The JV Republican Debate (Preview)

Tim, It is great to see you Thomas. Thank you. It's good to see you. I noticed Lovett's gone again. every time I'm here, he's faking a cold. You noticed, that, did you?

Whatever, it's fine, I'm just going to try not to get my feelings hurt about it, but I'm happy to be here with you. I can't think of anyone better. To help us understand how to prepare for one of these debates, how to try to win one of these primaries. As you mentioned, Favreau and Lovett, they're on vacation this week. So we are going to do this whole program together. We're going to go behind the scenes into debate, prep and strategy. And what the hell success looks like in a debate where there's 400 goobers on stage, where there's burgums, Doug, et cetera?

I'll talk about Super Pacs, how they're playing a role in this cycle. Brutal reporting about Ron DeSantis and then Tim and I. We're unhealthily obsessed with Vivek Ramaswamy and how he's gaining traction, Vivek, we'll cover that, Vivek, sorry, 20 minutes on Vivek.

You better be pronouncing his name, right, you know why? Because Vivek the fake, as we learned, yeah, it rhymes Jeff Rowe and Super Pac.

And then, Tim, we got to do some donor fan fiction. Because you tweet a lot about how you want to provide a service to donors. That I'm not going to get into. And I know a lot of Republican donors listening to this podcast, this will be a good way to get my message out to them. Well, Chris Christie asked at least two or three of his friends to start. But let's start with this new Iowa poll, because what everyone needs to know about this poll? It was done for NBC News and the Duane Register by a pollster named Ann Seltzer. Who is the best in the business?

No one questions that. So we really trust these numbers, though of course they're a snapshot in time the time being August, so here's the top line numbers. Tim, 42, Donald Trump, 19%.

Ron DeSantis 9, Tim Scott 6, Nikki Haley 6, Mike Pence 5, Chris Christie 4%.

Vivek Ramaswamy The good news for everyone not named Trump is. 52 of caucus goers say their mind is not made up, 40 say their mind is made up, but two-thirds of Trump supporters say their mind is made up. So most of the persuadables are with other people. So Tim this largely tracks....

It's not great, Yeah, it's not great. I think it largely tracks other polls we've seen. Trump is way ahead, but Desantis is doing a little better in Iowa than other places. I guess I'm surprised to see Pence and Christie ahead of Vivek.

That could just be statistical noise, though. What's your takeaway from this poll? Is the DESantis Cup half full? Because 58 of Iowans are not supporting Trump? Yeah, I was expecting a little more Vivek-mentum as well out of this poll, and it's good. This Seltzer thing always triggers me, because back in our Iowa days, we were in Iowa together. At the time, people would wait at night for the Seltzer poll to come out outside the register.

And then, in 2020, it was the Seltzer poll that made us all realize that the Biden election was going to be a little bit closer than we wanted it to be. That was one that keyed an awful lot of panic last time. So it always pretty much in the ballpark and they just put the resources into it. And I don't see this as good news for DESantis, I could see how DESantis people could try to spin it as good news for him. Because it's not as just devastating as all the other information and all the other polling that's been out there about him lately.

But he's still down nearly 20 points. And then when you look at the first plus the second ballot, first choice plus second choice, you got Trump at 52, now it's at 39, so you're like, Oh, we're only down 13. But the whole premise of the case for being able to beat Trump is that you could consolidate the Viveks and the Haley's and the Tim Scott's. Behind one person.

And then that person could maybe have enough to beat Trump. Trump's at 52 with people's first and second choice. And as you mentioned, I just think the most devastating number in this whole thing is that two thirds of Trump's ballot number at 42. Two thirds of them said that they're not looking at anybody else. Yeah, and so he's got, you know, just a little quick math here. 28 locked in.

Based on the Seltzer poll, 28 has been enough to win the Iowa Caucus most years on the Republican side, right, you know, because it's always the first one big field, it's very divided. At 42 Trump, if that's what he ended up getting in the caucus, he would have the biggest vote share since Gerald Ford on the Republican side.

So, you know?

It's not like there was a.

I moved down to New Orleans. You guys are coming to New Orleans, so maybe we're going to be seeing you. But in Louisiana, a poll came out that had Trump at 75 and DeSantis at 10. Okay.

So, you know, it's looking better than in Louisiana, but still not great. could be worse. is what you're saying. still not great. Yeah, so I definitely agree with you, Tim.

I guess you can spin this positive, maybe if you're on DESantis, but you're right. This kind of hardcore floor for Donald Trump, like a hell or high water vote that's not going anywhere. And unless everyone else could consolidate. I don't know how you beat that. The other person I think has got to be a little disappointed is Tim Scott. He's been spending real money on TV in Iowa.

9 is fine, but I mean, it's not going to get you anything, I don't know. That can't be no. And here's the big problem, right? is that there's no other option besides Desantis.

And I think that's actually the best thing DeSantis has going for him, right? You can't beat somebody with nobody. And the anti-trump, you know? 48? Let's say if Trump's at 52, with people having him as the first choice or second choice, that other 48 is split right down the middle, right? It's 24 of people that are super mag. They're just maybe ready to give him the gold watch, but also could be persuaded to vote for him if nobody else emerges.

And then the other 24, like, kind of have begun to dislike him, like, maybe they're not Tim Miller or Bulwark triggered, really looking for somebody else? And so Tim Scott can pull from that 24, but it's tough for him to get into the MAGA 24 and DESantis. The one advantage he had is he was kind of pulling from both and is now struggling with both, right?

Because the more normie Republicans think he went, you know, too far right on cultural issues, and the MAGA Republicans are starting not to trust him. Because Donald Trump's up there every day, you know, calling him desanctimonious and saying he's part of the deep state and blah, blah, blah, right? So he's like losing altitude with both. Those are the two groups that you need to figure out how to unite, and it's just hard to see how Tim Scott does it.

And these, like gauzy ads. It's just, I just don't get it. You know, this is a presidential race, you know, it's like, people get.

People know the candidates, right, like the 32nd meet this candidate, they're a nice guy, they have a positive vision. Like that shit works in house races because you don't know right who the people are.

But at a presidential level, like, they're just these people are just burning their money, especially Iowa caucus goers who are like, super.

About Iowa, right, is there's two or three tickets out of Iowa. That means you don't have to win the Iowa caucuses, you have to exceed expectations. Then you'll get a bounce in the form of a bunch of press coverage and some online fundraising.

And maybe, you know, that takes you into New Hampshire. Ted Cruz won Iowa in 2016, Rick Santorum won Iowa in 2012. Mike Huckabee won in 2008. None of them went on to be president or won the nomination either.

Right, so maybe that makes you feel better if you're a candidate who's struggling right now. But do you think that cliche holds up? This year? If Trump wins Iowa and exceeds what he did last time, now, if Trump wins Iowa, there's one and a half tickets out of Iowa. Trump and friend of the pod, Chris Christie, who will go to New Hampshire and try to beat him in New Hampshire. It's a very different electorate, very unique electorate.

The Christie thing is just, you know, God love them, I guess I kind of hate him actually, but also God love him. For, you know, speaking the truth about Donald Trump, you know, did you see his fave on faith in the Iowa? Yeah, it's real bad. 2860..

So 28 of Republicans like him, 60 don't like him. I bet his numbers might be better among the Democratic electorate in Iowa, or at least close to that 2860. And those are just that's a horrible number. So Christie will go to New Hampshire no matter what.

But if Trump wins, what path is there for anybody else? I was his weakest state. Because it's a caucus, you know, because it's only the super engaged people turn out like Trump does very well among.

Kind of Republicans, people that only vote, you know, only generally turn out to vote in general elections like that. That is a core Trump base. So I he. His numbers in Iowa are worse than they are in New Hampshire, South Carolina, Nevada. Well, we already did Louisiana. So I just, if Trump wins, I let you get this thing is over.

And so you see this whole Mitt Romney convo, that's like, we got to consolidate after New Hampshire, it's like, No, no, guys, I love you got to consolidate now. Or this thing could be basically functionally over January 16, and Trump's got like 50 in polls in South Carolina right now.

By the way, Pence was at 4253.

Fave unfave. So Christie doing worse than the guy people wanted to hang. But we're getting ahead of ourselves. Tim, We're talking about the winner of the Iowa caucuses.

We have some debates coming first. In a past life, you did opposition research, you did communications for candidates, including as JEB's communications director in 2016..

How did you prepare him for these clusterfucks? Was there, like, debate camp? Do you have half of your staff playing different candidates, like, How does that go? Yeah, we did have a debate camp.

And you know, Jeb, I just just right off. I just have a deep affection for him. On a personal level, he's my favorite candidate I ever worked for. Like this was not his wheelhouse. You know, I'm not exactly speaking out of school to anybody that wants to debates.

Saying like, that was not, you know him. Being on a stage with nine other people and trying to be performative like that was tough for him. And so probably more so, you know, we wanted him to be able to be himself and to be able to speak extemporaneously. Because you want to be natural when you're talking about issues. But we really kind of focused on the attacks.

Like, okay, if Marco says this and you're gonna say that, like, let's practice, not not let's script you, but like, let's practice and get comfortable with. Like, what the critiques are going to be of the other main competitors on stage? And so, yeah, you know, and we have somebody that tried to be, that was Trump. We've just basically had one other person up there and they would be Trump, and then they would be Marco. And you kind of go through the different, you know, types of people and what their likely critiques of JEb were. But it is, it's extremely hard to prep for it.

It's not exactly Tommy, I don't know if you know this, but I've been, I've been basically excommunicated. From two debate prep teams. John Huntsman asked me to leave because I was too negative and and I removed myself from the JEB debate prep because I was too negative and I was traveling with JEB.

And I was like, I got to save my, you know, just any human interaction, right? Like just with a, with a child or parent, or anything. You know, you want to do the Compliment sandwich, and I wasn't that good at the Compliment sandwich. you know, the Compliment Sandwich is nice. Job on this. Oh, you could do better on that, but also this is good. And I was, I was more of a criticism sandwich.

And so I had to kind of save my, you know, my chips for for the for the road. And so I removed myself from Jeb's debate prep. But, like, that's not an easy job. Listen, giving bad news anyone sucks, but like playing a realistic Donald Trump in a debate where he will literally say anything, the meanest thing you can imagine.

He will say to you, Hillary Clinton, what about your husband and his, you know, affairs with interns? Like, you have to turn to your boss and replicate that, that is, that's a nearly impossible task, really hard, yeah. And Trump attacked Jeb's wife right before one of the debates.

And I think, just in retrospect, we probably didn't do a good enough job. Now you have to even kind of put your brain in this time of, oh, this is the summer of 2015. So the Trump craziness is just coming on online. And you're like, Is he really gonna do this shit on stage? And like, Do people even like this should?

Maybe we should ignore him, right? Like that theory is viable at that time. And so I think that from a staff perspective, we did not do a good enough job prepping for that. You know, because you don't want I. Who is going to be the staffer? That goes up there and is like, you know, Columbus, an illegal immigrant, right? And and to see, you know, like somebody might get punched by the candidate during debate prep, right?

And so I think that, in retrospect, had we kind of known that Trump's durability and how unhinged he was going to be. We maybe could have done a better job prepping. But again, I think that you have to have a certain type of demeanor to even be in the game with Trump on stage. Because he's just such, such a different animal than anything else, I think the different animal thing it's. It's hard to remember now how different he felt.

Then I went.

Here here's one clip I thought of for Trump and Jeff going back and forth that I thought was illustrative. I didn't want to trigger you, but it might also do that, okay.

But what Donald Trump did was use them in a domain to try to take the property of an elderly woman on the strip in Atlantic City. That is not public purpose. That is downright wrong. Here's the problem with that. The problem was it was to tear down, it was to tear down.

Jeff wants to be, he wants to be a let me talk quiet.

That's all of his donors and special interests.

So that's what it is, that's what. And by the way, let me just tell you, we needed tickets. You can't get them. You know, who has the tickets for the I'm talking about? To the television audience, donors, special interests, the people that are putting up the money.

Who it is? The RNC told us We have all donors in the audience. And the reason they're not loving me, the reason they're not excuse me, the reason they're not loving me is I don't want their money. I'm going to do the right thing for the American public.

I don't want their money, I don't need their money, and I'm the only one up here that can say that. Listen, that's a brilliant response to an entire auditorium of people booing you, right? I don't think most people would think to do that.

Instead, he breaks the fourth wall. He's like, let me tell you how it really works. Special interests are flocking to this place, they're buying up tickets, they're trying to rig how it sounds in here.

I don't need them, I don't care about them, I'm for you. I mean, that's an incredible debate moment. And you can hear Jeb, you know, trying to get on the, you know, kind of the attack that he had prepared.

Right, and Trump's talking over him, and he's trying to say, that's not tough to steal an old lady's house, right? You know, I guess that's the he's trying to say. You know, Trump acts like he's a tough guy. He acts like he's mad at people. But actually, you know, he's a weakling and he's and he's screwing over regular people, right?

And it's in his business life. And so, like, that's the core of the attack. But, like, Jeb can't even get it out right because Trump is just bowling over him.

And then there's crosstalk and the people are cheering, and then it's Trump that jumps in again. Right now, we're at a free for all. This is not anything you prepped.

Now we're at a free for all. But Trump is, like, instinctually jumps in again and then.

And so, you know, in future debates like, Really, I think I was in the next round of debate prep set for this before I removed myself. Like, the main thing we practice is like talking back over him, right again, like this is like, not something that you had to do. And, you know, in his debate with Lawton Childs in the Florida governor's race in 1998..

Right, like, like, you know, this notion that this guy is just going to start talking over you, you know, telling you to shut up. And then he's going to not even at all try to engage on the eminent domain at all, right? Like. He then starts shouting about how your donors are in the crowd.

I mean, like, we didn't prep him for that and so so that element, I think is just, you know, was tough, was tough to prep for. And Trump, and that's just right in Trump's like, what, you know? I don't want to compliment Trump, but he's good in the house, he's good in that moment. So this debate will be different.

I mean, the following candidates qualified, or we think they qualified for the debate. It'll be Trump, Desantis, Vivek, Ramaswamy, Pence, Haley, Tim Scott, Christie Burgum, Asa Hutchinson, and probably Perry Johnson. But obviously Trump is not going to attend. Perry J, Perry J.

So no, Trump, so it's probably nine candidates on the stage. This time. Candidates will not give opening statements. But they will have 45 seconds for closing remarks, which is the dumbest use of time you could possibly have. But whatever, you get one minute to answer questions, 30 seconds for follow ups.

The moderators are Brett Baer and Martha McCallum from Fox News. Apparently the moderators will be playing clips, including of Trump. He'll even be there, even if he's not there, said jilted Lover Slash moderator Brett Baer. So Tim, let's do, like, kind of figure out what people need to do, the candidates need to do in this debate. And let's start with meatball Ron DeSantis and what he needs to accomplish.

On Wednesday night, because he is the biggest boy at the kids table. The New York Times reported on a memo that his Super Pac runs, Desantis Super Pac, released. Maybe accidentally, kind of not accidentally. Here's a clip of DeSantis getting asked about this memo and his debate strategy. Your campaign said the other day that the knives are out for you at that debate.

I got to ask you about that, plus I got to ask you. I know it's not your campaign, but never back down. Put out a memo that people are talking about, so I'd like to get your reaction to both well on the memo. It's not mine, I haven't read it.

And it's just, I think it's something that we haven't put off to the side. But in terms of debate. Look, when you're, I know from the military, when you're over the target, that's when you're taking flack, and if you look really in the last.

Decade, we've had more attack than anybody else. Biden, Harris, the media, the left, other Republican candidates. And there's a reason for that because people know that I'm the biggest threat. So we view it as positive feedback. We'll be ready to do what we need to do to deliver our message.

But we absolutely expect that and we'll be ready for it. And that means punching back, it means it means, yes, it means defending ourselves, but more importantly, showing why we are the leader to get this country turned around. So, according to this brilliant memo, DeSantis needs to one attack Joe Biden in the media to state his positive vision. Three to five times three Hammer Vivek Ramaswamy at some point for Defend Trump when Chris Christie attacks Trump.

Tim Do you do you agree that the Ron's key to success here is defending the guy, beating him by double digits? I don't, I don't, I don't concur with that, just listening to that answer, man.

I mean, he just sounds like a politician. I get. This is the thing. This is what Republicans liked about that Trump freak show. We listened to the JEB exchange.

It's like the Republican base wants somebody that is. That does not sound at all like anything from the pre-Trump world. Like even the people that might be ready to move on from Trump, like Trump. Like this change, you know, like the bare knuckles, like being an outsider, and Desantis is just kind of like. Weasley. Response We put that memo off to the side.

It's like part of me would say, if I was, if I put my head on and be like, I'm a run. You know, tiny tees, you know, a comms person. I've been like, if you could ask about that memo, you should say, fuck those donors, like, and be in the Super Pac. I don't know where that came from and I'm not going to listen to them. And frankly, I thought their advice was stupid and that's why they're giving me money.

And they're not the governor of Florida, like me, like something like that, right? Like, he needs to demonstrate that he is an alpha. Like when he was doing well with the Republican base, what was he doing? He was yelling at 24 year old local news reporters.

Okay, that they liked that. He was sending defenseless, helpless migrants from Texas to Martha's Vineyard for no reason other than to troll, like the librarian at the Martha's Vineyard Library, right? Like, that's like yelling at kids for wearing masks, yelling at kids wearing masks, like that's what reporters like. When I went to Arizona for the circus, like Blake Masters, and those guys were getting their.

DESantis's migrant deal? So that was his strength, he seemed tough, he seemed like a guy that was going to be a middle finger to the establishment, to the, to the media and since. And he hasn't been able to be the big guy on since since. He's gotten in. Because Trump has bigfooted him in every step of the way, and he seems weaselly and whiny.

And so at the debate, he's got to figure out a way to fix that. It's all like, it's less about the substance of what he's talking, and more about, like his carriage, and is he capable of that? I just, I'm not sure he is.

Yeah, Trump just sounded so different, he was so much more entertaining. The analogy I think about sometimes is like the entire electorate was raised. Watching America's funniest home videos with my man, Bob Saget. Remember that show? Good show.

Hilarious, cute videos, funny bloopers, lots of nutshots. And then all of a sudden Trump gets up there and plays Jackass the movie for us. And you're like, Oh my God, I didn't know it could be this intense and crazy and so different in, like, you know, counterculture. And now, like, Ron DeSantis is going back to this, like old school pollen, who wants that?

It's boring, they don't like it, they don't want it. I mean, there's a certain amount of people that want it, but not enough, right? Like, and so how does he get back?

That mega crowd that was happy about turning the page like that would be all I would be thinking about if I was their team when I'm out there as well as, and, you know, and then he's got Chris Christie, who's better at him than this, who's been on these stages, who's more natural at some way. I would, you know, one thing that would keep me up at night if I was a Desantis person is I'd be. Like, maybe the best way to kind of get my, you know, chutzpah back would be to go right at Christie.

Right, and but maybe my man isn't capable of doing that right, so so we might have to coach him and come up with something else. We might have to, you know, attack, you know, some marginalized group that's offstage in an offensive way.

Or the moderator?

By the way, Tim for folks listening. If you don't want to watch this Republican debate alone or on Elon Musk's Twitter, join the crooked Media Friends of the Pod community. We'll be watching it together. We're making jokes so we don't cry on the Discord. For you folks like me who are a little older, Discord is basically a chat room.

You also get access to bonus content, ad-free episodes, Pod Save America, first access to tickets to live shows in places like Louisville, San Diego.

NEW YORK You can go to Discord.com Slash Friends to join now. Tim The other weird thing about that whole clip was the super Pac element. Like I know, in 2016, Jeb's campaign leaned hard on his Super PAC for fundraising to pay for TV ads. Basically. But you and I have talked about this a number of times.

Like, I just don't get how. DESantis can basically run his entire campaign through the Super PAC. They're paying canvassers to knock on doors in early states. The Super PAC is setting up events Desantis himself attends in Iowa. He's doing polling research, strategy memos, as we all read, thanks to them getting released to Maggie Haberman.

Somehow, like, again, I get that this is all about raising money and that Super Pacs can raise big money easily. But do you think it's worth it when you can't coordinate your activities?

Are they not coordinating? It is weird, the whole thing is weird. So when I went to that event and I went to a Desantis event in Tama, Iowa, I got into a little bit of trouble. Because I took a picture of how empty it was. That ended up on Drudge, and then also that Trump bleeded out on True social, which made me feel bad.

I felt good, I felt good. I was like, Yeah, I was like, Sorry, Ron, I've owned you. And then Trump put it out and I was like, Wait a minute, am I kind of helping Trump?

Now this is now making me sad. You just, you know, we can't have joy anymore. Tommy Nothing is pure. But anyway, I walk out as we were waiting for him to come in. I'm in the press section, which is still kind of weird.

And this little press flat comes over and he's like, and that actually works on the campaign, and this guy's like, Oh, the governor will be here in five minutes. And then and then he rolls up in the Super Pacs bus on like a very large motorcade. By the way, I thought that they were pinching pennies, but not on the Super Pac side.

And then he gets off and it's like, How do you know that he's on? The whole thing is very strange, like, why? How did he get on the Super Pacs bus? How did you time this?

Like, if you can't coordinate, it's like. Did they publish the schedule on Jeff Rose Consulting Firm's website, the same place that they published this debate memo? Like, how do you know where to meet? you know, when? do you know when lunch break is?

The whole thing is very strange and the non coordination was very challenging. We got frustrated. So back when this was, you mentioned this with Jeff, you know? I think that those guys on the Super Pac side rightly saw Rubio as a bigger threat than Trump, because they're like, if we can't get past Ruby.

With Trump, and they did a lot of negative Rubio ads. And there, at a certain point, as Trump tried to gain more and more momentum, that felt a little sad. Kind of, you know, it felt a little off key, right? And it was like, and we on the campaign were wishing that they would do anti Trump ads. You know? If not not necessarily because that would help hurt Trump, but but because it would boost Jeff, right? It would like boost him. Vis-a-vis, vis-a-vis Trump. And and you know, kind of give us a little bit, you know, you know, give him a little more backbone behind his attacks on Trump and so.

But we couldn't do anything about it, right? It doesn't. I'm not sure that's true. The DESantis campaign, it sure seems like they're coordinating that. The whole thing, I think gives makes you feel, um, you know, in a strange way. It's like, all these fun, that's one thing.

One of the other things Trump is right about is my second Trump compliment of this podcast. No more after this. It's that all these strategies were kind of wimps, right? And it's like Trump had his plane. It was the Golf Caddy, it was Hope Hicks, it was like Stabby eyes, Lewandowski, and like, that was it, and it was just Trump, right?

Like, that was it, and Desantis. Now. It makes him look weak. That it's like these super PAC guys are writing a memo about him, and they're writing a script. Yeah, and he's on their bus. Vivek, our boy, Vivek was, was dogging him about this at a different event I went to in Iowa.

So anyway?

Yeah, and it speaks to how broken our campaign finance system is. Speaking of which? The Washington Post had a big story about Ron DeSantis raising money in Florida that basically outlines the legalized corruption. That's okay, because, you know, Florida is the wild, wild West and has no campaign finance rules. The Post reported that. After getting elected, DeSantis had his staff make a list of 40 lobbyists and 100 of their top clients to basically target to shakedown. For cash, Desantis wanted nine of these lobbyists to raise him a million bucks each.

He was personally calling them. One DESantis aide named Heather Barker, actually wrote in an email quote I could sell golf for 50k this morning. Apparently golf was a big part of this strategy. Ron went to one course so often that the club called his staff and said, please tell him to join the club or to stop showing up. But we just can't have him every other day, which is amazing.

So Tim, I read the story and I thought one like, how is this not illegal? Two, boy. Does Ron DESantis probably regret firing Susie Wiles, who was his former top advisor, who now works for Trump? And I'm guessing, is a source for this story and many others. Because she was probably has all these emails somewhere. And then three, like, you know, probably not a coincidence that this story lands right before the debate. So Trump's drain the swamp rhetoric was obviously, you know, bullshit, but it was quite effective.

Do you think Ron DESantis is worried that this is going to come at him? Will it matter? Yeah, well, I again. I think it all plays into this narrative that he's just the same old politician, you know? In one of Sarah Longo's focus groups at The Bulwark, somebody, this one, stuck with me. Some person said, like, they think Desantis is deep state or might be deep state. And it's like, this is the kind of shit that makes people think of that, right?

And by the way, I just, and this might be somewhere that I get crossways with some of the progressive folks on the on the pod. You might disagree with me on this, Tony, but like, I just don't. I think that money, corruption or related to money is a problem, you know, at the gubernatorial level, right? That like, maybe he's doing favors, backscratching for real estate developers or whatever. But in presidential politics, I just don't think money matters that much anymore. I think all the campaigns spend way too much time raising money and caring about money. Ron DESantis's TV ads, like TV ads, do not matter in presidential politics. Like, unless it's really, really good and breaks through on social, on TikTok, and they're playing, it's like people don't watch commercials that much.

They're used as introductory tools in House and Senate races, local races, where people get to learn about the candidates that people are learning about. Ron DESantis on Sports, Talk Radio, on News, Talk Radio, on podcasts, on Facebook, on TikTok, on cable. Like the presidential news is everywhere, people can't escape it. And so he's giving away, you know, he's making himself seem like a tool of the donors. In exchange for 50 grand, that's going to buy you four more ads that I think have diminishing returns. In the first place. I just don't think money is that big of a deal at the presidential level.

And I think the Trump campaign showed that, Biden showed that, really. Biden's comeback in the Democratic primary was not based on money, it was like, based on a Jim Clyburn endorsement and then a bunch of momentum. Yeah, I mean, I think at some point, you know, if you don't have enough money, you'll have to make hard decisions. Like, do I run ads in North Carolina or not do I run ads in Florida at all?

Or do we just concede to say, like, the decisions like that? But I agree with you in general. Like, there's such a diminishing return in the next campaign ad, especially if it's not backed by some sort of earned media narrative. Or, you know, and most of these controversies are manufactured at some point. Speaking of which? Tim? For some reason. DESantis did an interview with an outlet called the Florida Standard, which is some like brand new news site. That was created by a 26 year old kid who I think used to work for Trump or was a.

Now, get access to DESantis because basically kisses Ron's ass, so during this interview, Desantis suggested that Republicans shouldn't mindlessly follow Trump. Here's a clip. The movement has got to be about what are you trying to achieve on behalf of the American people? And that's got to be based in principle.

Because if you're not rooted in principle, if all we are is listless vessels, that just supposed to follow. You know whatever happens to come down the pike on Truth Social every morning that that's not going to be a durable setting aside. Why he's talking to the quote Florida standard when you need to be winning in Iowa? Trump's team is calling this Ron's basket of deplorables. A moment, Tim, which is how Hillary described the kind of hardcore MAGA base in 2016 channeling.

She had some points with that. Do you think they're gonna make this one work? Will you channel my inner? James Carville? You're a Louisiana guide? Will this dog hunt?

Do anybody know what a listless vessel is? I don't know, I like, I don't think that, I don't know. that doesn't make any sense.

I don't think I think it goes to show that you know how tough the situation around a sentence is in, right? Like, you can't. If you offer any criticism, that kind of sounds like a criticism of the MAGA movement. All of a sudden, like people start clutching their pearls, and, you know, like, they get triggered, the maggots get triggered and they start attacking you.

So I don't know that this that this dog is gonna hunt, but he, he is making a good point. Kind of awkwardly, right? And so it's almost like, right, like, can can our party Can are moving, can the MAGA movement move beyond?

Like, whatever the latest obsession of Donald Trump's personal life is. But the problem is, I think he gets himself in these awkward situations because he's trying to decide what he can say. He can't say the truth like, he can't come out and say like, Donald Trump is obsessed with him, with himself and himself only, and he's always been that way.

And he's a narcissistic egomaniac, and maybe we should care about other people and other issues besides that. You can't say that, right? So he's trying to delicately say it, and he accidentally makes fun of MAGA voters. Tough break.

So there are other candidates on the stage. Donald Trump is not on the stage again, but he will be featured by the Fox News host. Tim Scott and Nikki Haley are candidates who will be up there. They are, you know, they have solid name ID, right?

They have, like, pretty good establishment resumes. Tim Scott has a ton of money because of some big donors. Neither have gotten much traction. What do you think Nikki Haley or Tim Scott needs to get done at this debate? Can I ask you a question first?

Sure, what are they trying to do? are they trying to be the president? I think Nikki Haley is trying to be the vice president. Yeah, that would be my guess.

I don't know about Tim Scott, though. If they're trying to be the vice president, I guess I would spin up some nonsense about how the deep state is targeting Mr. Trump or Mr. Trump. I don't understand what they're doing.

They don't have any chance. I went at one of the other Iowa events I was at, it was this cattle call. A bunch of the candidates spoke, and Nikki Haley gave this speech that appeals to me.

It was mostly about how we should be more serious about foreign policy. And she's criticized the Biden administration for not giving enough money to Ukraine and giving more resources to Ukraine. In this room, if I wasn't a journalist and I was allowed to clap, I would have been the only one clapping at that observation. I don't understand what she's doing, she doesn't have any appeal in this party, they like her.

Fine, she's not Chris Christie, they don't hate her. But they're never going to nominate somebody from the before times who does not offer them the culture war lib owning stuff that they like. I don't know what advice to give them, I don't know what their purpose is.

To be honest, Tim Scott claims that he's running for president. It doesn't seem like it to me. Maybe he'll just pull out his phone and just show all the Tinder matches. He's gotten to sort of put that to rest, be like, Look, these ladies love me, you shut up everyone else.

Maybe the ladies love me. We don't know their version. I'm not a version. I was a version until 32. Okay, that's it, though.

We don't know that. If you're a 32-year-old version out there, it's going to happen for you. It happened for Tim Scott. There's nothing to be ashamed of. Yeah, it's an American story.

All right, so in terms of debating ability, you mentioned this earlier. Expectations are probably the highest for Chris Christie. Here's a clip from 2016 that helps explain why the first voice you're going to hear is Marco Rubio. This is edited down from multiple moments at this debate. And then Chris Christie swoops in and punches him in the mouth.

And let's dispel once and for all with this fiction that Barack Obama doesn't know what he's doing. He knows exactly what he's doing. Barack Obama is undertaking a systematic effort to change this country, to make America more like the rest of the world. But I would add this, let's dispel with this fiction that Barack Obama doesn't know what he's doing.

He is trying to change this country, he wants America to become more like the rest of the world. Here's the bottom line. This notion that Barack Obama doesn't know what he's doing is just not true. There it is.

He knows exactly what he's doing. The memorized 25-second speech Well, that's the reason why this campaign is so important. Marco. The thing is this when you're president of the United States, when you're governor of a state. The memorized 30-second speech, where you talk about how great America is at the end of it, doesn't solve one problem for one person.

They expect you to plow the snow, and when the worst natural disaster in your state's history hits you, they expect you to rebuild their state. Which is what I've done. None of that stuff happens on the floor of the United States Senate. It's a fine job. I'm glad you ran for it.

But it does not prepare you for president of the United States. So that clip was as good as I remember it. Oh, it's pretty good. That was a cut down from the WMUR debate in New Hampshire in 2016. As you heard Marco Rubio, we edited this down.

Marco Rubio keeps repeating the same odd line over and over again about how Obama knows what he's doing. I don't even understand the value of that line. Delivered once well. But he sounds like a glitching robot. Christie pounces on him, makes him into a national joke.

Unfortunately for Christie, Trump's not at this debate, right, so he can't show his chops and defeat Trump at the debate. There's no direct combat opportunity. Do you think Christie needs to humiliate someone else again to show that he's there? And then also Mike Pence is going to be there.

I'm a rare lonely hate Chris Christie hater in the never Trump world. I think that a what he did at that debate only served to help Donald Trump. Then he went and endorsed Donald Trump. He's a tough guy, he never actually took on Donald Trump.

He had like eight tries, maybe 20 tries, I don't know. We had a bunch of debates so anyway, and I said, when he got in this time, it's like, it's nice, I agree.

It's nice when he goes on Fox and it's satisfying. And he says the truth about Donald Trump, and he says the truth about his criminality. He had a good interview where he attacked some of the other candidates about. About trans issues and how conservatives, I thought conservatives didn't want government making decisions for parents. And why are we doing it on trans issues?

I liked that, but like, I think the most likely thing is that he goes up there and just defenestrates. Shout out to PAC the other candidates on stage, despite only having 28 approval rating. And it's like, Then what?

I think he might take out Ron DeSantis and Tim Scott. And then it's like, what was the point of this? Again? I thought the point of this was to stop the guy that tried to coup, and I don't know. I think you can do that when only 28 of the party likes you.

So anyway, I think that's what's most likely to happen. If I was Chris Christie's advisor, I'd tell him, just attack Trump, leave these other poor people on stage alone. But I don't think he's going to do that. Mike Pence, I think he's just trying to get his dignity back.

He's doing okay on that, I guess, but I don't understand the point of his campaign either, really. Except for maybe it's just to get his dignity back, which is, I guess, a good reason to run. Mike Pence was 3 in the New York Times-Iowa poll, 6 in this most recent one. Don't call it a comeback. My favorite stat from the New York Times-Iowa poll is that RFK Jr.'s favorability was like, 3x better than Mike Pence's.

Like the last Republican vice president, now, because he didn't go along with the coup.

Less popular than like a lifetime lefty who now Republicans like because he thinks vaccines are bad. And like, goes on Steve Bannon's podcast Okay, all right, not ideal. It doesn't make me feel good about the country.

All right, Tim, so we got to the main course here, which is Vivek, our guy, he's 38 years old, he wrote. Woke, Inc. He got rich off this biotech company that he started.

Now he's spending all his cash running for president. He seems to be trying to be kind of a happy culture warrior. If those things can coexist. Vivek's team tweeted out a clip of his debate prep. Here it is.

That was Vivek playing shirtless tennis somewhere. Yeah, I wish you guys could see how red and flush my mom's gonna listen to this podcast on the drive, on her drives. Tim, you've been to Vivek's events, you've seen his 10 commandments.

What do you think the appeal is? Here's the appeal. It might be Phony, I don't know, he might be Vivek, the fake.

I'm not sure, or he might have just gotten red-pilled and this is all real. But he is good at making the argument for the new nationalist MAGA GOP in a way that sounds intelligent. And that's very hard. And I'm not comparing these people on the merits of their policies or whatever.

But in the same way that. I think. Pete appealed to people in Iowa because they showed up to his events and they could ask him questions and he would sound really, really smart. I think Pete's answers were genuine. VIVEK When you go to these things, people ask him questions and he sounds smart. I suffered through his valedictorian speech on YouTube. That's how obsessed I am.

I couldn't do it. He's very smart, he went to all these schools, He is a skilled speaker. I think he has schooled himself in the daily wire world and talking points.

And he kind of sounds like Candace Owens, and he sounds like Matt Walsh, and he sounds like Ben Shapiro. And that's what a lot of Republican voters want now. And so I think that. Unlike DESantis, who feels like a real politician who's trying to do some MAGA culture war stuff, Vivek kind of seems like he's of the Trump movement.

And it might be phony, but he is speaking like he might be. How a MAGA person in the crowd wishes they could speak if they had Vivek's level of education. And so they see him and they're like, Yes, I do think that we're spending too much money in Ukraine, I do think we should spend the military to the border. And I do have a couple of questions about 9-11. He is hitting that nerve.

And so he's also a 38-year-old Hindu.

And so I think that's not really, probably great for Iowa. And so I think that if he was like a 43-year-old evangelical, my guess is that he'd be in second place right now. But I think that he at least recognizes something that the Nikki Haley, the Tim Scott, the people don't. Which is like, what? The Republican Party voters, not all of them, but like 75 of them, a significant majority, what they're looking for and they're looking for. MAGA Yeah, I agree with that.

I mean, I think to the question of whether he's Vivek, the fake or real. I talked to someone the other day who worked with him back in the day when he was a tech bro. And they suggested that. This is a lot of performance happening here. Look, I agree with you. I think there's a few parts of this. I think. Conservative white audiences love it when a person of color confirm their feelings about race. Right? In this long piece in the Atlantic. Vivek says he didn't mind being racially profiled on a flight to Israel right after 9-11, because he said quote it was data-driven.

I don't know what that means, but it's a pretty weird, gross thing to say. I agree with you. I think he's kind of pulling on the Joe Rogan Russell brand conspiracy theory heartstrings, talking about the 9-11 commission lying to us. He's doing isolationism on steroids, he doesn't like supporting Ukraine.

He said, Let's let China take Taiwan after 2028.

To his credit, I agree with you, he is young, he's campaigning really hard. There is a lot of that Mayor Pete strategy, and he's saying things that do make him sound genuinely different from others.

The thing I think is going to be hard for him is everyone's clearly coming for him now.

To consolidating the anti-trump vote. Part of what got released from Ron DeSantis Super PAC was Oppo research on Vivek. It wasn't private investigators following him around, it was quotes and votes and his failure to vote presidential campaigns, things he said in the past. But also, I think I made you listen to this, Tim.

Vivek did a long interview with Hugh Hewitt, who is this Trump supporter, but guy who fancies himself a foreign policy thinker?

Ravelling his 40 chess. Watch me, logic, my way through international affairs, answers about China and Ukraine, et cetera. At the end, he says to Hugh I didn't know much of this stuff until six months ago. That's an honest answer, but it certainly doesn't shake his hubris. Which I think will be a problem down the road. Maybe, yeah, it could be a problem down the road.

I don't know, I think people coming at him on the debate stage is a mistake, man. Just looking at performance ability, nothing else. The Vivek I saw was much better than all the other candidates in that cattle call. Chris Christie wasn't there.

Trump wasn't there, but everyone else on stage. I think he's going to be better and I think going after him would be going after Vivek. The fake would be a mistake in Dr. Seussian terms if I was these guys. Because even if the hit is good, just like you saw with Jeb, the hit was good on him in a domain.

But performance is like 80 of the battle. Yeah, he's agile. Yeah. I also noticed that Vivek is saying that he was talking to Chris Ruddy, the head of the Newsmax network, about coverage. He's complaining that he's only getting covered in the middle of the day.

And Ruddy basically said to him, Well, one way to fix that is to buy some ads. So it's sort of nice when people tell you who they are. I noticed this in the Atlantic. The Atlantic did a long profile of Vivek Tim, where the reporter wrote After the Cuomo interview, we drove to Ramaswamy's house. It's bright and white, with giant ceilings. Suburban, palatial.

One of the family's two nannies appeared and started putting together a spread chili.

Tofu Tacos Tim, Do you think the MAGA base wants watermelon salad and tofu tacos? They want burned steak? They want ketchup on the wall? I just, I don't know.

I don't think it's.

There's only so much phoniness. He might have the talking points down, but no man, they want McDonald's and ketchup on the wall, for sure.

Okay, Tim, so let's get to our front runner. Trump is a no-show in Milwaukee. As we discussed, he said a truth yesterday, I believe Sunday, where he said he will be skipping debates. Plural. NBC News reported that that comment means Trump is going to skip the first two debates, which are both hosted by Fox. It's Fox News and then Fox Business. Which makes me feel good inside about their blood feud still going.

Instead, Trump is going to do an interview with Tucker Carlson. Sadly for us. He canceled the big press conference that was supposed to happen on Monday, where Trump had promised to detail how the election was stolen. Which might have been used in court against him. Tim, Do you think skipping the debate is the right move? Will a Tucker interview have the juice to kind of get him into coverage the way he wants? Have you heard that the Tucker interview has already been taped?

It's a pre-taped interview, it's like pre-taped. Yeah, I just saw this before we came on. So I mean, it's not even it doesn't even have the za-za-za. You know, the excitement of who knows what these two jokesters are going to say.

Like, what kind of, you know, racist jokes are they going to put out there to distract attention? No, but I mean, I guess it allows Tucker to choose the most inflammatory stuff. I don't know, no, I think it probably will. There is now some percentage of the Republican Party that is not insignificant. That has decided that Fox is, you know, too corporate, too, establishment and are mad about Tucker leaving.

And these people will just, despite Fox, watch Trump and Tucker. The thing is, though, that is a clean overlap. I think with the people that are already not considering any other candidates in this primary, right? And so does losing those viewers matter? Probably not that much. The thing I would look out for for whether it could work is if there is enough outrageous stuff. Or if he has to surrender to Phony Willis the next day, the day after, coverage could be blunted. Especially if that, you know, undercard debate is as boring as I think it could be.

You know, I went back and looked because I had to refresh my memory. The one debate that Trump skipped, which was the head of the Iowa caucuses last time, it was an Iowa debate. It just wasn't that interesting. I rewatched some of the coverage of it. I was like, what was Jeb's angle in that debate? I couldn't even remember.

You know, that's just the nature of the world that we're living in now. I mean, the Trump, you know, persona is just so different, and so I don't. It's possible that this debate ends up being kind of boring. But, you know, the tucker thing, I don't think, is the strongest counter program he could have come up with. Yeah, I should note that on Monday we learned that Trump's bond in the Fulton County case has been set at 200 grand.

So not nothing, but, you know, not much for him. He also has all these substantial restrictions against witness intimidation. He can't threaten co-defendants or witnesses, or victims, or the community at large. In Georgia, that includes social media posts. How is that going to be enforced?

I have no idea I would like for that to be enforced, but that's, you know, I mean, it seems like that's kind of like just an average. Threatening witnesses is kind of like how he wakes up in the morning. Yeah, it's par for the course. I did wonder if, you know, maybe the message at the end of the day was going to be surrendering to Fannie Willis. And, you know, taking over everything that way.

But you're right, it still could happen, it could happen on Thursday, right Thursday or Friday. I mean, this whole thing is so fucking bizarre and it's just like, In what world are you living in? Where Donald Trump's surrendering for trying to overthrow the last election to Fannie Willis in Georgia would be like a positive piece of distraction news for him.

But it just is like, it just is, and a big part of the reason why that is, by the way, is that. All of his supposed opponents, most of the big personalities on Fox, most of the big Republican personalities outside of Fox, are echoing his talking points about this, right? Like, if everyone else is telling the voters, yeah, Donald Trump is being persecuted by a two tier system of justice. They're going to believe it, I mean, certainly, many, many Republicans would still believe it if it was only Trump saying it.

But it certainly helps him that everybody else is echoing his talking points. And I think that it's like, creates this environment. Where, bizarrely, you know, his 92nd indictment, or whatever it is, felony indictment, is helping him on the margins in the primary. Yeah, well, certainly, we've seen it in all the polling, it's helping him consolidate the vote, including in this latest Iowa poll. So speaking of, like, the polling and how you beat Trump, Tim So. The New York Times reported that Republicans now think Joe Biden is so weakened politically that electability arguments are not working with them.

Basically, they've been convinced by, you know, edited clips of Joe Biden stuttering or falling on stage when he tripped over a sandbag. Or whatever it is that anyone can beat Joe Biden, especially Trump. And I guess my question is, do we really believe that? I feel like voters are a little bit trained to say that. The answer to a question about whether you care more about issues or electability is to say issues. Because that's pure, and that makes you, that's the right answer, that's the good answer.

And winning, ultimately, is everything. But if it is true and electability is kind of not on the table to make an argument against Trump. Like, what is left besides the plan I know you subscribe to, which is drafting Virginia Governor Glenn Youngkin into the race? All right, let's table my Glenn Youngkin plan. A couple of listeners are going to tune out of this podcast and not hear the end, and they're going to think, I really am a Glenn Youngkin Stan.

Okay, whatever.

I thought it was Shane Goldmuck that wrote that piece, I thought it was super insightful. And I think that there are two categories of voters here that we're talking about. Just going back to the beginning of the pod, right? There are the MAGA types that live in MAGA media world, that are watching Newsmax, that are listening to Daily Wire pods that are on their Facebook feeds. With all kinds of weird shit coming at them. And I do think that in that world, if you are deeply ensconced in the MAGA media bubble, you are convinced that. Joe Biden is riddled with dementia and can barely stand.

It's a weekend at Bernie Situation, Kamala's running the show. Yeah, and by the way, you're also convinced that Trump won last time and that it was stolen, right? So there is a very significant, maybe majority or very strong minority within the Republican Party that lives in that world, right?

Where Trump actually won last time and Joe Biden is Weekend of Bernie's. And so why would they have to think about electability? That's there then. I think that there's another, more rational group. That was part of the reason why they were looking at Ron DESantis, right? Because he won by 19 in Florida, in a year where a lot of the Trump candidates did poorly.

And I think that he's really harmed his electability argument with that group by his performance in this primary. And going so far right on abortion, on gay stuff, on cultural issues, and a lot of people look at him. And I think that you could make a rational case looking at DESantis and say, I'm not really convinced that DeSantis is more electable. Yeah, I agree with that, like Trump is actually a little chiller on cultural issues, like, Yeah, sure.

He might've done a coup and like, he might be a racist. But like, he's a little bit chiller on abortion. And he won already, this guy's a little weird. He won in 2016, yeah.

And he won already, right? So I think that that is right. I think the electability argument has been neutralized by the big lie, by the mega media's coverage of Joe Biden and by DeSantis weak performance. Oh, that's depressing.

I still think I'm hopeful that as we get closer to the election, voters will start to think back to 2020.

They'll think about 2022 and the midterms. And you can make an argument that's like, this guy is toxic. Look at all the people he endorsed, he's going to lose.

We can't afford another four years of Joe Biden. I agree. This is why. Why didn't they just stick with? Like? DESantis had gotten in the race at Thanksgiving, or had somebody else and had the whole Republican party apparatus just stuck with that message that was resonating. I mean, like at Christmas, Trump was tied with Desantis.

This was the sole reason why was the poor midterm performance. They blamed him. And yet I think that, for some reason, Desantis decided the right thing to do was stall six months, you know? Enact the most extreme, far right like social issue legislative session in, like the history of Florida, an Alabama style legislative session. And then launch your campaign on Elon Musk's whatever they're calling Twitter now, right? Like that, I think, was very poor decisions that happened over the period of six months that neutralized this argument. That was working with Republican voters last Christmas.

Which is why you and Rupert Murdoch are trying to get Glenn Youngkin into this race.

Two men of equal stature and influence in the Republican Party. All the people, there's this. It wasn't, it wasn't the Axios guy who was reporting this. Like, big donors are getting a little bit nervous about the players on the field, Ryan Kemp and Glenn Youngkin. And it's like, nobody wants these guys. Meet a Republican voter.

Meet some Republican voters, please. Like, I am begging these people to actually leave Manhattan, leave the Hamptons, you know, fly down here. I'm gonna. I'm gonna go to the Lafayette, Louisiana, for the Louisiana GOP convention this Friday. They can come with me, we can talk to some of these people.

And if you think that they want a former hedge fund manager in a fleece vest to come off the sidelines and talk about comity and family values? Like, you're, you're fucking delusional. Like it's been a decade, this is one of those things where this was an understandable thing to be confused about in 2018. It's 2023, right, I think.

So yeah, I don't know time is. It's hard to keep track. But like these guys, the whole thing is fucking enraging and and they just haven't accepted the reality.

The only person that could come off the sidelines and challenge Trump is the guy that's doing an interview with him on.

Tucker Wednesday Yeah, that's my big fear, that is my biggest fear.

I mean, I think it's too late for that. But that's the only guy that could come off the sidelines and actually shake this up. It's sure. Shit, not going to be Glenn Young. No, no, give me a break.

Finally, on today's show, Crooked Media's Hallie Kiefer has joined us for a new segment. A new game, a new something that I know nothing about. But I've been prompted to ask, How much am I going to hate doing this? You know, it's hard to know. I think you're going to excel, which I think will thrill you. But the fact you'll know so much will also make you sad that this is what you've chosen.

You have to know all the dirty details about a bunch of dirty dogs, okay, because, of course, this is about the Georgia indictment. There are a few dirtier dogs than those guys in America, Timmy and Tom, you know, as well as anyone that recently the devil went down to Georgia.

I was looking for a soul to steal. I'm sorry, I'm senior. Those are the lyrics to a song the Charlie Daniels band's classic, The Devil, went down to Georgia.

I'm not sure how this got in here. But on related news recently, Donald Trump and 18 of his cronies were indicted for their attempt to undermine the results of the 2020 presidential election in Georgia. They have until Friday to turn themselves into authorities. Which gives us five full days of laughs. Now, I assume by now, you've both had time to read all 96 pages of the indictment, which is why we're playing a little game. I'm calling. I'm so indicted now, Tommy, could you repeat back to me what the name of the game is?

I'm so indicted. No, you have to sing it. I'm sorry. I'm so indicted. thank you.

All right, and I just can't fight it. Oh, and God knows, we're going to watch him. Um, gentlemen, are you ready? Yes.

Okay.

Which of the following is not a real person charged in the Georgia indictment? I'm going to read four names, okay, and one of them is not real, not someone who's really indicted.

Are you ready? Should we let our? Does Tim get to guess first? so? or do you want me to guess first? Tim? I'll, Yeah, I'll, I'll. I'll let you go first.

How about that? Okay, that's pressure, all right. A.

Sean Micah Tresher, Still, B. Harrison, William Prescott, Floyd, C. William, Frederick Dempsey, George Rufus.

And D Ray Stalling Smith III. So again, those are three real people who are indicted and one that is a fictional person. Okay, B and D were definitely real.

Okay, great Ray. Stalling Smith is real. I'm down to. I'm at a 50-50. And I think it's the George Rufus. I think George Rufus, the third name. I think that was not real.

You're picking C. Okay, great, I'm going to take the one Tim didn't take. Okay, great Tim, you nailed it.

That's not received as fictional. Those are actually Kiefer Sutherland's middle names. that's too many middle names. Kiefer don't know what happened there. I wouldn't have got. I, honestly, if you hadn't gone first, I would have been O for unknowing any of those.

Kiefer George Rufus Sutherland, Kiefer William, Frederick Dempsey, George Rufus Sutherland. Don't know why? simply too many gentlemen's names. Okay, I didn't even catch the Kiefer.

There were so many names there, all right, okay, true or false? Aside from Donald Trump, Rudy Giuliani was the only other defendant to rack up 13 counts.

True.

Tim Tim, how are you feeling? I was going to go with False, I don't think he, I don't think. Did Rudy get 13? It is true.

He's the only one who also got 13. And you know, he's just drenched in hair dye right now, just sweating over that baker's dozen. Oh, the man's barely human. At this point, Tim. He has no money to pay for any of the bills. Incontinent.

He's a David Cronenberg creature and he's just walking around in society right now. Think how cheap the bourbon is that he's drinking now, that scotch, he's just down to the bottom of the, you know, bottom shelf.

Maxing out credit cards, he doesn't have any money anymore. Oh well, you're seeing he's selling his New York apartment just right in the bourbon. You gonna, you gonna make a bid.

No, but I mean, maybe it could be Tourette. I can't see why you wouldn't. Kenneth Chessbro, What do you want to call it, Cheesebro?

It is Cheesebro, Cheesebro. Yeah, again, that's a fictional name, Kenneth Cheesebro, a human being who faces seven felony counts for his role in developing the fake Electors plot. Was a registered Democrat as recently as 2016. And in 2004, said Barack Obama would quote make a pretty good Supreme Court justice, or is that false?

That's true, I know a lot about Kenneth Cheesebro. I think that's true. And I think it's also true that he was with Alex Jones at the Capitol on January 6th. And both of those things are true.

He was, he was a Democrat, and then he got, he got rich off bitcoin, and then he got rich. And that'll do it. Unfortunately, I would watch a documentary on that. Stephen Lee, an Illinois handyman, was indicted for his efforts to intimidate Georgia election worker Ruby Freeman. True or false?

True I was, I think I was false. I was pretty sure, wasn't it Kanye West's spokesperson that was indicted for that?

And I don't believe that he is a handyman from Illinois, but I could be wrong now. Stephen Lee was indicted, but technically this is false because he's not an Illinois handyman. He's a Lutheran pastor. Because that's how corrupt Republicans have become, They've invented an evil Lutheran prairie. Home companion would be ashamed.

Okay, indicted former White House chief of staff Mark Meadows told the Wall Street Journal. I believe that the charges that were filed on me are for a lack of a better words. Baloney. Is that true or is that false? Did he call it Baloney? I don't think I've read him calling it Baloney.

I'm going to say false Tim. I also feel like I would have heard Baloney, but I let my Wall Street Journal subscription lapse when I left the Republican Party. I just didn't see it behind the paywall, but I'm going to say it's false.

You're both right. It is false and the person who did say it was, of course, the person you just mentioned. Cuddy is indicted. Former publicist Trivia on Cuddy.

One of the lesser known indictees is Trump's former lawyer Lionel Hutz, who previously worked as an ambulance chaser and once ran a shoe repair business out of his legal office. True or false?

Tommy True, Tommy, I'm embarrassed. I don't know this one. I just thought Hutz is false.

Simpsons lawyer He's a lawyer for the Simpsons. I only did that because I was like, we're all the same age, you'll get a Simpsons. Oh, that's so embarrassing.

Tommy's older than me. Jesus Christ, I'm assuming two left. If you can believe it, I'm assuming you guys probably covered this. But on Monday, Donald Trump agreed to a $100,000 bond as well as other terms of his release. True or false?

False $200,000..

False Yes, agreed. He agreed to a $200,000 bond, to which, I say. And finally, if convicted, Trump would have to serve five years. Before a pardon could even be possible. It would have to be issued by the state's board of pardon, because in Georgia, the governor does not have pardon power. Is that true, or is that false?

That's true, that's true. it's blissfully, wonderfully true. Gentlemen. it's a wonderful, wonderful thank you for having me.

See, like, Are you glad? are you happy? Oh, Hallie, that was great. Although I do feel like I am slipping. If I got the old Simpsons lawyer, I think this, yeah, that was a bad one.

This is worse than when I went on your show and you asked me who the prime minister of Pakistan was. And I could only name the former one. And Tim roasted me. That was really bad to as many viewers, that was really bad.

He compared me to a quiz given to George Bush, who was running for president. My God, it was vengeance for George Bush, it was vengeance for poor George Bush. How was he supposed to know Benazir Bhutto, or whoever was the prime minister of Pakistan?

How was he supposed to know the name of countries he might invade? That was, I'm so indicted. Thank you for having me, gentlemen. Thank you very much. That's it for us today.

Thank you Tim Miller for coming on a very long broadcast. Everyone has been saying how you outshined both Favreau and Lovett, so thank you again for doing the show. Yeah, total duds. I appreciate that.

Absolute Duds Pod Save America is a crooked media production. The executive producer is Michael Martinez. Our producers are Andy Gardner-Bernstein and Olivia Martinez. It's mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick.

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