Maria Sharapova

Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert, Experts on Expert. I'm Dan Rather, and I'm joined by the Duchess of Duluth.

Hello there.

Where you'll soon be. You'll be gracing Duluth with your-.

I sure will.

Royal presence. Are you watching the new Crown, by the way?

Not yet.

Yeah.

I need to get on it.

You know what's fun is. I watch that with Lincoln.

Oh, so fun.

Which is so good, and I'm so into the fact that at 10, she likes it so much.

Yeah, because it's slow.

It's slow and historical, and everyone's old on it, and she loves it. It's so exciting. Today's guest is Maria Sharapova. She is a five-time Grand Slam-winning former professional tennis player, an investor, and an entrepreneur, and she has a book entitled Unstoppable, My Life So Far.

She's a beast.

Mm-hmm.

It's so cool. Like, it's fun when we have athletes on. Yeah. Because we just-.

Pale in comparison to them. Yeah. It feels immortal around them, right? Yes. Well, let's just start with the fact she arrived, and we're the same size.

Yeah.

And I was like, oh, damn, because one of my questions was gonna be, or was, and I did ask, like, the showdowns with Serena when she's a 17-year-old. Yeah. That must be so intimidating. That's what I think the whole time, and then I meet her in person, and I'm like, I doubt she's intimidated by much.

Yeah.

You know?

Yeah.

Powerhouse. Powerhouse. Totally enjoyed it. I hope everyone else does as well. Please enjoy Maria Sharapova.

He's an armchair expert.

He's an armchair expert.

He's an armchair expert.

Oh, my God.

Hey.

Did they tell you?

That the toilet is without a doorknob.

Hi. Hi, nice to see you.

Well, let's see how tall you are. Oh, this is wonderful.

We're like eye to eye.

How could I have not read that in my research? How tall are you?

Six. I'm 6'2". There we go. Nice.

You know what's crazy? I didn't even clock it when we shook hands,

how tall you were.

I guess everyone's taller than me, so I don't.

I kind of get away with being super tall, but when I wear heels, it's like. Yeah. It's too much. It's too much.

Were you offered stuff to drink?

I'm fine.

We can stop at any time if you decide you want.

If you want to go into the house for 10 minutes and sit down and relax.

If you want to go work on your roof outside the house.

We only have like an hour left of light out.

I hate it. Is that true?

No, but kind of.

Is someone going to change these rules? Didn't we vote on this?

It's worse than that. We voted and we said we don't want to have it anymore. And then they told us, oh, it starts next year. So for two years, we thought, and then we were like, well, this is the year. And then come to find out that vote was just to allow them to overturn it.

So is it coming into effect?

I don't think it ever is. I don't think that vote we did means anything. That was three years ago that passed.

I know, we've been just waiting.

You're in Manhattan Beach. Okay, so the commute for you here, miserable? Be honest.

I usually like to drive, but I looked at the map and I was like, there's no fucking way to drive today.

Yeah, that's fair.

Also going back to- I don't remember the last time I went this far, actually.

Yeah, you should plan an entire weekend out of it now that you're here.

Well, I planned an entire late afternoon out of it. So yeah, I scheduled a couple of meetings after my friend is opening a store tonight. So I'm just gonna do the whole thing.

Can we recommend that you try a fun restaurant while you're over here? Or that's too much?

I would have said yes, but I don't have time.

Now you've packed it so tight.

That would have been. the only thing I would have liked to do, is go eat and perhaps drink. Yeah. Because I have a driver, he's fancy.

We should have had some wine for you here.

Oh, no, that's fine.

Do you like wine?

Or what's your drink? I mean, who doesn't?

Well, yeah.

Even if you don't drink it, you do like it. I like it. I like that.

Yeah, it's the experience, right?

But you have a 15-month-old?

Yeah, I think he's 60 now. I can't keep track. We're just speaking with Monica about how quickly it all goes.

Yes, and do you feel, though, when you get to leave that house and come here, that, even though normally it'd be a drag, it's like spring break?

I was just saying the guilt that you feel like leaving the house. as a new-er mom, going through my teens and my 20s and my early 30s, I was like, oh, I got this down. I'm this tough girl. I'm gonna be okay leaving my child. Oh, no.

But do you find this paradox? you're stuck in? Forget. who just posted about this, but whatever, it's well-worn. But someone I like and respect was like, when I'm at work, I feel guilty.

Absolutely. Yeah.

100% true. You cannot win, no matter what.

You can't win. No, it's like this balance. When was the last time we felt balanced? Yes.

It's so gendered. If I'm at work, I'm like, woo, this is great. And then I'm being a dad, I'm like, I'm a great dad. I don't, there's no point.

Now, don't you think, if you're out of town for some days, you miss them, but also, don't you feel like I should be back?

Well, yes, I was stuck on a TV show, the hours were way too long, and I was having a crisis. Like, if this thing keeps going, I'm gonna miss my kid's childhood. I did have the panic of that, but it wasn't the guilt that I think moms experience. It's not like I had done something amoral. It was just, I'm providing in a way, I gotta figure out a different way to provide.

Yeah, my whole perspective on work, on this sense of understanding, what's more important than other things, like I retired, we went into lockdown of COVID, then I was pregnant. And so, you know, I envisioned post-retirement traveling around the world and experiencing these amazing cities from a different perspective. And then I gave birth to Theo, and then my world just revolves around him and work. And yeah, and I don't know when I'm going on vacation.

I don't think I connected the dots between you retiring in 2020, and that, of course, we went right into quarantine. Do you think, in some way, I could imagine that helping a lot, because you were probably so used to the routine and the training and the traveling and all that busyness.

Yes.

And then, when you retire, it stops on a dime. It could have been overwhelming, but luckily, everyone stopped on a dime. Do you think that helped? I'm not sure.

I think there's always a part of your body and your mind that has to process a big change like that. And so, whether it happens in light of a pandemic or whether it just happens because that's where life takes you, there's definitely a moment of reflection, of consideration, whether that was the right choice. I'd played this one sport for over 25 years of my life. So I was committed. I was in it.

It had to be most of your identity.

Oh, yeah. Absolutely. And when someone would ask whether I wanted to have dinner that evening, that thought of, well, how late is my dinner? Am I gonna be as fresh the next morning if I didn't attend that dinner? You're constantly pushing your body and your mind to this next level.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And not have to go perform in front of thousands of people. So that's been a nice change. But yes, you're absolutely right. The identity, understanding that you've had this platform for 10 months out of the year, you had a voice and beyond just being an athlete, you attended a press conferences and you had so many different things going on. It dies down a little bit.

I think there's a lot of contributing factors to why so many professional athletes get very depressed post career. But I would imagine one of them is, you didn't have the capacity to be pursuing a bunch of other hobbies. It's so all consuming what you were doing. I imagine, when it's over, there's the obvious stuff, but then there's also like, well, I haven't been pursuing all this other stuff that I'm gonna fall back on.

What's interesting about that is you only have so much time to dedicate to one craft. It was a single focus. It was the one thing that I just wanted to achieve and be great at every single day. But I also realized that it was only several hours of my day. How long am I able to go on the court and just give it all out?

You're ashamed of it, right? You're almost like, wait,

I'm not supposed to be doing this. I'm supposed to be having lunch while on a Zoom call. So it's interesting the perception that people have of a packed schedule now in order for you to look like you're busy. And the productivity is certainly not the same, but I had a lot of downtime. And as an athlete, you have a lot of downtime to spend with yourself and your mind.

Okay, another thing I'd imagine I would have a hard time saying goodbye to, and this will be a very strange analogy, but I will say one of the great things about being an addict is you have a singular priority, and there's something very comforting about that, that everything else gets downsized, because I think so much of the anxiety of being alive is exactly what you described this morning. Like, I'm gonna be with the kid for this long and I'll be gone for that long. The anxiety of like making sure you're turning your focus into all the places you should and trying to decide that, whereas when you have something like you were doing, it does give you a great excuse. that just like, hey, this isn't what I'm doing. For 10 months, like if I didn't return your call, like we all know what I'm doing.

And fortunately, in many ways, the sport found me. You know, my dad was a fan, like no one in my family had any strong sporting genes. And I was just a little girl that would go with my dad as he had fun with his friends and played doubles on a public park court. And it wasn't that I had many other interests and this just happened like to flourish. It was, I just picked up a racket.

You were three when you first picked up a racket.

Yeah, I started playing at four. Three sounds a little young.

Well, in fairness, it said just you hit a tennis ball for the first time at three. At four, you took maybe a lesson for the first time.

Maybe I sat my eyes on the ball at three.

Okay, so you just went with your dad.

Yeah, casually, my dad was a fan and I'd show up on the courts with him. And my mom was very young when she had me, so she was still in university. So as she was studying, I'd go with my father. I never went to kindergarten. So I was always around them and I was an only child.

And they had just left their home, right? Because while your mom was pregnant with you, Chernobyl happened and they were at that time within 30 kilometers of Chernobyl.

Yes.

That's its own unique childhood when you're growing up with parents that aren't at home.

It was a very different upbringing. I was born in Siberia because of Chernobyl explosion, because my mom was pregnant with me. They were living 30 kilometers from the explosion in Belarus at the time.

Have you considered? this is why you're so tall?

I mean, it's been mentioned a few times.

Is your dad really tall or your mom?

No one is as tall as I am. Oh, interesting.

So it's definitely been a consideration.

Like a superhero movie, you got the good gamma rays.

And we fled to Siberia, and that's where I was born. And then, two years later, we moved down South to a little warmer town on the Black Sea. And then that's where I started. And then, at the age of five, my father and I flew to Florida and have lived in the US since.

Okay, so there's so much there.

There's a lot.

There has to be so much there. Ultimately, did you leave Sochi to go to Florida? Yes. You were in Sochi right before you left for Florida.

So I went from palm trees to palm trees.

The visa your dad was able to obtain for you to go pursue tennis. Again, Wikipedia is wrong. You were five, not seven. I have read seven, whatever. It only allowed for you two to go.

My mom didn't join me for the first two years. I didn't see her for two years.

How do we feel? What are the residual? Yeah, like, what does one pick up from that? That's pretty traumatic for a little girl to not have mom for a couple of years.

It's very interesting looking back at it, because I'm now a mother of a 16 month old and I cannot imagine that type of separation. It was a world of unknown simply because visas were so difficult to get at that time, as they are now, by the way. But it just put so much emphasis on the fact that what an amazing gift that her husband and her daughter had the chance to go pursue a sport in the United States. So I think she looked at it from that perspective. And there's like a part of me that also thinks that we didn't have that direct connection with FaceTime and my dad didn't have a cell phone.

There's something really profound about having children in re-examining your own life. Oh, absolutely. Especially for trauma.

Yeah, being an only child and constantly being around them and seeing how supportive they were in all aspects of my life. We grew an incredible bond. And also like interest levels. My father was very influential in sport and he pushed me to a certain extent, and he was tough, but very fair. And my mother just came from a point of education and culture and any chance she got, even if it was in Sarasota, Florida, she would take me to the ballet.

Right. There's about three different stories happening in your life, already at nine, that are worthy of its own book. One would just be the life of a child, prodigy tennis star, right? But the other one is immigrant family from the USSR going to Florida, mom arriving two years later. What culturally was happening when you guys got there?

Yeah, I wrote an autobiography several years ago and it was for exactly that reason, because I felt like this relationship to my father, especially in the first two years as an immigrant, was such a unique and special story. And we were lost, but we found comforts in our daily routines. And because we had a goal and we had a vision and I had a passion, I would wake up. The first thing I do is go get my racket and dad, let's eat breakfast fast so we can go out on the court at 6 a.m. That's all I wanted to do.

it was the story- Neither one speaking English.

We didn't speak English. I was gonna ask her, oh boy. Yeah, I knew how to say my name in English, and my name in Russian is Masha. And when I came to the United States, they all called me Marsha. Oh, sure.

Wow, so your real name's, Masha?

Masha, yeah. Oh, I like Masha. It's beautiful, yeah. And I knew the basics, but you know the animals. Oh, no, Lori.

She is. The big breakthrough in my life was no girls liked me in elementary school. And then, when I got to junior high, my brother gave me a cool punk rock haircut, put me in the right clothes.

Gave you a new name?

My name was already Dax, so I was already there. But Sasha, the most popular eighth grader, liked me and asked me out, and it changed my whole life and Sasha. So I had this. really, it's a very,

oh, it's very important.

This is almost it, Masha.

I feel your energy coming through from that chair. By the way, this setup is very unique. you have over here. I used the toilet just before starting this and Matt Damon's in the show. Yes, he is.

Oh, yeah.

I don't know where else I'm gonna find that again.

Baby Monica right there.

I think this is a once in a lifetime. It's a unique space. Thank you.

You're so welcome. It's like a weird clubhouse, isn't it?

Yeah, there's some non-alcoholic beer. Off topic.

Totally off topic.

No, that's exactly why I wanted to share that story of my life and my career on paper, because it really was an amazing, beautiful chapter of my life that many of my fans, they didn't know all the details and the difficulties, and how many people helped us along the way and how many people thought that we wouldn't make it and try to make it extremely difficult for myself. and how did we go through all those red lights and how did we find another path to keep going and the inspiration? That's why I loved writing it.

Do you have memories of things being exciting when you got here? Like, I don't know, Burger King, the beach.

Everything was larger.

Okay, right.

Like a cookie jar, was just larger, which I appreciated, because I have a huge sweet tooth. I just remember this large jar of animal cookies. Yes. It just came, it was probably from Costco or something.

Oh my gosh. Yeah, big box stores. Those didn't exist.

And even the dollar stores that were probably my father's shop, everything just came in XXL size. Yeah. Totally.

We were in Cuba not terribly long ago. I guess eight years ago we were in Cuba and we befriended this young woman and she had only left Cuba one time. I said, where did you go? And she said, I went to Russia. And I go, what did you think?

Where did she go?

I was like, wait. Yeah, where?

Well, that's what a state of disrepair Cuba is. Yeah. The electricity's going, even when we were there. Like the electricity's going out nonstop, the elevators don't work, buildings are crumbling. So she went there and she was like, this place is like a Swiss clock.

Yeah, everything felt cleaner. Just the roads, having five lanes on a freeway.

It was huge. And what'd your mom think?

So my mom arrived and she just thought I had a really bad haircut, and that was only because my father just.

He was handling that?

Wasn't very skillful. He was handling everything and all the clothes I were wearing were completely mismatched. So she was like, I gotta get my daughter back on track here.

What did he do, job-wise out here?

Just a bunch of jobs. Very random. Piecing it together, finding a few dollars here and a few dollars there.

Could you feel the stress of it? Not at all. Well, because this is my hunch and I don't want it to sound derogatory at all to Russia, but I would imagine even a low income lifestyle in Florida might be still kind of more bells and whistles than it was back in Russia.

Yes, we were comfortable back home. We didn't have much, but we had enough. When I look back on my childhood in the first five, six years there, I didn't see anything wrong with it. I was a kid and I had a great upbringing and I was with my parents and I ate yummy food and I had a few friends and I played a sport. I don't look back at it and think, oh, I desperately needed to get out of that situation.

Did school feel inanely frivolous to you?

I loved school.

You loved it. And how did you get on in school? Because you're obviously learning the language.

I was mostly homeschooled. I attended a school at an academy in Florida.

Is this part of IMG? Yes. They had a school system?

So they had a school system for athletes that travel.

Quickly, this is where Andre Agassi trained. Okay, yeah.

Many, many athletes.

And that was the goal. That's why they went to Florida is to get this incredible place.

Yeah, I mean, it was just a training factory and it had school and several other sports. And the greatest part about that academy is that you had so many kids that you could compete with. So you just immediately understood your level. You had girls and boys from all around the world that you were testing yourself against, so.

Wait, why is Florida, is it just because of this IMG? Now I'm remembering.

It's almost the epicenter of academies of the sport. when someone says Florida in a tennis academy, that's immediately where everyone's mind goes.

It's like Serena and Venus Ross.

Yeah, exactly. Yes, Andre, yeah.

Coco is there currently, right?

No, I believe she trained or trains in France, but I could be wrong.

Okay, okay.

You know, you guys are the exact same age.

I know, we established that before.

We did, yes.

I know, you've lived many more lives than me, so I feel a bit intimidated.

Yeah, well, on the height and the, yeah, it doesn't. Okay, well, you don't need to put your own. You said, intimidated. I love, though, that you're the same age, because it's really. I know.

I was learning how to ride a bike in my garage.

I still don't know how to ride a bike, by the way. Yes, I love that. I'm not very good, so on my way here, I had a call with one of your dear friends, Adam Grant. Oh!

We love Adam.

Yes, he's doing a book tour shortly, so we're discussing something about that, and he always laughs at me when I tell him that I'm not very sporty. Oh, that's hilarious. He finds that very funny. He's like, what do you mean? you're not sporty?

Uh-huh. How do you do with swimming? Because Monica also struggles with swimming.

I swim, okay, but more in the Mediterranean than the pool. Okay, okay. So, with a glass of rosé.

Exactly, yeah. Were there any boyfriends along the way in this Florida? No.

No, I was still really young, and then I started coming out to LA at like 11, 12.. Okay. So I was still young. There was a coach here that I started coming out to see, and I'd come out every few months. Remember, my father actually found this coach, and he was making a little bit more money, and he said, and just collecting a few extra dollars and saying, when I have enough, we're going to buy a plane ticket to Los Angeles because you're going to go see this coach.

It's scary there.

And I love, ever since 12 years old, I've been basically living in California. Oh, really?

I thought you were in Florida for the bulk of all this.

I would still go back and forth.

But you're at a camp, and there's co-eds, and they're away from a lot of supervision. I would imagine that there would be so many cute crushes happening now. Everyone's too focused, is that it?

We had a little apartment with my father. I did stay for like six months or something, and it was with other girls, and they were much older than I was. That was actually quite a difficult period of my stays there, because they didn't accept that I was good at one thing, and that I was super focused, and I wasn't part of the friends group.

Okay, so this came as a great shock to us, but when we interviewed Sean White, we would have imagined everyone in the snowboard world loved him and the skateboard world, where he was a champion in both worlds. And he's like, no, nobody liked me. They hated that. I was at the competition because I won them. all the time.

That's exactly how it felt when I was in the dorm. I was young. I was there on a scholarship. I mean, we could not afford-.

It was 35 grand a year, right?

And now it's, I think, like three times as much. But yeah, at the time it was probably that, and my parents could definitely not afford that. And so I was so lucky that I had that scholarship and that I was able to board there for some time, but also just to be able to train. And I knew everyone that boarded there paid the fees, and everyone that boarded there also knew that I didn't pay the fees. And so it's kind of a sticky subject, right?

You're a wunderkind, right? At 13, you start competing in the 16-year-old class. So your first kind of touch of glory is 13 and winning in a 16-year-old division. And then deciding to go professional after that at 14?.

Yes.

Have you met a 14-year-old lately? I know in your own mind, you probably think you were so old, but have you talked to a 14-year-old lately?

No, I appreciate that it's just- They're babies. Yes. So there was a limit on how many tournaments you could play. So when you say I turned professional, it wasn't that I was playing like 20 tournaments a year, but I was playing girls that were in their 20s.

She turned pro on her 14th birthday.

And lost badly.

How did you take both the winning and the losing?

Back then, or in general?

Back then.

I was tough on myself.

Can I argue, from what you've told me about your life, it's not like you have 25 friends that you're also celebrated in that world and you're gonna go out to a pizza place and have a blast. This is what you do. This is virtually all you do, I'm imagining.

Right.

So when you lose and you've dedicated, you've really sacrificed the whole rest of your life for this thing. I have to imagine it's worse than when I would have lost. I don't know.

I have always thought that losing, and perhaps that's a lesson that my dad taught me. Perhaps it's something that I learned along the way. But I think losing sets you up for winning. I think the lessons that you learn when you are not at your best is when you're doing your best work. I never thought that I was playing my best tennis when I was at the top of my sport or number one in the world.

It's the silver medal complex.

Yes.

Right? That people that get bronze are happier than you.

In tennis, though, it's not silver medal. It's you lost or you won. And that's worse than-.

Zero sum.

Yeah, which sucks.

So that's to say that losing, as tough as it was, I appreciated the lessons that losing gave.

There's nothing to learn from a win, virtually.

Winnings, I don't want to say it's easy, because it's not, but there were moments in my career when I would play so well and I would win a tournament, maybe two in a row, and I'd be on this winning streak that, in a sense, I forgot how to lose. It's very dangerous to forget how to lose, because losing is an emotion that you have to go through on your own, but also it's an acceptance with your team to tell them, I played like crap and I lost. for these reasons. You have to be honest. You have to be so raw.

You lose the ability to walk through that gracefully.

My theory on players that do really well for a big tournament and then perhaps another one and then lose early, then it's very difficult to kind of get back on track because it takes a lot more work.

Like the self-examination. That makes sense.

Will you consult tape? Like, is it that detailed?

It's as detailed as you want it to be. You have to decide for yourself what team member you want and you also have to pay for them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's like, do you need a physical therapist? Do you need a fitness coach?

Yeah.

Whereas a team provides those and has those on hand and you tap into them. Right.

Stay tuned for more Armchair Experts, if you dare.

I think it's the best test of character. And that's not just about the athlete themselves, but also the team. I want to win with a coach that knows how to lose with me. I want to know that I can be in their presence and they can accept a tougher version of Maria that's upset and perhaps not happy with how training has gone in the past few months or wants to see change, or whatever it is. Having a difficult conversation, I want to choose a partner and a coach that is honest about it and accepts it and gives it back to me.

Do you think that this ability to take an honest and thorough inventory of your play has transferred into your interpersonal relationships? Do you think you're good at acknowledging when you and your partner have a fight? Are you able to apply that same skill?

Now we're getting into relationships, Nat.

That's what the show's all about, Maria. I see.

It's just a conversation.

That feels very Russian of you. Is that a kind of Russian characteristic?

It's a great characteristic.

I'm more of an observer. And then when I'm confident in what I want to say, or I feel like I've done enough research about something and I have conviction in my thoughts, then I say it. That's why I didn't think that I could be a good commentator, because I don't just like to fill up the oxygen with words.

I would say, in America, it's so valued that you have an opinion and a point of view that you often just start expressing an opinion, hoping you will know what your opinion is by midway through.

You don't even know what it is.

You're just saying stuff. It is so American. Right now, I think it's the problem with the world is that everyone feels that they have to have an opinion on absolutely everything and they have to say it loudly and everyone has to hear it.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's not interesting how-. It's a huge problem. You have to have, that's what I'm finding. I don't know if challenging, but there's definitely this extra weight on everyone where you're put in a position to have something to say without really having the time to figure out what it is that you want to convey.

Everyone has willingly become publishers of a newspaper, which is, they have to fill their timeline, be it on Twitter or Instagram or wherever. They've got to fill it with content as if they're a magazine, but they don't have the time or a staff to actually put out the content. It's a skill. Right, right, right.

Or they're running on an algorithm. Then it starts running your life.

Yes.

That's my beef with social media. There's an external pressure of constantly having to show up for it so that there's relevance in this digital universe of your presence.

Made up thing, the thing we made up. Yeah.

It's crazy. Yeah, and I never had anyone help with any things that I've done on social, but I've definitely faced that pressure of, oh, if I don't post for a week, then no one's ever going to see my post when I do make that post.

Right, yes, yes.

But then you have to stay true to who you are and you have to beat to your own drum. Is that the saying? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Walk to the beat of your own drum. Dance to the beat of your own drum. Sure, it's all in there. Beat your own drum, I think, is the common denominator. Of course, I got it wrong.

Wait, relationships. We left that dangling.

We left that dangling. Everyone has a different way of approaching conflict and conversations, and you're right. I have the same approach as I had in my career. where it's thoughtful, I give it some time, but I'm not very patient and I'm very stubborn. Yeah, me too, me too.

And I can't imagine you're terribly afraid of confrontation, because, again, I don't think you could have gotten where you've gotten without having to have very difficult conversations with coaches and colleagues.

No, I'm okay with it. You are, right?

Yes, exactly. This is a high-octane combo. I have the same one. Don't mind confrontation, very impatient.

I think stubbornness leads you to several good things in life. Persistence and resilience. And when you have some type of feedback, that's difficult, but you just get through it, you take it as it is and then just keep going. So I think it served me well, but in some instances in my career, I think was the deficit.

There's so many highlights we could go through, but one I want to jump to is 04.. So, at 17 years old, you win your first Grand Slam, Wimbledon, 17 years old, against Serena.

Yes.

Now that I've seen how tall you are, I have a little less of this question, but I can't imagine a more intimidating opponent at 17 in the finals at Wimbledon. I need to know what was happening mentally. How were you regulating yourself? Were you intimidated? Do you have a zone you go to?

There was so much on the line in that match. One of the biggest reasons was because it was Wimbledon. I actually had just played Serena a few months back at a tournament in Miami, and she easily won that match in two sets. And it was the moment itself where I really felt the weight. It was the fact that Wimbledon, in my eyes, growing up, was the event, the tournament, the place where, as a professional, you want to end up, you want those fringe doors to open to center court.

If the season had ended, that would have been an enormous. Great, right, right.

I found myself in this flow state in the middle of the event, playing against someone that also should have beaten me, but I won that match so confidently and so routinely. And it felt like I was letting go of all the repetition that I put. I was letting go of any fear that I had. And I just allowed the moment and my skill to shine through.

Would you say there's a bit of magic involved? Like why it hits you. when it hits you? You could prepare in the same way, I'd imagine, for a thousand matches.

And it never works the same.

Right, so there is some bizarre ethereal magic that takes over, right?

To think how many things have to align and work for you to get to that moment. Yes. And what a big, big deal it is. And I think it was also a gift that I'd never been in that position. And so, as a 17-year-old, I was fearless because I didn't have any experience.

Yeah, period.

And I've been, because I was so young, on the cover of every paper every day since the fourth round of this tournament. And the British media adds like everything.

Oh, it's like the story of the-.

Just like boiling to this moment. And if you can just only win this match, right?

Yeah.

And I had horse blinders on. It was just me. It was just my opponent. And even though all those external factors that I just mentioned were present in every way, I didn't think about them at all.

They were deep in the deep background.

I woke up that morning. We stayed at a family's house. We rented the upper floor. It was like, I want to say bed and breakfast, but they didn't even give us breakfast. It was just a bed.

Do you think maybe it was manifested, the cold a little bit? Because there's so much fear.

Oh, I'm sure.

The body showed a way to tell. A way out almost.

I mean, probably. Yeah. I was like, get me out of this.

The body's like, this is so stressful. We're going to give you an excuse.

Yeah, exactly.

And I was like, no, I'm still showing up.

This was going to be a overall question, but I'm uniquely interested at this moment in time. When do you know you can win? Do you know?

You don't.

So you don't have a moment where you go, I'm going to win.

No.

You don't.

Tennis isn't like that, though, because I feel like it could change.

Just too many opportunities.

There's so many momentum swings. And it's also that feeling, everyone functions differently in those moments and scenarios. But I was never a player that wanted to feel overly confident. I liked when my preparation wasn't exactly going according to plan, or when I wasn't my best physically, because I'd get on the stage and like that first round match, and I knew I had to put an extra. I didn't like that feeling of content, of feeling like, oh, things are going well.

When you walk out and it's about to start, do you at any point think, I'm going to win or I'm going to lose? Or I'm scared or I'm not scared? Or is that not there?

In preparation, you definitely put a few scenarios through your mind, because you compare yourself to different matches against that opponent. Also, I'd like to do video analysis, so the older I got, the more video I had to watch, and the more times I'd face these opponents. And it's very rare that you had, like a 6-0 win to loss record. So there are definitely times where you lost to those opponents, and I'd love to look at those matches, because those are real. Those are moments that could happen, and they could happen again, and also, like my body language, I like to examine, did I show my opponent that this wasn't my day?

I love that tennis show on Netflix so much. You're on it. Breakpoint. Yes, Breakpoint. So good.

It's fun seeing everyone's feedback on it, because I think it's the first time that a show has been done on the sport. And there are times where it's quite dark. And the one piece of feedback I've received is people hadn't really appreciated how dark and lonely it is.

If I had to list in order the most mental games, you know, if it's not number one, I feel like it's tied maybe with like golf too. I see golfers, what golfers go through over those three days, and like they're ahead, they're ahead, they're ahead, and then something just-.

Clicks the wrong way.

They don't not have the ability to do it. It's so clearly 100% mental. Do you think tennis is number one as far as being just mental, mental, mental?

I think you may have more opportunity because both golf and tennis, the schedules are so long. And this idea of constantly having to show up and having a responsibility and an average amount is probably like 19 to 20 tournaments a year. And when you're not playing a tournament, you're training. So the pressure of constantly having to perform at a high level, and everything that comes with just being an athlete at an event, the sponsor responsibilities, the interviews, the press, you have a schedule of things. at Formula One.

And the teams hosting parties, that the sponsors are there and you gotta be there at night and you gotta be there in the morning.

And then how do you wake up and want to?

Do your job.

Beat someone?

Yeah.

When so much of your energy is drained. I think it also just shows you, when there is that individual and that star, right? That wins over and over, how special it is because of everything else that they've also had to be responsible for.

Yeah, that's really true.

Not just the tennis part.

Can we wrap up, Serena? Is that the greatest victory? Is that the most?

It's the most memorable.

Relief you've ever felt? I can't believe this happened.

It wasn't even relief.

It was like, you're so young. You don't really even know the stakes of what you're doing in a weird way.

It's strange being an athlete in the midst of their sport, because, as much as you realize how special it is to hold like the big trophies, it's almost like an artist that has to pass away or become older for everyone else and for themselves to acknowledge and realize what weight they had in that field.

It's hard to be present in it.

Because it's a cycle that just constantly continues. And I'm not saying that's great. It is what it is. And you can't get ahead of yourself. You can't think, oh, I'm just the Wimbledon champion.

But that must be hard not to.

Especially with your favorite approach, which is, I need to feel a little bit off, a little bit underdoggy, a little chaotic.

Like I'm on the cliff. But when all the calls But feel the rock trembling a little bit.

are coming in and they're asking you to be on the cover of this, that must be hard.

Well, that's where your team comes in. That's where the no's are so important. That's when you need a bulldog at the gate saying, hey, I'm protecting here. You have to say no in order for better opportunities and for a powerful yes to come about. This is a subject that comes up often.

When you were talking about your dad, he was your coach for a while. Was it complicated?

It's always complicated when dad's involved.

Yeah, I bet, right? Yeah.

Of course. Well, you just said Lewis. Like Lewis at some point had to fire his father. Right.

I mean, I did too. At 21 years old.

That's what I wanted to ask about.

So my father was my coach from the very beginning, for one reason, because we didn't have money for another option. The longer he was my coach, the more he knew about me and my game and knew what was best for me. And so that is what I appreciated is that there was no one else that knew my struggles and my challenges and my game, and the belief that he had in me was exceptional. But he also knew how to challenge me in the right ways, which, in the dynamic of a father-daughter, is very hard. How much do you push your child so that they get the most out of this, but they're not in a year or two saying, no, dad, you pushed me so much that I wanna leave.

I imagine what'd be hard about that is it's working, even up till 21,, like it's working, you're yielding results. You're ranked number one at 18.. You win the US Open, then you win the Australian Open. All this happens before you have to fire him. So I would imagine, it's not like you have the best case to make, like this isn't working.

It's that I wanted to do it on my own. Yeah. We got there as a team and we're a phenomenal team, and I felt mature enough to make that decision because I was comfortable with where my game was. I was comfortable with the other team that I had. And it was also, I wanted him to enjoy his life.

Yeah.

He was fine with it.

I think some part of me would also be like, hey, just be my dad. now. Like, let me just be your daughter. You be my dad.

I don't think I thought that that would ever be an issue for him. I knew that he would always be there as a dad. It was actually because I made that decision after winning my third Grand Slam that I said, now is when I want to make the change. I was taking a huge chance. Yeah.

Yeah, let me fix something that's not broken at all.

Yeah.

We just want time to make a change.

I mean, that happens all the time now, by the way. It does.

Well, I had a global question for you, because we all watch these docs. You watch Tiger and you find out what his dad did. Verstappen and his father, Serena and Venus, their father. Do you think a kid can become a champion without that parent? A friend of ours, Charlie, he was a college football player.

I think you need somebody in your corner that is pushing you and protecting you. And they are very different roles. And I think when you are not perhaps connected to the child as a parent,

Did you know, did you have any peers? Like? we just watched the Beckham documentary too. Yeah. It's like the dad's, like over and again, and again, and again and again and again.

And his dad loved soccer so much. So there's something vicarious that's happening with a lot of these parental figures where it works.

Tiger's dad, he wanted to be a golfer.

But what's so interesting about these parent characters is it's not that they knew what success looked like, because they themselves have never reached it at that level. Right. And so it's so interesting to watch them go through their sons or their daughter's journey, and how do they handle it and how do they keep their egos in check? It's like a big.

Yeah.

So complicated.

It's very, very complex. Your boy isn't old enough yet, but already ours are eight and 10, and anything spectacular that they do, you have to check yourself. Your first thought is like, yep, I'm doing a great job. I got him to do that. And then the other brother is like, you didn't have anything to do with this.

My son made a owl sound and I was like, oh, I mean genius. Genius, he's gotta be, that came from me.

And then you go, and it's because I read to him and I look him in the eye. You take some ownership over their stuff.

I love that feeling, though. I was joking from the beginning because, as I was cleaning like milk bottles, I just looked back at my career and thinking of all the sports drink bottles that I would clean after a day of practice. And I was like, it is as if my previous life has set me up for success in this. Right. I've got this down.

Repetition, how many diapers have you changed?

It's all gone. More than Alexander.

Yeah.

Oh boy. Putting him under the bus.

So your career is spectacular. You're a career Grand Slam winner.

That sounds very fancy. It is very fancy.

For people who don't maybe know that much about tennis.

Okay, so right, there's a bunch of tournaments throughout the year. There's four majors. There's the Australian Open, the French Open, Wimbledon and US Open. And if you were to win all of them in your career, that's called a career Grand Slam. If you win all those.

It could be a glam slam too. That'd be cool.

Well, I was already starting to say the next thing, which is a fun one, which is a golden Grand Slam, which is if you win an Olympic gold and a Grand Slam, you can be a golden Grand Slam. There's a lot of different.

There's a lot of variety. Pick your own little holiday basket.

But your career is spectacular. I am curious, because you won silver in the London Olympics 2012.. And there's been all this wonderful social science about the plague of silver. People enjoy bronze. They like winning a bronze.

I mean, I like bronze too, for my house fixtures. Yeah.

Yeah, some nice waterworks, bronze. Were you bummed that you won a silver in the Olympics? I guess that's my question.

It was the only Olympics that I competed in.

Yeah, because you couldn't go to Beijing because you had your rotator cuff.

Yes, and the first one after Wimbledon was too late or too young. So one of those, I don't even remember. I, of course, as an athlete. You won gold. You won gold.

A lay person would assume, myself included, if I won a silver in the Olympics, I would be on top of the world. But that's not the case. It's very well documented.

Yeah, like in tennis, it's either the champion's trophy or it's as if you weren't there. But there was huge significance in that. the feeling of being part of, like for a tennis player that plays so many events, it does almost take away the meaning of what the Olympics is, because you're just constantly going from one event to another. And although the majors are where you want to perform the best, the Olympics is at that level, but it's once in four years. So you move on to the next one.

You don't have time to wallow.

You don't have time.

Yeah, that's kind of a blessing, yeah.

In some ways. Yeah.

In other ways, it burbles up because you never processed it. You're like arguing with your husband and all of a sudden the silver medal's-.

Somewhere there, dangling, dangling.

Is it on display anywhere?

No, if you come to my home, you wouldn't even know I play tennis.

Well, that's nice.

Her home was in Architectural Digest.

It's gorgeous. Oh, you saw her house.

Yeah, it's so, it's so beautiful.

I'm mad, I didn't see it.

You can see it.

I'm gonna check it out.

I'm nosy as a motherfucker.

I mean, you did do your homework. You've got the stats right.

But you can imagine where someone who does have a trophy case at home.

Yeah, I don't have a trophy case.

Imagine someone not putting their silver medal on it because it would remind them that they were mad.

I guess, I guess. But tennis, I guess, like you said, it's sort of like basketball. The U.S. basketball team, they just pop into the Olympics, it seems like.

Sure, sure, sure.

Then they pop out, they're back to their normal.

It's not the same. And they'd certainly rather win the NBA final.

They just add a little extra weight to their suitcase.

Yes, it's just an added thing. It's not the most important thing.

It is special, but you do move on very quickly.

Just really quick. If I had the silver medal, that's how you'd have to knock on my front door. It would be strapped to the front door and you'd have to use it to climb, climb, climb, climb. Yes, it'd be the knocker.

Or a door stopper.

That would be also good. You should dig it up and use it as a doorstop.

Sure, I mean, be my guest. You can borrow it.

I would love to rent it off you and put it on. Put it in here with all our knickknacks.

In your knickknacks. Yeah.

It would look so good. Okay, also interesting about your career. It's not new, but the level at which you did it was novel in that you were very, very busy with lots of business as well. You were the spokesperson. I think people always had racket contracts and sneakers, but you were doing fashion.

So I was eager to learn. The amazing part about being in a room with big brands is that these are individuals that are very smart. They're the best of the best in marketing and advertisement, CFOs to CEOs. And it was like a free education on my day job. And there was a choice just to be the face of a brand and to show up to a Tiffany shoot or to a Porsche shoot.

Clearly it interested you, the business aspect.

I acknowledged that tennis wouldn't be my entire life. And it's really hard to do that as an athlete, because it is your universe and it's such a big part of your identity. And so you're afraid to realize that is a part of your life, but it's not all of you.

Yeah, it would feel dangerous to acknowledge that. Like you, might lose your mojo.

Exactly. I love the idea. I mean, when I would travel and they would still have those forms that you'd fill out, like your name and what's your occupation, handwriting. that I was an athlete brought so much joy to me. Like that was my identity.

You're like free shoulder surgery.

You have free time. besides the rehab and getting yourself back and staying in shape. You have time to learn. I wanted to get in the weeds of businesses because, for some reason, I realized that this would be like my life moving forward.

I'm so fascinated. The ultimate rags to riches story. If you come from the Soviet Union with $700 and then you become the highest paid female athlete for 11 years in a row, what's the family's relationship with that abundance?

It's so funny. I don't spend a lot on things that you think I spend on like shoes. I like shoes, but you go into my closet and you're like, what, where are the rest of the shoes? I don't have a lot of things in my house because aesthetically I just appreciate less. And so when I do buy, I don't buy cheaply.

You are really preaching to the choir. Oh, those little shops.

And I love taking my friends on those journeys. I would only have two weeks of vacation every year, maybe 10 days. So one week a year, I promised to my mom and to my friends that every November off season, I take them to an extravagant vacation.

Nice.

So when I started making money, I remember the first big moment, holiday moment was I went to the Amman in Phuket. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I must've gained, I mean, all I ate was like sticky rice.

and white rice, and this rice, mango rice.

How ironic. you also worked with Amman, no?

Yeah, I become a wellness ambassador, as they call me, which is a funny title, but I am curating retreats. I'm bringing in talent that I used to work with in my career, everything from recovery to breath work to performance, working out, just like a holistic approach for their clients for three days. So that's why I mentioned Phuket, because our first one is going to be in Phuket.

Oh, it is?

Yeah, in February, which is very exciting.

And you're taking Monica and I.

We are, are these just athletes or are we...

No, they're inner athletes. Could definitely be.

I'm an inner athlete.

But you have cute stories of like. you won Wimbledon and you had been to California so many times, as you already said. And after Wimbledon, you went to California, but you stayed in a very nice hotel.

It actually wasn't that it was so nice. It was definitely an upgrade from where we were staying before. I went back to my coach for training week after winning Wimbledon, after taking a couple of days off, and my manager booked us into a different hotel. and we show up at this hotel, and it's very close to the ocean. You could hear the waves.