Jedidiah Jenkins (author and memoirist)

Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. It's Thanksgiving.

We miss that turkey.

Oh, yeah. And I've stolen that, you know, from Aaron. I just got to give a shout out to... He's the proprietor. Yeah.

You got to give credit where credit's due.

We have a really good friend of ours on today. Jedediah Jenkins. Jedediah Jenkins. He's so good. When I met Kristen, they lived together, and that was her very best friend in the world.

Yes.

And he's so immersed in our friendship circle, and he's just an incredibly talented writer.

He's a memoirist.

He is a memoirist, which I didn't even know that term until I did my research on Jedediah. Yeah. But he has a few great books. He has To Shake the Sleeping Self, Like Streams to the Ocean, and he has a new book out right now called Mother Nature, A 5,000-Mile Journey to Discover if a Mother and Son Can Survive Their Differences. It's great.

He's great. This is such a fun episode. For a second, I was like, whoa, am I partial? Like? why?

He is incredibly interesting. We love Jedediah Jenkins. And what a name, Jedediah Jenkins. Oh, also, just side note, he also is who introduced me to Huey, my favorite guy in all of the South.

That's right.

Yeah.

People will remember Huey. He was on a fact check. He was. He was wonderfully polarizing, just as I would expect.

The lake. Oh, I know.

Swimming in the lake all day, going on boat rides on the lake, jumping in the lake at night when it's warm and it got cool out.

Such a nice pastime.

I love the lake. The good news is, lake life is reentering my life.

Oh, true. It's on its way.

It is. And I'm going to bring it back. And luckily, I know who can help me make it happen. Wayfair, they have everything I'll need to make our home the ultimate summer destination, Lake House Bonanza.

Chairs, tables.

Yes. More stuff. Umbrellas, fans, everything. Yeah. Deck the place out.

I also, I want to take a trip at some point this summer, small trip, I don't know where, and I'm going to be scanning Viator, see what's available.

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I love it here.

It's cozy, right?

Yeah, very. Maybe. I peeked up here like when you bought this house, but I've never been up here, since it's become armchairs' iconic layer, and it's much cozier than it looks in photos.

Yeah, that's what people say. You know a place first, and you see it in photos second. You can't evaluate the photos, probably, objectively.

The spatial mind.

The hippocampus.

Is that what that does?

Yeah, and you know how I learned that? Well, whose book was it? Paul Bloom's, because he gave us a little rhyme. The hippocampus is how you know where you're at on campus.

Wait, he did not say that to us. I've never heard that.

It was in his book, and then I said it to him, and he said, oh, you really read the book.

Okay, my question is, Paul Bloom is someone I only know from podcasts, and he's so articulate, so delightful, but some people who are amazing interviews and amazing speakers, the book version of them is less interesting. Ah, sure, sure, sure.

And vice versa, too.

Very vice versa. Well, you know better than me.

Probably more vice versa, where someone's so well-spoken in writing, and then in person, they're tongue-tied, or they're just not an expert.

Wait, I have a question. Yeah. So I got here at 10.59.. I'm very punctual, my whole life. I felt very, Jada Pinkett.

Okay.

And my question is, have you, and you don't have to name names, had somebody who just was very late and unapologetic?

Well, we'll name names, because it's okay, because we talked about it when it happened. And this crazy course of coincidence afforded this reaction from me, which was, Machine Gun Kelly. Do we want to interview him? Yeah, he's a big name, I guess. He's got to be interesting.

You went in with some preconceived notions.

Yeah, just some book-by-the-cover stuff.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And then, I think he was supposed to be on Monday, so then I spent the whole morning researching him. And in the research, it became incredibly evident to me that I loved him, that I knew him so well, that I related so much to him. And I learned how absolutely prolific he is. Now, whether it's stuff I consumed or not, you got to admire the volcano of creativity. And I can tell he's a vulnerable.

So you're going to make me feel bad about him being late.

No, no. Oh, I'm thrilled. He straight didn't show up.

You're here.

We're here. He canceled right before the interview, which normally would have annoyed me because I spent the whole day researching him. But I was like, yeah, okay, that's no problem. Could he come on Wednesday? Yeah.

He was apologetic, though.

I will say that. And he sat down, but I didn't get mad at him. It's just a testament to you. think your reactions are predictable or they're objectively like, of course I'd be mad. Anyone would be mad.

We've had people be late, but no one's been just like, yeah, accept my lateness.

The only thing that I know in that world famously, is Rihanna. Rihanna called me when I was working at Invisible Children.

What are you talking about, Jeff?

Get ready for this. I'm so excited to name drop this. I was working at Invisible Children, which is a charity where we made documentaries about child soldiers. Rihanna saw one of our videos.

Hold on one second. We make documentaries about child soldiers. Sounds like it could be celebratory. Okay. So, abducted children who were forced into-.

Conscripting Jeff. Yes, okay. Documentaries to stop the use of child soldiers.

There we go.

Invisible Children made Kony 2012, that clusterfuck- Viral. Viral situation. Rihanna saw it. She's like, I've never been this moved. She knows a mutual friend of ours who's a music video director.

No, never.

Psychopaths.

But the fifth time, I'm like, even a scammer doesn't keep calling back. They move on. I pick it up, and it's a Barbados accent. No! I don't even know what she sounds like speaking.

What?

She's shooting a music video in L.A. Oh, my God. I drive up from San Diego. I show up at the music video set. I've never been on a music video set.

Six hours?

No, hey, I'll be right out. Nothing, of course.

Do you think she forgot?

I think that she is so present and doing whatever she wants and just moves through the world. I don't think it's conscious of. I'm going to make them wait and flex. No. I think she's just like, life is so hectic, and I do exactly what I want when I want, and it's worked out for me, so I'm going to keep doing that.

Like, how tall, would you say?

My height, but she was wearing heels, so taller than me. I'm 5'10".

Well, you know what, Dax?

Mom.

Yeah, go ahead.

You call her something.

I think she's so sexy.

Oh.

Well, yeah, who doesn't?

She's the sexiest person.

I think she's so sexy, and I call her the sex giraffe. And Monica hates it.

Yeah, because it's like-.

But then some arm cherries liked it because they made a beautiful painting of the sex giraffe. It was a hybrid of Rihanna and the sexy giraffe, and then Monica and I were peeking around bushes.

It's an incredible painting. But also, it led to a horrible conversation that made me sex chinchilla.

Sex chinchilla.

Oh, God.

Isn't that so unappetizing?

Aren't chinchillas so soft?

I honestly think it's appetizing because the softness. And I have found in my late bloomer sexual journey that I really like a smaller person.

That's nice.

Same, same, same. I mean, you're beyond.

You're above 4'11". Keep walking. Wow. But you gotta be crazy powerful. You gotta be asymmetrically powerful.

It's fluffy.

Do you like your little ones powerful?

No. Okay. Yeah, good.

I love the honesty. Yeah, me too.

I like them to need me to protect them. Because your wife does not need you to protect her, but she likes it.

I need protecting from her.

I lived with her in her beautiful hillside estate. Yes.

It was a 65 bedroom.

Pre-Rihanna, Rihanna.

Yes, pre-Rihanna. And you were like, you don't need this house.

Yep.

I remember.

I was like, how much do you pay for this? How much do you make on Veronica Mars?

I was her friend for a number of years and saw her go through different boyfriends or whatever. And it was like, la, la, la. And then this lightning struck and everything shifted when you showed up. I will say it is very jarring to see someone meet their soulmate when you're front row. Because I didn't have my first boyfriend until I was 30..

Same, Jed. Hello. TikTok.

But it is very profound to see.

It was a bumpy ride at first. I'm sure there was a lot of consoling. I had broken up with her at one point. I'm sure you hated me at some point. Be honest.

Well, you are a very strong energy. And as a gay man, I fear alpha energy. Yeah. And it made me recoil a little bit of just like, wow, this is a lot of shifting energy in the house.

Agreed.

Did you think you might beat you up?

No, I just don't like being uncomfortable.

Yeah, and Dax loves discomfort.

No.

Well, then you become the ultimate friend, because you're the friend we never thought we could have.

Yes, this is why Silicon Valley loves Ashton Kutcher.

It's very that. And it's why, back in the Obama era, the White House Correspondents Dinner was so fun because D.C. is power and they dream of popularity, which is Hollywood. And Hollywood is popular and they dream of power. And so they go and jerk each other off.

It is.

It is. Yeah.

But, at least from my perspective, because you didn't trigger me at all. What triggered me is, I think, everyone's trying to take advantage of me and everyone else. And so I'm starting to love this person. And I see like, well, five people live here. Who pays what for rent?

Which is protection.

This woman. But despite that, I fall in love with you and Ryan immediately, because Ryan Hansen's also living there. And Amy. And Amy. So many dogs.

You were out?

I came out to my friends like at 19. Okay. And then my parents at 21, 22.. But there's a thing in gay culture called best boy syndrome. Where, when you wake up into your identity as a middle schooler and you realize what you are, naturally makes you in trouble.

Let's list some accolades.

I was student body president. I was most likely to be success. No.

We go to USC. We go to Pepperdine. Pass, the bar.

The irony that Dax is the popular kid. You're the popular kid.

Well, I was very lucky. Yeah. That's the thing. The subjective experience of anyone is. I'm liked until they find out.

Of course. Yeah.

Yes. But when I met you, you were presenting as gay, but very Christian and believing in it and never going to act on it. Yeah. That was your declaration. Like I am gay.

Well, and when your heart is scary, so you turn to your head and you can create arguments for anything.

You were like, I'm going to use all this energy that I would normally be putting into this. And I'm going to dedicate it to invisible children and this cause and that cause. And I'm going to.

And to knowing the Bible and being an advocate for Christianity as a gay man better than anyone else. So I can prove to the community that I fear exile from the most. My Christian friends, who was my whole community, exile, which is an ape's biggest fear. So I was like so scared of that. So I was going to become the boss of the Bible.

Yeah.

But the thread pulled on the sweater was that I'm obsessed with anthropology and nature and evolution. And I always have been. The first linchpin of my deconstruction of my faith was the fact that my mom allowed me to watch the Discovery Channel. Oopsies. Learning about dinosaurs and learning just the incongruity and the way that their explanations were so facile and silly.

Well, that's delightful, because I also was very horny for your mind. I immediately liked how you thought and spoke. You're so articulate. It's incredible. But we went out to lunch.

Isn't it so wild? I had my best friend in college. He was very Christian. And it's so interesting when you're a closeted Christian or gay Christian. So many men, their sexuality is on the spectrum, Kinsey scale or whatever that is.

Wow.

Hours and hours. What? And they would do it to me for hours and hours.

It's like your hair play, Monica. I know.

But I would never do that with a girl. Right, right, right, right, right. Because I'd be like, my hands hurt. Yes. Let's just talk.

Yes.

Didn't you get aroused?

No. The NRB, the no. reason boner, which was so popular in high school, was men, just had NRBs all the time, all the time. NRB. I don't get those because my subconscious knows that's dangerous.

It'll be a tell.

Boom, it's a tell. Yeah.

Your penis defines.

Defines me. No.

No, it betrays you. Betrays you. Yeah. Your penis has betrayed you. Yes.

So my penis learned very early that it does not wake up unless it has overt clues. Wow. So you have to like seduce me and start touching me and kiss me, and then it is up. But it is not up from visual, anything from a distance at all.

And from butt rubbing apparently.

No, I know.

I would have been spraying all over myself.

Wow. But did it feel intimate?

Very. I wish I had my college email. I had email love letters endless. You're the most important thing that's ever happened to me. I don't remember the day before we met with multiple guys that are straight and married.

Under the guise of friendship.

Under the guise of brotherhood in Christ.

Yes. Yes. Yes. Wow. Intimacy.

I'm back. God bless your continuity. So he said, don't you think that it was such a gift from God that he made you so socially relatable? because you get so much intimacy from your friendships. You don't need to have sex.

And your ego probably. Yeah.

Be a leader of gay Christians. Yeah.

That experience of being a horny gay boy and realizing that A, you're in trouble and B, the church, that is your community, is going to reject you. The place where the best boy syndrome goes is to become a priest, because, oh, I'll show you and I can marry God. That's what they do. So then it's like I'm the best of the best, but repressed sexuality really always comes out sideways.

Also, I have the most built in excuse of all time. I'm celibate.

Exactly. Bulletproof. Yes. I always think of those hydraulic presses when you push something, push something, push something, and then they explode at the very end out the side. That is what happens to specifically repressed and oppressed sexuality, because it's one of our primary wirings after breathing and eating, and it will take control in the driver's seat eventually.

Ugh.

I mean, I don't know about y'all. I did not get one birds and bees conversation. Did you?

We had a book, you know, that cartoon drawing book that just sat on the-.

That school gave you or your family gave you?

No, it was on my family's shelf, but I don't even think they told me, hey, read this. It was just there- If you need it. For me to go look at it if I wanted to. But no, I have zero memory of an actual conversation.

How often were you in that book? I liked the book. Yeah, I bet.

I was kind of perverse.

Oh, I was finding romance. There was one I would do anything to find, I would frame it. There was one romance novel that my mom had down on a shelf. It was like the two-third cover where there's a peekaboo of the woman and you open it and see the man. He was so gorgeous.

Oh, on a cartoon?

Cartoon. Oh, okay, okay. Yeah, it was like the Iditarod movie.

Yeah, sure, sure. By the way, I don't know any of these movies you're watching. Neither of those have rang a bell.

You said Bolt? Balto.

Oh, Balto.

Don't know it. And the first one?

Rock-A-Doodle.

Yeah, what?

These are Disney knockoffs. Oh. There was a, like, All Dogs Go to Heaven. Yeah. There was a disgruntled Disney animator who broke off and started his own.

That made you horny as hell.

Were you allowed to watch regular Disney movies?

Oh, yeah.

Okay, you were.

I wasn't allowed to watch The Simpsons or Married with the Children, which there must have been some thing, because every millennial kid has that same rule. that was, like, raised by a religious family. Yes. What did they watch? That'd be a good podcast research.

In place of?

What news story did they watch to make those two shows get blocked?

Oh, 100%.

You're right. Yeah, you almost said 60 Minutes, and that seems like the most likely suspect.

Oh, I need to tell you, Dax, early in your influence in my life, there's multiple things that you've deeply influenced me on, one of them being your love of 60 Minutes, which, you know, 60 Minutes has been around forever, so I remember watching my grandparents watch it and being like, that's a no from me, dog.

Well, yeah, that's a no from me. Also, any show that starts with a stopwatch, it's basically like, you've only got an hour left of this.

Yeah, dear God.

It's counterintuitive.

It is my golden compass of life. They are so good. I'm obsessed with every decomposing anchor. They're at the front lines of every cool, interesting thing. It's the best reporting.

And for 40-plus years now, it's insane how long the consistency has stayed good.

It's unbelievable. And for those of you that don't know how to find CBS, like me, their YouTube channel is lit. I just follow them on YouTube. Every story posted at length, 20 minutes, is on their YouTube channel.

Oh, and do they have the archive?

They feature ones from the archive, but I don't know how deep it goes.

Well, Monica and I were just talking about this literally yesterday. I said, there's a single reference. that's most frequent for me. It's definitely 60 Minutes. That's the thing, I'm constantly like, I saw a segment on Ted Turner in 99..

Yeah, I like that. they haven't tried to keep up with this new age. They're still boring in a good way.

My only complaint is, I want them to be investing in the future anchors a little better. They're not introducing new characters good enough for me that are youthful, that are going to carry the torch. I'm a little bit nervous.

It is interesting. There may be a power dynamic there of just like legacy. Yeah. Sort of like what we have in politics right now.

And I get it, you've got all these ace gunslingers on the roster, and there's only three segments.

And they're still doing great. Yes. They're not like ebbity, ebbity.

Yeah, they don't want to be ageist. We should let them be.

I know, it's just, yeah, you're not going to tell Leslie Stahl, you don't have a segment this week because we got this new, but we do need to introduce the people that are going to carry the torch. Because we don't want to be in a Jeopardy situation. Right. Where it's just like, oh, fuck, what do we do now?

It's less about ageism and more about until that one doctor from Harvard figures out how to make us not age, there's a guaranteed sunset, and it's like, let's keep the young blood in here.

Yeah, I just want to make sure that our longevity plan is in place. That's it. That's it for the program. The program has got to transcend all of these generations.

Wait, what was your sexual awakening? human-wise? Who did you see that was a human, not an animated animal?

Can I set him up for a great one from the book? Because I think it's such a wonderful time to be horny. You rolling the Explorer.

Oh, and the firefighter? Yeah. I got in a car accident on January 1st, 2003,, which made me 21 or 20.. Wait, I'm so bad at this type of math. So if I was born- What year were you born?

No, you turned-.

The end of 2002.. You turned 20..

I was 20.. So in January 1, 2003, I was 20.. Yes. That is so hard for my mind.

You had just turned 20..

That is tricky, because you're changing years. A December birthday is virtually like not being born in that year. Yeah. You're really born in the next year. Okay, helpful.

83.. So I was 20 and had not had sex, had not kissed anyone, and had not been touched by anyone except my friends. There's also very much a wrestling culture. I don't know if that's with all boys. As a little gay boy, I'm like, let's wrestle all the time.

I spent most of my youth wrestling as well.

Yeah, and just being like, don't get a boner. That was where I practiced it. Wow. But anyway, I flipped this car. It was the extra car that my family had, which was just like no seatbelts, bald tires, no one worried about it.

I don't know what a bald tire is. You're paying attention to the song you're listening to.

Yes, which is Tori Amos. Yeah. And the car fishtails, and then goes perpendicular to the road. The tires catch. I go up the hill, because it was in like a canyon.

Also, what a cliche.

Hot fireman. I know, hot fireman. Who do,

oh, Tig's got a joke about that.

Hot fireman, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. She doesn't understand the attraction to men until she was carried by a firefighter out of her-.

Well, is it because A, they train all the time, and B, I would assume, in most places, especially east of the Mississippi, there aren't that many fires, so there's lots of time to work out. And compare yourself with the other guy in the station.

Same amount of car accidents. I think it's- I think it's the bulk of their work is car accidents.

You're right, you're right.

It's also that you're in distress, and someone is saving you. Like, it's already heightened.

It's true.

But I will say, it is also a sign of the intense repression that that's enough, that you don't have anything relative to that. That's the apex of your physical intimacy with a man. So it is sparking some shit. Had you been hooking up with tons of dudes, the firefighter would have been, like, handsome, but I don't think it would have been-.

Thrilling. Giving you oxygen. That's what you remember in a moment of crisis. Yeah. Right.

How long were you intertwining these traumatic experiences?

Well, when something traumatic happens, the pores in the brain open to remember the scenario, so it never happens again or does happen again. So it's like looking at everything really quickly to be like, okay, how do we do this again, or how do we avoid this for the rest of our life?

And you remember every detail.

Which is why time slows down in a car accident. Anyway, I remember having my first kiss on a beach in San Diego.

Can you tell us, though, how do you, from the time you and I had lunch, where you're committed to stay this course, what happens between there and the first kiss? It didn't sneak up on you, I imagine. You had made the decision.

It really happened my 27th year, where you see 30 down the barrel of a gun. You know, in Topanga Canyon, they call this Saturn Return, 27 to 33..

In Topanga Canyon?

You know. And you're evaluating all the stories that you were told that you tried to perfect in your 20s, and then you start to audit that scenario and say, does this work for my life because I have one and only life? And then you start to remove and see if you can throw the bathwater and keep the baby. 27 to 33 is the refining season where you kind of step into who you really are.

Ooh, I like this architecture.

Yeah, very true for me, and I didn't hear about it until after the fact. I was like, well, those dates line up perfectly. But I saw 30 down the barrel of a gun, and at 27, I fell in love, psycho, cross-eyed, in love with one of my best friends, who was 20 at the time. And he didn't know I was gay, and this was now a pattern that I could recognize. Now I'd done that six times or something, and it was the most painful love.

It's a powder keg.

You just finally live long enough to see the pattern, and you're just like, fuck this. And I still was very much in the. I want to follow God vibes. I was stepping back from dogma, and I was more, I believe in God, but we'll see.

It can't be the version that I was.

It cannot be exactly the version. And there were some progressive Christian writers, like Brian McLaren and Richard Rohr, who I was reading, that were very influential to me, and they were very pro-gay. Then I went to a Exodus International meeting to try to gay convert. You did?

Wait, what's an Exodus International?

So Exodus International is now debunked. It was a gay conversion camp slash. they had meetings around America, and it was to heal you from being gay.

You did this at what age?

27,, 26,, 27,. yes. You went? I didn't go to a camp. I went to a meeting in Venice Beach at a church, and I went.

Just someone white-knuckling it through life.

Yes. He takes me to this meeting, and I'm already.

It's not the future you want.

But I'm thinking that's my best case scenario, is that white-knuckled life. So then I go in there, and the whole fucking room is that energy, and there's worship, there's singing songs, and the guy gets up there. No, I want everyone to come forward. I want you to scream out and say the name of the person that molested you, that made you this way, and forgive them. And I was never molested.

Right.

Everything was great. I mean, sure, my parents divorced, but my dad is amazing and raised me great. And so I'm like, oh, I wasn't molested. But then people are slowly trickling up, some are not. The energy in the room was so zombie, and there's a verse in the Bible that Jesus says, which is, I come to bring you life and life abundant, and you will know the truth by the fruit it bears.

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert. If you dare.

Yeah, I like that. Have you heard? the one, comparison is the thief of joy?

Yes.

That's a good one too. It is.

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Everybody in New England is after us.

And Casey Affleck. Go, go, go, go, go. What are you doing?

Taking notes.

Taking notes on a criminal conspiracy. The Instigators, rated R. Streaming August 9th on Apple TV Plus.

Yeah.

I imagine this group having peel-offs occasionally. It's just the wildest fucking in a hotel. Shame-induced, high-octane.

Well, and shame-induced sex is so interesting. I've had a lot of gay experiences with men who love the kink. They love the shame. They love the intensity of it. Right, part of it.

You're born with the eternal sin.

It's, like, so memetic, and it's so viral and sad.

Well, we are really, really designed to be prone and vulnerable to shame, because it's how we make sure we don't get excluded. We feel it easily. We feel it deeply. The stakes are high. We're wired for it.

Do you think, how do I say this in another way? Because I'm so tired of the bankrupt term cancel culture, but that is a shame-based reaction. It's, like, so fun to shame somebody and exclude them from the tribe, and it's our fear. That trend, or whatever that social media provides us, is something we've always done. But I feel like it's mitigated by face-to-face.

Well, I think once you take on the identity of the group, your own individual morality is silenced. I think if you're joining this group, it feels like consensus. Everyone seems to agree on this. I feel bolstered by the consensus.

I remember the first time I ever really felt that was after the election of Trump, and just the liberal panic and the women's march and the clarity of, like, Republicans are evil was so viscerally clear. And then the moral panic and the incredible uprising of 2020, of Black Lives Matter. I remember, I was like, wow, there is something going on in the air where I can taste it. And that was probably also exacerbated by. we were all trapped in our houses and just ready to explode.

Well, it's happening right now.

Yeah, it's happening right now. I feel it very deeply.

Another opportunity to declare. Yeah.

And the declare is demanded.

Yes, it's required. The middle path is not welcomed.

Yeah, it's very triggering to me.

Yeah, me too, me too. If you're not with us, you're against us. Well, hold on. Hold on, hold on, hold on.

Well, what was your reaction to 9-11?.

I'm lucky enough to have journaled. There would be what I thought was my reaction, but I actually wrote about four pages the day after. I guess, depending on where you land on the spectrum, this will sound like a big brag, but my whole four pages was, oh, no, this is terrible, and I'm afraid we won't make the best out of this. And I think it's going to be an excuse for the government to take a lot of control, and I think it's going to justify a lot of violence.

Were you at UCLA, or were you done?

I was one year out. It's the most beautiful moment of experience on this planet in my lifetime, which is. I went to 7-11, and 7-11 was packed, and it was dead quiet in there, and people were trying to allow others to get in front of them in line. There was the deepest sense of unity that I had ever experienced. We all felt like, oh, boy, here we go.

Well, as Sapolsky says, there's no free will, so who cares? I mean, everyone cares, but it's just happening.

What I do know is there was a moment on planet Earth where everyone in the world was on our side, save maybe Afghanistan or the Taliban, and we had a moment where everyone was watching and everyone felt for us, and we could have done something that's never been done in history. We could have taken the $2.8 trillion we ended up spending to kill those people, and we could have inundated them with opportunity. I just think that would have been the most insane historical example that could have happened. There's no will for it to happen, but I guess, to me, it seemed like a little bit of an opportunity lost.

Are you familiar with Thomas Friedman?

I recognize him.

So he is one of the major columnists for The New York Times, and he is one of the most respected people in understanding the Israeli-Palestinian Middle Eastern, and he's been doing that for, like, 40 years. Anyway, they had him on one of his podcasts, and in this moment, when it's very either-or and the world is very busy and confusing and painful, and I have very dear friends who are screaming on both sides.

Same. People I love.

People I love. Yeah. And I want to agree with them, and I want to agree with you. If I say one thing, then I'm hurting the other one horribly, and by not saying something, they're DMing me, what's wrong with you?

Yeah, your silence is deafening, yeah.

This man's clarity, you should get him as a guest on this show, and also to hear him speak is so delicious. Every neural pathway is paved like smooth pavement.

Fresh asphalt. Yeah.

It is unbelievable to hear him explain the dynamics, what's going on, who did what, and it feels so even.

I want to add something to the 9-11 thing, though, because I feel like it was unified, but for me, it was scary.

Oh, my God, yeah.

It's fine if I'm at school because people know me at school, but if we're at the grocery store, then people don't know, and then if I speak, it's okay because I have an American accent, but then if my dad speaks, exactly, if my dad speaks and people are wondering, and I guess I'm glad we don't wear...

A job?

Yeah, or a turban, I'm hyper-evaluating fear in that time, in addition to being like, oh, my God, my country was attacked. So for me, anyway,

it was definitely not as simple. It was very simple for me. I was a white kid who grew up in Middle Tennessee, exclusively white in my neighborhood. My school was entirely white, except for two Japanese exchange students, and then I moved to USC. This was the second week of college.

Well, and then also, as time goes on, learning that our previous actions in Afghanistan actually were seeds we planted, and this is what we sowed. We funded the Mujahedin, and we made Osama bin Laden a real leader.

We did that. We did that.

Then it gets more and more complicated.

We also created ISIS in the wake of 9-11.. We created more terrorism on accident, but we did do it.

Yeah, and again, I'm not clairvoyant. I'm not saying we didn't do the right thing. I don't know. The thing I proposed, maybe that wouldn't have worked, but I just know that we're in a 3,000-year cycle of tribal warfare, so we know what retaliation looks like, and we've never tried the explosion of love and generosity in the wake of that, and I just get curious. Then you go to the meeting, and you leave there, and that's the moment that you're kind of convicted that you are going to act on it?

The way that I would describe it is. the world is not suddenly covered in snow. It starts snowing, and then you are busy doing housework, and then you look out the window, and you're like, oh, my God, it's white outside, but it's snowing the whole time. Yeah. I very much feel that the crack in the pavement began, and it just started spreading.

I have this issue a little bit as well.

Yeah. Why wouldn't you talk to me? I'm great. Yeah.

You have it really bad. I've observed many interactions, and we walk away, and I'm like, the dude loves you, and she's like, no. I'm like,

well, no, we're just chatting.

People aren't interested in people like that. That's just not how it works. When you're horny for somebody, you're very interested.

It is still, to this day, so hard for me to believe that, but I have a lot of internalized body shame and fear. It is hard for me to believe someone thinks I'm sexy, even when they are motorboating my hairy chest, and they're obsessed.

Yeah.

I am like, what is wrong with you? Well,

that's the second stage of it, which Monica also has, is, well, you must be lower status than I thought, because you really do like me.

What's wrong with you if you like me?

I know. It's so, I have a whole nother fucking conversation that I have about over-therapization of just, okay, what happens when you know all the things and you're still doing it? Like, why can't we just live? The most uneducated, dumb people I know are like, yucking with their third kid and thriving in the country. I know.

Your girlfriend's clock.

Oh, so they're so excited, and then, my friend, Brady Bollinger, he saw me interact with this gay guy that I had met, and he goes, that guy is obsessed with you. I think I invited him over to, like a group hang. And I just wanted to meet him because he was the chaplain of the Point Loma Christian school, but he was gay, and that was like famous. And I was like, I want to know a gay Christian. He comes over, I think nothing.

You and Monica need to go on a journey. Yeah.

You need to go back to that place. you went to, the conversion.

So anyway, thank God for Brady. I'm on the train down from LA back to San Diego. I'm getting in at 1030 at night. This is 2010,, I think. So it's before Uber.

He went right bullseye.

Bulls. Yeah. And it is the best secret beach. It's like truly.

I'm douching now. I'll pick you up in 15 minutes.

Yeah, yeah.

And then, so I'm like, oh my God, he does like me. Right. then, I get a push notification on my phone. Osama Bin Laden's been killed. And then there was one news site back in the day, 2010, that had live feed news on your phone.

13 PM.

Wow.

We killed Osama Bin Laden. Monica hates when I do him, but I think it's pretty good.

It's very good.

Thank you. Jed Naya,

I hope you kiss tonight. The problem is, because then it won't stop.

Jed, if you can hear me, I hope you kiss tonight. You deserve to. I killed him for you. He represented everything that stood in your way.

That is very much what I heard. And that was the moment that I was like, oh my God, I've been kissed.

Yeah. And you went to a beach.

And I remember, while I'm kissing him, I was like, I'm so glad this isn't my 15 year old brain. My 28 year old brain is so grateful and so here. And I know who I am.

You weren't panicked.

That is nice.

I just liked it. It was very sweet.

I love that. I wish we had video of that kiss.

I know. Rob, do we have any video of this? I can watch?

Okay. Now let's talk about your parents a little bit. Because one of the sales pitches about Jed before you meet him, it precedes you. It certainly did with Kristen, my friend Jedediah Jenkins. His father was, we've even talked about it on here.

Yeah, we called you. I think on Connie's episode.

His father is what Forrest Gump was based on, which is a very funny thing to hear. You're like, what part? Like what part? Damaged legs, struggles in school.

Lots of options. We don't need to go through them all.

Fell in love with someone who died.

My father did have black braces when he was born. Oh wow. Interesting, I've never made that connection. Oh wow.

But the part that is loosely.

Forrest Gump, you know, it's touching on all these major moments of American history, and somehow Forrest Gump was in the middle of all of them. That's like the delicious idea of that movie. So there's the part of the movie that you may remember where Forrest Gump runs across America, back and forth. And then, like all these people, accumulate, and he's got this long beard and this like hat, and all of America's cheering him on for doing this.

Doesn't he wipe his face and then be happy or something?

And it creates this smiley face,

yeah. That's such a genius story.

It's so good.

That movie holds up, I think.

I'd like a rewatch.

It's darker than you remember. I watched it with Lincoln and we loved it, but I had a lot of explaining to do about...

Yeah, Jenny. Jenny.

Why are they burning her house down? Well, her dad molested her. Why is she dying? She has AIDS. She was an intervening drug user.

Wow.

I said it much softer, but I had to explain all of it. There's a lot to explain.

Anyway, that scene is based on the phenomenon of my parents walked across America in the 70s. Back then, it was very monoculture. There's three channels. If something's happening, everyone knows about it.

You got Time Magazine, you got National Geographic.

And they were on the cover of National Geographic. It was a big thing. And then they wrote books about it, A Walk Across America and The Walk West, and it sold like 12 million copies, which, now the biggest book, sells one million copies.

I was gonna say, I think McConaughey's got the most successful memoir of the last 30 years, and it sold three million. So even today, when I read that it had sold 12 million, I'm like, that's insane.

Yeah, it was insane. So I grew up in the shadow of parents who had done something major, but I also grew up in the shadow of parents who divorced when I was very young, and their love story was very Brangelina, like loved. Although I guess Brangelina was controversial. What's a love?

It started out controversial.

Yeah. But they were darlings of America.

Maybe Will and Amy. Yeah.

Oh, oh, my God. We're still with Ball.

No one was the bad guy. It was just like, they liked him as a couple.

Yeah. So they divorced when I was very young. I don't remember the divorce. I don't remember the drama. So much of it was tied to their relationship that the book deals kind of dried up.

No, but he would have to be in a franchise of equal size. Yes. Good luck.

So anyway, Monoculture, that was a very cool moment of the Forrest Gump movie, because that was something that I understood of like, oh, wow, that's cool.

Yeah. Was there a little bit of a heyday when that movie came out? Did it kind of bolster?

Yeah. I mean, there was some chatter, but I was 12.. I'm sure my dad did some interviews, but it was also hurtful to my mom again, because my mom isn't featured in that at all.

Right. I was just going to say, because we already said, like your dad, your dad, and you're saying your dad and your mom did it.

They wrote it together. Yeah.

Yeah. And they did the walk together. Well, the second half of the walk together.

He walked from New York to New Orleans first. Yes. Met her.

And they walked across the West for three years. A big impetus of my new book is understanding my mom's experience on the walk, because I always felt that it's like, oh, your dad's doing another college commencement speech. No one even knows who I am. Yeah. And he's the one whose infidelity caused us to get a divorce.

And he's now the hero.

So I grew up with that taste. I just wanted to know what it was like. And she had enough distance and she's thriving in her seventies. Maybe she can talk about it without the sting, because she was very good about not bad mouthing my dad growing up.

So admirable.

It's so difficult now knowing how gnarly it was. And we lived in a small town south of Nashville called Columbia, and they were the celebs. The Columbia Herald would post their divorce proceedings they had like a reporter in the... Because my dad fought her for custody. I mean, I was little, but it was nasty.

And your dad was just kind of independently wealthy at this point.

Well, they had made good money from the books, but then the book deals dried up. And so by the time my brain was online, eight, nine, 10,, 11, 12, we did not have money, but they had big farms and we had a nice house, but going to Applebee's was once a week and that was fancy after church. And going to the movies was a big deal. No planes, flew, nowhere, camped. I grew up cutting coupons, but I would just hear the faint stories of back when they sent us a limousine to drive us to Amy Grant's house for the like Good Morning America interview.

Yes, yes, yes.

Now in my adult life, I have a scarcity mentality with money to where I want to keep my expenses so low. Like I live in a 600 square foot cabin in Beachwood. My car is paid off cash. I have no debt because I'm always like, the book deals could dry up. I have friends who are very successful.

Do you think that experience put a premium on fame? Like? was it something that you then thought, Oh, I've never thought about that.

Or that you could sense it was missed?

Yeah, that it's a real thing that can happen because they have experienced it, but it's also elusive.

Well, I grew up where my parents, I didn't think about it. Like they weren't famous to my friends. My peers didn't care who they were.

And people in restaurants weren't stopping.

No, never, never, never.

But I guess it would be-. But all those words, though, if they have that story where you're hearing about this, remember when fantasy time before you, by the way. So it's like this glamorized time.

Yeah. I remember as a young kid, and maybe this is common, I cared about being rich. And I remember my brain was always like, if I could get a million dollars once, then I could live on $30,000 a year for this many years.