Billy Corgan And The Songs That Inspired Him

Hey, recently I had a really nice conversation with Billy Corgan. Always been a fan. I admire his work. And I did this as part of my Words and Music series that aired on SXM's Team Coco Radio Channel 106.

Fall is here, hear the yell, back to school, ring the bell, brand new shoes, walk in blues, climb the fence, books and pens. I can tell that we are gonna be friends. Yes, I can tell that we are gonna be friends.

I wanna start with this is a nice memory I have. Billy and I think about this sometimes because I think we both hit the scene around the same time, and when I mean, hit the scene. I don't think anyone's said that in 30 years, maybe 40, so I apologize, but 1993 was when I started doing my late night show. I think that's when smashing pumpkins sort of show up on the is that correct 93??

To the general world, yes.

Yes to the general public is what I meant, yes.

That's when people were like, Oh, you're here.

You're here now. Yes, I was around before 93..

Me too.

I had this crazy year or two at the start of my show. It was very rocky and we were doing a lot of weird stuff and coverage was. People were not happy with what I was doing. And then I was invited to go to the premiere of Howard Stern's private parts. So I went because that was one of those things where you go, you've been asked to go to this huge media event and you go. And I went. But remembered thinking, I don't know, do I belong here? should I be here? And there's this. Everybody in the world is there and we're all packed into this crazy situation. And I think the next thing I know Marilyn Manson is in my face. Maybe doing a bit, maybe not. Trying to get me to drink out of a chalice of something that looked evil, it was all very weird.

Do you remember who he was with?

I don't.

Jenna Jameson.

Oh, that's right. oh right. okay, well, your memory's better than mine. I think I was more focused on what's in that chalice than who's he with. But I was feeling really uncomfortable, in kind of almost a high school way, like, I don't belong here. I wish I wasn't here right now.

It sounds like you're recounting the lyrics for Creep by Radiohead.

Yes, I am.

Well, I was a fan, so that helps.

But what I recall is everyone else was being so performative and self-conscious, trying to outdo each other in some spectacular way. That would get attention. And you just cut over and in a very midwestern, nice way, said hi to me and established a bond. And every now and then that pops into my head as you sort of coming out of the fog as a nice, decent person. Oh, thank you and being nice to me.

I have a similar story from Jimmy Fallon, where I didn't realize it. But the show that we played on with 98, Cameron Diaz was the host. That was Jimmy's first ever SNL. And he said he was super nervous. And he said it was the Pumpkins, calming him down backstage and loosening him up and making him feel comfortable, that allowed his debut to be a success. I had no idea.

Right? But it's like, I'm now realizing that you're like a life coach.

I've been accused.

You were, you know what if you're in the background of every key performer's moment in their life? Just calming down? I wouldn't.

Honestly, I wouldn't mind it. Yeah, I'm just I'm very. I don't know if there's a moral, a moral, a moral tale or a morality tale in there, but I certainly part of it is.

Didn't you have his poster on your wall as a kid?

All I remember was some Mandarin like character who looked like he was on some life extension technology. You know, like something out of I don't know Dune. Yeah, yeah, you know what I mean?

Yeah, sure, we encourage it.

And I'm like, I don't give a shit, like, you know what I mean, like, it's a nice person. It's very Midwest, like you said, and it's like, I don't know.

So yeah, that's a very I guess there's. I've been looking forward to talking to you, not just because I'm a big fan of your work and I really love to talk about music. That I do feel that your trajectory, which I find amazingly cool, I also. And now it sounds like I'm complimenting myself, which I don't. I did not intend, but I relate to a lot of what you've done, I understand it, it makes sense to me.

Thank you, you know, there is, I guess, one exception to what I'm about to say. But you're the only person who's ever, ever. Let me sit on the couch and talk of all the shows I've been on, and I've been on them all. No one ever sat me on the couch and talk. And invariably someone in your world. You'd be watching some late show and you're watching some vacuous actor tell some very unfunny story. And everybody's laughing like, they're all high on oxygen. And somebody turns to me and kind of slaps me and goes, Why don't they ever let you talk?

I remember I didn't ask you, just charged over and you sat and you, we had security.

I remember I was wearing leather gloves and you were like, Why are you wearing leather gloves? and I gave you some stupid answer.

Well, I was, you know, it's like you took the bait, right?

Yes, I wore the leather gloves on purpose, and you're like, why are you wearing leather gloves? and it's like, funny, you should ask.

And then we were off and running. Uh, well, let's start, you know? First of all, I want to start in the present. Because you have this new album, Uh, Autumn, and I was listening to it today and it's I. What I love is, you orchestrate your music, I don't know.

I'm not we call it that, too, actually.

Yeah, you orchestrate it really, uh, really beautifully, and you can tell that there's a lot of, uh, almost like, classical thought that goes into it.

No training, by the way, no training, none, zero, so it's like a, it's like a, how is that possible?

I don't understand.

The the. The great story I like to tell is when I was very young, it was tested as being gifted in music. You know? And, uh, they called my father, and he was a musician, and said, Your son's probably a musical savant, a seven years old or something. And so a week later, they gave me a piece of paper, told me to circle the instrument that I wanted to play and that I needed instruction. And I went home and my father saw the cost and ripped up the paper and threw it in. The musical life up to that point, oh wow, so somebody recognized early on that I had some kind of, do you remember what instrument?

You circled.

Saxophone.

Maybe your dad did you a favor?

I had a, I had a. I had a. Oh no, he'd be touring with Sade right now. No, it gets better.

It's better.

I had a step family, um, uh, German and Polish, and uh, and the Polish uncle, uncle Henry, uh. When he found out that I wanted to play guitar when I was 14, he literally pulled me aside and said, There's no future in the guitar. What you want to play is the accordion, you'll always have a job. And you know, when you're having that conversation, like, is this real? is he really trying to convince me to play the accordion?

I think I can top that with an even more absurd story, which is I get the late night show in, Uh, April of 93.

He meant it back when people actually watch late night.

Yeah, exactly, I know, so it was, uh, but he was saying, I'll never forget, he said. You can as a lawyer, you can be a performer in front of the judge, but you're also writing your own scripts when you prepare a case. Which I'm like, No, I am not going to now call NBC and say this isn't happening. I'm going to imagine that conversation going to law school.

They would have said, Fine, we'll get some other idiot who ran the network back then.

Uh, it was a guy named Bob Wright, and I think he actually took a call from my uncle. That's true also is that my uncle also called Bob Wright and said, What do you do? Because? And then here's the connection.

Oh my goodness.

So he got through and they they said that Conan's uncle's on the line and wants to talk to you. And so Bob Wright picked it up and he was like, What are you? What are we doing here? I mean, you went to the cross, I went to the cross, this is. Is this the right thing for him?

That's amazing.

Yeah, but he was right.

I should have done it. It's so it's almost sounds invented, but it's that's why it's so good.

No, no, that is a very true story. Um, but here's what's amazing to me. This is a Uh, Autumn has 33 songs on it. And another career suicide. I was told, No, I mean, I was, I'm not joking.

Yeah, without being political, which is hard to do these days, I think the culture is sick and counterintuitive to the human experience. And so I've just made a decision, I'm going to do whatever I think is right for what I do, which is make music.

Yeah, just a little.

But why, like, I can't, I can't wrap my head around it, emotionally or intellectually.

It reminds me of when the government is paying people to destroy crops in order to stabilize the price.

That's, that's, that's some of the they get into kind of scarcity arguments, right? Like, less is more, and it's like, No, how about? I'm going to be dead soon, and I'd rather leave my kids more songs than less, like, let's start there.

Well, one of the things that fascinates me is when you, as we said in 93, when smashing pumpkins arrives, and you're killing it. And you and you. I've heard you talk about these years, there's all this success, and yet what you're feeling around you is negativity.

Oh, it's horrible.

And I, you know, and I, I heard you, um, I heard you talking to Howard about it. You were talking about all the negative negativity you were getting when you guys were the band? And I kept thinking, was this real negativity you were hearing? Or was this was some of it real? And some of it coming from your experience growing up?

A bit of both, yeah, so let's take the part that's real. And it's something that I didn't understand then, but I think most people would understand now because it's something that's often talked about in our world. We use culture like a football now.

You know what it is? It's strange, it's the either or that I never understand, which is, I mean. It goes back to the early days of Like Beatles or Stones, Jack Parr or Johnny Carson.

Yeah, remember that argument.

Yes, yes, Jack Parr was the host of the Tonight show before. Johnny and I'm dating myself, but no, no, um, who better to date and I but I? But I would say, like, before, you know, there was a Jack. Parr was more erudite and more, you know, Wittier, and Carson's more of a clown.

That's what I'm saying, so that that is real. And it persists in its own form today. The imagined part was just seeing stuff that's, you know, I think it's like something out of an old Hollywood musical. I imagined what success would look like. And when I got there, whatever that Disneyland ride was like, I actually arrived. Like, there's me and you standing there at the private parts premiere.

Right, right.

There's a sort of level of dispossession. So if you're not secure in yourself, or you don't know kind of what the point is, it's easy to get lost in it. Because there's not, you're not going to get a lot of confirmation. The culture is not designed for that. And the systems of you being in the network system, me being in the major label system, those are rapacious systems that assume that you're not going to last.

More than happy? Yes, more than happy to do it.

And you and I don't want to put thoughts in your head, but I'm assuming you're aware of that, right? Oh, of course, you know that there's somebody standing on the other side of the wall, waiting.

Here's what's nice, is that? And this is the where I'm going with all this. Is that what I have found in in my career? Uh, is that, you know? I just turned 60, like a week ago, and I'm happier than I was in my twenties and thirties. Because I feel like I've. I've gotten to a contented place where I know what I want to make, I know what I like to do, and I know how I like to do it, and I like to make it. On a on like this, for example, it's a smaller scale, but I really enjoy it and it's meaningful to me and the same thing with some of the other projects I'm doing.

It's worth noting that, for most of human history, that was the condition of people in the arts. Whether you were a traveling bard or you were the guy that they'd hire to come tell jokes at the wedding or whatever. That was most of human life, the 20th century brought on the mechanization. And of course, you know, it rewards people like us to say, Hey, you can climb up this magical escalator and make a lot of money and reach all these people. So it's very tempting. And really, there aren't many comparable games at that time.

Oh, uh, I experienced it. I back in the early days, the, you know, one or two big critics said, Nope, this isn't it.

And you host some Oscars too, am I do I remember? What's that? Can you host some Oscars or some Grammys?

Who me? Yeah, I did Emmys, I hosted the Emmys.

I remember that, Um, I imagine you got it, you read that review too, right, you know?

Yeah, but I mean, this was even at the very beginning, uh, when I was just starting out, it was you. There were gatekeepers who told you whether this show was worth your time or not, and it had a lot of power. And as we know now, there is no such thing. There's a lot of opinions, but there's not one opinion that that can shut you down.

I just love they all killed themselves, they put themselves out of business because with clickbait world, they couldn't help themselves.

Right?

They just had to get snarkier and dumber to keep up.

Right, you know?

And, uh, and you saw its influence even on the Old Guard, the New York Times and stuff like. They just couldn't help themselves, like they ended up going in that. Um, obviously, even politically, uh, particularly on the political side. So I, I just love that. They've just blown themselves up. But this is just really funny because at the end of the day, they're still commenting on stuff, people getting stuff done, yep.

I've thought about this, I've thought about how. I'm very lucky that the internet didn't exist when I was launching back in 93. Because I don't think, you know, I had enough trouble as it was, but I think I would have gone quite mad if I, if I was. I mean, in terms of feedback, in terms of feedback, I mean, there would have been a good part of it. Which is, I would have heard from people who I later met, younger people who are, you know, I think you would have.

Done quite well, well, I would have culture, I guess it's not about youth, but I'm saying, let's say the way you were being then. Yeah, sorry, I'm being a bit of fan boy. But if you could take 94 you and pluck you into this world, I think you would fit quite well into this world.

Okay, well, I think I would have your memeable is what I'm trying to say. Thank you, thank you. That's all I wanted.

I learned that lesson, I learned that lesson. Um, my first mistake with the internet was. I was like, great, there's this new feedback loop, right? I'm going to empower the fan in quotations so we can have this different type of relationship.

Right?

They want you up on that mountain and they want you to play whatever character they think you're playing. Moses or something, um, bald, angry guy or something. So, um, I learned really fast, like, No, you do not, they do, you know? It's like when people pull you aside, when you make some money and say, you know, don't get too friendly with the help. It's the same thing. I, I, I, I used to take fans out to breakfast and stuff.

So I I, it's funny you mentioned that because I had a friend. I have a friend who went to see a famous Andy Kaufman show, and afterwards, Andy Kaufman invited everybody out. And there were buses outside and so he got on the bus. And then he said. It just kept going all night and the crowd kept getting smaller and smaller. Because Andy would say, Now meet me at the hair, and then now meet me here, and now meet me there. And he said, at the end, it was there on Coney Island, I think, and he said it was Andy Kaufman. And like two other people, and my friend Rodman, and and the sun was coming up, and I love that, I love that.

And I'd learned to not read comments. And my partner's a lot younger than I am, she's 26 years younger than I am. So then when we started being together and it became very public that we were together once we were having a child. She's from that generation that would, of course, go read comments because that's the world she grew up in. Yeah, you read what people say.

Reading this stuff.

Oh, yeah, yeah, I had to hear about it, she was going on my fan sites reading.

Um, I'm just going to interject to say, she came with you and she's, uh, sitting in the room outside and she is stunningly beautiful.

Thank you.

She's, so, I don't know. This is again proof that people on the internet are insane. Yeah, that is one of the more attractive women I've seen in a while. You're like, I don't like her.

Yeah, yeah, I remember, um, when, uh, Curt and Courtney were together, I went to visit Courtney at some hotel. And she was obsessed because she'd seen some fan comment on the internet and the fan comment said. But she isn't even pretty like that sort of explained everything, you know, she was, so she was obsessed with this idea of like, but she isn't pretty. Like. That's that was the defining characteristic about why did he marry her.

So, um, what's the thing of? You know? I could think the late night audience size was about 350 people in that studio audience at Rockefeller Center, 349 could be deliriously happy. And I could immediately find the one person who wasn't laughing. And I think it's quite common, which is what is that person's problem? You know, I learned a long time ago, you just, first of all, you don't know like they may. And I've had a couple of occasions where someone who didn't was not that demonstrative in a concert or at a show or something that I was doing.

I've had the same thing where it's a waste of time, I see everything oddly so, and I've had it. Where people will come back, somebody I know and it will be with a partner. And I'll. And I'll say to the guy you didn't seem to have a good time, and the guy's like, What are you talking about? I like, have every album you've ever made.

Well, that's. I went to. My daughter, asked me to take her to Coachella last summer, and so I did.

Oh, there was a mistake.

Actually, it was, it was. It was really fascinating, but we were watching.

Were you wearing an Indian headdress?

I was wearing a cowboy, chaps and nothing else, it was just it's it's madness, it's madness. But I really enjoyed it and I got exposed to a lot of music and a lot of flesh that I would never have seen before. But what was amazing is I remembered someone watched me watching a band that I really liked.

You know that theory that audiences are better in the dark because they're more likely to be demonstrative. Do you know that theory?

I didn't know that.

Yeah, some people, cause we, we, we use a lot of backlight, very rock and roll. So the audience is usually pretty well lit. And people will pull me aside and say, you know, the audience would be more into the show. If you didn't have light on them. Cause they can, they, they can, they can be themselves in the dark or something, it's just so strange.

But I remember when I inherited the Late Night Show, they told me that Dave Letterman liked.

To keep the studio really cold, 46 degrees, by the way.

Yeah, really cold. And um. He said he thought it was cause of the laughs were better. And then I started to think, I think it's because if you clap, you're creating bodily heat, like getting people into hypothermia.

But it, you know, it was always an honor to play Dave Show. Then, immediately afterwards, we were grown and think, here we go, we're going to go to the Siberian winter and try to play a rock song.

Yeah, well, we would. Uh, the person who wasn't like that. And Jim, you'll remember this was Aretha Franklin. Aretha Franklin showed up to play our show. She was not having that shit about a cold studio, and we were trying to, you know, people were trying to explain to Aretha Franklin that. Well, it actually does help because between the lights and the cameras and everything is going to get too hot in there. No, you fuckers are going to put that hinge.

It is hard to sing. Yeah, I made the mistake. One time, I was like, cause I'd done Letterman enough, where I was like, I'd always walk from the dressing room. And then you walk in the car and it's like, it's like going cold outside and try to sing, right, right?

I am the Aretha Franklin of my genre, is what you should have said. You know, we asked you well for I have a one or two geek questions, cause I'm a hat guitarist. What was the guitar that you saw as a kid that blew your mind was there?

Well, my father played a flying V, okay, and he had a 1966 or something. flying V. Yeah. And um, purple, very cool, with a like an 1890s Indian head silver dollar, which people used to put in the back of flying vs.

I have to say that the couple of times I've strapped on a flying V, I've found it a very uncomfortable experience. And not everything.

It is very uncomfortable.

And so then what did you? Did you move on to a les Paul?

My father got me a a Korean made Les Paul copy, as it's known in the business, so it looks like a Les Paul, but it's some badly made one. Um, I had that, uh, I painted it black, sold it to a drug dealer, and then, uh, I had a Fender Mustang that my father gave me. I played that for a while, but it had very, um, weak pickups.

It had to be for something specific.

And then, and then, fast forward 20 years. I'm walking down the street in Chicago and a guy pulls me aside and says, Do you still have that yellow guitar? And I said, No, that's the one that got stolen. I don't know if you heard that story, somebody found it 27 years later and came back to me.

But at that point, did they want to resell it to you?

No, no, this guy pulled me aside and said, Do you still have that, that guitar?

Right?

Um, and I said, no, and he goes, but you got it from Jimmy Chamberlain, right? Yeah, he said. How much did he charge you for it? oh?

Oh, Jesus, okay.

He wasn't mad, cause he was, he loved Jimmy. It was some weird story, like Kid's Story, where Jimmy had stolen the guitar and sold it to me for rent money. And that was the that was the guitar that I played on the band's first records, and they got that guitar got stolen. Some sort of weird karmic thing came back 27 years later.

It's going to re, it's going to reappear in your life at some point.

Oh, you did get it. A gentleman, uh, out of Nashville. Somebody contacted him and he, bless his heart, got the guitar back. He obviously played some money, didn't ask me for any money, he just gave me the guitar.

Oh, that's great.

After 27 years, I like that, that's cool.

Had it been altered much?

No, um, surprisingly not.

I remember very well that the first electric guitar I got was, I think I paid $600 for it, and it was 1985.

That's a lot of money.

It's a lot, yeah.

Uh, what was your guitar?

Well, that's it. It was a 63 Gretsch. I'm sorry, 64 Gretsch. Tennessean Oh, nice. And so, actually, for the money, it turned out to be a amazing investment.

It's worth a lot now. Do you still have it?

I have it hanging up on the wall behind me. And, um, I had it at Saturday Night Live. When, uh, George Harrison stopped by to say hi to all of us after a night of partying with Lauren. And it was in my office and it's the exact same year and model that George played on the tour. And for a second, I thought about running down and getting that guitar and showing it to him, and then I thought, don't be that guy.

Yeah, so that's one of those judgment calls.

I think I made the right call. Yeah, I think, uh, I think at that moment that was the right call. Because I, you know, to a. To a geek like me, it was like, Oh, this is perfect, I'll show George the same make and model guitar. And he would have seen, uh, a kid with some acne, who was undernourished and a big pile of hair on his head, shoving a guitar at him. When you know, he could probably open a closet at home and 700 grouches will fall out.

So when you're a quick, funny story, no, I don't have time for that. Okay, let's move on.

Yes, please.

So, uh, Jack Bates plays in the Pumpkins, he plays bass, his father is Peter, Hook of Joy, Division and New Order thing, and uh, uh. They were touring. And they had rented a box and the amp blew up, and it was from a rental company, so they knew not to just take the amp back to the rental company.

I had, I was in, uh, Nashville, and there was a famous guitar shop that I was touring, Grueling Guitars ruins. Yeah, I remember it.

I've spent a few dollars in groups.

Well, they tried to get me to spend a few dollars that. At one point, they showed me some of Buddy Holly Fanatic. And they showed me an amp that belonged to Buddy. And they were showing it to me. And then they took it off and they showed me where Buddy had put his, you know, written. And then, well, I was fascinated by it and they let me plug it in and I got to play. That'll be the day, uh, on a stratocaster through that amp. And so I was just pure joy was coming out of my pores. And then they told me, Um, how much of what they wanted for it.

So in 1982, I went to see a Judas Priest play and it was at a racetrack, um, which eventually burned down. And when I was in there, it felt like a fire trap. It was one of those things where you're looking around and go, if something goes wrong here, I'm going to die, yeah, but it's Judas Priest.

And so what a way to go.

Not bad, yeah, Judas Priest in 82. Not a not a bad way to go. So I bought the pedal board that K.K. Downing was using that day and the amp that he was playing.

No, it's like, in a weird way, you're closing some mystical loop.

Yes, that's how I feel, that's that's why I, I. I would be happy if you had bought the amp, because there's something that happens when you do stuff like that. It makes no sense at all, but it sort of confirms some other thing, yeah.

Yeah, my my only real regret in that regard was I was at an auction once, but we were shooting something at a rock and roll auction. Elvis Aaron Presley's library card from Humes High School. Came up on the block and I was busy trying to position the cameras and wasn't listening. And they were like, going once, going twice, and they didn't get the amount they wanted, so they took it off the auction. And I don't know where it is now. But I would have paid a lot of money to have had that in my wallet for the rest of my life. And, uh, missed it. And so if it's whoever owns it, let me know because you name the amount and I'll pay it.

Less than buddy Holly's amp.

No, no, no, it's all different now. My kids don't need to learn how to read, you know? We asked you before you came if there were three songs that I would say were meaningful, affected you in a certain way come to mind, and you were kind enough to to come up with three tunes.

My grandmother, who I was very close to on my mother's side, was dying of cancer, 57 years old, and I would have been 17.

Yeah, well, this song, it's interesting you mention it because everybody knows this song so well. It's such an iconic song. I've always noticed. And I'm not sophisticated when it comes to music or mixing, but it's so powerful. The way it starts with that simple riff, and then the way it's layered, the way. I guess. If you're listening to it in stereo, you hear there's the original riff. And then these complimentary riffs that are coming in on the acoustic guitar. I think, and the way they're coming in different channels, and then suddenly the whole thing comes together.

Well, it kind of starts with the radio effect. I think they want it to sound like somebody's listening on the radio if you want a little bit more background. So when Pink Floyd was inducted in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, I was asked to give the speech.

Oh my god.

So I got to sit with him and tell him. I can't believe. We're going to play this song because the song means so much to me. And I had nothing to do with it. They just decided to play the song. But they were at odds with Roger, so Roger wasn't there, the other three guys were. And then, years later, this would have been about four or five years ago, Roger had done this thing where he was working with wounded veterans.

Well, that's when you go back, that's when you. I always time travel in moments that are anything like that, you know, for me, it's wait. I was the kid in Brookline, Massachusetts, sitting on the heating grate, watching a black and white TV and Jack Parker.

I was trying to date you.

Yeah, exactly, no. He would have been gone by them. But. But watching like Andy Griffith, or, you know, watching any of these iconic performers, or Carol Burnett? And then how is it that I'm with them now and they even know my name? That's the time travel part that I find amazing. And for you, it's going back to, you know, Illinois, and you're just like, Wait a minute, how can this be?

Yeah, I'm to put a bow on it. You know? When you're in music and you talk to journalists all the time, they focus on a lot of stuff that doesn't have anything to do with music. Yeah, or why are you musician? It's all about the accoutrement.

Well, it's a religious experience. yes, absolutely, an absolutely pure spiritual experience, where, oh, the universe, something, there is magic in the universe, yeah.

And then, invariably, you got to sit in the guy with an office who tells you it has nothing to do with magic. Yeah, here's the piece of paper, right? I once had a guy, it was like a business meeting, excuse me, and the guy pulls out a piece of paper and he goes. Well, we've researched. You and your band is the 1055th most searched band on the internet.

Yeah.

Yeah, now he's using it as a negotiating tactic to obviously get my price down.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay, but if you really think about it, like, even hit pause and we're laughing, because it's funny, right? Okay, but wait, there's 8 billion people on the planet, 7 billion people. You've made music.

So it doesn't feel like it gets you the way it used to.

But that's what I'm saying is is, is you got to know who you are in there? That goes back to the kid in the basement that, you know, when kids were out front. I have enduring memories. My brother loved to skateboard when it wasn't popular in the 80s or whatever. And I remember, on a summer's day, standing in my bedroom, playing scales, you know, trying to be Yngwie Malmsteen and watching kids play on the driveway and laugh and fall. And here comes the cute girl and I'm in the bedroom.

In the tech world, they call the dick dance negging. That's when you just say, you know, we're not really, your stuff isn't that good, and really not that. And then you think, Well, why am I even in the meeting? why am I here?

I was in one of those meetings once and Guy was trying to alpha me that way and I just looked at him. I said, Look, motherfucker, you can't get rid of me, That's why you're talking to me, you can't get rid of me.

I like that, he said. That's true.

Yeah, yeah, God bless, right? Because I'd rather, I'd rather, I'd rather be honest.

But let's, let's give wish you were here.

Yeah.

Let's listen to it, Eduardo, do your magic.

Yeah, absolutely.

And what are you hearing? You're hearing? Choices they made in the studio economy.

Floyd is amazing. With economy patience, they have patience in a way that sort of belies their age, you know? I mean, when they're making that, they're all like in their probably late 20s.

When you say patience, in what specific way?

They're not in a hurry to get to anything like Floyd works in their own time scale. It's very unique, like the way David has a way of playing guitar lines that you can literally sing along to. It's very rare for a guitar player to solo. But not in a wanky way. And the little way they kind of cheat things in there.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking is, you know, I've spent most of my life thinking about comedy and thinking about what's the funny way for something to happen. And so sometimes I'll be watching some. I like to lose myself in something I don't want to be thinking that way, and sometimes I'll see, oh, they're doing that thing now.

And can you illustrate what, like, like, give me a comedy, that thing?

Well, OK, I mean, I can't think of a specific example.

But I want to, I like to learn, so just give me an illustration of like, what like there are in the pumpkins? We call it a gag, yeah.

And in the in the world of comedy, I mean, there are all kinds of things that are just the way things are done. One is the callback, you introduce something and then you bring it back in later on. And sometimes it's done really artfully. And sometimes the callback is used in kind of a cheap way to kind of what's goose?

But in the band, we call it the power of discernment. MM Hmm, right, so it's only somebody in the game knows where the line is right.

And then they get some booing. It makes me happy.

Yeah, but, but. but yeah, if you believe in the art of something. You don't want cheap heat, you don't want cheap laughs. No, exactly, you want the real laugh, right?

Oh, it's true, because I remembered having we did something at rehearsal and it did really well. I remember Robert Smigel, our you know, original head writer, you know co-creator, on on the Late Night Show. He was saying, let's lose that, and some of us were saying, but it did really well.

Yeah, like, we have enough successful music that we can put together a set list that we know people will approve and like. And probably buy t-shirts, as we used to say back in Chicago, no shit, Sherlock, you know? But the art is giving them something that they didn't know, that they wanted. And having them leave and say. That was a richer experience than I thought. Coming in if they just play the songs that I know.

There's this big event, you know, this event, Jim, there's an event for the Museum of Natural History that they raise a lot of money. And all the big wigs on the upper, East side and west side of Manhattan go there. I had, you know, they ask people to perform at it, and I think I did it at least once, then they would get music.

Yeah, I mean, I can only kind of nod my head. I've been in those situations and I've done that version of that thing in those situations and got a lot of heat for it. Yeah, yeah, and I've done the other thing where you're doing what everybody wants you to do.

Yeah, well, the next song is Metallica, and you had, you made an interesting choice. Yes, because I believe this song, Fade to Black, was their first was Power Ballad. Is that fair to say?

Actually, I saw an interview with Lars talking recently about how it was controversial because Metallica used acoustic guitars and it wasn't very metal of them.

Yeah, yeah, Lars was just here, oh, very talking on the podcast.

And I love Lars.

Oh my God, it was such a good time.

And every time he says, Metallica, Yes, yes, yes, and he says, Metallica, a lot.

Yeah, because it's a big part of his life.

Yeah, God bless. But. But I say, every time he says Metallica, I kind of chuckle, Yeah, because only he says Metallica, like he says Metallica.

Which is, for him, the correct pronunciation. Well, yeah, not metallica.

Metallica in this song.

You know, I think this is their second, is this their second album? Yes, and Ride the Lightning, yeah.

But then it goes to the fiddly bit, yeah, which is a technical term, which in the industry, the fiddly bit where there's fiddles, yeah.

So let's listen to it and see what it, what it brings up. Fade to black.

Yeah, it's a it's a feel thing when you play that type of music. I love that lyric in there. I think he sings, I was me, but now he's gone.

Does that take you back? when you hear that? can you go back? do you go time travel back to that point?

I have a weird thing and I've never heard it explained scientifically, but I have, like a I'm going to stumble with the way to put it. I have a holographic memory when it comes to music, so when I can put myself back in the time and place. Emotionally, when I heard the song. And I have almost like total recall, which is how I produce records. So I'll be in the studio and I'll think, like, I want the feel of fade to Black.

And it might be a curse sometimes.

No, no, actually, I think it's really, quite remarkable, and I have no explanation, I've never seen it explained. And what's crazy is Jimmy Chamberlain has something very similar, which is why I think that we've always worked so well together.

We did this same thing with Neil Young, where we played, Neil was sitting right where you're sitting, and we played some music. He sent in. Some music that I don't think he had listened to or thought about for a really long time. And it was stuff that he was listening to in Canada in the 50s.

Del Shannon, By chance.

It wasn't, wasn't Del Shannon, do you remember? it was? There were, like, really, it was very folky some of it.

I know he covered that at one point.

It was fascinating, too, because it's very similar to watching Neil listen to those songs. And he would do what you're doing, which is close his eyes and really go there. And then he, he came out of it after one song and it was like, you, I said, Well, where were you right then? And he went. I remember there was a, he described a jukebox and him standing there.

Yeah, maybe there's some universal language that people with musical ability speak or hear. Yeah, I mean, I like, I said. I find it fascinating that journalists never talk about that.

Not throwing a TV out the window of the hotel room.

No, I mean, that stuff's fun, but.

Yeah, and what if someone's in the pool? The last song is Joy Division, and I have to admit I didn't. I didn't know much about Joy Division.

And we got to get you on the on the joy division tip.

Yeah, and I, I didn't know, and then you brought up this song. And of course, I know a lot now. More about Joy Division now. And and what a really tragic story it was.

Very much so, yeah.

Just their lead singer, guitarist, I believe, also the songwriter or co-writer.

They wrote, they wrote together, they wrote the lyrics, yeah.

And just how he suffered from epilepsy and depression, and it just what a terrible thing.

24 years old, yeah, and killed himself, yeah. And I believe, and I think it's true, is it was like on the eve of their U.s.

They were just about to come to the U.

I started making the argument back in the 90s that Joy Division was probably the second most important band behind the Beatles in the 20th century. And when I made the argument back then, people kind of would make a face like, kind of sort of now people, I think, have kind of come around to it.

And what is it that specifically was? It was the originality, it was the pureness of it.

Well, a lot of people now would call it like post-punk or something, but what it really is is. Is DIY musicians creating great music without the conventional structures of music? If you think about like, you were talking about rockabilly, OK, well, most rockabilly is based on one, four or five. Yep.

So how many albums did they do? They just have one or two, I think three albums.

Love will tear us apart. I think was kind of towards the end of that particular arc before Ian killed himself. And then the only thing I would add to this is that.

All right, let's let her rip. Love will tear us apart. Joy, division.

They let me do whatever I wanted to do and it was kind of funny. Because they're, they're from that world of everybody should just do what they feel. But I was getting in the kind of sacrosanct territory where they'd created this beautiful thing. And at times I would get these. Side long looks like you're kind of going in the spaces, you shouldn't go. So it was a little bit of a negotiation.

Sure.

But invariably, I settled on the idea of, like, I get it, because I've been in that situation as a band leader. Like this is the way it goes. But there's a what's sacred about it isn't whether or not I play the right note in the right spot. This is like where it's coming from in your heart. And so invariably I think they, they just kind of let it go.

There's something about again, I don't have the words for it, and I might maybe nothing. But when I listen to this song, it almost sounds, the vocals are mixed. They're almost, I mean, I'm not used to it. But usually the vocals on when you're listening to a song are so present. And here they're unusually.

Yeah, it strikes me, because when you listen to it, it's not a perfect recording, it's not perfectly mixed, you can't hear every lyric. And yet it's one of the most famous songs of the 20th century. And it reminds me of what I said when I was inducting Pink Floyd in the in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

Yes, it is, yeah.

Just the fact, like you were talking about Ian's vocals being mixed low.

Really got my attention when I, when I was listening to the song, and of course, I've heard the song many times, but I was really noticing accidents. It's the same thing in comedy and music, and probably in a lot of things. Accidents are where the gold is, you know, and I don't know if it's an accident. But you said, maybe they didn't mix it correctly.

But I think those are all intentional choices. OK, yeah.

You know, I just it's, it's to me that was arresting, like it really got my attention, that I could, because, you know, it was like, I. I think I can hear him, but he's really back there.

We're on, we're on the precipice of a kind of taking over a bunch of things, right? And and I'm already out there, ringing the clarion bell. That once kids get their hands on as a songwriting tool, it's over for the organic process of songwriting. Because if you're 15, you have to spend 10,000 hours listening to the Beatles. Enjoy division to learn how to write a song versus. You can punch a button, and it's going to give you seven options.

You know, he's not around anymore, so you may have to do it.

I gladly play Jason Robards in the movie, but what I'm trying to say is, you know, the guy gives the warning.

Yep, yep.

Hey, by the way, do you really want to live in the world where you're willing to give up? Level terrace apart? The imperfectly made perfect song? Yep, are you willing to give that up for all this other perfect shit which really isn't that great? And unfortunately, we know in human nature that yes, they will. Yeah, but this way I can.

Oh, sure, right.

Hey, give me, give me 50 jokes on Grandma in the kitchen. Yeah, you know what I mean?

What's something that they're every? It's got everybody's attention, I mean, everybody. In the as we record this, there's a writer strike going on and that's.

I think that's already been made. Yeah, I'm not trying to be that guy, but I'll be that guy today. I think that decision has already been made. I mean, it's easy to say it like this, like Chicago style.

And they're not going to be listening to you. A..I will have taken over that, too. You will not be parenting these children.

Maybe that's a good thing.

They'll have, you know, figured out.

I mean, because, you know, because when I did there already, when I dismissed their hopes and dreams, it'll at least come with a wry comment.

Yes, yes, they can, I'm sure, whether it's Sirius or whoever they've already. There's a there's a room where they've figured out my vocal tone just the right irritating.

Somebody just released, I haven't listened to it, but somebody released an a.

Do you want to listen to it or do you? Is it one of those things you'll have no interest in it?

Yeah, because it's sort of like, it's not. Kurt. Yeah, well, it's also a parlor trick, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't want parlor tricks.

That's what you're going to get.

OK, well, God bless.

I don't work that hard anymore.

I've never.

Yes, I know exactly what you're talking about. Dice has a thing where there's a famous recording of him bombing in a club. I think he calls it The Night, the laughter that is so funny.

I've listened to it, too.

It's so funny because he's doing his thing and there's he's not getting anything back.

But, you know, he did that on purpose. Yes, yes, because Rick Rubin, who produced that, said, you know, he did the very Rick Rubin thing with the beard and Buddha, Buddha, Rick. And we were taught. Because I knew he knew Dice, and he was obviously there when Dice was headlining arenas and all that stuff, and he did that.

There's a famous dice story that I love, that Mike Mike Sweeney, one of my great writers, tells, But it was dice in a club before, he had, you know, become a big star. And he did borrowed someone, part of someone else's act, because he didn't have the rest of his act that night, and he was still putting it all together.

I don't have time to fuck around.

Like, that's an excuse, and in a way, I kind of you're like, Oh, OK, it's so audacious, I don't have time to fuck around. We got to call this because we have.

You didn't cry, though.

I'm incapable of that.

I Did you ever cry on air?

I don't think so, not that I remember, I don't, I'm Irish. We hide all that.

Yeah, I mean, I'm predominantly Irish.

Yeah, we, that's all, we share that.

That's all been. It was beaten out of us in the eighteen hundreds.

Yeah, exactly, that's that. That ship sailed a long time ago. This was, this was great and I loved having. And I swear to God, I'm at this point in my life where the thing I prize the most is that I get to you. And I have crossed paths in the past. But to get to sit with you and really have a conversation is magical and meaningful to me.

And most of our conversations were in loud clubs, yeah, with really desperate, gold digging people. So yes, we never really got to get to the deep stuff until today.

This was really special and I just want to reiterate that you have so much going on. Autumn, which is a rock opera in three parts, is your latest. What's the latest volume? You're continuing the journey.

I think, so, yeah.

Yeah, you know, melancholy and infinite sadness, and machina, you know, like this is carrying, you're carrying on in that, that story, and you have a tour.

We will have wrestling on the road, that's fantastic. Yeah, I own the oldest wrestling promotion in the world, the NWA.

So that is fantastic.

That's its own. We should, we should do a wrestling podcast? Yeah, yeah.

That could be a separate thing, I could be part two, but some other time.

But I got some good stories for you there.

I'll show you a clip one day of me. Yeah, I was.

It's an interesting world.

I'll throw on a mask and come on and and wrestle while you play.

Well, there was Red Bastine, I think he was known as the Red Baron. MM. Hmm, so I could do that.

Yeah, people will say I'll be masked, no one will know it's me, but they'll say, not at all. Something's very wrong with that man's body.

So we finished that now, so there's thirty three episodes, but you can still hear them. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but three was no longer.

But who is going to get too deep there?

I don't know, I feel like you pose some sort of deeper question that I can't answer. That's a good way to end. We'll just leave it on a hanging, a hanging particle or whatever it's called.