Jon Batiste

Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. I'm Dan Shepard. I'm joined by Lily Padman.

Good afternoon, sir.

Oh, how are you?

I'm really good.

Oh, yeah, me too. This is a very rare occurrence. We're both doing the intro and the fact check in the same four-hour chunk that we did the interview.

Yes.

Yeah, so I'm riding fucking high off of this one.

Yeah, what a special interview.

Oh, my God. Everyone should watch his doc, American Symphony. I almost feel like, if you're unfamiliar with John at all, watch the doc, then listen to this interview, because you can't imagine how special and creative this human being is that lives on planet Earth with us. John Batiste. Oh, my freaking God.

Wait, is he an EGOT?

No, I was looking at that. That was going to be one of my questions. He needs an Emmy and a Tony.

Oh, we'll get him there. So easy.

Yeah, he's fucking your age, for Christ's sakes. Bastard. Oh, I hate that part. That was the only bad. The only bad thing about John is that he's young.

I think it's okay, because he's not human.

That's true. Yeah. On his planet, where he's from, he's 70.. Yeah. Oh, that's comforting.

Yeah, but still an hour.

Oopsies.

Oopsies.

His albums are World Music Radio. That's his new album. that's out right now. It's incredible. You know some of the songs on it and it's just a beautifully done album.

Profound, yeah.

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you. Oh, I already know that. You knew that? Yes, I know. The reason why it doesn't depress me is because you're not from this world.

to the end. I had to say it now because it's so true. This is amazing to see what it looks like here. Wait, John, have you heard the show before? Yes.

our most frequent guest. We've had him like four times or something. I took him for his motorcycle ride out front. He's a very special person. we have.

y'all have a rapport makes sense. It's four times. you say it. Yeah. Ah, y'all got a vibe.

Oh, where you at? Yes. Yes, loud. Yes. Oh, loud.

I can't believe that you have created this and have the vision to make space for this and share it with others in the organic way that you have come together and to see that, to understand, that vibrational frequency existed between you and you could connect those dots in the world to create a space for this and manifest it and share it, build community around it. Yeah. Huge, huge fan. And also there's a DNA of the way you have conversations. It's kind of lay therapy.

yeah, be for real and breathe. Come on. Right? Yes. Yes.

Come on. Let it shine. Mighty but powerful. Oh, mighty powerful. She's mighty powerful.

We met John for five seconds and now he and I are already coordinated in the same exact agenda for you. I know you guys find me a husband. I'm happy to have you guys. You're a once in a lifetime entity. I mean, you're so special in so many ways.

Why do you feel like you haven't met that person? Well, I have so many issues. Exactly.

Brown kid, Georgia, New Orleans. And pretty early on, I had some experiences that told me that I was not attractive or worthy.

And so many. Can I say. even worse? There was a boy that liked her and she liked the boy, and the friends were setting them up. And they said, why don't you ask Monica out?

Or I'm only going to like people who definitely can't or won't love me back. Probably more can't, like very unavailable.

Or the captain of the football team. Yeah. Ben and Matt Damon, like in the stratosphere, unobtainable.

It's like these extremes and it creates a scenario where it's hard to find that actual compliment.

Exactly. But you're getting there now. Well, I'm trying. I've been going on some dates. I've really been forcing myself to do it.

Let him have it. Well, I'm in this space. Let's be honest. Yeah, right. Let's just lay it all out.

He's so nice and he really likes me. And so I am trying hard to not let that be a problem.

Because when boys do like her, it fucks with the whole... It's like messing up all the programming.

Because for me, if people like me, something's wrong with them.

Yeah, it's really an interesting thing. You're saying we have so many brilliant women in our lives who haven't found that person. Yeah. And oftentimes they say the same thing. If someone loves them and really is just giving them the world, it's difficult.

There's a few options under that umbrella. One is like they don't see it. I've witnessed that a bunch of times where, like someone's clearly hitting on Monica. We walk away and I'm like, that dude was in love with you. She's like, well, you're fucking stupid.

Yeah. Do you feel that that's an extrovert's game where you're creating the show? Or is it because you're an introvert and you don't feel comfortable sharing up front in that way? So you've created this character.

That's a good question.

I created a character at 11 that worked. So I stuck with it, which was like, I'm punk rock. I don't give a fuck. Girls were like, this guy's confident. I wasn't.

What's amazing is, I've always had close platonic friends who are women from, I remember, in elementary school. And I always had male friends as well. But I always have at least one close woman friend who was probably the only person I had certain conversations with. It was like a way for me to also understand the world from another perspective, with the guys. We weren't going there.

Yeah, I was going to ask, do you think it was a refuse from masculinity and maleness?

It's so funny you phrase it like that. I was thinking about that recently and have only just started to be able to articulate that.

Yeah, because you're not safe when you're a boy. You're not saying I'm scared. This person frightens me or I'm nervous about this. All that stuff. You can't do it.

You can't touch it.

No, you're dead. Persona non grata.

Right. You know, I was a kid who really I didn't talk until I was about 10.. I was very quiet, very observant of all the folks around me. Big family come from a very, very colorful city in New Orleans.

And a jazz dynasty.

It's amazing. It's also scary, because everyone is really putting himself on stage. They know themselves. You're the youngest. You don't know yet.

You don't feel brothers and sisters.

Yes. OK. And I'm the youngest of 30 cousins. Whoa. All my siblings.

At eight years old, in a band with your brothers.

Yes, it was great. Don't get me wrong. It just was not the expression that I thought would become my primary mode as a career path. I never thought I would be a musician until I was well into my teens, almost 20..

Even though you were so firmly on the path to become one, you still didn't identify with that. really quick. Do you think it's because there wasn't enough available air in the room where you grew up?

You know, it was deep, man. I thought about that. And it wasn't so much that it was more the thing that we were talking about. Monica, as far as seeing yourself, and if someone's hitting on you, you don't see the situation you're in. We don't see who we are or where we are in time.

Am I understanding you in the way that sometimes you're waiting for life to happen, but it takes a long time to realize like it's happening? It's happening. You're waiting for it. But yes, it's happening and it's blowing by. And you got to recognize like, no, no, it's today.

You were born into this, Baptiste. This is who you are. Some people are blessed enough from day one. It's set. Other people, it's already set.

Yeah. When did you accept it?

I started to really see music as a profession when I was in my teens, 17,, 18, 19.. But I didn't really accept it until I was 24, 25..

Can I guess at one of the things that might have solidified that?

Oh, my goodness. I just want to say I love this.

Me, too. Me, too. Me, too.

You're a bad cat, man.

You know, when the who's gather on the Christmas tree and they celebrate Christmas anyways, even though there were no presents, and his heart grew three times, like you're making my heart three X. Because I think the most moving thing that you've done for me is stay human. And you're going out in the real world. And it's an antidote to the plug in and drop out society we live in. And you're going out and you're actually getting to look into the faces of the people whose emotions and mood you are adjusting with your output.

It's so glaring. Yeah, I bet. It's clarion. It hits you. It's like, oh, wow.

Also, I don't want to get too saccharine or sentimental about music, but if there were a day to do it, it would be today. So as a comedian, I go do stand up at Largo. It's community, and it's wonderful. They're my folks. They like this kind of comedy.

It's the only thing we can all agree on these days.

Yes, you could put the left and the right in a room. And if you play Coltrane's Alabama, people are going to cry.

And even on the most basic level, we can all agree that we're hearing sound together. Yes. We can't even get to a point in the major power centers of this country and the planet, really, where half of one side can agree with half of the other side that something is happening. Yeah, it's really true. And you can be looking at the same thing, feeling the same thing.

You hijack the whole nervous system. Yep. And the anxiety goes away. All the racket inside goes away. It's so magical.

Will you say in the doc, which I love, that music is inevitable. That's such a beautiful way of putting it. It was always coming. It was always here. It's in the fabric of the universe.

That's so deep that one of us created these instruments. at some point. What drove that? And think about how long ago that came into being, that that was a feeling that we need to spend the time to do this. And then so many traditions and rituals and ways of expressing that have existed.

Well, what's great, I don't say this to insult music, but it serves absolutely no purpose. There's no purpose to it. You do not need it. for survival. Of all these things, we needed tools.

Except I feel like the original beat is your heartbeat. That's like how you know you're. living is through a sound. Yes, it's the first sign of life. And so perhaps that's why we're so wired.

Yeah, you lay your head on someone's chest and you can hear their heart and you love them and you think, oh, my God, that's the thing that's keeping them here. Oh, it's proven.

I've studied this in great detail because of the way that we're born. And 75% of our body as infants is water. And the way that that sound carries the heartbeat of the mother or the lullaby that is sung in your ear when you're a child. All these. You're right.

You're born into rhythm. You spend your first nine months being formed. It's very loud in there.

Oh, my goodness. It's a symphony. Yeah. When the music becomes something that is more entertainment based, we lose the thread of that. And as we lose more and more of it, you have these conversations, and it doesn't just affect the creative arts.

Yeah.

I was thinking while researching, you went to the New Orleans Creative. Yes, yes. What was it called?

New Orleans Center for the Creative Arts. NOCA.

NOCA.

Shout out.

Oh, NOCA, shout out, baby. Yeah, 504, yeah. We have interviewed so many people that have attended public creative arts programs. Yeah, again, it's one of those things you could think is an extraneous expense or it's not vital. People need to learn to add more or whatever.

Oh, yeah.

Because for the outsider, for Monica, and I, like, what do you think of, Monica, when you think of Juilliard?

I mean, I don't know anything about it, but I picture like this picturesque campus. Everyone walking around is creative and singing and drawing. And I assume it feels wonderful to be there. However, I've heard enough stories about Juilliard to know that I don't think that's true. Eww.

My thought of it is much more like in Rocky Four, when the Russian is being trained by the government. He's got all these high tech machines and it's so dialed and everyone's trying so hard and like having read the 10,000 hours Malcolm Gladwell thing, knowing the fucking repetition. I think more of whiplash. I think of like this pressure cooker, a pursuit of perfection that's relentless and daunting. And then the people that make it have to be so specific.

One percent, sometimes less, is accepted in a year from all across the world. So, with all respect, I say this, if you get into Juilliard, you had to be a weirdo. When I say weirdo, I mean, so counterculture. Who's going to sit in a room from maybe eight years old or before until 17, with a cello perfecting bow strokes, trying to figure out how to make this tuning or this piece that's impossible to play, that no one on the block understands. How to make this work, or how to just do the perfect plie and tendu and literally become so competitive with this.

I feel like. OCD is a prerequisite.

Beyond. Or you're just a natural.

You're a phenom. Do those exist? You seem to be one, but do they exist?

I believe that there's more people who are phenomenal now because of many factors. The information age, there's so much. Definitely. They exist. I think that Juilliard is a place where people go and find community with other weirdos.

Yeah. I just know this from my uncle. My uncle went to Juilliard, played trumpet. He had outgrown the trumpet instructor in his town. Then they would go to downtown Detroit.

You know, it's many different eras of Juilliard. There's the era of competitive razorblades and the piano for the competition. You know, that kind of thing. Right. And then there's this era, which is the recent era.

Although that's a musician's dream. You guys are already in your bedroom the whole fucking summer. But think about your college years, though.

Oh, no, it sucks. It's the worst. The most anti-social. You can't perform. for people.

Yeah, I was going to say, were you a threat to tradition?

That's what it would be perceived as. But as I grow, I see it more as I'm expanding the tradition.

Well, now they're very happy.

I always believed that.

Yeah.

As much as I felt I was going against the grain, I always believed it was for a greater purpose. And it would be something that would make space for a lot more people.

Could we assume that they wanted to insist that you got the perfect classical foundation and then you were free to fly away and create beyond that? Like, let's say, Picasso, you got to learn first to draw realism before you can do cubism. But was that maybe their premise? If we're being generous?

It was even more of a lack of understanding of my idiosyncrasies and the way that I was as a human being. First off, I was sent within my first year to a psychiatrist.

You mentioned that in the doc. And I was like, is that true? Or is that just kind of like a throwaway? They were worried about your mental health.

Yes. They were. like, something is wrong with him or he's on some substance. Sure.

What do you think you were doing that? made them think about it?

Yeah, because you're amidst a lot of people who, I would assume, are similar to you.

And you strike me as very sane. Yeah.

I feel like it's very stiff in environments of the arts most of the time. And people feel self-conscious and nervous. And when I was 17,, this is the age of me developing my character, that character that allowed for me to move to the world and have armor. And that character is something that was a protective mechanism and also very, very much a flamboyant, outward expression of my joy and exuberance for music and life. And wanting to share that with other people, wanting to free other people.

Oh, dear. What about this?

That's what they said. What could have been different if he was here today? Or what about Beethoven could be better? Why is that the gold standard?

This is a great point. And I would imagine it pertains way more to Juilliard than any other kind of musical tradition, which is in a weird way, you're expected to accept that the greatest have already been here, that you're in the shadow of all these people. They're on another plane. Yeah. And the best you could ever do is match them.

The best. It can't be done, can't be replicated. And you should just spend all your time trying to just reach the level where at least you can express what they had expressed.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like an arrested art in a weird way, which is counterintuitive.

Yeah. And it's not what the world needs. I have so many huge ambitions. I feel like I'm just getting started in so many ways. And the expression of the art was like the beginning of me understanding how big the world was, how much stuff was possible, how much we could actually do.

Yeah. You knew that so young. That's so impressive. If someone told me to go to the psychiatrist when I was 17 or something, I would be like, something's wrong with me. Did you ever feel like that?

Oh, yeah. Huge anxiety. Huge levels of depression. Needing a lot of moral support from friends and family. That whole first year was just a doozy, baby.

It was rolling.

I fainted in the subway. I got pneumonia. the first couple of weeks. I was in New York. I was in the hospital alone.

Right.

From there, I go to school, get sent to the psych office, have a consult. Then he writes a letter to the dean. When the dean gets this letter, I probably could find this letter now, but gets a letter saying, you are mistaken about this young man. In fact, I believe I was in the presence. This is his words, not mine.

I want to kiss him on the lips. Me too.

And so things like that, moments like, oh, wow, this person sees something in me. I was able to achieve this small goal. Oh, I have these friends, a family, helping me to move through this period.

I moved to California at 20.. I had so many friends in Detroit. And then I land in Santa Barbara. The shit I was doing in Detroit was not working there. I was so lonely.

Yes. And I want to ask you, too, because you've found a way to not be pigeonholed. You force people to reassess how they view you. That's a huge, huge element to it. First, you think you're crazy.

Yeah, exactly.

All eight billion, y'all.

Crazy.

I'm the only sane one. Yeah. That's the scary world of being. So you get past that. Then that's the first entree into maybe achieving something.

And really quick, because I want to ask you. Yes, as of you, and I want to ask you, I feel like one of the hurdles of those changes is some interesting pull, to not seem ungrateful.

Exactly.

If you liked me in comedies and then I go, well, I'm going to take two years off so I can write and direct something. You do feel a bit ungrateful for the folks who supported you doing the original thing you wanted to do.

Yes, yes. And you love them.

Yes. And you're truly so grateful for them. But like, if I do something for a while, I'm like, OK, we did that. Now, what are we going to do? It's a short ass ride.

But it feels ungrateful. It really does. I'm really big on being very self-aware and having gratefulness and humility guide everything. Because if you stop seeing yourself, stop being yourself and then you can't create the thing that's the most resonant that only you can create. So I am aware of that for many reasons as a value.

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

Yeah, I like that. Have you heard the one comparison is the thief of joy? Yes, that's a good one, too.

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Go ahead, dad.

Go ahead, dad.

I love that. And I relate to that. And it's so true. I feel like the latest bloomer. It is so true to my experience and how I'm perceiving my journey.

You're still like perfecting your shit. Yes.

It's crazy from the outside, though, because it's already better. And a true gift in a way that no one else is doing. And you're saying you just started. It's so hard for a regular human to wrap their brain around. Yeah, I get it.

where you're going to actually create an entirely brand new. Yeah. But even like we are, the notion that you had a classical composition on there.

You did that. OK, great.

I don't know what you took from that. I don't think that was the finished product. I think you were like, OK, that's a piece. I'm going to try this thing. I'm going to try this thing.

You're casting lines out there. This is what came back. Oh, wow. Now I understand this a little bit through doing it. I'm huge on the experiential learning and really, just like I was talking about getting our rejection and throwing ourself in the water.

OK, so I'm thinking out loud now, because we have all of our genres pretty well defined, for better and worse. And there's no new instruments. There's no new notes. There's no new tempo. All the building blocks are there.

Yes. Music is life, is music is life. And it's converged. And that's the thing that I was getting at when I think about the Internet age and the information age, the convergence of all this experience that's accelerated the human experience. So now we have all these different conversations and we're processing them in a way that's exponential.

Yeah, it's almost like we've just been scattergun, blasted with all these things that seemingly don't have a thread connecting them. I think of like the first time you go to Disneyland or World, you're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. There's so much stuff. What's that? Right.

That's right. It's so deeply tied to the real spiritual and moral awakening that we're yearning for. Connecting the dots on all of this disparate information and experience is going to show us the oneness of all of us.

And I think music's going to play such a crucial role in the way that physicists no longer speak in English, right? As soon as they get to a level of physics, now math has to speak for them. Right. And when they're telling you about the theory of relativity, they're doing their best to make metaphors out of the math. But the math's actually what says it.

It's so crazy because music has to now find its new meaning in society. The expression of those things, the things that can't even be put into words, this sort of language of the invisible realm and the unspoken truth that we're now in need of articulating so that we can move to the next phase. Music needs to shift its purpose so it can serve that ultimate vision.

You have a great quote I wrote down. Jazz is really a term that doesn't encompass what it's pointing at. The intellectual breadth of black geniuses who were basically denied the credential of being a genius in society because of their skin tone. We always talk about improvisation, and it really is one of the only forms of music that exemplifies the American experiment, putting all these different cultures into one country and coexisting and trying to create beautiful music together. That's that.

But in the way that life is devastating and beautiful and you have to keep going, it's incredible.

She wasn't referring to the Zuleika of it all. That's not what she was saying was devastating. What was devastating is this magic that exists, that so few people can access. It's so kind of rare in our life. You seem to be, you answer like, seem to be living inside of the bubble of the magic.

But with stakes, as you just said earlier, I think that's part of perhaps why there's stakes in both of your lives.

But even her response, so, for people that don't know, your wife had leukemia, was in remission for five years. The timing of this isn't right. And oh, I'm so sorry. So she was in remission for 10 years. Also, it's so cute.

I know it's so cute.

That was Monica's favorite part.

But yeah, I was like, do you know they met at band camp?

But she's in remission for 10 years. And then literally the moment. if we fast forwarded through it, it's like Juilliard, then it's Stay Human. It's Netherlands teaching. It's starting to perform live.

Cosmic.

And life. And no wonder your body started speaking back to you. Like, I'm watching you try to uphold this schedule of going to work on the symphony, then do some press for the Grammys, then fly to the Grammys, then see her in the hospital and do this, then FaceTime with her. And I'm like, this is too much for a human to handle. And he, mentally, is going to keep doing it.

Yes. Life is all one. That's the big lesson that I've started to process. I don't even want to say I learned it. You just have to keep readdressing it.

Did you ever in your mind, when you were feeling low and dark, did you ever feel like her coming out of her mission? was your punishment to flying too close to the sun?

Of course. It's a natural thought to feel that one is the cause and effect of the other.

Yeah. Like God gave me all this. And it's a little too much. I don't deserve this. No one does.

But see, you can't hold on to that belief. That's toxic. That's like when you don't think that you're beautiful. Yeah. No, it's the same kind of things.

But do you not have? I have the voice? Monica has it, too. We relate a lot to this great example. She's long outgrown auditioning for commercials.

Like the world is a give and take. It's like, if you mess with this. Yeah, you're making deals all the time with the universe. Yeah. Yeah.

Right. Like there's a homeostasis.

Which is very wrong. I think that's what you're saying is like. that's something to fix.

But I would have fallen into that personally.

One thing that dispels that myth, and that's not the same thing as saying the energy you put out in some form doesn't come back to you, theory of relativity. But if you prioritize differently, if you're so focused on forward motion, momentum, healing, if you're so focused on being a vessel and being the voice, the tip of the spear, if you're so focused on that, these other thoughts become trivial. It's like it falls away. You're going too fast. It's too much fire around.

Would you agree? you have to become a master of compartments? Yeah, I was and shifting. Now we're doing this. Now we're doing this.

I said in my mind that I was compartmentalizing until Sulika, my wife. She's a sage. And she said to me, no, John, you're integrating. You found some sort of wild harmony. It's unorthodox harmonic symbiosis.

Well, it's real syncopation, actually. No, no, that's not in this beat. Wait. No, it is like it or not.

It is. There's some divine logic to it. And I believe that that's a hard one. That's why I can't say I fully learned that. You have to really invest in it every step of the way.

OK, so I had a lot of envy. I have to earmark. one other thing. I want to tell you, I was very envious of. But one thing I was not envious of, and this was really consuming me while I watched it.

We didn't know the outcome while filming. That's right.

And there's some moments on the second trip to the hospital after the bone transfusion. I'm looking at her. And if I were you, I feel like the thing I'd be wrestling with is does she need me to be endlessly hopeful right now? Or does she want me to summarize and give closure to this beautiful experience we had? Because I'll do either, but I just don't know which one to do.

If she wasn't such a superstar, I would be wrestling with it more. Naturally, I wrestled with what to say in any given moment over eight months of not knowing, are we going to be here together? How do you know what to say ever?

Yeah, exactly.

How do you know what to do ever? But there's a pressure on people who are going through illness to suffer well. And she's shouldered that in the most authentic way possible, that it's a beacon for how to be a caregiver, how to be with her. It becomes like, oh, she is so authentically embracing this situation that it instructs me and I'll see her. And sometimes it's a time to cry.

Oh, it's a hard place to be.

Yeah. Just be there. Yeah. That's the hardest thing.

Well, she's a fucking gangster.

She has a role on this planet to show us how to live under duress with grace. She really is the person. And she has such a way of expressing and creating art through that. That is another layer. Like it would be one thing if it was just her ability to be an example of this aspect of the human experience and how to be in community in that, how to be alone in that, how to process that, but then to create art.

Well, she's sitting in there. She can barely keep her eyes open. She's making these paintings that are so beautiful that I can't do on my healthiest day.

Yeah, it's not normal. And as our family continues to grow, I'm so grateful for this chronicle, having this chapter documented. And, of course, of us making it to this point on the other side of it.

When you met her and she was playing standup bass, to me, I'd be horny as fuck, because that's such a... Like, you picked the standup bass. Yeah, yeah. Is that part of the appeal? Was that the instrument she played?

You know, it's like an immediate cue of a certain type of personality.

Yes, it's such a good clue. Oh, she'll do anything she wants to do.

Yeah. Oh, that's you? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It lays out a lot for you. Of course, her first impression of me, because you got to remember this time, I'm like 14..

Sure.

Quiet. Yeah.

Let's be very honest, Jump. Because you're so successful, it's all working. But I meet you at 7-Eleven and you're penning this. I might have a different... I'm like, uh-oh, this guy's hanging on by a thread.

Ooh, is he... What's going on right there?

Or look through all this stuff.

Well, she saw your soul.

Oh, yeah. Quick. And that was at first like, oh, this is disconcerting. I don't know if I'm comfortable.

I feel very naked. You or her?

Oh, me. You. Yes. She had this epiphany moment when we reconnected. She was at Juilliard for, like her, last year of high school.

Of course she did.

And I was at Juilliard the first year. So like we're a year apart. And she's in the subway with our friend, Michelle. Michelle recounts the story. And so I remember she's like, that's John Baptiste.

You're in the bubble.

This was like a period of time. I always wore headphones. I'm always in some world. And she goes, oh, that's John Baptiste from the Summer Bandcamp. I'm going to marry him one day.

Come on.

Like, that's what I mean. She has a...

She's connected in a different way.

She has this kind of way of connecting with what's happening. But it's like premonitions. It's not an obvious thing to say that at that point in time. We don't have like years of history. We don't really even know each other like that.

Can I also say I think you're an intimidating person to fall in love with? I said this out loud while I was watching the documentary. I said, he's on such a different planet in a beautiful and wonderful way that if I loved you and was interested in you, I would be jealous of that force in your life. And I would feel perhaps that I couldn't ever fully connect with you.

Wow.

It's an intimidating level of creativity. You have given yourself to it. The wind came in. You're like, blow me away. And you have been blowing around.

I think a lot of people before her thought that. And not even people who I've had relationships with, but people who I could tell they were on the periphery and intrigued and to think, man, could I be in a relationship with John? And they ultimately decided, no. Yeah. And I can see that now because they see our relationship and they're like, oh, I didn't even know that this was possible.

When they see you and Slyka.

Yes, it's really interesting. Like some of them are my friends. Sure. And it's like, I didn't know that these pieces could fit.

Because you already had a love. You're already married to something so profound. Yes. How could you possibly make room for another?

And I didn't even know that for a while, because I was so deep in. I didn't realize that I was being perceived like that by potential suitors.

Yeah, yeah. I'm thinking that as a straight dude watching it.

I'm like, this guy scares me.

I'm afraid to love him. I was really thinking that.

You guys are such an amazing pair.

Can I be a part of that creativity?

She's a force and a polymath. It's unbelievable. She absorbs a medium and then just jumps right in. You know, we met. She's playing the bass.

Best sellers. Exactly.

And now this painting obsession. that's incredibly productive while she's in the hospital. If she didn't have that relationship with her craft, it couldn't have connected. When I'm speaking with Kristen and thinking about you guys, I wanted to ask immediately. It just hit me.

So far.

Yeah. For us, this is our first experience and it's a lot.

I bet. In a beautiful way, but it's very, very, very exposing.

Oh, something about that. vulnerability begets vulnerability. It begets expectation. And we have really, really felt that. Like it's unreal, the kind of response to us as a relationship.

This is a great, great, great avenue, because you actually touch on it in the doc while you're making it, which is this fame thing, is a really peculiar thing. And you seem to have a sense that it is minimally corruptive. It'll change you. What's funny is, I think I'm ahead of it, as I'm sure you think you're ahead of it. But then I'm also smart enough to know like, well, there's no way I'm ahead of it.

It has to. It's too much.

It's too powerful and abnormal and unique. And so now you add a relationship into that and then that becomes a third member of the relationship. There's a third person in your relationship, in my relationship.

Third person? There's a world.

People have this vision of things that they have to share with us or have to like instruct us about. Even this weird thing of people having to almost pit us against each other. Like, hey, you know, it's not a competition, but we win either way. Right, right.

But by the way, it's the same as you. being a musician. You make people feel a certain way with your musical output. And then, when they meet you, there's some expectation that you, as a person chatting, will give them that same emotion. But you can't chatting give the emotion your music does.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because you're frustrated. Exactly, that's why I do the music. Because you're an introvert. So, yeah, you can't deliver in person the thing that they fell in love with. So it's a very similar pressure.

Not even aspirational. It's beautiful. It feels like of another time and space and planet and so special. And if only, there's so much like, if only I could have that, which is beautiful. But if you're out on the street and people are coming up to you two together and they're like crying, that must be weird.

I'm a person. It's also the merging of that. Because the experience of the music and what we've done there and the experience of what she's built, that coming together is super intense. Individually, as an artist, you want to cultivate that sort of intensity with folks, because that's what's going to feed people the most. But then, in person, it's a difficult thing to understand when you're protecting your family and you're protecting what is sacred for you and what helps you to replenish and thrive and then be able to deliver.

Keep some stuff for yourself.

Yeah. Because it's only one of each of us.

Yeah, exactly.

That's why I was like, man.

Let's be honest. We both want it both ways. So you do want to model and share, as you did. And it's beautiful and people hopefully feel very moved, like we did. And then you want to go to a different planet where you live on as a normal person.

How do you deal with it?

Well, how we have chosen to deal with it thus far is to try at every turn to be super honest about. we're in couples therapy and we don't get along. And COVID was almost career ending. for us. It's just going, I'm happy to share the fun posts where I get her a sloth, but also know it's a beat down and we hate each other.

Wow.

So, to me, the antidote is letting the other shit be known as well. We've always said this. We're flattered by this hashtag relationship goals, but do not fool yourself. You're not going to meet your Kristen. Life's going to be easy.

Yes. The truth is the antidote. The investment breeds these moments of just, transcendent glory. You give it all and you make it to those.

Yeah. And you're just hoping to go from like little hill. you climb to the next little hill, but most of it's a valley.

Do you feel an obligation to continue to be transparent, or is there a moment where you feel like, okay, we did it. We've given a great example. Now it's time for us to retreat.

Yeah. We are 16 years down the road of this. You are, I don't know what year. you're on. Two.

And as far as balance, there's got to be times where you don't feel like being on and she does, or vice versa. It's a deep thing. And with us in particular, I'm thinking about, I'm always so protective of Sulika and preserving her energy. But even we go places and you have, like TMZ, it's not even planned. So it's those moments more so where you're somewhere and then all of a sudden you're bum, rushed.

Well, she's in a very unique situation, which is people are going to see American Symphony. It's going to remind them of their loved one who went through that, or maybe they went through that. So the people that approach her are going to come at her with a level of emotion that she will have to service. And it's taxing.

She doesn't have to.

She doesn't have to.

I really do want to be clear about that.

That's what I'm always saying.

She doesn't have to. I'm coming to a solution, though, I think, maybe. And it goes for us too, which I like. I cherish. If you like this show, it's because you've been through some shit.

Yes, you almost have to move through situations and know, oh, this happens. Okay, I know where I'm going to shift to.

And guess what? It's going to happen.

It will happen at one point.

So then, when it doesn't happen, you're delighted because your expectation was I was going to have to deal with this. And then, when it does happen, you're a genius and clairvoyant and you predicted this. So at least you feel like you have power, because you already knew about it.

Oh man, this is great.

And also you can be rude to people. I know you feel like you can't.

I understand the sense.

It's not on the table. I can't touch it.

I'm sorry.

Listen, to you. it will feel rude, but it's actually just putting up a boundary and it's just like, we actually can't talk today. I'm so grateful for you. And we're having alone time right now.

You have to practice it.

It will save you, though, because if you're just giving and giving and giving, you'll run out.

It's a lot. What you just said. Even that made me get anxious.

I'm like, I haven't said it to the people. I know.

And then you get to the point where you're driven to do something like that and set a boundary sometimes, and you feel so outside of yourself, like, oh no, I'm thinking about it for a month.

Yeah.

Stay tuned for more armchair expert.

If you dare.

We are supported by the all new Toyota Camry. My first car. Yeah. It's such a dependable, perfect car. It really is.

You're the Marine?

Yeah. You're the ex-con. Yeah, I did time, but you only got to cast aspersions at me. From the director of Mr. and Mrs.

That's my expectation. You know, you're not.

I'm this. And your friends know you're not. You're not.

I'm just like trying to.

No one that knows you would say that. And that's really important. And I think you have to go like, yeah, I'm going to have to be okay with the fact that some people will not have the interaction they wanted and they'll tell everyone they know that I was an asshole and I'll still be alive. And I'll still be able to do all the things I wanted. You know, like you do have to accept that some people, I was just thinking the other day I was in some crazy situation.

Oh man. See, that's the thing. When you run into people, they're expecting 100%, and I've had this tendency to just always want to give it. Now, we're together. I want to protect Zulaiqa, so then it's also like that.

That gets easier, right? Yes. It's probably easier for you to draw a boundary if it's for her. Exactly. So, lean on that.

You're a bad man.

You're a nasty man.

Oh, my God.

I kind of want to tickle John. I'm like, I'm feeling it. I kind of want to grustle and tickle him. Yes. The vibes.

The reels. Man, I feel like y'all created this. Y'all created this thing to have this real conversation.

There's a moment in the doc.

Oh, I know what you're about to say. Wait, wait, wait, wait.

You seem so fucking graceful about it. I almost threw the remote. I wanted to go to that airport and find the person.

The shoeshine.

The shoeshine.

Oh, my gosh.

I cannot. So let's tell people. I was just about to say that too.

You walk up to get a shoeshine. He explains to you somehow he doesn't have the correct products to shine your shoes. And then people start recognizing you. Then he notices you're on the fucking cover of the newspaper. This all happens real time.

Yeah, that's just people, man. But John, how do you?

It's not okay to live in a world where that's happening. I can't handle it.

We're watching Couples Therapy. This amazing show.

Oh yeah.

You watch it? Oh for sure. So the tall black dude who's so awesome. I love him so much. The tall black dude who's with the Puerto Rican woman.

Things can go in a direction.

I cross the street so I don't scare people. And I was like, oh my God, that hit me. When this racism conversation comes up, it's always positioned as just like, will they get this job? Will you get into this school? Will you make this money?

It's everywhere.