Live from CrimeCon 2024 with Payne Lindsey, Dennis Cooper, and Liam Luxon

But this isn't his story, it's a human story, one that I've become entangled with.

Sometimes shows start slow and steady, then next thing you know, they're reaching millions of listeners and making a real difference. And often they gain momentum overnight. So what's the secret?

Is it hard work? Sheer luck, maybe some of both. Well, our team recently attended Crimecon 2024 in Nashville, and I sat down with Payne Lindsay of Up and Vanished, Dennis Cooper of Culpable and Liam Luxon of Status Untraced.

And they talked about their experience as first-time hosts who created a number one show, and what they share might surprise you. Enjoy the conversation.

But I don't think you could spend more than three days in here without completely losing your mind. No other than that. It's beautiful. They did a great job.

Right, Mike, Right, yeah.

Liam, Why don't you take a second to introduce yourself and the show?

He wasn't just like a nomadic traveler, though he was an extremely trained survivalist. One of the last things he ever said was I should be back mid-September, if I'm not back by then. Don't come looking for me. And then disappeared.

Soon afterwards, like you could call him. The lead suspect was arrested and three weeks spent three weeks in jail, and about three days before he was released was found hanging in his jail cell. And that was, yeah, that's kind of the that's the baseline of the story.

We did a second season out of a small town, Brown County, Ohio. We covered the case of a young, pregnant mother of one who was killed while driving on the highway headed to her father's birthday. And from there, we've launched our case review series, where we are covering more cases in less episodes, so just doing one episode per case. And then I'm in the middle of working on season three of Culpable right now.

It's just the suspense of not knowing, and to me, that bothers me and it gets this little curiosity bug in my brain going. And so for me, it's always been about solving a mystery and telling that story. And so in 2016, when I made Up and Vanish Season 1, I took a new approach. And I made a podcast where I was going to personally go investigate an unsolved missing persons case, which at the time I had no real business doing. And that's really ultimately why I'm here today was just kind of taking a leap out of my comfort zone. And, you know, for those who don't know me personally, or like, what would maybe drive me? It never really is about the nitty-gritty, true crime parts of it.

It's not about the forensics, it's not about. These are all interesting things to me, but to me, it's about who the hell did it or what happened. And like, that part of it drives me. And as I've kind of grown into my shoes a little bit more. I've just tried to push the envelope more there. Because I feel like it's more authentic to me and it's what I have more control over.

If there's a suspect to a murder case and I know where they live, well, I could go knock on their door. And so that's kind of where I'm at. But true crime is, I think, a little bit different to everybody. But I think at the end of the day, I think that people are curious, they want to know why people do fucked-up shit, and they want to learn from it. And it's okay to have a little bit of a morbid curiosity. I think if you don't have that, then maybe you're one of the people who's killing people out here.

He was this guy that gave up everything he owned and already lived all these crazy, adventurous lives of being, you know, crossing the Himalayas in flip-flops, or becoming a monk, or living with indigenous tribes.

I guess it still is, too, yeah.

Great re-watch, Oh so good, it's so good. And then when I met my wife, she was an even bigger true crime fan than I was. So then, all of a sudden, I went from watching sports at nighttime to we'd fall asleep with forensic files on the TV. Because, you know, it's just if that's what you want to watch.

So it's just, I've just always been around and always had an interest, but didn't anticipate doing a podcast about it. But it's like you both hit on like, you find that story and your heart's just in it. And you're just so, you know, you're just so wrapped up in it. And just want to get answers like, just want to make sense of this problem. Like Payne said, I think we all have a little bit of a problem solver in us and want to fix injustices and things that we see wrong. So, yeah, you know, doing that was really cool because it was something I think I always envisioned, was like being a creative. And maybe even specifically in the true crime space.

But I didn't put in the work to do it, I didn't go to school for it, I didn't like, try to go make it happen.

How did they even, like, put together the resources to do that at all? And that puzzled me, and so, actually, I never even said this before. But early on, you know, I used to watch ID Channel 2 and there were some shows that, no offense, I thought were pretty trash. But I still watched them and kind of liked them. And I was like, maybe I should email, like some of the producers of this, not telling them that their show is trash? But more like, Hey, you know, can I work on this show? or I don't know how could I get involved?

No response. And then I was on a road trip with my friend to Louisville, actually. And Serial had just came out and the first five episodes of the podcast Serial were out. And he's like, Dude, you've got to listen to this show, and I'm like, Okay, what is it? And he says, audio shows like, Man, I don't like, like, audio radio shit.

He's like, just trust me. And so we binged it on the way up there, got the episode. Five were there for like three days, and then a new one had come out and we got to binge that on the way back. And then the rest was just me at my house waiting for Sarah Koenig to upload that last one.

And, you know, culmination of events. A few months later, I kind of went back to the drawing board on Okay, if I wanted to make a true crime show, what's my entry point? And I was like, you know what? I never imagined how like, enthralled and compelled I could be by an audio show. The way that serial season one did for me. And so it told me that that was possible. Thankfully, I've been like an editor of video stuff for a majority of my life.

And so I just had the crazy idea of, you know what fuck it? I'm going to go find a case in my home state and go put together a true crime podcast about it. And I don't know what it should sound like, and I'm just going to make it sound like, I guess whatever. I would want to listen to as someone who didn't like listening to audio shows, right? And that was just the basic premise, and then, you know, that evolved over time, but that's how I got into it.

You're most likely doing something when you're listening to a podcast, you're driving, you're, you know, working, you're doing something typically. So, like, how can you put that person or put yourself in their head? So they're in the same adventure, kind of as you are, but you're with it.

And the same way that you read a book, and sometimes you add context to the pages, I think, adding that audio, you get to hear all of these interviews and things like that. But you actually get to feel like you're there with them in a way that you're not watching it on TV, you're kind of there with them. So that was kind of one of the things that made us lean back into it while creating the podcast itself. That's not necessarily why I chose a podcast. I think I chose a podcast because of circumstances. The same way that I fell into doing this in the first place.

Didn't exist. Seeing them now, I'm just like, Ha ha ha ha, lucky bastards. Because there was just not any sort of guidance online for how to get started, but it turns out it was just very simple.

It was just a microphone and something to record into, and I was like, Oh duh. But now they make it all neat and it looks cooler, I know, right?

I still vividly remember binging it and it got me into it. It was the first like, Oh, this is cool. I didn't even know that. They did these types of stories, the ones I'm watching late at night, they do these in audio only. I'm interested in that.

That's cool. And then what was it a year later, when the first season of Up and Vanish came out?

Tell us a little bit more about that, like, what is that process like for you of like, trying something new while also not being like an expert coming into it?

And I'm like, I know, but I think that part of podcasting is special and like is especially in the true crime genre. Feeling like you're at the edge of the seat, or right there with, like an investigative journalist who, you know. It feels like you're a part of it in a way that you can't really recreate many other places.

I'm going to use this as just a blanket blueprint for how I would do a podcast, go do my own, and maybe that's my proof of concept. To sell to the money guy that, hey, pick me, I want to do one of those ID channel shows that I hate, you know?

I think that sums up the nature of this industry generally. What do you think?

After I listened to serial, it was on my bucket list, right? I was like, I want to do that someday. And like I said, I give a lot of credit to you because listening to you, I mean, Sarah Koenig is Sarah Koenig.

She's kind of a big deal in this space.

But you, on the other hand, getting into it, were just an amateur.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it didn't really make sense at the same time to even be trying it. Like, I shouldn't have been the one doing it right. But I found something I loved. You get in the weeds of it and all of a sudden you realize, like, Wait, actually, I'm enjoying this.

Like, this is the most fun I've ever had doing work before, and the most meaning that I've put into work.

I got to get locked into the edit. Or is it more story-driven and like wrestling internally with you know what makes the cut? How much do I put into, you know, my own bias or thought process? Like, what are the things that are kind of stressing you or keeping you up at night?

Like, you know, why would this person do this if this is what happened? And how do I bypass the obvious? Fuck you, I don't want to talk to you. How do I get there? Because if I can't figure out a way to do that, then I'm just retelling a horrible tragedy, right?

And I don't have any genuine interest in doing that at all, and so if I ever feel like that's all I can do, then I'm probably out.

So if I'm going to go cover this and really do it, or if it's going to sound like that, then I'd rather get better. Sleep at night, knowing that I really am doing that, and you can think, whatever, if I really am or not, or if you would have done it differently, that's fine, but I go to sleep at night knowing that this shit's fucking hard. And I did all that I could, and I will learn from that and get better the next day.

But I really want to find the bad guy because that's what the family's telling me.

But was finding a way to accurately tell the story and the findings while also honoring Justin's legacy. That was like, I constantly like, I would go to. I'd be like, Am I doing a good job of that? Always? Because that, for me, was the thing that I constantly was thinking about. It's simple and sweet, honestly.

You don't just like, say, like, day one I got to figure it out and then day 365 still be in that same mindset, right? You fucked up if that's the case.

You got to be constantly like, Okay, reshaping, re-evolving, look in the mirror. How would they perceive this? I mean, you have a lot of experience with that.

For me, it's usually more like beating myself up, like, damn, I should have asked them that question earlier. Or, like, you know, did I sound like an idiot when I said the wrong name earlier? Like, really stupid stuff like that is honestly what I get hung up on. It's kind of weird.

But no, for the most part. Like, I enjoy what I do, and now where I'm at, like, it's just so much more of a breeze. It's heavy. At times. It can be taxing investing in a case. But like, compared to making season one, I didn't know what the fuck I was doing.

I didn't have the resources I have now, like I probably shaved years off my life working season one.

Yeah, but no, like, now it's, you know, I got a good team, good support system.

I've matured into the role, so, I mean, not, truthfully, not a lot keeps me up at night now.

Yeah.

Right, and so I think that's person to person. For me. The easiest way to always kind of just stay in a straight line is remembering one thing. Only. There's prongs to it, but one main thing. There's a family out there who either doesn't know what happened to their loved one.

Knows just this information or somebody murdered them and they want to find out what happened. I think as long as I'm not breaking any laws and they feel okay about what I'm doing, then for the most part, generally speaking, all the other stuff I add is just my own two cents and my own opinion and my own moral compass. But staying on that is where I start.

If they're upset with me, then I probably did something wrong, and you might think that too. But if I'm leading with that, then we can take the risk that we might need to take to get to the answers. I mean, usually if a family is at a point in an unsolved case of one of their loved ones. And they're willing to make a true crime podcast about it.

Then they're already at the point where they're willing to take that risk. So I look at that as a responsibility of, like, okay, am I just like one of those trope true crime podcasts? Or do they actually think that I can help?

And what am I going to do to prove that to be true? Or how hard? Am I going to push myself to make it as true as I can? Within the means of my own control, right?

Do that. To me, that's the social construct, like the contract that we sign with them when we start doing a case like this.

We're going to put everything we can into figuring out what you haven't been able to figure out yet.

Because why do they think that is there something to that? And as long as I'm listening and communicating?

If any of us are right and get somewhere, then we already forgot about that time when we were confused. The whole thing is confusing. That's why we're here in the first place.

But we can do our best and we can be compassionate and try to understand who the victim was. And that's always been at the center of what I wanted to do with Culpable. A lot of what started that was a conversation with the mom.

And just my heart went out for her and everything she'd done for five years. Just like doing everything in her power to try to get justice for her son. And more than anything, even more than justice. Just get answers, like you said, the not having answers. I'm working on a case right now.

And John, you're familiar with this where this girl doesn't even know the victim and is just helping out. Because every year she'd see at the anniversary, this post about this kid that died in her hometown.

And flash forward years later, and she has a young child who dies with a babysitter. It turned out to just be some virus. But for months, they didn't have answers to that, and she said that just completely changed her perspective of his case.

And was like, I want to help this family any way I can. And I was like, Heck, I do too. Now that she just said that, like, Holy cow, that's tough.

Losing a child, and that's what puts it into perspective, that's what it must feel like. And then, after two months, they haven't had answers for 25 years to their son's death.

So I was just refreshed on that recently after meeting with them and talking about that. So yeah, the family's got to be at the center of it all, and obviously even more central is the victim.

It's the person who is spearheading some sort of.

Because it's difficult, not everyone can do that at the same time. But they're always going to be solely focused on justice for that person, and so you have to learn from them.

And stay closely tied to that because you didn't come out of the womb naturally. Feeling that way, you can develop that compassion and empathy for the situation, but it can never match what they're feeling.

And so I just wanted to add that whoever that person is in their life or persons and aligning with that, because they don't have any other motive other than finding the truth. And if you stick to that, I think that the rest you can navigate if you're just not a shitty person.

And you're actually considering what others may be thinking and feeling about what you're doing.

And he's like, the not knowing is the hardest part. He's like, If I know my friend is dead, at least I can start mourning. But if you don't know, am I giving up on him? I don't know. It's a piece that is always constantly running around.

So for me, the answers in finding that is the guide.

How do you process their grief and where they're at? While also still understanding that you're trying to learn something in your own discovery process? How do you balance those two things?

Right, and that's what I do. I just kind of just shut up. And once maybe the tone of the room has changed a little bit, I'll shift it to a rational, realistic, positive, small step.

That we can all take together that goes in a direction so we don't feel like we're absolutely helpless. That I actually truly believe in, but I'm not necessarily there to console them, I'm there to listen and understand.

So I can take that information. They always know that they can call me and I'm always going to listen. But most of the time, that's what they want. They want someone to hear them out.

That's why they're here, They're here to listen to me. The cops aren't listening. My family's tired of hearing me say this. Well, I'm all ears.

And I think that is really at the core, that's it, and with every person and situation, there's a lot of nuance to that. But, put quite simply, that's what I do is listen.

And that's what you should be doing. It's not the Payne-Lindsay show. It's like, holy shit, he's unpacking traumatic events and I'm just here.

I'm here, listening.

We had done a lot of conversations about who he was understanding Justin before we ever really got into.

It always comes down to what is actually there to learn immediately from it, right? But yeah, it's listening and understanding and learning who the person is. And to be honest, the reason I did the show in the first place is because I was fascinated in Justin.

It's okay to show that, I think that builds trust.

I only really need to spend an hour with them, but this is the family, so I'm going to go spend four hours with them. When I went into this, that's the mindset I had.

You talk to them once and then you go hit the ground and figure out the next thing.

Ideally, I'd like to shed a tear with them at some point.

Time and time, and time again, where families want to protect their kid.

Typically, they don't want to talk about how rough their life was, they want to paint it in a different way. I totally understand that. But the longer you spend with them, the more open, the more trusting they are to talk about and get real with you. And you worked on a case with me, you know what I'm talking about, where we was pulling teeth to get answers out.

That's all you want to say about their life. You're awfully quiet, and then over time those walls start to come down. You're like, Oh so, they were addicted to drugs. That's interesting.

Surprised you didn't say that when we first met?

It's like, I'm sitting across from a human being. You know? Maybe they are related to the victim, maybe they are somebody who knows something, maybe they're a potential suspect, but at the end of the day, they're a human.

And I have to be able to learn more about what they could potentially be bringing to this story.

So you've all had very successful shows from an outside looking in perspective, right? Whether it's ranking, number of, you know, millions of downloads, you know, whatever it would be. But I'm curious from each of you, like, what would you point to as the benchmark of success?

But then, you know, the creative bone in my body and the childhood dreams. Part of me was like, Well, I'm not done yet. And so I had a like, another sort of, you know, big like, revelatory moment. Last year, when I was making a new podcast that's out now, called High Strange. I took a little pivot and I did an eight-part series investigating the UFO phenomenon from like a real objective.

Non-tinfoil hat standpoint. And I was sitting there and at my house in like this studio that I have in there and I was playing it. And I just, I stopped and I go, Wow. I was like, You know what's crazy? This is my favorite place. This moment right here is outside of all of the good that comes with telling a true crime story and trying to find out what happened and bring justice.

As a creator, this is it to be able to do this. However, I kind of want to to a degree and it be my job and be able to keep pushing myself and be allowed to do that. And like, as a kid, that's that was the dream, like I felt like throughout my whole career as a creator. It's like all I ever was doing was begging people to take a chance on me, right? And so in that moment, I realized that, man, it's not about all of the accolades.

Those are cool, those are fun. It's like, was it well-received? Did people respond to this? Do you feel re-inspired by your own work?

So I think your benchmark for success is a thing that you create for yourself that can evolve over time. And you know, mine's continually evolving, and I think it'll be different the next time you ask me. But, you know, just recent recollection that that was the moment I had where I was like, man, I just. I want to be able to keep doing this. Like to be able to go to Alaska, which is not cheap and not easy. And go. Try to find out what happened to a missing person that is a like, not everyone can do that. That to me is fucking cool, and so I'm cool with that.

And I'm not going to lose sight of how special that is and how fortunate I am to do that and try not to squander that.

So I think, and in the future, I'm hoping that other people will. I personally find Justin himself to be inspiring and I hope other people will end up finding the same thing because I think Justin. From all the conversations that I had with friends and family, his goal was to leave people and like to inspire people to go do what they loved and to just follow that. Whatever it is, and I hope that translates the same way it did to me as it does for other people through the show. So that would be a sign of success for me.

I think that's my benchmark.