#2091 - Diana Walsh Pasulka

That doesn't make any sense. that all these UFO abduction experiences would happen only when the sun is on the other side. That's so dumb. It makes no sense. It's literally.

it's such an ego centric, earth centric perspective that and not even earth centric, hemispherical, centric. Right. It depends on where the sun is in position to the earth. for that to be the only time that UFOs come. I was always like, this seems like horseshit.

There's something about it that seems like horseshit, but there's also something about it that seems real. When you listen, like Betty and Barney Hill, when they're they're talking, boy, that sounds like people talking about a real thing. Boy, that sounds like a real experience. It really does. And these people, like the Whitley Stribers, these people that talk about these experiences that happen at night.

We know for a fact that when you are sleeping, your brain is producing endogenous psychedelic chemicals. We have no idea why. We have no idea what the purpose of those things are. We have no idea what the quantity is. We used to think until recently they weren't even exactly sure, like where it was being produced.

But now, through Strassman's work and through the work of the Cottonwood Research Foundation, the people that do those DMT studies, they know that now your brain is producing this. And so is your brain, is it producing a chemical gateway into another dimension? And is that why these people are experiencing these abduction, you know, air quote, abduction experiences? These encounters, let's say, encounters. Is that why they're happening at night?

Is that where they're happening while they're lying in bed? Because that seems to make way more sense.

And please just tell people your background.

So I saw how technology was changing everything. Our schools were the first to adopt computers and that type of thing. So what I did was I was very interested in – I was working. Your parents, you tell them you want to study religion and they're like, why not be a doctor, right? So I was going to college, but I kept taking courses in religion and philosophy.

And when I got out, I got a job doing technology and things like that. And I made all right money. but I still read about religion and philosophy. So I figured if I could get scholarships to continue, that I would. And I kept getting scholarships, and that's how I got my PhD in religion.

In religious studies, by the way, we actually – we're not ministers or anything like that. We don't advocate for any religious tradition. We study them. And since most people in the world are religious in some way, it's a good thing to know. But how did I get into studying UFOs?

So I studied Christian history, and that's what I did for a long time, until I was what's called a full professor. You can't go any higher. You're a full professor. That's it. And I studied these things called ascent narratives.

So ascent narratives are when people levitate. in the Christian tradition. People either levitate or they have – they see things that they call angels or demons and things like this. And I always studied them from a historical perspective. And I found that going through looking at these ascent narratives, through the historical record at the Vatican, actually, I kept coming across aerial phenomena in the historical record from 1,000 years ago, from 500 years ago, from very recently.

And I recognized that this was happening in UFO literature. And so I started to look at abductions and UFO sightings and things like that. And I wanted to do a cross-cultural analysis of this. And that was in 2012.. And that's how I got into this.

I just want to point out that not all abductions happen in your sleep. A lot of abductions actually happen in daylight. But I do agree with you that something is happening in your brain and you're perceiving something and you called it. Is there some type of mental gateway? And I think there's absolutely a mental gateway.

Does this discount that this is objective of us? The question is, is this something subjective or is this something objective of us? My opinion at this point is it's something that is objective of us. There's something that we're accessing. And I don't think it's within our space-time reality, to tell you the truth.

And it was a visceral feeling. It wasn't something that – it was something that made me depressed as a child. And it was real. I believed it was going to happen. And I believed it was going to happen at any time.

Well, this – after studying religion and studying –, by the way, this kind of prompted me into studying religion. And recognizing that, you know, if you look at, say, Christianity or even other religions, people had ideas that the world was going to end. And extinction events have happened and things like that. So it could very well be that information like this is coming to us, but it's out of our space-time. So to us, it seems like it's going to happen now, because our sense is of linear time, right?

So, if we get a feeling, and it's not from any of the input that we're getting, like our, you know, people telling us this is actually going to happen, the news telling us this is actually going to happen. But it's coming to us as this feeling that you and I were just talking about. It could be coming from that space that we've just identified, as, you know, people are talking about. And, yeah, I think that we're at the very beginning of doing a taxonomy. or, you know, looking at this space in terms of the scientists that you just referenced and people that – I think that actually people have – you know, indigenous cultures talk about this space.

They have language about this space. I talked about this in Encounters that, you know, religious traditions do talk about these spaces, but in secular culture, we've lost that language.

Like, can you show me these things? Are there photos of them? No, we're just drawing it. We're writing it down on paper. We're pretty sure we have these equations and we know what it is.

Like, what?

But because this is like a field of science, this is a field of study that's universally accepted, we have – we've given them a pass to talk about crazy stuff. But if you want to talk about crazy things in terms of encountering some sort of thing, some entity, some consciousness that exists in an alternative realm, that has access to this realm occasionally. Or perhaps that you can transcend your normal state of consciousness and access this other realm occasionally through some methods, whether it's through meditation, through psychedelic trips, through something, near-death experiences. Something happens that perturbs the normal state of reality and you have brief access to this transcendent experience that everyone has talked about. All of the great prophets, all of the great saints and religious figures have talked about from the beginning of written history.

And so, this is what prompted me to go back into our historical record and look at the writings of Plato again. and some of these people that you're talking about, like the great minds, right? And I recognize that, say, Plato, who writes about his mentor, Socrates, who's, by the way, killed by his country. He was killed by Athens, the town he lives in, not the town, but the state he lives in. And he's executed for being an atheist, by the way.

And if you look at what he's talking about, he's actually talking about this space. He's actually talking about having a vision of something that we can't see. And he calls it the good. And he says it's the best thing. Okay.

And he says it makes you do things that are just. And you don't do them because they're the right thing to do. You do them because you really want to do them. And so, to me, I thought this was fascinating. So, I went back and I recognized that he was what's called a math realist.

So, he believed that. And he was one of the first people. Well, not just him, but people were talking about the 300s, before the common era. So, many, many, many years ago. He's already identifying these things called platonic solids that now we can prove exist.

But we weren't able to prove them. So, he was using – and he even has this language too, Joe. He has this language. He says that we can actually perceive these through our minds. But it's not normal intellect.

It's not your normal abstract thinking. But it's a type of thinking. And he relates it to protocols, like physical protocols. Like, did you know he was a wrestler?

They were all – it was basically this, like, philosophy – almost like a fight club, I think. These guys, you know, they were like – they were wrestlers. And, you know, they believed that this was good. They believed that these protocols helped them use their brains to access this – the good.

And he works for the Space Force, and he's been working for the Space Force since the whole space shuttle program, okay? And he's a special kind of person. He's a mission controller, but he does a lot of other things too. But he's also a multimillionaire space rocket scientist. I mean just so strange.

And I called him Tyler after the character in Fight Club, because that's who reminded me of. He reminded me of that character in Fight Club because he had this – first of all, he has more than 44 patents, and they're all related to space.

And the Space Force has a special place for him. Like he's special, right? What I found was that he was practicing these types of protocols. I called them protocols because they reminded me of Plato and monastic traditions, the traditions of monks and things. So he would make sure that he got sunshine.

He would make sure that he got plenty of sleep. He would not have too much caffeine. He exercised a lot. He boxed, right? So he was also a fighter.

And he tried to stay away from people. I know it sounds weird, but that's what monks do. They try to stay – they try to like monitor their input of people, because those people can actually take them off their game or something like that. But so this guy was put into another mental state. And during this mental state, he said that he could receive calculations.

He could receive information. He could receive things. And then he could gather a group of scientists. And he wouldn't tell them where he came from, because he honestly thought they were coming from these things outside of space time, kind of like ETs or something, off-planet intelligences.

And this allowed them – you see this in sports. So people – I was just using this example in a class yesterday. I saw this basketball game two or three years ago with Steph Curry. And the way they were playing, it was almost as if there was an emergent phenomenon that was bigger than each of the people, because they somehow anticipated what the other guy was going to do. And I used to do sports.

And I know that this is something that can be done. There's a flow state. And I think that this is what Plato was trying to get his group into through these protocols.

And you're sort of like you're in tune with what you're saying, but you're almost outside of yourself.

But you hope that it happens.

I'm like, wow. I know there's a way to facilitate lucid dreams. I know there's a study behind it. But I've never, for whatever reason, it seems so stupid that I've never done it. But I've never even had the desire to do it.

I just want it to come to me when it comes to me. Which is dumb.

But for whatever reason, I have zero desire to do it. I don't know why.

How are you managing this weird thing? that for most of us, you wake up and you go, God, what the hell was that? Why was Godzilla in my dream? Right. Why was I on a skateboard?

They basically teach you how to do. And you have to have a teacher, by the way. Because they say it can be dangerous. Dangerous. Yeah.

So I think that's probably why you think you're not doing it. Because I don't think you're lazy, frankly. I know the kinds of things you do. I know that's not part.

I'm both of those things. I do all the things that I'm supposed to do, but God, it's a sludge. It's a struggle. It's like, ugh. But I always do them.

I'm crazy.

And it went on for about a week. And my parents were like, what are you doing? And I was just obsessed with getting it correct. It had to be absolutely correct. And I did get it corrected.

It was pretty amazing.

And I don't regret it.

That was just out of this realm. Inaccessible to the average person that plays guitar. Inaccessible to the average artist. He hit some crazy vibration. And I've always got that feeling when I listen to his stuff.

It's always, like, moved me in a very weird way, where I'm just completely captivated. Like, immersed in the sounds. Immersed in his music.

And he knew he did. He called it his electric church.

But that's part of the reason why I was interested in studying religion and things like that. Because of, of that experience.

You don't do it because after this, I'm going to make up a lot of money. Or, you know, after this it'll make my parents happy. Or after, you don't do it for those reasons. You do it for in and of itself.

They never make it. There's something about it. They just don't. They just don't. Maybe some of them will become pop stars.

Like someone, will plug them into the right songwriter and the right producer. And they'll figure it out. But it'll never be transcendent. It might be catchy. It might be okay.

But there's not, it's not Hendrix. No. No. Yeah. That kind of what we like to call genius.

Like what is that? But it's not, I mean, clearly it's him. He's a vessel. He's a receiver, an antenna, whatever he is. But he's getting something from a higher state.

Yes.

I wasn't even born when Hendrix was in his prime, or I was just a baby. When you listen to that now, it's hard to put it into context of how revolutionary that was.

And so they figured, well, this is the best way to just make everything— obviously, these people are doing acid and ruining our country. Let's make everything illegal and then lock everybody up. that does it, and then you get the 80s. And the 80s is like this confused child that was raised improperly, was then cast out into the world with a distorted sense of values that was expressing these values in some of the most clumsy and goofy art human beings have ever done.

Yeah. And then, once the effects seemed to be counter to how—who knows? Maybe there were just two factions of government. One that was pro, you know, let's see what happens, you know, let's do this experiment. And then the other was, you know, push back, and, you know, let's change the—you know, change the culture through taking, you know, making these illegal.

Mm-hmm. But what you see now is, you definitely see, you know, using these for therapeutic purposes.

Yeah, the MKUltra experiments, when you realize what the government was involved with and what they were doing, how they were running the Haight-Ashbury Free Clinic, and they were administering psychedelics to people in brothels without their knowledge and observing them, and what they did with Charles Manson. that's very well detailed. I don't know if you've read Tom O'Neill's book, Chaos.

And then the—when you see things like, especially coming out of the pandemic, when you see how incompetent these people that are supposed to be leaders are and how foolhardy they are and how stupid their decisions were, and then you just look at the undeniable transfer of wealth to the upper small area of the country that gained billions of dollars in wealth and how much it devastated small businesses and, like, did you guys do this on purpose? Like, do you know what you're doing? Are you idiots? Like, why are you telling us what to do? You guys are fools.

And especially when it comes to—like, does anybody believe that Joe Biden's ever had a transcendent experience? Does anybody believe that Joe Biden has ever, like, met God and came back with a message for mankind? No. It's like, everything is, like, bizarre, ego-driven, narrative-driven lies and propaganda and just nonsense that's supposed to make it look like they're doing the right thing always.

They know this is the wrong way. Yeah. And it motivates the zeitgeist to move into a different direction, which I think is happening.

Okay. I mean, yeah, I agree with you. And I'm at the same point. So, through my looking at the UFO phenomenon—and, you know, I knew all of this. I grew up in Northern California.

You know, there were the—I can't think of the name. It's right above where I live, the Bohemian Grove. So I kind of already had an idea of this kind of thing, you know, of the group, the cult, as you call it. Yeah. All right.

And it's easy to see. Well, for those who can see it, it's easy to see. Some people don't want to see it. Right. Okay.

So, once you see it, you're like, okay. But then to live it to—this is what I felt like happened to me. So, in 2012,, after I started the study of UFOs, I recognized that the management of that message of the UFO for the American public had been organized not just from the 1940s, but really from earlier, from the early 20th century. And once I started to recognize and even meet the people who were responsible for managing this in a very cohesive, tight way, very specific, that's when I recognized that it was—that, you know, I felt it. I guess that's the difference was that before I just saw it on the sideline, you know, like we talk about it now, you and I, and it looks like we're talking about it from the sideline.

We're saying, yeah, this is really bad, what they're doing and stuff. But I was part of it. I saw it. I saw it. I know those people.

They talked to me about it. They talked to me about why they were doing it. And they said, Diana, you don't want to help these people. They will kill you if you had something that they wanted. Like these are not good people, is what they were saying about—.

And believe me, I've already thought a lot about the problem of evil. I've spent my life reading about it and talking about it with people. And what can we do? I recognize we can't do anything except work on ourselves. And that's where I had to reread some of those texts, like the Plato text that I talked about.

He talks about your idea of evil that, you know, perhaps—or he calls it injustice. And he says that perhaps people are unjust just because, you know, there needs to be injustice for other people to, like, recognize it and then to do this thing. You know, how do we create a just society? That's his question. Right.

And I don't think he—so he doesn't actually answer that question with words, but he does it through giving stories. And one of the stories is the Allegory of the Cave, where, you know, the allegory, it's like the Matrix, right? It's like, you know, where people are in—they're being tied up, and there's puppeteers who are showing them these shadows on the wall and they take that for reality. But somehow some person gets out and they see, well, what he's talking about. is this mystical tradition that you and I have talked about early?

when we started talking. We talked about if we do those things that we love and we're carried away and we become—you said it was obsessed. You know, you're obsessed with it. And I call it doing it because it's pretty awesome, right? That's my word for it.

When you do that, justice happens. Like, you're not worried about, you know— So it's almost like an emergent phenomena from these communities that do it, and they're small communities. So there is structural injustice and there's structural evil. And it doesn't seem like we can fight—that's what I learned from doing the UFO. I learned that there were these things, UFOs.

But more intensely and more personally, I learned that the government was doing this, and that's what was upsetting to me most.

There's another—and this is what I've found, is that there's an oral tradition that is part of the communities that run this, run these programs, like the UFO programs, right?

And that information is carried within people. It's not written down. They even have a word for not writing it down. When they're going to have these meetings, they have this special term, and everybody puts down everything, you know.

But you can get a lot of information from oral traditions. And this is actually how a lot of classified information is kept, through oral traditions.

And then quickly having people come into my sphere, research sphere, who are, you know, part of CIA, part of FBI, that kind of thing. And then getting a shock that, you know, whoa, this could be dangerous and maybe I shouldn't be doing this. And thinking, you know, but—.

. Okay. By 2015 and 16, I was already in full shock mode of, wow, this is bigger than I thought. And I had been invited to go to a crash retrieval spot in New Mexico that was under a no-fly zone. And I still didn't believe that were UFOs.

at this point. You have to understand that. So, I just thought that this—I thought the person inviting me is Tyler. He's a scientist. He works for the Space Force.

He believes this, and I'm wondering, how does he even believe that this is real? We're going with Gary Nolan, who's from Stanford, and he's out. But at the time, I called him James in my book. And I'm the one actually who invited him to go, because I didn't really want to go by myself. And so, I insisted that Gary go with me, and Tyler figured out who Gary was, and he said, okay.

So, we went out there. We had to actually wear blindfolds, and it was out in the middle of this place in New Mexico. I don't know where. I know what was near it, but I don't know where the actual place was. And we were looking for parts, right, that had been put out there.

And during the time period—so, I think part of it was. the danger was that parts exist, right? So, things like this do exist, and there are anomalous materials. This is what I was finding out, and I think that this is what—I'm an okay researcher. It's not like I would make this up, nor would I lie.

You know, I'm publishing with Oxford. So, my reputation is at stake, right? So, I'm doing the best I can to kind of adjudicate, like, am I being fed disinformation? or, you know, what's going on? But Gary now will be able to identify, by taking these parts back and analyzing them through his laboratories, whether or not they're engineered or not.

And he's been doing that ever since. So, these are the kinds of things that I would have found out. I think part of it was also that I was finding out that there was an oral tradition and that the perception management was very tight. And I think this is what they were afraid. But I've said this now publicly, so—but I did get harassed, though.

I did get harassed, and it still happens.

And I'm actually not meeting with them because I'm waiting. I'm kind of thinking I've got to think this through. It wasn't until about 2014 that I actually started to meet the people, like the affiliated people.

And they show me some things and they ask me to go to this crash retrieval site in New Mexico.

So, they think that these were donated materials and they're going to get information, and they do. And that's how Tyler was able to create a lot of the things that he created through—and he would fly these on the space shuttle, by the way, these experiments and so forth. It was very, very fascinating to me. I mean, I think anybody would be fascinated with it, to tell you the truth.

So, there's a real field now that where people are doing these experiments in space and creating things that we can't create here.

He's like, how many times have I told you this? So, yeah. So, he has parts from various other crash sites that are clearly engineered.

Not by humans.

And another—.

So, when I went there, I even wasn't a believer. I was like, I think they're trying to give me misinfo, or, you know, something's going on. Right. Maybe they really believe this. Well, they both really believed this.

I know that for sure. So, we're there. And we had to wear blindfolds in order to go, me and Gary. So, Tyler's taking us. We drive to a certain place.

He says, put the blindfolds on. We had to leave our cell phones. We couldn't take any technology with us. And so, we go out. It takes about an hour to get out to the site.

We're blindfolded. We get out to the site. We get out. We're wearing different— I guess there's rival snakes out there. So, we have to wear certain boots, and, you know, things like that.

So, we get out. We take our blindfolds off. And the first thing I do is I look around because it looks really familiar to me, even though I've never been out there. And Tyler looked at me and he said, looks familiar, doesn't it? And I said, you know, yeah.

And he said, you've seen it in the X-Files. And I was like, what? He goes, they had an insider on their team. And I honestly thought, okay, this actually fits into my research that, you know, we learn everything we do about religion from media. Like you want to know what, you know, Moses looked like.

You just watch, you know, the Ten Commandments and things like that. Like. it's not true, of course, but that's how most people learn about their religions. And so, this made me understand this is what's going on. And it's like people are believing this through this.

And then I'm coming to this and I'm going to confirm that it indeed looks like this. You know, and it is a crash site. It's just too weird for me. But, you know, this is what I study, so I'm going to study. But that gets to your point.

Like how did we get this stuff? So, he actually did have metal detectors that were configured for specific types of metals that he had. He had these built.

So there's the sand of the desert. Right. And then there's this rubble everywhere. And I'm stepping on the rubble and I'm kind of looking at it.

And so I asked Tyler, what's this? And he said that after the government retrieved the crash and they didn't want anyone out here looking. So what they did was they dropped a bunch of tin cans out here in the 1950s and these have disintegrated down into this rubble. And so I put that in my book, because that's what he said. And when I put that in my book, the editor of my book said to me, you can't say this because it's ridiculous.

And I at the time, I was like. It is ridiculous, but this is what happened, and it's data. And even though we don't understand it now and it seems ridiculous, we need to keep it in there.

I kept a lot of stuff in there. that didn't make sense to me at the time. But when I look back on it with everything that's coming out now, I'm like, OK, I'm glad I did that.

It's the baby with the bathwater. The whole thing gets thrown out. Totally. And if you have a site where they've picked up these anomalous metals that defy our understanding of metallurgy and you're calling them metamaterials, no one knows where the hell it comes from. What's the best way to confuse people?

Well, just throw a bunch of regular metal everywhere.

And so he goes, well, let's just try to find some stuff and I'll analyze it and I'll tell you.

And we found parts, by the way. And some of the parts were so deep down into the ground, like there are rocks and things like that. And Gary, like, I'm afraid he's going to get bit by a rattlesnake, frankly. He's putting his hand down there and, you know, spending like hours at this one place trying to get something. He found some things there.

And I thought, if people are trying to fool us and put things down, they did a really good job because they would have had to come here like a year ago or something and put that down there. So I don't – honestly, that's my personal opinion, is I don't think that this was put out there for us. They found – they did find. We did find things. What's interesting to me is this, is that after we found these things and we did all this kind of data collection and everything at the site, you know, very much, like anthropologists do, by the way, you know, documenting what we found, when we found it, you know, what it looked like and things like that, putting into special containers.

Then I was like, I don't want this. I don't want any of this stuff. And they both looked at me and laughed. And so Tyler told us what was going to happen. when we went back to the airport.

He said, once we get back to the airport, Gary said he's going to take the stuff. Gary is going to get stopped. Oh, Tyler can go through airports, by the way. He doesn't get – he doesn't have to go through the normal thing that I have to go through, like the TSA and everything. He just goes through.

So he went through. I had to go through. Gary went through. And he did get stopped. And everything happened exactly as Tyler said it would.

They were going to look through everything. They were going to like take everything apart. Then, you know, all that was was a signal to someone in D.C. that somebody had these parts, and this is who. That's what he said.

And I don't know if the signal went to D.

C.

, but everything else happened. And Gary and I were both sweating, right? We were like, oh.

To the New York Times story.

And so much – And when I looked back at the space force, our space force, and also the history of that, I could see, okay, there are so many things that just don't add up here, that this is probably – And I met too many people that had been long timers in the program, like seriously long timers, like their whole lives, live and die by this. Live and die by it. When they die, they die with that information. Whoa. And it's traumatizing to them and their family too.

When they describe the experience like many, many years later, so there's a weight to the information that they're carrying. It's almost like they want to tell the world, but the world is not going to even believe them. And how could they, unless they experienced it? And even though they experienced it, they're still baffled by it.

So that's what I'm saying is like there's a whole other level to our history. And I already knew this anyway, being a historian of religion. But when it – I guess I was a patriot, right? And I still am. So when I learned about this, I was – I really wanted to share the story, because I felt like these people, even if they remained invisible, they should get their due.

Like, because these people keep us safe in ways that we just don't know. And they're dedicating their lives and they're getting no recognition for it. Okay? No recognition. And so that really prompted me, more than anything, to write about it.

So I was working with Tyler and I was scheduled to go to the Vatican.

And it was at the Vatican where we encountered – where a lot of things happened for Tyler that I saw made him understand that this was something that had been going on historically for a very long time period. See, we didn't just go to the Vatican. We also went to the – well, we went to the Vatican Archive, which is hard to get into, but I could get into it. And we also went to the Space Observatory Archive, which most people don't even know that the Vatican has a space observatory. And how that all happened was not set up, Jo.

It was not. It was so organic because it happened before I even met Tyler. And I put off going there because I have – I had at the time very young kids and I didn't want to leave them and go to another country for three weeks or whatnot. But I had been invited by Brother Guy Consolmagno to go to the Space Observatory because I had been studying about the space research. And I said, does the Vatican have like a lot of space documents, documents about space?

And he said, every single thing that the Vatican does and we do, he said, comes to where I live, which is at the Space Observatory. And we have a scholars residence and you're welcome to stay for as long as you want. You have full access to the Space Observatory Archive.

Many people may think, oh, how boring, right? But original Keplers and Copernicuses and every single thing that people, scientists from 1200, 1300 on up, thought about space and about magnetism and propulsion and things like that, it's all there, every one of them. And so you go in there and we had full access to it, Tyler and I. Why does the Vatican have that? Well, the Vatican would have it.

So, because, you know, who was doing this 500 years ago? There was no United States. Right. So, of course, they're going to have it. They also have an amazing meteorite collection.

They have a lot of really cool things there. And they're, again, they're these monks. They're astrophysicist monks. And they're just hanging out there. They've got the best lattes, by the way.

Italians. Yeah.

It was like all this booty. You know, the Vatican is filled with it. That was my experience as well. So when I went, you know, we did all the – we did the scholarship, of course, but we also did the touristy thing. So, you know, we went and looked at all the museums and everything like that.

And everything I saw seemed to me to be like, you know, colonization, you know, the colonization of these people and taking their stuff. And the colonization of these people and taking their stuff. And they have it all there. And when you're inside the Vatican, by the way, it's different than when you're outside of it, because, you know, when you're outside of it, there are those guys that – the Swiss guards. Well, those guys are militia when you go inside.

And they're everywhere.

I didn't. But I did want to.

And my children were pretty young at the time. And when we went, we were outside in this courtyard area where the pine cone is. And he said, do you know the significance of the pine cone? And I said, does it represent the pineal gland? And he said, yes.

And so he got so excited.

And it represents the pineal gland because it's similar in appearance to a pine cone. And so this pine cone, which also, I'm sure, probably represents the Fibonacci sequence, which also represents itself in the pine cone, that's the seed of the soul. That's where DMT is made.

And that massive pine cone that is the sculpture at the Vatican, that's what that is.

That is – it's representative of the pineal gland. And this is what this professor was telling me. And, like, you see it there, in that ancient Mesopotamian art. It's probably Sumerian, with that god that has that – I mean that's the Anunnaki carried that thing. And the fact that they're holding it specifically, that they're telling you, like, this is what's up.

This is the connection. This is the connection to the gods.

It is more real than reality. And when you go there, you've been there before. The most bizarre feeling about it is this terrifying fear while it's happening and then incredible peace when you get in there and a recognition like, oh, I know this place. I've been here. I'm here all the time.

I know these things. I know these beings. These beings are – they're truth. They're something from somewhere else, somewhere that's probably around us all the time, that's influencing us all the time. I know a lot of people have had very negative experiences, like horrific experiences of demons, and negative encounters.

I've had none. I've had no negative experiences like that. My experiences are all in these very enlightened, bizarre creatures that contact you. And they seem to know, like, what's wrong with me, like right away. And they seem to, like, also work on you.

Like, there's this bizarre feeling like they're like, let me get in there and fix your fucking wires.

I'm sure some of them happen during the day. Most of them happen at night. The vast majority of them happen during when people are sleeping.

And that what you're seeing, even though it's mind-blowing, it's just a tiny little piece of what it actually is. So when I'm at the Vatican and I see this pine cone, I'm going, okay. So there's this recognition that this connection to God, this connection to this higher experience, this higher power, it's available inside of us. There's a gateway, and that's the gateway. That pine cone is the gateway.

And it's not gold or anything, but it looks gold. And it fell off and it kind of went away. And it would be – I thought, maybe I should just let it go. And then I looked at it and I was like, nah, that's really important for some reason. So I picked it up and put it back in the bag.

Oh, wow.

So this must be this type of thing, I'm thinking. Because Plato's Republic actually went and influenced Christians in early Christianity. So this idea seems to not be just specifically Christian, as you say. We saw some photos of Egyptians with idols.

I'm sure you're aware of Brian Murrow Rescue's work.

So when I was young, I learned about her and how she worked with psilocybin to heal people. And when she died, I think it was in the 1980s, the president of Mexico announced it. So she was actually – so in that culture, it was well known that – and she called the psilocybin, the mushrooms, little saints.

I forget what it was. Sacred Mushroom and the Christian – Sacred Mushroom and the Cross. And then there was another one he wrote that he published. after that other one was bought out that you can – that's readily available. But this guy studied the Dead Sea Scrolls.

This is the oldest version of the Bible that we know of.

So they take this parchment skin. They're laying it out. They do DNA tests on it to make sure it's all from the same – and then they try to piece together what it is. And not all of it is even available. Can you check me that up?

Behind you to the right. Thank you.

And his conclusion after all of this –, the summary of his conclusion was the entire Christian religion was all about psychedelic experiences and fertility rituals. And that this was what all these stories really meant. And he even connected the word for Christ to an ancient Sumerian word, which meant a mushroom covered in God's semen. And that these ancient people believed that when it rained, it was God having an orgasm on the earth. And that these mushrooms, which, if you've ever seen, mushrooms appear after the rain.

They come up out of nowhere. And that these mushrooms, these people, would eat them and they would experience God. And that they wrote these things down. First it was an oral tradition for who knows how long. And then they wrote them down.

And then it gets transcribed to Greek and Latin and English. And it's all –.

And that's one category is entheogens and different types of religions. So the early Christian church, I would say that not all – I don't agree that all of Christian tradition is this. I would say that there definitely is a lot of it. But there are also other types of Christian traditions. I mean, when I look at the Jesus movement in the first century, it to me looks like a philosophical school like Plato.

And Plato did the mysteries. But I don't know if – I think Jesus was part of an Essene movement. Like the John the Baptist is Jewish. He's out in the desert. And they're practicing these water rites.

And they basically are – they have their own community. And he looked like he was part of – he had been baptized into this community. So the Jews in the first century are just trying to survive because Rome is killing them and destroying – they're going to destroy their temple. So a lot of these communities – so that's one interpretation. And I'm not discounting that that's correct for those traditions.

But there are other traditions that are not – they're not filled with entheogens and things like that. I'm just letting – just being accurate. That's all I could do.

Some over here believe that. They have the same mass that they go to, but their belief structures are different.

That this is – that this phenomenon is connected to these ancient stories of religion. And it's not as simple as other beings like us from somewhere else.

So part of why I continued to study this was that I saw that the historical record included a lot of these events. And these events were weird back then, just like they're weird today. Right. And when you look at these events back in that time period, you also see a common pattern that happens today. And what is that pattern?

That pattern is that – let's take St. Francis of Assisi's stigmata. I don't know if you want to show – So if you look at his stigmata, where it looks like he's being basically radiated by a UFO. That's what my students say when they go, and they see this in the Louvre and such.

If you look at his primary sources for that, this happens in the 1200s. And you look at what – yeah, so that. So here you see St. Francis, but also over here on the right, you see his friend, Brother Leo. Brother Leo actually at the time is probably 15 or something like that.

15?

. Yeah, he's really young.

And so what I did was I went through a lot of the primary source materials for – Teresa of Avila has a weird experience that looks like an abduction. But they look beautiful. They're domesticated. They're made to look a lot more happy or something like that. And I think part of the reason for that – I don't think it's intentional.

I think because it's traumatic. I think because, once you recognize – the people themselves are traumatized by this, in both good and bad ways. So this experience is still happening.

To call it angels and demons is accurate, except for one part. And because there are bad things that happen. Sometimes people get hurt. Francis died from that wound, or he died from wounds that were bleeding until – so when he had this experience, until he died, which was about a year and a half later, they tried to keep it silent in his monastery because they were – they didn't know what happened to him. And they were horrified by it.

And so until he died, they didn't actually tell anybody. So he kept it between him, Brother Leo, and probably another monk. So there's this idea of shame. almost. This is like shameful.

But also this idea that – so bad things happen. And that's why people say, well, demonic or something like that. And people do experience these things in different ways. And they still do. They still do.

But what should we call it? Should we then use the terminology of people from 100 years ago and call it angels and demons? I don't think we should. I think that what we have to do is we have to take case by case, look at patterns, and maybe just try to proceed with different language, because some of the things are really interesting. If you do look at, say, experiences that Catholics have, say, in the 1960s that have been videotaped, okay, so Virgin Mary experiences, where the Virgin Mary appears.

And she reads people's minds and she does – she's doing these kinds of things, levitating people together.

If you put physics on that case, physicists on that case, and if you take the work of those people who are working – I think it's the University of Washington where they're doing MRI imaging of what people are thinking and they're able to replicate it. So if they're looking at a Van Gogh painting, they can replicate that. Well, this looks like a technology. So that's what I'm trying to say is that there's something going on that could possibly be different. And we need different language for it.

And I think we're at the very beginning. Just like doing this stuff with DMT, we're at the very beginning of learning about this other world.