JRE MMA Show #144 with Jared Cannonier
2023-08-02 02:14:23
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We're up, here, we go, Jared Caranier, ladies and gentlemen. Hey, what a fucking crazy couple of weeks of fights it's been, man. There's so much to talk about. You know, this last main event, oh my god. I'm still, I'm still like, in shock.
The Justin Gaethje head kick knockout. Yeah. Dustin Poirier, I'm like, oh my god.
I mean, we all knew that that fight was going to be tremendous. Yeah. Something big was going to happen in that fight. So, when it did and how it happened, it was beautiful. Beautiful execution of that technique by Justin Gaethje to get that head kick off.
It was beautiful. It landed beautifully. And he followed up nicely. Well, there was no follow up. He was on his way.
I think the ref stopped him.
I think he did land one hammer fist.
Yeah.
But, yeah, it was perfect. It was a direct mirror image of Leon Edwards' kick. Yeah. On the opposite side, in the same place.
In the same arena, yeah. Crazy! Yeah, that's crazy.
Crazy!
Something's going on there.
Oh, man. There's, I'll tell you one thing, and you can tell me if this is, if you feel it as a fighter. But there's something about the energy in an arena when you go to a place that really appreciates that you're there. Because, like, we're in Vegas a lot. You guys fight in Vegas all the time.
People, they get a little used to the fact that the UFC's there. Yeah. But when you bring it somewhere like Salt Lake City, they get fucking hyped up. Those people were there for the first fight of the night. The place was packed.
And there's this wild feeling in the air. Like, everybody's excited. Does it, as a fighter, does that affect you?
Well, absolutely. You know, when you hear the crowd reacting to the fight.
Pull the mic right in front of you.
Yeah, when you hear the crowd reacting to the fight in itself, you know, you get energy from it, you know. I get invigorated by it. Or I get checked by it, you know what I mean? If the guy's doing something good and the crowd's loving it, I'm going to put a stop to that. So, I like to take control of it, in a sense.
But, yes, it is a, it's a.
It's a factor.
Yeah, it is a huge factor. For some. You know, for some, it isn't. Some people can just stay focused and stay on the rails and handle their business, you know. But I like it, you know.
But I like fighting in the.
Do you like the apex as well?
I like the apex as well. Because I find that fighting in the apex is a bit more personal, you know what I mean? I can hear my opponent breathing. I can hear his exertions. I can hear his corner.
I can hear my corner a little bit better. You know, there's still a crowd there, and you can hear them, so you still get the feel of a crowd. You know, although it's not that big. It's not as big. But, you know, but you can hear everything.
You can hear the commentators, too, you know.
I feel like when I'm at the apex, I feel, like, lucky. Like, oh, I'm lucky to be one of the people to be here. Like, when Francis fought Stipe at the apex, during the height of COVID, I was like, we are so lucky. We get to be here. live for this.
There's only, like, 30 people in this place.
That's that thing, man. It makes it feel personal. Yeah. I guess it's personal for those in attendance as well.
Yeah, well, yeah. Those in attendance and even people watching at home, I think you get a sense of that. Yeah. From that. Like, it's like you're watching, like, a fight in a gym.
Yeah. You know? It really is. It's like a high-tech gym. I mean, that's kind of what they did.
That's kind of what the UFC did. They just made their own gym and they made their own arena. Yeah. A little intimate arena. And it's great for Tuesday night fights, too.
Yeah.
The contenders. You can just go there and handle business and then go back to whatever else you was doing.
Yeah. And the PI, like, putting something like that, such a high-tech, like, state-of-the-art gym where guys can do their camps there.
Yes. The PI has been a goldmine for a lot of guys, especially those guys in Vegas. I've used it a few times, but I don't really get up there too often, you know? So, but I can imagine if I did live there, I'd be in the PI all the time. Maybe once, twice a day.
They really help guys scientifically cut weight correctly, too. Give them an assessment of whether or not they can do it and be healthy when they're doing it. Yeah. That weight-cutting game is a crazy game. And you are, you got a wild career, man, because you start off at heavyweight, you go down to 205, and now down to 85..
Has anybody else done that and been as successful as you? I don't think so.
I don't think anybody's, I don't think anybody's gone down, you know? Conor McGregor's gone up. He hasn't been as successful, but he's just successful in anything he does, you know? Right.
But I'm saying, like, has anybody ever started out as a heavyweight and gotten down to become an elite middleweight?
No.
Well, Vitor's gone up. He's fought up at heavyweight.
Oh, yeah. He did.
He's fought up at light heavyweight.
Middleweight would have been his correct weight class, I think, if he started today. Like, what he wound up in, I think that's the correct weight class, with weight-cutting.
Well, I would say the same thing about me, too. I'm not no natural heavyweight. Right. And I knew that while I was fighting heavyweight. I was just an undisciplined heavyweight, if you will, you know?
Well, you probably walk around at heavyweight all the time.
Well, absolutely, yeah. I think a lot of us middleweights walk around at light heavyweight or above the light heavyweight level.
Like, what is the heaviest you get when you're walking around?
Be honest. As a middleweight now? Yes. The heaviest I've gotten was 125.. No, 225..
225.. Yeah.
So I'm about 220 right now. But I haven't been back to training as consistently as I would like to be.
It's so crazy that you say that so casually. Because you look great. You look super fit. And the idea of you being able to lose that much weight is so bonkers.
Yeah. Well, you know, water weighs a lot. You know what I mean? So I burn a lot of water.
Well, that's also you – there's like a – I guess they break it down when you do it with someone like, you know, that's a real expert in dehydration. They break it down like how much muscle mass you have. And the more muscle mass you have, you can actually – muscle is mostly water. You can suck more. That's why guys like Yoel Romero were able to make, you know, 185 when he's a big guy.
Yeah. He's fucking big. Yeah.
Just a thick thing. From top to bottom.
The idea that that guy's 185 for even more than 13 seconds. Yeah.
Well, not anymore, right? Not anymore. He's like 205..
Yeah, now he's doing 205.. But, you know, he's a top contender at 185 for a long time. Yeah. Without weight cutting.
But that was a hard weight cut for him, though, right? Yeah. Because he was so big, I would say. But, you know, I was never there for any of them. So what do I know?
When you do yours, how far out do you just start to change your diet? How much time, like if the UFC calls you up and says, We want you to fight for a world title in two weeks.
In two weeks?
You can't get down there.
In two weeks? I haven't done it before, but I'm sure I could. Hell yeah, I could. Right?
But you wouldn't want to. Ideally, what would you want to? How much time do you need to get all the way down to healthy?
I would comfortably four weeks at the very least. You know what I mean? But six weeks, to be the, you know, is the general consensus for fight camps. Eight weeks for those who want to put a little extra on it.
Right, but like how much of the camp is centered around being careful with your weight? How much do you think about it?
I would say the whole camp. The whole camp. You know what I mean? Because when I'm not in camp and I don't have a fight coming up, I don't really pay attention to, you know what I'm saying, my portion sizes. And that's the big thing is the portion sizes.
And the quality of the meats that I'm putting in my body as well, you know? So I change from eating less red meat, for sure. You know, I eat more salmon, more fish.
And portion sizes, again, for me is important. The workout put, as long as I'm going to the gym, making my appointments that I've made for myself, and I'm going to the gym twice a day, I burn it off. And I sweat off a lot too, you know? So I can, as long as I got at least four weeks, I can make it happen. You know, where I'm at now.
But when I'm training, you know what I mean, I'm around 210, 215.. And all I have to do is change my diet. I'll drop about 10, 12 pounds in about two or three weeks. And then cut the weight during fight week.
Well, that's not that much, then. So then you really just cut in about 10 fight week? Yeah. So that's a healthy way to do it.
Yeah. No, I'm not showing up fight week at 220.. Yeah, no, absolutely not.
There's some guys that have done some wild cuts, some really wild ones. This episode is brought to you by Experian. How many subscriptions do you have? It might take you longer than you think to figure it out. These days, it's far too easy to get a load of subscriptions that you might completely forget about.
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Automatic shutoff and real-time alert capabilities will operate when the device is configured with the proper settings. Were you just like, did you just not prepare for this at all? Did you just try to wing it? Did you put it off? How did you allow yourself to come in so big and try to cut so much?
You just missed calculations?
Or maybe just to get called with an opportunity that they couldn't refuse.
No matter what state that they're in. Yeah, they couldn't have made it.
Yeah, they don't want to be the ones that say no sometimes.
Do you ever envision a time where the sport would have no weight cutting? Where they would just match people up by weight?
When there's no weight cutting?
No weight cutting. What if there was more weight classes, but no weight cutting?
I think that would be fine. I would love that actually. To make it more of a natural competition, you know what I mean? As opposed to people trying to get the edge on their opponent.
That seems like a crazy edge to agree to. I firmly believe that if weight cutting didn't exist, and then people started doing it now, they would try to ban it. They would try to say, don't do that. That's dangerous. You're 24 hours before you're going to have a fucking cage fight.
You're going to dehydrate yourself. To death's door? To death's door? I've seen some dudes that were on death's door. Really?
Oh yeah. Travis Luter, when he fought Anderson Silva, was the worst I ever saw a man when he was cutting weight. Travis couldn't walk. He was shuffling to the scale. Yeah.
And he missed weight. He missed weight in a world title fight. And he had a real shot against Anderson. Because his jiu-jitsu was phenomenal. Okay.
His jiu-jitsu was phenomenal. He took Anderson down and got caught in a triangle and got beat up.
But he was the closest I saw. I looked at that guy and I'm like, oh my God. If I found that guy in the desert, I'd get him right to the hospital. I'd be like, holy shit, bro, you okay? Have some water.
We're going to get you some water, man. Jesus Christ. That's what he looked like.
Wow, just out of it, huh?
Just sucked in. You're almost killing yourself. You're taking all the water out of your body. And then you're putting it back in. 24 hours before the most extreme physical combat sport that's currently available.
Yeah. Which is MMA.
Out of your vital organs?
In America. Well, you know, there's some left-way shit. They would disagree that there's more extreme.
But that's why I wouldn't do no extreme weight cut myself. You know what I'm saying? That's why I said middleweight is where I'm stopping. I could probably do well to weight with a strict diet over a period of time. Wow.
You would be a giant welterweight.
But that would be uncomfortable for me. That would be uncomfortable. I wouldn't be able to live the way I want to. I wouldn't be able to eat the way I would like. You know what I mean?
I remember I ran into Rumble. Rest in peace. I ran into Anthony Rumble Johnson in a hotel lobby. And I go, how big are you? And this is when he's fighting at welterweight.
He goes, I'm 230 right now. I'm like, no way. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. He was in town for the fights just to watch. But you couldn't believe how big he was.
And then he would make it down to 170..
Wow. Even if that was fight, that would explain some of his missed weight cuts showing up to fight with the 230.. I don't think the UFC now would allow something like that to happen, a fight like that.
Probably not. Well, there's so much more, you know, there's some more eyes on the fighter's behavior and what they're allowed to do and not allowed to do, which I think there's a lot of it. Like I was having a conversation with Jeff Nowitzki about it, like that they are trying to introduce things like peptides and allow fighters to use things that help them heal from injuries and give them exemptions for things like that, because it's only beneficial to the fighter and their ability to heal from injuries. A lot of people, at least anecdotally, there are some studies on BPC-157.. I don't know what the full data is, but I know that the doctors that I work with and the people that I know believe in it a lot.
And it used to be legal for UFC fighters. Then they banned it just recently.
Oh, I didn't know that.
Yeah.
It's a bummer. See, this is why I don't use supplements myself. I only use the stuff they give us from, like, Thorne Supplements. I think UFC has a partnership with them.
Right, and they're all third-party tested. Yeah. No bullshit in them.
Yeah.
So there are some other things like Element T's, hydration packages. I'll use every now and then. Those are great. How rarely do I take supplements? On top of that, I kind of even just take them consistently to get the benefit from them.
So there's really no point in it for me.
So do you have someone who cooks for you? Do you have, like, a meal service to use?
My wife. Your wife.
Yeah. There you go. That's perfect. Because I see some guys, they take it so seriously. They have, like, stacked up Tupperware containers that they get from a company, and it measures out all the carbs and the protein, and it writes it down, like, 50 grams of carbs.
Yeah.
We got guys like that in the gym, too, you know. Yeah. I think that's more of a convenience thing, you know. You don't have to stand over the stove for 30 minutes to an hour and a half cooking and preparing food and stuff like that.
Whenever I think about people that do stuff like this, I think about Fedor. Because Fedor used to fight. He had a big belly. You know, he didn't give a fuck about portion control. Yeah.
I mean.
He was very unassuming, the way he looked physically. But his demeanor said something else.
He was such a beast. I was listening to some. God, I can't remember who was talking about it on a podcast.
I'll try to remember.
It might have been Cejudo. I forget who was talking about it, but they were talking about. Oh, no, it was Rampage. It was Rampage Jackson. And he was talking about how Fedor was his favorite fighter, and he was recalling this moment where Kevin Randleman suplexed him and threw him on his neck.
And Fedor's expression never changed.
I saw that clip, too. Isn't that wild?
It's so true. Because he just, no matter what, in the heat of battle, just stone-faced. Never, no emotion, no, nothing. Stone-faced.
That just says he saw some hard shit as a child, probably.
Yeah, right? Something.
I mean, it definitely wasn't easy. Whatever he went through was not easy. But that dude, that is a hard man.
How did that fight end?
Look at that. He commorted him. Like, right after that. But look at the compression there. Yeah.
I mean, look at how he's landing there. That's crazy.
Fedor commorts him?
Yeah. Like, right afterwards. Yeah. You want to see it? It's pretty dope.
Yeah, yeah. It's pretty dope. See if you can find the finish. Yeah, he, when he was going down, he tied up an arm.
Okay.
Have you found it? It's only showing that he doesn't land. Oh. Just go, Fedor taps.
Randleman?
Yeah, Randleman.
I'm sure I've seen it, one point or another.
It was incredible. Okay, here it is. So, Randleman slams him. Oh, how did he flip him over already?
Position transition. Yeah. I want to see the transition. So, he takes him down.
Boom. Right?
Oh, this is the start of the fight here, yeah.
So, this is before, yeah, this is the start of the fight. This is before. he body slammed him. So, he took him down first.
I'd like to do a pride round. That'd be nice.
Do you like the idea of that? The 10-minute round? Oh, yeah. I think so, too.
Imagine, like, the option. There it is. Boom. Crazy.
That was knees to the head on the ground, too.
Oh, yeah.
Pride was a different beast.
Oh, that was a beautiful roll over. That was beautiful. That was beautiful.
And then he started throwing his own knees.
And then he got the Kimura. off of this, I guess.
Is that rampage?
Dude, those are hard shots from the top here.
These are fucking hard shots.
Oh, my God. I got him.
I got him. He's got an opportunity here to bring in some knees if he establishes himself better. Oh, here we go.
Damn.
Like, that dude does not care about portions.
He just eats whatever the fuck he wants and smashes people. Yeah. I wish I got to see that guy live. I have a regret.
You never seen Fedor fight live? No.
No, and all the guys from Pride, he was the one I would like to have seen live. I got a chance to see Crow Cop fight live a bunch of times. Yeah. But seeing that guy in his prime in Japan must have been wild. That must have been wild.
So you've been in this game for a number of generations.
Yeah.
If you were to map MMA as a sport, how many generations would you say we're in right now?
I guess it's the 30th year of the UFC, and an elite fighter, what's the average amount of years they can compete? Is it probably 10, average? Eight to 12.. Some guys can extend it. Randy Couture extended it.
I actually started late. But some guys extend that time period where you could fight as an elite fighter, but there's only a certain amount of time. So that's kind of a generation, right? So it's like 10 years. So I'd say we're at least three generations in.
But it's more like four or five, because the generations, they change in terms of the skill set. The skill sets improve. I was just having a conversation with a friend of mine about how people today, everything they do today, they get a chance to see all the people who have done it before. And it helps you get better. If you want to watch MMA fights, in 1993, when the UFC 1 was around, you couldn't see anything.
What are you going to find?
I watched my first MMA fight on a VHS tape.
Yeah.
Some people watching now don't know what VHS is.
Yeah. And those people that fought in those things had nothing to look at first. Yeah. They just went out there and did it. And they just were hoping karate worked.
Mm-hmm. You know? Wow. You know, they were hoping that judo was enough. They were hoping that freestyle wrestling was enough.
Talk about going in blind, huh?
I mean, those are the wildest of wild people. I mean, respect to the pioneers, like the Hoyce Gracie's and the Ken Shamrock's and the Dan Severns and Don the Predator Frye's. Like, those guys, those are the pioneers, man. Mark Coleman. There was nobody before them.
No. Nobody before them.
So they didn't know what to expect. They just knew that they had it.
They knew that they could get paid money to fight. Yeah. And so they were like, okay, for as long as this lasts, let's do this. And for a while, it looked like it was going to get kicked off cable. And then it did.
It got banned from cable, and you could only get it on DirecTV.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, that's when I used to get it. I got DirecTV specifically because it was the only way. No, it was before Spike. Before Spike? Spike TV was when all—that's when it really took off.
That was like 2005,, right? Yeah, but there was a long period of struggle with the UFC. Yeah. Both when SAG had it. There was so much suppression.
It was so hard for them to get into venues and get sanctioned, to have them in certain states. It's a grind. When you first started watching MMA, how old were you?
How old was I? When I first started watching?
Yeah.
So when you saw your first—.
I was in Alaska when I first started watching. When I seen my first fight, I was in Dallas. I was transitioning from college into the military, so I was about 21,, 20, 21.. I was 21,, yeah. So it was just a fight.
My mother, she, was adopting children, and she had this Ecuadorian, a Shaolin monk from Ecuador, an Ecuadorian who lived in the Shaolin temple and trained and lived that life, you know what I mean? He would go outside and meditate and practice his art, practice kung fu and stuff like that.
He found it on TV. I didn't even know it existed or anything like that. He was watching it one day, when I came in, and I sat down and watched it. I think I was watching—I can't remember the fight.
I believe it was Shogun and somebody.
But anyway, I saw the fight, and it didn't really pique my interest at the time, but I was interested in it because I respected the competitive aspect of it. I definitely loved martial arts, and I was just seeing these people fight and stuff, but I didn't see myself training at the time. At that time, again, I was transitioning from college to the Army, so when I get into the Army, they have a Modern Army Combatants program, which is like basic white belt jiu-jitsu, minus a lot of the stuff that we do in actual jiu-jitsu. But once I got my first hands-on experience with the martial arts, I was like, ooh, this is something I need to do with my vessel, with my body. This is something I'm meant to do, you know what I mean?
And even as a kid, you know, watching all the kung fu movies. The Ninja Turtles is big. I love the Ninja Turtles. But all the martial arts stuff, you know, it interests me and stuff. On top of that, my daddy, whenever I would go and visit him, he has a gym in his garage, a boxing bag, and me and my brothers would throw the gloves on and play around, not really taking it seriously as a martial artist, you know?
But once I did it in the Army, I knew this is something that I need to do with my vessel, something I have to throw myself, I have to ingrain into myself.
So that was in basic training. And then, luckily, in AIT, we had my AIT phase, which is our training phase for our job in the military. My AIT phase, one of my drill sergeants, was like a level three combatants.
had like a level three proficiency in combatants. I think it goes like one to four or five or something like that.
And there was a battalion combatants tournament that I could participate in. You know what I mean? So we were training for like a month, a month and a half, maybe two months of training basic white belt jiu-jitsu for the Modern Army Combatants thing. And I loved it, man. I was having fun.
I was learning. I was exercising. I was applying my mental capacities to something that I wanted to apply to, not something that I was ordered to apply to or something I was trained to apply to. It was something that I wanted for myself.
And it was one of the best times I had in the military, you know, one of the best aspects about the military that I liked. And I got all the way to second place in the tournament. I think I had like four matches. So I got all the way to second place.
And the guy who took first place was like some football athlete, just some buck-strong motherfucker, you know what I mean,
who was just faster than me, you know what I'm saying? My technique wasn't able to get it done. So I took second place by points in that one. So it was all good.
So that's the birthplace of your martial arts journey. Of my martial arts journey, yeah. So, in the Army Combatants Program, how much striking did they have?
Well, when you get up to a level three or four, I think that's when they start incorporating striking. And that's what I wanted to do throughout my military career.
So are they essentially teaching, like MMA, like how they're incorporating grappling and striking?
They weren't. There wasn't MMA. I think they did. When you get to the very tip top of whatever you're training, then they have like MMA. They combine it in MMA.
But usually it's separate.
Okay, so it's grappling or striking.
Or striking, yeah.
And then is it striking like Muay Thai style striking?
It seems a little bit like amateur Muay Thai. You know, they have the headgear and the shin guards, and there's no elbows and stuff like that.
Okay.
So they modify it, so I guess soldiers don't end up getting hurt and taken out of duty and stuff like that.
Yeah, but why would you remove elbows?
Well. They're too goddamn effective to remove. Like you want people to be proficient at elbows. You want someone in a hand-on-hand fight who breaks his hands to be able to throw elbows. Yeah.
And a person with really good elbows can do that, but a person who doesn't have good elbows is doomed.
It's funny. you said it because I broke my hand in the fight, and I had to finish it with an elbow. There you go. With elbows.
Yeah. I can't imagine why any effective system would want to remove elbows. You could give guys elbow pads. Yeah. You should have them, at least practicing elbows.
Obviously, take care of your training partners. Don't try to smash their face in.
Well, I think, again, you've got to think of it. like the amateurs. They don't want guys getting cut.
Right, in the fights. Yeah.
And it's the military. They want their soldiers to be soldiers, not world-class fighters.
Yeah, but if you're going to teach them how to fight, teach them all the way. Don't teach them Taekwondo.
That's what you want for your military, right?
Yeah, that's what I want. Don't teach them Taekwondo. Teach them Muay Thai. Teach them MMA. It's not that there's anything wrong with Taekwondo, but if you're going to train someone to fight, why would you remove elbows?
Put that back in there. You need to be able to stop someone that's coming towards you. Some dudes, when you watch elbow masters, dudes like John Wayne Parr, dudes that slice people up, San Chai, guys, you just know how to step in and smash people with elbows. There's a beauty to elbows. Yeah.
I'm actually increasing my repertoire with the elbows and stuff. I'm working with a few of the guys. Ben throws some nasty elbows in sparring. He doesn't wear elbow pads, but he has such good control and awareness of his distance that sometimes, and I'm not too spastic, so I'm not running into elbows either. So there's a little bit of control on both sides, so he can just barely, like, boom.
I'm like, oh, my God. I can only imagine the amount of damage he could have done if we were going at it. But I've been working with him. He brings it out of me a lot. Working with Ryan Diaz, who comes in and helps me out, shows me a lot of the stuff.
He knows a lot of Thais and stuff, so he's a Muay Thai specialist himself.
Did you ever see the fight between Nate Marquardt and Tyron Woodley in Strikeforce?
That was the last fight in Strikeforce, right?
Oh, my goodness.
I did see that one.
Oh, my goodness. I don't know if that was the last fight in Strikeforce.
I think that was the last event. The very last event, really? Yeah, I think that was the last fight, because that was the main event.
That fight was insane. That stoppage was insane. I mean, this is like video game stoppage. Right over here, the over-the-top elbows. Yeah.
Then you hit him with his elbow. Look at this. Uppercut. Boom.
Oh, my goodness. I mean, that was a video game stoppage. Yeah. People forget. They missed out on this Nate Marquardt era when he was at his prime, and that fight is a great example of it.
What year was that? Boom.
God, I'm not sure.
Because I remember watching that. I was a big fan of MMA at that point in time. Boom.
I mean, insane combination. Boy, I want to say, what year is that, Jamie?
That would have been like early 2010s, like maybe 11 or 12, or something like that.
Yeah, I was thinking. That makes sense. This episode is brought to you by Experian. How many subscriptions do you have? It might take you longer than you think to figure it out.
These days, it's far too easy to get a load of subscriptions that you might completely forget about. That's why I love services like Experian. It's like a personal assistant for your subscriptions. Experian can cancel over 200 plus subscriptions in categories like streaming services, meal kits, entertainment apps, and more. You can save an average of $270 per year.
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I like having a bunch of different organizations. Apparently, that's what I keep hearing. 2012..
2012, yeah.
Rockhold versus Kennedy. That was a great fight, too. Damn, a lot of great fights in Strikeforce. My God. Strikeforce was one of the few organizations where you could absolutely say that it stood, like, neck and neck with some of the best UFC fights at the time.
Yeah.
You know, like when Nate Diaz, or when Nick Diaz was running shit over there, when he had that fight with Cyborg. Like, when Nick Diaz had that crazy fight with Paul Daly. Insane fight with Paul Daly. And then Frank Shamrock and Robbie Lawler. Yeah, Robbie Lawler fighting Melvin Manhoef over there.
Remember that one?
I remember that.
See, like, you could say that, like, when Luke Rockhold was a champ over there and then became the champ in the UFC, you could say that, like, the level of fighter in Strikeforce, at the very peak.
Was at the level.
It was at the same level as the UFC. Like, Josh Thompson was over there. It was at the very same level. It was just elite.
I mean, we just got through watching that Woodley fight.
Last event they had. Gegard Mousasi. I mean, elite. Gegard Mousasi is a bad motherfucker. Jacare Souza.
Tim Kennedy. Ryan Couture, who's a bad motherfucker, too. Who's Randy's son. Josh Barnett. Daniel Cormier.
Jeez.
But Woodley went on to become, what, the World's Weighed Champion after that? After that knockout?
Yes. Yeah, no, Wilter. Yeah, after that knockout. When he entered into the UFC. after that knockout.
Yeah, after that knockout. It was quite a bit. That Jay Heron knockout.
Oh, my God. Yeah, that was a nice one.
Yeah, it's interesting. if you go back and watch the first UFC and if someone did, like, an analysis. Like, some egghead did an analysis of, like, what percentage better are elite athletes today? I would be very curious. Yeah.
I think we all would be curious. I think that would put into numbers, right? Yeah. Quantifying, you know, what we're actually doing with ourselves. Yeah.
I think we can probably put some direction on how to direct that trajectory, maybe even accelerate it.
I wonder if you can. I mean, it's so accelerated right now.
I mean, nobody's really focusing on it, you know? How many of us are focusing on combining all this stuff and progressing it to the level? And then it's only going to get so far, because you can only test it out against the current level of competition out there. So there are factors, limiting factors. But if we all focused on a certain thing, as opposed to if it was like a collective consciousness, focusing on it, like a think tank or some shit like that.
I think we could speed it up, you know?
Really?
I think so.
Like how, so? What do you think they could use to speed it up?
Well, there would definitely have to be – it would definitely be over a length of time. There would be a lot of training involved, right? Because – but I would say, with people focusing on it, like you got different experts at different fields. Right. Testing, shit, trials and trial and error and type stuff like that.
How science works, right? You get a bunch of ideas together. You test them out. You see – you document the results.
Yeah. I see what you're saying. But I also think that's a big part, and this is what a lot of people disagree with about martial arts, that it's an art. I think it is an art. I think people disagree because they don't like arts where people get hurt.
But I think it's an art. And I think everyone – it's something about whatever it is that draws them to that art, whether it's wrestling or it's Muay Thai, whatever it is that draws them to that. Right. And to me, like, you're never going to be able to fix that with numbers. You're never going to be able to quantify.
Like what drives someone to become elite, world-class striker and then learn how to wrestle? Yeah. It's a different animal. It's a different – it's a different – And you've got to let people figure out what their thing is. Some people, it's a jujitsu thing.
They just want to take people down and strangle them. And some people, it's like, no, they want to keep you on the feet and beat the fuck out of you. And you've got to let them figure that out. And it's like some of the best fighters are not necessarily the most balanced where they're great at everything. But they're so good at one thing that they can impose that, whether it's grappling or whether it's striking.
It's a really interesting argument. Like what's the best approach? Is it to be an elite specialist and then also an elite athlete that can pick up the other stuff quick? Or is it better to be, like, fully well-rounded, like Mighty Mouse, who's like the most well-rounded guy ever? He can do everything.
He can do world-class. Ground game, world-class, stand-up, world-class, everything. No holes. That's like the guy. If I had to look at, like, technique, for, like, all-time technique, Mighty Mouse is the guy.
Yeah, I agree. For sure. He can do everything. He's definitely the best all-around fighter.
He can do everything. Ever. And he was a ghost. He was in front of you, and then he was to the side of you, and then he was kicking you, and then he was shoving you, and then he was fucking dropping punches down on you, and then he had your back. It's like, whoa.
Yeah. He was a speed demon, man, with perfect technique and a library of information. And that relationship that he had with Matt Hume, like, Matt Hume, is a very, very intelligent guy and a very interesting guy when he talks about martial arts. He knows a lot about martial arts. Yeah.
And he was another one of those guys that was, like, early on, he was fighting in MMA. He fought Pat Militech in an MMA fight that I watched. One of those weird organizations that was emerging that we forgot the name of, like, World Combat something or another, you know? But, like, that relationship between, like, a great coach and a fighter, like a DJ and a Matt Hume, or, you know, a George St. Pierre and Feras Ahabi, like, this kind of relationship that happens with certain athletes, that shit is so important.
It really is. I mean, you've got to have a coach that's going to be able to communicate with you, and then you'll be able to communicate back with your coach.
So you go from army combatants, and what is the next gym that you join? Like, when do you start, like, taking MMA as a path?
Well, after I get out of the army, well, I was trying to do it in the army, but that wasn't a priority. So after I get out of the army, I relocate to Alaska. I use my skills that I acquired in the army to get a job with the FAA, and I get hired on in Alaska. So I relocate up there, me and my wife, and so we relocate up there. And as soon as I get up there, I mean, there's a lot of time in between my exit from the army.
I exited, what, 2008, December, and I'm in Alaska July 2009.. So in between that time, you know, I found it. I had the bug, so I found the judo gym, you know what I mean? I'm broke as a joke. right now, you know what I mean?
I'm on unemployment because I just got out of the military, and my wife is pregnant. You know, we found out two days before we had to clear post that we're pregnant. So it was a pretty harrowing time for us, you know what I mean? But I still wanted to train, so I found myself a judo gym. And I trained judo for about a month and a half, two months, and tried to pick up as much as I could.
In between that time, I was applying for the job, with the FAA, eventually going through all that hiring process of, you know, interviews and a bunch of other things.
We relocated up to Alaska, and as soon as we get settled up there, me and my wife and my newly born daughter, I'm looking for a gym, you know what I mean? And I find Gracie Baja, Alaska, that's up there, and I get into it. You know, I start doing jiu-jitsu. I'm like 300 pounds, you know what I mean, training and stuff. In between.
this time, in between my Army time in Alaska, I put on a bunch of weight, put on a bunch of baby weight.
So I'm training jiu-jitsu, you know what I mean, 300 pounds up there, throwing myself into this martial art. You know, I didn't even know about MMA. I wasn't concerned with myself about being in the UFC fight or anything at that time. But one of these days, I look up and see these guys are striking, you know what I mean? So that goes on for about a month or two, and I'm interested in it, and I wanted to get in shape first.
So I didn't just throw myself into everything the gym had. I just wanted to focus on jiu-jitsu. So I just did jiu-jitsu for a couple of months, and then opportunity came up, and I just did a couple of the MMA classes. And it was fun. I was hooked.
One thing led to another. I figured out. they, I found out they had a MMA promotion in Alaska, the AFC.
So I trained for about a year, from, like the end of 2009,, early 2010, to about early spring. It was about March 2011..
So where were you getting your striking in? You were getting your striking in?
At Gracie, Baja, Alaska.
So the guys that were striking there, you just joined in with them? Yeah, I just joined in with them. Was anybody like a...
Well, it was an MMA team.
Oh, so it was an MMA team. Yeah.
So they had an actual MMA team, and there was an MMA promotion. There was a few other gyms in the town as well.
So I just threw myself in. I couldn't do it at first because of work and stuff like that and just being home with my daughter.
But eventually I trickled my way into it and got hooked. It caused some friction at first, but me and my wife made the adjustments we needed to, which was either be close to work. Me personally, I either have to be close to where I work at or close to the gym, because that's where I'll be spending most of my time at.
How crazy is it when you think of that moment then, when you first started doing this, when you had to convince your wife, and now you're one of the top middleweights on planet Earth?
It is crazy to think about. Yeah.
Crazy. What a journey that is.
And it's hard to think about it as it being crazy, because I'm in the driver's seat, so it just seems like the road that I've been on. You know what I mean? Right. So a lot of people are astounded by it. So to go from, I guess, a regular guy to, like you said, the top middleweight in the world.
But I don't really see a seam in the transition. To me, it's just been, like, this is what I want to do, this is what I need to do. This is something personal for me. You know what I mean? So people go to church, it's personal for them.
You know what I mean? This is personal for me. This is personal development. Not only just doing martial art and what you see on the outside, learning how to do a move and be stronger than the next man, but the internal aspects of it is what really drew me to it, of being a martial artist.
Well, it makes sense when you watch you fight, because you're constantly improving. You always are on the path, which I think is very admirable and very difficult to maintain for a lot of fighters, to maintain their enthusiasm for the path. They'll have some setbacks, and then maybe they lose a little bit of enthusiasm from the setbacks, and it's hard for them to, like, re-gear up. But you always stay on the path. And, like, all of your fights, like, the Marvin Vittori fight was super impressive, man.
That was a super impressive performance. And it's just like you're getting better. It's like we knew that you were elite as a middleweight, but even through the fights that you've lost, you come back and you're better. every time you're better. It's like you keep seeing that the path and the hard work is paying off with every fight.
Yeah.
And, you know, that's interesting, because Coach said it in a very interesting way, that once you get to that top level, the improvements are incremental at best. You know what I mean? So it's hard to see them. Yeah. And that's one of the things he's impressed by with me as well.
He said, because I'm making semi-drastic, and I don't want to say drastic improvements, but I'm making some big improvements that are noticeable.
You're making some big leaps. The movement in the Vittori fight was noticeable. That was very impressive, that your movement was like, it was, there was much more activity going on. It was really technical. Yeah.
Setting him up really well.
And it's only going to get better, I promise you that.
I believe you.
For me, it's already gotten better, because I've moved on from that. Right.
And with a big fight like that and a big win, is there also, like, this, feeling, like almost like you've leveled up, like you've gone through, like you got affirmation. You knew it. You thought you were going to beat him. Vittori's one of the best in the division, for sure. Yeah.
He's a beast. That's another dude. Like, how the fuck does that guy make 185 pounds?
Yeah. He's a beast. Yeah. He's a house.
Yeah. I was standing next to him, like, how the fuck do you do that? He's so big.
His head's got to be like 40 pounds, right?
Pejeta, who just fought at 205 this weekend to beat Jan Blachowicz. When you're standing next to him, you're like, what are you really weighing? Probably 230 pounds. Yeah. He's gigantic.
He looks like he's 225 pounds when he's standing there. And I think he is something like that, right? They tested them the day of the fight to see how much weight he put back on.
It was like 22 pounds or something.
Something. bananas like that. Yeah. Yeah. What did he weigh, Jamie?
I think they'll show it. They show the before and after. Yeah. That fucking dude's good. He's good.
Yes. And now that he could defend on the ground, too. Look at that. 228.. Bananas.
Homeboy gained 23 pounds and had full endurance, man. He looked fantastic in that fight. That was a good fight.
When you think about it, though, is that really? I mean, that's like, what, two gallons of water plus some food? A gallon of water is like eight pounds. Is it?
Yeah, I guess. How much is a gallon of water weigh? I never even thought of that.
A gallon of water is like over eight pounds, I think.
8.34.. 8.34.. Okay. So, yeah, you're right. A little bit over two.
Two gallons.
Maybe close to three gallons of water. We're definitely drinking that much. We're definitely getting that after cutting weight.
Yeah.
Yeah. So, with him being that big, that's not really that big drastic of an increase when you think about the fact that we're – he may not be as dehydrated as he was at middleweight, but I'm sure he's dropping his weight, especially to get back up to 220..
I feel like –.
I think, when you dehydrate yourself, you really can really put down some water.
Yeah, no, I agree, for sure. And I think when you're a real big guy like he is, the benefits of that weight cut, without a doubt.
Yeah. I was like 215 when I fought. Vittori. Were you really? Yeah.
That's the most that I've put on.
Yeah? Yeah.
That's the most.
Did you do it on purpose, or was it just happening?
No, it just happened. I didn't do anything intentionally. The only thing I did intentionally was prepare a big jug of tea with some electrolytes and stuff in it that I carried around with me. That's the first time I've done that.
When you do something like that, do you sip it slowly when you first start taking it in? Because you're dehydrated for like how long?
I don't sip slowly.
Get it? Hell? no.
No, because I cut the night off. The most dehydrated I am, I cut the night off late that night, so I can just try to go to sleep and then wake up and go to the early weigh-ins. And that's how I do it. And I wake up and if I need to cut extra, there's still time to cut because I wake up early. I can't sleep the night of a weight cut.
That makes sense. Yeah, I've heard different people do it different ways, but I think people are realizing now it's better to just get up early.
To get up early and do it? Yeah. I think it would be better. You know what I mean?
You want to sleep. You just wake up. Yeah, you want to sleep hydrated.
You definitely want to sleep hydrated.
Because otherwise you're missing a night of sleep, for real.
No, you're absolutely right.
Yeah. It's like you're going to always dehydrate yourself, but you're going to miss a night of sleep because you want to be dehydrated earlier. Don't do that. You need that fucking sleep. It's just.
I really wish that there was a way around it, because I just don't think it makes any sense. And I know it's tradition and I know it's the fight before the fight, like John Hancock always likes to describe it as, but I just think it's unnecessary and dangerous. And I think it's dangerously unnecessary. Like there's no reason to have people almost kill themselves a day before a fight.
Yeah.
Well, I think it affects guys' chins. And Josh Barnett was saying that. Josh Barnett and I were having a text conversation about this. He said it absolutely affects your chin. when you get dehydrated.
Your brain doesn't hydrate as much.
You're not just dehydrating yourself. You're dehydrating your brain, your liver, your kidneys.
Yeah, you can't take a shot as well. Yeah. Yeah. So it's one of those things, man. It's like.
I just I feel like it's a legacy thing in the sport that I wish wasn't there anymore. But I do like to see a guy like you go from heavyweight all the way down to middleweight. I do like that because when you fight, I go, God damn, he's big. It's worth it. It's worth it because you could really be a bully in there sometimes.
You're a big middleweight. And it has its advantages. It has its advantages in durability too, I think.
You're absolutely right. I'm able to absorb a lot more, even though that's not my goal is to not absorb anything in there. Of course. But it's the nature of the beast. You can't really block them all, I suppose.
Yeah.
But same for guys like Vittori. It's like one of the things he's famous for is he can take shots.
Yeah, look at this man. Yeah, because I'll put some heavy leather on that guy and he was just looking at me like.
Yeah.
Like. Yeah.
No, he's a warrior. But that was a really intriguing fight for me, because I know he's elite and I know you're elite. But, you know, you just beat Sean Strickland and then you went right into that fight. I was like, this will show. You know, this will show where he's flying colors, man.
You just dominated him. That was, I think, your most technical performance. Do you agree with that?
I think the Anderson Silva fight was pretty technical as well.
That was very technical. That was very technical. That was very technical. That was very.
But that was mostly leg kicks and predominantly leg kicks in that fight. Yeah. You know, I think I was more disciplined in that fight, to be honest, because the goal was he's going to be hard to hit in the head. Right. Whereas, well, I think I'm comparing this one to the Strickland fight, not to the Victoria fight.
But I was able to make that adjustment. Okay, his head's going to be hard to hit right off the bat, so I'm just going to touch you down here. And I stayed to that and it only took one round to cause that injury.
Yeah, Anderson is, as far as I know, the only guy who successfully come back after that shin break. Yeah. No one else was able to do it.
Well, didn't McGregor.
Well, Tyron Spong.
Didn't McGregor fight?
No, he hasn't fought since the injury.
Oh, okay, he hasn't fought the injury.
But Tyron Spong, he's done it.
He injured, yep.
He had a horrible one against Gokon Saki. Horrible. Horrible. Same thing as Chris Weidman, Uriah Hall, same check, horrible snap.
But isn't he about to come back though?
Well, Tyron Spong became a boxer. He'll still do MMA. I know he had at least one MMA fight since then. But he was an elite kickboxer. He was elite.
He was so good. Yeah. And to see his shin snap like that, you're like, God damn. I mean, you would always think about it before you went to throw a shot. You would always think about the two years it took you to fucking regrow your bone back where you could throw kicks with it again.
Yeah. I wouldn't say it slowed my kicks down. Checks have done that enough. You know what I mean? Checks hurt enough or deterrent enough.
But, yeah, it definitely gives you something to think about, you know. It's definitely a scary factor.
It's one of the most horrific injuries in the sport, that shin injury. And it's happened. There's so many versions of it now on Instagram. Yeah. You find so many small shows where guys are doing it, accidentally breaking their legs.
I think Noguera getting his arm snapped was pretty horrific as well. That was horrible.
I saw another girl get her arm snapped in a jiu-jitsu tournament. Yeah. Same thing. Oh, God damn it, tap. I remember when Khabib had Michael Johnson.
And I remember thinking, just please tap. Please tap. Please tap. Just please tap. Don't make me see this, man.
Don't make me see this. Tap. He got you. Fight another day. Please tap.
Please tap. That fucking spiral arm fracture from that, Kimura is so nasty.
Yeah. Oh. And I hear those are, from doctors, I hear those are really hard to repair.
To heal. Yeah, hard to repair. You know, who knows if your arm's ever going to be the same again. Yeah. That's a rough one to come back from.
My friend Tom broke his arm playing basketball, like, what was it, like two years ago? Jamie? Two years ago. It's still fucked. He's still struggling.
His humerus or ulna?
What part did he break? He broke the top. He broke the top bone, like up here.
Oh, that's the humerus. Yeah.
It was big. Yeah. Big fracture. Yeah. Nerve damage in his hand.
I can imagine that one being painful, because not only is the break painful, but you got the weight of the arm pulling on that thing. Yeah. And that can make it hard for it to heal as well.
Yeah, dude. Injuries. Yeah. What's the worst injury you've had in MMA?
In MMA? I've torn – well, I didn't – in my MMA career, I've torn my pec training.
You know what I mean?
I think the worst one I had in competition, I mean, I broke my hand in competition.
Did you tear your pec in drilling or sparring?
It was just – we were initiating a warm-up, so it was a warm-up roll. Me and Ben. It was like a warm-up roll, and I was passing his guard. Ben Henderson? Ben Henderson, yeah.
Yeah. And he –.
Shout-out to the lab.
Yep. Shout-out to the lab. Oh, yeah, all day long. Lab, all day. You all know that.
Everybody knows what we do. So –.
It's great. Great gym.
It really is. Yeah. That's the whole reason why I quit my six-figure job and moved to Phoenix, Arizona. Yeah. But, yeah, he had a whizzer on my left arm, and I was passing to the right side, so I cleared the – I cleared his leg, and I went to pass his guard, and I went to – I was extended with my left arm because he had the whizzer, and I went to get strong to collect him up into side control, and as soon as I contracted that pec, it tore, just like that.
Three little rips, and it tore. That was February. I think that was during the – that was fight week for John Jones versus – who did his last fight at Light Heavyweight? Dominic Reyes.
Dominic Reyes, yeah.
So that happened in Houston at the hotel.
Wow.
And then I came back and fought. Yeah, that was 2020 before COVID, and then I came back and fought Robert Whitaker in Abu Dhabi.
Was it still fucked up?
No, the pec was fine.
Okay.
Shout-out to Ares Physical Therapy. Now you got me running around with all my shout-outs. now. Shout-out to Ares Physical Therapy. I've been hitting them up since the Anderson Silva fight.
You know what I mean? I've been working out with them, working out there, as well as working out at the lab. Those two combined have – you guys see my cardio. Those two combined has really propelled my career. But I came back after the pec tear to fight Robert Whitaker, and, look, not a minute into the fight, he throws his patented Reaper combo, one-two head kick, and breaks my left ulna.
Oh, man. So I ended up fighting this guy for, what, another two rounds, plus four minutes of the first round with a broken ulna, and I almost got him, too.
You should see the other guy, right?
That's one of those crazy freak injuries that, like, it, can always happen when you're blocking kicks.
But it was my fault. I extended my arm to block more reaction there, as opposed to being grounded and prepared and bracing and ready to absorb the kick. Like, oh, shit, kick. And the reason being because I was slipping his initiation. Typical shit.
We all see it happen all day long with Robert Whitaker. We all know that combination.
Were you surprised at the Drakus duplicy fight?
Oh, yeah. Who wasn't, right? I wouldn't say I was surprised, as if he doesn't have the capability to do what he did. Right. But it was still surprising to see it happen, right?
Yeah. Because we all think so highly of Robert. Yes. And his ability to go in there and fight at the highest level.
It was shocking.
I'm sure, you know, Drakus, he fucking opened some eyes with that one. Yeah. But, to be honest, when I look at that fight, when I was looking at that fight in the lead-up to it, that fight went exactly how I thought it could have gone. Really? I thought Robert was going to be the tactician that he is and pick him apart, you know what I mean, maybe hurt him with some shots and get a finish, or take him to a decision.
Or Drakus, who is a bus off, my words exactly, dude's, a bus off. He keeps going. You know what I mean? He doesn't slow down. He may look from the outside, look tired, but he probably doesn't feel tired.
to his opponent in there. I'm pretty sure he's putting some pressure on him. Yeah. And that's exactly what he did. And Robert began to wilt in the first round from what I saw.
Well, he got his nose fixed. now. He could breathe out of his nose. So for the longest time, the reason why he had his mouth open, he had no nose. Yeah.
His nostrils were completely closed off.
So he won't look exhausted, slack-jawed.
Always look slack-jawed. But he also would fight awkward too. I think it affected his cardio quite a bit.
That's for sure.
It is. But he used to get a little too overeager and he would like blitz, just run forward, which you can't do with a Whitaker. You can't do with Pejeta. You can't do with an elite guy. But he tightened all that up, man.
And he specifically tightened all that up for the Whitaker fight. That was a very technical fight. Dude, someone broke it down on Instagram, one of those breakdown sites. I forget who it was, whether it was Lawrence Kenshin or one of the other ones. But they were talking about his use of the right hand, like stopping Whitaker, and the right hook, stopping Whitaker as he was coming forward.
And that Whitaker has this like leap in style. And that, you know, they had figured out the distance for that. And that's when he started putting it on him. It was very technical, man. What he did was, you know, it was a very interesting fight.
I'm going to have to find that.
Because Whitaker is so fucking good, man. For him to beat him down like that, it's like, wow, you got to take that guy for real. You got to take that guy serious.
But that's what I saw. What I saw Drake just do to Whitaker, I personally feel, was the effect that I had on Vittori. Because I was in his face, putting pressure on him. You know, I was hitting him too. So I think that could be a bit of a difference.
But I think the pressure, the fact that Robert had to stay on, you know what I mean? Yeah. That does something to guys. Guys aren't used to being on the whole time. Right.
In their feet, like. Right.
Getting chased.
Yeah, sprinting. Yeah, right. It's like sprinting. I equate it to sprinting.
He can fucking crack too.
So Drake can sprint in there. Yeah. That's a good time. I'm going to keep that one.
Well, it's going to be interesting to see, you know, what happens with him and Adesanya.
Yeah. I mean, he's not fighting in September, right? Yeah.
So I don't know. I hear rumors that they're going to go with the Strickland fight.
Well, I think that is happening now. I'm sorry. That is definitely happening now. I'm sorry. Because Strickland, but they're in negotiations still though.
Yeah. Because I think Strickland wants more money. You know, I think there's, I don't know. I hope they work it out. That would be a good fight.
Well, I don't want to be Mr. Steal, Your Girl, here, you know what I mean? I know.
I was thinking that when you came on here.
But, you know what I mean?
Are you preparing for something like that? The possibility of something like that?
Well, when I get back after this, my diet is going to change. I'm going to prepare for somebody.
How many weeks is Australia? September 29th?
That's like five, six weeks, right? I think it's September 9th.
That would be just enough time for Jared Cannoneer to get popping again.
So that's what I'm preparing for. I'm preparing for the stars to align. Right. And me to go in there and win my title.
Who knows what's going to happen? If Sean is being difficult, you know what I'm saying? Mick, you know who to call. Dana, you know who to call. You know what I mean?
Y'all know Lou. Y'all know first round. You know how we handle business. Y'all know I'm not difficult. You know what I mean?
I think you guys pay me. good. I'm not going to ask for too much extra to go to Sydney. I've never been there. I think my contract is something that we agreed upon prior to these events occurring.
I think we can make something happen. So that's what I'm going to be getting ready for. You know what I mean?
Well, I definitely want to see you fight for the title, for sure.
Yeah. It's going to be a different thing. We all saw the first one, and nobody was too entertained by that, especially me. So I've made the adjustments, not only to make it more entertaining, because I know that's what people want, to be entertained.
Do you have to balance that out in your head, sometimes, like be entertaining?
I don't concern myself with being entertaining or anything like that. It's furthest from me.
Well, you are, fortunately. Your style is very entertaining, so you don't have to worry about that.
Well, it's just coincidental, right?
Right. Yeah.
If anything, I'm entertaining myself, because this is fun for me. You know what I mean? I'm going in there having fun. Right. You know what I mean?
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