Episode 461: H.H. Holmes Part 5

I'm Dan Taberski. In 2011, something strange began to happen at a high school in upstate New York. A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms and spreading fast. What's the answer, and what do you do if they tell you it's all in your head?

Hysterical, a new podcast from Wondery and Pineapple Street Studios, binge all episodes of Hysterical early and ad-free on Wondery Plus. Hey Weirdos, I'm Ash and I'm Alayna.

And this is morbid.

It is the conclusion to H.

H. Holmes Oh my goodness.

That wasn't as epic as I thought it would sound. I thought you sounded epic. That's why I said, Oh my goodness, yeah, we're finally at the conclusion here. It's a doozy.

But don't worry, because in the end, this man gets what's coming to him. Hell fucking yeah, he does, gets what's coming to him. So when we, we're going to get right into it because this is a long one. And I'm ready to go fucking off about Jack the Ripper and the Dear Boss letter again.

So let's go, let's let's go down that path all over again, go right down that path again. So I'm just going to catch you up really quick. So this man has now killed Benjamin Pitezel and his kids.

Not all of them, right? Yeah, at least three of his kids, he's definitely going to kill the lady. He has sent their mother, Slash, wife, around the nation and Canada on a wild goose chase, thinking her husband is alive all the while. Detective Gary, from the insurance company he defrauded with the murder of his supposed friend and business partner, has hired the Pinkerton Detective Agency to help track him.

They are hot on his tail now, and he has left Canada and come back to the states they're going in where they are looking for him. I'm not sure why he made that move, but, like, glad he did, yeah, that was stupid. I'm really excited for the Pinkerton of it all.

I also really like saying, Pinkerton, Pinkerton, you know, Yeah, I know. But before we get into this whole thing, we are going to quickly touch upon why people think he's Jack the Ripper. Oh my goodness.

We're going to get that right out of the way, right up front, so we can dive back into the story and finish it off with his execution. Because that's proper, of course, you know, that's the way we do it, the proper, this is how we do it, the off, the off is how.

So let's talk about the theories about him being Jack the Ripper, let us they mostly. So. He has an ancestor named Jeff Mudgett. remember? His name is Herman Webster Mudgett. How could I forget?

Uh, Jeff is like his great, great, great, great grandson, you know? Like one of those, I'm not exactly sure, like forth removed or something, yeah.

And he firmly believes that H.

H. Holmes Is Jack the Ripper? H.H, Well, you are, you're all over me right now.

He firmly believes that H.

H. Holmes is Jack the ripper? They are the same person, he. There's a grandson, yeah.

The great, great, great, great grandson. Um, he, I mean he. He's a former attorney, like, he's a credible human, like so far, I have not seen him.

I have not seen anything about him doing like anything, you know, bad or nefarious, where you'd be like, why are we believing this man? Um, but you know, I don't know if I agree. I'm not here to say for sure, because I don't know, you don't know, we don't know.

He doesn't know, and I and I commend him for nobody knows. There you go. She literally put up a finger to make me stop talking, to say that I want you all to know that.

She said Wait, I didn't want the moment to pass. Sometimes I don't put up a finger to stop you and the moment passes. Yeah, you know, I get it now. He presented a ton of evidence.

Uh, he did a Ted talk in Vancouver, I think it was. He presented a bunch of exhibits. A lot of them are pretty interesting. Um, that's as far as I think they are is interesting.

One of the things he presented was a letter confirmed to be written by H.

H. Holmes to his lawyer. And it was near 19, or 1888, and he was talking about how much he wanted to go to London. Okay?

So he expressed interest in going to London. I too have done the same. Yeah, there is that now. There's also the fact that Scotland Yard believed, according to witness reports, that Jack the Ripper was about 5'7. You know, somewhere in his late twenties, early mid thirties, they believed he was a doctor. You know, a very average build, Holmes was exactly 5'7".

He was technically a doctor. I feel like, yeah, I feel like 5'7 is also like, kind of on the shorter side, yeah, it's all pretty, like, you know, average, like nothing stands out to me. It's like, Oh, that's him.

Also, I know that, like eyewitness accounts are, you know, a thing. They're tough, and I know that's really all we have to go on. In the Jack the Ripper case for these kinds of things, for what he looks like, no surveillance. Unfortunately, everyone needs to remember, and I hammered this idea in when we did the Jack the Ripper case. There was no lights.

When I say there was no lights in Whitechapel, I mean, there was no lights. I mean, go outside, stand in the middle of the forest. That's probably kind of as dark as it was, it was probably darker. So like, I don't know if we can really look at, like, oh, that man was 5'7".

Like, I don't know, well, that's also just so that's such a specific measurement, very specific. If you could say like, Oh, he was like, I'm 5'6, so he was between my height and like, 5'9, I'd say, yeah.

Like, you know, other than that, I'm like, 5'9. I don't know what someone who's 5'9 looks like. No, but you know what? Some, well, um, no, nevermind, I'm dumb.

Like, John is like, 6'3, 6'4. I only compare things in in heights of John. Like, I literally will look at somebody, I'll be like, Well, they're almost close to John's height, so they're probably around. Like, that's the only way I can distinguish anything. I do that exact same thing in my own home, yeah.

I was measuring an area to put like a a raised bed, and in my head, I was like, that's about two John's.

I do the same thing, that's amazing, and for height, I'm always like, that's about one and a half. John's. I do that all the time whenever people in the in the six feet apart times one John apart.

One John apart, that's it. That's literally what I do. I'd be like, Could John lay between me and that person? I'm good?

If they can't, I better move back. It reminds me of In Gilmore Girls when, uh, I can bring it back there all the time, always.

When Logan is talking about like measuring distance through crowpogs, cause that's like a Yale thing, it's like this many crowpogs to this thing. I'm like, this many, John's shut up, Logan. So yeah, you know, there's that.

So, like, sure, again, presented in a way where it says, You know, you put them all together and what do you got? You put them all together? And they all say five, seven, they say about this age, they say about this height range, this weight range, like whatever. He was a doctor.

You say, Hey, Hh. Holmes happens to be five foot seven and of that average weight and all that must be him. You know what? I'll give it to you.

It's there that that is true. So I will absolutely say that you can't really sure. I mean, a lot of other people are too, but like, sure.

H.H. Holmes is, uh, Scotland Yard also put together, and he really laid his hat on this one, and a lot of people really lay their hats on this one, um, Scotland Yard put together. A composite of all 13 credible and dated eyewitness accounts of Jack the Ripper and what he looked like. But again, no lights.

And again, no lights. Uh, they put it into one photo, like composited it into one human, that photo. First of all, when I look at it, I'm like, I don't know about that, I don't know about that. When you showed it to me, I wasn't there.

I'm not there, but I too, don't know about that. You, you said in one of these that, like people have 1800s faces, like old timey faces. That man is from 2013. At the earliest, it just did not speak to me.

But besides that, because obviously you would look at that and say, well, who gives a shit, what you think this is reality. So that photo when compared to H.H. Holmes's photo, people think it's a great comparison, okay, and to which I say, nah.

What? Because I don't think it's a good comparison at all, in my opinion.

Bothers me a lot. He has a very full bottom lip. H.H. Holmes's bottom lip was notably fuller. In fact, it was something people talked about with him. It was a distinguishing characteristic to him that his bottom lip was a full bottom lip.

Filler Queen, Filler Queen. H.H. Holmes. But Jack the Ripper? That composite photo of what he's supposed to have looked like. He has no lips, and he certainly doesn't have a full bottom lip. And I'm telling you, if we are, if we are close enough and we are able to describe enough to say. He's five foot seven, he's of this age, he's of this weight, he has a mustache, he has high cheekbones. They would have seen that full lip, that would have been one of the things you would have heard in many of the descriptions.

Was he had a full lip? And also wouldn't you think, didn't he have, like, a special thing with his eyes? H.H. Holmes He had strabismus, but that wouldn't. I don't think that would have really been relevant, especially in the darkness back then, because all strabismus is you can't really focus on someone. Oh, okay, okay.

It's like, Um, it's really just a focusing thing, gotcha, gotcha. Like, one eye might drift a little bit, okay?

Um, so I don't know if anybody would have been close enough to him to see that besides until they and they would have been dead. Yeah, that makes sense, but again, and the other thing is that Holmes had a very weak ass. Jawline. yeah, it sucked like no jawline to be found, at least in the photos that I've seen.

Shave that and it's no good. But the composite has a pretty strong jawline and it's like, that seems to be a uh. And he has very high cheekbones, I guess you could say Holmes does, too, but like, again, they're not very. I don't really think they are. I wouldn't sit there and be like, Wow, look at those cheekbones, yeah.

You know, I think he kind of looks a little bit like a basset hound, he does a little bit, a little droopy. Um, and then there's the medical knowledge thing. We all know that medical knowledge is a hot debate when it comes to Jack the Ripper.

Some people believe wholeheartedly he had to have been a doctor, or at least in the medical field, other people believe by no means. Is that even something we should be looking at? And then there are other people who sit in the middle and they say, I don't know. It could be that. Or he could have been a butcher at the time because they had similar knowledge. That's you, that is me.

Um, I'm on the side, like I said, like, I sit in that middle area, but I would lean more towards. He had at least some medical knowledge. But theories surrounding Holmes being one in the same with Jack say that maybe Jack's crimes were actually the beginning of Holmes's murderous career. And he evolved into the Holmes that we know now. I don't understand this on any level, and I've read a lot of these theories about this particular like issue here. That, like, he must've started as Jack the Ripper and then evolved into Holmes. I don't get that.

Like, Jack was very methodical from the jump, was he reckless? Sometimes? Yeah, absolutely, but he always seemed to have a plan. Well, that's what I was going to say.

Even in his recklessness, it's it was still slightly organized. Yeah, like it was reckless the way he went about it. But there was a plan in place and it's like he had, he, like, escalated as he went.

So to think this would have been Holmes's beginnings make absolutely no sense to me. It makes sense to go the other way around, right? Because Jack's murders were fucking horrific. You don't start there and then end on poisoning people with gas.

No, you would think that you would work your way up to that. Yeah, it doesn't make any sense to me. And then people talk about the traveling like it was pretty, you know, people could travel by boat pretty easily back then if you had the money to do it.

You find the ship manifest. I cannot find the ship manifest. maybe it doesn't exist. There are ship manifests. Allegedly they are cited a lot, but I can't find them.

Holmes traveled from the U.

S to London during the time period that Jack was active. This was also during the time period in 1988 early 1989, where you can't find evidence of Holmes in Chicago or in the United States. So that is an interesting thing. Little hairy.

Is weird that you can't find a lot of evidence or a lot of stuff going on about him during that time in the United States. I will give that credence.

So he could have even been in Canada, that's the thing, then, he could have been using one of his like hundred, like his 40 aliases. You know that they just actually didn't pick up on. Holmes was also a very common name at the time. That's probably why Holmes chose it.

I think it still is. So he could blend in with others, be confused with others, and that would allow him to get by with all his schemes. But the fact that there was a Holmes on a ship to London while very compelling when you put it next to other things. Or if you want, you know you're looking for confirmation bias and you want to confirm your theory. I understand that's compelling. I'm not throwing it away by any means, but I just don't think it proves anything really.

I think it proves that there was a Holmes on that ship, but there was a lot of Holmeses. could be any Holmes again. The time period. intriguing, very intriguing. the fact that we can't find a lot about Holmes during that this small period of time. intriguing. But whatever. And now we're going to get to the thing that pisses me off the most.

Right, well, one of the things that a lot of people use and Jeff Mudgett uses, and again, I'm not like, Jeff Mudgett might be 100 right. I'm not saying he's wrong, I'm just saying I don't personally agree with this, especially this one piece of the puzzle.

People like to look at the Dear Boss letter, the Jack the Ripper, Dear Boss letter. And handwriting. Analysis said that this letter was likely written by an American because boss was not a heavily used term. Slang term in England at the time, it was used, but it was used more in America. I was going to say, maybe they just went abroad and thought they were fancy. When they got back to London, they were like, boss.

And they think it was written by the same person who wrote things that belong to Holmes. They compared some of the handwriting analysis again. I saw the comparisons. I'm not wowed by the comparisons. No, when you showed them to me, I wasn't either.

But they claim that the handwriting analysis said that it was like a 97 match or something wild. If it is, that's fascinating, but my eyes don't work right. It's also cursive, and a lot of people at that time period learned how to write cursive in a very similar manner. Yeah, that's the thing. Now I'm going to read you. Because I think we need to take a little trip back for a second. Because I have a lot of reasons why this doesn't make sense that it was H..h.

HOLMeS Okay, so the dear boss letter was this. I'll read it to you, dear boss. I keep on hearing the police have caught me, but they won't fix me.

Just yet I've laughed when they look so clever and talk about being on the right track. That joke about leather apron gives me real fits. I'm down on whores and shan't quit ripping them till I do get buckled. Grand work, the last job was.

I gave the lady no time to squeal. How can they catch me now? I love my work and want to start again soon, hear of me with my funny little games. I saved some of the proper red stuff in a ginger beer bottle over the last job to write with, but it went thick like glue and I can't use it.

Red ink is fit enough. I hope, ha ha. The next job I do, I shall clip the lady's ears off and send to the police officers. Just for jolly. Wouldn't you keep this letter till I do a bit more work, then give it out straight? My knife is nice and sharp.

I want to get to work right away if I get a chance. Good luck yours truly, Jack the Ripper. Me giving the trade name wasn't good enough to post this before I got all the red ink off my hands.

Curse it, no luck yet, they say. I'm a doctor now, ha ha.

So many things, uh, so many things I went over in the Jack the Ripper episodes about how this is not Jack the Ripper. When you were saying it, I was like, wait a second, cause I thought that we had determined it was not.

Yeah, it's not. This is not Jack the Ripper, this is the like, you know, going from. Like, my last job, my funny little games, the tones don't match, and then the whole blood thing.

The whole blood thing I'm going to get to that, don't worry, but that's it's. And him giving himself the nickname. It's just like, No, no, no, no.

So the dear boss letter. When you first hear it, it could feel real on first glance, and I get that I thought it was real on first glance, especially because of the ear thing it was so. This letter was turned into police on September 29th, which was hours before the double event and the murder of Catherine Eddowes, who had their ear clipped off. But the central news agency claims they received the letter on September 27th and waited until the day of the murders to turn it into police.

So there's conflicting ideas about when this letter actually came in, if it came in on the day that it happened, the day or days before. The dates are a little muddy there and I don't think we can trust them. And another thing, George Sims was a journalist who wrote a weekly column and was heavily into the investigation of the Whitechapel murders. And he said The dear boss letter and postcard were sent to a news agency and not a paper. Like, not a newspaper and not the cops. A news agency sells stories to papers and news outlets.

It's a hub like that's where you spread the story or the news to other sources. Wouldn't someone just send the letter directly to the paper or the actual investigators? Why would they choose a news agency who would know to even do that?

I can tell you who, someone who works at a news agency. And he wrote, George Sims wrote. The fact that the self-postcard proclaimed assassin sent this imitation, blood besmeared communication to the Central News opens up a wide field for theory. How many among you, my dear readers, would have hit upon the idea of the Central News as a receptacle for your confidence? You might've sent your joke to the Telegraph, The Times, any morning or any evening paper.

But I will lay long odds that it would never have occurred to communicate with a press agency. Curious, is it not that this maniac makes his communication to an agency which serves the entire press? It is an idea which might occur to a press man, perhaps. And even then, it would probably only occur to someone connected with the editorial department of a newspaper. Someone who knew what the central news was and the place it filled in its business of news supply. This proceeding, on Jack's part, betrays an inner knowledge of the newspaper world, which is certainly surprising.

Everything, therefore, points to the fact that the Jokist is professionally connected with the press. And if he is telling the truth and not fooling us, then we are brought face to face with the fact that the Whitechapel murders have been committed by a practical journalist, perhaps even a real live editor, which is absurd. And at that, I think I will leave it. So he's like, Nah, it's a very, very valid point that is this 100 betrayed somebody with an inner idea of how the press and news work.

And honestly, in Whitechapel, especially at the time, the lay person did not know that that was not something that people were just going to know on the streets. That postcard was also talking like it was sent before the double event, like I said, but it was actually postmarked over 24 hours after it was done. Yeah.

So the ear thing? It was postmarked after that and they could have already known. So it seems like whoever sent it tried to make it look like it was before. But that postmark betrays it, and again, the dates are all confusing, so that postmark is the only real thing you can go off of.

And if you look at it, it's after the double event now. Also the coagulated blood in the ginger bottle, that's the whole thing. This goes up my butt. This is a medically minded person.

H.

H. Holmes is a medically minded person. The real killer would not be shocked that blood coagulated in a ginger bottle, and it would obviously that would be coagulated by the time you sat down to write that stupid fucking letter. If you were keeping it from there, it would be jelly in minutes.

And the real killer would know that, and Holmes would also know that. Regardless of his knowledge of medicine, he did graduate from medical school. He's done a shit ton of stuff, he knows what blood does.

He's seen it, it's stupid, so this letter, in conclusion, this is fucking stupid. I just broke for a second, you sure did.

We just had to slap her real quick and she was like, Whoop, okay, I'm back.

I'm Dan Taberski. In 2011, something strange began to happen at the high school in Leroy, New York. I was like, at my locker and she came up to me and she was like, stuttering, super bad. I'm like, stop fucking around. She's like, I can't.

A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms and spreading fast. It's like doubling and tripling, and it's all these girls with a diagnosis. The state tried to keep on the down low. Everybody thought I was holding something back. well, you were holding something back intentionally.

Yeah, yeah, well, yeah, no, it's hysteria, it's all in your head, it's not physical.

Oh my gosh, you're exaggerating. Is this the largest mass hysteria since the Witches of Salem, or is it something else entirely? Something's wrong here, something's not right. Leroy was the new dateline and everyone was trying to solve the murder.

A new limited series from Wondery and Pineapple Street Studios, Hysterical Follow Hysterical on the Wondery app, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of Hysterical early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus.

Experience In Person The unsettling, True stories behind the Doctor Death podcast at Exhibit C Live presents Doctor Death a closer look. This live tour experience brings you face to face with accounts of doctors who caused irreparable harm. The system that failed to protect their patients and the heroes who stopped them. You'll hear from me Laura Beale, reporter and host of the Doctor Death podcast, along with our panel of experts and whistleblowers. It's hosted by suspects Matthew Scher.

It's an important evening with one of the most iconic true crime podcasts of all time. Don't miss your chance to be part of the conversation. Exhibit C Live presents Doctor Death A Closer Look. Tickets go on sale August 9th, so get your truest true crime fans together and get tickets before they sell out.

So his fake surprise and being like, Oh, I had to switch to red ink, like, that's just over the top and dumb, yeah, like it's just not real one. If we're claiming this is really Jack the Ripper, it doesn't even line up, even if we don't know who that is. We know he knows, he's going to know what blood does, he's seen blood coagulate in front of him, probably.

So it's really not shocking. And then if you're claiming this guy is H..H. Holmes, who even wrote this letter, that doesn't make sense. And then if you're saying that H..H. Holmes is Jack the Ripper and that this letter is real.

I'm sorry, I cannot get behind that. It's a it's a girl bye moment, it's a girl bye moment for me. And then the last thing that makes me crazy is if H..h.

Holmes was, in fact, the committer of the Whitechapel murders. He was Jack, the motherfucking ripper when that guy got ex. When he was, he had an execution date, he knew he was gone. I am, I am headed off, I'm shuffling off this mortal coil.

I know this. He started being wild like that man, started telling tall tales and started being like, I have killed four thousand people. Like he was, just that's crazy. All he wanted was to see in the papers what a fucking fiend he was and how he was a monster. And he'll go down in history and bop, bop, bop, bop.

He fucking loved it because he knew he was going to die anyway, so he wanted his legacy to be that he was a fucking fiend.

If he was Jack the Ripper, you think he would have just neglected to put that in there, like you think he would have? Just like, like, come on, I don't see it like he would have omitted the fucking Whitechapel murders out of his legacy, methinks.

Not, I don't think so. I think he would have been like, Guys, you think this was wild? You should extradite me over to London because I did some shit there. And I think he would just be like, let's go.

And he would have been able to live longer, he would have been able to talk about it more, he would have fucking loved to talk about it. You think he would have done all that and then not talked about it? No, no, no.

It's just not realistic, girl bye, it's just not realistic. I don't see it, so I wish you had a gavel.

If you believe we have something that can sound like a gavel, right? Did that hurt? though? No, it didn't. But so if you believe that they are one in the same, I support your freedom of thought, Alayna says. You're wrong.

But you're wrong, and I'm right.

Just Capricorn things. So there's that I'm wrong, you're right, and that's it, I don't think.

People are going to think, I'm such an asshole.

I was going to say breaking news.

Alayna's an asshole, so let's get back to Herman Webster Mudgett and get into it. So I just had to get through that, we had to talk about it. It was the elephant in the room, all that good stuff.

He's not Jack the Ripper, so let's talk about him as he is. So this man has now again killed a bunch of people. He's come back from Canada, we got the detectives on his trail, and staying in Canada definitely would have been a better idea since neither the Pinkerton agents or detective.

Gary, Why will it never not be funny? Cause every time I hear Ronnie and Ben go blah, blah, blah tell you about Gary from below deck, see, and I just love Detective Gary from Fidelity Mutual. It is the equivalent to Jake from Safe Farm.

It really is, what are you wearing? Gary from Fidelity Mutual Well, the thing is, the Pinkerton agents and Detective Gary, neither one of them had authority in Canada. So he he might not have even been extradited. Like, I'm sure Canada, like we know Canada. It would have been like, Girl, we'll help you out.

Yeah, like Canada's kind, but like, you don't know, that would have been pretty fucking ballsy, yeah. But the agents did make their way up there because they knew Canada was kind and that they could get them on their side. They said, I'm coming up.

But this time, the uh. The agents arrived in Toronto and Holmes and Georgiana had already left and were on their way to meet Carrie Pitesel in Ogdensburg, New York, where they had told her for the hundredth time, she would be meeting her husband, Benjamin. I hate that and what I'm assuming is the end of her life, that's all she heard, it's she was I, the amount of times that she was shuffled somewhere and then told her husband would be there.

And then they were like, Yeah, just kidding kills me. I know it's so sad. But when Holmes and Georgiana arrived in New York, he immediately let Carrie know Uh-oh, this is too small of a town for us to arrange a meeting.

And he said, everyone is attending to everyone's business here. So he said, you can go to Burlington, Vermont. That's where he'll be. Oh, I fucking love Burlington, Vermont, yeah.

And he said, He said, There you can see Ben, It's a nice place it is, but you're not going to see Ben there. He has shuffled her everywhere, it's fucked.

She's come from Canada down to New York again, and he's like, Oh, Vermont. And that also shows like how in love with her husband she was, that she was willing to go all these places, yes.

She'd be like, What the fuck like, the jig is up? But the love for her husband clearly kept her going. And she thinks that her kids might be with him too. So she's just like all hope now. Holmes, at this point, had written a letter to his brother in New Hampshire.

Oh, right, saying that he had had amnesia for eight years, the eight years since they had seen him. I forgot about that, like, Oops, I just forgot everything and I would love to come back home and, you know, just see all the things that I.

It's like the episode of Full House, where Michelle falls off the horse. Yes, that was a very intense episode. But somewhere between Canada and where he ends up in Boston later, we'll see.

What he had heard, yep, he had heard that he was being tailed. I just pulled on my ear to be like he had heard.

It felt like softball. I don't know why I did that, but I was like he heard with his ears. I was like, Is that where it happens? He does have like, pretty gnarly ears.

But he heard with those big ears that he was being tailed for murder in Chicago. Oof. And people had figured shit out. But he didn't know by who. He didn't know the Pinkertons were involved, and he didn't know Detective Gary was involved, and he didn't know when he just heard this rumor. So in the week that followed, Holmes continued This whole bullshit.

He told Carrie, Benjamin's husband or wife, and Desi, their 16 year old daughter, because now there's Desi, the 16 year old daughter, and Wharton is like a baby. Those are the only two left, right? The other three have been murdered by Holmes. So he tells Carrie and Desi, their 16 year old daughter, that Benjamin was alive and well and is now. Oh no, he's up in Montreal again.

Told them he's back in Canada. I don't even know what I would fucking do at that point. Yeah, I would, I think I would start exactly losing it. And they said that he. So. He claimed that he went back up there because he didn't feel it was safe to be in the US.

He thought he was going to get caught, so he was waiting to reunite with his family. And then he told them. You won't even know him. He has a new set of teeth and is all fixed up, nice, so you won't know him at all.

He's very anxious to see you, he's such an evil fuck, so fucked like.

No one really knows why he was continuing the scheme at this point, cause he was enjoying it. He'd already claimed the money for the insurance payout and he killed the three Pitezel children, so there was really no reason to continue this.

Like other than she, she did know a lot. That's true. But he would have been like, who's going to believe you? Like what they've already paid out? The insurance thing like, it's. I truly believe he was just having a lot of fun emotionally torturing this family.

That's so fucked. No, no, I believe you. Yeah, no, on November 5th, I believe you.

On November 5th, Holmes left Carrie Pitezel in Burlington, and he took $1,000 from Georgiana, his wife, and he traveled to Gilman, to New Hampshire, where he was from.

Where Robert is now? Remember that he had sent the letter to his brother, Um, and he said, so. When he did this. He told Georgiana that he needed the thousand dollars because he was traveling to Kingston for a business meeting with an associate from Chicago.

So he's just lying all over the place like a rug, and he said it was going to be silly, boring stuff. You know, it would be better if Georgiana stayed behind. Yeah, of course.

You should definitely stay behind, just hang tight. So off he goes. And apparently everyone must've bought the amnesia story right, right off the bat. According to the Boston Globe, Clara showered her long lost husband in kisses, thrilled to have discovered him to be alive.

Oh my God, now when I read that, I said, Yeah, huh, like, do we do? We remember how she would walk around that place with black eyes, like, Are we really that psyched to see this fucker?

Right now, according to Adam Selser, those newspaper accounts were probably very embellished, meaning Clara and Holmes had not seen each other in like forever, they had seen each other. He was violent and he was shitty and neglectful of their children, child and her. And then there was, like some other communication where he wrote to her and wanted full custody, exactly.

Like, he treated her like shit, so I doubt she was immediately just like, Oh my god, yes, yeah, she was probably like, fuck. So it's much more likely that he gave them a very selective rundown of what he'd been doing in the years that he had been away.

He definitely explained the bigamy as amnesia related having. You know, I forgot that I was married. Oh my god, he told them. He was married again. Yeah, he was like, Oops, I got married again.

Twice, they were like, Excuse me. And, according to Holmes, it was only in the last two or so months that something had happened to cause his memory to come back. So that's why he wanted to return to his life as Herman Webster. Mudgett Totally.

Now it's funny because he speaks about this time. very strangely for him, when he wrote about it, okay, it's like, emotion filled, strangely. Um. About his return to New Hampshire, he said Here are many changes, even my initials, that have been deeply cut into.

One of the large elm trees that grow so slowly had become obliterated. This touched me deeply, seeming so much in keeping with what had been in reality, had what had in reality occurred to the name itself. So he's saying, like, my name had been obliterated in reality, and it was obliterated on that tree. And like, that's a very like, deep that is.

Like, this motherfucker is getting nostalgic. Yeah, it's like an introspective way of speaking about it, which is not very of him, I would say, or at least he usually does it falsely. And that seemed a little more real.

Like, I've lost who I was and like, I'm like, but then you just continue to. It's very weird, no one gets this. He probably couldn't stop at that point, I think.

Yeah, no one gets this, though. I don't get it. He probably doesn't get it that much, maybe.

I think there is like, something about going home, you know? Like, I think that made him introspective. It must have. And what's weird, though, too, is no one knows why he really went back to New Hampshire. I don't know.

Or like, It's not love. But like, whatever he felt, I really don't know. I couldn't put my finger on anything because nothing makes sense for him. The only thing I can think of is that he, like you were saying, he knows the tech. The detectives are hot on his trail for murder. Maybe he did just want to go home and say, like, have have a couple more memories with his parents and Clara.

See, that's, but it's fucking weird. Or like. He knew they were on his tail, and so he went back there and he was fully ready to become Herman Webster Mudgett again.

Right? And he was like, Maybe if I leave Holmes behind, I leave all these other aliases behind, I leave Howard behind all this. I'm Herman Webster Mudgett, I am my birth name, like, you know, maybe that maybe this'll keep me safe.

Like, they won't be able to track me, right? And if I convince everyone that I had amnesia? That nothing's happened in the eight years and we just start anew, right? That maybe, like, I'll be able to avoid all this.

Because maybe he was even planning on, like the amnesia story, selling it to himself over time. You know, yeah, but then so we, I said that, and we said that, and we're like, that makes a little sense, we besay.

But he didn't stay long, he left after only two days. Maybe you just couldn't take it on a train for Boston. No, get out of here.

Exactly, but I'm like, what were you doing? like, what was was the plan that initially? and you were like, this isn't going to work, maybe?

Like, maybe you saw that fucking tree and you were like, Oh shit, yeah, changed things. Maybe. It gave him like, maybe he was very introspective in that moment. And he's like, the name has been obliterated on the tree.

I can never come back to Herman Webster Mudgett, so I just need to, like, go forth, I really am gone, I really am h-h-o-m.

So the only thing I could also think of, so another thing.

Like his child, his firstborn was a son. And that was like, fucking huge. Oh yeah, it was like hair and all that. So maybe he was like, I must see my son one more time, yeah.

I don't know cause. Then remember he also wanted the custody, and we were like, why did he want custody of his son? Like that doesn't make any sense. It's very strange, I don't know.

It's very strange now. Before leaving New Hampshire, after those two days, Holmes sent a telegram to Georgiana in New York. You know, his wife telling her to meet him in Boston. So before he even left, he was already like, I'm out of here, uh. They met at a train station on November 13th, and from there they checked into the Adams House as Mr.

And Mrs. H. M. Howell? So he's right back to his own bullshit. The next day, he checked them into a boarding house in Boston, cause he was planning to stay longer now. Meanwhile, unbeknownst to Holmes, Detective Gary and the Pinkerton followed him from New Hampshire to Boston.

Once there, they went straight to the Boston PD and spoke to them about getting out to arrest Holmes for the Philadelphia insurance fraud. Unfortunately, the Boston Police chief at the time felt that the warrant from Philadelphia was not like, super strong. And he said, I could probably get them, but I'm not going to be able to hold them with this. Okay? So he was taken ahead.

He was so Gary was like, I got you, and he scrambled and got a second warrant from Fort Worth, Texas, the one where Holmes was wanted for being a horse thief and horse thievery is a big deal.

So if he was the case to hold him in Boston, I guess. They could have also tried to get a warrant from Chicago for the arson, too, but they didn't need to. You would think that they would want to, I know. November 17th, 1894 Holmes left the boarding house to go for a nice little morning walk. How'd that turn out?

Because he was so fucking egotistical that he assumed that there was no way he was being tracked in Boston with his big old mustache. Like, everybody knows exactly who you are, fucker, what a doomus. And also if you were on the run and you had committed all of those things, don't you think the first fucking thing you'd do is shave your fucking stupid mustache? He knew.

He knew under that there was nothing good. I mean, there usually isn't. But while walking, he was suddenly and very quickly surrounded by three inspectors from the Boston Police and one Pinkerton agent. Freeze motherfucker. And they told him he was coming down to speak to them at the station.

I love it now. At first, Holmes was like, Oh, what, what are you talking about? acting? shocked and very confused.

I've had amnesia and he tried to talk his way out of it like he always does, but he quickly gave in. When they were like, we're not going away, fucker. Remember, he had heard that he was being tailed, and he had to be heard he was being tailed for murder in Chicago? So at some point he was like, I, I was figuring I was going to get caught at some point. But he assumed it was for murder and instead they're arresting him with a warrant for horse thievery.

So when he goes to the station, he's confronted by, um, another agent from Fidelity Mutual named Uh, Forrest Perry. See, that's better.

It makes sense. He confronts him for faking the death of Benjamin Pitezel. And he was like, Oh good, well, yeah, absolutely. So he was like, I'm technically not up for murder.

Okay, so he just confessed. he was like, Okay, so he said. Quote Um, went to Philadelphia with. Pitezel, rented the house on Callow Hill Street and fitted it up with for both a bachelor's headquarters and a business office. Then stated that he went on to New York, where he met an old medical friend of his.

He said Quote, quote the body, which would answer in every description, that of B. F. Pitezel. The preparation of the body by burning one side with benzene or other ignitable fluid followed. And the old clay pipe was placed dangerously near it so as to suggest a terrific explosion. So he admitted everything, except for murdering Benjamin Pitezel.

He said, Oh, no, no. We put a person there in his place, but that person was already dead. We're just we're just frauding insurance. That's all like, no murders here. We just knew of a dead body locally, yeah.

And he also said he was part of a band of conspirators that included Benjamin himself and Carrie Pitezel. And which, I mean, it kind of was. And in his first confession to Deputy Superintendent Hanscom of the Boston Police and John Cornish of the Pinkerton Detective Agency, he claimed that Benjamin Pitezel was still very much alive. He said. Quote Well, I last saw him in Detroit, in the neighborhood of three weeks ago. And he said he accompanied the children for a short time and then was to hand them over to their father in Cincinnati. That was the plan. But when they got there, he said Pitezel had started drinking heavily again and he just wasn't comfortable leaving the children with him.

Wow this man, wow this man who had gassed those children to death.

This man is claiming their father, who he murdered, was such a was such an alcoholic that he didn't feel comfortable leaving those children with him. Wow, and he gassed those girls in a trunk. Wow, yeah.

And poisoned that little boy, and he lied about it. Yeah, he poisoned them. So he said he had some discussions with Benjamin, and then he said he and Benjamin quote compromised there.

So he took one of them, and I took the other two to Chicago because I had business there. You can have one, I think you can handle one in your drunken super, just one, just the boy, but I'll take the others.

He would not call anyone's attention so quick if he traveled with the boy alone. As if there were three. What, that doesn't even make sense. Thank you for saying the exact like, what?

Yeah, exactly. Holmes probably expected his confession would like pretty much answer all the lingering questions they had. I mean, he, he did the thing that really stupid murderers do. Where he prepares an answer for every single question that could come up. But it's so hyper prepared and rehearsed that you're like, you can't possibly have all these answers, right? He thought it was going to make up, you know, people are going to now understand his international and interstate travels like all that.

But I think he finally overestimated his abilities to fuck around and not find out. Because within a day of his confession, they'd moved a fresh body in a trunk from New York to Philadelphia. And the coroner pointed out that the body in the apartment had been laid out flat. Which would have been, which wouldn't have been possible, if the man had been dead for some time. So they did a little experiment, yeah, they did so. You brought that body from here to here in a trunk, you said that body that was supposed to be Benjamin Pitezel's like double.

Okay, how'd you lay it flat? how'd you do that? Like? That doesn't make any sense, and that's just such a classic. Like, Well, I thought I was smarter.

And they also said they said, first of all, it wouldn't have laid flat if it was in like any position. And they said, definitely not if it was in a trunk. For a long period of time, right? And they said it would have shown marks of where it had been doubled up.

And they said, Yeah, it would have shown marks where on the body. And Holmes confession didn't hold up under any of this. Of course, he couldn't explain any of this. Of course not, yeah, so. Investigators immediately said that bought the body found was really that of Pitezel and not of someone else.

So the claim of such a like this was truly a like, gruesome insurance fraud scheme, even if you take away the murder like, it's just gruesome, no matter what. So headlines were going crazy, and within days it was blowing up all over the place. After just two days of being arrested in Boston, Pinkerton agents arrested Carrie Pitezel in Burlington, Vermont. She was probably like, What?

Yeah, and then she was just there, waiting for Benjamin. Of course, she was brought to Boston, and she was interrogated by Hanscom and Cornish, the Boston cop and the Pinkerton Detective, and she wasn't super forthcoming.

Unfortunately, well, she was probably scared, she sure was.

And she was trying to protect her husband, who she still believed was alive. So she lied and denied any knowledge of a fraud scheme, which only made her look more complicit than she, complicit than she even was in reality. Based on all this and Holmes's confession, detectives confirmed that they believed quote the missing man, Benjamin Pitezel, is dead, and that he met his death at the hands of Holmes. So, although she may have had some knowledge of the scheme to the insurance company, detectives were pretty sure, pretty quick, that Carrie Pitezel didn't play a part in the actual crime. Um, they said she probably only knew of the swindle after her husband was supposed to be dead.

Yup, and police were pretty confident that she definitely wasn't directly involved in it, she hadn't had her hands in it. But they said there is someone else who seems to have their hands in this. Jepta Howe, the lawyer Oh my god, I forgot about Jepta.

That nefarious and unscrupulous lawyer is it Jepta Howe or Jep-da Howe? No, it's Jepta Howe, Gotcha, um. He was arrested at his home in St.

Louis St. Louis, U.M. On November 20th, and the warrant charged him with being a fugitive from justice. He released a statement saying I do not believe that a fraud has been committed. I believe the body identified by Pitezel's 15 year old daughter was that of her father.

The charges against him and his condition were perfect. As to how Pitezel met his death, I cannot say, but if a fraud has been committed, I'm anxious to have it investigated. Liar, liar, pants on fire and his immediately arson was another charge because his pants lit right on fire. Yup.

Um, on November 19th, a Philadelphia grand jury indicted Holmes and Howe for conspiracy to cheat and defraud the Fidelity Mutual Company. You don't want to be doing that. The indictment also added a third conspirator onto it, Charles A. Pitezel.

Who's that again? who that is is no one? investigators made an oopsie Who that is is no one? And Charles A.

Pitezel is just one of Benjamin's aliases, so they didn't realize that yet, and they literally indicted a dead man's alias for his own murder.

So who that is is no one. So there's that, there's the that of it all, so there's that.

Scammers are best known for living the high life until they're forced to trade it all in for handcuffs and an orange jumpsuit once they're finally caught. I'm Saatchi Cole and I'm Sarah Hagee. And we're the host of Scamfluencers, a weekly podcast from Wondery that takes you along the twists and turns of some of the most infamous scams of all time. The impact on victims and what's left once a facade falls away? We've covered stories like a shark tank certified entrepreneur who left the show with an investment but soon faced mounting bills. An active lawsuit filed by Larry King. And no real product to push.

He then began to prey on vulnerable women, instead selling the idea of a future together, while stealing from them. Behind their backs. With infamous scams of Real Housewives stars like Teresa Giudice, what should have proven to be a major downfall only seemed to solidify her place in the Real Housewives Hall of Fame. Follow Scamfluencers on the Wondery app, or wherever you get your podcasts. you can listen to Scamfluencers early and ad-free right now on Wondery Plus.

She struck him with her motor vehicle, she had been under the influence, and then she left him there. In January 2022, local woman Karen Reed was implicated in the mysterious Boston Police officer John O'Keefe. It was alleged that after an innocent night out for drinks with friends, Karen and John got into a lover's quarrel en route to the next location. What happens next depends on who you ask.

Was it a crime of passion? If you believe the prosecution, it's because the evidence was so compelling. This was clearly an intentional act. And his cause of death was blunt force trauma with hypothermia. Or a corrupt police coverup? In defense theory, however, this was all a coverup to prevent one of their own from going down.

Everyone had an opinion, and after the 10-week trial, the jury could not come to a unanimous decision to end in a mistrial. It's just a confirmation of just how complicated this case is. Law and Crime presents the most in-depth analysis to date of the sensational case. In Karen. You can listen to Karen exclusively with Wondery Plus.

In the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

The following day, they were extradited to Philadelphia to stand trial. So Holmes killed Benjamin Pitezel? Yes, so that meant he couldn't have left the three missing children with their father.

No, so now the question became, where the kids at? Where the fuck are? Alice, Nellie and Howard Pitezel? Yeah.

So the missing Pitezel children are definitely, like, top priority right now. But now they're also looking into, like the nationwide crime spree, like an international crime spree. That was shocking them at this point. In Chicago. A bunch of people came forward and identified Holmes as a man they'd once known by many other names before. He had run out on them before paying for anything that he had put on credit. And in Texas, people suddenly suddenly started connecting their loved ones, Minnie and Nanny Williams, with this man and were stressing the fuck out they. They were like, something terrible has happened here. And in the time since she'd gone missing, several private detectives were sent from Texas to Chicago in search of Nanny Williams. Because her trunk had sat on, claimed at the Wells Fargo office for months, and then was returned to her aunt.

So in Texas, which shocked them all, and none of them could get ahold of her. The Chicago Tribune reported it is certain Nanny Williams did come to Chicago. But whether she was murdered is a point that can only be cleared up when her sister Minnie is brought to light. By the time Holmes reached Philadelphia on the 21st of November, he started talking about Minnie, too, because they were bringing her up. According to the Philadelphia police, detective Thomas Crawford, one of the.

Holmes from Boston to Philadelphia Talk. He said He talked a lot. I was just going to say, imagine being that guy, oh my God, and you just have to hear him. He's told the bizarre story about Nanny Williams, like how she had died.

He told, like, several different stories about that, and under hypnosis, Crawford, this police detective, relayed the story that he had heard from Holmes. Oh, that's crazy, yeah, he said. He went to Chicago with his first wife and there fell in with a young woman named Minnie Williams, for whom he secured furnished apartments.

The girl was often visited by her elder sister. The younger, however, was jealous of Holmes and one day knocked her on the head and killed her. When Holmes returned and found the dead body in the rooms, he took it and put it in a trunk together with a lot of stones and sank it in the lake. The younger sister, having property in Texas, he and Pytzel took the property off her hands and furnished her with money to go to Europe, where she is now.

Nope.

He was jealous of nanny, and Holmes killed Nanny in a jealous rage by beating her over the head with a stool, leaving her in the bed. Then helped Holmes put her in the trunk, sink her to the bottom of the lake, and then she signed over the deed to the Texas properties to Holmes and Pytzel. And then they gave her a little money and off she went to Europe to live out the rest of her days. That's what he's claiming. The story spun about Minnie killing her sister at a jealous rage, just like was. It wasn't hidden with anyone, which is good, because that's also so fucked up. That he killed the both of them and was like the younger one was just jealous of the older one. So she beat her with a stool.

And this was also further cemented in by the hordes of people who, after he was arrested, wanted to tell reporters about their interactions with Holmes. Many of them had met Holmes and Minnie Williams in Chicago, but the problem was that they both. They were known as different names. And in some cases, the women they thought was Minnie Williams was actually Georgiana Yokes. Oh shit, but he was like introducing her, saying, This is Minnie.

And she was like, Yeah, it's me, Minnie. He also had another known associate named Kate Durkee, who he didn't kill, and he would it was also her. Sometimes that he would say was Minnie, oh fuck, and these women were just like, Yeah, it's me, Minnie.

That's the thing like, what now? Eventually, enough stories had come forward to allow investigators to conclude that Minnie was also missing and had in fact, not been seen by anyone. Since. She was last spotted with her sister in Chicago in mid-December 1893. Now, in the year that followed after this, Holmes's story about Minnie and Nannie Williams changed a billion times. He never told the same story twice. In some, they're both alive, they're both dead.

Minnie had gone into hiding after killing her sister. But then sometimes he would say I'd only told that story for fun because this Crawford guy was super gullible and I wanted to see if he'd believe it. But regardless of what he would say, it was always that. Minnie killed her sister, then fled to Chicago, and he hadn't seen her since. That was what he would like go back to, always so stupid. So. Holmes spent the winter of 1895 in jail, and journalists were talking to a man who had even come in slight contact with him and his travels.

Meanwhile, Detective Frank Geyer, from the Philadelphia Police, had set out from Philadelphia to track his movements before his arrest. So that they could figure out maybe where the missing Peitzel children were along his path. By then, investigators had learned a ton more about Holmes, and they learned that he had what? Like dozens and dozens of aliases. At the time, that he had moved from one hotel to the other, to a boarding house, to renting a house. Like they were learning all this shit. As it's happening, I'm just picturing them, connecting the red lines and just having the wall become a red line. Yes, literally.

And now, with all of this, they're trying to find these kids, and it's becoming so complicated that it must've been so frustrating. And just like, imagine how desperate they felt. Yes, and Geyer began retracing Holmes's steps. And he's checking in with every hotel along the way, every boarding house, every alias he's falling up on, just trying to find these kids. Well, it's been exhausting.

Everyone now. Holmes was no help, and his stories were becoming more and more inconsistent, they were changing. He would just lie, he would pull it back.

But then, in his possession, they found a small tin, and that small tin had a bunch of letters that the children had written. Their mother, Carrie Peitzel Oh no, he had written them too, and he had never sent them, and he had never given them her letters. And using the dates and locations reference in the letters, Geyer was able to trace a pretty accurate route of Holmes. His travels with the kids from Indianapolis to Canada.

Holy shit, so they use those letters from the kids, um, and in a town outside Cincinnati. They talked to a bunch of like shopkeepers. And they showed them a photograph of the man, identified as Holmes. And they were like, Yep, we know that guy. And then they said he was traveling in the company of a young boy who was later identified as Howard.

Peitzel got him well. And also a hotel clerk in Cincinnati identified Holmes as the man who checked in with two girls, but he didn't remember seeing a boy. But remember, he killed Howard first? In each new location, Geyer would hear another story, Holmes would arrive with children. Rented a house or apartment for a really short period of time.

And then he would leave and go to another one. This story finally changed in July 1895 because Geyer traveled all the way up to Toronto following the trail. Now he've worked with the Toronto Police Force and he, uh, they helped him trace Holmes's steps all along the city. Along the way, he got more and more positive identifications from eyewitnesses. Um, people would see Holmes, Georgiana and Nellie and Alice from hotel managers at the Walker House, um, where they said the girls were staying, the Palmer House, where he stayed with Georgiana.

And through this investigation, he finally learned that Holmes had expressed interest in buying or renting a house in several of the locations he was in in Toronto. So he went around to every real estate agent that he found in the area.

And he was asked if they recollected ever renting a house about that time to a man who maybe only stayed there a few days and who represented that. He wanted this house for his widowed sister because that's the story he was hearing. But the fact that he would only need it for a few days would be so memorable, exactly so, after doing this only for a couple of days, he finally found an agent who rented a house on the outskirts of Toronto to a man who only stayed there for a little bit and matched the description.

So Geyer and the Toronto detectives arrived at this house, and now an older couple was living there with their adult son. Oh God, so the detectives were like, Hey, uh? We have reason to believe that two young girls were murdered in this house and their bodies might be buried somewhere on the property. Can we like, Look, do you mind?

If we look like, can you imagine getting that fucking knock on your door? Well, apparently the owners weren't, like crazy, shocked they go. That accounts for that pile of loose dirt under the main building. You didn't want to call anybody about that.

Jesus Christ. So the couple's older son helped them and they got under the house and began digging. But the space was really small and it was really difficult to move around in, so it was slow this process. And eventually they had to stop because investigators determined it was not a house rented by H.H. Homes.

What so? There was just some random loose dirt in their house, there was nothing in there now that was not cool, fuck you.

While Geyer was retracing Homes's whoa, just throw in your pussy across the room. Chica, I was like sliding across the desk, you were playing like air hockey with it all the time. I went to go like, move it, cause I thought it was falling off and I almost made it fall off.

So you launched it, so I launched it into the sun now. While Geyer was retracing all the movements in Canada, Homes was on trial in Philadelphia for conspiring to defraud the Fidelity Mutual Life.

Producing a dead body and representing it to be the corpse of Benjamin F. Peitzel, that that's what he's on trial for. I'm going to type all that.

UH Homes pled guilty to the fraud charges. But when asked, he said that he would refuse to say to the district attorney or Philadelphia investigators where those children were. He was not going to tell him, of course, so they took him to county prison now. Several days went by.

Geyer is still up in Canada, talking to every real estate agent ever.

I, I did cross another one several days later. And it was for a house on Vincent Street, rented by a name matching. And you might remember that street, I remember Vincent Street, and the man who rented it matched homes's description. So, on the morning of July 15th, Geyer and his associates arrive at the house.

They speak to the next door neighbor, and the next door neighbor says, Yeah. I saw Homes's picture in the papers and he was definitely the one who rented this house for his widowed sister. And the neighbor also said, Yeah, I didn't get a good look at the girls, but he definitely had two girls with him. I couldn't, and he said I won't identify them as the two girls, cause I didn't get a good enough look. But he said, Oh, also, before he left town, like shortly before, he asked me to borrow a shovel.

Oh, I forgot about that. Geyer was like, Okay, cool. And so he went to the owner of the house, the one who rented it to homes, and they positively identified homes as the man who'd rented it.

Yeah, no problem here. So Geyer and the other detectives went into the basement. And it didn't take long before they found a spot of ground in the southwest corner of the room that was definitely recently disturbed. They began digging, like, pretty easily, it was moving away, and Geyer said, And after going down about one foot, a horrible stench arose.

So they were convinced this is it? So Geyer began digging with his hands, like ripping out dirt, and they were able to unearth a tomb, they said. The deeper we dug, the more horrible the odor became. And when we reached the depth of three feet, we discovered what appeared to be the bone of the forearm of a human being.

With the help of the undertaker, the local undertaker B.

D. Humphrey, B..D. Humphrey, the local undertaker he should be. Yeah, absolutely.

No other career path, I will not question that ever. Nope, B..d. Humphrey for life.

Ever, um, Geyer and the detectives were able to unearth the two bodies in the basement. They were very decomposed and were actually a little bit injured from being exhumed as well, because it was not like a very put together exhumation. But I'm glad that they were able to be located so that they could actually be put to rest and they were able to be. Um, put into two separate coffins, which is good.

They weren't just dumped in one thing that's good. Um, yeah, it's really sad, but um, with the body so badly decomposed, that's going to be a problem. But enough that they were able to put two and two, um. The children's remains were taken to the morgue for examination. And Geyer sent, um, a telegram to the District Attorney, Graham, letting him know that he should definitely proceed with murdered murder charges against H.H. Holmes. Unfortunately, the remains of Howard Pitezel, the third child, were never discovered, and people believe that he was probably scattered or buried on the property where he was actually murdered. Oh, that's terrible.

Now, after the bodies of Alice and Nellie were uncovered, Holmes's guilty plea in the fraud case became kind of a problem because the girls had been killed in Canada. So, Holmes would need to be extradited to Toronto in order to stand trial for the murders. And once he'd learned of the discovery, Holmes claimed he was traveling at the time that the girls were killed. And he couldn't have possibly done it, which Georgiana verified. I don't really like her, Yeah, I'm not a fan. Instead, Holmes said, the Pitezel children were killed by a man named Hatch.

Is that your alter ego? He described this man as a mythical sort of person, and I'm like, I'm sure he was mythical, cause he doesn't exist. Um, and a very disreputable character, Mr.

Hatch was apparently a friend of Minnie Williams, according to him. Isn't everybody? And he'd reluctantly given the girls to this man during a stop in Buffalo. You wouldn't leave them with their father, but you gave them to a random man named Hatch.

Yeah, and he had instructed Hatch to take them with Minnie to Europe. Now everybody's just hanging out in Europe. See, he is obsessed with Europe, I will say that.

Uh. When Superintendent of Police Lyndon heard this statement, he replied That man, Holmes is the most infernal liar I've ever been brought in contact with. His willingness to plead guilty to the charge of conspiracy led us to think that something must be back up the case. So the discovery of the two bodies pretty much confirmed to all the news outlets and the public that H..H. Holmes was definitely a multiple murderer at the time.

It was not known as a serial killer. Within days of that discovery, newspapers went wild around the country, and Chicago investigators and citizens started digging around the rubble of the castle. Because, remember, it had burned not all the way down, but part of it had. But they were going to try to attack more on. Chicago was looking for evidence of Minnie and Nanny's remains at the castle and on July 19th, two detectives who were looking through the ashes that were technically used to be the basement. Um, they found an old stove, and when they looked in the firebox of the stove, they discovered a quantity of charged, um charred human remains and a watch chain formerly owned and worn by Minnie Williams. And they burned their bodies in the stove.

That's terrible. At the time of the whole crime spree and the arrest and all that. Newspapers like, especially like the Metropolitan Papers, were not held to, like, very high standards. Yeah, I could see that and there was a lot of competition among them. They wanted to be the one with the most readers.

So this would definitely lead to some leaning towards, like tabloid kind of reporting. Um, and they were a little bit more willing to exaggerate and fabricate. You know what's sad? So many still around today do the same thing. Like, how often do you find fake shit when you're researching? And you're like, why does no other article say that?

Yeah, it's like, what now? Holmes knew this, and he almost was kind of, like, eager to play along with it, of course.

He would give outrageous statements, contradictory statements, like things that would like make him like the most bloodthirsty, ruthless killer, leaving bodies all across the country. Like, that's another reason why I don't think he would have left out that he was Jack the Ripper. I think this would have been the time he would have been. Like, by the way, you know, those crazy murders in Whitechapel, yeah.

Seems like a big part to skip, but a lot of papers did operate the way they should on fact. Um, but they would definitely still kind of like, sensationalize the whole thing, cause how can you not? When Julia and Pearl Conner's disappearances were connected to Holmes, finally, in the summer of 1895, the Chicago Chronicle had this to say. Have two more victims of murder been added to the long list to Holmes's credit?

Mrs L. L. Conner and her daughter are now supposed to have been killed by the swindler. Holmes is said to have coerced the woman to deceive her husband and to aid his general schemes of villainy.

Mrs Conner then lived with Holmes, but they quarreled frequently and she threatened to expose him. She disappeared in the fall of 1893 with her daughter, and friends believe that they have been removed by Holmes, where the woman could not possibly appear against him. So factual, but it's just the way they presented, it's very sensational.

Yeah, cause like we don't know why he did it, like we don't know that. She threatened to expose him. We don't know any of that. You just added that in as like drama.

And how, like, how would you even prove that? exactly? why would you write that if you can't prove it? That's the thing like, cause.

It just sounds more like whoa. But meanwhile, investigators in Philadelphia, Toronto and Chicago, and every other city that Holmes had been spending a ton of time in. They were connecting the dots between unsolved crimes in their cities. And this guy slowly unraveling this whole complex crime spree that he had been on for eight years at this point, it's fucking wild.

Soon, there was a connection made between Holmes and Emmeline Segrand, and they were able to attribute her disappearance to him. Investigators and reporters had also been digging into Holmes's personal history, and that's where they learned about his fascination with dissection and chemistry.

And obviously those personality traits added with the crimes. It's a recipe for just a wild tale now. Holmes was indicted in early September 1895 for the murder of Benjamin Pitezel. He entered a plea of not guilty. And when the judge asked, How will you be tried? Holmes said By God and my country, which meant he wanted a jury trial.

In the time between the indictment and the trial, Holmes took a lot of advantage of the public. He manipulated the hell out of people. I can see that. In early October, he published his own supposed autobiography, entitled Holmes's Own Story. Cue up Ashley Simpson.

Exactly, the book was an alleged chronological history of Holmes's life, all the way to incarceration. It was just bizarre all the way through. Some of it's real, for sure. Do you think he was losing it at the end?

No, I don't think he was losing it. I think he was very much together. I think he was just a fucked up human being. I think he was enjoying it. This is all he wanted was to be something.

Now, the trial began October 28th, and from the start, it was pretty clear that Holmes's defense attorneys were out of their league. In fact, although they had previously agreed to the trial date set by the judge. When the day came, his counsel made quote one of the most desperate fights for postponement ever witnessed in a criminal trial. Holy shit, I really don't have plans that day.

Holy shit, he said. If they leave the court, they will be punished as lawyers are punished for disobedience. And cancel your fucking plans for doing a trial. They weren't able to withdraw the case for that day, but they didn't technically have to participate either.

And they didn't, oh no, they just sat quietly and let Holmes basically act as his own defense attorney.

And we're like, Oh, I don't know what to say. They were like, we don't really know how to defend this man. So if the real slim shady would please stand up, you know what that guy said? Sanctions?

That's the only reason I'm here, so I'm just going to sit here now. In his opening statement, District Attorney George Graham laid out his case. And he told the jury quote he would prove that Holmes had killed each of the four peitzels, who were not alive, to be called as witnesses, and that he had tried to kill the rest of them too. And he presented a very strong case, he used a lot of witness testimony and anyone surviving in the family, those who had seen Holmes with Benjamin and the children before they all disappeared, they all came up to say something.

Holmes, on the other hand, just kind of like, made outrageous claims about the prosecutor attempting to prevent him from seeing his quote unquote. Wife Georgiana. It was all very preventative and performative. It was not helpful for him at all.

The man who'd gone to the patent laboratory that day to speak about his inventions and ended up finding Peitzel's body, he was called to testify. And on the stands, on the stand, Holmes grilled him about Benjamin Peitzel's drinking habits and other subjects that he couldn't know anything about. Like he, he didn't know him. He's like, I just know I had a patent, he was.

So he's sitting there grilling him, being like, Well, he was a drinker, you know that, and he's like, I literally don't know that, I don't know this man.

No, I did not know this man, I didn't actually even know his name. And he's asking him all these details and he's like, my guy, I don't know this man. All I know of him is the couple of conversations I have with him.

And he was not drunk, so like, I cannot confirm that. Got nothing for you. And then Holmes just demanded that all the witnesses be removed from the courtroom, and the judge was, like, overruled.

Like, it was literally just like, No, no.

So on the third day, Holmes's second confession was read aloud for the jury. Because, remember, he has, like, 85.

And in this one, he claimed that the body was Benjamin Peitzel, but Benjamin Peitzel had died as the result of suicide. The confession was followed by what was likely the most damning testimony of the trial it was given by Carrie and Desi Peitzel. Oh, that must have been horrific.

She positively identified Holmes as the man who conspired with her husband and dragged her around the nation in search of her children. And she spent hours on the stand, and it was just like heartbreaking. She identified the unsent letters found as being from her kids, The New York Herald reported. Quote Her appearance spoke of deep poverty.

It was as if all her emotions were dead, she seemed incapable of suffering or feeling anymore. When she looked at Holmes, she seemed not to even see him like she was. Just. I mean, she had been through it at that point. And then to have all those fucking letters to read when she lost all of her children.

I can't even fathom that. And all of the letters were just like, why aren't you writing to us? Yeah, like, she's like, they thought I wasn't writing to them. That's like to know that they were in that kind of pain.

Like, he poisoned them against me at the end, right? They died thinking I wasn't, I didn't care about them. That poor woman, I don't know how she went on after.

She was a very powerful witness for the prosecution. Um, and when they put her against Holmes, it definitely helped out as well. After several days of testimony and tons of crazy media reports. The things that made Holmes such a successful criminal, like such successful killer and conman and frauder, his ability to lie confidently, have no remorse. And just so unbelievable amounts of chaos. Everywhere he went, they were kind of taking a toll on the jury, like the jury was feeling it.

I could see that he had told so many versions of the same story, and he had made such a complicated and incoherent set of stories and lies. That they were kind of just like, Uh, at the end of it, like they don't even know what to think. It must've been so hard to follow. Yeah. So in the end, they were much more inclined to believe the prosecution than they were to believe his bullshit.

Of like, clean case from beginning to end. And they were like, You're just bizarre, I know I like, but you've confused me. And he probably seemed like a madman at that point. Oh, yeah.

And on the final day of the case, Graham presented his closing arguments. And he just wrapped up the evidence and all the testimony. And Holmes and his defense attorney or his whole team, they just had the same weak arguments. You know, the mysterious strangers like Hatch taking the children to Europe and Benjamin Peitzel committing suicide? All of this was supposed to put in reasonable doubt. It wasn't necessarily painting Holmes as innocent, right? It was really just putting reasonable doubt, and it wasn't even good reasonable doubt. They were just like, I don't know.

I still think he's shitty. So judges are supposed to remain pretty impartial, but this judge pretty much let his opinion be known. At the end, I feel like they all kind of do at the end, yeah. And he sent the jury out saying this. I will say that it is such a remarkable.

It proves the truth of the old saying that truth is stranger than fiction. First, the story, which Mrs Peitzel told upon the stand, be true, and there seems to be no reason to doubt it. No novel that was ever written contains a story as thrilling as that which was told here upon the stand. Concerning the manner in which this man lured her around the country in a deceptive and fruitless hunt after her dead husband. Which is like, Oh, at the end, he should have literally been like, wait, wait.

Oh, you should have been like, you are now dismissed, right? Get out of here, go, go on, get, go on. So the jury returned to the courtroom at 9 p.m. that evening. I know I said, PM that evening.

That's annoying. Uh, I wasn't even going to yell at 9 p.m. Um, I was just like, end of statement overtime, um, this is what's funny. So they returned a verdict guilty.

Yes, and it was later learned that they spent all night in that jury room. They didn't come out until 9 p.m. But the jury actually had made their decision. Like right away, like they walked into that room, they were like, we're all thinking it.

And they were all like, Hell yeah, and then they were like, but you know what? We just needed to like, keep up appearances, and we also wanted to eat dinner. So we sat in there and pretended it was this big, long thing, but they all knew.

Damn, they were just having a pizza party. they just had a pizza party, uh. After the trial, a lot of them said when they were asked by reporters, what?

He said that he just seemed to know too much about how to kill a man with chloroform. That'll do it, and it's like, Yeah, yeah, I would say so now. When this was read out loud, Holmes was shocked. Well, because he's a narcissist, he had spent his whole life conning, manipulating, lying and getting away with it.

And now he's done, done for. On November 30th, he went back to the courtroom for the sentencing phase, and his defense attorneys attempted to argue for a new trial date again. That is that the only thing they argued for.

They said that Holmes had to act as his own defense for much of the trial. And he was largely unprepared. And it's like, That's on you, my guy. You also were largely unprepared and Judge Arnold overruled.

And, he said, it is not within the power of persons accused to say when they will be willing to, when they will be willing to be tried. Or to defeat a trial by dilatory, dilatory motions and practices such as were resorted to in this case. So he's like, fuck off, I'm not giving you time to make a better case for yourself. And so he said, So he literally looked at them, went no, and then he looked at Holmes and said, You will be hanged by the neck until dead.

So Holmes's defense lawyers obviously went about the appeal process and they said they will go to the highest court if necessary. And then they said, This is literally my favorite thing. They said I shall enter at once upon the preparation of papers for an appeal, when I shall have them ready. It is impossible to tell, but no time will be lost. I love that, like, I will get those papers done to stop you from being killed.

I will do it at some time, but I cannot say when. Don't worry, though, I'm going to do it at some point. Hang tight, no pun intended.

I will get there, I don't know when. Don't hold me to it, like, it's literally just like what that's like me returning a phone call.

You can't say like next week.

Don't overcommit. They were literally like, we are going to set about at once doing that, but I don't know when I'll finish. So I think they were air signs, I think they were like, Ooh, works yucky.

Leave that door open. I don't want a deadline, no? And they were like, Well, your client's going to be hanged though, and they were like, I hope we get there in time. But no, I will not commit to that.

I kind of love it, like, Wow, don't ever commit to anything. So the appeal did go through. It finally came on February 3rd.

Um, and George Graham and Holmes's defense team were in the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania. I'm surprised they were like, Yeah, we'll entertain this, they made it so. Holmes's defense argued that a lot of the testimony used to convict so Holmes, and this is quite a stretch.

I was like, Well, you guys did do your homework. They pull a muscle. They said that it came from his wife, Georgiana Yoke, which would make it privileged testimony that shouldn't have been admissible in court. I bet they found a couple of loopholes. This was very overruled by Judge Arnold's, who said on the ground that a prior marriage nullified the union between Holmes and Yoke. It wouldn't. It does not privilege because they're not husband and wife.

I also love that. He was like a prior union, I'm like, how about several prior unions? It's just like, Oof, yeah.

You tried guess that Bigamy came back to bite you, my guy, like that didn't help for you. And after hearing arguments on both sides, the court sided with the prosecution and said that. Georgiana Quote did say that she had gone through a marriage ceremony with this man. But she does not say that she is his wife, she merely says that she was imposed upon.

You know what I think she was? she was, she remains to be imposed upon. So, the Supreme Court decided to uphold the conviction, of course, and the death sentence, and he had no other appeals. And a date of May 7th, 1896, was set for his execution. In the meantime, Holmes was now going away from the whole I didn't do it thing.

And he's now just enthusiastically embracing his villain role. He's like, you know what, I've officially entered my villain era. He sure has. And between his conviction and execution, he confessed to a ton of crimes, including at least 100 more murders.

Uh, but not the Jack, the Ripper ones. He would scale it. I thank you. That's the thing he's throwing that shit up to, like 200 and something, but he's not going to include the Whitechapel.

Nah, no, it doesn't make sense. He later would scale it back, but then he'd pump it up again, scale it back. So you don't know, just depending on, like, the direction of the wind, and I guess. A confession was commissioned by the Hearst Corporation in April 1896, titled The Most Awful Story of modern Times Told by the Fiend in Human Shape.

I don't know if I would want to hear the most awful story told by the Fiend Who? That's a really good way of describing an asshole, though a fiend in human shape. I do like that, I like that.

Um, he gave detailed accounts in this confession of the murders of Julia and Pearl Connor, Emmeline Segrand, Minnie and Annie Williams, the whole Pitesel family. Um, and then he added 18 more murders onto that, which everybody was like, Oh shit, okay, he really did that. But unfortunately, those other 18 are questionable.

Because, uh, at least two of the people he claimed to have murdered, Kate Durkee and Robert Leacock, they were still alive. They were found to be alive. Stop it and fine.

So I knew it. So this motherfucker, he was saying, the murder people are still alive. He was definitely going to claim the Jack the Ripper murders if it had ever been planted in his head. Hundo, I tell you right now if somebody came to him during this shit and said, Hey, did you hear about that?

Jack the Ripper murders. What do you think about it? Nobody knows who did it. He would have been like, that was me.

Everybody, he just didn't, nobody planted that seed in his head. But Holmes was apparently paid $7,500 for that confession, and what the fuck was he going to do with the money?

He got sentenced to hang. Girl, you literally just said my next sentence, Oh shit, that was perfect. No, don't be sorry.

That was like, right here, like, what? like? That's why I was like, thank you, you literally just said exactly what I was going to point to.

We have been doing that. I think that happened in one of the last episodes, too, or maybe the rewatcher. That's been happening a lot lately. It has literally.

My next thing was going to be why he chose to do that, I don't know. He was scheduled to die in a month, so I don't know what that money would have done for him. But maybe it was kind of just like a fuck you like.

Here's this money you can't spend. Yeah, like, I'm okay, I guess I'll just take it. But then did Georgiana get it?

I don't think so, cause she's not his real wife. Damn, yeah, I hope. Um, what's the first one?

Cara, Clara, Clara, I hope she got it. And there's also Myrta with Lucy over in Chicago.

I hope they split it, I hope, like, I hope it was like the end of the other woman. And they all went on vacation together. Yeah, there you go, they all went on vacation together.

Um, so the other thing is, Holmes is like, very over the top about his remorse in these confessions, like he does show, like very theatrical remorse, like laughable in a way. So he might've been trying to salvage some kind of empathetic reaction. You know what I mean, like, I don't know.

Okay, I don't think so, though. I think he just liked doing it. Yeah, just like for the drama.

I think that was on the 7th, 1896.

Wait a second, is that today? Oh my God, is it?

Is that today, or is today the 7th? It's the 8th? Oh, okay, and weird and weird.

And weird, because I have in my next case that I'm covering May 7th, uh, it plays a date in my case. And I was like, Oh, weird, like I'm writing that a couple days before.

Oh, that's weird, and I literally wrote in my notes like, Weird. I'm writing this a couple days before. And I was writing this end part yesterday on May 7th, didn't even realize that's weird.

That's really weird, that's so fucking oh shit. So it was like, however many years from yesterday. Yeah, because I was writing my thing on May 6th and the May 7th thing came up, and I was like, Oh shit, tomorrow, wow, that's weird.

Tourist season is creepy, I think it's tourist season anyway. Well, on the morning of May 7th, 1896, he was taken from his cell at the county prison and he was led to the gallows. Goodbye. He denied, denied, denied now having killed Benjamin Peitzel and the children, and he insisted he only ever killed two women.

Lies. And I love that. He's just like guys, I just killed a couple women. Let's calm down, let it go.

Do we really think that this is necessary? I just killed some women. Remove this time. Come on neck. It was just a couple of broads, just a couple of broads. Everybody like, Oh my God.

Uh, when asked if he had anything to say before he was going to hang, what did this idiot say? He said Gentlemen, of course, I have very few words to say. In fact, I would make no statement at this time, except that by not speaking, I would appear to acquiesce in life, in my execution. I only want to say that. The extent of my wrongdoings in taking human life consisted in the deaths of two women. They having died at my hands as a result of criminal operations.

I wish to also state, however, so that there will be no misunderstanding hereafter.

In the life of any of the Peitzel family, the three children or father? Benjamin F. Peitzel, of whose death I am now convicted and for which I am today to be hanged, that is all.

He ended that shit with that is all I would have been like.

No wrong, that's all he did, he Miranda Priestly'd it. Yep, that's all, that's all. And then the hood was placed over his head and the lever was pulled. At 10 12 a..m, the door opened.

He dropped five feet. oops, that was supposed to break his neck. did not do that. Oh, karma's a bitch, Adam Seltzer writes. There were contortions for a minute, the body spun, the legs, swaying as though he was trying to break the rope.

The fingers opened and closed. Two spectators fainted. After a few minutes, the body settled. Shit. Ultimately, 15 minutes would pass before the physician felt comfortable declaring him dead. Wowza.

And then he wasn't cut down for another 15 minutes, so he stayed in that 30 minutes. Yep, uh, pretty gross. And when he was removed from the gallows, they immediately put him into a coffin. That coffin was placed in cement, which then had more cement poured over on top of it. And it was placed in a vault. At Holy Cross Cemetery, just outside of Philadelphia city limits.

Why the fuck would they bury him in Holy Cross Cemetery? It was his request for the cement to be poured over his coffin as well, because he was worried that it would be desecrated or things stolen. After he was interred. Which, I say, oh, the irony, I think that's how you use that word. Because he was 100 constantly stealing from the dead and using dead bodies and desecrating graves. And fucking up, like, and he's like, I don't want that, like, he's literally like.

I know how this works, I don't want to be an asshole. And they had to do it. I can't believe he was buried in a fucking church cemetery. Yeah, I'd be like, he's the actual devil, yeah. Before he was executed, Carrie Pite sells lawyer Thomas Fahey.

I think it is, um. He thought that when he died that he would leave a portion.

Because he, he was like, I thought he was gonna leave Benjamin's stuff to her. It's betting on a lot. Well, that's what I was like, you think this man that killed several people, including three of her children, was like, you know what?

Maybe I should leave. Well, I'm like, Thomas, you ever play craps? because I don't. I don't know if you'd be great Thomas.

I don't think you should play crap, you shouldn't enter a casino. Thomas, Don't you a betting man? You are not? Well, I'm feeling lucky today. Yeah, like so.

Once his body was placed in the vault, the report, the UH lawyer found out and told the reporters. I've been given to understand that Holmes died in Test State, which means died without a will in place. Oh right, although I did believe that he would leave a will. Devising the one-third interest in whatever estate he had to Mrs Peitzel. I fear now that he did not make provision for the widow of the man he yesterday denied killing. And unless.

To the matter of restitution, I will have to proceed upon different lines, which also just proves to you. Right there. He's claiming he didn't kill Benjamin and that he never would have hurt those kids, and that he loves the Peitzel family. Why didn't he leave the money to her? Yeah, exactly, so he frauded her, right? That's like, come on, even in death.

Yeah, it's like, no, come on. So, a few years after his execution, Georgiana Yoke married a man by the name of Chapman. And just kind of faded away. I bet she did, uh, yeah, just, you know what, though I? I was saying things like, Oh, I don't know about her, but he was beating Clara. I'm sure that's the other thing as well, and I should have thought of that.

No, but it's, I mean, it's all very convoluted and you don't know what's going on here. But I exactly. There was probably a lot of factors involved in here. And that's why I say, you know what? Georgiana Bye? Yeah, go live, go live, the rest of the life, you never just buy, go exist, right? Uh, Murda, Murda Holmes, Oh God, I would change my last name. In the beginning, she was kind of like, just backing his claims of innocence, because I'm sure she didn't want to believe it and again, was probably scared of him. And after he died, she went back to teaching primary school in Minnesota.

Uh, she eventually became the principal of more than 33 unorganized schools. Means Lucy, the daughter, followed in her mother's footsteps, and then together. Later, the two of them became Red Cross supporters and volunteers during the First World War. Hell yeah, so good for that, that's awesome.

After his arrest. Clara Mudgett I love it, we got like Clara Mudgett, Murta, Murda Holmes and Georgiana Yoke, Yeah, and then Georgiana didn't get it. So Clara Mudgett actually was able to avoid actually speaking to the press or anything, and lived out the rest of her life in Tilton and their son, Robert, left New Hampshire and eventually became city manager of Orlando, Florida, until he died in 1956. Wow, yeah, I was like, not that long ago.

I know well I was, but but like, not in the grand scheme of things, yeah, um. And investigators and reporters have always tried to link him to more crimes, like, you know, unsolved murders, more frauds, cases, all that they haven't been able to connect. Anything really like, hard to him, right? I feel like we can, though, I feel like we can, I feel like it's gonna come, we're gonna hit more.

I feel like we don't know the extent of what he's done. I could see, I really feel that way. I'm much more interested in the Jack or the Ripper case and finding that out. But I think that this is also a very interesting one. And I think if people really give it, it's a due diligence. I think we could learn more. Probably, um, but um. In August of 1896, way back then, the murder castle mysteriously caught fire again and it burned to the ground.

Interesting, yeah, so it's gone, and I think now there's like a post office on it, uh, where it was should have been like a park there. I think it's a post office, so I think it's just like an innocuous post office. Sitting there. The post office is the worst it is.

So it kind of like, you know what, the vibes are not great. Yeah, so there's that. I wonder if there's any reports of it being haunted at all. That was actually the next thing I wanted to look into, and I think I might look into it a little bit. To just be like, yeah, just be like, a fun little like. Look back on it to see if anybody has any things about it. Um, but that is the tale of H.H. Home, Herman, Webster, Mudgett, and now, good job.

I'm going to sleep nighty night. Good night, damn, that was crazy. Shout out to you, shout out to Dave. Yeah, that was a complex.

Shout out to Myrta and Clara, shout out to them Oofy, shout out to them, and poor Minnie and Nanny Williams. poor all of them. It's just really sad, Pearl.

Yeah, feel bad for Carrie, feel bad, but that fucker is gone now. I know I wonder what ever happened to Carrie. Yeah, I know I didn't find anything. She probably, just she was probably get me the hell out of here.

Oh God, but wow, that was terrible. In conclusion, he is not Jack the Ripper. That's violent. Um, yeah, so you guys have been wanting that one for, uh, five years, I'd say, and I've been waiting for the time. I just knew it was a real deep dive, so I wanted to give it the time it required.

Yeah, he was from New Hampshire, right? yeah, my um. Next case that is occurring is also in New Hampshire. Wow, that's weird, weird, and I didn't plan for that. Yeah, that's really weird. And it's also kind of fun that he was caught in Boston because I was like, bye bitch.

I don't love our city, was like, that's true, that's true, I just don't like that. He had his feet on my ground, but and it was also our city who was like, that sounds great to arrest him. I'm so I'm like, fully down with that. But you're gonna have to get me another warrant so I can keep that fucker so we can extradite his ass.

Boston Strong baby, just say, if Boston was like, do your job, okay? Bean town. Well, as always, folks, we hope you keep listening, and we hope you keep it. Weird, but not so weird that you're like Elena. And you have to revisit the Dear boss letter for another time. And then you also have to cover this in five parts. Because wow, she's so crazy, guys, I'm.

She says, probably, but she means definitely forever.

I'll just see the whippers, yeah, whoa, whole circle, bye-bye.