Does God bring heaven to earth?

He's a huge fan. That's so sweet. No, he really does. He really does. It's Sky and Phil, first name only.

You're a big deal. So thank you for inviting me. This is awesome.

Does God bring heaven to us?

Maybe that's the Hebrew pronunciation of earth.

That's just amazing. So when I'm talking to folks that don't have a huge theological background, I like to tell stories and trying to answer the question, as we do. You know this. You're talking to kids all the time. What a great idea for a podcast, by the way.

Thanks. So, first of all, how insightful a question is this? Because I always assumed it was the opposite, that what God was doing was trying to get us into heaven instead of bringing heaven to earth. So the fact that this little one already framed the question that way is so far above where...

So one of the things that surprised me is that the Bible opens, one of the first things the Bible says is that God created the heavens and the earth. And when I heard the word heaven, I thought that meant the place you go when you die.

And God's dream was that heaven, the sky and the land would live together, that God would live with his people in this place called Eden. And in the middle of Eden, there was going to be a garden where God was going to live with human beings forever. And they were going to live under the joy and delight of God's good world. But, as you probably already know, young one, that's not how it turned out. And so there was some sort of rupture.

The Bible doesn't give us a lot of details about how it worked, but there's some sort of rupture between heaven and earth. So that later on in the story, they're spoken of as almost separate realms, like God lives in the highest heaven, but the earth he's given to human beings. The heaven became to mean more than just sky. It meant, it became a picture of God's power and authority and rule over everything. And the phrase, the earth became a picture of human beings doing their thing, often in opposition to what God wanted for them.

And so later on in the story, we read that God is still loving people and he's still creating places on the earth where he visits people and he walks with people. Sometimes those are called temples or tabernacles. It was a place where the heaven space, God's space, would overlap with the earth space and human space. And you would go in and you could know that God loves you and that God forgives you and that God is still with you and your people. And it was a beautiful, beautiful picture, but it wasn't what God designed in the beginning.

In the beginning, God wanted to just be with his people, with no rupture or space between them at all. And so when Jesus shows up, when Jesus comes to earth, Jesus, one of his big announcements was that the kingdom of the heavens is right here next to you. And that is a very Jewish way of saying that Eden picture of God dwelling with human beings, that the picture of the temple in Jerusalem where God dwelt with Israel, that picture has now come true in the person of Jesus, that Jesus literally brought heaven to earth. He showed us what God is like and how the reign and rule of God works and how beautiful God is. He showed us what God desires for human beings and how they treat each other.

And so in Jesus, heaven and earth sort of overlapped perfectly. And then Jesus says this crazy thing where Jesus says, okay, I'm going to die for everybody's sins, but it's actually not a bad thing that I'm leaving, because what I'm going to do is I'm going to send my spirit to live in you. And you now will be the place where heaven and earth sort of overlap. And one of the New Testament writers, Paul, said literally to the church, you are the temple of the Holy Spirit. So you have the garden of Eden where God dwelt with people, but then you have some sort of rupture and you have a temple, a physical temple, space where God dwelt with people.

There were rituals and priests and offerings you had to do, but then Jesus shows up and he's right here. Heaven is right here in a person, but just one person. And 2000 years ago in one little piece of land, but then Jesus looks at his disciples and he says, listen, the great gift I'm going to give you is my presence with you through my spirit, and you will become a temple space where heaven and earth overlap. And what you will do is you will remind everybody how great I am and how beautiful I am. And you will let them know I'm coming back.

Because the end of the story, little one, starts like, or starts like, the beginning of the story. It's almost exactly the same. God renews heaven and earth. He recreates it. He doesn't scrap it and start over.

What he does is he renews everything. And then the Bible ends with this beautiful picture of God dwelling with people in a temple that covers the whole of the earth. And so to your question, does God bring heaven to earth? Yes, he has. Yes, he is.

And yes, he will. And so we get to live in this beautiful picture where it's not all done yet. There's still, there's still room for Jesus to come back and finish the beautiful painting he started. But in a sense, when we participate in church life, what we're doing is we're giving a picture of what God is like in bringing heaven to earth.

I am living like that's true. I am displaying that to other people. It's this captivating, beautiful thing that people will be drawn to and we get to participate in. And this kid probably won't wonder this, but many of the adults listening might wonder this. Your explanation in the beginning was so helpful of heaven and earth, because I, like you, grew up in a context where we said, you know, heaven is away, where God is, and we're hoping to get there.

But people also might be thinking, okay, I love what you said about heaven and earth, made by God. And because of sin, there's like this separation. And so we start using this heaven language to talk about where is God and where does God break into us. But people also might be wondering, okay, the Bible talks a lot about heavens and earth, but also the Bible talks a lot about the world. And sometimes there's kind of seemingly contradictory things said about the world.

Sometimes it's you need to hate the world to really love God. Sometimes it's for God to love the world. So can you talk a little bit about, are these words the same, earth and worlds, and what's going on with the Bible on those things?

There is kind of one word for world, but it has three different meanings, depending on its usage.

Yeah. And there the world stands for the organized system of human autonomy and flesh, energized by powers and principalities that stands in opposition to the purposes of God.

We believe God's word is full of diversity, but it does not contradict itself. God isn't trying to confuse us. So when 1. John says we aren't supposed to love the world, but John 3 says God loves the world, we have enough theological background to say they must not mean quite the same thing by world. And then we look at the whole story of scripture, like Mike is doing, to see how these two uses go together.

If that means loving the people of the world, enjoying creation, absolutely. But if it means participation in or endorsement of a mode of life that stands in opposition to the purposes of God, well, then obviously I'm to be transformed instead of conformed to that pattern of life. And so discerning, that becomes the hard thing. It's much easier to judge and it's much easier to label. But we sit in this, I mean, you and I had a conversation weeks ago on the Holy Post podcast about Taylor Swift, and you were making the point that, yes, you can rip out individual lyrics and have reactions to those, but contextually you sift and sort them and you realize you just can't write the whole thing off and you just can't accept the whole thing uncritically.

And that's true, I think, with spiritual things as well. So one of the things that I love about your work is that you're doing that. Your posture is curious. The name of your podcast is perfect because I think Jesus people have nothing to fear from the truth wherever we find it. And Paul says this beautiful thing in 1 Corinthians, where the church is divided over human personalities.

Apollos is this eloquent speaker, we guess, and Paul wasn't very impressive in person. And Cephas, Peter, I mean, that dude walked with Jesus, man. And so the church was playing favorites, shockingly. And Paul sort of builds up to this argument where he says, all things are yours, guys, no matter if it's from Peter or Cephas or Paul, it's all yours. Wherever you find truth, goodness, and beauty, take it.

It's yours. And I just thought, wow, what a great posture to have towards the world. And that's why I love the title of your podcast. And I love you because we don't, and interrupt me here if I'm going off too much, but very often the American form of Christianity that I received and have been a purveyor of starts with being threatened and defensive. And we just want to say, well, what if we started with being curious and hospitable?

And yes, still discerning, absolutely. But I think the difference in terms of where you start, it leads to where you end up to a great degree. And so I love the posture that says, you know what, unless it explicitly is asking us to deny the Lordship of Jesus in some way, we can be curious about this and see where are the prophetic voices out in the world speaking to the church that we might not pay attention to because there aren't labeled Christian, you know?

That's why Hia was created. The pediatrician approved, super powered, chewable vitamin. Hia fills in the most common gaps in modern children's diets to provide the full body nourishment kids need with a yummy taste they love. Formulated with the help of nutritional experts, Hia is pressed with a blend of 12 organic fruits and veggies, then supercharged with 15 essential vitamins and minerals, including vitamin D, B12, C, zinc, folate, and many others, to help support immunity, energy, brain function, mood, concentration, teeth, bones, and more. Plus, it's non-GMO, vegan, dairy-free, allergy-free, gelatin-free, nut-free, and everything else you can imagine.

Hia is designed for kids 2 and up and sent straight to your door, so parents have one less thing to worry about. I don't have kids, but I have tasted Hia vitamins and they taste great. Plus, they come in a cute, reusable container. kids can decorate with stickers. I also recommend checking out their new kids probiotic and nighttime essentials.

We've worked out a special deal with Hia for their best-selling children's vitamin, where you can receive 50% off your first order. To claim this deal, you must go to hiahealth.com slash. curiously. This deal is not available on their regular website. Go to h-i-y-a-h-e-a-l-t-h dot com.

slash curiously, and get your kids the full body nourishment they need to grow into healthy adults. Yeah. Yeah. That's a great segue into the next thing. I wanted to ask you, which again, little kid not thinking this, but probably grownups listening thinking this, going, well, I appreciate that you said, okay, there's the way Jesus brings heaven to earth, brought heaven to earth.

There's the way we participate in that now. Then there's the final consummating bringing heaven to earth.

What does it look like for Christians to participate in bringing heaven to earth now, in practical ways that someone could say, oh yeah, that's something I do or could do. But also to ask, how would we know if we were creeping into the wrong ways of bringing heaven to earth? Because, as someone who studied a lot of history, people have really good intentions and then they end up in really way weird places. And especially for people, some of the people who are listening to Sunday school, to kids in their church, or they're teaching their own kids. And I'm just wondering, even for myself in my Sunday school, how do I talk about this in a way that makes them believe what you just said about the world is God's good creation fallen, but we get to participate in it.

There's things in here that are beautiful and faithful to do that aren't just quote, unquote Christian things. But also here's where we might go wrong if we are a little too confident in bringing heaven to earth ourselves.

Yes. We love. We love. First of all, the biggest thing is, unless it looks like Jesus crucified, incarnated, crucified, resurrected, and ascended, it's not Christian, no matter what it calls itself. So Michael Gorman, as you know, scholar, you know, has written extensively on the hymn that Paul uses in Philippians about how Jesus did not use the power and prerogatives that were his as God for his own advantage, but rather, and then there's a layered humiliation.

He took the form of a servant, taking on the very nature of a human, and then dying on the cross, right? The lowest of the lowest social sort of standing. And that act of his garnered the name Yahweh, the name that is above every name. And so that we experience the exaltation of Yahweh when we humble ourselves, the way that Jesus humbled himself. Heaven is expressed in the church as a social reality.

So all of Paul's lists where he talks about the virtues in Christ and the vices that we're to avoid are all social realities, meaning there isn't one of them that's named, that's just by yourself. So bringing heaven to earth looks like, right, hospitality. It looks like forgiveness and reconciliation and bearing with one another, all the one another statements, right? Confession. I mean, all of those, that is literally the picture of what heaven looks like when it's practiced in the church.

And what heaven doesn't look like are the old creation dynamics of hostility and division and accusation and labeling and demonizing. And so the test for me, if I have to break Jesus's commands or Jesus's example in order to fulfill Jesus's agenda, then I'm no longer bringing heaven to earth. I'm doing something else. And so for me, the Sermon on the Mount, Matthew 5 through 7, if I could give one piece of the Bible to store in my heart and wish it for everybody else, it would be that one. That let's oppose things that are opposing God and hurting and oppressing people.

But let's do so as we love our enemy, pray for those who persecute us, right? I mean, show goodness to the just and the unjust alike, so that we're perfect, like our Heavenly Father. So I just simply hold up the Sermon on the Mount and I say, if I can oppose something or stand against something, while still following the teachings and the example of Jesus, then I'm okay. There are some instances where I'm not able to. And those are places where I bow out because I'm too full of anger or condemnation or judgment.

And, as we know, the powers and principalities energize all that stuff and multiply it so that, in the name of Jesus, I'm actually pushing people away from Him. And it fits, because heaven, or, if we want to use the synonym, kingdom of God, is a social political reality that operates completely in an upside down manner compared to the social dynamics of the world. So all of the ways that identity is distorted and fractured, and labeled and hierarchied, all of those are to be undone in the social reality of the church. And when that happens, according to Paul, that is a monument, not only to the resurrection of Jesus, but to the defeat of the powers and principalities that energize division. And so, my goodness, all of a sudden, me getting along with that person in the third row is much more significant than, you know what I mean?

Like, then, well, I just don't like this person, so I'm going to find a new church. No, there's something happening there that, if we had the imagination to see, it, is really profoundly significant. Right? So anyway.

But I also imagine this kid has picked up in church that we're waiting for something too. How would you answer there, when is God going to do that?

And even somebody in the first century, Peter, had to address his church, or a series of churches, by saying, hey, some of you have heard that he's already come? No. And Peter gives an explanation for why we're still waiting. So I wish I knew. Peter does say one thing, though.

God is waiting so that as many people as possible can find out how awesome he is. And so I would just say this. We have lots of work in the meantime. We know that the story ends beautifully, that all the tears are going to be wiped away and all the sadness is going to be gone. We know that the story ends the way it begins, with God dwelling with human beings in a renewed earth.

Like, this. isn't us with wings in some floaty place. This is us doing human life, right? Without all of the sadness, oh, I can hardly wait for it. And the only instruction we're given by Jesus is be ready, be prepared.

And that doesn't mean worry about it, because this is good news for us. This is not something we're afraid of. This is something we can't wait to see. But it just simply means recognizing that all of human life is important. Everything that you do, from school to helping your parents, to whether or not you argue with your brother and sister, all of that matters, because God isn't trying to get you out of that.

He's trying to show his beauty in the midst of it. And so I wish I knew. I would tell you this, though. When you hear people say they think they know, I don't know that I would believe them, because Jesus himself said he didn't have an exact date, but that was something only God, the Father, knew. And you have, if you've been listening to the podcast, you know who that is.

But we've been finishing most of these with asking, okay, like you said, we've moved a little bit out of Kidville, which is good. This is a podcast for adults. But one thing that a lot of people have found helpful is for me to ask guests, what is the answer that you would give to a kid? that's not your biggest, longest, most thought-out answer if you spent a bunch of time with them? But how I tend to imagine it is, because this is how it typically happens in my Sunday school class, is we have five minutes before pickup, or we have 30 seconds before pickup, or there's a parent at the door, and a kid suddenly turns to me and says something wild, like, how is Jesus also God, and God?

the Father is his Father? And we're off on the races, and I don't have a ton of time to work through it. So what would your answer be to a kid whose parent is picking them up from Sunday school, and they turn to you and they say, does God bring heaven to earth? What would your short, accessible-to-a-kid answer be?

And so we get to be heaven-on-earth people in imitating Jesus while we're waiting for Jesus to return and finish the beautiful painting he started.

Those are such good questions. And thank you for taking this question really seriously with me. Oh, my.

I mentioned Seth. Seth is my mentor in the way of Jesus, because he teaches me how to be human. And the questions that he will ask are the most profound. And so I love, I love, I love what you're doing. And I love that these kids love it, too.

On the page that explained the line, your kingdom, come, to children, the author had written something like, God lives up in heaven, but he loves you so much that one day he'll take you to live with him there. This is such a good example of how we can go wrong theologically when we just don't tell the whole story, when we overemphasize one part over the other. Is it true and comforting that God loves us so much and that when we die, we will be with him? Yes. But that's not the whole story.

And it's not what Jesus teaches us to pray. Jesus teaches us to pray, your kingdom, come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. We aren't waiting to get plucked out of this world and taken somewhere else. We are waiting for something much more miraculous, for the kingdom of God to come here, for Christ to return and make all things new. And when we pray these words Jesus taught us to pray, we're not only asking for him to come back and make all things new, we're also opening ourselves up to participating in the kingdom coming to earth for God's will being done on earth as it is in heaven.

If you've never regularly prayed the Lord's prayer, consider praying it sometimes this week, and watch and see if you notice opportunities in your regular life to seek the kingdom on earth, to prepare a meal for a stranger, a moment that you can speak up for justice and truth, a word of kindness you can speak instead of harshness. God has given us the wonderful opportunity to prepare for his return by seeking these glimpses of the kingdom by the power of the Holy Spirit here and now.

Curiously, Caitlyn is a production of Holy Post Media, produced by Mike Strelow, editing by Seth Corvette, theme song by Phil Vischer. Be sure to follow us on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts, and leave a review so more people can discover thoughtful Christian commentary, plus cute kids, and never any butt news.