Eduardo Bolsonaro & Paulo Figueiredo
2024-03-01 00:35:23
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A little less than two years ago, we went to Brazil to cover the presidential election then in progress, the incumbent President, Jair Bolsonaro, was running against a former president convicted felon, very close to the government of China, called Lula.
And as you wandered around the country, went to its biggest cities, you really got the feeling, if this election goes to Lula, this place is going to, in very short order, become a police state. People are going to go to jail, democracy is going to end, the media will no longer be able to report honestly and openly and the Chinese government will have undue influence over Brazil. And that's a big deal, not just for Brazilians, but for the United States, because Brazil is the most significant country in the Americas after this one. It's huge, it's got enormous natural resources, it's got a well-educated population. There's a lot in Brazil.
And so if it descends into darkness, that's a problem, not just for Brazil, but for every country in this hemisphere. So the question is, two and a half years later, a year and a half later, rather, what happened in Brazil? Lula won in an election that was very obviously rigged. And what happened to the country? So we thought we would get an update now with Eduardo Bolsonaro.
He's the son of the former president. He's a very well-known legislator in Brazil, and he joins us on set. now. Eduardo, thanks so much for coming on.
Thank you, Tucker.
So, looking down from here, from a vantage of thousands of miles, but at Brazil, it looks like it's no longer a free country.
Sure, not anymore. We have people get censored, not only social media. You have people exiled, living here in the United States, for example. I'll tell you the names to have no doubt about what I'm talking about. Rodrigo Constantino, Paulo Figueiredo, Alan dos Santos are three journalists that are living here in the United States.
And as.
But they're Brazilian journalists who cover Brazilian politics, but they're living here. Why are they here?
Because they cannot work anymore in Brazil. And also because you always have the risk of being arrested by the Supreme Court. And, to be honest, not the whole Supreme Court, but one justice called Alexandre de Moraes, he had opened an investigation for more than five years, persecuting usually conservatives. So these gentlemen, Alan dos Santos, Rodrigo Figueiredo, Paulo Figueiredo, Rodrigo Constantino, they're living here because they are shut down in Brazil. Alexandre de Moraes, this justice, he cannot even let.
this person has a Twitter or Facebook account in Brazil. If you are in Brazil and you want to see what they are posting, you need to turn on your VPN or be outside of Brazil.
Wait a second. How can... Okay, so, the Biden administration is a great protector of democracy and human rights around the world. They tell us that every day. And yet their close ally, the Lula government, is shutting down press freedom and forcing journalists into exile.
Have they said anything about this? Has the State Department complained about any of this?
I never listened to something about that. But what we are doing, we are receiving some support from our other congressmen, from the Republican Party, for example, Marjorie Greiner, Chris Smith, among others. We had some conversations last year and we expect this year to come back to the Congress in a bigger delegation of Brazilian congressmen to have a hearing in a commission, inside of the Congress, to at least tell all around the world what is going on in Brazil. Because in Brazil, it's not worth it anymore. You appeal.
You don't have for who appeal. Is the Supreme Court suing people? They say that they are the victims. They accuse and they judge everybody. This is not a democracy anymore.
I cannot say that, unfortunately. And you don't have where to appeal or who ask for help.
So just to get specific about what's happened and when. So it was the very last day, I think your father's term ended on New Year's Eve, 2022.. I think that's right.
December 31st. January 8th, you had your own January 6th.
Yes. This is that excuse that they use to go after every conservative.
So, almost a year to the day later, the United States government was involved in it as well, the Biden administration. You had a supposed attempted coup on the democratically elected government of Brazil, the Lula government. And conveniently, a bunch of Lula's political opponents wound up in jail. Is that a fair summary? Yes.
And the funny thing, Tucker, is that they say that it was an attempt of a coup. But in January, in a Sunday, no weapons were arrested. There was no support from police or armed forces. So, in fact, it was a protest that went far away. I do not agree to people breaking the doors of the Congress or the Supreme Court, whatever.
But these people now is getting punishments of 17 years in jail.
If you commit- 17 years for protesting. And can I just say, it's pretty clear that your election was stolen by the Lula government. I think that's fair to say. From the outside, it looked stolen.
Yes. Yes. I have my opinion. This is a very sensitive issue.
No, I know it is.
I have to take care about my words. But what I can tell you is-.
Why would you have to take care of your words?
You have a congressman that is in jail now because he made a video, Tucker. He made a video talking bad words for the Supreme Court. This man, a congressman, is in jail for nine years. His name is Daniel Silveira.
Wait, wait. He's in jail for criticizing the Supreme Court?
Yes. Not only criticizing. He said bad words. That's true. I would never do a video like that.
But imagine-.
I don't know. Bad words. Did he threaten violence?
How can I say that? Talking shit things to the ministers. Your mother is this and that. You know-?
You're allowed to talk shit to people in power in a free country, aren't you?
Yes. Yes. Where you have the First Amendment respected, yes. But in Brazil, we have some articles inside of the constitution that guarantee for senators and congressmen like me that you not receive any kind of punishment about what you speak. It's even- It's like we have freedom of speech in Brazil, at least in the constitution, and the congressman is one step ahead, because we cannot receive punishment about our words, votes, or whatever we say.
But as this congressman is in jail now, and the things are getting worse-.
Okay. I'm sorry. And I keep talking over your story. I'm just amazed that someone-.
I know that's very impressive.
. is in jail for criticizing the government. It's obviously not a free country just on the basis of that. But I said it was very obvious from our perspective, from the US perspective, that your election was rigged with the help of the CIA. That was my conclusion.
There is a very good article in Financial Times talking about the help of US to guarantee that democracy in Brazil.
And by guaranteeing democracy, that would be guaranteeing the election of the left wing candidate.
Yes. Yes. And the thing is, there is so much power that the establishment did, for example, to avoid the printed vote amendment that we tried to approve in 2021. Why someone from the electoral court, the electoral court, they organize and they judge everything about the elections in Brazil. Why someone from the electoral court, the superior electoral court, as the president, Justice Barroso, came to the Congress and talked with 11 presidents of political parties, telling them to not approve the printed vote amendment.
Why someone works to not have more transparency in the election? It's strange. But, as Tucker, in my position, I can tell you, I cannot accuse that the election was frauded, but they cannot prove that it wasn't.
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OK, but just to be totally clear, in a free country, you can have any opinion you want about an election because you're a citizen, right?
Now in Brazil, they consider it's a crime.
So it would be a crime for you to say, yes, I think the election was stolen.
Yes, I could suffer a lot down there in Brazil if I come back.
Even though we know for a fact the CIA was tampering in the democratic process. And Brazil was playing a role in the election.
Yes, yes. You know, and one of the things why my father got ineligible in a record time right after Lula take office is because he had the meeting.
He was told he could never run again.
Yes, he is ineligible until 2026.
. We are trying to overturn it inside of the courts. But, as you can imagine, it will be very hard to do that. I still have a hope. But anyway, he was turned ineligible because he had a meeting with ambassadors and talked with them about the electoral system in Brazil, how it works, and criticized some points.
Normal thing. But before of this meeting of Bolsonaro and ambassadors, the president of the Superior Electoral Court, he had the same meetings with these ambassadors.
Wait, so you're saying that your father, who's often been compared to Trump, has been declared ineligible to run again in the next election on the basis of complaints about the electoral system, and that you had a protest against a rigged election that was backed by the U.
S. government and that, as a result of that, Lula's political opponents wound up in jail. I mean, this sounds like exactly what's happening in the United States.
Yes, yes. Have you noticed that? Yes, I usually say that it's the same virus, but in Brazil it has less antibodies. Actually, this is a phrase of the journalist Paulo Figueiredo. It's the same virus here, but imagine that in Brazil, the left wing, or at least establishment, they fully control the Supreme Court.
And who could do the check and balances and stop the Supreme Court to do that is the Senate. But the Senate, they don't take any kind of action against that. They have exactly the same speech of the Supreme Court justices. So, in the end of the day, Brazilians are losing the hope to get back democracy, because if you use machines to vote and you don't have a way to at least recount the votes, you have to trust the system 100 percent. And then they don't let more transparency in the elections.
How can we elect someone, Bolsonaro, a conservative, a right wing or someone outside of the establishment? This is the feeling that a lot of Brazilians have nowadays, unfortunately, in Brazil.
I mean, once you have electronic voting machines, you can't be certain that the system is real. Yes. Why do you have electronic voting machines?
I tried to avoid that. Once again, we approved in 2017 this printed vote bill. What is that? We use machines to vote. All right.
This bill says that it was necessary to have a printer aside of the machine. So at least you could recount the vote. When you have any kind of suspicion in the election, it was approved in 2017, a federal law. All right. On the next year, the Supreme Court said that this is unconstitutional.
That's why. In 2019, we started to do not only a bill to change the federal law, but amendment to change the constitution, and we would have the votes, because this was never an issue of a right wing or a left wing politician. It was something that was used to get together all of the Congress. But then, as I said, the president of the electoral court came to the Congress, talked with 11 presidents of parties and changed their mind.
And so, if you have electronic voting machines with no way to recount and no way to prove what the votes actually were, if you're in favor of that, clearly you're committing fraud. I mean, what would be the other reason to be in favor of that?
They say that it would be an anti-democratic comment of you and they will shut it down.
in Brazil. So if I, if I was a Brazilian citizen and I was in your media and I said what I?
just said, they would shut down your social media. It's exactly what happened with Paulo Figueiredo. Paulo Figueiredo is someone like you, Tucker.
Wait a second. I would not be allowed to say that in Brazil.
If you say it would be only once.
Only once. Only once.
Then they're going to shut it down. And if you keep doing this, send the FBI to your house. And if you keep doing this, they freeze your account. Just what happened with Paulo Figueiredo. That's why he's living here together with Alan dos Santos and Rodrigo Constantino.
Paulo Figueiredo was used to have daily millions and millions of Brazilians watching him. Imagine you, Tucker, have like the best moment of your career in Fox News and the Supreme Court. justice says, OK, you cannot say that Lula is convicted. You cannot say that he has connection with Maduro and Daniel Ortega. You cannot say that he has ties with the PCC, the largest organized crime in Brazil.
It happened. You can Google it, you're going to say, see that.
Yes, I can't imagine that if that's the question, but I can't imagine living in a society where you're just not allowed to say it anywhere. I mean, anywhere. So you're saying if I write that on X. If I broadcast it on a television channel, if I say it in a podcast, if I say it enough, I'll be shut down.
Yes, yes. Or even more than that. For example. When, when you've been in Brazil, you met Felipe Martins, right? Yes.
Is the Jared Kushner of Jerry Bolsonaro.
Yeah, I know him well.
Yeah. Special. This guy now is in jail.
Why is he in jail?
It's a good question. It's the same question that we do. And see, he's in jail, because at least what we see, like literally in jail, he accomplishing a preventive jail, is what we say before the, before the judgment. You are in. prevent jail.
To guarantee that he's not making confuses the investigations or to guarantee that the law will be applied against him so he can't run away. I don't know, in fact, what moved Alexandre de Moraes to send him to jail. But, as is very usual in dictatorships, they go around the leader of the opposition movement, arresting people, you know, sending the federal police or their. We say, SS guard. Arresting and sending to the house of the other people, my brother, Carlos.
Yes. He received the visit of the federal police. Everybody that's around the Jair Bolsonaro are going are are being arrested or receiving the federal police in their houses to do to do some research, orders, warranties from Alexandre de Moraes.
Has it? has it happened to you?
Not yet, but I think naturally one day it will happen.
Do you think you can stay in Brazil?
I don't feel that I can say everything that I want, even if I'm now a congressman and the most voted congressman in the history of Brazil, former chair of the Foreign Affairs and National Defense Committee and son of the former president. Because if they sent a congressman to jail because he recorded a video. They can do anything they want. That's why I'm telling you, I have to make sure about my word. Before, especially talk about election and in the past also about the pandemic.
Vaccines, and all of that, because you're not allowed to complain about vaccines.
They say that they're going to say that you are anti-vaccine and you are committing a genocide. This is what they were using to talk about.
You're committing the genocide by questioning the vaccines that killed all those people. You're the genocidal maniac.
My father, he bought, with the federal government, a budget. He bought more than 600 million vaccines. In Brazil, you could even choose what brand of vaccine you would like to receive. But Jair Bolsonaro always said, you take it if you want. It's up to you.
And be careful, because, for example, Pfizer, if you read everything that Pfizer advises you about the vaccines, I don't think you would take that. Because all of the Brazilians, we are in a poor country. What Brazilians go to a doctor before receive a shot? No one. And maybe if you have problems with your immune system and some other pre sickness, maybe you're going to die.
And when you die, you never have an investigation to check if it was a consequence of the vaccine that you took. It's crazy. It's crazy. But this issue, you know a lot, because I see that it happens a lot here in the United States, too.
What's amazing is how similar what's happened in Brazil is to what's happening here. It feels like you're a couple of years ahead of us. And it's even more amazing that the Biden administration and the government of China have played such a big role in it. And let's end on this. China was a big issue in your father's campaign, I remember.
China wants Brazil's natural resources. China already owns a lot of your infrastructure, your power grid, etc.
Food, soya.
Food, exactly. What role has China played, do you think, in what's happening now?
Now they are free to do whatever they want, because Lula considers them an ally and they consider the US the imperialist of the world. You know, Lula is an old fashioned communist. That's not a coincidence that during his second mandate, in around 2008 or 2009,, China became, for the first time after, I don't know, maybe one century, the number one trade partner of Brazil. Because in the whole history of Brazil, it was used to be the United States. Yes.
But not anymore. This is also very weird. how the US can do a campaign to guarantee the democracy, as the Financial Times told, supporting Lula. When we were always open, even during the Biden administration, to be together with them. It's not a problem for us.
I want you to do trades and business with the US way more than with China, because China, you know, do business with the US or any other country here in the Western hemisphere is not the same thing to do business with China.
Yes.
But unfortunately, the current president, he doesn't think like that. He thinks that we have to be close of China.
But why would the Biden administration be so supportive of Lula when he's anti-American?
I think because they're both left wings, ideology. This is the connection, that it's a craziness connection, I guess, because if you think, really think in the Americans, you should never do that. I'll tell you. It's here in the United States, sometimes I see debates talking about a possible third world war or a conflict with China, right?
Brazil is the number two in the world when you talk about exports of iron, the fourth largest food producers of the world, with more than 200 million people in our population. And we have a lot of oil, more than even some of Arab countries. Yes, way more. In a war, what would you like to have? Energy, oil, iron to the war machines, food?
Yes. To feed your soldiers?
And everything now, if you start a war now, I will tell you, the Brazil administration would be together with China against the United States. So this, I think it was a wrong policy, or at least you didn't. as an administration, you didn't pay attention about Brazil. And China is doing with South America the same that they did with Africa.
So if you keep not looking carefully about what is going on in South America, maybe you are going to have more and more problems, more and more people going to the U.
S. borders.
If you look to Venezuela, about 10 million people from Venezuela running away from the country. Some of them, they come from Mexico, trying to come here by your borders. Brazil is like eight times more bigger than Venezuela. I'm telling you that if you do not, if Brazil turns itself a Venezuela, you will serve a way more problems here in the United States, and, for sure, not only the borders, drug dealers, supporting terrorism, it will be a risk for you. Sure.
Eduardo Bolsonaro, thank you very much.
No, thank you, Tucker, for the opportunity to talk to all of the world about what is going on in Brazil. You have such more other things happening. Only to finish, please search for the judge, Ludmila Lins Grilo, who is a judge living here in the United States too. And Alexandre de Moraes freezed her account in Brazil, so not even her salary he's receiving anymore. And more and more Brazilians are going to ask for asylum here, unfortunately.
But we think that the change can come from the United States in this very important year.
I hope so.
Thank you. Thank you.
So we thought it'd be interesting to learn more about the descending darkness in Brazil from someone who has tried to cover it and now no longer can. Paulo Figueiredo was a very well-known, one of the best known television journalists in the nation of Brazil. He now lives in South Florida. His Brazilian passport has been stripped from him. This is all since the election of Lula.
And he joins us now in the studio to explain how exactly that happened. Paulo, thanks so much for coming on.
It's an honor to be here. I don't know how it happened, so I can't give you details.
So, just to be clear, you're, you're fully Brazilian.
Yes, I was born in Brazil.
Grandfather was president of Brazil. Yes. You're fully vested in the country. Yep. You're not just like some guy who showed up from Brazil to cover things.
If I was in the U S, I would say my family came in the Mayflower.
Okay, exactly. So how, but now you're living in exile in the United States without a Brazilian passport.
What is that? Well, I didn't even know that was possible, because until I believe, uh, 2020, the only people, the Brazilian government seized the passport was a international drug dealer.
Yes.
People were looking for him and they had to seize his passport. Uh, but Diana was working normally on a regular TV station in Brazil. Like mainstream media, doing a conservative show on primetime. We had millions of people watching it. It was the most watched political show in the country.
And, uh, on December 30th of 2022, uh, I received a call from someone that worked on a big social media company saying, well, we received a court order from the superior court, superior federal court, the Supreme court of Brazil, uh, saying that we have two hours to take down your social media platform. and I had, like, I don't know, 1.5 million followers there on that specific one. Um, and then I was like, wow, I'm not, I'm not going to say the name because I don't want to expose the person that informed me. And I was like, wow. So I went live streaming and I said, look, apparently I'm going to disappear.
Um, and, but later I found out, cause. I got a call from a federal police officer saying, look, we, your, the order against you is broader. Uh, apparently, uh, they were to freeze all your assets in the country. Um, they also ordered that we, we gonna seize your passport and you can't get in the country. And I was like, wow, what was the crime?
Um, so I never, I was never formally notified. So there's nothing anywhere that I committed any crime or that I'm being accused or charged of anything. But, um, apparently they just decided that was best for the Brazilian people not to hear from me.
Well, that's totalitarian.
It is. Brazil is now an, well, we'll call it a relative democracy, but the fact is we're in, well, the things that are happening in Brazil only happen in dictatorship countries.
Well, that's just an incredible story.
So, but it was not only to me, I have to say that. So there was a colleague of mine on, so, 10 days later or 12 days later, well, after the January 8th happened in Brazil.
And just for context, I should say, so. you said that, that you were stripped of your platform and told that you were having your passport taken.
But I was still on TV.
You were still on TV. Yeah. And that was, well, that was like on the second to last day of Bolsonaro's presidency, he had been declared the loser in the election. Right. But nothing even happened.
Is that correct?
Nothing happened. And I stayed on air, but on January 8th, the revolt happened in Brazil, the protests, the demonstrations. Um, and on January 9th, the department of justice opened an investigation against the TV station that I worked for. And when they did that, the owners panicked and they, they had to fire all the conservative commentators from, and only the conservative commentators from the station. And they used to have, there used to be number one in terms of viewership.
And of course, now they're not doing well because it lost, you know what happens with the. I do. Yeah. They got rid of their stars. Right.
Um, so, and that's, that's what's, uh, that's what happened in Brazil. And then I was let go and I opened new social media platform, uh, profiles that were shut down as well. And I've been, I've been opening new ones all the time. It's like my new YouTube channel already has, I don't know, 200,000 subscribers and people, they block it. And then people, I opened a new one and people resubscribe.
But you've never, just to be clear, you don't, you've never been charged with a crime?
Oh, no. I haven't even been, uh, uh, called to depose or anything that haven't, I've never received any communication from the Brazilian government.
How can the U S state department not say anything about this?
Well, because they, they sponsored it, right? The U? S state department sponsored what's happening in Brazil. So they're, they're co-responsible. The United States is, let me put it bluntly, the United States is co-responsible to what's happening in Brazil right now.
It's such a shocking story.
It is. And it's not covered by the mainstream media in the United States at all, because they're accomplices of what's happening. The New York times, they pretend nothing's happening. They wrote a couple of pieces against Demarais, but very mild. And they're not reporting what's happening.
But if they take one of the most famous journalists in a huge country, I'm not sure Americans understand how big Brazil is. It's like the United States.
220 million.
Yeah. 220 million with massive area and massive.
As big as territorial, uh, continental United States.
Exactly. So. it's not an insignificant place. I mean, it's not Suriname. I don't understand how they can, the new government can shut down a journalist because they don't like his opinions, shut down his passport.
And the U S state department doesn't say anything.
Well, not one journalist. We have at least three journalists. Actually there's, there's a case of a podcaster. It was kind of like Joe Rogan in Brazil. This very liberal guy that was taken down as well.
And he's living in the U S under asylum. We have, we have, I would say we have, dozens of Brazilians living on political asylum in the United States right now. It wasn't my case because it was already here, but many others. Yes. You have Alan DeSantos is unbelievable.
His story, he was, was kind of like our Alex Jones in Brazil. Uh, more, more, uh, vocal. Yes. But still he has the right of his opinions. I didn't agree with him all the time.
And they shut down his channel. Uh, it was a big company by then, had a studio, everything. The federal police raided his house with his wife, pregnant, pointing guns at him. It was a nightmare. And we're talking about a guy, it was like a family man.
And he has been living here in the United States. And there's a, there's an open arrest warrant. He was on Interpol red notice list right now.
For what?
For a crime of opinion. For, um, uh, the terms, the terms they use are misinformation and, uh, attacking the institutions. But when I like, when I say, well, attacking means criticizing, right? You're a public officials. It's my duty as a journalist to criticize you for us.
Yes. You work for us. I don't work for you. So, but, but that's what happened to him. And there's Rodrigo Constantino, was my colleague, same station, also very, lots of viewers, and.
And what, I mean, what American journalists, these defenders of press freedom, have said anything about this?
No, except for Glenn Greenwald, who lives there. Who lives there in Brazil. And, uh, except for him, I don't, which is he's on the left. You know him very well. He was always on your show.
Um, but he was the one, the only one, that spoke anything about it.
Do you worry about him?
Well, I think he should. And, and he should be worried. Although I think the government of Brazil would have, would be more cautious, meddling with a United States citizen and Glenn.
But Glenn won't pull back.
I don't think so. I think he's very well, he exposes the NSA and the CIA, right? So he's very brave.
And last question, how did you wind up in the United States? So this happened to you.
So I actually left Brazil when Dilma Rousseff, the lady that succeeded Lula on his first time, when he, when she got reelected and I was, I'm out of here. And my, my wife was pregnant. I didn't want to stay there and raise my kids in Brazil anymore because I knew what was going to happen. And then we were lucky because we had Jerry Bolsonaro winning and the country started going in a good direction, but we kind of knew the establishment wouldn't let that happen for a long time.
Right. So, having lived through this, what do you think of the US presidential election now in progress? You cover American politics, I should say also.
Well, it's, it's a, it's a moment of decision for the whole Western world, because I don't think there's a way Joe Biden can win fair and square. He can, can be president if 80% of the country think you're too old and you're a large percentage of the country thinks he's mentally ill, maybe senile, like whatever. the department of justice says. Yeah. And you can't, you can't win a presidential race unless.
You cheat.
Unless you cheat, unless you, it's not a fair and square election. So what I think it's going on right now, for the whole world is the whole world's watching. If people still matters in any way, Trump will be elected. If the establishment has all the power and democracy's dead in the Western world, and it was a good run, we had a good run for like a little over 200 years. That's very rare in the history.
You're, you study history, you know how rare that is. Uh, then democracy's dead. And I can tell that because this is exactly what happened in Brazil. And what's going on more and more and more. And you see that is that the powers are shifting from the people to the courts, what people call juristocracy, not a democracy anymore, which is a great thing for globalists, if you think about it.
Well, let's say you want to change something, uh, in a democratic country, you have to pass a bill in Congress and then Senate needs to approve it. And the president needs to sanction it. And so, if you're a billionaire, a progressive billionaire, you have many here in the United States and you want to change something in the society, let's say, make the society more open. Um, you have two options. Either you go through the very, very difficult democratic process.
Tedious.
Tedious. Yeah. It's very hard to control all that. And I think the founding fathers knew that. And that's why they made it this way.
You can do that, or you can, well, let's say, you get six, a Supreme court, just five, and then you can, I don't know, uh, make abortion legal all over the country has been done. It has been done before. So if you're a globalist, powerful elite, you can circumvent democracy and go straight to the judiciary. And that's exactly what happened in Brazil. And it can happen here.
That's the most. live it. I've been living here for 10 years. I can tell the reality that we're living in Brazil is not that far away from America, as you think. you guys think, Oh, my God, we're, we've been a democracy for hundreds of years.
And no, if you think if you had, like six Supreme court justice, there were progressive, appointed by Obama or Michelle Obama, or who knows what, you think your Supreme court would be zealous about the constitution. Really?
If you, if you told me five years ago, the Brazil would be in this situation, I would say, get out of here. Now. that's too much. They're not going to arrest some mainstream media journalists.
Take his passport.
They've done it. It was, it happened fast. Very fast.
Well, you've wrecked my day. Um, I appreciate your coming. Thank you. Yeah.
Thank you.
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