Will Hunter Biden damage his father’s bid for re-election?

2023-07-14 00:28:30

Every Friday, Guardian columnist and former Washington correspondent, Jonathan Freedland, invites experts to help analyse the latest in American politics. From politicians to journalists covering the White House and beyond, Jonathan and his guests give listeners behind the scenes access to how the American political machine works.

2Speaker 2
00:00.00 – 00:01.44

This is The Guardian.

1Speaker 1
00:11.82 – 00:15.18

2023 has been the year of indictments.

00:15.30 – 00:18.04

I did everything right and they indicted me.

00:18.18 – 00:21.56

But Donald Trump is not the only high profile figure

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connected to the American presidency

00:23.56 – 00:26.02

who faces federal charges.

3Speaker 3
00:26.40 – 00:28.76

Joe Biden's son has reached a plea deal now

00:30.00 – 00:30.62

investigation.

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Hunter Biden has reached a tentative deal

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on two tax offenses and one firearm charge.

1Speaker 1
00:36.50 – 00:39.04

As you'd imagine, Republicans at the right wing press

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were quick to react and cry foul.

3Speaker 3
00:41.74 – 00:44.98

This deal stinks and it embodies three things.

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It embodies cronyism, camouflage, and corruption.

1Speaker 1
00:49.70 – 00:51.92

When it comes to commentary on the left,

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the lack of discussion of the Hunter Biden case

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has been noticeable.

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So are America's liberals usually so quick

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to pour over the legal woes of the former president

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wrong to pay so much less attention

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to the current president's son?

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And how could Hunter Biden affect

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the re-election prospects of his father?

01:14.14 – 01:16.80

I'm Jonathan Friedland, columnist for The Guardian,

01:17.18 – 01:19.92

and this is Politics Weekly America.

2Speaker 2
01:23.48 – 01:27.18

Hunter Biden is a son of Joe Biden.

01:27.46 – 01:31.10

He survived a tragic accident

01:31.10 – 01:33.74

in which his mother and his sister

01:33.74 – 01:35.66

were killed when he was a small child.

01:36.50 – 01:38.50

He and his brother, Beau, survived,

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and now Beau has passed away.

1Speaker 1
01:41.90 – 01:44.66

Margaret Sullivan is a columnist for The Guardian US

01:44.66 – 01:47.26

and the host of the podcast, American Crisis.

01:47.80 – 01:49.90

And before all that was the public editor

01:50.48 – 01:51.88

of The New York Times,

01:51.96 – 01:54.38

writing and observing on the media.

2Speaker 2
01:54.46 – 01:57.22

He is also someone who has suffered

01:57.22 – 02:00.04

from drug addiction with financial problems

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and has been the focus of a great deal

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of political commentary on the right for many reasons.

1Speaker 1
02:09.34 – 02:10.70

Which we will discuss.

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I mean, we should remind ourselves

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there is a very sort of human drama

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at the center of this.

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This is a president who's been multiply bereaved,

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who has this son who I think,

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you know, for the reasons you've said,

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has obviously brought much pain

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and his pain has brought pain to the family.

02:29.66 – 02:31.22

There was this moment, we should hear it,

02:31.30 – 02:35.42

this voice message that emerged of Joe Biden

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leaving a message for his son, Hunter.

02:49.48 – 02:53.56

I mean, listening to that, Margaret, it is,

02:54.02 – 02:55.16

well, tell us what you think.

2Speaker 2
02:55.60 – 02:58.70

Well, it's, you know, Joe Biden is,

02:59.00 – 03:01.64

certainly has his flaws as a person

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and as a public official,

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but we do know that he loves his son

03:10.18 – 03:13.10

and that he seems to love him unconditionally.

03:13.66 – 03:17.28

President Biden has expressed many times

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that he knows that his son has had troubles

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and has struggled,

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but that he loves him deeply and stands by him.

1Speaker 1
03:26.88 – 03:29.12

I have great confidence in my son.

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I love him and he's on a straight and narrow

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and he has been for a couple of years now.

3Speaker 3
03:34.24 – 03:35.46

And I'm just so proud of him.

1Speaker 1
03:35.82 – 03:38.98

The first time some people encountered this name

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was during the impeachment,

03:43.66 – 03:45.52

of Donald Trump,

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which was about Donald Trump putting pressure on Ukraine.

03:49.52 – 03:54.54

And Republicans tried to divert attention away from Trump

03:54.54 – 03:55.38

and say, hold on a minute,

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there's something fishy here,

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which is when Joe Biden was vice president

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under Barack Obama,

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his son Hunter got a job with Burisma,

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a Ukrainian energy company

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for which he was paid $83,000 a month.

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What possible skill set was Hunter Biden

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offering Burisma that he would be paid that money?

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Surely he was only there

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because his last name was Biden

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and perhaps he promised even implicitly access

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to a man close to the center of power.

2Speaker 2
04:31.26 – 04:32.04

That's right.

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And I think that it is correct

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that Hunter Biden has used the family name.

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I mean, I don't think it's right.

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I think it's correct to say

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that he used the family name

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to get on a board like that and make money.

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And so the idea of his being something

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of an influence peddler,

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I think is a justifiable claim.

1Speaker 1
04:56.88 – 04:58.70

And then I suppose perhaps the second time

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people heard the name Hunter Biden

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was in the lead up to the 2020 election.

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And the phrase was part of,

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his name was part of a three word phrase

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you heard all the time,

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which was...

2Speaker 2
05:09.90 – 05:10.82

Hunter Biden's laptop.

1Speaker 1
05:11.10 – 05:12.64

Hunter Biden's laptop.

2Speaker 2
05:14.06 – 05:17.34

Well, just before the 2020 election,

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a very important election

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in which Joe Biden was running against Donald Trump,

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the New York Post,

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which is owned by Rupert Murdoch,

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published a story about a laptop,

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which had purportedly been dropped off

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at a Wilmington, Delaware computer repairs shop.

05:38.92 – 05:42.34

And through many twists and turns,

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it was revealed,

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if I guess it was said at least,

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that this laptop had belonged to Hunter Biden,

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that he had dropped it off for repair

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and never picked it up.

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And now we see that there's a lot of emails on it,

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many, many emails that seem to suggest

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some dastardly deeds.

06:06.42 – 06:07.26

In the emails,

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they're discussing a meeting

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with the then vice president, Joe Biden,

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who could, quote,

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use his influence in those business dealings.

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It was well-timed just before the election,

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and it did create something of a stir,

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and it's a stir that has never really gone away

06:26.72 – 06:28.20

because that, as you say,

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Hunter Biden's name pretty much now

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is Hunter Biden's laptop.

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Biden is his middle name.

1Speaker 1
06:34.64 – 06:37.12

I mean, we'll get into some of the specifics later,

06:37.16 – 06:38.24

but just in terms of how

06:38.24 – 06:40.46

the press covered that at the time,

06:40.68 – 06:41.44

would it be fair to say

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that the media was aware of it

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because it landed in the middle of that 2020 campaign,

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and there was some nervousness in some newsrooms

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that this looked so convenient

06:54.10 – 06:56.24

that maybe this was another,

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you know, disinformation operation

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by the Russians who,

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you know, one way or another,

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we knew they wanted to play a role

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in the 2016 campaign,

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and that therefore, in some ways,

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the media undercovered this discovery,

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insufficiently covered this discovery

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of the Hunter Biden laptop

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because they feared it was a kind of ploy,

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an operation by Moscow.

2Speaker 2
07:18.54 – 07:21.56

I think that's a pretty fair characterization.

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I was working at that time

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at the Washington Post.

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The Washington Post's top editor

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at that time was Marty Barron,

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someone who goes after things hard

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but is also cautious and rigorous

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in the way reporting,

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in urging reporting to get done

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in that particular way,

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and I think it was appropriate.

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Did it result in not paying enough attention

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to this thing?

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Perhaps, because there is a story there,

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but it, I think,

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would have been much worse

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to jump on something

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without being able to verify it

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and really do the deep reporting

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that it deserved.

08:01.38 – 08:01.48

Yeah.

1Speaker 1
08:01.88 – 08:04.20

So the Hunter Biden investigation,

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it's not quite a name

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in the way Hunter Biden's laptop is now,

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as you say,

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his actual name,

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but what was the Hunter Biden

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investigation?

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And just explain to us

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how it's played out

08:16.92 – 08:17.98

when it started

08:17.98 – 08:19.04

and who's been doing it.

2Speaker 2
08:19.70 – 08:23.82

Well, this is a federal investigation

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within the U.S. Justice Department,

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which has actually resulted,

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quite recently,

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in Hunter Biden's agreement

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to plead guilty

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to some charges having to do

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with his not filing taxes on time,

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and they are misdemeanors.

3Speaker 3
08:41.00 – 08:42.98

According to court documents filed today,

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Hunter Biden will acknowledge his failure

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to pay taxes on income

08:46.88 – 08:49.08

he received in 2017 and 2018

1Speaker 1
08:49.08 – 08:50.94

as part of the plea agreement.

2Speaker 2
08:51.04 – 08:52.64

There's also a gun charge,

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which has to do with his purchasing a gun

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without disclosing

08:57.68 – 08:59.46

that he had had a drug problem,

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but that is not apparently going to result

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in any kind of direct punishment.

3Speaker 3
09:05.72 – 09:07.14

This deal would likely end

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the federal investigation into Hunter Biden

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and spare him any possible prison time,

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they believe this is only the beginning.

2Speaker 2
09:16.92 – 09:20.54

It's far, far less than what figures

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on the Republican side

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of the right wing people

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thought would be valid.

1Speaker 1
09:26.64 – 09:28.64

And do any of these things,

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and we'll go through them in a second,

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but do any of them relate

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to what was on the laptop

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or is that a separate thing?

2Speaker 2
09:34.22 – 09:36.10

You know, I'm not absolutely sure.

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It's a confusing,

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it's a confusing question.

09:38.78 – 09:40.54

I think that there are emails

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on the laptop,

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which are said to be,

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you know, make him look

09:47.14 – 09:48.40

as if he was trading

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on his father's certainly image,

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if not direct help.

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But I would say,

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just as Hunter Biden benefited

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from his father being prominent

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vice president,

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he has also, I think,

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suffered from that

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because the way he's being persecuted

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if he weren't the son

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of a very prominent person.

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So it has cut both ways.

1Speaker 1
10:21.00 – 10:22.16

We should just say something

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about the investigator,

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because if you listen,

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as I actually did this week,

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to conservative talk shows

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and podcasts about this subject,

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they are not placated by the fact

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that the prosecutor

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or the investigator

10:35.38 – 10:36.18

who looked at this

10:36.18 – 10:37.12

for the Department of Justice

10:37.12 – 10:37.72

in Delaware

10:38.30 – 10:39.36

was actually appointed

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they even say this man,

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David Weiss,

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they still somehow cast doubt

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on his fairness in this case.

2Speaker 2
10:48.50 – 10:50.90

Yes, and I think that's unwarranted.

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He was appointed by Trump.

10:54.14 – 10:56.38

He was very well regarded

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on both sides of the aisle

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as being impartial

10:59.86 – 11:01.44

and non-political.

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There is a complication,

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which is that there's

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a whistleblower involved,

11:06.90 – 11:08.96

a former IRS official.

11:09.16 – 11:10.26

The whistleblower is accusing

11:10.54 – 11:12.52

of providing preferential treatment,

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which the department denies.

11:14.14 – 11:16.12

Who has said that he thinks Weiss

11:16.12 – 11:17.92

didn't have the power

11:17.92 – 11:19.72

that he should have had.

1Speaker 1
11:19.74 – 11:21.04

And Shapley told lawmakers

11:21.04 – 11:22.82

that U.S. Attorney Weiss

11:22.82 – 11:24.20

was blocked from bringing

11:24.20 – 11:25.36

stronger charges.

11:25.78 – 11:27.18

But U.S. Attorney General

11:27.18 – 11:28.90

Merrick Garland said last week

11:29.42 – 11:30.82

that Weiss was not.

2Speaker 2
11:31.16 – 11:32.04

I would say he was given

11:32.04 – 11:33.00

complete authority

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to make all decisions on his own.

1Speaker 1
11:35.22 – 11:37.74

IRS being the Internal Revenue Service,

11:37.84 – 11:39.72

the tax collecting authority,

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of course.

11:40.54 – 11:43.92

And then in this odd twist this week,

11:44.58 – 11:45.94

Gal Luft, the co-director

11:45.94 – 11:47.76

of a Maryland-based research group

11:47.76 – 11:48.86

who had claimed to have

11:48.86 – 11:50.68

damaging information on Hunter Biden,

11:51.08 – 11:52.80

has now himself been charged

11:52.80 – 11:54.04

with arms trafficking,

11:54.38 – 11:55.36

sanctions violations,

11:56.00 – 11:58.64

and acting as an unregistered agent for China.

11:58.80 – 11:59.76

We should say that Mr. Luft

11:59.76 – 12:01.42

has denied any wrongdoing,

12:01.92 – 12:02.92

claims he's being targeted

12:02.92 – 12:05.30

because of what he told prosecutors

12:05.30 – 12:05.94

about Hunter Biden.

12:06.28 – 12:07.06

I mean, I'm just thinking,

12:07.16 – 12:08.12

having listened, as I said,

12:08.18 – 12:09.50

to some of the sort of chatter

12:10.54 – 12:11.88

in the right-wing infosphere,

12:12.54 – 12:14.80

this is absolutely going to lead

12:14.80 – 12:17.06

to just feed the conspiracy theories,

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won't it?

12:17.48 – 12:17.70

Right.

2Speaker 2
12:17.96 – 12:19.32

Look, they're going after this guy.

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They're removing him

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because he actually would be

12:21.62 – 12:23.26

such a great witness for our side.

12:23.40 – 12:25.10

But I don't think that is the case.

1Speaker 1
12:25.54 – 12:26.52

And more generally,

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what are you hearing?

12:28.26 – 12:29.56

What are the sort of Fox News,

12:29.72 – 12:31.00

as it were, talking points

12:31.00 – 12:32.68

about Hunter Biden

12:32.68 – 12:33.80

and about this investigation?

12:34.36 – 12:35.54

I mean, you might have thought that,

12:35.68 – 12:36.50

you know, the combination

12:36.50 – 12:37.54

of him being charged,

12:37.68 – 12:38.38

entering a plea,

12:39.00 – 12:39.78

not going to jail,

12:40.54 – 12:41.66

that might wrap it up.

12:41.80 – 12:43.00

But in Fox News world,

12:43.18 – 12:45.20

what are they saying about Hunter Biden

12:45.20 – 12:46.60

and on this whole business?

2Speaker 2
12:47.16 – 12:49.18

You know, I think the right-wing

12:49.18 – 12:51.04

politicians and media

12:51.04 – 12:53.02

don't really have a lot

12:53.02 – 12:54.70

to talk about with Biden,

12:55.24 – 12:56.38

with President Biden,

12:56.54 – 12:58.40

other than the fact that he's old

12:58.40 – 13:00.86

and that he has a son

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who's been something of a ne'er-do-well.

13:03.06 – 13:04.82

So they will never let this go.

3Speaker 3
13:05.16 – 13:05.84

Every Democrat,

13:06.24 – 13:07.84

every corporate media outlet

13:07.84 – 13:09.68

is saying it's all wrapped up,

13:10.54 – 13:11.46

it's Hunter's fault,

13:11.58 – 13:12.82

he's the little scapegoat,

13:12.94 – 13:14.26

now be done with it.

13:14.36 – 13:15.92

This is disgraceful

13:15.92 – 13:17.78

and it is not the rule of law

13:17.78 – 13:18.24

in our country.

2Speaker 2
13:18.42 – 13:20.84

There's always a lot of chatter on Fox.

13:21.10 – 13:24.24

The latest wrinkle in this case,

13:24.72 – 13:26.40

even if there isn't much of one,

13:26.48 – 13:28.54

it's in the conversation all the time,

13:28.76 – 13:31.00

as is the idea that Joe Biden

13:31.00 – 13:33.22

is senile and is, you know,

13:33.34 – 13:34.44

barely functional.

13:34.64 – 13:35.98

And that is not the case either.

1Speaker 1
13:36.70 – 13:37.66

And they've got this line,

13:37.82 – 13:39.28

Biden crime family.

13:40.54 – 13:42.48

You know, what are they basing,

13:42.64 – 13:44.60

what's the sort of material

13:44.60 – 13:46.28

they use to make that claim?

2Speaker 2
13:46.60 – 13:48.70

I think that's a bunch of nonsense.

13:48.92 – 13:49.50

I really do.

13:49.62 – 13:52.14

I don't think there's anything there,

13:52.24 – 13:53.10

but it, you know,

13:53.20 – 13:54.42

it makes a good hashtag.

1Speaker 1
13:55.00 – 13:56.64

Yeah, I think they go on this idea

13:56.64 – 13:58.18

that somehow the job

13:58.18 – 14:00.76

for the Ukrainian natural gas company,

14:00.92 – 14:03.06

that must have been something corrupt.

3Speaker 3
14:03.24 – 14:04.54

Hunter Biden made a living

14:04.54 – 14:06.26

selling access to daddy,

14:06.68 – 14:09.14

access to really shady foreign characters,

14:11.38 – 14:13.98

or corrupt Ukrainian oligarchs.

14:14.02 – 14:15.04

He made millions.

1Speaker 1
14:15.60 – 14:16.32

The struggle is,

14:16.42 – 14:17.94

but they've never been able to find

14:17.94 – 14:19.90

any exchange or any decision

14:20.46 – 14:21.92

by Joe Biden that seems

14:21.92 – 14:22.64

to have been influenced

14:22.64 – 14:23.82

by the fact that his son

14:23.82 – 14:24.86

was receiving money

14:24.86 – 14:26.78

from this big company.

14:27.20 – 14:28.34

If anything, as I understand it,

14:28.34 – 14:28.98

as vice president,

14:28.98 – 14:30.42

he was actually quite tough

14:30.98 – 14:32.30

and gave a few decisions

14:32.30 – 14:33.78

that would have hurt those,

14:34.14 – 14:35.32

his son's employers.

14:35.50 – 14:36.34

So I think it doesn't work.

14:36.38 – 14:37.18

But I think that's where

14:37.74 – 14:39.86

the case seems to go.

2Speaker 2
14:40.54 – 14:41.60

There is a house

14:42.38 – 14:44.38

of representatives committee

14:44.38 – 14:46.60

or subcommittee on oversight,

14:46.88 – 14:47.96

which has been looking

14:47.96 – 14:49.34

into president Biden's

14:50.44 – 14:52.14

supposed financial corruption

14:52.14 – 14:53.66

for several months.

3Speaker 3
14:53.78 – 14:54.82

We're not trying to prove

1Speaker 1
14:54.82 – 14:57.74

Hunter Biden is a bad actor.

14:58.18 – 14:58.84

He is.

3Speaker 3
14:59.28 – 15:00.66

If anybody wants to disagree with that,

15:00.74 – 15:01.34

then there's nothing

15:01.34 – 15:02.18

we have to talk about.

15:02.60 – 15:04.40

Our investigation is about Joe Biden.

2Speaker 2
15:04.52 – 15:06.38

And it has not turned up anything.

15:06.78 – 15:08.84

So that is also an out,

15:10.54 – 15:12.24

of all of this, that, you know,

15:12.72 – 15:13.64

there's been an effort

15:13.64 – 15:15.14

at different levels

15:15.14 – 15:16.66

to try to find something

15:16.66 – 15:18.34

that maybe Biden

15:18.34 – 15:19.60

could be impeached for,

15:19.78 – 15:21.34

whether it's his policies

15:21.34 – 15:22.38

about immigration

15:22.38 – 15:23.74

at the southern border

15:23.74 – 15:25.74

near Mexico or something else.

15:25.86 – 15:27.12

But they don't seem

15:27.12 – 15:28.40

to get much of a purchase.

1Speaker 1
15:29.24 – 15:31.30

And we should take a step back here and say,

15:31.84 – 15:34.46

is this all about Republicans

15:34.46 – 15:36.02

seeing that there's multiple

15:36.02 – 15:37.42

criminal investigations

15:37.42 – 15:38.62

into Donald Trump

15:40.54 – 15:41.64

a kind of symmetry

15:42.30 – 15:43.92

and that Hunter Biden

15:43.92 – 15:45.94

is their sort of tool for that?

3Speaker 3
15:46.02 – 15:48.06

Merrick Garland, I believe,

15:48.18 – 15:49.44

is the most political

15:49.44 – 15:50.30

attorney general

15:50.30 – 15:51.46

our country's ever seen.

15:51.86 – 15:53.28

He entered DOJ

15:53.28 – 15:55.12

wanting to and intending

15:55.12 – 15:57.04

to indict Donald Trump.

15:57.68 – 15:58.98

He needed to indict

15:58.98 – 16:00.84

Hunter Biden as camouflage

16:00.84 – 16:03.44

to say, look how fair and even I am.

1Speaker 1
16:03.62 – 16:04.46

Just to be clear,

16:04.80 – 16:06.28

the indictments

16:06.28 – 16:07.28

that have been lodged

16:07.28 – 16:08.62

against Hunter Biden,

16:10.54 – 16:11.28

do they compare

16:11.28 – 16:12.24

with the charge sheet

16:12.24 – 16:13.06

against Donald Trump?

2Speaker 2
16:13.72 – 16:14.42

Well, first of all,

16:14.52 – 16:16.00

Hunter Biden is not

16:16.00 – 16:17.38

president of the United States

16:17.38 – 16:18.38

and never has been

16:18.38 – 16:19.92

and never has had a job

16:19.92 – 16:20.60

in the White House.

16:20.70 – 16:23.30

So let's let's set that straight.

16:23.92 – 16:25.88

But even if you compared them

16:26.46 – 16:28.92

in some sort of equal way,

16:29.44 – 16:32.12

they are they don't compare.

16:32.44 – 16:35.12

President Trump was impeached twice

16:35.66 – 16:36.44

and you can say

16:36.44 – 16:37.40

that that was political.

16:37.42 – 16:39.46

But there was there was meat there.

16:40.54 – 16:42.08

These different indictments,

16:42.26 – 16:43.34

these different charges

16:43.34 – 16:45.10

that are that are happening,

16:45.36 – 16:47.34

whether in whether in Washington,

16:47.54 – 16:48.76

D.C. or in Georgia,

16:48.76 – 16:50.66

where he insisted

16:50.66 – 16:52.50

that the secretary of state

16:52.50 – 16:53.86

find some votes

16:54.54 – 16:55.72

because he needed them

16:55.72 – 16:56.62

to take Georgia

16:56.62 – 16:58.20

in the 2020 election.

16:58.76 – 17:00.38

There are very serious

17:00.38 – 17:02.68

kinds of investigations,

17:02.98 – 17:05.08

indictments and criminal prosecutions

17:05.08 – 17:06.74

that involve Donald Trump.

17:06.84 – 17:07.86

And I don't think

17:07.86 – 17:09.78

that there is any symmetry

17:10.76 – 17:12.80

between him and Hunter Biden,

17:12.92 – 17:14.28

who, again, is not

17:14.28 – 17:16.00

and never has been the president.

1Speaker 1
17:18.16 – 17:19.40

I do wonder, though,

17:19.82 – 17:21.32

because we know that Donald Trump

17:21.32 – 17:23.98

doesn't scruple to go hard

17:23.98 – 17:25.78

in on even people's vulnerabilities.

17:26.32 – 17:27.06

I'm just imagining

17:27.06 – 17:28.22

if it is a matchup again,

17:28.32 – 17:30.00

a rematch of Biden and Trump

17:30.00 – 17:31.88

on the debate stage in 2024

17:31.88 – 17:35.30

and Donald Trump brings up Hunter Biden.

17:35.58 – 17:36.58

Just from what you've seen,

17:36.68 – 17:38.40

how does Joe Biden respond to that?

2Speaker 2
17:38.40 – 17:41.44

You know, he he may not

17:42.22 – 17:43.94

want to go there at all.

17:44.08 – 17:45.28

He may simply say

17:45.28 – 17:46.78

that this has nothing to do

17:46.78 – 17:49.30

with my campaign or my presidency.

17:49.98 – 17:52.26

And it's a family matter

17:52.26 – 17:53.38

and a personal matter.

17:53.56 – 17:55.08

Meanwhile, according to three people

17:55.08 – 17:56.08

familiar with the discussions

17:56.08 – 17:57.08

inside the White House,

17:57.52 – 17:59.52

President Biden has made it clear to aides

17:59.52 – 18:01.22

he doesn't want to hear any suggestions

18:01.22 – 18:02.98

about limiting his son's visibility.

18:03.16 – 18:04.40

In fact, we've actually noticed

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