vaping and the female orgasm, a talk with wendy zukerman [video]

You know what I'm a victim of?

Oh, I was not really. I mean, like, you know how? Like you backpedal your life story, and you're like, I was meant to be a science journalist. And there is, like, I did find, because now I live in Melbourne, like back in my hometown, and I did find a book that I wrote. When I was, like, in year two or something, that was like, how plaque forms? And it was like, basically what I'm doing now.

That's so funny. So you were not into science, but were you, like, naturally, maybe curious?

Not even, I mean, I studied it so, like, finished high school and was like, I don't wanna get a job yet, so I gotta go to college. And then was like, curing cancer is a thing that seems great in the world. So that's why I studied. I studied biomedical science, and it was just, and then was really bad. I'm a nerd in that. I wanna get good grades. So I was like studying really hard, just rote learning stuff, didn't really understand anything.

See, that is such a perfect niche for you. It's like you are curious about all of it, you love it. Your job is then translating it into human, yeah.

That's what, and I think like, because I had these like my parents, who were both academics, funnily enough, so I guess that must have been another thing in the mix. They always telling me like, if you don't understand something, just like, ask more questions, don't ever feel stupid for not understanding something. It's, you know, if someone's trying to teach you something and you don't understand it, you just keep asking questions.

Now your specialty is translating things to human and sort of sorting through all the different sort of scientific misconceptions. I think because the scientific language is so complex, it can be misunderstood so easily. Which is why your voice is so important, but also so exciting for people, because it's like.

Oh, now I get it.

Like, now I get it, I understand, cause it's like there's always so many conflicting ideas. And ultimately, you know, I think science is relevant for everybody because it's like we all use it to figure out how to have a better life.

There's so much garbage. And what's funny is like, when I started science versus.

No, it's never ending, it's never at the.

Like more and more diets every year, there's fasting, there's keto. There was now, like last season, I did, like seed oils, I was like, what it's like now?

The thing is is that humans love, I think humans love, and you've probably noticed this over the years. We like to find a band-aid, we want to find a band-aid for things, we want to find an explanation. And honestly, I'm somebody who is somewhat I'd like to say that I'm not, but I am somewhat. We all are susceptible to these big claims.

Well, we want an answer when something's wrong with our health, when we know we're not functioning in the way that we used to. Like. Whether like our brain's feeling foggy, or like, tummy's not feeling right, we're like, what could it be, what could it be? And you know, going to doctors like, I'm all about the like healthcare system and go to your doctor. But like, they can be assholes and they can not listen to you totally.

What do you think is the reason for so much misinformation? Like I, you know, when I think about it, one reason could be like, there's a company benefiting from misinformation, possibly like, that's maybe one source.

Or a person?

Or a person, do you think it's more nowadays influencers and sort of uneducated individuals, or, like, you know, individuals who lack the credential to be spreading information? Do you think it's those sorts of people who kind of want to provide an answer to, you know, maybe build a following? And so people will sort of trust them and like, look to them for answers. Or do you think it's more like corporations that are interested in spreading misinformation, or do you think it's a combination?

Oh, interesting, the ones that like that really piss me off, like, I don't know. When we look at like, the big problem of misinformation online, like, generally, I think it's individuals.

It's like, Okay, yeah, yeah.

Thank you for your contribution to climate change. Totally I appreciate it, like I understand being like.

We understand the language we like, see through maybe a corporation.

Exactly, but with individuals, that's where I see people really getting sucked in. And so, and you know, sometimes you have these like, really. I don't want to name any names, but you know, in the wellness influencers sector, there are these, there are some really big names who kind of use. What I see is they use our mistrust of corporations. Yes to then, like, twist things on their head.

I'm like, Excuse me. Well, that's the thing that's so annoying about it, I think, too. Especially is the blatant and so obvious hypocrisy. It's like, right there, it's like, Babe, it's unbelievable, but I also. It's such a perfect business model, despite it being evil.

It's potentially very, particularly if you're not saying things like you need to make sure you take like traditional, like conventional medicines, too.

And I'm like, that really pisses me off.

Because they're clearly using their healthcare education, like whether it's their RNS or whatever it is. They're using that, and they know they're using that to get people to think, oh, I can trust them. They've got their scrubs on, they probably came out from seeing a patient or something. And if you're wearing your scrubs or you're like a doctor, you need to be really careful about your facts. And so often I'm like, because part of the show is like, looking for, like, what the internet saying about a particular thing.

So let's play Devil's Advocate then.

Love it.

We're all human, right, including the experts, including the people writing the most advanced, the most modern, the most accurate scientific papers. Can we really trust anything for sure, in your opinion?

No, great, it's a great question, it's a great question. So here's my pitch for why I love science and why I think we can trust science. So at its best, science is just testing all these theories. We have, whatever it is.

It's amazing.

Is amazing. Like that, we can cure ourselves with our minds, to a certain extent, for certain things, you know? But it does mean that every like clinical trial, worth its weight in anything, has to have a placebo on. Because if you tell someone like, Hey, I got a great new drug for you, you wanna try it.

Well, this is the cure.

This is the cure.

Right?

But you have to, and I understand that you cycle yada yada. But just so people understand sort of how science works, then you just gotta wait and see what's gonna happen with the other studies.

Right?

You wanna test it in more people with different kinds of depression, and ketamine is a perfect example. So now we have more data and we can see that it probably helps about 50 of the people who take it. And it probably affects on average, last a couple of weeks, and then many people will go back to normal.

Yes, yes, see, I think it's also it's so important for people to remember. We have to trust, while also understanding that the research never ends, it never ends.

That's right.

Like, we will never have this perfect book filled with all the answers. Like, I mean, maybe in, like, what? 5,000 years, if like, whatever, if everything lasts that long, like, I don't know. It's like, I mean, maybe then, maybe then.

That's exactly, yeah, and I think it goes back to what you were saying about how we want a quick solution. And science is a process. Yeah, it's a frustrating, long process, but it's still the best we got, and it's still way better than someone said.

And it's pretty amazing, it is actually amazing. Like, I feel like a lot of us sort of, we're not grateful enough for the time that we live in. This is actually a phenomenal time to be alive where, like medicine is so advanced, like, we're curing shit. Like, you know, it's like crazy, hearing stories about different diseases that were just wiping everyone out.

We do yes.

Like, I think that that is most of our goal.

Yes, yes, and I don't want to be like out here. Being like, you know, science is like, you know, like, Come down from heaven, and you know, God was like, Oh, there are problems in science, and science does have biases. I mean, I was listening back to our episode on the G-Spot that we did, which has, like, a very funny history. It feels kind of dated now.

I mean, I think people need to be talking about it, let's talk about it. I actually don't know anything about the G-Spot, which is crazy. Because, like, I'm the type of person who'd be like, okay, find it to like a guy.

But then I'm like, I actually don't know what it is.

Or where it is. I also don't know if anyone would feel good if you found it, like, I actually don't know.

The story of, Like, how the G-spot was born, is wild. Wait, can you give?

Let's do a brief detour and tell us about the g-spot.

Yeah, and then I'll come right back to how it fits into, like, science can be fun sometimes.

Yes.

There was this nurse, Beverly Whipple, who was doing, who I interviewed, still alive today, and she, Oh gosh, what was it? Let's put it, in the 80s was doing this study in women who when they orgasm, they peed a little and in some cases, peed a lot. And like, needed like towels. And this was very upsetting for them. And so she was, yeah, and so she's studying these women who at the time, you know, very taboo, very embarrassed about this.

Yes, yes, there you go, there you go, hit it, yes.

So she would take their vaginas and like, just kind of, like, insert her finger and then kind of go around like in a clockwise direction and be like, how does this feel? how does this feel? how does this feel? And she kept finding that around the if you imagine like your vagina's like a clock, like the 11 a..m. to 1 p..m.

Oh, you know what, they can't handle it.

They're like, we've never talked like this before. Oh, that's amazing. So she starts to, and I think she did this talk once it starts blowing up, maybe before she wrote the book, she did this talk. And people were like, you have to name this thing. And at one point it was gonna be called the Whipple Tickle, cause her name is Beverly Whipple. But then they went for the G-spot, cause G-spot is like Dr.

There's, like, too much information about the penis in it.

There's like, but nothing on the clitoris, nothing. And she's getting madder and madder and madder about this. And then one day she gets given this book by a group of feminists in America. It was like a friend of hers was like, you want to see this book? and she's like, Yeah, I want to see this book.

Yeah.

So she starts a study in Like the Nineties.

Whoa?

One of the first scientific studies actually dissecting like, where is the clitoris, what's going on, what's going on in there? Because now, I think it's fairly well known that, like the tip that you see is like the tip of the iceberg. You know, it's this very large, large, you know, I'm really. This is like something that's really good about this.

Coming down, it's big.

But she worked that out. In 1998, that paper was published, and it was only then where we could stop being like, wait, so what's the g spot to take it all back around? And she was like, I can't see anything where in this, like 11 to one position, but what I can see is this huge clitoris.

Wow, this thing is big.

Oh, my god, no one's talking about.

So wait, is that actually? What it is? Is that the clitoris just extends inside? So then it's like, so it's a piece of your right, because I feel like some people can't orgasm vaginally.

That's right, yeah, yeah, so it's probably so now. Our understanding of. Like the vagina and that whole region and the clitoris is like that, the clitoris, the vaginal wall, even the urethra, which is like where we pee out of. They all sort of interact in this very interesting way. That, like, I don't know. We used this terrible analogy in the podcast, where we were like puppies dancing.

Like, Oh, come on, I love that, it's funny.

And that is now like the vaginal urethral complex, which is probably what the g spot was in some of these women. And so there is no spot is bottom line. But like, why? I think it reflects like that science can suck sometimes is like, why wasn't the clitoris in that anatomy textbook?

Yeah, like, how did that get missed?

How did that? And the thing is that in the 1900s, like, you know, Grey's anatomy.

Of course.

Yes, yes, so Grey's anatomy is a textbook, it's anatomy textbook. Before it was a TV show in the 1900s, they had the clitoris. oh, late 1940s clitoris gone.

I don't know, we just got fucked.

We just our like entire.

Are women's orgasms bigger? Is that true? Have you read into that?

We did a whole episode on the orgasm gap, you know this idea. Like some men, if you ask like cis men, like, how often do you orgasm when you have sex? 95 will say yes. You ask like, women, do you wanna have a guess?

How many? Oh, well, let's use my own life.

65%.

Okay, that's good.

Yeah, you wanna guess? oh so, that's straight women. do you wanna guess gay women?

Oh, it must be way higher. I mean, like, I feel like that would be like 95..

Yeah, it's 89 89%.

Very good.

Yeah, yeah, so that tells us that, like this is largely not a biological thing. Yeah, you know, it's not like it's that much harder to get us off. This is a cultural thing, mostly.

Do you think it is harder for women to orgasm? Like, actually?

Yeah, so we looked into the science of this, like, why?

Get into it.

Yeah, what is this orgasm? what's causing it? is the female orgasm? Like such a big mystery. Exactly that was our exact question. And there's been these phenomenal studies.

But it's like, also, no one's talking about it in a day-to-day as much because it is sort of, even still, sometimes a taboo.

A little taboo. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's so fun.

I love it, yeah, so they so. For example, they've gotten people to go into MRIS and orgasm and like either masturbating or getting their partners, but MRIS just is like fun details. Have you ever had one?

An MRI, Yes.

Yeah, so it's loud, it's like.

Yes, it's a very weird experience, it's a weird experience.

It'd be really hard to orgasm in there.

So hard.

Are you kidding me? Not at all.

And also, like, it's like, Do you get any like stimulation? Like you're in there alone with a loud sound. Good luck using your imagination. I like, you know what I mean, and I know they're not like playing a video for you.

And not only that, on an MRI, you know how you have to be really still, yeah, because movement is the killer of an MRI. You need the image to be crystal clear, and so researchers had to design a helmet, which she called the researcher, Dr.

It's kind of like a mess sometimes in there, like, and even for me, like, even with my own vagina, I'm like, it's a mess, cause I'm like, it's not a beautiful mess.

There's no discovery. Yeah, that's right.

You know, some women I know have like maybe a smaller clitoris. So like, you have to like, and it might be like under fold, so you have to like. Actually move things around to then see it like, it's very interesting, but I mean.

Yeah, so that tells us that, like, so maybe there's a little bit of biology there. But the fact that gay women can orgasm almost 90 of the time tells us that a huge chunk of this orgasm gap is social. It's social and like, actually, surveys have been done of like college kids, college like men. And they know where the clitoris is, they're clearly just not finding it. They don't care, you know, like, or some men, some men like.

Oh, no, definitely.

And there's surveys that have been done of women that, like, we prioritize male orgasm, that's when sex ends. And it's really sad that, like that hasn't changed, right? That hasn't changed.

No, it has not.

Yeah, and that sucks. Like, I remember when I was in high school, I was like, the gender gap on many things. I was like, we're so close to getting that right. You know, like, once we get the wages sorted, equality's like in, you know, we got it, we got this.

Then we're both gonna cum every time, exactly, and it's gonna be fucking awesome.

And now I'm like, no, like, no, like. It's still the primacy of the penis, it's still sex is done. When they cum, it's like, and it's all. And you can see it in the data that, like women will say, like, I prioritize them cumming, I, No, I know.

Yeah, like, I've done that.

Because they should be like, you know, okay, now it's your turn. Yeah, no, that's how it should work.

But it's also like, I think a lot of guys too are, like, scared to ask, like, they're scared, well, that's just a sex thing anyway. But like people are, it's a very hard conversation to have to be like, you know, you're not doing it.

Yeah.

It's not working. Yeah, like it ruins the like, it doesn't need to ruin it.

It could just be like, let's try it this way, let's like it could be a fun thing, totally. It doesn't need to be like you're ragging on them or anything, It could just be like, hey, let's try this.

I think one day, I think we'll be alive when the stats go up and the girlies are having their orgasms just as much, and it's all. Maybe we'll be alive for that. That'd be such a treat.

That would be great, that'd be great. I really thought, you know how? Like, there was like, Big Dick energy a couple of songs ago, I was like, What about, like, generous lover energy?

What about what about excited clit energy? You know what I mean? what about well attended to clitoris energy? Why not?

Or why are we not doing that? yes.

You're like, that's what we need. We could go through the celebrities in our lives and be like, you know, Cardi B. Well attended. Clitoris energy, you can tell, yes.

You can tell, no, there's been phases of my life. If you scroll through my Instagram, you can tell when my clitoris was not well attended to. You can see that shit in my eyes. And then all of a sudden, it's like, one day, there's a little glisten back.

Hmm, what happened?

Well attended clitoris energy.

You know what I mean? It's like you can see it in the eyes.

Okay, so we're starting that as a hashtag, you guys all take that and run with it. Oh, that's so good. We just unintentionally answered one of my first questions, which was, let's talk about the orgasm. Because that's one of the things that you've. You've dug into, you dug into so many things.

How is? how is your journey going by the way?

What happened to me was I, I like, made an episode, a podcast episode, being like, I'm quitting.

Yes.

Cause I woke up one day and I was like, I'm quitting, I quit. Then I went through a rough patch and I was like, there's no fucking way like I. Cause nicotine withdrawals are tough.

Yeah.

And it was like, I just can't, I need this like, this is my pacifier, I need this back. So I started again, then a month ago, I quit again.

You gotta, like, cut down in your cafe.

There's already a bunch of shit to do right. Any stimulants that I love will have to exit my life, alcohol as well, like, I really can't handle all of this quitting.

Combustible, There's nothing burning.

There's nothing burning, you know? I remember somebody told me once, actually, I think it was like a guy I dated for like a month. He was telling me cause he's super addicted to the vape too, and he's like, No, no, no, it's totally fine. It's like the the vegetable glycerin, the base of it is, he said, something about it being like water soluble.

So it like, it won't stick like it's vegan.

Like, yeah, he's like, it's actually really organic, so it's like chia seed vibes, so it's totally fine. It's like it's super kale energy, it's super air one coated.

Oh, interesting.

And I did not like it, made me feel like heavy, and I was like, this I don't like. And I immediately stopped because I was like, I do not like this. But I was like, Anyway, so all of this rambling to say.

What's going on?

What's going on with the vape? Okay, like, cause, honestly, if somebody were to tell me it's actually totally fine, I'd be like, amazing.

I'm gonna fucking vape again.

Like, I would literally, if someone told me right now, okay, it's totally safe, I'd be like, peace out, I would literally wait. I would have my babies so that, you know, cause I was whatever, and then I would then vape for the remainder of my life.

Yeah, okay, unfortunately, I'm not gonna tell you that they're totally safe. But I think a lot of the like confusion out there is because, as like the vast majority of data out there shows that vaping is safer than smoking, but that is because, like, smoking cigarettes is so bad.

Yep.

The vast majority of studies, although I will say like there was a study that came out recently that kind of suggests otherwise. But I think going back to our point of, like, you look at the data, that's what it suggests. Okay, so, given that. So, if you're currently smoking cigarettes and want a way to quit and think vaping might help you, I think the data suggests that's a good idea. But vaping compared to nothing compared to air. Beautiful, beautiful air. Yes, this is where the French is gonna get into trouble.

No, I need this, I need to hear this continue.

Yeah, so for a long time, and I almost feel like it was probably like, you know, really, in the last like 10 years or whatever. So first, there was just like, all this talk, it's safe, it's safe, it's safe. And I feel like that's when a bunch of people started taking it. Yep, and then the data starts coming out.

Yeah, there's nothing. Anytime you're inhaling anything that's not clean air, it's probably bad, yes.

Yeah, exactly, and so we now. So, for example, we talked to this researcher who had, like, interviewed something like 3000 kids who were like, I don't know, kids late teens, early 20s. And found that if you vaped, you were way more likely to have symptoms like coughing and wheezing. Two thirds of the people in their sample had symptoms like that, and the researcher was like, this is not normal.

By the way, horrible flavor. Who's smoking that y'all are weird for that? Okay, yeah, ew.

So I'll tell you I haven't smoked that one.

So we're going to continue exactly.

So I feel so bad for scientists. They're like, we finally worked out cinnamaldehyde, and then everyone's like, Fuck that shit, we don't even like that flavor.

It's like, I like the melon one or the lychee one. Yeah, work out the high stuff.

So that's how they started getting the flavors. They're like, oh, we already know. Like it gives whatever this chemical gives, like a cherry like to your cherry ripes or whatever. Like, what if you just inhaled it and no one had really done the studies for inhalation?

Like 1,000%.

Yeah, right, you're eating berries.

And you're like, this wasn't great.

But just like, get it out, you'll be fine, but your lungs, like, weren't designed to, like, shove, you know, like it weren't. They haven't evolved for that sort of whole industrial style, clean.

Totally.

And we already have examples where stuff that has been safe to eat, we know, is not good for your lungs. And so the example scientists like to use is diacetyl, which is like a buttery flavor that I don't. It shouldn't be put in vapes because we know it's really harmful, but it's put on popcorn. It gives like the buttery taste of popcorn, as far as we know, really safe, like, very yummy. But then in a popcorn factory a couple of decades ago, this is how scientists were, like, desperate to like, Do we know anything about its inhalation?

Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah, interesting, Okay, yeah.

Yeah, and so that was like the first example where we know that diacetyl is bad for your lungs, and there have been examples of people who have inhaled it. A diacetyl in vapes, yeah, and it hasn't been good for their lungs. So, I mean, just generally. And then the propylene glycol, which is the stuff that makes it like fog, that makes it like it's like a little fog machine.

Oh God, the amount of years that I inhaled, that is so bad. Okay, continue, continue, it is tell me the truth.

Right, I mean, it's like, fascinating from like a chemical perspective that you're like, oh, that stage like fog machine. It's like, oh, my god.

I'm in like a fucking Halloween haunted house in my lungs. My lungs are literally for years look like a Halloween haunted house. That is exactly for better or for worse. Let me tell you, I was having fun blowing my O's, but I was really like, but it can't be good.

Yeah, you know, or like, you're out of the club or whatever and they're putting the fog, you know?

It's like a rave in my lungs. Yes, okay, yeah.

Yeah, that's right, and there's evidence that's also not great for your lungs, you know? And they even have, like studies from theater workers who have had to, like, inhale a ton of this stuff and things like that. So we know all these they're not good, they're not good. And then there's also some upcoming research into nicotine itself. Whether that, because there's been a debate for a long time about whether nicotine is even that bad for you, because, like, it's addicting.

Being addicted to anything's not good, right?

Well, yeah, I mean, I guess it's a philosophical debate.

That is because, see, it's funny you say that because that was something that I like, did research on. I always would do research and like, cherry pick the studies or things that I would look at like to like. Allow me to continue vaping.

Interesting, Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like, I would literally cherry pick the articles. It was, you know, I fully know what I was doing, but I would be like, I read one article once. That nicotine, as a chemical, it's the same as caffeine. It might be a little bit more addicting, but when it comes to like, its risks, I guess.

Well, it was equal. So there's these, so now there's this new. That was kind of how I had understood it as well. And then when we did this episode and dove in, that was like, kind of for a long time. Because it's so hard to study because most of our nicotine research comes from smokers. And so you're like, how are you supposed to know what caused the damage, like the nicotine in the tobacco or everything else that you're smoking?

Exactly, yes.

When you burn the tobacco. And so now they're doing research and it's really at its early stages. So what we've known for a while is that smokers have a high risk of getting depression. And for a long time, there was this question of like, correlation, causation, like, which is basically this question of, like, what did the smoking chicken? or the egg? chicken? or the egg? Did the smoking cause the depression?

Or are depressive people less likely to care about their wellbeing, therefore smoke?

Makes sense, or smoke to already help with the symptoms of depression? Like it, just like, wasn't clear whether nicotine was. Then they started to see the same pattern with vapors, so vapors were more likely to get depression.

The few times I've quit insane depression, right? I have. I'm a very anxious person anyway. So I think anytime anything changes, my anxiety is just the first thing to react, right? But horrible anxiety, like the worst that was really bad.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, no, it was really bad and like, mood swings and like all these issues. And then, you know, now I'm my nicotine consumption, if you were to like, look at how much I'm consuming now. Versus when I was using the bit. It's much less and I do feel much more emotionally stable. Great, which is interesting, right?

I'm so emotionally stable right now.

I think it definitely made me, or I noticed that sort of, I don't know. I think there is an emotional impact. Overall, the consensus is we don't actually know that much about vaping, but we know that we shouldn't be doing it.

All the signs are pointing to if you can not do it, that's great, yeah, and the less that you do it, the better, right?

Have you done anything about alcohol?

Yeah, is there any way? Don't do it.

Is there any way like to drink alcohol? Because I've seen so many contradicting things, like where there's been the study. A glass of red wine every night, it doesn't hurt. I've seen that, but then I've also seen like tequila with lemon.

So the alcohol episode was one that, like, actually made me change my habits and made me change the way I drink. Yeah, it's actually kind of like a really interesting science story of, like, I don't know if it's an interesting story.

I didn't know it was a carcinogen, yeah.

Which is crazy.

I should have known that.

The breakdown products of alcohol can like, muck up your DNA and like, and it causes, and that is what? Because, like, when you get older, people you love start getting cancer. Yep, and that's what made me really cut down my drinking. I was like, cause we do so much to prevent cancer.

I'd also like, I mean, at least for me, it makes me anxious and depressed, like it fucks with my brain. Yeah, like when I'm, you know?

You want to create, like, Yes, we did an episode on hangovers, so what do you? That was on my list? Oh right, yeah, yeah.

My guess would be that your liver is processing. I have no idea, by the way, so this is so random, so like, this is my guess.

It's so funny because you are like we did, like voxies on the street, yes, like Vox pops, and like everyone had the same answer, really.

Dehydration, Oh.

You're kidding? No, no, no, no, no, no, but that's what, like, I think, a lot of listeners. That's what I thought it was dehydration. Oh, that's the thinking.

That's what everyone thinks is that it's being dehydrated.

You're being dehydrated, yeah, because alcohol, you know, there's this story that alcohol is a diuretic that makes you pee and then you lose a lot of water and you become dehydrated. But actually, anyone who has had a hangover knows about or thought they knew about this dehydration thing, like, if you ever, I definitely have had, like, a terrible hangover. And I'm like, before we did this study, I'm like, I'm gonna drink water, I'm gonna drink water.

Yeah, you're like, I'm clear, you're like, I'm fucking fine.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, like, clearly my body is rehydrated more than before and I still have a terrible hangover. So the current thinking is that it's actually caused. When your body breaks down alcohol, it produces like the breakdown products that are kind of like little toxic, like just a little bit toxic. And it creates this inflammatory response. Because your body, like, has this immune system where it's like, what's all these toxins doing in my body?

That makes complete sense. Okay, wait, this is completely this last topic that I need because this is so me, I cannot. We cannot skip this one gossiping.

Like, when it's not just like, Did you see his hat the other day? or like, it's not just mean and bitchy.

It's when it's like, for the sake of analysis. Well, just let's discuss gossip, like I think a lot of people will say, gossip is all bad, you know? It's like, that's a negative thing. There's nothing redeeming there. And then some people will be like, No, this is how we connect as human beings.

Oh, that's, I mean, that kind of is where the science lands, so we know.

Interesting, okay?

We know that gossip can be harmful, you know, particularly in like, high school, middle school. We've all been there. It can be really nasty, it can ostracize it. Can you know? If you're the target of gossip, it can increase your risk of mental health issues.

It totally is, yeah.

And you know, studies that show that, like gossipy workplaces, people tend to be less creative, less happy, you know, and we've all been there as well, and it is it's like stifling to be in a gossipy workplace. But then the positives. So interestingly, like, there was this really fun study that got people, a Spanish study that got people to. They were scanning their brains. I think it was an EEG and gave them either statements that were gossip or statements that were just like trivia, right?

Yes, totally.

And they and people were like, you know, not interested? like, I don't, that's not me, I'm not interested in that. Then he went back to them, like a week later, and was like, So do you remember what the highest mountain in Germany is? People tended to be like, No.

Yes.

It's such a stupid which was this huge like rumor in, like, Europe. Yeah, totally, and so we know that like we remember this content. Also, when he looked back at the brain data, he could see that people's brains sort of lit up, they were. it's like the brains were giving them away.

Like, I don't, so they're morally like, I don't care about that, but then they're like, googling it the second they're out of the MRI scan.

Yeah, yeah, there is something about gossip that we love.

Yep.

And there is a bonding component to it, without a doubt. Like you meet new friends, you know who know your other, it's like a connector. Yep, you know, you can feel that love in the room.

Yes, this is the best news.

Yes, yes. And also there was this fun study that I think tracked middle schoolers and it said that if someone is saying really negative gossip, which really only happens in middle school. I feel like when you grow up.

Yeah.

Like, you abandon those friends pretty quickly. Yep, but if the next person in line, like, say, someone was like, Oh my gosh, like Jeremy's pants today look really stupid, and then the next person said, Oh, I actually think the pants look cool. That was like the fizzle.

That's true.

So that's what the study found. So you could be the savior of the gossip.

Or you could not, no, I believe in, like I do believe, though, that for the. For somebody who is like me, for example, who loves gossip like I do. Although I'm so, so protected about it, like, I have like four people in my life.

Maybe five that I gossip with. I was just about to ask you, what's the best bit of gossip you've heard recently?

I like, I'm so good about. I'll share some gossip with you after I'll come up with something, but it's like I never share it on the internet. A lot of people go on their podcast and are like, let's gossip. It's like, No, don't do that. That's like the worst thing you could do for society.

You don't want to be like getting enjoyment off other people's pain as well, like, I don't think.

It has to be fair.

Yeah, and that's like, that's like, not a good side to the soul. I guess you're not really gonna feel great after just you gotta, yeah.

It has to be in good faith. Like you have to, like, if you're gonna be shitting on someone, they have to have shit first. Like, so it's like, you know what I'm saying, like, they need to have, like, done something genuinely bad.

You can't be that on a t-shirt.

I know that's okay, that's so easy.

You're gonna be shitting on someone.

I'm gonna now if you guys make anybody out there merch companies, I'm gonna be making that. So it'll be. It'll be really extensive, but I'll make sure, just cause, yeah, but get ready.

But I just remembered another fun fact from the episode, which is that men gossip basically as much as women do. Whoa, yeah. So they've done these studies where they like, put microphones on people and then put switch them like on and off. This is why we love science. We can objectively measure this stuff.

Yes.

At different times, like they and they find, and so they find that men do it too, men do it too. And the definition of gossip is it's a very loose one. It's just talking about someone when they're not there. Yep.

I refuse to date a guy who will not gossip with me, like, I'm actually not kidding. That is a deal breaker, like, if there's.

Cause if they're going to be annoying about it, like.

No, I'm like, if I'm like, if I want to be like, oh, like this, you know? This girl was like, so rude to me today and she did this and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I need. I refuse to go on a second date with a man who I don't really go on dates. It's not very gen Z, but anyway, I refuse to, like, entertain somebody who will not be like, Wait, like, what was she wearing?

Like, I need a guy who they gotta have fun with it.

No, I need a guy who will meet me there, and it's true, there are. It's not as like, stereotypically, it's a woman thing, but if you get, if you like, allow.

Everyone gossips, it's everyone, it's everyone. It's really not a girl thing. No, it's not.

Like, actually, wait, actually, what else is there to talk about? No, I'm not kidding. what else is there? I think about that sometimes.

You can feel good about it. Science approves of your gossip.

Okay, so I can't vape, but I can have a glass of wine every once in a while and I can fucking gossip. So life is good and you know what?

And you can orgasm.

I know I was gonna say, and I can orgasm every fucking time I just as long as no, you just need, oh my God.

Not that, and I should. There are other ways to enjoy sex and being with each other, you don't know, not so much pressure on the orgasm.

No, I'm sorry, but I-.

If they're doing it, you can do it.

No, I've as like, you know, like there's a phase, I think in every young woman's life where it's like, damn, it's like, not happening, huh? Like, you're like,-.

I will say like, Yeah, it took mid-20s before I was even horny. Oh, really. yeah, yeah, interesting, which I actually, you know, coming on the show, I was like, Oh, what is something that I? That I think is an important message that we don't talk about enough.

Oh, I was so frigid.

You know, but-.

Yeah.

Were you frigid or were you just not horny?

No, I wasn't, I wasn't, and also I wasn't. I don't think I was. It was not possible for me because you can't mentally get there unless you feel safe.

But I remember, like, sitting around when I lived in a share house in Sydney with the amazing three other women, and we were sitting around. I guess I would have been in my mid-twenties then. And they were all talking about the first time they masturbated, and one of them was like, I never remember a time I didn't masturbate.

Whoa?

They were like, I kind of remember rubbing up against stuff when I was three years old, like, I didn't, I didn't even think about it as masturbate. When another one said, When I was 13, that's when I was like, I was like, going down in there and they turned to me and I was like.

Um, I haven't done it, I so get it because I didn't until I, okay, wait, no, for me, I came from, like my first orgasm was from a guy.

Yeah.

Like, doing it for me, yeah, like my first boyfriend, yeah, me too.

And I was like, What, yeah?

And I had never, I didn't even know it was crazy. Yeah, that's right, that's right.

And no one's like talking to you about it, no one's like giving you advice, and unlike with guys, it's not like right out there.

You don't know what you're missing.

Yeah, until my mid-twenties. And so, like, I really wish the conversation. Instead of it being like, frigid or whatever, or whatever fucking words they're using to like, judge. Women and girls who don't wanna have sex, it's just like, Do you want sex right now? You don't have to want sex right now? You know, like you're 13, you're 16, you're 19, maybe you're just not horny.

I'm so of that, like it's cause it's not, it's not even good when you're younger anyway, like it's not that it's not okay. So, like, for example, it's always like, oh, like, have sex, like, you know, you wanna like, have sex as soon as you can. This was like the belief when you're, you know, in high school or whatever, it's like, have sex now. So that you can get good at it. And then it, whatever.

If you're not feeling horny, you don't need to do anything. No, yeah.

Oh my God, I could talk to you all day. You have to come on again.

I would love that this is so much fun.

Cause, I'm not kidding, we could go down every. We just scratched the surface today. Yeah, that was amazing. Thank you so much for having me.