Flightless Bird: Shoes Indoors

I'm David Farrier, a New Zealander, accidentally marooned in America, and I want to figure out what makes this country tick. Now, often on the show we tackle really big things that make America puzzling to me as an outsider – tipping, flags, Thanksgiving, laundromats, school cafeterias, and the ridiculously high level of water in the toilet bowl. But each day I'm faced with other, smaller mysteries – things that are treated as normal in day-to-day life here, when being anything but normal. What? I took my shoes off.

You do.

I've been going through old audio of this show, and found a bit where me, Dax, and Monica are talking at a Thanksgiving party. We were recording episode 28, Thanksgiving, and I just noticed that we were in somebody else's house, and I was the only one who had taken my shoes off at the front door. That's something I've been thinking about a lot since I've been in America, and I'm glad you raise it. I always take my shoes off indoors. I've noticed most people, like everyone here right now, is wearing shoes, except me.

Yes, a lot of houses prefer shoes off, so you're doing the right thing.

Once I saw Bria had her shoes on, I was like, let's party. Monica told me her take on taking shoes off at a dinner party. I don't. Dax agreed.

If someone did that in my house, I'd be like, you're too comfy.

It falls under the farting category. I want someone to feel comfortable enough to fart around me, you included, David. But there's no way we would not have to acknowledge it's more sanitary. Americans are too busy working. We don't have the time to take our shoes on and off.

Okay, but would you ever come into work and take your shoes off?

Yes, I used to, but that was unique to me. So when I worked in a newsroom in New, Zealand, I just hate having my shoes on. I just don't like the feeling of having my feet contained. But it wasn't a common thing. So in New Zealand, generally work, definitely shoes on.

That feels really aggressive of you.

It was the end of a lot of things happening. But my point being, Shoes and Doors in New. Zealand, it's not on. Okay. How do you feel?

Okay. I am assuming they're going to have shoes on the whole time, and I'm totally great with that. And if they ask me, which often people will, like, oh, should I take my shoes off? I say, no, no, you're good. But no one says, can I take my shoes off?

Do people ever take them off?

Okay. The only time it would maybe happen, and sometimes happens in the attic, is if we're sitting for a long time, and then we just throw our shoes off here.

Oh, you sort of casually, yeah.

Exactly. While you're sitting, you kind of like just toss them off, and then you get comfy. And so sometimes that would happen at a dinner party or something. People would be eating and maybe take their shoes off at their seat. But no one is coming in, dropping the shoes at the door.

Are you ever concerned that if they've been tramping down the street and they might have picked something up on the bottom of the shoe, is that ever a concern? Or do you have a map that people? can? I have a map.

You've got a map. It says, in this house, we play Taylor's version.

Oh, that's good. That's good.

So people can wipe their dirt off, but also I'm kind of grossed out by their stinky foot and their stinky sock.

Yeah, because that's the other issue. I guess if the shoe comes off, you're dealing with potentially a sweaty sock. Yes. Or if they take the sock off, you're dealing with just a foot.

And then if people step on it, on the foot, and then they sue you.

Yeah, there's that. There's a safety thing as well. Maybe a little nail or a tack has fallen on your floor, and they might get something through there.

Exactly. I think I'm more concerned about that, like, oh, no, what if they step on glass in my apartment?

Have you ever in America gone to someone's house and they've gotten offended that you've left shoes on? Have you ever had an awkward moment? Or is this just your whole life? Everyone in America is just wearing shoes indoors all the time, and there's never any conflict.

There is, but it's really not conflict. It's just people in America, people know if they have a shoes-off house, if they decide that, they know to tell you immediately.

Yeah, we have a shoes-off house. You do?

Oh, okay, here we go.

Yeah.

Okay, this is amazing.

Is this because I hate to stereotype?

Because Natalie's Asian? Yeah. No, my house growing up was also shoes-off.

It's definitely like New Zealand, Australia, and generally a lot of Asian cultures, it's shoes-off. Asian countries, yeah.

Why in your family?

Why did you grow up?

What was the reason? I think because my mom was like a neat freak, clean freak, germ freak.

And how do you enforce it? Is it verbally, or do you put signs around the house saying, check your shoes, make sure they're off?

It's sometimes a contentious thing.

Because you forget?

No, we put a shoe rack at the front door, so it was kind of a signal. And now ours is on the inside.

Who's not doing it, you or her?

No, no, it's more like friends come over. And then I'm obligated, like we'll have friends that will just come in with their shoes, and then I'll get a text.

From Natalie?

Yeah.

You guys, oh my God. I support this. Absolutely not.

If you're going to be a shoes-off household in America, you can't be passive-aggressive. You have to be able to say, hey guys, leave your shoes at the door.

We normally do, but sometimes I won't. Sometimes, if I'm not close enough with someone, I feel weird.

And if you're having like 20 people come over, it's like a lot of shoes to police. And it's an uphill battle. Then you just deal with it. It's an uphill battle, having to do it.

Wow. Well, you could have a sign on the door, I guess.

Yeah.

Maybe that's what we need to do, is to have a sign. Okay. So what about, and this is in your world, because I want to know the limits of this, because I've watched some American TV shows, and this is what I was thinking about as well. Okay. I've seen shows where there'll be characters on a bed.

That's disgusting. That's disgusting.

I agree. So the shoes come off. There's limits.

Yes. Not on the bed.

Okay.

Carpet, though? Do you have carpet in your apartment?

No.

Okay. What about the couch? I have rugs, though. Someone kicks their feet up on the couch.

Okay. The couch is a little bit more of a gray area. To me, bed is a non-negotiable.

It's an oh-go. Yet the shoes are off.

Although I have seen Dax on his bed, sometimes with his shoes on. Yeah.

It's common, I think.

He hates, not wearing shoes. He's the opposite.

He wants the Tootsies wrapped in a- Always.

He needs to be ready to run out the door.

Yeah. Okay. Right. He's ready for action.

Yes. For me, absolutely not in bed.

On your own couch, I feel like you can stretch things.

Oh, I would never do it on someone else's couch.

You wouldn't do it on someone else's couch?

No, no, no, no, no.

Yeah, okay. Yeah.

But in my apartment, just me on an average day-.

Yeah, average day. While I'm cooking. Bouncing around the house, cooking. I'm probably wearing- Shoes are on.

Shoes most of the time.

You're leaping out of bed and the shoes are sort of putting the shoes on? No, no, you're right.

When I wake up, no shoes until I get ready to leave.

Okay.

And if it's rainy, are you taking them off as soon as you get in? Or are you just wiping them?

Yeah. Yeah, I am. Wet day. I'm taking a rain boot off.

You're not tramping your wet boots all over the house. Little wet marks everywhere.

Or if I'm wearing high heels, those are off immediately because they hurt.

I found something out recently. Until about a year ago, I was wearing a shoe size one too small for my feet. And I got bunions. I always thought that was normal, but someone saw my feet and they were like, that's disgusting.

And then you moved up a size and it felt better?

And I was like, yeah. And I always thought, my whole life for sort of 40 years, I thought these are a bit tight, but I'd always known I was a 12.. But then I tried in a store, I tried a 13 just to see what happened.

And it was great.

I was like, oh my God, this feels like I'm floating on a cloud. And so that's been a new thing I've discovered recently. And I think maybe that's why I am so anti-shoe. Because a lot of my life may be constrained. Because I'm too much of an idiot to think maybe I should try a size up.

I think it's actually more your New Zealand, tall poppy syndrome. You didn't want to be a person who had a size 13.. Because that's a big shoe.

13 feels like, you. look at the 13 shoe and you're like, oh my God. I look like clumpy, old clumpy over here. Well, no.

I think in America, we think a big shoe size is cool.

That's a cool thing. It's like a penis size thing as well. It's all that thing. I just see a big ugly shoe. I'm like, this is ridiculous.

It did?

But look, we'll see how it goes. And I talked to someone in the episode who's kind of amazing. I really like her.

Oh, fun. Okay.

I knew I wasn't alone in my worry about what I was seeing unfold all around me. Like the saying goes, don't judge a book by its cover.

And I think I chose you as one of the candidates for the speed dating.

because I agree the point that, never judge a book by its cover.

Oh, nice. Yeah. Love on the Spectrum is one of my favorite shows. And while browsing the show's Reddit page, I found this. Why do the Americans wear shoes inside the house?

Yeah, what's that you say?

In six months, I'll make a duchess of this draggle tail gutter snipe. Thinking of Eliza Doolittle, I knew who I needed to talk to to get to the bottom of this shoes inside situation. I needed a modern day Henry Higgins, because this was a question of etiquette.

My name is Elaine Swan. I am a lifestyle and etiquette expert. And I spend my time helping people to navigate a variety of social situations. And I have a whole lot of fun doing it.

I spent quite a bit of time Googling American etiquette experts and was surprised to find there are quite a few here. But I ended up settling on Elaine, because I liked the name of her school, the Swan School of Protocol. It sounded like it had authority that I could trust it. How did you get into that line of work?

I became an etiquette professional by being a student of etiquette. I started out as a young age at charm school. My mom felt like that was something that was necessary for me to kind of really help increase my confidence. And it actually worked. And from there, I moved into the pageant industry.

Twenty years is impressive, and I knew I'd come to the right woman. I also felt like I'd been transported back into another time with this talk of charm schools and etiquette professionals. It occurred to me I could probably do with some of her training. I use my phone at the table all the time, and my friends accuse me of not listening to them properly.

So here in America, one of the things that I notice is that folks have a tendency to say that etiquette is a lost art. And I think the thing that's been lost is the formal teaching of what we're supposed to do when we interact with people. I think that's the part that's lost. But the desire that people have to not offend others still remains the same. I mean, everywhere we go, whether we're in the parking lot, at the grocery store or we're online, or we're in the workplace, people still want to be respected, and they still feel that we should conduct ourselves in a manner that is considerate towards others.

I remembered my mission for this episode. Find out where shoes inside the house fitted into America's core values.

Well, statistically speaking, what studies have shown is that 2 out of 3 Americans do not wear shoes in the house at all. That's for certain.

She's right. I've looked at some recent surveys, and, in general, 63% of American households take their shoes off inside. That's good. But it also means that 37% of Americans think it's okay to wear shoes indoors. Why?

But one of the things that I find is unique is they are not wearing their shoes themselves in the house. When guests come over, they most certainly do allow guests to keep their shoes on. Whereas in other countries, the first thing you're thinking is, you know, shoes off, buddy. You're not traipsing that stuff up in here. But for whatever reason, Americans, they just let you just come on up in the house with your shoes on and bring whatever's on the outside to the inside.

And that's what alarms me, the stuff that's on the bottom of a shoe. I don't care how disgusting your feet are, I feel I'd rather have a disgusting foot than a disgusting shoe tramping all around my house. I'm watching an episode of Inside Edition who recently looked at what you find on the bottom of a shoe.

Disgusting.

It's understandable.

Streets and sidewalks are covered in filth.

Dog poop.

But we wondered how much of that germy stuff could you really be tracking into your home and could it make you sick?

The reporter did a bunch of testing and found that, yes, shoes are disgusting. It's something that alarms etiquette expert Elaine Swan as well.

The etiquette part of it is how to tell folks to take those shoes off when they enter your home. So yes, we're definitely leaving them on, but we should be asking people to take them off, and you can do so nicely.

Because I feel as a New Zealander, we are so worried about offending other people, I find it incredibly difficult to bring something up like that. So I'd probably benefit from the school myself, to be honest.

Absolutely. So. here's how you do it. If someone arrives to your home and you are a shoes-off person, you can say this. Welcome!

So you're with me on this. You know, shoes should come off at the door, right? That seems sensible.

I believe shoes should certainly come off at the door.

For the first time in a long time, I feel sane. An American agreeing with me. Still, Elaine says there are some exceptions to taking your shoes off indoors, but they're rare occasions and not an excuse to wear your filthy shoes inside all the time.

Now you will find there are some instances where people would prefer to leave their shoes on, and that's when we're looking at maybe it's part of your ensemble. So you've invited folks over for a cocktail party, or maybe there's some sort of sports gathering and you've got the whole outfit on with the matching jersey and the matching sneakers, or what have you, and people are coming through. But if someone's coming over and they're just hanging out, they're lounging around, most certainly invite your guests to take their shoes off.

Interesting take, Monica. Monica, you are strongly disagreeing with some of these. It's a different take on shoes.

Well, one, I'm really glad she reminded me about fashion. How could I have forgotten? That's a huge piece of this.

Yeah, if you turn up in an outfit.

Yes, and I have to take my shoes off often. The shoe is a huge part of the outfit. It's part of the thing.

So the whole outfit falls apart as the shoes come off.

Exactly.

It makes sense.

Also, if I go to someone's house... Rob, this is for you. If I go to your house and you say, hey, wear shoes off house. Feel free to put them there. And if you want a sock, I'll throw up on your floor and then step in it in my shoes and walk all over your house.

Ew! I think in this case, they're buying separate socks. Natalie's mom has asked for socks from Natalie. I know.

From your mom to your daughter, maybe. But if I'm just at someone's house...

But if you came to my house, say, Monica, come over. Come over tonight, 6 o'clock. Meet my ghost. Yeah, meet the ghost at dinner and stuff. And you get to the door and there is a beautiful pair.

Yeah, the little plastic thing.

Little plastic thing on. And there, can you please take those filthy... I have, yeah. There's some dog shit on your shoes. There's some old bit of hair.

And I don't want to look at your feet.

There's a tampon. But I don't want to look at your feet. And I want your feet to be in a sock. A tampon? Ew!

Okay.

Would you do that?

Yes.

Yeah, new sock.

That is a ridiculous...

And then what I do, and then, when you leave, you take the socks off. Yeah, and then, when you come back to the house, those can always be your socks to wear at my house. No.

No, you have another new pair.

You have to buy new pairs every time. Another fresh pair. Oh God, it's going to get expensive.

If you're having a big cocktail party, and you have to buy 30 pairs of socks,

absolutely not!

Some people will be wearing their own socks, and some people can go barefoot if they want.

Some people could go barefoot.

I don't know if you do laundry the same way. I do laundry, and maybe you're leaving some mold on the sock, and you're not letting it dry, not drying it all the way,

and it's stinking. You don't trust the washing of the sock. I do remember now, one time I went to buy a pair of shoes, size 12, the wrong size. I went in in jandals, which is the New Zealand word for flip-flops, and so they had a big thing of socks that I could put on to try the shoes, and that felt bad. I think they were socks that other people had maybe used before, and I wasn't happy about that.

How do you feel about what's happening right now?

Okay, so interesting. Yeah, you are cross-legged, and one of your shoes is on the sofa.

The chair, yeah. The chair. Yeah, but with a fabric chair.

What was that?

Cha.

A fabric cha. That's really good.

No, see, this is the root of the problem.

But I think I do this sometimes.

I didn't notice.

It's different in a workspace, though. I don't think it's weird that we wear shoes in here.

But do you think it's weird?

that it's on the fabric chair, though?

Let me see the bottom of that little foot. Let me see it. They're not too bad. They're not too bad. They're not too bad.

Have you been anywhere that, have you seen when someone will have, like, slip covers for your shoes? So if you want to keep your shoes on.

Yeah, pop them over. They've got little slips. That's a good idea. A little plastic bag. And a rubber band.

They make those. Yeah, that's what I'm doing for you. They're like a hair net for shoes.

Yeah, I'm going to give you those.

You turn up. When you turn up, I'm going to have a hazmat suit that you put on. Just cover the whole body. I don't want any part of you. Anna, you don't even want me.

I shed like crazy. Are you a shedder? my hair will be in your apartment for sure.

Yeah, right.

This is what I would normally do. I've now taken my shoes off, so that, see, you barely even notice.

I haven't noticed.

Okay, Monica's just taking the shoes off. These two shoes are now sat there. You're comfortable doing this. Your feet are not sweaty or smelly. They're great feet.

I feel comfortable taking my shoes off here in this attic and being in socks on the chair. But you know what I definitely don't want to do? I would not want to walk right now in my socks to the bathroom.

You know the worst thing I've ever seen in my life?

What?

The flight to New Zealand. It's a 12-hour flight. Oh, what? Bathrooms get pretty nasty. I've seen some people walk into the bathroom in socks.

I think socks are so much more disgusting than shoes. Really.

Well, public places. Yeah, you don't wear socks on the ground.

Yeah, that was one of the worst things I've ever seen.

But your home is not a public place.

That's true.

Interesting, though. Sort of this perspective of cleanliness of the house. Your own foot.

Yeah.

It's like a balancing act between those two things.

I'm being selfish. I'm protecting my foot.

Yeah.

Instead of protecting your apartment.

Yeah.

And my own apartment, though. I don't care if people wear shoes.

Yeah, completely. It is the other feet.

You know, the feet.

are an interesting thing. I just seen the other day, and this is an argument that always goes on in the internet. Do you clean your legs and your feet? Because there's an argument that, because you're soaping up the rest of you, as you wash it off, the soap just goes over your legs and your feet. So the feet often get ignored.

So then you're walking in places in a yucky foot.

Yeah.

So it is getting dirty. Just your regular foot is getting stuff dirty.

You're probably right, actually.

Traveling's fun. I'm feeling antsy for some travel.

It hits you, doesn't it? And travel represents different things to different people. Some people can go far. But even just traveling to a different state is amazing. You get to do that.

for this show all the time.

I feel incredibly lucky and you want booking to be easy and Booking.com gives you that.

Yeah, from relaxing beach resorts to remote cabins, so many places you can go and on Booking.com you can be wherever you want to.

I'm going to South by Southwest for the first time and actually all the official accommodation is crazy and gone. so I'm actually going to try Booking.com to do this, because I need to find something and I need help with that stuff. My brain isn't great. I need a website that makes it easy and simple and I can see Logistics. Yeah, logistics.

will help me for that. This spring, check out Booking.com for your ideal hotel or vacation home, no matter where you go in the US. Book, whoever you want to be on Booking.com. Booking.yeah.

Well, look, I had this etiquette expert in front of me. I couldn't just talk to him about this, so I thought I'd get some other etiquette things out of the way. Ooh, I like this. I want to learn. I dive deeper.

I mean, kids can really be rebel rousers at home, but parents really want them to show up at their best when they step outside that door, and so when we're looking at children and teens, we're definitely focusing on helping them to navigate social situations, assisting them by giving them the tools that they need to communicate effectively so that they can navigate throughout the world. Now, when we get into the college age and young adults, now, we're starting to look at serving these folks in an area that allows them to have those skills. as they're entering into the workplace. Your parents are no longer there to talk for you. They're not going to help you along the way.

She also works with a lot of adults, and something she's worried about in America is the way Americans have learned to do Zoom calls since the pandemic.

One of the things that I see nowadays that tends to be a huge mistake that people are making is their video conferencing. We were thrown into this whole video conferencing era and not necessarily having any rule book or what have you, which, of course, I'm working on that. So we've got this rule book that we're starting to develop now, because people are making mistakes. They're thinking that just because we are not in person, that somehow we don't necessarily have to show up at our best.

And.

so you see people doing kind of the high-low, where they're wearing whatever they think is okay on top and sometimes nothing at all at the bottom. In addition to that, we're eating, we're drinking, we're doing different things, we're doing things online that we wouldn't necessarily do in person. And I think that's a big mistake that people make. I mean just think about it. You wouldn't be in a business meeting and just all of a sudden, out of nowhere, stand up and walk away from the conference room table in the middle of someone's sentence without excusing yourself.

doing this online?

I admit I've completely let etiquette out the window on Zoom calls. I hate Zoom calls. I find it really hard to sit still long enough to record this podcast, let alone sit staring at a screen for an hour or more. I walk on Zooms, I eat on Zooms, I'm a disaster on Zooms and Elaine Swan would not be happy. Next, I turn to something we discussed in episode 16 of Flightless Bird.

Tipping is not something that simple. that says that you would tip 20% across the board.

It certainly.

can vary. It varies from industry to industry and it also varies depending on the service you receive as well. Now, the word tips comes from the acronym To Improve Prompt Service and there's a whole history behind that. But when you look at that process or that thought process behind it to improve prompt service, you tip based upon the service you receive. Now, here in America you are always expected to tip at restaurants, and the reason being is because here in America we do not, unfortunately, pay our servers a living wage.

Here's the thing.

I would say to do not go any lower than 10%. if you receive bad service at a restaurant. That would be your absolute lowest. So 10% is the lowest. 15% is your average tip and 20% and above says that you received superior service.

With that settled the 10%, 15%, 20% spectrum. I turned to planes because I noticed something when I went back to New Zealand last time. Usually I fly Air New Zealand, but Delta was doing a special price, way cheaper. so I flew Delta and I noticed there was just objectively way less room on a Delta seat than an Air New Zealand seat and in general American planes just seem to have a bit less room for your body. They tend to stack humans in as tightly as possible to make as much profit as possible.

and wrist on planes tends to be a dilemma for a lot of folks, and I've got the answer. The person who is sitting in the middle seat. they should get both of the armrests that are in that row. Now.

etiquette.

would dictate that you're not supposed to start a big fight on an airplane. So, if you find that someone is just not being kind and just not wanting to share that space, then this is where you can do one of two things. You can speak to the person directly and say you know, I'd like to be able to put my elbow here please. I just want to stretch out a little bit. If they say oh my goodness, sure, yes, great, then enjoy your flight.

Now, I doubt with this question of transport in the sky. I had one final question. A question about transport on the ground. I've noticed consistently since driving in America that whenever I let another car in front of me, you never get a little wave or a thumbs up.

I would say, if you happen to let someone in and they go on about their way, it is certainly polite for them to give a wave, give a nod, give something to say thank you. I wouldn't say that folks who are not doing that means that it's not an American thing. I just think you must be in a rude city where people don't care and they're so busy with whatever is happening in their lives. If you go through different cities here in America, you'll find folks who will give you a nice wave. they'll nod their head something to that effect.

I realized that perhaps this etiquette issue was an LA issue, not an American issue. Next time I'm driving in a different state in Florida or Texas or maybe North Carolina, I'll check to see if I get a wave or not. I've learned a lot from Elaine in this episode, but the main thing I've learned is that I'm right. For once. just this once an American has fully 100% agreed with me.

I believe shoes should certainly come off at the door.

Yes! Elaine Swan legend. Legend. How many people.

did you interview before you got Elaine to agree with you?

She was so down, swanschool.com

She was cool. I liked her.

She thought it all. 20 years in the biz, 4 books under her belt. Wow, She's the expert. Shoes off.

Aye yai yai, I mean okay.

What do you think about the plane situation? I agree with that middle aisle. you should get both spaces.

Fully agree. If you're in the middle, you're in the shittiest seat on the plane. Horrific, You get both.

Yep.

But what about when it's two?

Two what?

Two seats next to each other. It's not. there's not a three seat, it's a two Right.

That's most common. I think it comes down to if.

It's whoever puts it first.

Yeah, there's that. There's that because some people do.

I know.

And I'm always the one that I always get defeated in the elbow thing. I just don't push back enough. I think it should go on size. So if someone's physically bigger and they need more, That is so unfair. No size, No, there's someone's like.

because some people, Yeah, you're big, It's because you're big.

No, no, no.

It's because I'm big And I'm small, But like because you're small, you take up less space. So you're sitting on that. It's like you're at Disneyland. You've got all this room around you, sitting in that little seat.

You guys have no idea what it's like to be small, And also people. being small has nothing to do with having a rest for your arm.

Yeah, They're not related.

at all.

You know this is fair. So how do you decide it when you're on a plane? How do you weigh it out?

I also just defer. I kind of let the other person have it and I just crunch if I. hopefully I'm on a window.

and I just crunch into the window. You're a nice person and you sort of like get, yeah, you just do that thing, But You can alternate during the flight as well, Right Like Jocel. Like they might leave to go to the bathroom in their socks and then vroom, you've got it and like screw them. They come back with their urine riddled socks.

That is actually really true. That's a good time to sort of like, establish a new dominance.

Yeah, Plane etiquette, I mean it's a whole thing.

What about talking to people on planes? Talking to your neighbour?

I have a policy on a plane where I will say a polite hello, so they know I'm not full of hatred for them or something. So I'll say hello and then I nothing headphones in and I make it clear I do not want to be talking during that flight.

Headphones are a game changer for airplane etiquette. Yeah, Because it tells the person everything As soon as the headphones are in, I'm done talking to you. I'm never talking to you again for the rest of my life.

Because planes for me they're like a holiday away from everyone. Yeah, And I love having that space. Yeah, And having a neighbour that's just going to start chatting at random times. Maybe I'm being rude, but it's not for me. It's not for me.

It's not for me either.

What about net? Okay, so this is an interesting thing. Apartment buildings I think I saw a TikTok about this. What's your policy with neighbours? You know how you're always bumping into your neighbours and there's a general feeling of just like oh, I just want to get on with my day and not stop and chat.

I think me and you are unfortunately on the exact same page.

here.

Yeah, we're similar. You're a bit similar to the plane.

I don't want to talk to anyone. I really don't. I wish my apartment was a home where I didn't have to see other people.

Yeah, that's what it is right? That's the difference. because you go to a house, no one's talking to you. You have maybe one neighbour that might yell across the fence. Yeah, But apartments, because sometimes I feel like I emerge from my apartment like a little goblin to maybe like go and do the washing or do something, and it's like a gauntlet and I just know the feeling I get.

We like you.

Like some people, you see, and you're just like. I don't want to talk. leave me alone, but there's no way. you're crossing in the hallway and it's this thing.

No, there are ways. you just nod like a small wave, but you tell people whether or not you're open for conversation.

You sort of glare in your body language, You don't.

I think I've talked about this, maybe on Synced, but there's a person in my life who used to be in my life on a weekly basis.

You're right.

and then many years have gone by right, and now he lives in my neighbourhood. Ah, right, and he walks a ton and I walk a ton, and so I see him all the time. and the first time we stopped we had a whole conversation. Stop and chat, Yes.

Catch up.

Nice to see you.

Oh yeah, Great to see you. Great to see you.

Then the next time, I think both of us internally thought we don't need to do that again, but also what do we do? because we know each other? and so I think we just hey, how are like it was a little bit quicker.

of a conversation and you're probably both going through a similar internal process, 100%.

Yes, and now, when I see him, I just put my hand up as a little wave. that's it. we're on the same page. you tell people with your eyes and your body language you invite that or you don't.

I had a similar but worse version of that at an airport line where I bummed into someone lining up to check bags in and I hadn't seen them in a long time, had a great stop and chat, but then, because of the way the line went around,

Oh, no.

you kept seeing them like two minutes later.

for about.

I don't know, like ten iterations of the line, and it was like being trapped in the inner circle of hell. oh my god, it was a horrific time. I was getting sweats, it was like it got so bad and it was just socially horrific.

well, did you just put headphones in? again? if you always have headphones on you? yeah, you're sorted, you're fine.

yeah, any situation. the headphones save you.

that's the other thing with the walks. normally I have headphones in, so it's just easy that whole.

apple vision thing will be even better for that, won't it?

oh my god. yeah, etiquette's a real question and I do think it is so different in different countries. the driving is for sure regional.

yeah, no, and that is very LA. yeah, it's just I always leading people in, and when I don't get a little wave, I'm like my internal is like fuck you.

you have rage in the car.

I do have rage in the car.

yeah,

one other thing, just because variety of topics that I like sort of internet etiquette. Hillsong Church has been a bunch of documentaries about it, not a great church. their old leader, Brian Houston, left for a variety of reasons, but he did a great tweet last night.

ok.

this mildly ties into the whole etiquette issue. so at 11.41pm Brian Houston tweeted ladies and girls kissing. so clearly what he had done is he had gone to search in Google for ladies and girls kissing, but he had accidentally tweeted it no.

are you sure?

no, no, this happened. I saw it all unfold. so 15 minutes later, no, he deletes the tweet and he tweets. I think my twitter may have been hacked, which is so good, because, A, if you are hacked, the hacker isn't going to tweet. ladies and girls kissing.

wait, it's just.

everything about. it is heaven. but the etiquette. I was just thinking it's really a stretch. but just the etiquette of tweeting accidentally.

oh, that's funny. ok well, what about texting etiquette?

texting etiquette. that's an amazing thing. what I've done occasionally with text is I have replied to the wrong person in another conversation. that's the worst. that's the worst, and there's a few times I've done that and I've been like ok, I've just sent this person this image.

wait, so you're saying you actually send it on purpose, no.

I'll accidentally send something to someone and instead of saying, oh, I'm sorry, that was meant for someone else, I'll come up with an elaborate explanation of why you sent. wait, why would you do that? I've got hacked. yeah, I'll do it, because I get embarrassed that I've done it and I don't want you to feel like I wasn't texting them.

oh, that's so weird.

and so I'll come up with a thing of why I sent them that thing, and it will be quite a convoluted story.

it's much weirder for me if you send me, like I don't know, just a random picture of a bird poop.

or something, and I'll send it to you afterwards, yeah.

I'm gonna be so much more weirded out.

I haven't done it to you. I haven't accidentally texted you yet.

yeah, I don't remember. I don't remember having experienced

well, you obviously wouldn't know because my explanation is so smooth.

or so good, but I think I would feel much better if you were like oops wasn't for you, because then I'd be like oh, he's in another weird conversation with somebody.

yeah, and that's what it often is.

as opposed to your brain, is wanting to send me that.

yeah, now it's. I'm pretty sure I'll probably think about that. it is tied in with my not wanting to.

what is that? look like you messed up.

yeah, kind of, but then you look weirder.

well, I think it's a technology thing, maybe with you too, where you want to be good at technology.

or that's part of your identity really seem to be this like inept, bumbling idiot on a phone, which I often am.

me too. I mean we're over 30, we're gonna be bumbling a little bit. that's part of it. oh man, but okay more, because I don't know what you're talking about.

is etiquette. I've gone off a different tangent. just my own personal weird problems.

etiquette is more like what are the rules? what are the rules for if someone texts you, how long can you go without texting back? like, what's the rule for that?

a nightmare I've had a few times is that I've had red receipts. on not knowing so, I found out after about 5 years that I had red receipts with someone and they told me my perception of the entire last 5 years changed, because I'm like fuck all those times I've like waited, I haven't seen. they've seen it. I've seen it and I've just left it.

I think if you're a nice, good person in this world and you are texting with someone and they have red receipts on, it is your obligation as a good person to tell them hey, just so you know, and I'm sure you're doing this on purpose, but just in case you aren't, you have red receipts on.

yep.

you have to tell them.

yeah, I mean my friend told me after 5 years that's too long. I didn't like that. that's not a good friend. no, I agree, you do have to tell them. I think you should reply with me.

what if it's something?

that doesn't need a reply right. that's why I like the thumbs up now, true.

I've been told the thumbs up is sarcastic. recently, no, someone got offended that I was giving them thumbs up and I'm like no, that's just a confirmation.

they thought you were.

being mean. they wanted a love heart instead of a thumbs up.

oh, my god, this is so. this is really yeah, but I'm the type of person I do not need a response. right, if I'm not asking for a response like, I do not need that. in fact, I prefer not another chime or another something for me to then have to look at. leave it.

leave it yeah, else it can go on and on, and on and on, yeah.

so my personal views, I think, don't necessarily match because, same with email, I am so uninterested in just banter or got it. thanks like no, we don't need to do that. I have enough emails. yeah, okay.

yeah, no fair, I think I'm the opposite. I always feel obliged to reply, but that's more of an impulsive. I need to like, say like sign it off and deal with it, but of course that just keeps it going on, potentially for a very long time.

well, I think most people are like you, which is why I think I can look more callous, but really I'm just trying to be efficient, I'm just like.

we don't need to keep.

yeah,

voice memos versus text hate em.

hate em. I hate voice memos so much.

you don't like seeing 10 2 minute voice memos.

I get grossed out.

sometimes by them. I agree, it's a step too far and it's a rare occurrence. I've got some friends. I do it because it's kind of funny. we have done it.

a couple of times actually.

we have done it.

yours. don't gross me out, I usually do it.

when there's like something a bit funny to talk about, or it's more amusing, or if there's something.

that you have to explain like that's fine. if there's, sometimes I do it with Emma. if I just like really have to explain something and I don't want to whatever too hard to text. okay, dating and voice memos.

oh no,

what do you think about that?

it's too much. I know it's too much, too soon, I agree. no, no, no, I mean that's the thing we're living in this time, where communication there's just too much of it on every fucking medium. there's every imaginable DM on every service, and there's emails and there's texts and there's voice memos and there's facetimes. and now we've got vision and it's just there in your fucking 3D in front of you.

it's complex. it's complex.

we could do a part 2, but we've learned it's complex. we've learned that shoes should come off indoors. your shoes, Monica. you started this episode with your shoes on. they're now off.

they don't feel good, I want to put my shoes.

does it feel airy and light? no, they feel.

look, I'm itching, you're itching.

and they're scratchy. oh god, let me seal them back in those shoes again.

yeah, alright, if I come over, I will take my shoes off and I expect a brand new pair of socks.

a brand new pair of socks. what size socks do you use?

definitely if it's those extra small.

extra small socks.

I wear a five and a half shoe. that's a small foot.

ok, I'll get you a little pair of socks and one of those little fishnets as well, in case you don't want to take them off, so you can like clomp, clomp, clomp, clomp, clomp, clomp, clomp clomp.

clomp, clomp.

it's like you wanted me to dress up.

some sort of.

S&M or something.

yes, but weirder, when you come over. oh, I went to David's house. I didn't like it. it was quite weird. I didn't have a good time.

he said the ghost wants you to wear these fishnets.

change into a skirt.

yeah, good.

oh boy, alright, Patrick comin' out.

just really quickly. you mentioned I'm at charm school, yes, which I didn't know about, so that's a thing. you mentioned something else.

I want you to do an episode on debutante balls.

What the hell is a debutante ball?

Okay. A debutante ball, it often happens in the South, sometimes in the Midwest, too. It's girls becoming women, sort of. Right.

So they're at school or it's the end of school and they're- Well, no.

It's not related to school. It's completely separate from school. And I think they do go to etiquette classes and it's kind of like their graduation from being, I think, a girl into a woman. It's a whole ball.

Dancing and a dinner.

Dancing. Fancy dresses.

And they're all, the shoes are on, I imagine. Yeah. The shoes are on. The shoes are on.

People who are debutantes, it's a vibe. Okay. It's a Southern vibe. But I think, Elizabeth of Elizabeth and Andy, she was a debutante or is a debutante.

Also, I could go to one of these balls and kind of see what the-.

I think you have to be invited. It's like a wedding. It's free. It's like a wedding.

Young women. So maybe you shouldn't just show up.

Yeah. And that would be weird. Yeah. But I get invited by someone. I could go along to the thing.

I wonder what the difference is between American weddings. And I mean, obviously, Indian weddings are very specific.

Oh my God. I can't wait to do an Indian wedding one day.

So, so specific. But-.

I think American weddings would just be probably the same, but maybe just a bit bigger and maybe a bit more pomp and ceremony, maybe. But I mean, they're probably the same in New Zealand.

Well, compared to New Zealand, maybe. But again, New Zealand, it wants everything to be so small. Yeah.

Also, I didn't want to go to a wedding and be like the only one that like, I wouldn't know anyone there.

Talk about etiquette. There's so much wedding etiquette. Oh my. Like, you can't bring a plus one in unless you've been invited to bring a plus one.

I can't deal with weddings. I do not like going to weddings. It's a whole-.

I love weddings.

It's too much. They're too long.

What about the romance?

No. I get very-. What about the love? Cynical. I get very-.

Do you get grumpy?

I get grumpy. David. Yeah. You're sitting next to people. There's a dancing at the end of the night.

And I want you to do an episode on them, because if, I think you might, if you get a little bit bit by the love bug, then you will become more American.

I'll get more. Yeah. That is a part of it, isn't it? Yeah. It's the whole Disney warmth.

Wait. Did you have a manners class in grade school?

No.

Oh my gosh. We had to do that where it was like-.

So you went to, you also went to like a debutante. No.

It wasn't a debutante. It was like- Charms. Third or fourth grade and you got paired up with someone opposite gender- Right. And had to go to a dinner.

No.

Yeah. What is this? You had to go to a dinner and they taught you how to cut with a fork and knife and pull the chair out and all the etiquette. And I got paired with a girl that had like a crush on me that I couldn't stand. And then a foreign exchange boy.

What a cute little group.

What a cute little dinner. All trying to figure each other out.

Who takes you guys to these dinners? This feels shady as hell.

This was grade school. This was like third grade.

But, like the teacher takes you?

Yeah. The teacher. You go to another- It was like a field trip.

Oh, my gosh.

Two, three.

This is weird. It was all the class.

I think we're learning. maybe you got groomed.

Maybe stuck.

Oh my gosh. That's amazing.

So that is like this whole etiquette, it's really built in. I mean, I was just amazed that, like Elaine, had this one school for 20 years, you know, for 20 years. It's incredible.

No, people really- I mean, I wouldn't have minded how to learn about all the, where the forks, there's so many forks and knives and- Yeah, different.

Yeah, different.

You don't know what you're supposed to do for what.

What side they go on.

Yeah. Yeah.

Plates.

I'm going to go see, Ms. Swan.