Episode 445: The Murder of Kelly Ann Tinyes

I'm Dan Taberski. In 2011, something strange began to happen at a high school in upstate New York. A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms and spreading fast. What's the answer, and what do you do if they tell you it's all in your head?

Hysterical, a new podcast from Wondery and Pineapple Street Studios, binge all episodes of Hysterical early and ad-free on Wondery. Plus. Hey Weirdos, I'm Ash and I'm Elena.

And this is morbid.

This is morbid. And we got even more soundproofing equipment. I know we got like this cool, like foamy thing in front of us. I can't see anything though, and it feels weird. I know it's so weird to be like, professional.

It's like we're in our own personal miniature sound booth. It's like a sound booth for ants. it is a sound booth for ants, for ants.

Did you see the latest episode? because this is now a Vanderpump rules podcast? Love it, it's not, but did you see the latest episode where Katie quoted Zoolander? I did.

I thought of you, I love that, I appreciate that, I love Zoolander. It was such a niche reference.

Funny to this day. funny. And as soon as I see David Bowie say it's a walk-off, I'm over, I'm done, I'm deceased.

I made a weird noise. We watched it recently. John and I did you because we just were like, we need some zoolander in our life. I just really wanted to see Alexander Skarsgård. Yell Orange mocha frappuccino.

You could have just started at Stopped at Skarsgård, you could have just stopped at Skarsgård. But I needed to see the orange mocha, frappuccino and then the gasoline fight the best.

But as soon as David Bowie came on the screen and it goes, Let's dance in the background, I squealed. And John was like, I've never heard that sound emit from you. He was like, I really don't know how to feel about this. Are you all right? What's going on?

I was like, he's just so handsome, and he was so handsome in that era. Oh my God, I know he was so handsome all over the place.

He was, it's like when you cried at the last of us and none of us knew what to do, yeah.

Guys, I don't know if you're not watching that show. I was like, against it because I just I'm like, I'm so I don't know. Apocalypse stuff like, stresses me out. At this point, everyone and their mother is telling me to watch it. I mean, my mother, Jonathan Van Ness, told me to watch it.

Right, Jonathan Van Ness told you that you have to. I know that's the thing. It's one of those shows that I was really like, No, I don't want to get into this because I don't want to get into an apocalyptic one.

I watched the first episode and I was like, This is all right. Yeah, because I was being a dick. That's like, the first time I watched Zoolander, yeah.

I was just being a dick and I just wouldn't watch it. Then I watched the second episode and I was like, Well, fuck now. I care about these people. And by the third episode, I was ugly crying and snot was running down my face.

Is the third episode? That episode? Oh yes, and you saw, I was threatening John. I was literally sitting on the couch being like, I cannot fucking believe you made me watch this.

Can confirm because John had watched it before me, so he knew what was happening and so he filmed me, yeah.

Maybe I should, maybe I'll post it at some point, just because it's hilarious. Elena, like, doesn't cry. So it's really funny to see that, so it would be pretty funny, you know what?

Maybe I'll post it, maybe I'll post it because it's pretty funny. I will say I had real emotions, and I know a lot of people don't think I have real emotions.

So I think it would be good for people to see, No, you do have real emotions. I've seen so much of them recently, they happen, I've seen them.

You've seen them, I've seen them, you've seen them.

Emotional man, you know what? well I think, are you referring to the emotions that I have for the new additions to the fam? Yeah, and then I was saying, the front bottoms.

But I was just wondering if we could talk about your family. New additions. No, I am not pregnant, but I was, so what?

Wait, why did I think you were pregnant the other day? Because I said, I have some news, Yes, John, and I have some news.

She said John and I have some news. And then I said, I'm not pregnant. And I almost shat myself because I have a couple more years before. Bibbis and I thought you could hold me over.

And you are just in a different way, in a different way. Because it's been over a year now since. We lost our beloved Bubba, our beloved Bailey, and we had these two little red fox labrador puppies fall into our lap, born on Bubba's birthday.

Born on Bailey's birthday, and we had 365 days of the year, and they were born on Bailey's birthday. If that isn't Bailey sending those dogs to us, I don't know what is. And they say that, like your next dog or your previous dog sends you your next dog or dogs.

Yeah, now I'm fully convinced that's crazy. We were shell-shocked when we found that out, and we were like, they're ours.

We have to have them and we found out about them, like, in the almost wake of a tragedy. Yeah, so it all kind of lined up and they're two gals.

Are you going to say their names? Yeah, you gotta, we got Sidney, Hello Sidney.

The Sidney Prescott. And now every time I see her, I can say, I always had a thing for you, Sid. And she does and I do. And the other one is Blanche.

And Blanche is a wily little bitch. Blanche Devereaux is really she's a feisty one I love. I was. Elena was like, back and forth with names.

And when she was going to get them, I texted and she was like, Oh my god, I got them. And I was like, What are the names? And she was like, You have to wait. Because one of them, I want to tell you in person, and it was Blanche, so I knew.

One was Sid, and then I was like, what is this other dog's name going to be Miss Blanche over there? And I love them both with they're beautiful.

I would jump in front of a moving train already for them. Yeah, truly, like, immediately I was like, Well, I would lay down my life for you guys now too, yeah.

She literally said that, So here we are now. I just love two other things in my house more than anything in the whole world, in the whole fucking world.

So we're very happy over here. It was a it was a puppy shaped hole in my heart that I didn't want to fill right away. But then I think Bubba was like, Girl, it's time, girl, I'm sending you these babies. She's like, Girl, treat yourself.

Treat yourself, and I said, Okay, yay, so I'm very happy. They're so perfect.

We have some pups, so Sid and Blanche are going to be part of the crew. Now. I keep calling Sid City girl, City girl.

But it sounds like City girl, like, like, not a country girl, but a city girl, but I'm, I'm really like, city girl. I love it. And my littlest one calls Blanche Branch. It reminds me of trolls.

I love it is that his name is Branch, yeah, Branch, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, but yeah, so that's the good news and that's making us really happy and it's given us, you know, animals just give you a little boost. Oh my God, 100%.

They really do. And then I was in a state of straight up depression. The few the past few weeks. Yeah, and then you had them and and they just give you kisses and they snuggle into you.

And also, I mean that when I say that, like, I was literally actively depressed, yeah, like, don't you know? Sometimes people get mad at me when I say I have a manic moment, but I like, actually have manic moments. And remember that you don't know everyone's diagnoses just because you hear them talk every once in a while.

Just because I don't talk about my little menti bees, my little problems, doesn't mean I don't have them. Yeah, yeah, like people tend to get mad at Ash for saying that, and I'm like, yay.

You don't know what she's diagnosed with, you're like, I have literally seen her in a manic moment and boy is it something so. I think, just just know that, just understand that we don't share everything exactly. There's pieces of us that people don't know, and it's not real cool to assume that you do know.

So just like we're not going to assume we know everything about you guys, because we don't, even though we're friends here. Yeah, of course, we're all friends, we're all friends here, and that's why we're being real with you. Just a little sit down.

I mean, I did just sing Ashley Simpson to you, that's true, without I wasn't even lip syncing. But you know what, guys, we all have new pups, this is all our new pups.

Sid and Blanche are here to stay. I fucking love them, so get ready, world, I know. And then I get like, both fills, cause I come here and I get my dog fill, and then I go home and I get my cat fill. And I'm just living life.

Just living, just as my good girl would say, sliving, all right. So I think we should jump right into it. I think it's enough. Chit chat.

Enough chit chat for today, baby, enough, all right. Well, today's case is very sad. it's a very tragic case.

I was requested a ton in our folder, though, that's why I ended up doing it. Yeah, like you guys know, we usually try to stray away from, like, kid murders, oh.

Yeah, this is a teenager, oh man. And it's a really sad story, but I think it's an important story to tell, obviously. And again, highly requested.

So we're going to start out on the afternoon of March 3rd, 1989.

Kellyanne Tinez was at home, she was babysitting her eight year old brother, Richie, and the phone rang, and Richie answered. And he spoke to the person on the other end of the phone very briefly. And then handed off the phone to his sister, saying it was somebody calling for her and they were named John, Okay, so she had a quick conversation with the caller on the line. And then told her brother that she was heading out to go to a friend's house down the street and that she would be right back.

That was around three o'clock in the afternoon. But Kelly never did come back, so let's talk about who Kelly was and kind of where she came from, and her family a little bit. She was from a pretty typical working class 1980s Long Island family, Long Island. Her father, Richard Tinez, owned and operated Victoria's Auto Repairs.

It was a small auto restoration business in their hometown of Valley Springs. And his wife, Victoria, who it must have been named after she split her time as a medical assistant and a receptionist in a local doctor's office. They had those two children, 13 year old Kelly and eight year old Richie. Jr. And the whole family lived in a modest Cape Cod style house located on Horton Road, and they lived with Richard's elderly parents.

Richard's parents had bought the house back in 1967. But as they were getting older, they needed more care and support for themselves and for the house, which they were able to get from their son and his wife and the grandchildren really like Tight Knit family and the community on Horton Road in 1989, it was also a super tight knit community. It was perfect for them because pretty much all of their neighbors were also working class, and everybody really looked out for one another. I love that.

They were super tight knit, like I said, very actively involved in each other's lives, sometimes to, like, a surprising extent. A woman named Evelyn Neves, I believe, is how you say the last name wrote in an article for The New York Times. It was like a working class commune. The 19 families who lived on the street knew one another's in-laws and watched one another's kids. The 27 school age children acted like cousins.

Oh, I love that. Yeah, it's like the perfect kind of spot to raise your kids. I was going to say, that's the dream, yeah.

You would think now, unfortunately for Kelly, she was older than most of the children on Horton Road. Most of the kids were closer to her brother Richie's age. But still, she would play with the younger kids, she would set up games to do with them, and she was definitely one of the more reliable babysitters in the neighborhood.

And because her parents both worked, she really had a lot more responsibility than most kids her age. She cared for her brother, she cared for her grandparents while her parents were at work. And a lot of times, she would take responsibility for Brutus, the family dog, Brutus.

I know I fucking love that name, I love that Brutus. But she took it all on and she never complained, not to her parents, not to her friends, she just was there to help.

She's just a good kid really. Was never wanted to complain about anything. And she always just seemed to maintain what people described as her warm, generous and outgoing disposition. And she just looks that way.

She was a little cutie, yeah. Now. Her family knew her as a quote-unquote, responsible, level-headed daughter who was, like I said, reliable, honest, hardworking and also very well organized when it came to school. Now. Even though her responsibilities at home had increased, especially when her grandparents health kind of started to decline, she still actually managed to carve out time for herself. Obviously, which she spent ice skating, which was her favorite thing to do, or spending time with. Like, a few close friends that she had in the neighborhood, including her close friend Sharon Stahnel, who lived a couple houses away.

Now she's so cute, She's adorable. Like looking at pictures of her, I'm like, stop it, such a little 80s girl, you know? Yeah, she really is.

She's like the quintessential 80s teen. yeah, she's got that perfect 80s. Like a bang like bang. exactly. It's almost like a poof bang, Oh yeah.

Now, the close-knit, supportive nature of the Valley Stream community made it a nice place to live. And it also had relatively low crime rates, which was awesome because obviously New York City was nearby and full of all kinds of crime. But in Valley Stream, there actually hadn't been a murder since 1977. Wow, and that was when a teenager was killed in a random attack. But since that murder of 16-year-old Richard Lesser, the residents of Valley Stream had carried on free, mostly, almost entirely, of violent crime. But obviously, that all changed this afternoon in March of 1989..

So this day, Friday, March 3rd, 1989, started out really like any other typical day for the Tineas family. Richard picked Kelly up from school that afternoon, not out of the ordinary at all, drove her home. Winter was winding itself down, and Kelly was really hoping that she could go ice skating with some of her friends. Especially because there weren't going to be that many more opportunities to do it because, again, spring was coming. Yeah, but her dad had some errands to run, and he needed Kelly to watch her brother until her mom got home from work later that afternoon.

Now she didn't know it, but she was actually going to have a bit of a surprise party that afternoon. Her mom and her best friend, Roberta Goose, had been working together and they were gathering up a small group of Kelly's closest friends to take her out for her 14th birthday stop, which was just two days away. Oh, come on.

Yeah, like, literally, ugh, so sad. So when she got home, she grabbed the phone, which like, so relatable, like the second you get home, just like picking up that phone and calling whoever you can call.

Remember that? yes, remember picking up that landline, I was going to say, a chunky old landline, stretching that stretchy cord as far as you could go.

Yup, I loved that. ugh, the best now. So she called her friend Jennifer, but Jennifer wasn't home and there was no answer. So instead, she called her dad. And she was like, Please, can I go ice skating?

Like, I really just want to go with my friends. And he was like, Girl, I just told you you got to wait for your mom, girl, she'll be home in an hour. Direct quote No, obviously not.

So she was disappointed, but she was like, all right, like, I'm not getting out of this. Yeah, so I got to do what I got to do. Let me make some more calls, more calls on the landline.

More calls on the landline? So she called up another friend and they chatted a few minutes before hanging up. And actually, just a few moments after she put the phone in the cradle back again, that's when it rang again, and that's when Richie answered the phone to this John caller. Okay now? According to Richie, after identifying himself, the caller asked to speak with Kelly directly.

Now, after speaking for a good couple minutes, Kelly hung up. And about 20 minutes later, she told her brother that she was, quote, going to her friend Nicole's house just down the street and would be back. Okay now, it was like Kelly leaving her brother alone when she was supposed to be the one watching him was weird. It was really out of character for her. It seems like it would be.

She was usually, as we know, like I just spent the first couple minutes saying this, a very reliable and responsible girl. She's also 13, so that's why, when she didn't come back after five minutes, though, Richie actually ended up leaving the house and going to look for her. Because he's like, wait a second, she wouldn't leave me that long.

Did you say how old he was? He was eight? He was eight, That's what it was. Oh my goodness.

Yeah, so he goes out to look for her. And he went to Kelly's friend Nicole's house at about 315. But Nicole told him that Kelly actually hadn't been there and that she wasn't expecting her. Oh man, so maybe she fibbed about where she was going. That must have been terrifying for him, though.

Yeah, and it only gets like, scarier. So Richie went along and as he walked, he ran into another boy in the neighborhood, Harry Finney, who was playing in his yard. I feel like you can picture this all so well. Yeah, absolutely.

I feel like you can see this neighborhood in your head. Oh yeah, so Richie told Harry, I'm looking for my sister, like, Have you seen her now? As luck would have it, Harry actually did see her just a few minutes earlier as she was headed into the family. Or the excuse me as she was headed into the home of the Golub family.

GoLUB Yeah, yeah, thank you. We just looked it up.

You were just looking it up. I've been saying it one way in my head, so I was like, Oh my God, don't say it that way. And the way that you were saying, it was the way I read it too. So I hate when you get a pronunciation in your own head and then you find the real one. And you're like, Well, shit, my head is going to say the other one, yep.

So Golub, Golub, so the Golub family. They lived next door to Harry, Okay?

I'm Dan Taberski. In 2011, something strange began to happen at the high school in Leroy, New York. I was like, at my locker and she came up to me and she was like, stuttering, super bad. I'm like, stop f***ing around. She's like, I can't.

A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms and spreading fast, like doubling and tripling. And it's all these girls with a diagnosis. The state tried to keep on the down low. Everybody thought I was holding something back.

Well, you were holding something back intentionally. Yeah, yeah, well, yeah, no, it's hysteria.

It's all in your head, it's not physical. Oh my gosh, you're exaggerating. Is this the largest mass hysteria since the Witches of Salem, or is it something else entirely?

Something's wrong here, something's not right. Leroy was the new dateline, and everyone was trying to solve the murder. A new limited series from Wondery and Pineapple Street Studios, Hysterical Follow Hysterical on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

You can binge all episodes of Hysterical early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery+.

Experience In Person The unsettling, true stories behind the Dr. Death podcast at Exhibit C Live presents Dr. Death a closer look. This live tour experience brings you face to face with accounts of doctors who caused irreparable harm. The system that failed to protect their patients and the heroes who stopped them.

You'll hear from me Laura Beale, reporter and host of the Dr. Death Podcast, along with our panel of experts and whistleblowers. It's hosted by suspects Matthew Scher. It's an important evening with one of the most iconic true crime podcasts of all time. Don't miss your chance to be part of the conversation.

Exhibit C Live presents Dr. Death A Closer look. Tickets go on sale August 9th, so get your truest true crime fans together and get tickets before they sell out.

So Harry and Richie went to the Gollum's front door and they rang the bell, but nobody answered. So Harry just went back to his front yard and Richie returned home. And figured, you know, Kelly will be back soon, This is unlike her, but I'm sure she'll be back, poor Richie. So when he got back at home, he did call his dad to say Kelly had left him alone. And had said that she was going to see a friend, but had actually gone to the Gollum's house.

Now, he explained that he had knocked on the Gollum's front door, but nobody answered. So Richard told his son Go back up to that house and quote, beat on the door and call out for your sister. Oh man, so he was already feeling like, nervous about this. Alarm bells were already going off.

Oh, I'm so stressed out for this family, it's horrific. So, after he hung up, Richie looked up the Gollum's number in the phone book and tried to call the family several times, but he never got an answer. I'm 38, I know.

And just like picturing him, like pulling out the phone book and being like, Okay, like, I have to figure this out. So he started banging on, or so, after he looks up and calls and doesn't get any answer, he goes over to the house and just starts banging on the front door. Calling out Kelly's name, but not getting any kind of response. But at the same time as he's doing this, he can hear loud music coming from inside of the house. Oh, God, yeah.

So he assumed that someone was home and just couldn't hear him. So since he didn't get any response at the door, he just started pacing on the sidewalk. My God, this poor child calling out to his sister. And he was saying that the dog had gotten loose and he needed help. That wasn't true. But he knew that if Kelly thought that the dog had gotten out, then she would come out from wherever she was.

That would get her to move, exactly that would get her to move, but still getting nothing, this poor baby.

I know both of these poor babies seriously. So after waiting a little while longer, just pacing on the sidewalk, he went back home and waited for his mom. So Victoria returned home a little after 5 p.m. and she was really surprised to find out that Kelly still hadn't come back home.

It was again, very, very unlike Kelly to be any kind of irresponsible. So it hadn't quite raised alarm bells just yet. But the fact that Kelly was still missing was puzzling. They were like, This is weird. So Victoria started calling around to Kelly's friends and figured she'd find Kelly with one of them. But nobody in her circle had seen her since she left school early that afternoon.

So Victoria keeps calling whoever she could think of, and Richard joins in, too, and he gets back. What they're getting, like radio silence, or just like, no helpful tips at all. Oh man, no one had seen Kelly. Now it got to the point where Victoria is getting more and more concerned, so she starts going door to door, being like, Is Kelly here?

Have you seen Kelly? like, had anybody seen her? So she gets to Kelly's friend Sharon Stonnell's house? And Sharon told Victoria that she had seen Kelly earlier that day. And just like Harry had told Richie, Kelly was going into the Golub's house down the street.

I'm so stressed out right now, I know. So, after several attempts to reach anybody at the Golub House, by phone or in person, Richard finally got through to the mother, Elizabeth Golub, a little after 6 p..m. But she said that she had been out afternoon and, as far as she knew, Kelly hadn't been in their house at all that day. So the dad, Richard, is really frustrated, frustrated, seeing as all roads seem to go back to the Golub's house. But now they're saying they haven't seen Kelly.

It's like, No, where the hell is she? Oh my God, he must have wanted to barge into that house, Oh my God.

I can't even imagine, I can just feel it for him. It's like, on your street, like you are looking at that house, it's your neighbor, exactly.

You want to just like, break down the door. So he was frustrated, being like, What the hell, yeah? And seeing as all roads were leading back to that house, he asked if he could speak with John Jay, John Jay, the Golub's 14-year-old son, God Johns.

I know what is going on, I know, but John Jay, he said he hadn't seen Kelly in a few days, actually. So Richard didn't press the boy any further, but he did sense a nervous tone in John Jay's voice that suggested he was not being entirely truthful.

Oh, good, so. The rest of that evening was spent searching for Kelly, going from one friend to another. Just desperately hoping that their daughter was hiding out somewhere, nervous that she was going to be in trouble for walking out on responsibilities, like just holding on to any hope they possibly could. Now let's talk a little bit about the Golub family. Most of the families on Horton Road were, like, actively involved in each other's lives and community events, and they all kind of engaged with each other. But the Golubs were among a small group of neighbors who, even though they were polite enough, they preferred to keep to themselves.

The father, John Golub, Sr.

He ran Getty Gas station in town and he didn't really like to hang out with the neighbors. He didn't like to go to block parties, barbecues. He just kind of kept to himself and worked on his car or his boat, you know, yeah.

Now, his wife, Elizabeth. She was a little bit more active in the community and more familiar with the neighbors. But she liked hanging out with her own friends and acquaintances at church or at the Keystone Yacht Club. That was her kind of deal, that was her gym. Yeah, so the family had moved to Horton Road a little over 20 years earlier, actually, and that was all there was to it.

Okay, now. The Golubs had three children Adele was their oldest, and she had gone off to college, married and started a family with her husband in Manhattan. So she's not really a player in this at all. Then there was 21-year-old Robert and 14-year-old John Jay.

They both lived at home, still with their parents. In 1989. Robert was an unemployed bodybuilder. He had graduated high school but didn't want to go to college and was just kind of living at home. Okay, yeah.

He spent his time at the Maximum Health and Fitness Center, where he would, quote, often put in up to three hours a day at the gym. Cool, like, that's a little excessive, bro. Yeah, he was 5'3, so he was very focused on looking as big as he possibly could.

And aside from the gym, he would just be at home in the family's basement, or working on his tan at the nearby. Tan your booty. This all sounds incredibly healthy. I don't see anything wrong with it. Totally I love that.

That place is called Tan your Booty, tan your Booty. like, imagine opening a business called Tan your Booty. It's literally just like, tan your butt, tan your butt, tan your ass. Should've named it that missed opportunity.

Right now, like his brother, 14-year-old John, Jay was rather unremarkable, to be honest. He was a freshman in high school, but most of the time he skipped class to smoke weed with his friends. Cool, yeah.

Relatable, also relatable in general. He was known to the neighbors as a troublemaker, and he definitely was not the sort of person that anybody expected Kelly to be hanging out with. It was weird that she was even at the Golub's house in the first place. But for some reason or another, Robert, the older brother, he was under the impression that Kelly and John Jay were dating, actually.

He later told police I saw them on the block, I could tell I could see it in their eyes. Whoa damn.

That's impressive. Like, I don't know about that. I could see it in their eyes from down the block, like shit.

Okay, yeah. But no one in Kelly's family or any part of her friend group had any idea or knowledge that she was dating John Jay. And as far as anybody really knew, they barely even knew each other. That's strange.

Weird, right? Yeah, that's very weird. I don't know if maybe it was like a thing where they came from different friend groups, and maybe they did have crushes on each other, yeah.

Maybe that absolutely could have happened, I don't know enough to say one way or the other. That's kind of like an inference that I made based off of everything I read. Because I just don't know why Kelly ended up in the house that day.

Yeah, and it seems like John Jay is the one that called, because the caller was John. Yeah, unless Robert called and said he was John, that's entirely possible.

That absolutely could have happened. But with John Jay's nervousness, I'm like, So you invited her over and now, you know, she's missing? Yeah, what did you see? what didn't you see?

That's the thing. It's like, are you nervous because of that, because you were the one who did the inviting, or are you nervous because you know that somebody used your name? And it's your brother, exactly?

Exactly now, as far as the neighbors knew, the Golub, or, sorry, the Golubs. That's how I was reading it in my head, I was going to say, that's how you were reading it in your head. That's how it was. I feel that the Golubs, as far as anybody knew, they kept a nice and neat, tidy home.

But they only ever saw the home from the outside. When the police did eventually make their way inside of this house, they found it cluttered with debris that officers and other witnesses would repeatedly describe as clutter. Clothes, knickknack, knickknacks and trash filling every room of the house. It was essentially like a hoarder house, but there was trash. And just that stresses me out so much. Well, and it's really sad because obviously that's a mental illness.

That's where that all stems from, but the kids having to live in that environment, well, that's the thing. It's like, there's kids and then I'm thinking about Kelly in there and that's like a lot of anger. It just adds to the stress of everything.

And it was a far cry from her home, where she had grown up, right? So Richard and Victoria. They spent most of that Friday evening, like I said, making calls, walking around the neighborhood, looking for Kelly, just panicking more and more as every hour passed the next morning, the search for Kelly continued.

Richard revisited all the places he previously looked for his daughter, including the Golub's home and, Wait, the Golub's home, Golub Christ, sorry.

It's so hard. No, I totally. I'm not faulting you at all. It's when you read it in your head. I've done that so many times, it drives you nuts.

The Golub's House And when Elizabeth Golub invited the family into the foyer of the home. Richard and Victoria were actually shocked by the mess that just stretched from one room to the next. Damn. Richard explained again that several people had seen his daughter go into their home the previous afternoon and no one had seen her leave. So, Elizabeth, that's a problem, my guy.

Yeah, so Elizabeth was like, I'm sorry, I was running errands. I really did not see Kelly here, but let me go. Wake up, John, So she wakes up, John. And he said, Nope, I haven't seen her in a few days. So they were completely out of options at this point.

And Richard and Victoria had to return home and call the police at this point to report Kelly missing. Oh, break my heart, awful a call.

You never, ever, ever, ever. Oh, I can't even fathom it. No, so. Thomas McVetie, of the Juvenile Aid Bureau of the Nassau County Police Department. He was the first one to see the case come in, and he returned Richard and Victoria's call. Now, after doing the usual due diligence in cases of missing children, calling friends, checking the usual hangouts, yada, yada, yada. He went to Kelly's house on Horton Road and he sat down with Richard and Vicki and went through all the usual questions.

Again, explaining You know, sometimes kids take off for a while, but they usually return. The classic, the whole nine, the classic, the classic. And Victoria was like, No.

She literally said, Not Kelly, Kelly doesn't do this. Yeah, parents, a lot of parents do know their kid. Imagine that.

Yeah, now. Richard and Victoria explained that. Several neighbors again had seen their daughter go into the Golub's house around 3.15 the previous day, but nobody in the Golub house says they saw her. So what the fuck? How, how?

What the fuck, yeah, now? They also explained that as far as they knew, their daughter had no relationship with anybody in that house. And as far as they knew again, no reason to go in there in the first place. Yeah, it doesn't make any sense to me.

No, so McVitie and his partner left their house and started in the direction of the Golub's home. But as they came up the walkway, they actually were stopped by Elizabeth Golub and John Jay, who were just leaving Sharon Stonel's house. Now inside. So they eventually made their way inside to their house. The detective sat down with Elizabeth and her younger son and started to explain why they were there now. John Jay told the detectives that he did know Kelly. But again didn't see her the previous day and couldn't think of a reason why she would come to their house.

Okay, weird, yeah. So McVitie asked if anybody else was in the house that they could speak with at that point. And John Jay disappeared for a moment and then came back with his brother Robert, who was accompanied by, like, a random friend, hmm.

Now, Robert told the detectives he knew who Kelly was, but hadn't seen her in quite some time. He said he'd been home all day the previous day. And that he just played video games with his brother and two of his brother's friends that afternoon. I don't believe you. And then, he said. After they were finished playing video games, John, Jay and his two friends left to play basketball, and Robert stayed back. Now. McVitie, the detective, he was like, I don't know, like, something about this kid.

Yeah, he seems nervous, something's off here. And he noticed that. Every time Robert would answer a question about the previous afternoon, he would subtly look at his brother, almost like he was trying to confirm what he was saying. So the detective just came right out and said, Why do you keep looking at your brother?

I love that he goes good. Why not just answer the question straight without help, make him ask, make him answer it?

So they finally separated the two of them. And after doing that, the detectives left the house and went across the street to talk to Sharon Stonel. Now, Sharon said, Yep, I saw Kelly the previous day, I saw her go into that house. But this time, they learned that Harry Finney, who had also seen Kelly go into the house, told Sharon. It was John Jay who opened the door and invited the girl inside.

So John was lying, he had seen her, I didn't, and I honestly was thinking, like, all right, maybe, maybe he hadn't. I was very in the lead a little bit.

You were because I was really thinking he was maybe just nervous, because he knew what was going on but hadn't seen her. He saw her, I don't know if he saw everything, but he saw her.

It's hard, I'm going to ask you what you think at the end. This is just terrible. Yeah, it's horrific. So up to that point, McVeady had no reason to believe that anybody was lying to him.

But this new information suggested that no one in the Gollup house was being truthful at all. Oh man, so he called her back up. He explained the situation to his supervisor, and he said he wanted to search the Gollup home. And he said, I believe that's where the investigation is.

Oh man, so. Under normal circumstances, the search would have required a warrant, which, as we definitely know, it would have taken some time to procure. But wanting to be, thankfully, as helpful as she could, Elizabeth actually consented to a search. Wow, yeah.

So she really had, I don't think, so absolutely no idea is what it sounds like. No, I don't think she did at all.

Yeah, so she invited the detectives back into the home and she signed the form Boom consent. So now they had to call in backup to conduct this whole search.

So backup had arrived. McVeady, John Gollup Sr. and a uniformed officer were making their way through the house and they started making their way into the basement. And McVeady was absolutely shocked at the amount of garbage and clutter all over the place, especially in the basement. He would later tell the jury that the basement was so cluttered it quote unquote hampered their investigation.

Wow, yeah. And once they were in the basement, McVeady spotted a small door in the basement that was blocked by a large steamer trunk. Which prompted him to ask, like, what the fuck that was about now? John, like the father, told the officers that the trunk was just for storage and they were like, OK, like, can we move it?

And he was like, Yeah, sure, so they move it, and once they did, McVeady kind of shined his flashlight into the darkness. And the light showed that there was a large green sleeping bag that was zippered, oh no, and propped really awkwardly against the wall, almost like there was something inside.

Oh God. They approached the bag and they noticed that it had actually come unzipped near the bottom and partially poking out of it was a pale and bloody human leg. Oh my God, yes.

Now, McVeady immediately secured the scene and called in homicide detectives. The news of the search had already made its way around the neighborhood. And a ton of the neighbors on Horton Road had come out to their yards and their driveways to see what was going on. Including Richard and Victoria Tinius. So not wanting the news to reach them before he could. McVeady literally made a beeline to this couple so he could tell them himself what had happened. And Victoria just started screaming, Oh my God, like, How do you even?

How do you? Even? I have like chills all over my body right now. I can't, I can't imagine, and I don't even want to.

No, no one should ever imagine that. I just want to give, like her parents, the biggest hug because they look like they look like new Englanders, they do. I was just looking at pictures of them and I was just like, Oh my God, they're breaking my heart.

They just look like your friend's parents. yeah, they really do, you know, and like, who care, yeah.

A lot. And like, you would go over their house and like, talk to them while you're hanging out with your friend, you know, like that kills me. They're just like everyday people.

Yeah, and something absolutely fucking horrible happened. No, Siri, are you kidding me right now, man? Siri? Oh, she comes at the worst times.

So fucking rude, Siri. I really was Jesus. Back to the seriousness that was, I think that was like something was like, hey, break the tension real quick.

Honestly, it's getting deep, honestly, but here we are, we're back.

And we're back. So, Detective Lane arrived at the Golub house around noon that same day and spoke to Elizabeth and John Sr. while they waited for the medical examiner to arrive.

She struck him with her motor vehicle, she had been under the influence, and then she left him there. In January 2022, local woman Karen Reed was implicated in the mysterious death of her boyfriend, Boston Police Officer John O'Keefe. It was alleged that after an innocent night out for drinks with friends, Karen and John got into a lover's quarrel en route to the next location. What happens next depends on who you ask.

Was it a crime of passion? If you believe the prosecution, it's because the evidence was so compelling. This was clearly an intentional act. And his cause of death was blunt force trauma with hypothermia or a corrupt police cover-up?

If you believe the defense theory, however, this was all a cover-up to prevent one of their own from going down. Everyone had an opinion and after the 10-week trial, the jury could not come to a unanimous decision to end in a mistrial. It's just a confirmation of just how complicated this case is. Law and Crime presents the most in-depth analysis to date of the sensational case in Karen.

You can listen to Karen exclusively with Wondery. join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Scammers are best known for living the high life until they're forced to trade it all in for handcuffs and an orange jumpsuit once they're finally caught. I'm Sachi Cole and I'm Sarah Hagee.

And we're the host of Scamfluencers, a weekly podcast from Wondery that takes you along the twists and turns of some of the most infamous scams of all time. The impact on victims and what's left once a facade falls away? We've covered stories like a shark tank-certified entrepreneur who left the show with an investment but soon faced mounting bills. An active lawsuit filed by Larry King and no real product to push. He then began to prey on vulnerable women, instead selling the idea of a future together while stealing from them. Behind their backs. To the infamous scams of Real Housewives stars like Teresa Giudice, what should have proven to be a major downfall only seemed to solidify her place in the Real Housewives Hall of Fame. Follow Scamfluencers on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

You can listen to Scamfluencers early and ad-free right now on Wondery+.

Now, followed by an interview with John Jr.

He told Detective Lane that he got home from school the previous day at the usual time and he had two friends with him. McDONNeLl Pause for LOLs, Okay?

Literally, McDonnell, who did that? why'd you do that? And Chris Earl? So, he said they played Nintendo for a while. Sign of the times.

What I was just gonna say? And then they hung out with older brother Robert for a bit until he went back up to his bedroom. And when he went back upstairs, they said they went and played basketball. Not long after, according to John Jay, he returned home a little bit after 5 that night. So the crime Scene search unit arrived at the house a little after 1pm and they began what would be an exhausting documentation and search of the basement.

The fact that there was so much garbage and clutter spread everywhere just made it way more difficult. So by the time the medical examiner, Dr. Lone Fanning, arrived, an hour later. Detectives had pulled the sleeping bag out from the closet and carefully laid it out on the basement floor. And when they moved the sleeping bag, Lane and his partner discovered a pile of lace curtains that were soaked in blood. And also a large world war.

I era bayonet lying in a pool of blood next to the curtains. What a bayonet. a bayonet, yes.

What the fuck? And here's the thing this medical examiner is a suburban medical examiner. And I just told you, there's been like, one murder in the past 10 years. Oh man, and now there's a bayonet involved.

Yeah, Dr. Fanning was used to, just like natural cause deaths, you know, and was shocked by what she discovered upon opening the sleeping bag. This is absolutely brutal.

Just so you know, like, if you do need to skip, please do. One of the detectives on the case would later say that Kelly's remains were scarcely recognizable as human. Oh my God, whatever happened to her and the person that did this, like, I'm like, you're not even a human, you're an animal.

Oh God, an animal. Her face had been beaten and was insanely bruised. By the time she was discovered. Her throat had been cut so severely that the wound extended, quote-unquote, nearly to her backbone. Oh my God.

And clumps of her hair had been ripped from her scalp in what appeared to be handfuls. What the fuck? And then? Detectives also discovered in the bag a bra that had been knotted like it had been used as a choking device. She's 13 years old, 13 years old.

Oh my God. Now. At a quick glance, her body suffered the same brutality as her face, if not more. Her torso she had to toe was just covered in bruises, slashes, two human bite marks. Oh my God and her. This is super graphic and absolutely fucking awful.

Her killer had slid her from sternum to groin, exposing her internal organs. Oh my God, like horrific.

That medical examiner, I have to wonder if that was like the last case they ever did. I can't, I would have to have had retired after that. How do you? You couldn't prepare for that in a city setting?

No, never mind in like a suburban, just like in this quiet little street, where, like everybody, oh my god, it really was like, quiet little street.

Everybody gets along like, and she just got a call, like, come, hey, come over. Oh no. How many times did you get a call when you were younger to go to your neighbor's house? What the fuck happened?

Now, holy shit, going back to the scene. A lot of the cuts made to Kelly's torso were consistent with a blade. That was the size and shape of the Bayonet Jesus, but also, at the same time, many of them were not consistent with the bayonet.

Oh, which led detectives to believe that there was a second, or possibly even third weapon missing from the scene. Detective Lane had seen the body when they pulled it from beneath the basement stairs. And he theorized that whoever had done this to Kelly had to be a very large, very powerful person and very vicious, awful, savage person.

Mm-hmm. Now. He'd seen John Jay, who was average height and weight, build for a 14-year-old boy, and he assumed his two friends were, you know, most likely of a similar build. So it seemed very unlikely that any of those three were responsible, yeah.

Possible, but not likely so, based on all the testimony collected that day, the only people in the house that previous afternoon were John, Jay, those two friends, and 21-year-old bodybuilder Robert. Hmm, bodybuilder, Hmm.

So Detective Jack Sharkey was assigned the task of interviewing McDonald and Chris Earl, John Jay's two friends who had been at the house that afternoon, they confirmed that they had all been there. And just like John, Jay said, they played video games before they left to go play basketball. And they also suggested it was pretty likely that it was John who called Kelly and invited her over to the house. Wow. Officers had learned that the boy had, quote-unquote, been sweet on Kelly for years.

Oh, yeah, yeah. And he was the only one in the house that really knew her that day. My God, no. After their interview, both boys actually consented to a polygraph test, and they both passed quote-unquote with flying colors.

Wow, so because they didn't really match like who they thought could have, like, overpowered Kelly and paired that hand-in-hand. With the passing of the lie detector test, it rules them out as suspects. Yeah, that makes sense. Since Donald and Earl were now crossed off the list of suspects, the only two remaining possibilities were John and Robert. But again, since he seemed to lack the physical strength they thought would have been necessary. And since his friends had confirmed that John Jay had been with them that afternoon, Detective Lane decided to focus his attention on the older brother, Robert.

Now, according to Robert, he had woken up around 10 a.

M Because he's a real winner, yeah, on the morning of the 3rd, because he's really killing it.

He's really killing the game. And he said he went to a convenience store to purchase a bodybuilding magazine. Cool because apparently he was very fixated on his one hobby in life. He's so cool.

Yeah, like, wicked cool. And then after he got his magazine, he came right back home, he said. I doubt it, who even knows? So? That afternoon, he spent time with his brother, his brother's friends, and he said, after the younger boys left to play basketball, he went back up to his room. He drank a couple of beers and smoked some weed.

And he said that he had never seen or spoken to Kelly that afternoon. And in fact, he really only knew her well enough. Anyways to say, hi. Hmm, it's like, weird, why was she at our house then?

I totally believe you. But he did say that Kelly had been close with his younger brother, John, and that she, quote, sometimes called the Golub home twice a day to speak to John Jay Okay, so I do wonder if there was like a little bit of like flirtation going on between John Jay and Kelly, yeah.

I don't think John Jay had anything to do with this, to be honest. Okay, in my personal opinion, I don't know, but I don't think so okay.

So when police showed Robert the bayonet used in the attack on Kelly, he said he never owned it and had actually never seen it before. And as far as he knew, nobody in the house did either. Oh, a bayonet just showed up in your house one day, a World War I bayonet, just like essentially an antique.

You just plop it fell in your house, you know? I can't believe that has happened to somebody else. That happened to you too, huh? Yeah, it just showed up at my house, like, who do you think you're fooling, Robert?

Like, you're really looking at investigators and being like, Yeah, I've never seen it. It doesn't belong to anybody in this house, it just lives here. Yeah, it's just yeah, it pays rent.

I don't know, just showed up one day. It doesn't belong to us, like, what, what?

What dude, it's a Bayonet, it's a World War I Bayonet.

That is a relic of years past. And you are telling me that you don't know how it ended up in your house. Lies liar. Yeah, so weirdly. He consented to a polygraph examination.

He was like, Yeah, yeah, I'll take that arrogance. He thought he could beat it, he sure did. He had full-on plans to do that because they did go on with the test, but it had to be called off part way through.

When the examiner noticed that Robert was trying to mess with the results by holding his breath at various points, of course he was. You don't think the examiner is not going to see you holding your breath? Their entire job is to read every single little thing that sets your body off, to make it that you're lying, and you think that holding your breath is going to somehow get past them. It's an examiner.

They examine you, they just watch your ass like, Boy, you dumb, fuck, I'm glad you're dumb, but like shit.

So, while detectives interviewed the rest of the neighbors on Horton Road, the crime scene technicians continued This absolutely crazy job of Just.

Oh my God, the daunting task, the daunting task of because this scene is brutal anyways, and then the added chaos of the crime scene. Now, while they were searching, there were a few significant items found in the basement. There were two briefcases that contained Kelly's clothes that she was wearing the day before.

Random briefcases that's so weird, and a large white t-shirt that appeared to have four semen stains on the front of it. Disgusting, I'll tell you.

Now they don't think she was sexually assaulted. Well, that's good, like pre-mortem, perimortem. yeah, perimortem.

Now, each of the briefcases had some blood smeared on the outside and on the inside. But it was going to take some time to determine whether that had come from Kelly or her killer. So they had their work laid out. Damn now. The autopsy was performed the following day and actually there was a few people in attendance.

There was Detective Richard Wells, the medical examiner, Dr. Thanning, a serologist named Dr. Arlene Colon, and then the chief medical examiner, Dr. Leslie Lukash. Now, thankfully, like, I was just saying. Tests actually found no evidence of semen on the surface of Kelly's body or internally.

That's good. And there was no other signs of sexual assault. Okay, so pre-mortem she was, or perimortem either one, she was not.

She was not okay now. Unfortunately, though, the medical examiner wasn't able to find any fingerprints present on the body. Which is, I'm like, Did you wash her? I know how did that work?

But I don't. Maybe it was because it was so brutal, yeah. But the chief medical examiner, Dr. Lukash, determined the cause of death was blunt force trauma to the skull. But after identifying more than 200 and this is in quotes, 200 discreet blows to her head, the medical examiner had to stop counting.

200 more than 200..

I don't, I, literally my brain isn't computing that, I don't even know how that's possible. The randomness of this act is just like, I don't know if maybe that's why it's one of the most requested cases. It's like, How did this happen?

I'm like, speechless, like 200 had to stop counting at 200, blows to her head. Yeah, like, I don't even know how you do that.

What kind of fucking animal do you have to be? And like, exactly like that is animalistic behavior that is, that's not even of this world, like, I can't even that's not comprehend.

That's not even like demonic, that's like, I'm like, what the fuck, what kind of creature that I know of? That could do that to another person, or to another creature that is so long?

Think about hitting something 200 times? how long that takes? No, I can't imagine. Just think about like, taking your hand and hitting a table 200 times. No, how long that would take and how much energy that would take eventually.

Hours, hours like that is, I'm speechless, I don't even know what to say about that. That's unbelievable.

That's absolutely crazy. A poor girl, I know, and her poor family. Oh, that's oh, her family.

I just, Oh, it's awful. I actually like, have anxiety right now, I know it's like a lot.

That's like, really killing me. So, based on the evidence collected at the scene, Lukasz believed that the blunt force trauma was consistent with the antique rifle found at the scene. But said that the extent of the damage was too great to ever be positive. Wow, she said. I think so, but you could never tell, I mean, you get to 200 blows, you can't fit an instrument there.

Like, you don't know what that was after a certain point, because you're not even seeing distinct wounds at that point. Like, oh my God, now the slicing wound to the neck, to the neck, excuse me, was a match for the Bayonet. But there also appeared to be an indentation, and this is again brutal, an indentation near the wound that until then couldn't be accounted for. Like they were trying to figure out what that was.

So the doctor spent more time examining the blade and then realized that the circular indentation was caused by the knob on the handle of the knife. Which meant that the killer had to quote unquote, lay the blade across Kelly's throat and then stand the full weight of his body on the knife, bouncing up and down.

You have to. I have never heard anything like this, never in my entire life. And you have to hope. And you, like, I have to, like, tell myself that she was gone, she had to have been, she had to have been.

It had to have been, which does not fix any of this, but it, oh my God, I can't. Who does like? We have covered some of the worst, of the worst of the worst, and I cannot compare this killer to anyone I have ever read about. This is just like, like, my arms this entire time are just covered. This is stuff you can't make up.

No, like, this is stuff that if you saw it in a horror movie, you'd be like, who comes up with that?

You'd just be like, no one is like, no one's like that. No, oh my god, no, oh, poor Kellyanne.

And her family? Yeah, to know that your baby went through this. Oh, honestly, like my bleh. I know we're gonna hug her parents.

I'm like, don't even, don't even think, I said that. So, when the examination was complete, Dr. Lukasz concluded that Kelly's murder had to have been committed by somebody in a frenzy. Yeah, to say the least, yup.

And could only have been done by a quote unquote. Incredibly fit and powerful man, Jesus. So, given the amount of evidence collected at the scene and the story being told by Kelly's body, Detective Lane and Wells kept their attention focused on the most obvious suspect. Robert Gallup right? No Golub, damn it.

Golub, Golub. He was brought into the station at this point for question, or even before that, he was brought into the station for questioning. Actually, on the afternoon that the body was discovered, oh wow, this all happened very quickly.

I was gonna say, this probably happened so fast, mm-hmm, so. John and Elizabeth had been cooperating with police up to this point. But now. A lawyer for the family had instructed the two brothers to refrain from answering any questions beyond the statements they'd already given to the police. Damn so.

Days passed without an arrest, and the public was starting to grow anxious that there might literally never be another resolution. And Kelly's parents, Richard and Victoria, must have been losing their goddamn minds. Seriously, because you know what happened, she went into that house, she was found there. So why hasn't somebody been arrested yet?

Exactly, I would have been like, Oh my God, I'd be losing my fucking mind, and they were now.

In the meantime, forensic tests were being conducted. And the results, I mean, remember, this is the 80s. The results were very slow to return. But when they did come, they seemed to confirm that Robert was involved in the killing. But there were complications for one thing. There was a handprint discovered near the body that did belong to Robert, but it was discovered in his home, which made it a lot less significant. ugh.

And then the blood smears on. The cases where Kelly's clothes had been found were also determined to be Robert's blood. But given that, again, it was his home. There was no way for analysts to determine whether it was left there the day of the killing or a day or two before. Like, yeah, I don't know who would think that that got left there a day or two before, but....

But sure, to bring it to court, you gotta go beyond a reasonable doubt now. When Robert was brought in for questioning on the day of the murder, he actually had several small cuts on his right hand. Oh, but those cuts, they said, showed no signs of having bled recently.

Hmm, which is weird, but I'm like, I mean, how do you really determine that? Like, if he has cuts on his hand, he has cuts on his hand. Yeah, he does.

Right, like, yeah, how can you tell if they bled recently, if they're red?

I mean, you could really. The only thing I can think of is like, what stage of healing they're in? Hmm, that's really all I could....

Yeah, ....say about that, I guess I don't really know, because I'm like, they didn't like, were they open cuts?

Like, if they're open cuts, then.

Because then you could be like they were, they're scabbed over, they're healing, right?

They're in the process of healing, but the way they put it as no signs of having recently bled. I'm like, huh, that's a weird standard? Yeah, it's like he would have washed that, right, exactly.

So, essentially, while he may have looked very guilty, a good lawyer could have explained a bulk of the physical evidence. As to being. No different than skin cells, fingerprints and trace fluids that everybody leaves around their house every day, which is really gross, that you like, it really is gross, don't think about that.

But on March 24th, nearly three weeks after Kelly's body had been discovered in the basement. Investigators did finally feel like they had enough evidence to make an arrest and Robert was arrested. Wow, now. It was a step in the right direction, but still, people in the community were pissed off, like they were very frustrated.

Kelly's uncle, Robert, told the press We feel only a fraction of relief about the arrest. There are so many unanswered questions that are hurting right now. Four people in the house and no one heard anything. Yeah, that's what's so shocking to me.

I'm like, what the fuck is going on in that house? No one heard anything. Yeah, like, is the basement soundproof? That kind of beating?

But then you think about the loud music and I'm like.

Oh, the loud music. Is that why nobody heard anything? Because it was so loud that Richie could hear it outside. Oh my god.

That adds such a different layer to this. It's like a horror film it is. This is like, so bad it is.

So those unanswered questions and frustrations grew exponentially in the time between the arrest and the trial. While Robert spent his days in prison, he was like lifting weights in the yard or preparing in his cell for trial. A lot was going on back home. Reporters, neighbors, strangers were harassing John and Elizabeth Golub nonstop. Their home was being referred to as a murder house. Because that's what it was.

And the harassment had actually become so intense that they had to send John Jay off to a private boarding school. Oh wow, which if he had nothing to do with this, then you'd feel bad that that happened. It's just so weird. And then Kelly's family claimed that, at the same time, that the Golubs were trying to intimidate them.

And then the Golubs claimed that they were being prevented from freely coming and going to their home. And Elizabeth claimed that actually, she was being sexually harassed around town at this point. So it is a whole full-blown mess. It is like the neighbors that hate each other.

Oh, the Hatfields and McCoys, thank you. It's that literally I loved that little like hand motion you were doing. I knew it would get you.

Just flowy hands and I was like, got it, you were like, I don't know what you're saying. Nailed it the Hatfields and the McCoys.

Yeah, that's exactly what this was, that makes sense. And eventually, the tension had become so disruptive, like fights had broken out and everything. That a police officer had to be regularly parked on Horton Road to intervene if necessary. Wow.

It got that bad, which is sad, yeah, and you can understand why it got that bad, of course, now. While all of that was going on in the neighborhood, Robert's defense lawyer, John Lewis, He was hard at work, trying to get a ton of critical evidence excluded from trial.

Of course, yeah. Prior to trial, a Frye hearing was held to determine whether the DNA evidence collected at the scene. Mostly from the outside of the briefcases and the palm print on the wall. They wanted to see it in this trial, if it would be allowed at the murder trial. Now, for those that don't know, because I didn't know. A Frye hearing, according to Cornell Law School Quote, determines the admissibility of an expert's scientific testimony and other types of evidence. Oh.

So back then, you weren't seeing a lot of cases where DNA was being used? Yeah, in fact, Kelly's was actually one of the first cases in America where DNA was used. Wow, really.

Yeah, isn't that crazy? That's interesting now. So they had to have that hearing to see what was going to be admissible and what wasn't okay.

So John Lewis argued that DNA science was still in its infancy and it was unreliable. Oh, DNA evidence didn't know, but the prosecution presented several experts who testified that quote. DNA fingerprinting is a reliable scientific theory that is generally accepted in the scientific community. And that the six-step procedure used to extract and analyze DNA samples is also generally accepted in the scientific community.

I love this. That they're like, DNA is generally accepted in the scientific community. They're like, So there, yeah, it feels all right. So there were more pre-trial hearings that took place in mid-August, and the tensions were insanely high.

There was a lot of fighting going on between the families and that's why there were fights within the courtroom. I would be throwing heads, Oh yeah.

I'd be furious. People had to be escorted out and then more problems were to come in October, when the defense attorney, John Lewis, was thrown off the case. Oh so, he actually got into an argument with the judge that was presiding over the case, Judge Marvin Goodman and the defense attorney. Lewis told the judge that he wasn't prepared to go to trial that month, and he wanted to push out to January to have more time to prepare. Oh, yeah, yeah.

Who gives a shit about the families that have to sit here and deal with this shit? Thank you exactly. Let's push it out because I'm not ready, I'm not ready.

Sorry, sorry, you've had plenty of time. Yeah, if you don't have a good case, it's because he did it.

Yeah, the end, the end, so says I, so says I.

I would tap my little gavel. But the judge denied that request, basically saying everything that we did and saying he hadn't provided a legal reason for it. So like, No, just because you're not prepared isn't my fault. That's probably exactly what he said.

Yeah, but Lewis lost it. He was pissed about that and he said he wasn't going to be forced to go to trial. And that Goodman could hold him in contempt or throw him in jail. And he's like, got it? And Goodman was like, I'm not going to do either of those things.

You're just not going to work on this case, I'm just going to go ahead and throw you right off. You're gone, you're done, you're done.

And he was replaced with Salvatore Marinello. Hopefully, I said that, right. So. Robert's trial for the second degree murder of Kellyanne began on February 15th, 1990. Yeah, wow.

And it took place in. I don't have time to look this up. Manola, New York Yeah, totally so. In opening statements, the prosecutor, Daniel Cotter, laid out the extent of the evidence, including the massive DNA evidence that linked Robert to the murder. My God.

He also detailed the extent of Kelly's injuries, and he paid particular attention to the mutilation of the genitals and the buttocks. Because that's so fucked up. She had been, like I said, completely like, eviscerated, eviscerated.

Yeah, and one of the bite marks was actually to her backside, like on her bum. Oh my god, you fucking animal. And happened post-mortem, holy shit.

Like, not even an animal, an animal wouldn't do this. I was just gonna say, I don't even know what to compare this fucker to, and that's the thing it's like, not even an animal, not even a demon.

Doesn't exist. I don't know what to call you an entity unto itself, truly an entity unto itself, seriously.

So, Cotter told the jury, because of all this, it is fair to assume that this is a sexual assault by a male. Ugh, then it was the defense's turn, Salvatore told the jury. The prosecution expects you to make judgments through inferences. And basically told the jury that the evidence was highly scientific, very confusing, and they couldn't trust it.

I'm obsessed with the fact that they were like, DNA. This is like a little too science-y for me everybody. This is gonna be like biology class, and you're gonna be very confused. Yeah, let's throw that shit right out. We don't need science.

Science Who facts Are you guys looking for facts? Fuck that?

Like, what? No, we don't want scientific facts in here. There's hard-to-pronounce words. Yes, of course.

It makes me sad, like, Are you guys? are you alright? right? exactly? Are you kidding me? Science is not a reliable thing in a trial.

Can you imagine like 1990, I feel like, wow, I was only born six years later, Jesus.

Like you were.

Five Wow, that's it. I'm like, you're old. It was 1990, right?

Yeah, yeah, five, and they're literally like, DNA, what's that?

Sounds gross. That was in your lifetime? Yeah, that's upsetting. Isn't that upsetting? That's really upsetting.

But, like I said, this was a time in America where DNA really hadn't been used in a ton of court cases. Yeah, to get a guilty verdict anyways, yeah, it's hard to say. So he was definitely hoping that all this scientific garbage.

Oh yeah, hullabaloo was going to go over the jury's head, but just in case it didn't. He also tried to put doubt in their minds about everybody there that day and told the jury. There were three other boys in the house that day who could have done this right. They were there right around the time of the murder. I'm like, there are three 14-year-olds.

They are all the same size. Yeah, I don't think so. Truly no.

Now, luckily, prosecutor Cotter there was able to shoot down that argument by pointing out how unlikely it would be for three 14-year-old boys to commit. Quote a savage, vicious act been covered with blood. And then go calmly play basketball, yeah, because again, they literally have an alibi, yeah. And then, to prove his point even further, that it wasn't one of these younger boys. He explained that one of the boys placed a call to his mom from the Golub house at about 3.21 to go tell her that he and his friends were leaving to play basketball.

Hmm. So I wonder, because that phone call meant Kelly entered the house shortly after 3.20 p...m. I would say that she would have been in the house alone with Robert. Yeah, so that makes me wonder, was it John Jay that called, or was it Robert saying he was John Jay? Knowing that his brother had been maybe like, flirting with Kelly? And they had all gone out to go play basketball and he saw some kind of opportunity that, to me, that's what's up.

That makes sense, right to me. It makes sense that this little fucker would pretend to be his little brother to lure her to that house. That's what I think, because I don't see, I don't know anything about this family.

I don't know anything about these, this pig and his brother, uh-uh. But I don't know if it makes sense. That like this kid would just lure her there, especially if he liked her, if he was sweet on her, exactly like they had some kind of thing.

And then he's gonna leave. Like, if anything, you would think he would if he was the one that called her, I feel like, and if she liked him, they would have gone and played basketball together. Yeah, you know, yeah, it's straight.

And to me, it feels more like this guy pretending, Yeah, definitely, I agree, because this feels cunning as fuck. That's my theory.

Yeah, is that he obviously saw Kelly around town, probably developed some kind of weird fucking fascination, because he's a figured this out, he's a fucking troll.

Oh, he's beyond even pig man, beyond words, true pig man Yuccas.

Yeah, Yuccas McGee is the new name, truly. Now. Over the course of the next few weeks, jurors were presented with a whole slew of information and evidence. I can't imagine having to sit on this jury.

No, I can't. Having to hear about those injuries in real time would be outrageous. And they did have to because the doctor. The medical examiner, took the stand to testify about the extent of the injuries and placed the death. Somewhere between 330 and 820. I'm thinking it was closer to the 320 range of things.

And the doctor also testified that while a lot of the slice injuries were caused by the rusty bayonet, there were others caused by at least two additional instruments that were unaccounted for. Then another expert, Excuse me. The serologist Dr. Arlene Colon, explained how DNA can be used to trace blood or other fluids back to a single individual. Okay, so she explained this to the jury and they were able to comprehend this.

They were able to understand crazy now, according to this doctor. The investigators had found several spots of Robert's blood mixed with or adjacent to Kelly's blood. Meaning that quote Kelly's killer had his own blood on his hands when he was attempting to clean up after Kelly's death. Which makes sense, of course, it does.

Like, he's not coming out of there with no scratches on his hands. Absolutely not so. The analysis of the palm print that was discovered on a piece of crown molding near the basement closet was also a match for Robert. Excuse me. And a crime scene analyst testified that the print was most likely left there very shortly after Kelly was murdered.

He probably leaned up against the wall to move her. So, after closing arguments on April 2nd, 1990, the jury deliberated for a full day before returning a verdict of guilty. Good, not even going to make you wait for that good.

When the verdict was read, the courtroom literally erupted into screams and cries from Kelly's family. Like, just they were so happy, but then that happiness turned to anger. And they were like, like it was just way too much for everybody involved. How do you even wrap your brain around it? So, while that was all going on and like, everybody's like trying to figure out even how to feel about this. Robert is just sitting there with literally zero emotion. He's a beast.

He's beyond, beyond now. He returned, returned, I was going to say, reentered. He returned to court on June 1st for sentencing. And in a surprising turn of events, 11 of the 12 jurors who sat on the case actually asked to attend the sentencing hearing. They wanted to be there.

And so did four of the alternates who had also sat through the trial. They wanted to see this motherfucker sentenced. I don't blame them. The court also received over a thousand letters from the public demanding that he be sentenced to life in prison. So he was given the opportunity to speak before he was sentenced.

Which I'll never understand why we let that happen me either. And he did take the chance to say that he was innocent. Shut the fuck up. It's weird that your blood was everywhere, though.

Yeah, that's strange. And he told the jury, I did not kill Kelly Antonis, who let Kelly into our home, who could have had any motive. These are questions I have to answer.

These are questions the jury should have considered. Oh, okay, you really thought you did something there? Scold the jury, like, what?

For sure. He then went on to scold the jury. He said that there was a police conspiracy to convict him. The jury was against him. They hadn't behaved properly.

The crime scene technicians and analysts who had processed the scene were also all out to get him. Blah, blah, blah. Nobody cares that much about you, my friend. No, so when he finished with that load of malarkey, the judge Goodman, who I love, told him. The acts which you committed in this case are by far the most atrocious that I have ever experienced in my 17 years as a judge.

And the manner in which you killed Kelly Antonis and mutilated her body surpasses the worst murders known to this county. Yeah, no dictionary contains sufficient words to describe the brutality of your acts. Unfortunately, the sentence option given to me by all of our laws falls short of the sentence which you truly deserve. You are hereby sentenced to a maximum term of life and to a minimum term of 25 years.

Which would not even be slightly enough, so 25 years to life like not enough, No, now. Robert appealed his conviction in 1993, thinking that that was really going to move anybody.

It didn't, he said. It was on the grounds that the evidence was mishandled. The analysis of the DNA was improper. Because he knows how to do that. Oh yeah, and the um or no, that was just it. But the appeals court upheld the conviction.

Now, he maintained his innocence until his case came up for consideration by the Parole Board in 2013.

And he had a hearing, and he finally confessed to the murder. Oh shit. And he said that he had killed Kellyanne quote in a rage due to his use of a ridiculous amount of anabolic steroids.

I knew it, yup, I knew it, but like, I've seen people on steroids, you've seen people on steroids.

That is more than just steroids, you have a beast that lives inside of you. I was just going to say that was then fed those steroids, that was fed those. That's a perfect way of saying it.

Exactly, it is very much already inside of you 100, it is inside every cell in your body that you were able to do that anabolic steroids did not create.

That did not cause you to do that. No, they allowed that beast to come out, exactly.

That's all of us, exactly. He claimed that he never meant to kill her. Shut the fuck up, Robert, shut the fuck up.

The extent of her injuries. Oh my God, and you never meant to kill her. I want to put a boot in your fucking face. Are you kidding me?

You never meant to kill her. Shut the fuck up, like, go back to your tiny little self, say nothing, and spend the rest of your days remembering what you did to her. Knowing full well that you are going to a place that is literally worse than hell.

I hope she haunts you every day, until the minute you die, every single second, truly of every single day.

I hope Kelly haunts you, he said. He was remorseful. Oh, shut the fuck up, I bet the fuck you are. No, you're not.

Because you want to get out of prison, you don't exist, you're not a real thing. No, you don't have the same shit that everybody else does.

Remorse is not, it's a vocabulary word to you, It's not a feeling. If you can do that to a human. There is no part of me that believes you are capable of remorse. No, not one part of me that believes that.

Absolutely not, no. Luckily, state parole officials were as unconvinced as we are, and Robert has since been denied parole on two different occasions. I hope they tell him to go fuck himself every single time. I don't think they're allowed to, but they probably say it as you walk in.

Literally as he walked out, I'd be like, Don't forget Robert, go fuck yourself every single time. remember last time, go fuck yourself if you haven't done it yet, yep.

Go fuck yourself, Robert, literally into oblivion. I hate this pig. This is like the worst, one of the worst.

The most brutal ever. I think I can, I mean, that is, I don't think I could ever cover another case like this. Now, in the year since Kelly's murder, her parents, Richard and Victoria, they hold a celebration on her birthday, March 5th, every single year to remember her. And still, their neighbors from Horton Road join them. And now it's gone like way.

Above and beyond that, people join all the time. Amazing and from all over. And in 2021, they had a memorial unveiled at a park in Valley Stream, which honors the memory of Kelly.

Oh, I love that. Now Robert remains in prison, he still hopes that he's going to get some kind of parole, He's not going to. I hope that you slowly rot.

But Richard and Victoria, and countless other members of Valley Stream, are locked and loaded with victim impact statements and letters demanding he remain in prison in the interest of public safety. Yeah, like, not only just for their peace of mind. Like not wanting to see him ever again, but he should never be allowed around people ever again. If you can do that one time, I can't fucking imagine what you would do if you, like, didn't live in your parents house and were left to your own devices.

Yes, I can't even fathom, because you did that in your parents home. Well, that's what's wild to me. Just went down to the basement.

No, I can't like, what the fuck, I literally can't. So that is the tragic, tragic, tragic case of Kelly Antonius. I am speechless.

It was very hard to get through. I like, just you just remember being 13, and I can't imagine that happening to, like anybody I knew, at 13 years old, 13 is a baby. I mean, that is, she was just about to. two days later, she would have been 14..

Oh, and right before her birthday, and it's just like that family I can't, and like her poor little brother, that's the thing.

And then to have to, like, go on and like, be okay for Richie. Yeah, like, I can't imagine, I can't imagine, but they seem like the most amazing people.

They really do, oh, I just want to give them a hug. I know that's awful. Yeah, that is awful.

That is a brutal case. I think, Um, were you going to do something? Spooky? Yeah, you know what? I'm going to follow this up with something, maybe like a spooky road or a lake.

Or a lake or something, you'll know, obviously, but like, it's, yeah, there'll be something in there.

Maybe another haunted school? I think we have a whole folder of those. Yeah, we've got a lot of those, so yeah, we'll follow it up with just one spooky yeah.

Haven't done one in a while. Just a little palate cleanser, if you will. Yeah, we're due for one. Yeah, feels right.

Feels good, especially after this. I need it. Yeah, so I need a beat. Yeah, I need a beat.

You know, Oy, so yeah, look out for that. And with that being said, guys, we hope you keep listening and we hope you....

Keep it.

Weird, you know, I'm not saying anything. No, that's it.

Nope, that's a wrap bye, goodbye, love you guys.

Hope you have a great day.

Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at Wondery.

Com slash survey.