How Does Patriarchy Affect Me?

on the intersections of social injustice and psychological struggle.

Prior to her work as a psychoanalyst, Naomi worked as a lawyer in the human rights field.

I actually discovered your work, Naomi, by a recommendation from none other than the

great Jane Fonda.

Oh, my goodness.

I was already excited.

I was like, how on earth did Alex Cooper hear about this book?

And then to hear that it came to you through Jane Fonda, that blows my mind.

She's incredible.

And I know obviously that you and psychologist Carol Gilligan co-authored this book that

we're going to talk about a lot today called Why Does Patriarchy Persist?

And it was originally published five years ago.

And in your opinion, I have to ask, is patriarchy still persisting?

You know, I think before I can even answer the question, the first thing is to really

even answer sort of what is patriarchy, right, to even know like if it's still with us today.

And the reason I do that is because in my experience, a lot of people see patriarchy

as a shorthand for men versus women.

And I think the real like, there are many problems with that reductive kind of view

of it.

But one of the main ones to me is that it sort of completely obscures the cost that

patriarchy has for both men and women.

So like in terms of thinking about whether patriarchy persists today, I'm really thinking

about whether patriarchy persists in terms of like the rules of the game.

So not just sort of who are the winners and the losers, but the rules about who can succeed,

what success looks like, and how one succeeds.

So we define patriarchy in the book as this sort of order of living that puts some men

above other men, all men above women, but that it's sort of based on this gender hierarchy

and binary.

So that like, the rules of the game, essentially, are that in order to be a man and to succeed,

you have to disavow all the parts of yourself that the patriarchy deems to be feminine,

meaning your emotionality, your relationality.

You have to be this kind of stoic, independent, heroic kind of figure, and that the vision

of success for you is to be able to take care of others financially and rely on no one else.

So the rules of the game for women, as they've always been and still are today, is that to

be a good woman, you have to be selfless.

You have to put other people's needs before your own.

And guilt-inducing, to put your own needs first.

However, to be a successful leader, to make it to the top, that kind of selflessness becomes

a liability.

So women are kind of faced with this really fucked up situation where it's like, oh, to

be a good leader, I have to be autonomous, I have to be unemotional, I have to be all

of these things.

But to be those things, I'm then going to be seen as bitchy or as moany.

So it's like, to go back to your question, five years on, does patriarchy persist?

And it's such a great question.

Our biggest fear was that people would say, what the hell are you talking about?

Patriarchy, I wouldn't persist anymore.

You can vote.

You've got like, what am I talking about?

I've been a lawyer.

I've been to university.

Who am I kidding?

And what I would say to that question of, is it still persisting?

I'd say it's persisting as it always has, but it's now out in the open and it is violent.

And it is like the gloves have come off.

And of course, we can't talk about patriarchy persisting right now without talking about

the jobs decision and the kind of pulling back of women's reproductive rights.

I mean, to me, that's sort of some of the standout.

No, I appreciate you walking me through that because I know that obviously all of these,

all of the questions I'm going to ask today are so complex and layered and there's years

and years and hundreds of years of history that go underneath, obviously, what we're

talking about.

And I think that's such a great point you made of like, of course we're allowed to vote,

but shouldn't we have been able to in the first place?

Like shouldn't we be considered equal?

So I think it's like, yes, we've had progress, but that doesn't mean that we've accomplished

all of it.

And so I think that when we have this conversation, the sad truth is that some people may be listening

to this and the minute they heard the word patriarchy, they're like, oh, I'm out.

I don't want to listen to this.

Like this is just too much for me or, you know, I don't want to hear about this.

Could you maybe in like two sentences, and I know this is so fucking hard because it's

like, how do we put it into sentences?

How would you explain the patriarchy to someone who is typically confused by the concept and

a two line, three line statement about like what it is?

One way I have of answering it, say I'm speaking to a woman, I'd say, you know, that

voice in your head when someone's really pissed you off and you're really hurt, you're

really angry and that voice in your head that says, who are you to say that to someone?

Like what right do you have to tell them that you're upset?

What gives you the right to hurt someone in that way by like telling them they've done

something wrong?

To me, that's the way that patriarchy is so alive for so many of us.

We don't even see it out in the world.

It sort of exists in our head in that way.

I think, sadly, if every woman listening to this podcast can pause, it's that self-doubt

that is so ingrained in us.

You may not even see it as self-doubt.

It's just a part almost of who we are in our decision making at times because it's been

so ingrained in us of like, don't cause controversy, don't upset people, be the peacemaker.

And obviously it's hard to identify.

That's why this conversation is so like heady for people because it's like, what the fuck

is the patriarchy?

And it's difficult, but it's an internal thing that we've been raised to have in us.

So it didn't just one day appear.

It's literally been since the minute that we were born.

Yeah.

You know, like here's another way that I think it's sort of those invisible things that we

take for granted that just like, that we see as just the way things are, but actually that's

patriarchy.

So for example, I'm a new mom, which has taken me into an encounter with patriarchy in a

very sort of alive way.

And so for example, I was having a conversation with some new mom friends and we're talking

about the way that when our husbands take the babies out, they are met with such applause.

Oh my God, what a, what a great father, wow.

And then like, instead, what we're grappling with is the sort of like side eyes when we're

out in a restaurant with our baby there, they're like, oh, that mom, like, I don't know, having

a baby.

They're these sort of like invisible, like no one's saying anymore, women should stay

at home and take care of the kids.

Like that's not what's going on.

And there'd be sort of like subtle kind of judgments we face.

to the masculine and the feminine capacities.

And I know you wrote a lot about this in the book, which is like masculine.

It's like independent, rational, emotional stoicism.

And then feminine, it's like dependence and like emotional sensitivity and caregiving.

And so there's a lot of negatives and weakness that are aligned with femininity as opposed

to the masculine.

And so therefore it elevates men over all women at all times.

So caregiving is something that we say, oh, isn't it, she's so selfless.

What a wonderful thing.

But what do we pay caregivers, right?

That is like one of the things, it's like, yeah, we think it's great, but it's not valued

in the way that men's work, quote unquote, is valued in society.

That's a great way to say it.

I know we lightly mentioned, you know, someone that you asked like, well, why would someone

want to turn this off?

And I think that obviously there are some women that may be listening to this who don't

believe in the patriarchy, or at least they don't believe that it affects them, right?

They say that they have a great relationship with their boyfriend and they haven't had

any issues within their job and they just don't understand what everyone is complaining

about and why everyone is constantly pushing the feminist movement and all that.

What would you say to that person that feels like they haven't been affected?

Yeah.

secret, right?

And I, you know, I really mean that because for some women, you know, that may be more

or less true that in their lives, they really have managed to cultivate relationships, a

work life in which they really feel like these kind of archaic norms, like don't affect

them.

And so I want to take that person at their word and not presume that I have a better

sense of their reality than they do, right?

What I've discovered is when you do ask questions, typically sort of what happens is you hear

that the story is actually much more complicated and things that that person has just chalked

up to, well, that's just life or, you know, this is a problem of mine, actually it's sort

of putting a sociocultural lens to something that they've seen as an individual failing.

So for example, like a woman who says, you know, I don't have any issues with the patriarchy.

I've like, I used to be a lawyer, I have a lot of lawyer friends.

I've like made it up through the ranks.

And you know, an issue that now I'm struggling with is my bosses are telling me if I want

to make it to that next step, I just have to be more self-assertive.

And they say, you know, that's a problem that I've always struggled with.

And then it's like them talking about it, we say actually, no, there are all these external

factors that have meant that to be self-assertive has come at a great cost to them.

And that it's not just an individual problem of them, but they're up against something

very real.

patriarchy and we can comment about, you know, how many times has a woman sat getting ready

to get dressed and is like, well, I'll be taken more seriously if I wear this outfit

for the interview than if I wear this skirt that I really like that I got the other day.

And it's like, well, why are we feeling that we can't wear a nice skirt?

Because we're going to be objectified by the men and we're still going to be put in a place

where we're not being taken seriously.

And so it's like there's moments of, and I know that's like the classic one of like the

looks and what we wear, but that's just to like bring it down so people can understand

like, yes, there are tangibles where you can see it, but I think what we're getting at

and what you get at so brilliantly in the book is like patriarchy exists internally

and it shapes how we think and feel and how we perceive and how we judge others and how

we judge ourselves and our desires and every relationship that we interact with in the

world, it's intertwined in all of those decision makings.

And so to start to unravel it, I understand why there are some women that are like, this

doesn't affect me.

It more just so means that they have found a way to live their life, that they're happy

with the dynamics.

And I'm not ever judging anyone with that.

I think, unfortunately, there are moments in dynamics where the patriarchy is exacerbated

and so many women are like, how am I not getting paid the same as men?

That does bother me.

And maybe it doesn't bother some women, but I do think for the collective, it's like,

we should have enough self-worth and self-esteem that we do fight for that equality for all

women because then it's like the generations to come, our daughters, their daughters, it's

never going to end.

And so it's kind of the same thing of when there's a friend that was mean to one friend

or a couple of friends and like, well, they weren't mean to me.

It's like, I understand that, but there's also an accountability for the greater good

that we need to take.

Oh my goodness.

I think you've got some response to it.

Like, how do you live in a messed up social situation, even one that you're not necessarily

one of the biggest victims of?

You might be one of the like winners in that system, but you still see it.

How do you live in a society that is so unfair and not be enraged every day?

You have to learn not to see it.

And I think that is what is so powerful about patriarchy.

Not to see the inequity.

I want to give a concrete example of this.

You're in a relationship with someone who every time you bring up a problem, they say,

what is wrong with you?

You just nag and nag and nag, and you can never let it be.

And, you know, we were just having a nice time and you brought this thing up and what's

your problem?

You have to learn to see things from their perspective and switch off your own frustrations

in order to not be enraged.

You saying that also just brought up a thought for me of like, I think there's also this

feeling that we are annoying by talking about this and we're complaining and we're not staying

in our lane, essentially.

And we're trying to be these like fighters for this good, just, and like some people

look at it like, just shut the fuck up.

Like everything's fine.

Like especially coming from like, oh, like you're a white privileged woman.

And I understand that.

However, as a white privileged woman using my platform is very important because if I

can feel it, I can only imagine what the minorities feel and the underprivileged women feel.

It's like it only is amplified times a hundred.

And so I get frustrated where I can feel women and even myself in moments straying away from

talking about it because it's the same thing when people started to just move away from

the feminist movement because it was like, oh, I feel like we're just like annoying and

people don't take us seriously and like people don't actually want to keep pushing for change.

And what then ends up happening is there is this divide between women of the women that

are like, let's just keep it as it is.

And then the women that are like, this is bullshit because you're right.

When you're in those fights with a man and they're telling you, you're just being really

overly sensitive.

Like maybe you should take a minute and then come back.

Or even in a meeting, the women are not as credible as the men and what the men are saying.

And you can't be as assertive and you can't be, and if we're too assertive, we're a bitch.

And then they're a boss if they do it.

Like there's so many things that are so ingrained in our society that in order for a woman to

try to elicit any type of response in her immediate area, most of the time she's met

with disgust and she's pushed away and she's overreactive and she, and so it's, it's really

hard to do it on your own.

And it's infuriating.

It's a lot.

And you have to, that is the key.

Like hold on to that rage, right?

Because the rage is what I think propels you to want to do something about it.

And you're right.

No, it is.

It's maddening.

It's really, really maddening.

about slash proving, why is the patriarchy still persisting today?

Like, cause for us, it was a conundrum.

You have all of this research coming out that says basically healthy, secure relationships

are the key to like psychological and physical health.

So why is it that patriarchy persists?

And it doesn't just persist out there as something that we knock off against, but it persists

in our most intimate relationships, right?

Like what the hell is that about?

And basically what we discovered was that in part, patriarchy persists because it serves

a psychological function.

To be a patriarchal man, meaning a man that sort of disavows, disconnects from his vulnerability,

his need for relationships, his emotional life.

That give him incredible access to material gain.

It offers him a psychological armor in the world.

He no longer needs to risk the vulnerability that comes with being an emotional person.

Basically what we found was in a culture where the conditions for healthy relationship are

so impossible because the rules of the game, patriarchal norms that kind of shame those

relational capacities, then becoming the patriarchal man and disavowing your relationality, becoming

the patriarchal woman who's all about the needs of others, that in addition to all the

kind of social capital you gain, there's also this sort of like psychological armor that

you're now wearing.

And so it's kind of like that woman who then says, oh, patriarchy, it might affect you,

not me.

I'm totally content.

like we don't act outside of these gender norms out of fear of losing relationships,

not being loved, not being accepted because when we stay in the gender norms, we are able

to maintain this level of just equilibrium of like, everything's fine.

I'll just stay right here.

I won't act out.

But by subverting, it's like by doing that and not being interested in pushing forward

you then what you're saying, you're detaching from your actual internal needs.

And they're so suppressed and they're so below because above those are what has been instilled

of don't act out.

Don't be loud.

Don't be angry.

Don't do this.

So it's like we don't actually, we're not able to locate what do you actually want?

What actually would make you happy?

It's very complex and I know there's a lot of layers to it, but I love the word detached.

No, I just love that you're saying detached because I think that's what the, that is what

if anyone is wondering, if you're listening to this and you're getting so frustrated of

like it doesn't affect me, that probably means you're detached.

it's a compromise.

It's like, look, if this is as good as it gets and it's complaining about it, if being

frustrated about it just means that I don't even get what's good about it, then not only

am I going to stop complaining about it, I'm going to stop even knowing that there's anything

to complain about.

But with the ROC, and I think this is like the really key thing, yes, it has a psychological

benefit, but the point is reality still exists.

You're still getting burned and that's the problem with these defense mechanisms.

You're still getting burned.

You just don't even know about it.

It's like, yes, there's something protective about not being in touch with your vulnerability.

There's something protective about not being in touch with all the pain and the frustration

that comes with unfair treatment.

But at the same time, if you're not in touch with any of those things, then you lose all

ability to do anything about them, to change them.

What we see is all kids are suffering right now.

And rather than making that sort of something about social media or something about what's

so messed up with this generation, I'd really want to ask what's going on with our society

that we have a whole generation of kids across the gender spectrum that are suffering?

And what's going on that the rates of girls suffering in this way are so much more than

boys?

Like everyone's suffering.

But what is that?

If you don't believe patriarchy exists, is it just hormones?

Are you going to tell me it's like that?

I love that you just said that because you're so right.

It's like you can't dispel the fact that there are so many young women and young girls that

are struggling.

I mean, all the way down to just like the way we look and how objectified we are.

It's like it's there's such a fixation on your worth is entangled into the way that

you look as a woman.

And again, like not trying to be like graphic here, but like if you think about like when

a woman has like, oh, like I don't have a six pack.

Like I have like, you know, a little pooch belly and like I'm eating good and like leave

me alone.

And if a man has the same exact thing, he's still considered, you know, he is successful

and he's got it going on.

And the woman, she's completely devalued to like, oh, she's not fit.

She's not thin.

But it's like we see all these men with beer bellies and yet they're still considered attractive

But then a woman, it's like you're not even considered beautiful or worthy or no one's

attracted to you because you don't fit the exact standard that a man has put as to what

women need to look like.

And as women, we have not objectified men in the way that they have objectified us.

We have not had the power to objectify them essentially because our words are way less

impactful and powerful than what the man can do to us.

Yeah.

What is it about thinness?

Why is it that, you know, thinness for women, and it's funny, I think we saw a shift and

it's like coming back, right?

There's like a zempic, you know, the like, that thing, like, what is it about thinness?

And I was with a friend the other day and I was like, you know, I think part of it is

about that like disavowal of desire.

Women in the patriarchy of women gaining social capital is to disavow desire, desire with

food, whether it's the sex, it's whatever, is shameful.

So we become more powerful by becoming sexless, you know, objects of desire with no desire

of our own.

And so it's kind of like the anorexic, there is a huge, you know, the psychological benefit

of the absolute control that comes with that.

I desire nothing.

I'm all about the desire of someone else, but like, wow, the suffering that is the mutilation

to the self that is beneath that.

So it's like, I think in a way, thinness is the perfect encapsulation of this, right?

No one is going to deny that a thin white woman, especially in this culture, does not

get some huge social capital.

And yet to get that, there's like, there's both physical mutilation and like desire,

the very essence of what it is to be human, to like, to be sexual, to eat, to have desire.

said like, how can you can't deny the patriarchy exists?

And I don't know if this is specifically patriarchy, but if you think about it, it's like, why

historically for women, has there constantly been a trend in what body type is desirable?

And then we see people injecting, putting fake butts in and then getting ribs removed

because the hourglass is in and now the straight board, no hips isn't.

When has ever there been a body standard that has shifted every decade for men?

It's like, I would say that one of the things that you're talking about is this gender binary

and hierarchy again, men have mind body split, right?

And so the mind is gendered masculine.

And that is what's valued about them.

Women, it's all like, they're just bodies, just vessels, either objects of desire or

containers of life, right?

I mean, in a way it's like you're so like, yeah, that's such a good point.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter what the standard is.

It's the fact that throughout, like it changes constantly.

But the fact is, it's the thing that women have been judged by the whole, like the whole

time is right.

It's kind of beside the point is how you look.

but something you said about how men are able to have a body and mind split and women, it's

like a lot of our self-worth comes from how do we look our body and not just even from

our own self-worth.

It's how do we have like human capital in the world?

Like, how are we, when we walk into a room, if you look a certain way, you're going to

I just feel so bad because when you think about it, how so many men, of course, I'm

not negating the fact that there are so many men that have insecurities, but the amount

of men that wake up in the morning and don't think about their body in the way that women

do, if we were able as women to get to a place where body and mind were separate, yes, that

rate of suicide for young women would probably be changed.

The mental health issues that women are having would probably at least be lightly alleviated

because what we're saying is like, why have women been so pigeonholed into like, I remember

getting made fun of by boys of like, you have no butt.

You have no butt.

When I was in high school and back then it was like, there were celebrities that were

really getting rising to fame with like butt injections and everyone, all the guys were

like a girl with a butt is like the hottest thing.

Now it's like, oh my gosh, like skinny model.

It's like, why are we subject to change based off of what a man is allowing to be

what is sexually attractive?

And then we all just have to go get our injections or go get this.

And then if you don't, it's like, well, then you are just not attractive.

And it's really awful how much it affects us.

Men will never understand because they have never had a body norm that they've had to

conform to.

One is like, sure, like men have insecurities, they're human, right?

The difference is where those insecurities are rooted and how they're able to manage

them, right?

So from a man who's insecure about his body, he can compensate in all sorts of ways, right?

Whereas the difference for women is it's not just her inner insecurity.

It's the fact that that's being fed back in the world that she lives in.

It's that your thinness affects your ability to get a job as a woman.

It's not like, it's not just about like, oh, do I feel good in myself?

And so, and also like schlubby guys are able to have great relationships, right?

Or, you know, it's like it doesn't really impact their social capital and also their

like their attractiveness.

Whereas for women, it's like, it's huge.

And I think it's dehumanizing.

like what is your psychological understanding of why the patriarchy pits women against one

another?

pitting some women against other women?

It's sort of like, it's integral to the whole thing.

If women joined other women in supporting all women, then the patriarchy wouldn't stand

a chance.

There's more of us than them, right?

One of the ways that patriarchy does this is it splits women into the good women and

the bad women, right?

The women that are worthy of respect, protection, and some sort of like value.

It creates a culture of competition where we're all vying for a limited social capital.

It's not just that women are subject to violence.

It's that women that don't play the game aren't even worthy of attention.

this.

There are people that the internet and the world right now really deem as like, these

unrealistic body expectation and image that a lot of young women don't feel like they

can live up to.

Whether it was they got surgery on their butt or their hips or their face, whatever it is.

There's a specific group of women I think a lot of people are constantly saying like,

you are fucking up young women.

My question is, is it their fault though?

I was just scrolling on my phone earlier and saw this article that was about, because this

is the group, right?

The poster child for what you're saying.

And it was a criticism of Kylie Jenner, who I think it was like in season three was like,

I really regret the ways in which I've changed my body to conform to these beauty standards.

And I don't want my daughter to do the same thing.

And I think part of the problem is that when we don't see patriarchy, we just see it as

individual women.

And we say, it's the Kardashians fault.

They're the ones who have created this problem.

I think it's much more nuanced than that.

I think you have to acknowledge what were the conditions, what's the social situation

for Kylie Jenner to become a billionaire in this society, she had to mutilate her body

in certain ways.

I think that if you blame her as an individual, then you perpetuate the patriarchy in a certain

way by sort of making women the target of your anger rather than the system.

At the same time, I think that as women, we have to own our complicity in the system.

We can't just keep claiming we're victims of it.

So Kylie Jenner can't just say, oh, I regret this.

She also has to say, I benefited from this hugely.

I have to take responsibility for the fact that this was a cost to me, but it's one that

I made and I benefited from.

And I actually did a lot of harm by doing that to myself and to other women.

It's like, I think the problem with patriarchy is the problem with this almost like do a

dumb to victim perpetrator narrative where it's like women are either victims or they're

villains.

I want to say no, like Kylie Jenner, she's neither just a victim or a villain.

She's like the rest of us in this fucked up situation of patriarchy, trying to survive

it.

And she made a choice and that choice came with huge consequences, massive benefits to

her.

Also, huge costs that she's now grappling with.

And she doesn't want her daughter to make that same decision.

I think as women, it's not just situating ourselves as victims, but it's also owning

our choices in a way that's not about self-flagellating, about blaming ourselves and blaming other

women.

family.

And yet you're like, well, hold on.

I remember in an episode that Kylie was like, I remember my first kiss and this kid made

she has no lips.

And it's like the reason that these women, and they are not the only women, they are

0.00001% of women that in the world are doing it.