"Jen Psaki"

We do talk. It's a bit of a show. We talk and people listen. We got celebs on it and stuff. Okay.

Uh, we just, we don't have a band or television. Right now on the show, I hope that you would just not talk and just say, Hey, welcome to Smartlist. So a talk show for you guys, a listen show for me. Welcome to Smartless. Smart.

Less.

Smart. Less.

Smart. Less.

How's everybody doing today? I had a great day. I had a great morning. Yeah, but Sean, you've got a towel around your neck? Why is that?

No, it's a blanket, Jay. Oh, are you in an overly air-conditioned apartment? I certainly am. Oh, that's high-class problems. What's the temperature in New York City today?

It's hot. Is it? It's like 80, 90, I don't know. No kidding. And so you're in a place that's so hot, but you're wearing a blanket.

Well, because Scotty's at the gym, and when he gets home from the gym, it's too hot. Did you know that seven of the hottest days on record on this planet have been in the last week? Yes, yes, I know. It's crazy. And it's because of people like you?

No. Because Scotty likes you to have all your— Because Scotty doesn't want to be hot when he comes home from the gym. No, no, no. Or else. That's not true.

Hey, take that polarized cap. But wait, you love this. I think I told you this, Jason, before, but I don't know if I told you. well. You know, when Scotty and I were at a restaurant the other night, and we got in a fight about— not a fight, just a discussion about the weather, like the weather app versus the Internet.

I always look at the Internet for the correct thing, and he's like, no, just use your iPhone app, the weather app on your iPhone. I'm like, it's never right. It always says 70 or 80, and it's going to rain, and it doesn't. I go, I'll go to the Internet. And then just to diffuse the tension, when it gets real hot like that between us, like in a public place, I always look to his left, to an imaginary person, and I go, try living with it.

God. Wait, so when you go to the Internet, what do you— I go to AccuWeather. I go to AccuWeather. That's better than the Apple app. Where do you go on the Internet, Sean?

I go to Weather Channel. Oh, well, there's an app for that. Yeah, but it's just like, I just go to the—I just look it up. By the way, I can't imagine you ever fighting with anyone. I was talking about you the other day with somebody, and I said, with all seriousness, I've never seen you in a bad mood.

I've never seen you angry. I've never seen you fight, obviously, with anybody. You saw me—I got angry with you three years ago. What did I do? What did you do?

Nothing. We were just arguing about something on the phone, and then we called each other after, and you said, I think that was our first ever fight. And I said, yeah. And you smiled, and you laughed, and you said, how does it feel? God, I don't remember.

You guys got a little scrappy. I remember you guys got a little scrappy. You know, we got in a discussion. But I have been angry, like, twice. There's only, like, one or two people in my whole life that can actually push me in a corner.

so bad that when I come out, I sound like the most brilliant, like, speaker in the world. Like, when my buttons are pushed so much— I am so—I sound so smart. Otherwise. Yeah, I mean, like, watching you in the play, you know, your character gets pretty—he's not a happy guy. Yeah.

I think I get it out in that way. That was really interesting to see. So you know how to be grumpy. You just never are. Why are you so fucking happy?

You know what— And then that's why you guys are such a great—. Yeah, because I'm grumpy all the time. But I have—I'm not upset about anything. I just—I think my rest is just— Grump. Like, yeah, Amanda's always asking me, Are you okay?

Are you in a good mood? Yeah, yeah, I'm just—I just chill all the time. Yeah, you're always chill. I'm always chill. You're always super chill.

So you're in a constant state of chillax, would you say? I'm always chillaxing. And then— You know what the—. But you—but, Sean, you're always—you're always obviously happy. I'm never obviously—well, not never, obviously.

But I'm—when I'm—I'm just sort of normal. You're never normal. You're always happy. What's going on? I honestly think it's the dumbest, cliche answer, but it's the truth.

I think the way I grew up, I grew up so shit, shit, poor, we all did in my family, that it sounds so dumb, but I walk down the street every day going, Oh my God, I don't have to go through a winter in Chicago without any heat. I don't have to go without food. I don't have to go without— all these things that we didn't have as kids. That's still tangible to you. That's still— Yeah, I'm just like— It's why I work hard, and it's why I'm grateful every day.

That's pretty good. And that's the end of the show.

Will, what's—what's— You're always kind of just normal, like when you're happy about something, you can tell. When you're upset about something, you can tell. But you're usually right in the middle, like—like me. You're not—you're not on some— I've never seen— You're not on—. I feel like Sean might be taking something.

I wish. Well, you know, I think about him every once in a while. But, Will, I—I—I've never seen you really— I see you hot when you get opinionated about something. Yeah. I've never seen you angry at a person.

Well, this is the other thing that I have, too, and I've been warned by, um, Alessandra, and even by my ex, by Amy, which is just— Stop hitting people? No, Amy used to turn to me, like, I go, like, get heated about it, and then she'd just look at me, and she'd go, tone. I'd go, sorry. Oh. And so, I get— Nothing will get me hotter than that.

That's like telling me to relax. But I don't get—. If somebody just said tone. Yeah, I'd be like, oh, really? What kind of tone is— But, you see, I don't take it that way.

I don't take it personally that way, because in that moment, I go, like, oh, the other person's going through— is being subjected to my— to my shit, and so, like, I gotta— because that's a blind spot, you know? It's like, I get in this thing. where I go, I'll hear somebody in a relationship or whatever, or somebody in my life, and they'll say, hey, you said that, blah, blah, blah, and I go, boy, I really didn't see it that way. I'm really sorry, and— Yeah, I appreciate getting heads up like that, too. And I also don't want people walking on eggshells around me.

I just assume that no one's paying any attention to me, so I can just be just level and normal. But I realize that, oh, well, if I'm not sending signals that I'm in a good mood, people might be uneasy around me, or anyone else. that might, you know? I heard that the people over at Aggregate, all the staff, got together. You know what they're going to call the company.

now? Here it comes. Eggshell Productions. I thought you were going to say Aggravated. Oh, Aggravon, that would have been better.

All right, let's get to our guest. I love this person. I'm so excited for you guys to meet this person. We're all fans of this person. Okay.

And Jason, just a little heads up, she was on your list, too, I found out. Really? Yeah. You stole her? I did, I stole her.

She's going to fit right in here, since she isn't a stranger to dealing with idiots. In fact, some could agree— some could argue, sorry, she's made a career of it. Oh, he's written this. I totally read it. Chat, GPT.

Chat, GPT. Write me idiots. Oh, my God, that's so funny. In college, she had a competitive backstroke with the William & Mary Athletic Tribe before eventually deciding to dive into the mean waters of political campaigning. And though it would be difficult to be the most memed employee at the White House, she's got to be in the top five.

I'm a big fan of this super smart, super cute, ginger. Jen. It's the brilliant Jen Psaki. Get it out here. I love the transition from backstroke— I was a mediocre college swimmer, I'm just going to acknowledge at the start here, to politics, so thank you for that.

And I also love this conversation about happiness. I thought you were like a superstar backstroker. No, I was mediocre. You think you're in shape until you try to swim. I mean, any kind of swimming is really impressive, because, boy, you try two laps and you're down.

I'm with you. It's the hardest thing to do. That. and full court basketball. Jen Psaki, Jen Psaki, nice to meet you.

I'm so glad you're here. Nice to meet you. What are your thoughts on treading water as a form of exercise? Because I've heard that that involves all your muscles. Water polos.

It is hard. Now, I was a lifeguard growing up, and you have to be able to tread water for a certain amount of time. I don't know if any of you are aspiring lifeguards, but you might have to practice. It's part of the journey to save people. Let me tell you, I went with my friend once a long time, when I was a kid, to this lake, and in the middle of the lake, there was this lake.

You could lay out this... Hang on, hang on, stay with me. Sorry. This little platform that you could swim to, and we got out there, and I couldn't swim back. I panicked.

I had to grab on his back, and he had to swim. Well, this is the plot of Stand By Me. What are you talking about? No. You just made that up.

Then we found a dead body. Jen Psaki, I'm so excited that you're here. Me too. I know, me too. I'm excited to be here.

I'm a huge fan. Can I just say... And happy third birthday. Thank you, thank you, thank you. You're welcome.

It's bananas that you even know that we're on the planet. I know, I know. I watch you every single day. I'm totally starstruck. Your world is far more exciting and interesting and respectful than ours, respectable than ours.

Yeah. Well... Yeah.

Well... Her side, shall we say. Her side, her side, sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I want to, first of all, I just want to get this out of the way, the dumb stuff at the beginning.

How many people pronounce your last name wrong and do... Oh, God. I mean, 80%? Yeah. Pissoui, Pissali, Pissaki.

They add letters in between. But then I'm sympathetic to hard names and I really try hard to pronounce them, but I over-ask sometimes how to pronounce names as a result. Yeah, I'm sure, I'm sure. How are you liking doing a show? Are you...

What's the schedule like? Is it nuts or easy? Oh, yeah, it's great. I love it. I mean, it's different because my show's on Sundays.

I have another show on Thursdays, a Peacock show. You do? And I have a newsletter and a couple different things. But, yes, on Peacock. You can stream it.

But there's a lot of build-up to the Sunday show. Yeah. And so I wouldn't say the schedule is... And I appear on other people's shows, too, so it depends on the week. But it's different from the White House, where I was just in my last job, because then it was all about the briefing every day and you worked 24-7..

It's not like that anymore. But I do spend a lot of time with this amazing team trying to figure out what unique we're going to say, what guests we're going to have on, spend a lot of time reading. So it's just a different schedule. But it's not as insane as it used to be. Well, so, speaking of the insane times, you were at the White House.

Yes. And what was that... What was that like? Where were you when you got the call? Yeah, where were you, first of all, when you got the call?

What was it like? Where were you when you got the call? I don't know. People always ask me that. I love that.

I love that. Go ahead. That was not your question. Well, we can do that. Where were you when you got the call that they were offering you that job?

Do you remember how that went down? Yeah. So I was a bridesmaid twice before. I was a bride, as they like to say. I was the runner for this job twice, which is relevant mainly because a lot of times people don't get jobs, and then sometimes it works out, right?

And that was a big lesson to me. But I was working on the transition. There's a presidential transition, right, between every president, and I just felt like I was working in the private sector. I was working for CNN, but I felt like I wanted to do something for government in that period of time post-Trump. I didn't know what it was, so I was working on that.

And Anita Dunn, who is still one of President Biden's closest advisors... I need a Dunn right now. Right, right. She's got a fabulous... Isn't it a great name?

I love that name. She called me and she said, would you be interested in being considered for this job? And I said, I'd be honored, but I really have to talk to my family about it, which sounds a little 1950s, but the truth is... No, it's all-consuming. Some people think, you're a woman, just do it.

I believe that, but I have two little kids. I still do. I had them then as well. Sure. And I wanted to factor that in and see how that would be.

But then, fast forward, she called me and said, can you go see the President-Elect tomorrow or the next day, or something? So that was all... It was kind of a little bit of a short journey. Can I ask you, was one of the considerations when you said I have to talk to my family... Obviously, you have to talk to your family, no matter who you are when you take a job like that, because it's so all-encompassing and it threatens to take a lot of your time and a lot of your energy and a lot of your focus.

And so you've got to say to your partner and your kids and whatever... And all of a sudden, it's a public... Well, I was going to get to that. So what I was saying was two-part, which is the first part is it's a big job, blah, blah, blah. We know that.

But also, did you sort of give you some pause, knowing that the environment had changed dramatically? In November 2016,? everything changed, the way that we approached and where all the norms were thrown out the window. And all of a sudden, everything is on the table or off the table, depending on how you look at it. And now we live in a different world.

that's very changed, that's without grace, that's without norms, that's without respect for it. All that kind of stuff is thrown out. Was that a major consideration? Sorry for the long question. Oh, no.

I know this is going to sound crazy, but no, I didn't think that that... I was living that in the sense that I was consuming all of this vitriol, just like everybody was. But I didn't apply it to myself. And actually, even when I started the job working as the press secretary, because it was the height of COVID and I didn't go out anywhere, I didn't do anything social. I just basically went to work, just like everybody.

I went to work. Everybody was tested. every day. I went home. And it wasn't until maybe three or four months in, I threw out the first pitch at a Nats game, which was amazing, but also I'd never thrown a baseball before.

No, I didn't. I didn't. I would totally. I was really... In the.

leading up to it, I thought to myself, okay, Anthony Fauci and other people really did not do a good job. And if that happened, I was already playing forward in my head what I would say about my failed pitch. But when I was there, which was kind of the first random social thing I did, my husband was with me, and this older man, I mean, it doesn't matter, but just a description of him, was following me around going, shame, shame, shame. And it was like, what? What?

So? I know, because he didn't like Joe Biden, maybe he didn't like the policies of the world I stood for. Who knows? But to answer your question, now, I'm giving you a long answer. No, I like it.

I didn't digest it in that way. And it really, but experiencing it and living it, and this happens to certainly people of both parties. But what I think has happened in more recent years is anyone who, and I don't know how it is for all of you. Do people hate you in a different way? Or do they just all love you?

How does it work? There's three categories. I just heard this recently. Yeah, it's mostly to Sean. Go ahead.

He gives a lot. I mean, Sean's answer on happiness, I feel like how could you not love him? I feel outraged about those people. Okay, continue. There's three groups of people.

For you, for us, for anybody that's in the public eye. The people who hate you will always hate you. The people who love you will always, oh, no, no, it's no matter what you do, the people who hate you will always hate you. No matter what you do, the people who love you will always love you. And no matter what you do, the people who don't care about you don't care about you, are indifferent.

Those are the three groups, right? Yeah, you're not turning anybody. There's not going to be anybody. You didn't get a lot of letters going, hey, you know, I really hated you a lot for the first three years. And you know what?

You said, yeah. I think I was wrong about it. It just doesn't exist in that way, which is absurd. Right, yeah. And we will be right back.

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One of the things that, I think, Will, you make fun of me for when I talk about getting news when you're in the White House versus getting, like, I like asking people. Jason thinks that there's a secret news. I've heard you talk about this. Wait, what is it? Well, you think there's a secret source of information, right?

No, there's not a secret, but I think you guys get. There's a news source for the news people. But I think you get information inside the White House earlier than, say, the press gets it. And not by a lot, but maybe, like, by a few minutes, maybe an hour at times. Yes?

Well, not exactly. Although, like, I do think you're onto a little bit of something, is that you are making a bunch of the news in the White House, right? So in that sense, yes. I mean, if you're sitting, which I did and many others did many times, in a situation room and you know that something is going to happen, you're going to reopen relations with Cuba, whatever you're going to do. You're going to go after the bad guys.

Or you'll get an incoming from the Defense Department saying we have just gotten rid of one of the ISIS leaders, or whatever. Yeah, exactly. So you guys get that information before the – Then you know it's coming, yes. Right, but now that you're in the media, do you wish that you still had some of those same sources or avenues? Yes, I mean, it's, you know, what do I – This is – I love my job.

I love doing a TV show. I get to talk about all sorts of different things and talk to all sorts of smart people here. But I do miss being able to just walk into Jake Sullivan's office or even the Oval Office and just say, what's the deal with this? And there's certainly been news that's happened that you think, what is the deal with this? I want to know what the deal is.

It doesn't make sense. With airline food, right? What's the deal with airline food? But I'll bet your sources as a journalist – Does that ever? – I'll bet your sources as a journalist are incredible, right?

Because you've got many, many high, high-level friends in the government still. Yeah, look, I mean, I think part of – Jen, Jen, Jen, sorry. I hate to interrupt you. I just want to make sure, is Scotty okay? Because I know he just got back from the gym and I can see him in the background.

Is he hot? Is he cool enough there for him? Do you need to – Scotty, are you okay from the gym? I said you like the air conditioning on when you come back. Are you –?

Yeah. He's okay. He's okay. Because you've got the blankets off your –. I'm so sorry.

The pashmina's off your shoulder, Sean. It's all good. I can hear Joy Reid, who I know has been on before. I can hear her in the hallway. She's three doors down.

No, she's literally walking by my office. Oh, you're at work right now? Tell her hello. Oh, yeah. This is my office.

That's so rad. She's on the phone. Yeah. So where is that? Washington or New York?

Yeah. Washington. Oh, God. I would dork out so much in those offices. Just come on down.

Joy, and I will take you around. We can take you on the Meet the Press site. Just – That'd be cool. It can be so nerdy and amazing. We're ready.

So now, Jen, I have something to say before. I want to get into how you started. Because now, since we're talking about the White House press room and everything like that, now, watching from home – first of all, you're on because – you were also on Jason's list, I think, because we love you. We admire you. I love you and your brain.

Thank you. Mutual. Yes. And whenever you would come out – You were on my list, too. It's cool.

It's cool. It's fine. Now, we know, but it's okay. I know the two who – Not only that, you were on three of my lists. Annette's much more of a tapper.

No, you were – It's fine. Loves the old tap scheme. I like Jake Tapper. He writes some good fiction books. It's all good.

We love Jake. You were on three of my lists. You were on three of my lists. Three of my lists. Two things.

One, at the end of the question, I want to know what the hell's in the binder. I think everyone wants to know what's in that binder, because it's so thick and you flip through it. and I want to know. A lot. What if it was just menus or something?

I just did it to scare people. I was like, I'll have the fried rice with the –. Whenever you would come out to speak at a press conference, I'd be watching on TV. I'd be like, I'd point to the TV. I'm like, yeah, what Jen said.

I don't have the gift, like you do, of just generally articulation and speaking in a succinct manner. You always made the best points. You gave the most clarity when explaining a position on a certain topic or issue. You have the gift of communicating in a way that makes it digestible to us. Thank you.

Always, at least to me, there was always such common sense to everything you said. Sounds like there's a but coming. I say that because it's – It's okay if there's a but. I'm ready for it. There's a but coming or something.

I'm asking because, like you said, for debate. It seems the whole thing, it's an interesting job as press secretary, whether it's Democratic president or Republican president or whatever. There's never going to be a situation where the press secretary goes, you know what? Great question. You got me.

There's always going to be this thing where you know what they're going to ask and they know you prepared the question. So what's going on here? Well, that's true. I mean, look, the truth is – You know what I mean? I think so.

I mean, Fox News, I called on them every day. They didn't exactly like the Biden administration as a network. They were really predictable because, if you watch Fox News every day, they kind of had a rotation of at the time when I was there.

The border is burning and hundreds of thousands of people are coming across the border. You know, COVID is a disaster. And, you know, there's a rotation of things. So it's somewhat predictable. It's going to be one of those.

Sorry, did we get an update on the caravan? Did it ever make it? Because, man, there were a lot of – It's really hard to make it if something is a fabrication. That is true. I had a friend.

I had a friend who's like these guys. Who was in the caravan? Yeah. Well, you would know. Is he a good friend?

He's staying with you now? He's a friend of mine. Again, I'm not going to name him. Comedian, sort of older guy, a little bit older than we are. And he's one of those people who made that turn into Fox News when he got to be about 60.

And it's a real bummer. And I see him and blah, blah, blah. And his whole thing was the caravan. I'm like, man, it's not real. I mean, go ahead.

Anyway, sorry. Yeah, well, because you're often in a situation where you're up there presenting facts, right? You're sitting there in the hub of information, what is real, what is not, from an international level to a domestic level. Right. And yet, they're sitting there hearing you relay that generously.

And then they say, yeah, no, I don't believe it. I don't know where you go from there. Well, I think you try to make a dent into it. I mean, you try to present the counter story or the facts to counter what the accusation is. But does that feel like dropping the bucket?

Does it feel deflating? Do you feel defeated sometimes? Not really. I mean, the days that were defeating were the days where you'd answer the same question 50 times. And there were days like that.

That's OK. I mean, the truth is the facts. questions were not the hardest ones. They're not the hardest ones in there. The hardest ones are the people who are the experienced in-depth print reporters who are going to actually ask you the very hard question.

that's hard to answer because they've been working on it. That you may not expect. That you may not expect, or you may see them in the room and you say, oh, shit, I need to like warm up before I get to that person. Because the point of my question was, or comment was just the fact that and Jay, I know you said you didn't get it. But what I was trying to say was it's not that surprising the questions.

you know that you're going to get that day. Sure. Right. So you're. That's true.

Part of the job is to prepare for these things that are the issues of the day. Yeah. And there's a significant prep before you go out there. Yes. I mean, that's why sometimes you guys are delayed.

Right. Because you're going to sit there with the man and say, well, what should our response be on X, Y or Z? Yeah. Sometimes. And exactly.

The man I love. I think he'd like to. You're talking about Joe Biden. Yeah. Referred to that way.

Dark Brandon. The man. The guy.

So the guy that I was in the job and I think anyone who's done the job, that job, sees their job as is speaking, of course, on behalf of the president. So you have to get feedback from that person to make sure you are projecting what they think, what their point of view is, what's actually going on. And sometimes, you know, the job. when I was doing it, I always felt like it was just you want to push as hard as you can push on the system internally, whether it's the policy experts or the president or others, to say we need more, we need more, we need to be able to say more, because you're kind of the bridge between the media, the press, and the president and the senior members of the team. So yeah, sometimes it was delayed because of that.

Is there a specific moment or question or any kind of thing that really sticks in your memory, where you're super, super close to saying, why don't you go fuck yourself? Oh, the people who know me well would say that, like there were times where I basically did without saying go fuck yourself.

So yes, of course. I mean, there were certainly moments where I lost kind of my steam when it was the 11th or 12th time of a question being asked and you just sort of, but then what happens? is that portion where you lose your steam or you don't give the full answer or you lose your temper. is what goes online, right? So you can be aware of that.

There was a particular, I don't remember who he's worked for, but he asked me about abortion all the time and there was a time where I basically ripped his head off. So, you know, there are times because you're human. I'm an Irish lass in my heart. I can't be level-headed at all moments, but you know, you try to, especially given the time that we are in, and we were in two years ago, the whole goal was to try to be calm and even keeled, because we needed to kind of take the venom out of the briefing room and return it to a place that was providing information to the public. And is the official angle that you're speaking on behalf of the president or you're speaking on behalf of the United States?

Because there's a difference there, right? That is true. That's a good, that's a very good question. Thank you. But kind of both.

Guys, did you get that? Did you hear what she? It's a bit. We're recording. Why do you think his nickname is Stopped Clock?

Yeah.

No, it's kind of. the answer is both, because sometimes the questions were about the president's view. He is the leader of the United States or the president's meetings, or his schedule or his conversation. And then there were sometimes questions both about the policy of the United States. And sometimes the president would say things that were at odds with the policy of the United States.

That's when things got a little tricky. Jen Psaki, I want to get to know. Jen Psaki. You were born in Stamford, Connecticut. Well, I was born in New York City.

Oh, I thought you were born in Stamford. It's all good. They're close by. When did you move to Stamford? I mean, my parents were living there when I was born, but I was born in New York City Hospital because they were living in New York City.

Well, now you're arguing. Refresh your Wikipedia page. Yeah, I don't know. I'm also not Polish. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Not Polish? No. Not Polish. That's on your Wiki page too? I think so.

No, I didn't say Polish. I didn't say it. Oh, I don't know. Maybe it's not on there anymore. I'm not sure.

Are you Greek and Irish? What else? I am Greek and Irish. Greek and Irish. Yeah, you're Gry-rish.

I've never heard that, but I like that. Gry-rish. What about your, so you have three sisters. You're oldest of three sisters. Your mom was a therapist.

Yeah, still is. Still is. What was that like? Oh, she still is. I love that.

I could use her. What was that like growing up? and did that kind of, you know, because therapists are very smart people. Is it, did it teach you to communicate better? Oh, maybe.

I mean, my mother didn't go to college until after I was born. And she didn't become a therapist until I was probably about nine or 10.. And she used to have appointments in our house at night, sometimes after we went to bed or later. But she always, it, never really, she was always around, which was great for me as a kid. And she was obviously doing school and stuff.

But she still is like this great advice giver. I mean, as a mom, she's somebody I call, and I think, what should I do about this? Oh, that's great. She's biased a little bit. So did she masquerade the therapy as parenting ever?

You know what I mean? Like, did she mix the two? Yes, she did. Although my sister and I still, my sister's two years, one of them's two years younger than me, and we still laugh about this time. I mean, my mom, you know, did therapy for families, troubled teens, their parents.

And when we were in high school, we came home from high school one day and my mother said, what is this? What is this? And she was holding something up and she thought we were big into drugs or something or doing tons of drugs. And I was like, mom, it's the drawstring to my shorts. You know, she has no, even though she dealt with adolescence and all sorts of things, she really was also kind of a, had a little blind spot around.

that sort of thing. Was dad around? Dad was around too, yep. My dad worked in New York. Good for you, an Irish dad that stayed.

Irish and Greek, Irish and Greek. Yeah, my dad is still, I mean, he's 80 now, but he, when I was growing up, it was like family vacations, where he knocked on your door at 6 a.m. and you went out for a, you know, four hour bike ride and then a six hour canoe. And then that was, maybe you could rest. after that.

There was an intensity. DeShawn's dad was 80.. Sorry, he was going 80 when he left the country. Going 80, yeah. Yeah.

You go, screw yourself, son.

And then I just had the black exhaust on my face. John stepped up to me when he was a kid, and it's been a source of a lot of laughs. One lot of laughs. And then, Jen, you married Greg. Yeah.

Right? Sweet Greg. Yeah. Sweet Greg, he is. Chief of staff to Congressman Joe Kennedy.

He was, yeah. And where did you two meet? And do you, same question about your mom now to you and your husband, Greg and your kids. Do you? now, is there debate that goes on in the house in a way that you, you know, because of your background?

Oh, between us, about politics? Yeah. Sometimes. I mean, we met at the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee, which is a very DC, nerdy, or hot, exactly. Hot AF, keep it going.

Political rom-com. He brought me some Grater's ice cream, if anybody knows of Grater's in Cincinnati. Yes, what? I have it in my fridge right now. Best ice cream on the planet.

Okay. Yeah, it was, that's where it all started. Rahm Emanuel takes credit for us getting together. So that's funny, because Greg traveled with him. But yeah, we dated long distance for a couple years, you know, all the things.

But still, married 13,. how long have you been married? 13 years, 13 years. Wow, that's great. And wait, how old are your kids?

They are five and almost eight, eight on Thursday. Wow. Oh, my God. That's cool, and you took your daughter to the Taylor Swift concert, I saw on Instagram. I did, I did.

Was that the greatest thing ever? I'm about to do the same thing. It's a great show. How old, how old, I should know this. I've got a 16 and an 11, two girls.

And do they know they're going? Yeah, yeah, and they're fired up. And I'm kind of fired up. We've got a mutual friend, Willie, that said that it's the greatest concert he's ever been to. Yeah.

And he's our age, so he's been to a lot of shows and been to a lot of great shows. And I don't think he was exaggerating. well, right? I mean, that sounded pretty sincere. And so I'm really looking forward to seeing it.

Oh yeah, yeah, he loved it. Yeah, loved it. And when you say fired up, Jay, you mean you're firing up the chopper to land at SoFi because you don't like to deal with traffic. I don't like traffic. Not too much.

I'm just going to hover, actually. I'm going to lower the kids down, but I'm going to stay up top. Oh, there it is. Oh boy. Oh, see?

Yeah, we're holding up ice cream to the camera. It's so good. It's really good. I love it. Sean, by the way, you've got a pint of ice cream in the house.

Jen, I'm so sorry. If you looked in Sean's freezer, you'd see he's like ice cream from Ohio. We got the ice cream from Indiana. We got, he's got ice cream from every state. It's okay, it's okay.

I think he's a Gators fan, so there you go. There it is. I like it. We'll be right back.

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And our show is part true crime, part spooky, and part comedy. The stories we cover are well-researched. He claimed and confessed to officially killing up to 28 people. With a touch of humor. I'd just like to go ahead and say that if there's no band called Malevolent Deity, that is pretty great.

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And back to the show. Jen, what's going on with the Hollywood Correspondents, or not Hollywood Correspondents, what's it called, the something Correspondents Center? The White House Correspondents Center. The White House Correspondents, that's right. Now, I went there once and I really- We were there.

Right, yeah, we loved it. But has it taken, it's taken a hit lately, right? Well, probably because of the last administration, no one really wanted to go. But like, can we get that back up and running and make it kind of like- Make it cool again? Wait, does it not happen anymore?

I mean, it does, but I want to go back. I think it can come back. I mean, I'm gonna put some responsibility on all of you, because in order for it to be fun, you've got to bring fun people who are not political. Well, why don't you invite us? You can- You're invited.

Why don't you have the soccer table? Do you all want to come with NBC and MSNBC next year? Yeah, of course we do. Yes, we'd love that. Of course we do.

Let's do it. Well, what about? the three of us will host it, right? Yeah, how about that? Oh, together.

Oh, you'd be so good. Now, the White House Correspondents Association determines who they're gonna ask to invite to speak, but I can't put in a good word for that. No, Peter Doocy's not gonna ask us. You'd be good. There's better ones than us.

The Doocy family doesn't want us to do it. No. I will say, one, I actually have a good relationship with Peter Doocy, but also, this year, it was the most, normal's not a good way of describing it, because it's sort of a weird dinner, but people of all parties, different backgrounds, doing different things, all interacting. That's how it always used to be, and it kind of had a gap when it wasn't like that. So this year it felt like that, which was kind of nice.

And when is it? traditionally? I forget. End of April. Or, well, sometimes May, but usually end of April.

Okay. I want to know, original career aspirations, did you always, what were you- Jay, sorry, Sean. Jay, how many gummies before the White House correspondents? Oh, boy, I'll be really fired up for that one. Oh, boy.

Yeah, and we're talking about vitamin gummies, right? Yes, of course. Of course. Obviously. Obvi.

Sean, go for Sean. Original career aspirations, earliest memory, like the kind of career you wanted, like. was this always your trajectory, where you were like-? No, I have never had a five-year plan. I certainly didn't.

when I was five. I still don't. I love it. I did, remember 2020 with Barbara Walters and Hugh Downs? I still remember the music.

And when I was a little kid, I just thought that show was great, which is kind of a weird thing. I did too. It's really exposing my nerdy side, which is kind of obvious, but- It was like more than just murder and mayhem, that show. It was like, it was different topics. Totally.

Like, yeah. Yeah, it was good storytelling. I mean, I wouldn't have defined it that way, but I liked that. I did say at some point that when Barbara Walters was ready to retire, or maybe I said something more heartless, like when she died when I was little, because you know you're insensitive as a little kid, that I wanted her job, because it seemed fun. And it seemed like she was telling a story.

That's not insensitive. No, it's just, we're all gonna die. If she said it at her funeral, that would be- That would be. And, as, you know, seven, five, six, seven, eight year olds, you're a little, you know, you're funny, but you're a little off. Well, is that, now?

you say you don't have a five-year plan, but would that, is that a natural progression of sort of the lane you're in now, as far as media goes? I mean, I really, the show's about three months old, four months old now, and- It's so good. Thank you very much. Yeah, you're doing such a great job. You're awesome.

You know, every week, we just try to think of who we want to know more about, right? And try to have them on as a guest, and what we want to know more about. And then I usually try to spend a couple hours with somebody so that we can do a piece about them. that isn't just about the news of the day, but who are they, and what are they thinking about? And actually, it's a show I think I would want to watch, but I always thought about what I wanted people to come away with, right?

And I want them to feel like they're learning something about, even about someone, something they didn't know. Maybe it's somebody they didn't think they agreed with, or whatever. You know what I feel I could probably watch a multi-episode series on. is Ron Klain. I bet he could fill a bunch of episodes.

Oh my, I would like to do a bunch of episodes on Ron Klain. He is just such- Who is that? He was the chief- Just go ahead. Yeah, go ahead. No, go ahead.

You know this. He was the chief of staff, right? Biden's first chief of staff. He's now- Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. No longer, right?

Where did he go? He was a fan of Smartless, I heard. Oh, yeah. I've never talked to him, but I bet he is. And he was hugely instrumental in fixing our COVID situation before he became chief of staff, correct?

Yeah, well- This was in the- Transition and figuring out. Yeah, I mean, he was one of the smartest people I've ever met, and he is a person who doesn't really sleep. And so one of those people who you go to a meeting with and you think, I'm so prepared. I'm ready for all the things. And then he's 400 steps ahead of you.

Where'd he go now? What's he like? Okay. Yeah, he's a lot better now. It's a huge asset we've lost, damn it.

Yeah, I know. All right. How do you, were you privy to confidential information in the White House? Yeah. Like, but like the stuff that the president knows?

How about everything, Sean? Sorry, sorry, he's trying to work his way towards aliens and UFOs. Oh, a thousand percent, right? Just fucking say it. A thousand percent.

I know, of course, I knew it, I knew it. I could smell it. That was quite a flirtation. I was like, where are we going with this? Do you wanna know if I knew who the bad guys were and who should be killed?

Sean, just fucking ask her about the fucking UFOs. You know, I will say, I had a lot of access to classified information, but there's this thing called need to know. And if you don't need to know, you don't necessarily have access to it. And I wasn't on kind of the alien portfolio, UFOs. That wasn't in my group.

Do you have any boxes in your bathroom at home? I don't, I don't. I don't have boxes in my bathroom. What can we do about the, what seems to be a very lightweight, cheesy, wood, blue painted sliding door there for the press room. I'd like, I'd like a switch.

Let's switch out something about it. Let's put a glossy blue on it. When you come and you do your tour of Meet the Press and the NBC and MSNBC offices here, we'll take you to, have you been to the briefing room? You've seen it, right? Have you been in there?

At the White House? Yeah. Yes. Okay. It's very sad in there.

I know. For these reporters and journalists who are doing amazing work. I mean, it's borderline disgusting, actually, where they, where they work and they do their work. So it needs a whole reboot. That little pocket door.

It's so sad, that little pocket door. The pocket door? I mean, yeah. The little blue one, yeah. I know.

Now, right behind that, right behind that, there seems to be a lot of action. right behind that. What do we do? So you, if you walk out of the, out of the briefing room, back into the White House, what, how far are you from the Oval Office, from there? Or is there like a press room right there?

You, there's a, there's the lower, what's called the lower press office, where a lot of the spokespeople sit and journalists can come in and out. Then, if you walk up a hallway, if you go to the right, and then one more left, you're right at the Oval Office. If you go to the left, you're in the Rose Garden. Yeah, it's pretty small, right? Yeah, the whole White House is not big.

It's very small. I do have a funny story about the pocket door. Can I tell you? Oh, please. The pocket door, in my first year working for Barack Obama, Bill Clinton came to visit and was meeting with him, and they were having this private meeting.

So a lot of the staff were over celebrating Christmas and holidays. they celebrate. And only one or two, maybe 22 or 23 year olds, were staffing the press office in case anyone needed anything. And President Obama, President Clinton came down and were trying to open that pocket door, which locks. Like Jason on the airplane in the dock.

Oh, I don't, there you go. They were trying to open it because, and the 23 or 24 year old said, can I, can I help you with anything? And they said, we have some things we want to say and share with the press. Now, the reason this is funny, a number of reasons, but one of them is, I think they were envisioning that anytime you open that door, there's a bunch of reporters like sitting, waiting. And really a lot of them were at the holiday party and other things.

So they had to go, run around and say to the reporters, get in your seats, get a pen, put shoes on, come back to the briefing room because two presidents are coming in. Wow. The pocket door is some history. I don't know if you want to get rid of it. And then you've got, and then you've got like those, those, those stables outside, right?

Where, where the, where the reporters will do their hits from outside, there along the driveway, right? Pebble beach is what it's called. Yeah. Pebble beach. Why do they call it?

that? I'm not even sure, but it's kind of a row of cameras. So you can, they have the backdrop of the white house. Yeah. They're like individual little sort of cordoned off tents, right?

It's kind of, it's like a, it's like a swanky hotel pool where you got a bunch of cabanas. Something like that. I don't know if it's a swing. Yes. Or they stand on boxes in the freezing cold when it's raining, and tell you what's happening at the white house or something.

Jen, Jen, what's your biggest regret? Can I call you Jen? What else would you call me? I don't know. What's your biggest, what's your biggest, I guess, Jennifer, what's your biggest regret or do you have any that you can share with us, that you were like, oh, I wish I had done this or said this or responded this way.

Do you have? Every day, every day I did that job. Every day I do a show. now. Every time I end it and I say, I wish I would have said this.

I wish I said, some are bigger than others. No, but when you're, and when you're working on a show and we we've had that all, as, as performers and actors and stuff, you have those days where you go, oh, I wish that, but, but I mean more like because of what you were doing when you were working in government and, and, and the stakes are so much higher than as you now see, now that you're doing TV, you see how low the stakes really are. Do you, do you, when you're actually, you know, helping to what you're doing is part of shaping policy and doing all that kind of stuff. Did you have any regrets going like, I wish that had gone this way or something like that? Yeah.

Yes. Did you, again, you don't have to get specific, but you can just. Oh, no. I mean, one, I didn't say there was, the president still had confidence in the FBI director. on my first day.

By my first day, I already had a regret. I kind of made fun of the space force unintentionally, cause it has a funny name, but it has an important job. Yeah. Cause it's a clown show. The name is absurd, but, like they do, an important job.

Now, to the credit of the guy who was running it, he sent me a note and even a pin. It was very nice. But my biggest one is, is probably at the height of COVID. when we were, there was a demand for, for tests and there was a shortage of tests. And people ask me a hundred questions about this every day.

And this was one of those moments of exasperation where it was like the 19th question about it. And I said, what do you want us to do? Send them to every American. And that's not actually what we ended up doing, because it wouldn't have, it would have been a waste, but we did end up doing a website where people could order tests. Right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And either way, it was just flippant and insensitive and wasn't what I meant at the time. It was just like, I was like, I'm tired of answering this question. But yes, I wish that, that would have gone differently. But there's plenty of times.

There's so many things I wish Sean had done differently. And he sends them to me. I wish he had a different flavor of graders, but that's for another time. Yeah, no, I love that. Now, Jen, this, we can cut this question or whatever you want, but it's on my list.

It's something that I wanted to ask you about. We touched on it before, about the massive, the feeling, the sense of division in this country. that kind of has never been here before. And being on now both sides, as the press secretary and now having your own show, do you think the press is? to, what level of blame, if any, is the press to about the division?

Do you think they use too many superlatives and try to draw on these, kind of, make the biggest wave out of this story and that story just to get viewers? Or do you think the opposite, and the press is just doing their job and they're doing a great job? I mean, from having been on both sides of it, but even, I think the majority of press are doing a good job, and not just doing a good job, but doing, kind of following their role, which is to kind of get to the bottom of the truth of things, right? I think the majority of reporters, and even though I've only been on this side for not that long, I've worked with reporters and journalists and media for decades, right? So that has always been my belief.

There are bad actors and people who do not behave that way and do not, and share misinformation. I've been accused of being. You correct yourself pretty quickly, even when you spread moments, you have moments. But even, so there are bad actors who spread disinfo, who spread inaccurate information, who escalate things. A lesser violation, I would say, are people who get too freak out about everything, which also is not healthy.

Everything is not a crisis. And if you keep projecting everything as a crisis, people are gonna turn off the TV and stop reading the newspaper. So you can't tell everybody to freak out about everything. I mean, because, and we even sometimes do segments we call Don't Freak Out, because otherwise, your nerves are so frayed and you just, it's a little boy who cried wolf. You don't know when it is actually something that is a crisis and something we should be worried about and not.

But there are some people, though, I have over 2,000 employees in Minnesota who all need pillows and I'm not freaking out about anything, Jen. That's pretty good, Willie. That is good. That is pretty good. That's pretty good, you know.

That is good. You know, I see Jen Psaki on with a bunch of those liberal-leaning Hollywood elite on the podcast, you know.

What's your favorite little piece of memorabilia that you still have from the White House? Oh, my God. Either official or that. maybe no one knows that you've taken. I'm trying to think of what I've taken.

Yeah, you can tell us, you can tell us. What have I taken from the White House? I didn't really take much. I do have my briefing book.

I don't know that. that's a real White House memorabilia. It's like. from my experience. I didn't really take anything off the walls, I would say, because that would be bad.

What's stealing? What's stealing? Did your office have windows? Yeah. Your office did have windows.

Yeah. There are many that don't, right? Yes. Were you in the executive building? No, I was in the West Wing.

Oh, you were? Yeah. Because you love that show. Why did I say that? Of course you were.

Oh, I do. I do love, actually, I did not watch the West Wing when it came out. I did watch the whole entire series in 2012, after I left the Obama White House, and it made me go back to government. So I was like a late bloomer of the West Wing, but it brought me back into government. I need to watch it.

I'm such a big fan. You've never watched it? I've never seen it either. You probably love it. It's such a good show.

So your show, is it complicated? Because I know it's complicated. on the nighttime talk shows about booking guests. There's, you know, well, you can't do this show after this show, or you gotta leave a couple of months. Oh, yeah, there's some of that.

Yeah, I'll bet. And I don't want to get you in trouble or make you uncomfortable, but that is part of the job is trying to negotiate the guests, right? Because certain shows want certain guests, and then you have to kind of wait your turn, or there's a hierarchy, yeah? I'll bet. Well, I don't know if it's a hierarchy as much as you do have to do legwork, reaching out to people and engaging with them about being on your show, and why, you know, you never tell them, like, this is what I'm gonna ask you, or I won't ask you this, but, you know, sometimes I think everybody has different pitches about the experience of their show.

So for me, I would tell people, we're gonna give you more time. We wanna explore more than just the news of the day. I wanna go take a walk with you or cook with you or run with you or whatever, which is a little bit different than other shows. My show's also newer, so some other shows are like, I've been around for a long time, and my viewership is whatever it is. Right.

Everybody has different pitches, but you gotta do some legwork on it and do your homework. I mean, I'm always, because I've been all sides of the pitches of things, I always laugh. I mean, I can't even imagine the number of pitches you all get, for, I don't even know, but people send me emails to pitch being on a show that has, it's like, have you ever watched the show? I mean, it hasn't been around that long, but they're like things that have nothing to do with what we do. Well, it's them wanting to be on your show.

Right, and so, you know, it's from well-meaning PR people. That's completely fine. I respect the profession, but what I've learned is you really have to do the homework and read the 20 articles about a person to say, I thought it was so interesting about this or that, or what have you. So, yeah, you gotta do, you gotta do. But, you know, of course, there's like a little competition about who has who and all that kind of stuff.

Right, but if somebody likes to say, Andrew Weissman, who's like on salary, basically, like, is he told what shows to do or does he get to pick which shows he does? He gets to pick which shows he does, but if people- Because I could watch him all day. Oh, he's the best, isn't he? And you do, and you do. And he has a dog named Ennis.

I've been to his apartment. We did a whole segment at his apartment. That apartment just shoots incredibly. Out of this world. The room raider must be out of their mind.

He always scores highly with room raider. He's got art you can't even see in the apartment. I know, he's got the metal staircase. You know you've got good art. if you're not showing it, you know what I'm saying?

Right, I mean, no, he picks, but people book people up. They kind of lock them in if they know, because the legal story is going to be big for a while, it seems, that's my most diplomatic way of saying it. Do you get to decide your fill-in when you go on vacation? You get to decide who takes over for you. or does that come from the high up?

Yeah, I think so. I think you kind of have a conversation. I haven't missed a show yet, so I don't know yet. Yeah. All right.

Well, you can go on for an Oscar for me. Listen, Jen Psaki, you've taken up way too much of your time. We love you. I've got like two minutes, damn it. I want to leave with this, Jen, because I really mean it.

I want to say thank you for always imbuing the idea and the sense that every human being should be treated equal. And you've always said versions of that throughout your entire career. I don't understand who wouldn't be for that idea that all human beings should be created equal, but so thank you for always doing that. You've always seemed to be a very decent person. Thank you.

I believe that. I mean, in a lot of ways, I don't see myself as a partisan or as a Democrat, even though I've worked in Democratic parties. I see myself as somebody who believes in kind of morally what is right and not justifying discrimination. And that is what gets me. It came across.

Well, you're very exciting to listen to and to watch because of your intellect,

some people can have an intellect, but they're kind of old and stodgy. There's a current, there's a relevance to your sensibility about things and your way in which that you articulate. that is always exciting to listen to. Thank you. Thank you so much.

So great to meet you. Huge fan. Happy third birthday. Thank you. And good luck with the show.

We'll keep watching. Thank you so much. Thanks, Jen. Bye.

What about that, Gen Saki? Gen Saki, Gen Saki. I love Gen Saki. Anybody with a silent P. Especially with, she, should open a sushi place, right?

Gen Saki. I mean, yeah, yeah, exactly. I saw that coming from a mile away. And Jay, she was on your list for a while, right? She was, yeah, but you know, I mean, I've got a lot of, I don't push for the political folks, cause I know we try not to get too political on this show, but man, I've got a long list of folks.

Maybe I should, I should start a different podcast. One on the side, right?

But yeah, I'm fascinated with all that political stuff, especially now. I just, and I love the way she said, Sean, in sort of in answering your question at the end, when you were talking about, just about this idea that she's not trying to be one way or the other. Like, in fact, if anything, she just wants to come across as very bi-partisan. Oh, nice, bi. She works for Joe Biden, or used to.

Joe Biden, don't harmonize. You can't harmonize the bi.

Smartless is 100% organic and artisanally handcrafted by Bennett Barbaco, Michael Grant Terry and Rob Armgirf.

This episode was recorded on July 11th.

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