Why do we fight God in our heart?

That doesn't make any sense.

Dr. Barry Jones, thank you for joining me today.

We fight God in our hearts.

But this is also a good opportunity, I think, for us to just talk a little bit in language that not just a kid, but adults could understand of. what are we talking about when we talk about sin and the condition humans live under when it comes to sin? Because, again, part of what this kid is describing is not just, I discern, based on what adults tell me that I'm doing wrong things, but it feels like a struggle. And it feels like I'm not even wanting necessarily to do the bad things I'm doing. How should we talk about that theologically?

Yeah.

And what we find in that story is the fundamental break between God and humanity is a breakdown of trust, right? That God has provided this abundant provision. I mean, I love even the way the Hebrew describes it, when God says, eat, eat, and it literally is the repetition of this word. I've given you abundance for your enjoyment, for your pleasure, for your provision, with this one prohibition of eating, of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. And despite the abundance of provision and one prohibition in ways that in some sense defy our imagination, for the man, the woman, to be in that pristine condition in the garden and to choose to cross that one prohibition.

And yet what you find is, in the way the story is told, is the temptation is all about trusting in God. Has God, did God really say, and then really, can God really be trusted? And so what happens in this act of cosmic rebellion, this moment where they step out from under God's direction, God's provision, God's will for their lives, this break that occurs really is fundamentally a break of trusting in God, your will, your way. And so this then becomes God's great agenda for His people, in story after story, throughout the remainder of the scripture is the invitation into that deepening relationship of trust.

Can you talk a little bit about that experience that this kid is having that I'm guessing is not just coming from, okay, I feel myself wanting to do bad things or I see other people do bad things, but also this sense that I'm guessing this kid is a believer or he's looking around at other believers and going, well, why, when you are a believer, do you still fight God in your heart? Like, why is it still hard to follow God's will, God's way? Why is that still a challenge when I can imagine, especially for a young kid going, I thought some of the good news of this is I can follow God and I want to, and so I should just be able to.

I can solve this in my own resources, out of my own strength. And so, they sow fig leaves together to hide their nakedness. Again, that idea that the first impulse is, how do I fix this? in my own strength, in my own power, a trust in, a reliance upon oneself, rather than that idea of trust in and reliance upon God. And so, when we think about the doctrine of sin, we think about sin as a power that Paul will talk in the book of Romans, again, you alluded to Romans 7, Romans 6 and 7, this idea of our being under the power, the dominion of sin, not just wrong things we do, but sin as a ruling power in our lives.

And that part of the nature of the gospel, part of the saving worth of Jesus, is to free us from both what we might think of as a penalty of sin, that is, death, condemnation, but also to free us from the power of sin. And yet, what we also have to recognize is we have deeply ingrained within us the patterns of sin, right? We're born with a bent towards sin, and then we become really good at it through years of practice, right? These are deeply ingrained patterns in our lives, and then we are surrounded by the presence of sin. So, not only do we have the propensity to fight God in our hearts, but we participate in families and communities and societies that also have and perpetuate that tendency to fight God.

And so, even though the gospel frees us from the penalty of sin, from the power, the dominion of sin, we still have deeply ingrained within us the patterns of sin, and we're surrounded by the presence of sin, finding us pulled back to living as that person turned in upon ourselves. And I'd say oftentimes to people in our congregation, I think that if you will consider your most persistent struggles with sin, that you will find at the base of it is that idea of the person turned in upon themselves.

And so actually, what you're articulating to me is like, like you said earlier, this is a really powerful concept that is not just like a cudgel to wield against people when they do bad things. But without this, we do not understand how the world works. But when you say sin is a power, I think some people go, oh, that's not the way that I grew up hearing about sin.

And this concept of shalom, it's what you see in Genesis 1 and 2, the way things are supposed to be. But then, when you get the entrance of sin into the story, you have what Cornelius Plantica has referred to as the vandalism of shalom. Shalom is meant to be experienced in our peace, with wholeness, harmony, flourishing, with God, with one another, with ourselves and with the rest of creation. And now, because of the entrance of sin into the story, all of that comes apart. All of that is broken.

The vandalism of shalom. And I think it's easy for people to acknowledge the reality looking around at the world, that things are not the way they're supposed to be, right? The things are fundamentally broken. The challenge, then, for us becomes to recognize our own participation in that, right? Our own complicity in that.

And I think for me, part of what, again, gives that notion of sin such explanatory power is. not only do I observe that in the reality of the world around me, but I do observe it in myself to recognize, I have to acknowledge the reality that I fail to live up to my own highest standards. I fail to live up to my own highest ideals. As much as I want to, as much as I strive to, I fail to. And if I fail to live up to my own standards, my own highest ideals, isn't it the case, then that it seems rather apparent that I would fail to live up to the highest ideals, the highest standards of God.

But this notion of sin as power, again, I think sometimes many of us grew up with the idea, sin merely as those bad things that we do, right? The bad actions that we commit. And the conception of God's disposition towards that is. God is really mad about that. He's really angry because we broke the rule, because we broke his law.

And while there certainly is a dimension of that, I think there's a deeper notion of, we have broken shalom, right? We have violated the way things are supposed to be. And part of our understanding of why God hates sin is because He loves us, because He loves shalom, because of His desire for us. And even as I think about this podcast and dealing with the questions of children, it just brings me back to my own kids growing up. I have two young adult sons and a teenage daughter right now.

And thinking about the things that I learned as a father, watching them grow up. And when they would make mistakes, when they would do things that were wrong, that were rebellious, sometimes, right? That part of what grieved me was not merely, you've broken my rule. It really was that sense of, I want so much more for you. I am grieved because of my desire for you.

And I think that helps us understand part of what grieves the heart of God about the ways in which we are complicit in the vandalism of shalom is because He wants so much more for us. He hates sin because He loves us.

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This kid didn't quite ask this, but I imagine, you know, grownups listening are wondering, okay, I have some sense of an answer to why I fight God in my heart and why it's still hard, even if I have placed my faith in Christ. How do I stop? I mean, how do I, even if I'm not perfect, even if I'm still going to be fighting God in my heart, what does it look like to fight less or to, um, yeah, to allow God's will to be true in my life? when I, as this kid has, articulated, like, I want that. It just feels hard.

And I don't know how to do that other than, like, just try harder, which could be sometimes a good answer, but doesn't feel like a very incomplete, complete answer.

It is in fact, the way in which we are transformed, that ultimately, God's desire for us is that all of us would become more and more like the one who has saved us, that our, our character would be increasingly conformed to the character of Jesus.

It's something the Holy Spirit does in us.

I had an opportunity to go on sabbatical from the church where I serve as pastor, and I was feeling all this anxiety, walking away from, I mean, and I found myself going, what is wrong with you? You have three months off of work. Why are you so anxious? And I came across a little line from Dallas Willard in the biography, the wonderful biography of Dallas Willard from Gary Moon called Becoming Dallas Willard. And Dallas Willard has this line, he said, what you continue to worry about is the clearest indication of what you have yet to surrender to God.

And in some sense, that seems so obvious, right? So apparent, so sort of, well, yeah, of course. And yet, for me, at least, it spoke so profoundly to my experience, what you continue to worry about is the clearest indication of what you have yet to surrender to God. And that in this moment, in this experience of kind of walking away from the church for three months, I had to relinquish any illusion of control. And I had to ultimately engage in this sort of disciplined act of surrender.

And so I think part of that process of our turning away from sin and becoming more like Jesus isn't just dig a little deeper, try a little harder, get a little bit more willpower. It really is coming back to this disciplined act of surrender. And if I can, I'll share with you a specific practice that became part of my spiritual life, kind of through that sabbatical experience. It's a simple little prayer of surrender from Richard Foster. I came across this prayer years ago, and yet it then became this really lifeline for me in the midst of this experience.

And so a daily prayer that I would pray on my knees as soon as I roll out of bed in the morning, that says, today, O Lord, I yield myself to you. May your will be my delight today. May you have perfect sway in me. May your love be the pattern of my living. And this is where it really starts to mess with me a little bit.

I surrender to you my hopes, my dreams, my ambitions.

Do with them what you will, when you will, and as you will. I place into your loving care, my family, my friends, my future. Care for them, with a care that I can never give. I relinquish to you. And boy, here's where it really gets hard to pray.

I relinquish to you, my need for control, my craving for status, my fear of obscurity.

Eradicate the evil, purify the good, and establish your kingdom on earth for Jesus' sake. Amen. And it's one of those prayers that I can pray it as quickly as I just said it to you, but I can also spend 15 minutes on that particular prayer, just going through, line by line and word by word, the very beginning. Today, oh Lord, and I can sometimes camp out on today, or Lord, today, oh Lord, I yield myself to you. And that really is kind of what we're talking about is yielding ourself to God.

I got a ticket from a car wreck years ago, and the top of the ticket said, failure to yield. And I feel like that is like, you could just write that over the top of my life. For all of my struggles and all of my failures, ultimately, what it's about is a failure to yield. And so working my way through that disciplined act of surrender is such an important part of how we, I think, grow in the spiritual life. Not grinding it out, do more, try harder, but trust and surrender.

One last question before we get into what you would tell a kid. I could imagine someone hearing that and going, oh, yes, it is by grace, through faith alone. I believe that. I understand that. You also talked about this being disciplined.

And those things feel a little bit in conflict to me. Even someone listening, I can imagine. I mean, this would have been me maybe in high school if I had heard you say that. I would have said, well, there's not a lot of grace and freedom and faith. in a prayer, someone else wrote that you are regularly praying every day.

That feels like working hard, trying harder, doing better. So can you talk a little bit about, because, again, underneath this kid's question for an adult is, what does a life look like? that responds to this sense that I fight God in my heart? And on one hand, I want my response to that question to be, it is God's grace that allows me to be sanctified. And also, there's a sense of discipline that's involved in it.

And those two could be difficult to square together.

And yeah, well, Willard is kind of getting at with that. But it doesn't mean that we are merely passive. It simply means that we cannot transform ourselves. It means that what we can do is position ourselves before God in a way that allows Him to do what only He can do in and through us, right? That we find ourselves, and this is what the spiritual disciplines really are all about, is paying attention to God and opening ourselves up to His work.

So again, we shouldn't think about the spiritual disciplines primarily in terms of do more, try harder, transform yourself. But merely about this is a practice that I can engage, a rhythm that I can develop in my life, that positions me before God in such a way that I'm giving Him my attention. And I don't care if you're a kid or an adult, paying attention to much of anything these days is increasingly challenging, right? And yet at the heart of the spiritual life is paying attention to God, attending to the reality of His presence, and then availing ourselves to His power, opening ourselves up to His work. And so this is a practice whereby I open myself up to His work.

And so that's part of when I pray, I yield myself to You. I've got to do some work around that. Like, am I really ready to say that? And so, really working through those phrases, not merely in a rote kind of fashion, but actually engaging them, making those words my own yet again today, but ultimately not so that I can accomplish my own sanctification, my own transformation into Christlikeness, but ultimately so I can position myself before God, where my attention is fixated on Him, and I am open to receive and to allow Him to do the work that only He can do in me.

. I grew up certainly in a tradition, like I think you're alluding to, that was a little suspicious of praying written prayers. Now, what's interesting is we had no problem praying written prayers as long as we were singing them. We didn't always recognize the fact that the hymns that we were singing are in fact written prayers. But if you were to read, a written prayer, like that was like a big sort of no-no, right?

But the thing about that is both the sung prayers in our songs and hymns, as well as the prayers that we might find out of a book, oftentimes will give my heart language that I needed, that I couldn't have generated on my own, right? I would not have come up with these words. And yet how often I have found myself praying the words that someone else has crafted, that is exactly what I needed to pray. I needed to be discipled by the wisdom of the church's past to have the very words that I need to pray in my life today. So it gives me a training and a vocabulary for prayer that I wouldn't have arrived at left to my own devices.

And that's when the kid finally says something about the Trinity or something really personal. So imagine you're in a situation like that. You have only a minute to respond to the kind of aged kid that we could hear, who just said, why do we always fight God in our hearts? What would your kind of kid answer to them be?

Help me when I don't want what you want. Help me to want what you want.

That, at the end of the day, for us, it is a matter of bringing our hearts, our desires, our will to God and surrendering those to Him. God, I want your will. God, I want it in your way. God, I want it in your time.

Jones, so much for this.

Remember what is most true. Pay attention. The philosopher and novelist Iris Murdoch coined a definition of attention that I love. She wasn't a Christian, but she got interested in the idea of attention from a Christian, the philosopher Simone Weil. Murdoch says that attention is a just and loving gaze.

Both Murdoch and Weil thought that what we pay attention to is one of the most important things about us, that it is a moral question. What I choose to pay attention to, to look at justly and lovingly, shapes who I am. It's why I'm making this podcast, actually. Because, while right doctrine and good theology aren't everything, I believe it matters deeply what we are paying attention to. And I want us to pay attention to God, a right idea of God.

And to do that, we need help untangling our twisted and distorted ideas about God. We need help seeing, rightly, seeing God truly and with love. As we learn theology in these episodes, that's my hope, that we would pay better attention to the God who responds to all that fighting we do in our hearts with grace, forgiveness, and love. Curiously, Caitlin is a production of Holy Post Media, Produced by Mike Strelow, Editing by Seth Corvette, Theme song by Phil Vischer. Be sure to follow us on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts and leave a review so more people can discover thoughtful Christian commentary, plus cute kids, and never any butt news.