faces and, like in my head, it was a completely different atmosphere. It was like I was in a different spot. Like Stranger Things, how they have the upside down. That's where I was. I mean, I was in the same place, but in my mind, I was in a different atmosphere.

At Disney, Tyler started fearing for his little brother and sister. The lines, throngs of people everywhere. He still carries that with him.

I just. I worry with the littles being in public. I hate when they run off. I don't like them being more than like a foot from me, but I just. I just worry so much.

He appreciated his mom trying to show the kids a good time. after all they'd been through, but the anxiety was unrelenting, punishing. It followed Tyler when he was awake, asleep. It didn't matter. Tyler had a great therapist, but that weekly meeting was no match for the pervasive thoughts that plagued him 24-7..

I definitely struggled with both depression and anxiety, but to me,

I got the phone call and it was a FaceTime video from him. He's crying and he's like, I'm scared. My chest feels funny. And he's like, I took something.

Mom got there.

They sent the paramedics. They said I was all right. I would just have a very fast heart rate for a while with all the caffeine.

They took him to the hospital and then that's when he got admitted. Tyler was admitted into a mental health facility in Virginia with a reputable youth program.

Not only did Justin ruin his childhood, but now he doesn't even want to live on this earth. I felt like he had took enough from him. And I think that's what made me angry. Is he knew how much my kids meant to me. If Tyler would have died, I say I probably would have just jumped with him, because I don't know how parents live without their kids.

I stayed there for, I think, about eight days and the whole time just went through therapy.

The inpatient program gave him helpful strategies to deal with his anxiety.

They gave us a bunch of like papers and handouts to keep. It had like good coping mechanisms on there. I kept that paper and took it with me wherever I went.

Tyler recognized his treatment as an opportunity.

You just got to want it, because there's definitely kids in there who didn't want it and therefore didn't help them like it did me. Like. I know a kid who said he'd been in and out of them for like six years and then, after you go so many times, they make you stay longer and longer, and he was telling me his last day in one was like nine months.

Tyler was determined to make strides in his mental health. He didn't want this to be the rest of his life.

I honestly thought it was like a good break from life. Like I actually enjoyed it, because it was just calm and it helped teach me a lot.

Tyler told me that he still has some rough patches and weeks of feeling bad, but he's doing much better and suicide doesn't enter his mind anymore.

It started with a backpack at the 1996 Centennial Olympic Games, a backpack that contained a bomb. While the authorities focused on the wrong suspect, a serial bomber planned his next attacks. Two abortion clinics and a lesbian bar.

I saw, as soon as I turned the corner, basically someone bleeding out.

The victims of these brutal attacks were left to pick up the pieces, forced to explore the gray areas between right and wrong, life and death. Their once ordinary lives, and mine, changed forever.

It kind of gave me a feeling of a pending doom.

And all the while, our country found itself facing down a long and ugly reckoning with a growing threat. Far-right, homegrown, religious terrorism. Listen to Flashpoint on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm John Walczak, host of the new podcast, Missing in Arizona.

And I'm, Robert Fisher, one of the most wanted men in the world.

We cloned his voice using AI. In 2001,. police say I killed my family, first mom, then the kids, and rigged my house to explode in a quiet suburb. This is the Beverly Hills of the Valley. Before escaping into the.

wilderness, there was sleet and hail and snow coming down.

They found my wife's SUV right on the reservation boundary, and my.

dog flew. All I could think of is him going to sniper me out of some tree.

But not me. Police believe he is alive and hiding somewhere. For two years, they won't tell you anything. I've traveled the nation. I'm going down in the cave.

that I picked him up and took him somewhere. If you keep asking me.

this, I'm going to call the police and have you removed. Searching.

for Robert Fisher, one of the most dangerous fugitives in the world.

Do you recognize my voice? Join an exploding house to hunt family.

annihilation today and a disappearing act. Listen to Missing in Arizona.

every Wednesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.

This could be the craziest podcast pairing ever. The governor of California, Gavin Newsom, and Super Bowl champ, Marshawn Beastmode Lynch are politicking. What does politicking even mean? There's bridge and gaps with no politics. Joined by their friend and agent, Doug Hendrickson,

We can change the world, podcast by podcast.

Listen to Politicking with Gavin Newsom, Marshawn Lynch, and Doug Hendrickson on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Open your free iHeart app and search politicking and start listening.

Stacey and Tyler had a lot of dates to deal with. Meetings with prosecutors and court appearances. A few months after Tyler finished his treatment and about two years after Justin was arrested, there was a special day. Stacey's whole family was looking forward to. The August 2023 wedding of Stacey's eldest daughter, Michaela, to her longtime boyfriend, Tommy.

cheated. For Father's Day one year, I said, when I'm old enough and find the right man who loves me the way that you do, will you walk me down the aisle? Some nights we would be planning and I would.

cry.

piece here.

It was hard for me to be truly happy with it. Like, oh, I'm getting.

married because everyone around me is miserable. And here I am.

like, oh, what color do you want to wear to my wedding? When the day finally came, the whole family rose to the occasion. Just talking about it makes Stacey emotional. Michaela's wedding was beautiful.

in August. There was so much joy that day and that was a day that was going to be really hard for me. that ended up not, not at all. Like, and that was, I can 100% say a God thing, because, you know, it just, it was a beautiful day. They were all dressed beautifully.

They danced. Michaela and Tommy are a great couple. It was a celebration of them, of family, of survival, of making it this far.

For a window of a weekend, I think we just forgot about things. Like, I would have just loved to live in that weekend at Michaela's wedding, because that was our first time where we just had fun. We didn't think about it. We didn't talk about it. Like, today's a day of being joyful and new beginnings, and there's a lot missing that day, but there was also so much more.

While the family reveled in a new chapter of love, Justin continued stewing in jail.

Dear Nanny, thank you for trying option 3.

Please keep this to yourself. Finally, an admission that he did.

put the camera in the house. The camera is basically what screwed me, because there is no evidence otherwise for the rape charges. I do swear to you, Nanny, that I never raped anyone. So basically, I should be serving maybe a year for my true crimes, but instead may end up serving much more.

This is hard to stomach. I got myself in a pickle is something you say when you make plans with two different friends on the same night. Not a phrase when you use to describe these kinds.

of charges. He continues. I would be institutionalized and have no way to ever retire. It's literally the worst ending to my life. I could imagine.

Sergeant Fick found the relationship between Nanny D. and.

Justin puzzling.

and Justin. Their communication did not sound like an aunt and nephew or godmother and godson. I mean there's times they talk.

like they're husband and wife. I was confused by that. I know she supports Justin. He has a lot of people fooled in his family.

Meg McCallum, the lead assistant district attorney of Berks County, was busy preparing for trial. She was assigned to prosecute the.

case. I have been specifically doing sexual assault prosecution for 10 and a half years now.

he was tiny. ADA McCallum pointed out that there are times when these cases can't be prosecuted. Sometimes I have to make the.

hard decision where I don't believe a child is going to be able to make it through the process, or I just don't think that we're going to be able to get a beyond the reasonable doubt verdict, and so sometimes those cases are not approved. That's actually probably the hardest thing that I have to do, because then I have to tell that family it's not the time for this. And what about Tyler? Could he make it through a trial? There was no question.

okay. And what if Justin got what he wanted and Tyler didn't testify?

If Tyler didn't cooperate and if Tyler wasn't willing to testify in this case at a trial, we would not be able to convict Justin Rutherford of the crimes for his conduct against Tyler. In Pennsylvania. specifically, I have to call child victims to testify unless there is some other evidence where it's videotaped or something like that, or somebody witnesses it, in order to sustain my convictions. And so, because sexual offenses occur secretly, they happen for a very long time. We have almost no evidence ever other than the victim's own words.

office had solid evidence against Justin. They believed he needed to be held accountable for his crimes and kept off the streets. So they made a plea offer. Justin found the offer unacceptable.

Dear Nanny, I am so sad that you want me to take this deal. I don't understand how you think it is okay for me to be in here for 15, 30 years. Do you think I'm guilty? Do you not believe me? I mean, I know it's not your fault.

is Tyler. The. he is a 16-year-old boy who has just lost everything. According to Justin, Tyler was doing this to him, to Nanny D and the kids, and Nanny wasn't doing anything about it. I lost.

my wife, house, car, job. If I took this deal, I would not only lose my kids, since I would not be out until they were adults, but I would lose my career. I would never practice medicine again.

have nothing. If Justin thought nothing of Tyler's testimony, why was he trying so hard to have him recant? You always said.

you would do anything for me. You could negotiate other terms, such as money, treatment, etc. I'll complete treatment and never contact him if he recants and doesn't testify. I know I'm putting you in a difficult spot, and it's not something I like to do, but, Nanny, this is not fair, and you know it. I am backed into a corner with nowhere to go.

In these letters, Justin emotionally torments his godmother, Nanny. He uses suicide and dying as a negotiation tactic. The blood would be on her hands. Justin must have thought that would work on Nanny. He knew.

the 1996 Centennial Olympic Games, a backpack that contained a bomb. While the authorities focused on the wrong suspect, a serial bomber planned his next attacks. Two abortion clinics and a lesbian bar.

I turned the corner, basically someone bleeding out. The victims.

of these brutal attacks were left to pick up the pieces, forced to explore the gray areas between right and wrong, life and death. Their once ordinary lives, and mine, changed forever.

It kind of gave me a feeling of pending doom. And all the.

while, our country found itself facing down a long and ugly reckoning with a growing threat. Far-right, homegrown, religious terrorism. Listen to Flashpoint on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm John Walczak, host of the new podcast, Missing in Arizona.

And I'm, Robert Fisher, one of the most wanted men in the world.

We cloned his voice using AI. In 2001,. police say I killed.

my family, first mom, then the kids, and rigged my house to.

explode in a quiet suburb. This is the Beverly Hills of the.

Valley. Before escaping into the wilderness, there was sleet and.

hail and snow coming down. They found my wife's SUV, right on.

the reservation boundary. And my dog, Blue. All I could think.

of, is him going to sniper me out of some tree. But not me.

Police believe he is alive and hiding somewhere. For two years, they won't tell you anything. I've traveled the nation. I'm going down in the cave. Tracking down clues.

that I picked him up and took him somewhere. If you keep asking.

me this, I'm going to call the police and have you removed.

Searching for Robert Fisher. One of the most dangerous fugitives.

in the world. Do you recognize my voice? Join an exploding.

house. The hunt. Family annihilation. Today. And a disappearing.

act. Listen to Missing in Arizona every Wednesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.

This could be the craziest podcast pairing ever. The governor of California, Gavin Newsom, and Super Bowl champ, Marshawn Beastmode Lynch are politicking. What does politicking even mean?

There's bridge and gaps. With no politics. Joined by their.

friend and agent, Doug Hendrickson, it's going to be a wild.

ride. We can change the world, podcast by podcast.

politicking with Gavin Newsom, Marshawn Lynch, and Doug Hendrickson on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Open your free iHeart app and search politicking and start listening.

She really loved him.

2. He wrote to Nanny. Even the Bible is full of God smiting one's enemies. For example, David versus Goliath. At this point, you have to choose a side.

known that the police monitored his communication, but at that point, he didn't seem to care. He was done being reasonable.

I really need you to do this, and I mean ASAP. Look, I have tried every other way.

Was he really suggesting what I think he is suggesting? I am.

done fucking around. The offer they gave me is the same as this 23-year-old kid who stabbed his mother 60-plus times, all because of stories that were made up after the camera thing went down.

He even suggested this. Go downtown Martinsburg and look for a.

druggie. Just get it done.

Cash. Any old druggie would do to kill Tyler. Remember, this man was a doctor. Justin always told Nanny he loved her and would look after her and his letters, but he seemed quite willing to risk her freedom.

your few remaining years for my 40-plus. That is, if you do it. Obviously, talk to no one else and ask for a lawyer immediately.

if questioned. And if she could find a willing assassin, he offered guidance on the best time to approach the target. I.

recommend after work, but you do it how you wish. This is not the road I wanted, but it is the one that must be taken. It's.

either that or me. In case Nanny wasn't taking the suicide threat to heart, he concluded the letter with his own obituary.

33-year-old male with so much potential.

find someone to kill Tyler. He would take the matter into his own hands and find someone on the inside. What was Justin offering? Money, of course. Other inmates probably thought.

he was rich since he was a doctor. He just basically said, you know, when I get out of here, I'll make sure that you're.

comfortable. Justin would do anything, anything to save himself. The details were all in the affidavit of probable cause.

the jailhouse letters, I wanted to arrest him for that. At that point, we were told they felt we needed more. I went to other state prisons and interviewed individuals that were cellmates and on the block with Justin, and they all told me that's all he would talk about. But the good news is we did have the chance to use an informant to obtain information how he wanted to have Tyler killed. They caught a break.

Another prisoner whose release date was near, came forward. He was disturbed by Justin's persistent solicitation of him to kill Tyler when he was released.

didn't believe Justin. He thought he was joking, because when you're in there, you have nothing else to do. You're going to blow steam off. I wish he was dead. I get it, but he went too far.

that line. Justin knew the layout of the home where Tyler was living, the nights he worked, where his room was in the new house. How? In the last episode, Stacey explained that she allowed the Littles to send and receive letters from Justin in jail, but there was more. Stacey also permitted Justin to have video calls with them.

map. The kids video chatted and wanted to show him their new house.

this stuff in the back. Stacey didn't want Tyler to be in the house during these calls. I would say Tyler's not home.

this night. He's got to work. That'd be a great night for you to call. So, like he knew his work schedule, because of that. I never thought twice about.

him that he's at work. Detectives drove down to Stacey's home from Berks County to tell her about Justin's plot.

in person. I remember sitting there crying and I was like this child who you called yours. This is the child that you loved so much and you want him burned in a barrel. How disgusting. He knew how much my kids mean to me and you were okay taking that.

thought he was smarter than everyone, but he wasn't smarter than the Berks County detectives. They planted a recording device and captured evidence of his plans to kill Tyler. Justin had exhausted his options and option one seemed more like a ruse to manipulate Nannie. Now, Assistant District Attorney Meg McCallum had a new option of her own, and it was one Justin probably never saw coming.

Charges were brought against Justin Rutherford for a solicitation to commit a murder, specifically of Tyler, and I legally and ethically believe that we had sufficient evidence to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.

On the next episode of Betrayal, Stacy and Tyler finally get their day in court. I wanted to look at him because I.

wanted him to see my face when I was reading what I said.

to him. And Justin's words shock everyone. It had nothing.

to do with your age. I mean, love can strike you at any point. You know, look at Demi Moore and Ashton Kutcher.

If you're a man who has experienced sexual abuse or assault or you know someone who is seeking support, go to 1in6.

I'm John Walczak, host of the new podcast, Missing in.

Arizona. And I'm, Robert Fischer, one of the most wanted.

men in the world. We cloned his voice using AI. In 2001,. police say I killed my family and rigged my house to explode before escaping into the wilderness. Police believe he is alive and hiding somewhere.

have you removed. Hunting. One of the most dangerous fugitives?

in the world. Robert Fischer. Do you recognize my voice? Listen to Missing in Arizona every Wednesday on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.

Back in 96, Atlanta was booming with excitement around hosting the Centennial Olympic Games. And then a deranged zealot willing to kill for a cause lit a fuse that would change my life and so many others forever. Rippling out for generations.

This could be the craziest podcast pairing ever. The governor of California, Gavin Newsom and Super Bowl champ Marshawn Beastmode Lynch are politicking. What does politicking even?

mean? There's bridging gaps with no politics. Joined by their.

friend and agent Doug Hendrickson, it's going to be a wild.

ride. We can change the world, podcast by podcast.

Listen to politicking with Gavin Newsom, Marshawn Lynch, and Doug Hendrickson on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Open your free iHeart app and search politicking and start listening.