Bonus: Payne Lindsey breaks down the case so far (Talking To Death)

Sun. If you're all caught up through episode 3, I'm sure you have plenty of questions.

And today I'm going to break down this case in much more detail, in a roundtable discussion

with some of the producers behind the show.

The segment you're about to hear is a clip from my weekly show called Talking to Death.

Every week after each new episode, I'll be giving you an in-depth recap and a behind-the-scenes

look into my investigation this season, exclusively on my weekly show called Talking to Death,

which is out now on your podcast app and completely free.

But I figured I'd give you a real example of what I mean, right here on the Up and Vanished

feed.

If you're enjoying this season and you want to hear in-depth discussions about the case,

please go subscribe and listen to my weekly show called Talking to Death.

Every week I interview a new guest, from other podcasters, actors, comedians, and journalists,

all of us who share a mutual interest in true crime.

Throughout this whole season, every week, I'll be recapping the latest episode in the

intro portion of Talking to Death.

And here's our discussion breaking down everything you've heard in Up and Vanished so far.

So if you like it, please go subscribe to Talking to Death on your podcast app, and

stay tuned this Friday for Episode 4 of Up and Vanished in the Midnight Sun.

Thanks.

See you soon.

Episode 3 of Up and Vanished just came out.

It's got some new revelations in it, and it's hard for me to even think objectively and

zoom out and answer what I think anyone would even want to know.

So Dylan, I'm going to kick it to you, because you just listened to the episode, and you

tell me what stands out as like an objective listener, you think.

This one was, it was crazy, you know, start to finish.

It's, there's a lot of information there.

You talk to a lot of different kinds of people.

This episode deals really heavily with law enforcement, all these different departments

of, you know, police and state troopers and private investigators and city hall.

I mean, what was your take on, you know, not only dealing with these people, but collecting

all the information and presenting it?

I mean, how, how was that for you?

with season one, because that was a wildly different story.

But for the most part, season two, three, other shows I've been a part of, Dead and

Gone, there really isn't ever some super strong narrative about the police being corrupt

or blatantly not doing their job.

And it's just a thing that gets thrown around a lot in true crime documentaries that, you

know, the police aren't doing their job.

They didn't do it or they did it themselves or whatever.

And so I never really have bought too much into that in the cases that I've been a part

of because it wasn't necessarily true.

Now, Tara Grinstead season one, there was proof that there was a tip that was submitted

back in 2005, not too long after Tara went missing, that was in the case file.

And so there was some real proof to the fact that it wasn't investigated to the fullest

degree.

And you could look at that as the reason why it went unsolved for 10 plus years.

Right.

But in the other cases, for the most part, I've had pretty good relationships with law

enforcement.

You know, season two, Crystal Reisinger, the Colorado Bureau of Investigation has always

been awesome.

Even the county sheriff's been great.

Season three, locally, we never made that much contact, but we were able to establish

a relationship with the FBI through that.

And though they were hesitant at first, they ended up going on record with us and actually

having a conversation about how they handle cases like that.

And let us actually ask them questions about it.

All that to say, to me, this is the first time that I've ever really strongly felt like

the police are a major problem in this case.

And I'm not saying it in the way of just pointing the finger like you didn't do your

job, I could do better.

It's literally not at all what I'm trying to say.

I'm just saying that I think if you're trying to break down why Florence Ocpialek's

disappearance remains unsolved, I think it is extreme incompetence from the known police

department to the point where it makes you wonder what else is going on.

I get that it's a hard place to live.

I get that there are a lack of resources.

But what I don't get is that one of those resources is the FBI.

And I have had email correspondence with the FBI, and they told me that this case belongs

to the known police department.

Therefore, they weren't even going to comment on it to me.

If you try to ask any question to the known PD, one, they don't want to answer.

And anything I have heard from anyone who has gotten through to them, it's as if they

don't take it seriously or even act like it's a case of theirs at all.

And having looked into this for almost a year now, I strongly believe that in the early

days, especially, it was a lack of care and effort and just investigative work, basic

investigative work that allowed this case to get to the point that it is today.

the FBI and known PD.

This might be a case where the boundary between these jurisdictions is allowing a crack to

form.

And it seems like this case and probably a lot of other cases tend to just fall through

the crack.

What do you have to say about these jurisdictional lines?

that the known police department has always been pretty disorganized.

And if you hear what Sue's talking about, it's like a revolving door of new people in

and out.

They never really seem to keep a police chief for very long.

And the way that it works from my understanding is that if the known police department wants

assistance, then they can request that from the FBI and the FBI will come from Anchorage

to help out.

But only if they request it or in, I guess, if there was some other scenario where the

FBI felt that there was something nefarious going on or something and was doing their

own investigation into it.

So they did do that one time in the first couple of weeks after Florence went missing.

They did request help from the FBI to help search and they came out for a couple of days.

And to my knowledge, they've never been back since then.

But that's because they were never asked to come back.

And I think what's happened is the FBI has never come back because they didn't think

they needed their help or weren't considering that.

And the known PD never asked for help, also never did anything either.

And this isn't the same people.

So I'm not going to, you know, make that kind of that.

None of the people who work there now were there or a part of that.

Right.

But if you're working for a department that has a dark history like that, where one of

your former officers murdered a native woman.

Then I would just I would think if I was ever a police chief there that one of my primary

goals outside of serving and protecting, right, would be to regain the trust of the community

because the people before me totally broke it.

Right.

And from what I've seen and who people I've talked to and the way they've been to us,

it doesn't seem like that matters at all or has ever been a factor to them.

In 2011, something strange began to happen at the high school in Leroy, New York.

She's like, I can't.

And it's all these girls.

Yeah.

Well, yeah.

It's all in your head.

Oh, my gosh, you're exaggerating.

Or is it something else entirely?

Something's wrong here.

Something's not right.

Hysterical.

Follow Hysterical on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

You can binge all episodes of Hysterical early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus.

I think a big thing might be that the Nome Police Department, I don't think they're

prepared to handle a homicide investigation.

I don't think they have the tools or experience to do that.

And I think it's weird that the ABI or FBI has given them responsibility over this case when I

think the FBI is better suited to investigate a homicide and interrogate these people and do this.

I don't think Nome, it's a small town.

Any small town is never historically good at investigating a homicide.

They don't have the resources to solve this now.

I think they did have the resources to solve it then.

Because they didn't find anything from the search anyway.

But there were people, there were names, there were persons of interest,

that to my knowledge, and until proven wrong, and I've looked very hard,

and I would love to be surprised by this and find out that it actually is true.

But to my knowledge, they've never even interrogated any person of interest in this case.

Even the person who had her things.

And so, you missed the opportunity to potentially solve this.

You let a case get cold because you didn't do what I think are basic steps in investigating anything.

And I think that because it was missed then, and by different people,

they set the Nome PD up for future failure.

And now it's in a place where if you have persons of interest that are

way long gone in other faraway places, yeah, no shit, you don't have the resources to do that.

We've been met with that same challenge.

And it's hard for us when it's our full-time focus and we don't have to do their day-to-day.

And so, I understand how it would be almost near impossible now.

But that signals to me that they should be more open and willing to cooperate

and just be an open book, especially if you weren't the ones who were there beforehand.

But there's an ego, there's all the bad shit that you could read about some cops.

Not all cops, but some cops.

All the fucking markings of that are here.

and someone's listening, do you have a message for them?

Something you'd like them to hear?

I realize that you don't want to, that's okay.

It was never my plan or intention to have some gotcha moment with you.

I'm not trying to point the finger at anybody.

And like I said before, none of you were really even there when this happened,

so it's not even possible for me to do that.

But I think that when I had that first conversation with Crockett a long time ago now,

I tried, even tape that you didn't hear because I cut it out,

I was telling him about the resources that I thought I could help give to them for them to use.

And there was no interest in doing that.

Also, Alaska State Troopers are a big deal there.

Both exist on Front Street, right there in Nome.

They each have their own department, their own office space.

Maybe this is a good transition to start talking about Joseph Balderas,

because Joseph's case is under the purview of AST.

How is it dealing with them, and what's your take on them?

It was miles and miles outside of the actual downtown city.

So Flo went missing on West Beach, and that's pretty close to the downtown area of Nome.

And that's within the Nome Police jurisdiction.

Cases that are out in the wildlife frontier of Alaska, way outside of the city,

those are cases that automatically get assigned to the Alaska State Troopers, from what I've gathered.

And so because Joseph likely went missing out there, or at least it appears that he did,

his truck was found out there.

It appears to be the last place he was, unless something else happened.

But on the surface, this would be a case that

the Alaska State Troopers would take on because of that.

And so I did have a brief conversation with a trooper who works in Nome at the office there.

I think you guys were both there when we did that.

And she was, you know, she was open enough,

more of a conversation than we ever have with anyone at Nome PD.

But it seemed to me like Joseph's case specifically,

they had completely wrapped up and decided that it was a bear,

even though we can't prove it was, in the end.

And I'm not saying that I know what it is or not,

but Andy Klamser has shared with me a lot more details about his disappearance

that weren't included in the podcast episode in episode three yet.

And there are just some major unanswered questions that you just can't ignore.

And we're going to get to that actually later on in the series.

It comes back.

I guess I could just say this now, but we've been working with Andy

really ever since that first meeting with him.

And he's been a huge help for Florence's investigation

and kind of just navigating Alaska to begin with.

And he's, and the dude has so many resources and expertise.

He's, he was a Alaska cop detective for 20 plus years.

So he's an ex-cop and he gets it.

And so I really put a lot of credence into what he says.

And he has literally hundreds of pages of investigative work

and interviews and tape with people in Joseph's case that he's given us.

And we've scoured for months.

And there are just some major unanswered questions in there that you cannot ignore.

And the more I look into it, the fact that they never found anything to me,

like they didn't find his backpack or a phone or a piece of clothing or whatever.

Right.

Just thinking logically, if he left his truck and walked out there to the river,

how far could someone actually go?

Like within reason, right?

How far could he have possibly gone?

There's got to be like a finite radius of what that is.

And they searched that and searched way beyond that with dogs.

It's like he just wasn't there.

If he is there and they didn't find him, that would be tragic.

But it is so odd that they didn't.

And I'd love to search again.

But that, coupled with a few of the stories about the roommate,

which we'll get into later on in the series,

just makes me think that there's something else going on.

And it starts to look and smell a lot like Florence's disappearance, really.

He tells you that it may be worth,

instead of reaching out to Known PD to no avail,

it may be worth overstepping them and going straight to the city manager at City Hall

to get the information you're looking for.

How useful of a tip was that?

Props to Andy because I did not think that was going to work.

I had lost faith in everything after that first exchange with Known PD.

But, Dan, it worked.

Then we got an email, again, saying that we're denied.

Even though we've already been sent this.

So either they got their wires crossed and thought that it wasn't sent,

or the person who sent it didn't say that they sent it and pretended like they didn't,

or they changed their mind and talked to Known PD or whoever it was

and wanted to basically say,

even though you have this, you can't have it.

But that's not how it works in the real world.

And we do have it.

And I'm glad that we do, because I don't think that

that information is being used appropriately anywhere else right now.

So I'd rather put it to good use.

So they're saying that there is an active and ongoing investigation

into the matter of Oregon John.

they're referring to Florence Okpiolek's case.

And there's a long list of things on that report.

That was never talked about.

I'll tell you now.

But I mean, there's 93 incidents on that report,

and I wasn't about to read all 93 of them for you.

I just went from the bottom, which would be back to starting in 2016,

which is when I believe he moved there.

And I just started rattling off, going up the list closer and closer to 2020.

All of the major charges that to me stood out like they were a problem.

There's other incidents in there that are lesser offenses,

or even some exchanges that I don't really fully understand what it was

because they don't really unpack it all the way.

But in terms of trying to understand the kind of person that you may be dealing with,

I read off in order going closer and closer to the date that Florence disappeared.

And we'll get into this more in the next episode and further on in the series.

But when this was the main thing that I had on this person,

I couldn't help but analyze it.

And there was a pattern I sort of saw where

the closer you got to the date of Florence's disappearance in late August,

there is a genuine, very real uptick in his run ends with the law.

It just seems to get more and more and more and worse and worse.

And then on the day she went missing, day after,

there are two reports or two incident reports.

And they're just little log lines.

And it has the names of the officers.

There's two different officers.

And all it says is missing person.

So missing person, missing person,

meaning that he was interacted with by the known PD in relation to Flo's disappearance.

To my knowledge, that is the extent of what they've done investigating Oregon John.

I hope that isn't true.

But I've never heard about any sort of legitimate interrogation.

I think that what we're looking at in that document is it.

Can you give us any little tidbits?

And to me, to me, that's always interesting,

whether it's me watching a true crime documentary or listening to a true crime podcast,

or investigating a real true crime myself.

When all things start pointing in one direction, really so quickly,

it makes you want to step back and re-evaluate and make sure that there's not

just a whole bunch of biases here that are sending you this direction and that it is correct.

Then there's the other part of me that comes out that really, truly, to my core,

believes that I think a majority of the time, it's always the simplest answer.

Not every time, but a majority of the time.

That's 51%.

But in my experiences and what I believe, my opinion is that

sometimes if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck, it's just a duck, man.

And in this case, it sent us directly to Oregon John.

Now in episode four, we hear for the first time, another theory, new names emerge.

It starts to paint a picture, a clearer picture of what may have transpired that night.

But John is still in that picture.

with Odyssey. Your host is Payne Lindsey. The show is written by Payne Lindsey with

additional assistance from Mike Rooney. Executive producers are Donald Albright and Payne Lindsey.

Lead producer is Mike Rooney, along with producers Dylan Harrington and Cooper Skinner.

Editing by Mike Rooney and Cooper Skinner with additional editing by Dylan Harrington.

Supervising producer is Tracy Kaplan. Additional production by Victoria McKenzie,

Alice Kanique Glenn, and Eric Quintana. Artwork by Rob Sheridan. Original music by Makeup and

Vanity Set. Mix and mastered by Cooper Skinner. Thank you to Oren Rosenbaum and the team at UTA

Beck Media and Marketing and the Nord Group. Special thanks to all of the families and community

members that spoke to the team. Additional information and resources can be found in

our show notes. For more podcasts like Up and Vanished, search Tenderfoot TV on your

favorite podcast app or visit us at tenderfoot.tv. Thanks for listening.