#2034 - Jeremy Jones

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Not much, not much. We finally did this. Yeah, trying to run out.

Yeah, man, playing you is a very humbling experience. I should tell everybody, Jeremy Jones, professional pool player, the team captain of the Moscone Cup, which is the most prestigious international team tournament in all the world of pool. But what I really enjoyed about talking with you for the last couple of days is you're a very smart guy, very interesting guy, who has a lot of interests in all kinds of different things. You're a very fascinating guy. That's why you're so good at commentary.

Yeah, I guess. so. Maybe just growing up watching all that stuff, and I think my parents, you know, they had pretty vast interest, even though maybe didn't afford it all the time to be able to, you know, kind of go with it. But yeah, number five of six kids, you learn a lot of stuff.

Well, it's just always been fascinating to me, the people that are really good at pool are some of the fucking smartest people I've ever met in my life. They just got that bug. They got that bug to chase this one thing, geometry and pockets and balls and collisions, and they got that bug to chase it. But some of the best players that I've talked to, they're some of the smartest people I've ever met.

Oh, absolutely. I mean, that just tells you about the game, right? How much there is to it. And yeah, I mean, it's just, it grabs you. And, you know, if you're watching, paying attention to what goes on, it's like hardly ever the same thing.

Yeah.

You know, you don't realize how much control you have. I thought pool was kind of like a game you played waiting on a bowling alley lane, you know, prior to playing it. Right. I didn't know you could play it. well.

When you, how old were you when you first started playing?

Really playing 17.. I was 17 years old. Yeah, I started late.

I started really late. I was 25, I think. Somewhere around 24, 24 or 25.. Yeah.

Yeah. I worked two jobs, and one of them, we'd, you know, have a few beers on the weekends at a pizza restaurant, play poker with our money, our tip money. And one of the guys would go to the game room and play pool. And he took me down there one day and kind of hustled me a little bit. You know, we kind of knew each other like that.

Wow. It's a game that just sucks you in. I remember I used to go and play with my friend John, and we would go to this place, Executive Billiards in White Plains. And when we got there, you know, it was an interesting time because there was a lot of gambling going on in that place. And the guy, the owner was a wild man.

Yeah, I think the culture of it is a big, big part of it. I mean, just being able to gamble and not take it personal. Right. You know, like, you hate the casino when you go lose, right? Right.

Yeah.

That, to me, was pretty fascinating overall, you know.

There's a culture that encourages more gambling, and the best way to encourage more gambling is to not have fisticuffs every time somebody loses. Like, some guys, just get too, like, it's a natural feeling. The guy just beat you. You feel, but you're angry at him. But really, you should be angry at yourself.

Yeah, absolutely, yeah.

And it's just, that's what you're both trying to do. It's an agreement. Like, you figure it out.

Yeah, I mean, you know, you beat a guy, you don't bust his chops too often, right? You let him cool off, and then it all is good, but.

Everybody goes back to, like, McCready's character in The Color of Money, which is, apparently, from what everybody tells me from those days, really, McCready was probably, like, wilder than that.

No, I think I've sweated it, 100%. Really? Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I was in with a player playing, Keith, and I think they played something like four days or five days, with, like, an eight-hour break or 10-hour break in the middle. Wow.

Those are the craziest legendary sessions, when guys just gambled for three straight days in a row. And people think it's bullshit, but that's part of the thing about pool and gambling is nobody wants to quit.

Oh, no, no.

You don't quit when you're up, and if you're down and you've still got some fight left in you, this guy might get tired.

Or money.

Yeah, right.

You know, I've seen him go through three or four stakehorses in a night.

Yeah.

But, I mean, I think you and I were talking about it earlier, it's so much different these days. When I went to the pool room, I was fully rested, like, 10, 12 hours, because I knew I'm there to beat four or five guys, I'm going to be there 20, 30 hours. Wow. Yeah, I mean, you know, that's what you want. You want to put the parlay on them, you know.

That's a fascinating way to live your life. It really is. I mean, out of all of the things, if you talk about, like, American folklore, just, like, American culture, all the poetic characters,

Yeah, there's lots of sayings. I think it's the hard way to make an easy living is one of them, right? But, I mean, you know, I was lucky, I was around some of the old school ones as well. And the charisma is true, you know. Like, if you see genuine charisma, I mean, it's a real thing.

Yeah.

And that's what the old guys had. The young guys have it too, but it's just a little different.

Well, everyone seems, it's interesting, because it seems like pool is just like every other thing, in that the guys today are as good, if not better, than anybody that's ever existed.

Oh, absolutely. There's more of them. That's the problem. There's so many of them. Yeah, exactly.

I mean, Europe, Asia, you know, guys from Taiwan, guys from China, guys from Japan, guys from Spain. It's like, whoa.

Killers. The most global sport there is, I think.

It's amazing how much talent there is out there. Like, I'm just so impressed with what the level is now. Because if you, like, no disrespect to anybody who played back in the day, but if you go back and you watch a tournament from, like, the 80s versus, you watch how these guys are playing now, it's almost like it's a completely different game.

Yeah.

Different style, rather.

Yeah, I think the equipment allows for that too, you know what I mean? Yeah. And the training. I mean, these guys, you know, you had Federer-Gorst. I'm sure you all talked about his regimen, right?

He's my perfect example. He's almost playing, like, a totally different style of pool. Like, his style of pool is, like, it's so perfect. Like, his position, the way he stands with his body, how rigid it is. It's like people that don't understand, that are just seeing a guy, just make something look easy.

Oh, absolutely. It's like artwork. Yeah. He's kind of like, you know, back in the day you'd kind of, you know, I used to say to a lot of guys I'd go on the road, hey, if they don't beat me in the first couple hours, we're all right, you know what I mean? Because I'd get better and better and better.

Well, he's so well trained in terms of his fundamentals, and it's all so repeatable. And I think that that exists in martial arts. It exists in archery. And it really exists in pool. If you have really good fundamentals, like, that's why a lot of those snooker guys, really excel when they try to learn pool.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, they learn some things as they come over.

They hate. when you say snooker, though, right? Don't, they give you a hard time? It's snooker.

Snooker, yeah.

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I still don't know why a bank is called a double. in Snooker. Just a one-rail bank is called a double, so there's a few of them that I'm not really sure about.

That's an interesting game, too.

Oh, it's a great game, yeah. I think nine ball's a little better. looking for today's people. You know what I mean? Snooker has done really well, and it's got a great following, and it should, but I don't know.

There's nothing like breaking and running down.

Yeah, the different balls. You feel a little more aggression, I think. Which, in sports, you usually want to feel that aggression, right?

And if you fuck up and leave the nine in front of the hole, it's an easy victory for your opponent. There's something beautiful about luck, the luck aspect in nine ball. Balls bounce all over the place, and when you're down, and then all of a sudden, boom. The guy shits a nine ball in, and you're like, God damn it.

And you can change it around, you know what I mean? You can turn things around.

It's such an exciting game, and it never stops being exciting. When it's played at a good level, it just never stops being exciting. It's one of the most engaging physical games that I've ever participated in.

Yeah, and you would think for a non-contact sport, the adrenaline gets way up there. I know. I mean, it's pretty intense.

They've done heart rate monitors on guys, right?

Oh, yeah.

What's like the highest. anybody got jacked?

Oh, my God. You know, a guy you know, a couple years ago, Max Eberle was trying to make the team, so we traveled to Moscow, actually, to play the Russian team. And we put him on there. I think it was Garmin that was the sponsor or whatever. I mean, some guys were 130, 125..

Max has picture-perfect fundamentals.

Yeah, yeah, real straight stroke, you know, been around a long time, and it was a pretty fun experience for Max. I was happy to see it.

So when you were a kid, and so you start off working in this game room and you learn how to play pool, then, like how long before you're just all in with pool, like all day long?

Oh, it didn't take long at all. And I was kind of lucky, a little unlucky, but lucky at the same time, where my parents actually split up for like 12, 13 months, right? So during this time, I live with my mom, and there's no chance I would have ever been a pool player if they didn't split up for that little period of time, right? So my dad just wouldn't have allowed it. And so they got back together, and then I'm graduating high school, getting out of school, so it wasn't really up to him.

Yeah, yeah. So what did you do and how did you do it?

Okay, the road trip? Yes. Okay, so me and my high school buddy, Doug Donovan, we went and played a lot of pool together. We decided we were going to do this. And his was more of an experiment kind of thing.

And how good of a player were you fresh out of high school?

Well, you know, a year, and I was real lucky. I had some really good players just kind of like come to the pool room and played me pool and do things with me and show me things. And I was a pretty good athlete anyway, so I kind of picked up things quick.

Explain a gaff game to the uninitiated.

So a gaff game is kind of, like, you know, three card, right, the shell game, any of those games. You know, you're going to lose, and even if you're going to pick the right one, they start the song and dance again. That's how the shell game goes, right? So it's basically a game that you're just not going to win at.

Give me an example.

It sounds good, kind of like, oh, like. this might sound good to you, but you know better now.

Like eight ball, taking balls off.

That kind of thing. Or say we're playing nine ball, right? And I might say to you, Joe, all you got to do is drive a ball to the rail. But I get break ball in hand playing nine ball. You understand?

That's an interesting game to play with someone who can't play because that would get them thinking, I can do that.

Or naive pool rooms. Like if there's not any pool rooms with a good player, that just really ain't running out. I mean, that just sounds like the world. Right. You know what I mean?

Exactly.

I can drive one to a rail, that's for sure. But, you know.

But the thing is, like practicing with you today, probably not. Especially if it's a bucket, a large pocketed table, you run out like a champion, man. It's amazing. I know you're not playing professionally as much anymore, but, damn, that was really impressive.

Yeah, I've been here a few days. I just got to play a little pool here in Austin already, so that's good. Shout out to Skinny Bob's. Yeah, Skinny Bob's.

That's a great spot.

Yeah, the 50th going on, the longest running tournament in the country.

I went there last year to sweat it. I might try to make it there this year too. It's fun, man. I love watching high-level pool. It's just, and especially, it's one of those things that I always said, it's like an art form that only the people that do it appreciate.

Yeah, and when you really get into it, you see different strikers. You know what I mean? The strokes are different. You know what I mean? A little bit.

Yeah. No, it's just an interesting thing that there's different approaches. Some guys have, like, thick shafts. Some guys have little, tiny shafts.

And body types.

Yeah.

Right? We're talking about Kachi, unfortunately, what happened to him recently, but this guy looks like built like Gronk, almost, not quite as muscle as Gronk. He's a big dude. Yeah, huge. And then you got, what, Little Coe, who's one of your favorites, that you said.

Yeah, I love the Coe brothers.

90 pounds soaking wet, maybe.

Yeah, Ko-Ping Chung and Ko-Ping Yee are two of my favorite guys to watch, because the way they play is so smooth. It's just so controlled. It seems like he's never hitting the ball at different speeds. He's just hitting it at different places on the ball, unless it's a very soft shot. Everything is just, like, this beautiful controlled stroke.

Yeah, everything looks medium, right? Everything looks, like, right in the middle.

I forget what match I was watching recently, but he broke around the first five racks and it was just, like, exquisite. Oh, yeah.

Little one? The little one?

No, that was the big one.

Oh, Ko-Ping Yee.

Yeah.

But they're both assassins, right? There's a third one, you know. I heard. Yeah.

I haven't seen that guy play.

Yeah, he's got a lot of talent. He's way tall compared to the other two. Oh, really? So, it's almost like when I watch him, he's still kind of getting his coordination as a tall man, because he's pretty young, you know. So, yeah, but he's got a lot of game as well.

There's something about, you know, watching these guys from the time that they're really young. Like, some guys, get so good, so quick. Like, Wu Cha Ching, you know, that dude who won the world championships at, what, 16 years old?

Yeah, the nine ball and then, later in the year, the eight ball as well.

Insane. At 16. Oh, yeah.

I was there when he won the nine ball. He was, like, fearless. Well, he manhandled the whole tournament. Yeah. At 16..

Yeah, he was an interesting guy, too, because he played with a heavy Southwest, right?

Yeah, well, the Chinese Taipei, former Taiwanese, right? That's a big common cue. for them is the Southwest. Maybe more on Southwest and Chinese Taipei than anywhere in the world.

Well, that's. what's interesting, too, is that everybody has, like, a different philosophy on whether a cue should be heavy or a cue should be light. But what's fascinating, you know, to the people that don't know what the fuck we're talking about, what's so fascinating about it is you're trying to apply a certain amount of pressure to this thing, that you're holding in your hand, that you drive into a cue ball to get the proper amount of revolutions, and you're doing it across a whole table. So it's like a nine-foot canvas. And when the ball goes three rails and comes all the way back and sits perfect for a position on the next ball, it's one of the most beautiful things in life.

Oh, yeah. People don't realize the cue ball curves all over the place. You know what a masse is, right? But, like, every shot, it curves.

So how much knowledge did you have when you were out there hustling, when you were 17?? Did you know how to make a good game? Did you just wing it just for experience?

No, I mean, you know, Baytown, where I'm from, east side of Houston, so, you know, I stayed in Baytown, that area, for the first six, eight months. I played, because everyone said, don't go to Houston, you know, too many great players. So I started going there, but I started learning real quick, like, you know, you're trying to hang on to your bankroll, you learn a little quicker.

So you were telling me, we were talking about earlier, that there's parts of the country that are not good to go to for gambling.

Back in the day, at least.

Back in the day, but the south is overwhelmingly good to go to for gambling.

Oh, yeah, absolutely. It's just like tournaments with Calcuttas or auctions. You know, a good auction in New York, if they even have, one, might be like 5,000 in there, you know, where Buffalo's, I think they had, I don't know, 320,000 or something like that in May. And that's in New Orleans.

Are we going to get in trouble with the IRS because of this conversation?

Well, no, it's legal in Louisiana. So they don't take anything out of the purse or anything, so there's. no, you know what I mean.

So, for people that don't know what a Calcutta is, so if Jeremy was in a tournament, you could actually buy him in the tournament, and you're gambling against all the other people that are picking different players.

Yeah, they auction everyone off on a side pot. Exactly, yeah.

And if there's a lot of gamblers, it can get pretty high, and it gets fun.

Yeah, like at, you know, like at your country club, like a tournament, like your club tournament or whatever, they usually do a Calcutta for each team. Yeah, yeah, they do that in golf a lot.

Yeah, so when you were first, like, just trying to go out and get games, you're just calling people on the yellow pages, showing up at places, and how do you know your speed in comparison to, like, are you just guessing?

A little.

Because this is, like, your first experience, is, like, traveling.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, you know, you hear about things, right? You get information from people. as you go on. You start to know people, you know, oh, you meet this guy in this area, that guy in that area.

You could be a hustler.

Yeah, yeah, but immediately went away from that. A lot better just to go in and say, hey, we like to play. You know, and they usually get one of their better players. And you're hitting every little town.

Yeah.

You know what I mean? So you're betting on yourself a little more often, and it's easy to tell pretty quickly, unless you catch one of them. smart guys that know how to stall, you know, that are hustling you. You know what I mean? Right.

Did you encounter a lot of those?

A lot of attempts, you know, but normally the hustler would come up asking for a big spot. You know, the smart hustler was the one that could come in and start playing even and then figure it out from there. You know, it's just a little easier to get down. And I knew a lot of those guys that, you know, were there to win.

Now, when you would go to a new pool room, would you try to make a friend and maybe give them a gapper if he steered you in the right direction?

Yeah, that was kind of touchy. I mean, you might learn quickly that if—.

Double steer.

The same guy that's going to give you information is probably talking to someone else too, you know, kind of thing. Yeah. So, you know, best off to be able to evaluate a room pretty quickly, and it's amazing from coast to coast how common people are in a pool room.

And when you were doing this, did you realize, like, how wild it is to be a young, free man just traveling the country gambling on pool? Did you realize, like, how wild that is?

Absolutely. I got reminded of it a lot of times, just because you get stuck in situations and so you get to know people, and they kind of remind you of it. You know, we were in Chattanooga one time. We were stuck for, like, two weeks because it was the blizzard of 91.. I don't know if you remember.

Yeah, it's romantic. Yeah. It's like it really is. I mean, how many movies are there about pool hustlers or that type of person who's just living this? I mean, that's what was so attractive to me.

Yeah, they're comfortable, you know what I mean?

And they were just around these people, and every day would be the same kind of conversations. Like, this guy could get the A. Oh, yeah. And it was always like, you don't have heart.

You ain't gambling.

Well, that was New York, right? Oh, my God. New York was so much talk with so little, like, real high gambling that I saw. But I saw a few. I told you about Waterdog when he played this guy, George the Greek.

You could hit the ball well and then not go.

But he was firing them in, like it was a swimming pool. Oh, yeah. He was firing them in.

You sound like Earl right there.

His stroke was so pure. It was so pure. It was so wild to watch. He was just running out. I think he might have run, like, 75 and out or something like that, like something crazy.

Yeah, which is like 300 on a regular table.

We'd just watch him do it. It was like watching him just run ball after ball while George couldn't do shit. He beat him a couple times like that, with different games, too. I think they played some one pocket, too. George loved one pocket.

Yeah, well, he was probably one of the few gamblers there. I mean, I love New York. I love the guys around New York. But it is more of like a lot of shit talking, really, and not as much action, maybe.

It's interesting that that's the case. Because you would think of New York, you would think of, like, wild people, crazy. They're out there on the streets. They're gambling.

Yeah, it's almost like they've been doing it longer, though. Like, they're smart. You know what I'm saying? Like, I mean, they want to win. I mean, they want the edge.

Did you read Running the Table, the Kid Delicious book?

No, I haven't read it completely.

It's a really good book.

He was a great guy.

The guy who wrote it, what is his name? John Wertheim, I believe,

Yeah, Danny used to talk about it.

Yeah.

Possibly becoming a movie.

I know they were trying to do something with it, but then he died, you know? So, I don't know what they would do. I mean, you would have to get someone to play him that looked like him.

I don't know if anyone could ever act like him. No one. He was awesome. No one. I mean, like, incredible.

Yeah, there's a few really good books on Poole. Playing Off the Rails, another one. Yeah. Really good book on Poole. And Tony Anagoni.

Yeah, Tony.

But that just romantic vision of this person doing, like, the craziest kind of way to make a living. You're making a living off of your skills, and you're just gambling random people in pool halls. And the people there are looking out for people like you. Because they know people like you coming to town.

Yeah, but they kind of like it, too. Yeah. You know what I mean? Oh, of course. You know, more.

There was a guy.

Like 10,000 playing 50 a set.

There was a guy who was really good, who was from, I believe he was from Montreal.

Paul. Poitier.

Yes, Paul Poitier. Paul Poitier came through Executive Billiards and robbed a bunch of people. Really? Yeah, that was fun to watch.

Wow. That was fun to watch. Because he wasn't a big gambler, per se.

You know what I mean?

He was so good. Oh, yeah.

He was so good, though. He was stealing with some of these guys.

He's a really good teacher up there now. I think that's what he mainly does, teaches pool.

Yeah, he shot my friend John. He's nuts. It was beautiful to watch, though. I mean, the guy, just watching, someone who's just elegantly moving that ball around the table from perfect position.

He was kind of an elegant kind of guy. anyways. He was always cleaned up. Yeah, real nice, real clean. Handsome.

There he is, his beautiful mustache. Hell of a player.

Yeah, he actually lived in Texas for quite some time.

Oh, did he really?

Yeah, he lived in the Dallas area.

So he was the first pro that I ever saw that came through executive. Oh, wow. The first, like, real, legitimate pro. And that was, you know, early on, I was just learning pool. Just learning pool.

Yeah, well, he was pretty solid fundamentally, and stuff. You know, like, kind of critiqued that. So, be a good one to watch. But he was kind of like just a nine ball player. So, not to pick on Paul, of course, but when you're on the road.

You gotta play everything, huh?

You learn, you gotta play.

How many times have you gone to a place that they only play bank pool?

Well, I'll tell you one place. I was in Cleveland. So, I was on the road.

Which is right next to Kentucky.

Well, this is north. Ohio's north. Oh, Cincinnati. Yeah, Cincinnati.

Cincinnati's north. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. I'm trying to think, because Kentucky's supposed to be the bank place.

Well, I'll get back to that when I was going to talk about it. But, yeah, I went through, like, all over Kentucky, a lot of small towns. Now, I wouldn't say that's the only thing they would play. But that's the only thing they would play me. Without knowing me.

Oh, okay.

So, like, Mount Sterling. I don't know how old this pool table was, right? These pool balls were so old. They were like snooker ball size. They were worn out?

He gets a quarter rack.

For 60 years.

Did he ever get a raise? Did he ask for a raise?

I don't know. I was only there, like, two days. So, I don't know. Yeah, yeah.

Did I get a dollar?

No, he was happy as hell. Wow. I mean, he looked, you know, just one of the nicest guys in there. Just like me in there. Yeah, yeah.

No recreational play.

Yeah, no recreational play. Yeah, yeah. Holy shit. Yeah.

You know, you'll see those no gambling signs. That's a no, no gambling sign.

Yeah, exactly right. Exactly right. I love that. No recreational play.

Oh, no, it was awesome.

So, the guy that ran the joint was called Shorty. And he was one of the younger guys in the place. He's probably 35.. You know, and I'm, this is 1994, so I'm 23.. So, he says, you're kind of young.

Wow. Yeah. Three cushion billiards?

Three cushion billiards, yeah. Wow. Yeah, there were a couple of really great players in there. that, I mean, they kind of played giving some handicaps in the three cushion. But it was mainly one pocket and banks.

That's a wild game, three cushion billiards. It's one that, just, for whatever reason, it's really hard to find. It never took off for some strange reason in America. Or it did at one point in time. It was very popular, right?

Yeah, it was popular, but it was more like exhibition. And the tournaments just didn't pay that much. It's almost like the old school players back in the day. They didn't make their money off the tournaments. They made their money winning some tournaments and then getting sponsored and traveling the country for Brunswick, doing these exhibitions.

No kidding. And who's putting these events on?

A couple Korean companies over there, because it's always been big in Korea, right? It just kind of got rekindled again. So now all around the world, really, they're having bigger tournaments. That's awesome. They're playing for 30s and 40s.

Yeah, well, I love that there's so many events now, you know, because I watch so many of them on YouTube. Like if you enjoy watching pool, I used to have a box of Accustats VHS tapes. They're like this, like a washing machine box filled with Pat Fleming's tapes. And I got rid of all of them now because you just fucking get everything on YouTube.

Yeah, absolutely. Everything's on YouTube. Well, I asked this question. You might know. Is there any more streamed sport in the world than pool?

It's streamed constantly.

I mean, but so many different ones as well.

So many different ones, right. All these different pool rooms, like Oscars Pool Room, Hard Times in Sacramento, just streamed that tournament. I was saying I was watching Tyler Styler and Shane play.

Yeah, let alone great players. I mean, the next level down, other tournaments, I mean, just amazing to me. I don't know of other sports. I don't watch them like that. I mean, I'm a sports guy.

They don't really stream that that often. I mean, there's only, like big events, that stream. There's UFC. There's Bellator. I guess you probably get PFL on some sort of streaming device too, right?

Oh, platform after platform. Really? I mean, there's a ton. I mean, there's no more, I don't think, that I've ever heard of or seen.

I think it's the Internet. I think the Internet sort of rekindled it in some people. And I also think it got a boost during the pandemic because people started playing it.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

I was talking to you about pool table sales and whatnot. during the pandemic. It was through the roof. And along with that, I mean, you're going to just get a percentage that like it. And once they start liking it, they're going to watch it.

It gets really good now. It's actually a legitimate career path. But when you were doing it, you were just a wild person. You were just out there doing wild person things.

Well, yeah. It kind of made steps for me. I mean, I kind of, like. I said, I never knew you could make a living or play good pool. And then it kind of, all right, I can make good pool.

When did that happen?

Well, 1995 and 6, I was, Johnny Archer kind of just told me, he said, hey, you need to start playing the next level. He said, you're the good enough player. It's where you should be. It just depends on if that's what you want to do, you know. And so I still gambled afterwards.

Yeah.

You know, so, especially because the first year, I think I played seven tournaments, and I might have won one match. Really? And I could beat most of the guys I was losing to. Now, the first draw was hard because I wasn't a seeded player. So I was that friend, you know, Lou Ott, you know, Johnny, you know, Kim Davenport, all those guys.

It's a different nervousness than gambling?

Oh, 100%. Yeah. Gambling, I don't recall ever starting off nervous. I'll take that back. Now, if I only had a couple of barrels and I was on the road, you know what I mean?

Percentages say.

Yeah. But, I mean, you know, that's the difference. But, I mean, overall gambling. I played races to five for 5,000.. I played the biggest set I ever played was like 38 Gs, but I wasn't nervous at all.

Really?

No.

I mean, I knew the person I was playing. We probably had history of playing before. You know what I mean? I knew what to expect. You know, generally it was one pocket more.

That's why it's so impressive watching someone just break and run five racks in a row in a tournament.

Oh, yeah.

It's just perfect precision. It's because you know the control that's involved in all those little fine movements. Oh, yeah.

But that's the thing, though. When they heat up a little bit, you know what I'm saying, they start to forget about it a little bit more. They start to play better. But even the fillers and fetters and all them, you know, and they'll tell you. But they're nervous.

Yeah, I can imagine. Poor Max at 180 beats per second.

He was pissed, too.

180 beats per minute is so much. That's like a full-on sprint.

No, it was way up there. And there was somebody, I can't remember, maybe it was Shane, that was like 90 or 85, like way, way down there.

Well, it shuts that hearing aid off. I know. It's strong, huh? That's such a great thing to be able to do to shut the world out. It's not a great thing to be deaf, obviously.

Yeah, it makes sense.

Its energy. I imagine that's what's going on with him. He shuts that hearing aid off and he can probably just completely concentrate on the game.

Well, that, and the one I thought about with him, because he's always been talked about with practice so much, right? His regimen was, so, you know, long, right? Yeah. But I mean, to be able to shut them off when you're practicing and being in a pool room, you know what I mean? Like, really, get involved in yourself.

I was hanging out with Max Everly and we were at this pool hall in Las Vegas that this Italian guy owned. This guy had the best food of any pool hall I've ever been to in my life. I mean, legit Italian food. It was sensational. He had lasagna and linguine with clams and garlic bread.

This in Vegas? Yeah.

This guy was from Italy and he would bring over food from – he was like a chef in Italy. He'd bring over his food from Italy, like imported mortadella and all this. It was insane that the food was so good. But anyway, this is while Shane was still on top of the world. This is when he was doing the tar matches and all those things.

Well, that's the amazing thing, too. You ever see him? just sit on the back rail with the cue ball and set up the long shot, hitting it 100 miles an hour? Well, try doing that for like three or four hours straight.

Yeah.

Hitting the ball that hard. You know, swinging the – I mean, you'll be wore out. I mean, he'll win the hot seat at the U.S. Open and be the first guy practicing. Not even play until the next day.

It shows. Yeah.

I mean, you know, I don't know if there's anyone better in the tough shot ever. I mean, I know Filler's awesome and everything, but the true tough shot, I mean, under the biggest pressure, maybe Shane's the best.

Well, he's certainly in the argument as the greatest of all time. I mean, you've got a handful of people, Efren, and so many different people. We were talking about Bustamante when he was in his prime. But the thing about all those guys, like when you go back to, like, the early days of tournament play and Efren, Reyes and the Filipino invasion, like, that, was all gambling. It was all gambling.

Oh, 100%.

Which is one of the most exciting parts of the game of pool, is this illegal aspect of it. I mean, it's not illegal everywhere, but in a lot of places it is.

Well, as soon as someone bets on the side, it becomes illegal, I think, is how it works.

Oh, well, then, it's illegal every single goddamn time.

Yeah, right, right, right.

Someone bets on the side in Texas?

Yeah, that's a form of racketeering or something. Yeah, something like that. Yeah, but, Efren, you know the story.

You can't even make a bet with your friends? Like, what if you and I were playing?

No, me and you are supposed to be able to play, and we could bet a million.

Okay.

And it wouldn't be a problem.

But Jamie couldn't bet on us.

I think that's something like that. Or if there's someone taking a percentage of some sort. That seems un-American. Kind of like the poker. Y'all got the legal poker around here, right?

I do not, no. I don't play poker.

Yeah, well, they got the legal poker rooms, but they charge, like, pool time. Like, by the hour, so they don't take any money out of the pot.

Interesting.

Yeah, so it's legal now.

That makes sense.

Yeah.

That's not a bad compromise. That's okay. But I feel like not being able to bet on your friend is un-American.

We're definitely not Texan, that's for sure. You know what I'm saying?

Like, if you're gambling with somebody, and you're playing someone, I'm like, I got money on Jeremy. And if I say that, that's illegal? If, like, you, were just making an agreement?

I think so, yeah. That sounds so crazy. I'm pretty sure.

That sounds so crazy.

It happened once in Houston, like, right before I started. Actually, a couple times, but once in Houston, at a pool room that I frequented. Like, a year or two before I really started going there, right when I was young. They didn't take the guys that were playing. They took the guys that were all betting on the side.

Yeah. Meanwhile, how many people are out there getting robbed, for real robbed?

Yeah, right?

How many people could you have been arresting instead of, like, finding people who are gambling the wrong way?

Yeah, there's a lot of those, right?

Yeah, it's just, it's such a, like, and, you know, like I said, those two books are great, like, depicting the romantic aspect of it, playing off the rail and running the table. But to have actually lived that life, to actually been, like, when did you come off that life? Like, when did you stop, like, traveling constantly?

Like, town to town kind of thing? Yeah. Probably around 98, 99, I really jumped up in the rankings. Started being able to get, like, real sponsors, paychecks, stuff like that from sponsors. But I still didn't quit gambling.

Was there the fear that you entering into professional tournaments would knock your gambling?

Nah, by this time, people, everyone knew, I mean, you know, it didn't take long before a few trips, I went by my middle name. Yeah, because there were magazines that, you know, you could see what's going on around the country. Right. You just might not get a picture or a video of it or whatever, so you start to hear names, you know. So, like, first time I went to California, I did that, actually.

What did you do? Did you just use a different name?

Well, it's a funny story, and I think he can laugh about it now, but, you know, Marcus Shimat is, right, from Sweden. So there was a guy that was staking him and a lot of other great players, and he was big action, the guy was. And I knew Marcus was out there, and so I'm in hard times. I think I told you about this the other day with Keith, but the only two people in the hard times that knew me, all right, was Keith and Jose Perica, all right. So everyone else didn't know who I was.

Yeah, Bellflower?

Yeah, so they got the player's side, right, with the tight tables, and they got the looser tables. Well, he had me on the looser tables thinking, you know, I'm just a sucker, you know. So he says, the stakehorse says, double the bet, and we'll give you the eight on the tight tables, right? So this is like really good for me. You know, now I'm getting a spot on even a tougher table.

Oh, no.

He says, if you are, I got a cue for you, you know. And I was like, no, I ain't Jeremy. Because I'm in the middle of this $9,000 set playing, you know. So I said, no, I ain't Jeremy Jones, you know, and I just sent him on his way. And then the next day, when I came in, Mark knew who I was, and, you know, everyone spilled the beans, kind of thing.

Was he mad at you?

No, no, not at all. He understood. It's kind of like a funny story around there now, I think. But Marcus was mad at me for a little while.

Yeah, that's why I was asking.

Oh, yeah, because he was European, you know. And it was just kind of like, you know, if someone got me like that, you know, it's going to sting. But it's going to be more like, all right, touche kind of thing. You know what I'm saying? Later on, you know, we're going to laugh about it and stuff.

So when he beat you, the first two sets even, were you hustling a little?

Well, I might not have put forth my best effort, but he played real good. You know what I mean? He was just, all right, let me pick up this 400 or 500 and get out of here.

But were you purposely trying to set something up?

Well, I thought – you know, I'm definitely not trying to win for 200.. You know what I mean? Like his stake horse, who now is actually, after that trip, became a real good friend of mine. You know, at that time, he was known. you could beat him out of 40 and 50, you know, 1,000, right?

So, when you first start playing, you play good, but you're not really bearing down.

Right, right.

So you're showing him that you can play a little, but you might miss some shots that –.

Plus, I wanted to see him play. Right. You know, I heard the name. Right. I kind of wanted to really see, because eventually, to beat him out of the real money is going to be playing even.

In these other countries, is there a lot of gambling going on? Obviously, in the Philippines there is. But is there a lot of gambling going on in these other countries where all these players are emerging?

Some of Asia, for sure. Southeast Asia especially, I think. You know, Thailand, like you said, Philippines, Indonesia.

One of the fun parts of American pool culture is the stakehorses.

Oh, absolutely. They're some of the biggest characters.

Yeah, some wild, crazy people with tons of money.

Yeah, and how they got it. Yeah.

Yeah, and they're interested in gambling on pool.

Yeah, I've been paid in buried money quite a few times.

Really?

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, it stinks. It stinks. Really? Oh, yeah.

Do you think there's, like, bodies next to the money?

I don't think so. Why did it smell?

Just mildew and shit?

Yeah, I think. so. Yeah, I'm talking about, yeah, I think this has been there a long time, 30 years. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There was a guy one time, we were in South Carolina.

Yeah.

And so he took it like a grain of salt. It was kind of like a disappointed father kind of thing, more than upset. He had plenty of money. But it's amazing what people do with their money.

Yeah. That's a Hunter Biden type move.

Probably got it buried a little better.

You need something. Yeah. But I mean, digging that money up for a need.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

I don't think so.

Chicago Billiards was owned by this one eccentric millionaire who would encourage gambling. And if no gambling was going on, he would put money up for guys to play. He just wanted action constantly. They had dorms there. They had beds in the back.

Well, that's just like poker games. Houston had a big underground poker scene. And the same thing with pool rooms. If you have a guy that owns the poker room, that's action, that's the best games. Yeah.

I remember I was watching this guy play. And he just got off the phone. And he said, my wife just told me, if I don't come home now, I'm getting a divorce. And he goes, rack the balls.

I've heard that in so many words before.

But he said it out loud. He goes, rack the balls. He was like, we're going to keep playing.

Oh, yeah.

Looks like I'm getting divorced.

Not the first time. she's told him that probably.

I mean, it's just too addictive. Those places are too addictive. I couldn't wait to get back to them. When I'd go on the road and I'd do stand-up, couldn't wait to come back, get to the pool room. What's going on?

There were a lot of truck drivers that got to play all over in different places. But the one thing about pool, even if you're not around the game, it's hard to leave totally the game. I mean, it's good to hit the ball. well. It feels good.

Have you ever considered writing down some of your road stories?

Oh, yeah.

Danny DiLiberto has a book out.

Yeah, there's a good friend of mine, Harley Bryant. I think I was telling you a little bit about him the other day, but he's like a legend guy, and I tell him all the time. I mean, this is like the best book ever, if you just tell your stories. He was raised on a riverboat, like Porky's. You know what I mean?

That's one of my favorite expressions is a riverboat gambler. Oh, yeah. Those type of people. Oh, he's one of them riverboat gamblers. Just wild people.

Wild people around the water. I mean, I don't know what it is. I mean, I'm from there too, Baytown, like right on it.

What do you think it is?

It's a very carefree kind of, you know, once you don't bathe for a week, kind of figure out. you ain't got to that often again. I mean, I don't know. I don't know what the mentality is.

But why is gambling so prevalent in the south? That's what's fascinating to me. Like, why is it so a part of the culture? I mean, and even in things that are illegal, like rooster fighting and shit.

Oh, yeah.

Gambling is, like, so pervasive.

Yeah. You know, you would know more about the north than I would, but maybe the faster pace. I mean, we always just said it's kind of like California, a little bit the same. They're real smart, and they play well, and they're not just going to take much of a beating. And the thing is, even if you play well, the difference, a lot of people, like I used to get accused for wanting, you know, the best of the game, which who doesn't, right?

I've seen guys try to match up for hours.

Oh, yeah.

Give up, come back, give up, come back. Oh, yeah. And then finally, oh, my God, they're racking the balls? They're racking the balls.

Yeah, but, you know, I go to senior centers, right? Sometimes play pool with some of the older guys, or I have a lesson there or something like that. They talk a little shit without hitting you. You know what I mean? And some of it goes way back.

Well, that's, it was always, it's just a part of the fun of it all. It's like wild things are happening.

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

People are accusing people or sharking them.

Well, the swings, too, the ups and downs. You know, like, I mean, you know, you just broke, so-and-so. He's dead, broke. He was borrowing money yesterday, and, you know, he spent two days out of the pool room, and he's won 10,000 cents. You know what I mean?

And for people that don't understand the allure of this, you're constantly engaged in some kind of competition. It's constant happening. Oh, yeah.

And it's endless.

Yeah, it's endless.

Yeah, it ain't, you know, basketball, what are you going to do? Are you going to go shoot free throws, maybe, or maybe play one on, I mean, this is endless. The pool games and the handicaps, the partners.

It's no season. Yeah.

Y'all, two could play, mean. Yeah. You know, we could rotate. Yeah. I mean, it's just all kinds.

Yeah.

Not really the stories, no. I've written some stuff for teaching because I do a lot of that, right? And it helps to write it down, yeah, for sure. But no, not the stories. Probably should.

You definitely should.

Yeah. I think I'd want to know somebody, though, like really trust, putting it in someone else's hands. Right. You know, someone's going to come across with it. Yeah, give it the right climate, whatever that is.