Synced: Vorsh!

Liz, you're home. You've been gone. I have been gone, and I almost brought you a mug, but I was like, she for sure has the London Starbucks mug, and I'm drinking out of it right now. Actually, is that from here, right? It is.

mine that I've left here. This is an occupational hazard, but yeah, I have one. Okay, good. But you had pig day. I had pig day.

or is it hard? I think it's both. It is tight. It's a tight turn. There's a pivot.

tight turn. It's a really big tree, and he's funny. He is funny. I always set the stand up, and then he comes rushing in and stumbling in, and then he does a thing called vorshing. It's like his way of...

Vorsh. He gets an abortion? No. Okay. No, no, no, no, no.

where he's trying to muster up all his energy. If he's picking up the tree, right? Where it's like when weightlifters go, like, huh, sure. It's that, but instead of the huh, he says, vorsh. And so, he had to vorsh like seven or eight times to get it in the right spot.

to see. Let me send you the tree. Okay, great. My roommate and I decided to do a pink tree. Lovely.

it's her. Yeah. She's told us. I know. That's how it works.

like a separate Instagram account for it, I think it's fine. Okay. I think. if you are doing... Okay, no, I don't want to say that, because some people might take it personally.

but also why? Anyone can make their email. Like, why does it have to be your just name? Yeah. Mine's not.

at Gmail would be pretty dope. If you had the original Monica, that's cool. That's cool. Okay,

that's cool, but there's been so many Monicas before me. That's only if you name a kid like.

Vorsch.

a blog page sort of, but a lot of people had them and they would just write their thought. It was kind of like an online diary in a way. Do you remember it? I do. We made a website in like.

fourth or fifth grade. Okay. Does that make sense? That's early. I know.

somewhere. Should we Google it? No, I'm not in the mood.

go find it if it exists. Well, people loved your diary. I think you should bring it back. We could do a part two. It's high demand.

translate. Language barrier.

to get it back in. Same. That and Twitter, by the way. But who cares? That's not a loss.

he was the hottest guy in school. Okay. He was so hot and beautiful model face like my tree. Oh, God. But Ashley was also the most beautiful girl in school.

on the rankings? Would you make rankings in your diary of boys and friends? Yeah. I mean,

now, in retrospect, it's funny to say that's the hottest person in our school, right? Because now you know more about life and hotness.

it's a little bit more complicated. I think that's right. Yes. Here's the difference. I think this is truly backed up by data.

is good looking too, by the way. Yeah. And Ross. They made all these people.

nerds and weird, and really they're all hot. 100%. But with girls, I think that's a little harder to... Even a girl who's really... Again, it's not as high.

that age in high school, everyone's just trying to fucking survive it and figure out their way to the top of the food chain. It's very cutthroat. And so, I think for boys... Well, okay, my dairy queen boy, he wanted to date me, but he couldn't by the standards of the school and the world. at the time.

Sure. Fitting within the normative standards of beauty, which, again, men outwardly claim to have. certain standards, or, again, stereotype of men want to date models, but that's because that makes them look good to other men. Exactly. But not necessarily because of what they prefer.

Actually, now that we're talking about it, there was a guy in our high school, I bet he was kind of daxy a little bit, where he was bad. He was like a bad boy. And I was such a good girl that I was like, I don't understand this, because everyone wanted to fuck him. Wow. Not really.

he would 100% be my pick. Okay. So now you go for bad boys. Well, no, I just think I probably.

didn't let myself... I was also doing such a fucked up thing in my own head about wanting people. I couldn't have mainly. But within that, wanting the model looking boy or the number two model looking boy, I wanted that status too. I was doing more of probably what the boys were doing, as far as just like seeking a very specific look and person for status.

having a boyfriend gives you higher status than for boys having a girlfriend.

I think, will just bring it up more. There's a lot of women in my life who bring up their partners so much, but it's not a status thing, so much as they give these men a ton of power in their life. I see it. The phrase even blah, blah, blah says, have you ever heard that? No.

Also women, we just give away our power, period. Well, me and you have talked about this recently,

where I've been. like, Liz, you do this. Not just to men, I think you do it to a lot of people.

No. And lately I've been seeing it with women in my life where I'm like, I've had to, I mean, again, with your help and guidance, I'm thankful to be challenged in that way. Well, you're very receptive, which I appreciate. Oh, thanks. The best thing you can do for your friends is to hold up a mirror, right?

It's almost like a programming, right? It is an early programming. That's what Orna would say.

Whose? Couple's there. Oh, is that her last name? That's her first name. Oh, that's her first name?

so nervous. Yes. Let's practice. Okay. Let's practice.

Okay. I have to be someone who is what? You have to be asking me for something. I don't want to, I don't want to do. I don't want to do.

Okay. Uh, Liz, I want you to talk publicly about your poop this morning. Okay.

morning. Did you? I actually didn't, which makes, well, I I'm jet lagged.

Oh, I think that's part of it. Okay. Liz, I want you to talk publicly about the worst.

sexual experience you ever had. Okay. You want me to talk about the, okay. Okay.

Most embarrassing. Most embarrassing. Yeah. Okay. I want you to talk about it on the show.

So that they feel seen. Okay. Okay. Okay. You already feel like you're coming on my side?

important. Okay. Truly. Because if people don't hear these types of things, they feel so alone. And then people are having less sex in the world.

shame. Okay.

You love to clear the air for people. Yeah. It's one of your tenets. It's one of my tenets.

I also, okay, let me just say, I also think that I do that. naturally. That is how I talk. And it's not a technique. It's just how I talk.

Wow, that's great.

So I am okay at it. But okay, so we're back to the, okay, so people not feeling shame is really important to you. And it's really important to me. So how can we work together so that that can happen?

I think you could just tell the story of your most embarrassing sexual experience. Yeah. I think you should just do it. Yeah. You think I should just do it?

What's holding me back is, would you want to share your most horrible experience?

I don't have very many sexual experiences. And that's unfortunate for me. But you do.

I do. I do. Okay. Would it be ridiculous if I shared my most embarrassing story of an accident that I got into instead? Would that be ridiculous that I would share that?

I want it to be less shame around sex. Around sex. So it doesn't make sense if you tell an accident.

It doesn't make sense. But isn't sex an accident? Don't? those things kind of connect for a lot of people? No.

Well, I know that it's not an accident. Well, it can be an accident.

It can be.

Shame around sex is so different than shame around getting in an accident. The Venn diagram can cross, but sex has to be in there for the shame piece around sex to go away.

Well, if you've never had an embarrassing sex experience, how would you know that? You've never had an embarrassing sexual situation.

Well, I'm afraid to.

You're afraid to.

Yeah. I'm afraid to, and part of it is because no one talks about scary sex stuff. And how would—. So I'm never having sex again until I hear this.

But how would sharing a negative story make you more likely to engage in it?

Because then it shows that these things happen, that it's okay, that then you can have an embarrassing sex story and then have a great sex story after, or not, or everything can be fine if that is part of your story.

But what if you—.

I'm just never going to have sex again until you tell me this, and it'll probably affect my well-being.

Well, we don't want that. I want to make sure that your well-being is good.

So you should probably tell me the story.

So, in order for your well-being to be better, you need to hear more embarrassing stories about sex. Just about me.

Okay. Well, Rob can share one too, but I would prefer it to be you, because you're a woman, and I can relate more to a woman.

You can relate more to a woman.

Wow, it's just ingrained.

But it's probably just ingrained.

But do you think part of it is because you're trying to buy time?

No. Well, so he says it's so that you show that you're listening, and then also you're giving an opportunity for the person to share more. So I say, oh, that would help your well-being. And then you're like, yeah, because— Because, again, in a normal conversation, you would not just be, like, hammering the same— You would be like, yeah, it would help my well-being a lot because—.

Well, you've never negotiated with the true tailors before. Clearly, clearly. Okay. I think you need to practice a little bit more, maybe more sessions with me before you enter the hostage negotiation.

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That's so awesome. Yeah. And like you're putting serums like close to your eye, close to your brain. You want it to be clean. Like you do.

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Interesting.

Do you, you know?

I don't think so.

Well, you're always calm.

That's very sweet. But no, I get spirally in moments of crisis. I would not say I get calm, but I do get sprung into action. Okay. Immediately.

Just a layer of. Yeah. Okay.

It's a thin layer of mania circling. Wow. Okay. Even when I thought you were dead that time.

Yes.

That was happening.

But you were pretty smart. You were doing some interesting zigzag moves.

But that's what I mean. I spring into action. What do I do? Okay. This is what I do.

Right.

It's all about figuring it out.

You did.

I did figure it out. You did. Not saying that's good, by the way. That wasn't good.

Well, but it is to me, again, I obviously wasn't dead. And I also wasn't next to you. So I don't know the emotional state you were in. But the actions were very strategic. And like, I'm impressed.

Thank you. But it is bad because it is taking a major mental toll. Yeah. When I'm in that headspace. And even just the way I said that, the way I rolled this all out.

Oh, no.

Is it like, I need to fix it? Is your go-to and has been your go-to from a young age?

Definitely. And what I'm really realizing now, we've talked about it a little bit on Armchair, is, I'm just so afraid everyone's going to die all the time. And so when I have an instinct that that could be happening, it feels like it's all on me to prevent it. So whether it's like an addict thing or you and I didn't know. And I was like, oh, my God, but maybe she's depressed.

And when was the first time? you remember feeling that way?

I really don't know. It's so strange how old it is because it doesn't match up the level of fear with the things that have happened in my life. You would think, from age one to now, I've had just like so much death and so much chaos. And I haven't in that way. I mean, I have in some ways.

But it's also. trauma is not what happens to you. It's how you understand or how you make sense of what happens. Because I will go there, too, where I'm like, why am I so... Like, I didn't grow up in a house with abuse and drugs everywhere.

It's different. Right?

So, yeah, like, did you feel like you could talk to your parents? Or did you feel like you were a burden or that they couldn't really help you?

I didn't feel like I was a burden, but I also didn't feel like they understood stuff. I remember when I went to my mom and I was like, I want short legs. Like I was so annoyed that this really cool girl had short legs and I didn't.

It's one of my favorite stories just ever. It's so cute.

And I am like distraught and telling my mom, I don't like this. I want short legs. And she is just appalled. Like, why? What the fuck are you talking about?

So she's not trying to understand what you mean by that. She doesn't think, yeah, she doesn't think. 30 years later, you'll remember that.

Exactly. She's like rushing out the door to work, to make money for the fucking house and all this shit. And I'm like, I want short legs. It's like, no one has time for this bullshit. Stop it.

But she didn't also say that.

She might have said, she never said you're perfect. But she might have said people want long legs like yours. But all I heard really was nobody wants what you want. Like. nobody wants short legs.

Hello.

We have a guest today. Yeah, we have a guest.

How are you? We've been listening to it. I always love that. It's a different Taylor Swift song. But this morning it was The One.

He's into it now. He's into The One. right now. You're doing folklore?

Because I feel like usually it's been midnight. It's now getting into your folklore era.

You've already passed my knowledge. Like what you just said sounds esoteric to me. I do know the name of the three songs that are on my playlist.

Okay.

Lavender Haze. The One. Willow.

Oh, Evermore.

Oh, Evermore. Those are not all on the same album.

No, all three different albums.

All three different albums. That's interesting because I guess they're all different vibies. But I want to say, Willow feels a little like Lavender Haze.

Oh, no.

No, no. That's wrong. That's wrong.

No, it's everyone's interpretation.

No, that's wrong. Because folklore and Evermore are sisters. They're sister albums. So those two kind of go together. Wow, Willow's not my fave.

You don't like it.

It's okay. Cowboy, like me, I feel like you would be really into if you like Willow, just saying.

Well, I'm going to give TS quite a compliment, which is to make my liked songs on Spotify, something has to be in rotation for like probably six weeks. Like I got to love it for six weeks and listen to it a lot, to commit it to my liked songs. It has to stay on the test of time. So, like I am more scrutinizing about what goes on my liked songs than anything. It's so important to me.

Have you ever unliked?

I have. Yeah. Some have been in there and then I'm like, every time it comes on, it drops the vibe a little bit. So, all that to say, Taylor got two liked ads within the span of three hours on Friday. That's a first.

That's huge. It is.

I do feel like it's something big.

Have you heard Dress?

Dress. Let's see if I've heard it. I mean, I have to imagine at this point I've heard every single song because of the girls.

You might not have, though, because it's on Reputation.

Reputation is sexy. I feel like if anyone would sue, it'd be her.

She has.

I need to listen to it more. I'm going to add it to my liked list. Add it.

Yeah. You know what's really funny now that we're on the topic? It's great to fuck the music, but you would never put a song on to masturbate, would you?

That would feel insane. Oh, I would, yeah.

I do too.

Oh, my gosh, congratulations, you guys.

Wow.

I can't see a man doing that, really. It's different.

What's your beat off song, Monica?

It changes. Okay. It changes. I have one right now. Which one?

Well, hold on a second.

I'm shy?

We are.

I'm shy today.

I was negotiating.

I have a quick question, though. Well, I have a guess, followed by a question. Okay. I guess this is just. am I right or wrong.

What do you mean?

Like you're listening to the song, the song makes you horny, and then you decide to masturbate. As opposed to, I'm in the mood to masturbate. I'm going to get my toy out. I'm going to put this song on.

Both. Yeah.

Both happen.

Yeah, both happen.

What a wildcat. How about you, Liz?

I have songs that remind me of... Sessions. Yeah, or a person, or like a thing, or a moment, or a session. But you know what? Women have been doing and sharing about online, which is certain foods that they'll eat while they're masturbating.

That makes so much sense.

Right?

Because I eat hard shell tacos when I masturbate.

Really?

Yes. And then, ideally, the crumbs get everywhere, and then there's an added pop.

Layer of texture. But if you're like...

What are you guys... Okay, I know you're kidding, but what?

No, no, it is. And there's this whole... Again, it's a TikTok, but this woman's like, okay, if you're in this mood, do the salty chips, like just shoving it in your mouth. If you're going for something more decadent and slow and sensual, like a truffle chocolate. During or right before?

I don't think I have the dexterity.

What about a big smoked salmon?

I mean, if that gets you off, if that gets you off. Sure, no judgment. You know?

Literally no judgment. I feel that that's not sanitary.

No, come on. One hand? Do you need two hands?

Oh, wow. I don't need two hands, but I don't like eating with my left hand, and I don't...

Want to masturbate with your left hand.

With my left hand, yeah.

That all adds up.

Honestly, I would find it too much.

Too much business.

And then I'm thinking about the food, and I'm not like... You could choke.

This is a choking hazard.

That's auto-erotic.

Yeah, for some people, that's exactly an added bonus.

Instead of strangulation, you just try to get a strawberry wedged in there temporarily.

Oh, my God.

You know, the ideal would be like some kind of food product that dissolves kind of quickly. So you could clog your passageway, and you're like... And then, just as you're about to die, it just dissolves. Like a... Jolly Rancher?

That's scary.

I'm thinking more like a macaroon. Is that the little stupid treat? I don't like? The colorful? They kind of dissolve when you put them in your mouth.

A marshmallow.

Ew, slimy.

I mean, it depends.

What's the grossest thing? you... Well, how about this?

It would have to be a small amount of ice. Tiny amount. Okay. Because then that would melt. But if you do too big, you will die.

It's too much. It is.

I'm not... Asphyxiation. I think it's great for people, but asphyxiation is not for me.

But what do you mean? asphyxiation? Like, because you're masturbating, you would be like, so out of it, you wouldn't be able to eat properly?

Kind of.

Okay. Like, I mean... You're getting into... Okay. I mean, that's the state you're in.

Multitask? Yeah.

You could like...

Maybe you send an email?

Yeah. I mean, not me sending an email, but like if someone were to walk... Like I'd be able to like... If I start to... You know what I mean?

Liz, have you ever been secretly masturbating? Like on a Zoom call or anything?

Okay. I have not...

No, no, no, no. No, I love this. Okay.

I have not done it while I'm on a Zoom call, but I've done something while someone else was on a Zoom call.

Oh, someone else was on a Zoom call and you were pleasuring that person.

Yes, but he wasn't like camera. Like it, wasn't like a creepy thing like that.

Oh, that's fun.

I mean, it was COVID.

Yeah.

You guys never did that?

Rob is looking down at the crowd.

He can't say, because all the Zooms he was on were with us. Yeah, and if we knew that Natalie was down there. Did you hear his voice changing at all during...

Oh, he wasn't talking. Was his video on? No, his video... Like. he turned the video off.

So it's less like he's trying to be composed.

Because that's the hot part, yeah.

But I think that's like a violation. It is.

I thought you were sharing that. No, well, it's exhibitionism a little bit. Yeah.

The thing is, is everything's fine? if you guys do it. Like, if it's just the unwitting guy and then his girlfriend's doing something to him and he's, just like, you know, trying to keep a straight face. There's no real problem. But if it's male initiated, also it's a problem.

Yes, yes, yes, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But it's like when you're at a restaurant and you're like playing footsies and like no one knows.

Yeah, foot up the skirt.

Yeah.

Foot up the skirt.

Foot up the skirt.

How about in a movie theater? Have you, I'm sure you've done stuff in a movie theater. If you would have like frozen time in 1987 at the Milford movie theater.

When I was getting born.

When you were getting born, yes. As you were coming out into the world. If you would have taken a snapshot of the Milford cinema in my town, 60% of the girls in the audience were getting fingered. Like it was just a finger parlor. You went in junior high.

And like next to you, it was happening also. Like everyone's, just, wow.

But the best part is, and then interspersed is like seniors from my small town.

Yeah, like grampies.

Teenagers and grammy and grampies.

Oh, and are they also doing it?

You would hope.

I hope, yeah, for them. I have a question because this came up recently. Guys in Denmark told me, because I lived there for a year. And they told me that they would watch porn together and masturbate together. And do American-.

You've done that?

Have I?

Like with Aaron?

Oh God, no. With a dude?

That's what she's saying.

Oh, I thought you were saying couple.

No, no, no, no, guys.

Like friendship groups.

They'd watch, yeah, they'd watch porn.

I stumbled into a group. Okay, I went with him. I'll not name his name. But I went with him to his parents' cabin. And then, like a few of his friends from his private school joined.

I think it's a thing. But I think guys in, again, Denmark or Europe talk about it more. And here, I think it happened, but guys still don't talk about it.

Because there's something homo, that feels homoerotic about it. Yes. So American men probably don't want to talk about it.

It came up because my friend is gay. And he was like, oh, I love that. It happened once. And like, I was having a great time. But because he was around, guys who were jerking off.

He wasn't watching the porn. He was watching the blanket bounce up and down.

He was having the best time of his life. But it is interesting too that, like guys, it's like a bonding, wow.

Okay, I think we should answer some questions.

That was fun, though. Yeah, that was a lot.

No, okay, Dax, this is- Hold on. Oh, you want to talk about masturbating some more?

I do.

Shocker.

I'm just trying to sort out in my 48 year old head, the group jerk off. Now, do women never do this, right?

No, I've never done it.

We would watch- Doesn't that sound kind of crazy if you and Monica watched the porn and jerked off together? To me, I would be like, well, next step is you're hooking up.

It wouldn't be, okay, I will say this. I've never done that. But I think for women, it wouldn't be a porn. Maybe watching like a sexy movie or something. And then you might get sort of on your own aroused.

You'd never go like, Liz, let's grab our blankets. Our masturbation blankets.

No, no, no, no.

It's insane, right?

I watched porn with my girlfriends when I was in high school, like discovering porn, right? This thing of like, we would all be at a slumber party. And then it gets to that time of the night where, I don't know how it would happen, but there would be porn. But we were not-.

You were more like anthropologists.

We were laughing at it. And I do, actually, now that we're talking about it, I remember, I was definitely knew that I was, you know,

I had sexual feelings for women. Yes.

Oh, my God, thank you. I'm like, what is she trying to say? I've missed nine conversations. No, no, no, no.

No, I definitely knew that. again. I had questions around it, right? And watching this porn, I remember being turned on by watching the woman. And I remember all of the girls being like, ew, so gross.

So clearly, you know what I mean?

It was titillating. Yes. Okay, but there's something maybe we could drill even deeper into that. You liking and identifying, or enjoying the woman. So I know that I like the penis in a porn.

You're putting yourself in his position.

It's not that I want dick, but I love seeing that version. And I'm mirror neuron-ing him in my fantasy where I'm King, Titan or whatever. This is fulfilling that.

Is that your fantasy?

I don't even know who King Titan is. Is that from Mermaid?

Yeah, I think it's Little Mermaid.

Does he have a big hog?

Probably.

Yeah, he's got BD.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, BD, for sure.

Yeah, he does.

For sure. Does that make any sense, though? That, like, you're kind of observing with a certain interest, the same sex because of the mirror neuron aspect of it.

Well, for sure. And there are so many women, everybody, right? But I know women who aren't hooking up with women and identifies very straight, but will enjoy watching porn. Yes. Or again, watching porn with their boyfriend, and they will be turned on by that.

We could do three hours on this.

Yeah, I know.

A million percent.

It's enormously different between genders.

I do think it's much more fluid when we say like, it's fluid, and it's a whole spectrum. I think sometimes people get anxious when they hear that, because they think it means it's fluid for you personally, and it's not. Like you land somewhere on this scale.

Right, like the person saying everyone's fluid, including you, and they're challenging your own position.

I think, if you were to compare bi men and bi women, I think it's harder to be a bi man than a bi woman, again, according to our society. Not that it should be. It shouldn't be.

We're not talking about what should be, we're talking about what is.

What is, yeah. And again, I think that there are a lot of guys, and I've shared difficulties with some of the men that I've dated around me being bisexual, but overall, the reaction is like, cool, you know? It's not only just that you're not transgressing femininity, but it's like a turn on, right? You're even more, you know, high in that ranking. And I think a lot of women feel uncomfortable with dating bi men, and don't necessarily say it or share it.

Yeah, that's true.

But it happens. They're progressive, and they're open, and they have a ton of gay friends, but dating a guy...

It's funny, I think there's something about it. Again, this is all wrong. This is just programmed in, that if you're dating a bi man, there's something that's like, well, they're gay.

Yeah. Yep.

And so they will be leaving me for a man. Like, that's the trajectory here. And when it's a bi woman, we're like, she's just fun. That's the cultural thing. Like, she's fun, and she's sexy.

Well, right.

So it's all about ending up with a man at the end of the day.

And both identities kind of being denied, right? Like, if you're a bi guy, you're actually gay. And if you're a bi woman, you're really straight. Yes. That I think is hard.

The bi men. I've known that I've asked this question to, I just asked it the other day. There's two doors. On one side is a naked woman, because this person said, well, I still have breasts. And I go, oh, yeah, yeah, that's great.

There are just a lot of rewards with being the normative, you know, even for me, again, like I was thinking about it with that door, I would choose the woman. You would? I would. Purely physically, more into women. But I almost only date guys.

The physical, so much.

This is very interesting because I've watched just enough TV with you to have observed something completely different.

What?

Which is you tend to be really, really attracted to generically masculine people, you know, on the spectrum.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You tend to like the dude with the beard that's big. So it's curious to me that you would pick, that's just interesting.

Yeah, it makes no sense. And I've talked about on the show, it's weird. Well, it's not weird. Well, it's not weird, exactly.

To me, it makes sense because that is the prototype of what a, quote, man is and what comes with it, protection, power. Again, what we've talked about is like, you give a lot of power away to that group. And so that makes sense to me that you look up to that type of person, very masculine man.

And I'm traditionally very feminine too. When I think about the partner that I want, I like feeling feminine. Being with someone who's very masculine makes me feel more feminine.

You mean the counterbalance.

Yes, exactly.

Anyway, well, wow.

Wow, that was a fun one.

What a detour. What a detour. Yeah, yeah. Okay.

Sorry, or you're welcome.

One of the two, I'm not sure. Okay, I do want to ask this question because you could help, you could redeem yourself, perhaps.

God, Dad, stop.

I invited Liz over. You've ruined our sleepover.

Exactly.

Oh man, I don't like this role.

I'm going to sign that all.

Your mother ordered pizza.

What are you guys talking about? No, cool dad's here.

So, Liz, I hear you're bisexual.

Monica tells me you're bisexual.

Good for you. Good for you. I love this new generation.

Okay, how can I have a conversation with my mom around my fears of her drinking too much at my wedding? This is from Kayla. I love my mom so much. She's incredible, but she has a longstanding habit of getting absolutely hammered on wine a few times a year. It can be draining and embarrassing.

Well, I have a very immediate thought. I think the key here is to not ever position it about the mom. It's not about the mom. It's about her. So when I approach her, I say, mom, I'm so nervous about everyone meeting.

I think that's great. Because in her letter, she says, I'm not interested in giving her an ultimatum, but boundaries is not, I have this from you and your therapist. Boundaries is not. you can't do this. It's I won't tolerate this.

She's the same therapist as me. She, no, I wish. Okay. I was like, wow.

Life goal that I won't be. well if this happens, and I can't allow this to happen because of me. Right. So, like everything that you said, I think was, was these, I, you know, it's never about. you can't do this or you have to be that certain way.

You are doing something wrong. It's just going to make her cry and go on the defensive. Exactly. You don't want to deal with this.

And it's my fear. Yes. And it's tempting to position it as objectively you've done this. So anyone would have this concern. There's no vulnerability in that.

But what would you, okay, like? pivoting a little bit, because I think that's exactly right. But if you felt that someone you love is drinking too much, basically, you sense it's a problem. What do you do? Like, what would you do?

Well, this isn't hypothetical. This happened. One of the situations was at my birthday party, and that person became so inebriated that it kind of just ruined the whole vibe of my birthday dinner.

And again, you can say, I find it really hard to be around you when you're drinking. So if you're going to come to my birthday or, you know, if we're going to go to dinner together, I can't be around you when you're drinking.

Yeah. I have no opinion about your drinking for you. For me, I get uncomfortable and I don't enjoy it. And I don't want to not be happy at my birthday. And so I think the tricky thing for her is going to be if the mother is seemingly cooperative and commits to maybe like, I think like an easy thing would be like, if we could not drink till after dinner, at least then she's got a full stomach.

That I would say no.

You'd forget the second part?

Yes, because also that's sort of what the brother's saying to do in some ways. And she's saying, I don't want to do that and I don't want to give an ultimatum. And even though you're buffering it with this other piece, that's the piece she'll hear and feel.

Yeah, she's going to be excluded.

Exactly, kicked out of her daughter's wedding.

I guess if you just set up that thing, like, it'd make me feel safest and most comfortable if we didn't start drinking till after dinner. And then you've already said that, you've made it very clear what your fear is. It's important that we don't set up a situation where all she's doing on her wedding day is monitoring mom. Because that's also not fair to her.

Well, that's also, though, on her. Like she's going to have to say, I set this boundary and I'm saying it. And then, kind of, whatever happens, happens. And also, remember that you're not your mom. And so if your mom acts in a way that you're embarrassed by, like, remember, you're not her in those moments.

And oh, that's a great thing to point out. Your own identity from hers. Your in-laws aren't going to say, well, Katie's a piece of shit, because look at her, mom.

And if they do, they suck. Like that's not on you either.

Yeah, it's like being okay. whether they're drinking, whether they're not, you know, which is hard.

Really hard.

But at the core.

Yeah, yeah.

I was just at a party where an adult, a professional, I think the dude was a doctor, got so hammered. Everyone there was avoiding this person. Like a landmine because they were repeating themselves. They introduced themselves to the exact same way. And then I walked to the bathroom at one point and I looked on the porch and there were three of the moms were out there with this man and he's crying.