Jonathan Van Ness

Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. I'm Dan Shepard. I'm joined by Mrs. Mouse.

Hello.

Hello. We got to say something at the front of this episode.

We do. I do want to also maybe put up a trigger warning, because we talk about trans rights. Yep. In this episode, and it could be triggering. For sure.

We end up, I would say, inadvertently, we end up hashing out one of the debates, maybe two of the debates that are currently being had right now in the country. It's a very sensitive topic that we tackle.

Extremely. Understandably.

Yes.

It should be. A lot of people's rights are on the line.

Yes. In many, many states.

Yeah. So, it's really important to have these types of conversations.

It's my opinion that these conversations are happening a ton and that they're not happening in public as well.

Right.

Jonathan Van Ness. Yes. Who? I want to say I fucking love. Yes.

He is. Yeah.

It's also really important that we promote why Jonathan was here, which is he has new episodes of his podcast out every Wednesday, Getting Curious, which is fantastic, and he talks to a bunch of great experts and he is so curious. And he's launching several other podcasts in the curious world, Curious Now and Pretty Curious. Curious Now is where they are keeping up with the elections, with climate change, LGBTQIA plus rights and other news stories. Pretty Curious is where they're talking all things beauty. So please check those out and also feel free to check out his books Over the Top, Love That Story and Peanut Goes for the Gold.

He's an object expert.

He's an object expert.

He's an object expert. I love your studio. It's so amazing. Oh, thank you. I'm literally recording in my office, but it's not giving podcast vibes.

The studio is not your space. Yeah.

Yeah. And it's like so nice, just like come right over, and we're like launching these, like two new ones. And it's like I like. I actually faster turn around on them.

You need to be right over there.

Exposing all of your electrical.

I love that. Easy access, you know. It's right there.

Feel free to take that idea and apply it. No, it's really good. I like that.

Also, if you need to charge a phone.

Don't threaten me with a good time, because, can I tell you, because my husband is with me, not my assistant. My phone's almost dead.

And how much does your husband love being treated as your assistant when he's in this situation? Oh, look, he has a portable.

Mark, don't chime in on this, OK? I know you're going to be a fight.

I love Mark's shoes.

Cute, right? Yeah, really good. He's like so attractive.

Yeah. And he's a ginger, which is exciting. I know, right? And if you learn, probably from Mark, ginger in England is a much different thing than it is here.

Oh, God, yeah.

You're like a full-on marginalized citizen in the UK. Duracell.

Oh, no.

What was that?

Duracell. You know, like the ginger bit on top of a Duracell bathroom. Oh, Duracell. That doesn't even work.

It's very niche.

That's gold. That's not red.

Yeah.

There's nothing more offensive than when someone's trying to slam you and they have it wrong. It's just like structurally not there. Can't even fucking do it right. Right. It's like the foundation's broke.

I liked when you had one ear out. It was really giving me like singer-songwriter, you know? Oh, sure.

Do you long to be a singer? When asked what superpower I would want, I do want to feel what Adele feels like when she opens the whole cannon up and lets it blast. That has to feel euphoric.

I want it so bad. The worst part is that sometimes I think I can. Sure. And the next thing I know, I'm really committed. And then when I end up listening to it, I'm like, wow, it's not going well.

What I don't recommend to you, because I'm very similar, is to marry a professional singer. Because even in the moments you think...

Okay, great.

I made some assumptions. I did some thin slicing there. We don't know. I did not think Mark was a professional. You're right.

He's actually like, I dreamed a dream of times gone by. No. Okay, that wasn't bad. Better than me.

Yeah. Already.

Okay, I just have to name it. I have to get out of my system right now. I know that this is yours. I just have to name it or I'll never stop thinking it. And then I'm not going to be able to pay attention.

Oh, it's a beat down, you know? I definitely over index with men than I do with females.

Well, because you are so in the arousal template of gay and queer and non-binary. It's the Adam's apple.

It's the Adam's apple, right.

It's the scruff. It's also the asymmetrical tattoos. It's also, I mean, not to be disgusting, so off the bat, but it's that sinewy fucking body, honey. Oh, wow. You know that hug?

You know what I'm saying?

Never been safer.

He's a really good hugger.

Oh, thank you guys.

Between the eyes, the hug, the stubble, I was like, I'm overwhelmed. My therapist says that when you're feeling like that, you just have to name it. The alert. And then you're like, wait, everybody's just people. You don't have to sexualize everyone, you know?

Oh, my God, you two are the same. No, we're the same. Listen, in my research of you, I've discovered we're virtually the same person. Really? Yes, yes.

Casual.

She's so wonderful, right?

Actually, not to also name drop, I did wash her hair, thrice. You did? At an amazing salon where I got my start. Nicest, most amazing. Did you love her?

Strong, right?

Yes, but-.

But kind.

So nice. So nice. She called me Jesus.

Oh my gosh, that's a really accurate description.

I once greeted her with my hair blown out straight, and she was like, oh Jesus, your hair is straight today. Because it was always curly. Right.

You have extraordinary hair. It's beautiful.

Not to take away the comment, but it would be bad if it wasn't great. But it is great.

Thank you. It would be the equivalent of me not being able to parallel park. Your whole identity is in jeopardy now. Because this is what you're supposed to be able to do. Okay, Jane Fonda.

Yes. Okay, it's really funny. we're talking about that, because I literally just did that with my social media manager. Sorry to my husband about it. We love Jared.

I think, if I'm being my most honest, what I think really happens in that moment is I admire her. I respect her. I want her to love me, because I now want her approval, because I've deemed her as really high status and wonderful. To me, the first thought of how to get her approval would be I know how to be romantic with this woman. I can do that better than I am a protester or an activist.

I was struggling with an intrusive thought that entire time. It won, because I'm going to not respond to what you said and tell you what my intrusive thought was. Okay, wonderful. Which I thought it would go away if I needed. I was talking about earlier, but it didn't.

I got to tell you a superpower you have. You're saying stuff that probably could get you in trouble, but you talk so fast. People are like, I think you just... Wait, was that... But you're on to the next thing.

It's almost like Sideris. He has that a little bit too, where it's like, but then he's saying something else. And you're like, wait, but that's really...

And he lands the plane on the fifth thought. And you're like, oh, I guess none of that stuff mattered then. Because, wow, he wove that together. I feel relieved.

It's true. But I do think that you and Jane Fonda, leading in a really hot coming of age. She was your like teacher in college. And you like, moved back to like that college town because maybe you got like a job or something.

Conventionally, there'd be a death of a friend.

I was about to say.

It's a tragedy. Because then I'm sad. Yes. I don't fucking know. Obviously.

It's a strike.

We just wrote.

Strike it. It's like literally Watergate. We have to cut it out right now.

Oh, my God. So, Jonathan, this is kind of a long time coming. Wouldn't you agree? I've appreciated you on social media since Queer Eye first came out. No, I take that back.

No, you didn't.

Yeah, yeah. I'm not going to take too much credit. Kristen was obsessed with Gay of Thrones. Do you got to pee again? No.

My vagina's petrified.

Oh, my God.

It's going to crack and hap. It's going to fall out of my body. PQs? I'll do Gay House of Dragons just to do it.

Yeah, what could we? House of, well, House of Drag?

House of fucking non-binary bad bitch. It's too long.

I think it needs workshopping.

Yeah, we can't even do it. We can't write it. We're not fucking doing anything.

But come to us when the strike's over. Yeah, you're so right. I'm hoping as soon. And then we'll come up with a great name.

But what a compliment. It's like the nicest thing anyone's ever said to me in my life.

Okay, so first is Gay of Thrones. She watches it all the time. And then I'm in bed with her. So then I start watching it. And I think it's incredibly funny.

Oh, my God. I just got diagnosed with psoriatic arthritis. Congratulations. I just got on my whatever.

Zeljans or Humira?

I'm not on Humira because of the thing.

I don't know if it's a diet. Mine is 100% diet.

Can I tell you that? Mine is so not. Because I'll be eating clean forever. Bam. Then I'll eat a bunch of Taco Bell.

But for me, it's not about clean or not clean. It's like garlic's clean. That's a whole food. I cannot eat garlic or I get a fucking rash immediately and my joints hurt. And I love garlic.

No, I'd rather just keep having psoriasis. Those are like all my three favorite foods. I can't do that. Same.

Just use whatever you're using.

I'm just going to keep doing my Western topicals. Okay, okay, okay. Yeah, and my injections.

My Western topicals.

Well, you know what I'm saying? I'm not going to go to the root source, okay? Right.

Don't hear the problem. Treat the symptom.

Exactly.

We're also both very well versed in 12-step speed.

Yes, very.

And by the way, so my dad died in 2012,, 28 years sober.

Mine did too.

Same timing? 2012, right?

Yeah, mine was July 6th. Wow.

December 31st, 2012.. Not on New Year's Eve. You guys are the same person. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And in Michigan, it was actually the next year.

Yes. I'm not taking any inventory of that right now. Okay, good.

You don't want to find your part in any of this.

No, no. It's working right now. It's good.

Yeah, I get it.

Which is crazy, because the skin is just peeling off the soles of my feet. Is that where you'll get it? Well, no, it's because before I was using the steroid-based one, right? This flare-up, I was like, fuck me. I need a new dermatologist.

Wait, maybe I'm using it wrong. What's wrong? No, but is it thinning?

Did it thin all your skin?

They say it thins your skin. But then also, it was this thick foam. And when you would rub it in, I would wash my hands off. But then, if you touch your leg again, I had it on my legs, really bad. So I always, when I go to sleep, you know, would have the bottom of my foot on my legs.

You just didn't.

Yeah, because I was like, get rid of this. But honey, all of a sudden, I feel, is this giving me like grandpa skin? So I'm really excited. It just feels so much better. I mean, it's definitely, I feel so much better.

He might have, like carpet, bombed your entire immune system. Do you get it on your penis and scrotum?

Only my butt crack.

Your yes, yes, butt crack.

Butt crack and my butt cheeks. Uh-huh. But not my dick, thank God.

Well, I'm older than you. And guess what? That's where it migrated to.

No.

Do you find that it moves? Like mine is moved.

And mine is whack-a-mole. Yes.

What if he pointed at me every time he said Western and then pointed at you every time he said Eastern?

But do you ever make eye contact with someone while you're saying something? And you're like, that was kind of weird.

I didn't feel it until you said that.

I'm glad that I clarified that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm just trying to drive the awkwardness all the way home. You know, because I felt it, but I'm glad that I really nailed that triple axel perfectly.

I'm happy to embrace that part.

That's a good part. That you have some kind of.

Magical healing.

Well, I wouldn't call it magical, but

It's literally science.

It's a thousand-year-old tradition of a Vedic healing.

I got to interview Dr. Jessica Hernandez, who I'm obsessed with. She's an indigenous scientist. She wrote this book called Fresh Banana Leaves. It's fucking incredible.

Yeah, I think all you're arguing about, really, in these cases, Because I did an Ayurvedic cleanse to deal with this arthritis. Did it help? Yes, entirely. That's where I started realizing, like, Oh, my diet's going to really change this if I focus on it. But I think, really, it's like, They may explain the mechanism, in a way, That Western science doesn't agree with.

I also feel like a non-binary bad bitch. I'm just like a both and.

No reason to pick.

Yes.

Yes, yes. Cherry, pick whatever is working. Okay, wow. So back to.

Recovery. Queer Eye. Oh, Queer Eye, yeah.

We'll get to Recovery. No, I love that. Queer Eye, I went and ordered the same green-tinted moisturizer you suggested. And then I got the beard oil. And then my wife was making fun of me, in a very joyful way.

I smashed that follow-back button so fucking hard. But, you know, it's just interesting going through an experience Where people who you've loved and watched and looked up to And just thought were amazing. It's also funny when you're older than people who you've looked up to. And then they're like, wait, I'm, like, so much younger than you. Why are you talking to me like that?

Can I just point out, you guys were born in the same year, 87..

Ah, what a good year. When's your birthday?

Today's her actual birthday.

Yesterday was my husband's birthday. And today is his mom's birthday. Today's, everyone's mom's birthday.

Tomorrow's my mom's birthday.

It's a really popular birthday.

And Tuesday was my sister's birthday. I know. This is the hottest week in all of birthdays. Is the late August. It's people going up to Christmas.

And they're like, we want a family. It's holiday sex. Do you want to hear a cute fact about us? You pointed to Mark just for the listener. Yeah, about my husband and I.

Oh, that's sweet.

So both of us have our birthdays, like, one day, apart from our mommy. Interesting.

That's perfectly timed, because I do want to walk through your life a little bit. Okay, let's do it. And what I would imagine, having never met your mother, although she was the vice president of this family media company.

Yeah, she had a lot of roles before that, though.

As family business people generally do, right? You end up doing everything at the place. Yes. So you're from southern Illinois.

Technically west central, but yes. Think about how Illinois and, like, the west side of the state. Are you into geography?

Incredibly. And I've driven across the country a hundred times.

If you're looking at Illinois, you know, look at me. So the west side is.

I need to close my eyes. I can't look at you.

Think about, like, how, on the west side it bevels out. There's, like, a pregnant belly, if you will. So my hometown is right where the belly button would be of the pregnant lady. So we're actually the very furthest bit west in Illinois that you can be. Okay.

So it's a pregnant lady profile.

Exactly. She's profile. She's absolutely profile. So the belly button is. Is facing the California.

And she's profile facing.

Belly button's facing California.

No, yeah. The Pacific, yeah. Yes, exactly. Yes. I am so obsessed with our.

I'm from the easiest state to do that to, which is the Mitten of Michigan. And, of course, everyone from Michigan will point exactly to their hand to tell you where they live.

Whereas the Upper Peninsula.

Thirty-five people live there. So no one's ever pointing.

My family had a cabin in this lake in the Upper Peninsula. And we still go up there. In this 18 or 1700s, forever ago, my family went there. And there's this creepy letter, because my family's really into genealogy. This lady named Lucy was so depressed.

Do you know if it was in the wintertime? Because up there, you have very minimal light that far north.

I only went once in the winter. there. I always went in the summer. I jumped off this stair into what I thought was a foot of snow. And the snow was above my head.

And I was like.

They all had to dig me out of the whole thing. My grandpa actually backhanded me in the face. after that. I would have punched a kid in the face for scaring me that bad too. I turned a really peaceful, idyllic moment into a nightmare for everyone.

Kids do that. But you can understand. in their mind, it's a trade-off. It's like, well, I'm going to hurt them this way, so they don't hurt themselves the forever way.

Yes.

Okay, but back to mom. She was, I'm going to imagine, a beast.

Really, really passionate about her work. I love that about her. And she's amazing.

And you lived in this small. What's the population?

40,000.. Like 36,000 or something.

Oh my God. Nearly the same as Monica's Duluth.

Yeah, we just did this earlier today, where we were finding our hometown population.

And I overestimated mine by 2x.

Yeah.

I thought it was 10,000.. It was 5,000..

Oh. Yeah.

It's right where the suburbs turned into hillbilly land and farmland.

Michigan's having such a renaissance. You think so? Why? Gretchen Whitmer fucking flipped the Senate. All three chambers, honey.

I adore her as well. Yeah.

I think she could be a real viable.

Guys, I just saw a clip of Biden yesterday.

He didn't trip Diddy or something? No.

It's way worse. No. He is addressing the victims of the Maui fire. And he is comparing a small kitchen fire he and his wife had in their home to this devastating. And he's all over the map.

The fake news media. But what if it was taken out of context? What if there is a video from right before that video where he's like, look, I'm about to get fucking crazy right now with this comparison.

The only context that could have possibly explained this would be seconds before he walked out, they were like, have this 13 ounces of mushroom tea and go address these people.

Which we like to call snake oil in our house, because you think it's going to be all fun and games until, yes.

Until you meet God, and she isn't exactly what you're expecting.

I'm just hoping that the American public will be able to understand the nuance.

Here's what I refuse to do for any political stance I have. I'm not going to be dishonest. This is insane. that this is our best option. It's insane.

But it is the best option between the two options.

It's the lesser of bad options, you could argue. But fuck that. Like, on our side of the street, we got to push forward the person.

But you know what I think is really different about that, though? It's actually an interesting conversation to have, because I love these fucking chats. Yeah. Having lived in Texas for the last three years, it becomes very different. And so I do have a thing with people who live in liberal states.

Their uncle rapes them. Yeah.

You can't fucking get in a fucking... It's insane. I guess before six weeks. But I mean, who fucking knows about six weeks? No one knows.

As someone who I've heard now in all these interviews I watch, hates anytime you propose something that's binary. You can't paint a picture where I have to lie about... I can still vote for him. Absolutely. I will still vote Democratic, but I don't have to lie and say, I think this is anywhere close to the best person we have as an option to run the country.

And I think this is what makes me an American, is that I have so much love and compassion for even Trump supporters. I do too. But because of the lack of access to education, the access to responsible journalism to actually make informed decisions, he is the fucking best choice we have. Not for you personally, and not for me personally, because we have brains. And those people also have brains.

I don't love how you're framing it right now, which is, if the right was educated, they would pick our side. I reject that. They are conservative. They don't like how quickly the country's changing. I understand that.

No, I think that misinformation and disinformation plays a huge role in that, especially when it comes to gender-affirming care and access to abortion. And misinformation on the left is like...

COVID. You can start with COVID. The most incredibly comprehensive study that looks at all of the journalism from the left-leaning papers during COVID, reporting, the information as it rises, all over the rest of the world, it's about 50-50.. There's some good news, there's some bad news. New York Times, 78% bad news.

The New York Times isn't a left-leaning...

It absolutely is.

They're anti-trans. They platform multiple anti-trans people. And if we want to get my phone out, I can look it up so that I'm not misspeaking. To be against trans liberation and queer liberation in the year of our Lord and Savior, 2023, makes you absolutely not progressive left-leaning.

Let's take one second. So it's a big spectrum. On the very far right, let's say, you would say, my support of trans folks would include them competing in the Olympics. That's the far end of the spectrum. On the very far other end of the spectrum, you have people saying they're not entitled to these rights, they shouldn't be allowed to transition.

How you do anything is how you do everything. So if you're willing to take that risk of platforming someone who is literally in your journalistic institution, I mean, I guess it's in an opinion column, but still...

Is this the one article that was in support of J.K. Rowling? Is that what you're referencing?

There's that one, and then there's several other ones, but especially around gender-affirming care, but also even J.K. Rowling, what she retweets as far as being in support of non-trans inclusion in sports and non-trans inclusion in bathrooms and stuff, have really harmful, real misinformation. I interviewed the trans man who was paralyzed playing rugby that she was tweeting about, and she was saying that this man who weighs like this much is going to curt all these women, and actually, this is a trans man who was paralyzed by a cishet woman.

But hold on, a trans man would be competing against other men.

He was competing with women because he was a woman. He was assigned female at birth. He was transitioning. As he was going through his transition, that was his last game, and he was transitioning to play with men after that. He hadn't taken hormones, but he was going to start hormones.

I think what a lot of people, and what that article in the Times was pointing out, is, anytime you have any questions of a mutant, or any pushback, I think, to say that someone can't question without threatening to take someone's rights away, to explore these things, some people are very uncomfortable about teenagers transitioning. They're challenging that. How do we know that the person's not going to change their mind? Then there's another counterargument. Well, if they kill themselves, then that's really fucking permanent.

I feel like I'm talking to my dad. Okay.

So you've practiced.

Yeah. Which is good. Look, when J.K. Rowling, in her platform, retweets articles that say that if a 20 stone man plays rugby against a 10 stone woman, is she not going to be hurt? That's dangerous.

As someone who has a degree in anthropology, I also think that's very, very high. I know the incident rating of Klinefelters. I know the incident rating of all these. With Klinefelters. Klinefelters is XXY.

Okay, so there's six.

Yeah, there are.

But we don't test all babies for chromosomal abnormalities. and when you look at the levels of infertility in people throughout history and currently, who is to say, and what's to say short, of chromosomally testing every single baby that's born, who's to say that it's not more common? But let's say it is 0.2%. 330 million people live in the United States. So 10% of 330 million is 33 million people.

5% of 33 million would be 6 million.

Okay, so I'm basically just trying to get to like what is 0.2%? Right.

0.2% would be, take off 100, so 300 million would be 1 million, then divided by 5, so that'd be 200,000..

So that's 200,000 people. 200,000 people in the United States and their families and their friends and their loved ones, what bathrooms do they use? Do they get to play sports? Do they get to be included? And also, when we're talking about transition, intersex babies, Alicia Rothweigel has an amazing book coming out.

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert. If you dare.

Sure.

I appreciate what you said.

There is a few things. Little girls who want to just be able to join a dance team with their girlfriends in Iowa or be able to play golf or figure skate without cheerleading. I probably would have killed myself in high school. And I sometimes really wrestle with my gender identity. I'm not sure that I am not trans.

There are many people targeting queer people. Don't want them to have rights. I agree with you. I don't have those opinions. So then for me to sit here.

and watch Jack Shepard parrot a lot of the same things?

No, on one of the issues. But also, I don't know.

how often it's happening.

In the state of Iowa, there was zero trans athletes. And actually, I think in many of the states where trans athletes have been banned all the way through high school, there have been no trans athletes. It wasn't even an issue. It's a boogeyman to make us feel that our girls are being attacked, that their things are being taken away. With fairness in sport, when you look at what is awarded in advertising, sports deals just to men and women on the whole, men get so much more money, so much more coverage, so much more accolades, so much more attention, so much better training opportunities.

the thing that I'm bummed about right now is that if you wanted to lay out your points where you'd say this would make you supportive of the movement, and you laid out ten. If I'm along for nine of them and not the tenth, you file me in this enemy category?

I'm not filing you in an enemy category. Have whatever beliefs you want. Go for it. I'm just saying that it is disappointing when you realize the amount of people who think they're really fighting for something. A lot of people have a lot of concerns about kids, young people making any sort of transition, anything.

That passed?

Oh, yeah. Oh, wow. And in Texas, they're investigating families of trans kids for child abuse. And I protest at the Capitol quite a bit. So I've had a lot of parents come and tell me, like, you know, if these things pass, we have to move.

Yeah, yeah. Gymnast.

There are certain things that will be floor routine. That's like a little more power. But the point is, there is a gigantic spectrum of ability within women and men. Yeah, yeah. Of course.

Well, I definitely think a lot of people who are anti-trans are using this as a Trojan horse. Oh, absolutely. A thousand percent. If you and I can't have a conversation about it, who I think are both well-intentioned...

Well, I do think we have to be... Well, we are, but we have to be careful. I'm a non-binary, fucking trans person. You know, when I talk to my dad or people who say similar things, it's hard to be cool through that.

Right. I think it is exhausting when you just have to constantly be the person to... I mean, we've talked about this a bunch. There's just a threshold of, like, I just can't do it anymore. Sure.

And it's also just little. kids want to play tennis or they want to play basketball or they want to play whatever. So can the kid play if they get on hormone blockers, so they don't go through puberty? Because all of those studies really show that when kids go through hormone blockers, they don't grow, they don't develop the same ways. Like, that seems like it would make it on a more even playing field.

It's like two opposing things are happening. So you can't do hormone blockers, but then you can't play sports unless you've done hormone blockers.

And so all of these things are happening in different governing bodies, in state legislatures, in governing bodies for athletics. Should someone's rights be held over someone else's rights? No, but women aren't not being allowed to play. Trans women are not being allowed to play. Little kids don't get to join a non-competitive dance team.

In L.A., like you said, we're in a major bubble. here. Trans people can do sports with their kids. We're not as aware of what's going on outside.

I'm not calling you a transphobe. You cannot be transphobic and still have thoughts that espouse trans misogyny and espouse transphobic ideologies or beliefs, and not be transphobic. Just like how I have to challenge biases about white privilege and make sure that I'm not speaking over someone who is a person of color or like a Black person if we're talking about racism or police brutality. I just get a lot of little kids who don't get allowed to join groups. I was really bullied for my gender expression as a little kid.

That's most kids.

99% of kids who want to play sports aren't trying to go to the Olympics. Right. Honestly, I just... I wanted to come chat about my podcast, like other shows.

We're going to do that. I did not intend at all to get into a debate with you about this. I didn't want that at all. I adore you. I think you're hysterical and talented.

I could just cry because I'm so tired of having to fight for little kids because they just want to be included. I wish that people were as passionate about little kids being able to be included or grow up as they were about fictitious women's fairness in sports. I have to tell you, I am very tired.

And I'm really sorry.

But I would say it is an interesting schism within Democrats right now because a centrist Democrat... I mean, I, once got canceled on Twitter for saying that all Republicans aren't racist.

Aren't?

Yes. I once got canceled by progressives for saying all Republicans aren't racist. But I have to say that relocating to a conservative state and doing a lot of work on this, I 100% recant that, because you can have racist beliefs and not know you're racist. Just like you can have transphobic beliefs and not realize that you have transphobic beliefs. That doesn't mean you're a bad person.

Yeah, I love a ton of flawed people.

But I do just think there's a lot of casual questioning of things where it's like, I'm not... Because the result is not trans kids getting to play sports, even though that is a result. It's also health care. It's also gender-based violence. It's also just out-and-out violence.

I'm sorry, it was Trigger City. I do think we fell into it honestly talking about whether or not the New York Times was liberal or not. Yeah. Again, sincerely, I did not want you to come in here and then challenge your position on any of these things.

No, no, I understand. It's kind of one of those things like whenever you have one of those, it doesn't even really matter. You're just like, I'm so emotionally exhausted.

I'm sure you're disappointed in me.

I'm not disappointed in you. I'm just like emotionally exhausted from like having people do this.

You're sick of having to defend everything.

Your identity, kids, all of it. Yeah. But also I do think, and I know it's exhausting and it sucks so much to have to be the person where it's resting on your shoulders, and I've done it for race stuff. I do find it helpful for people.

Well, like Brene Brown, who I know you love, she says it's not on black folks to have to set the table for this. For racism, yeah. And I think you're right to feel like it's not on my shoulders to set the table for you.

But there really is so much misinformation. There's one thing I could leave. Little kids are not getting gender reassignment surgery. Three-year-olds are not going and getting hysterectomies. We're not getting fucking breast implants.

No, there's a moral panic, just like there was a satanic moral panic and there was a child molesting moral panic. And yes, now we're in a trans moral panic.

And now because of the sports aspect of that, and that's why I'm so triggered by it, because without cheerleading and gymnastics, I would not have made it. Now, obviously, I didn't even think it was an option for me to try out for cheer as a trans girl. But if I had an affirming family and hadn't been born in 1987, I honestly still struggle with this. It's something I talk about my husband with. I also didn't mean to talk about this now, but I still struggle with my gender expression.

Well, you are.

Well, I am and I'm not.

I think you are. Can I tell you? I think the way you live your life is much more brave than someone doing a backflip on a motorcycle.

That's nice.

Truly.

Because we're scared of people in the Olympics, now, kid, marginal, terrible athletes who just want to learn about communication, team building, how to work together, they don't get that opportunity. And also, when you look at the rates of homelessness, suicide, lack of employment. And I mean, suicide is something we talk about a lot. But when you really look at employment, and life opportunity, when you've been getting made fun of, not a part of the group, you don't get the social skills that everyone else gets, that has social capital impact for the rest of your life. Knowing how to work a room, knowing how to talk to someone, knowing how to put someone at ease, knowing how to take direction, knowing how to be part of a team.

I agree, the vast, vast majority of people who play sports.

But that's why I'm crying, because those are the kids who are paying the price for this. And that is heartbreaking, which in program, false evidence appearing real.

Fear acronym.

Yeah, I love a good fear acronym.

Good, orderly direction.

What's that one stand for? God.

Oh yeah. Good, orderly direction.

But no, it's like, I think, that you can have conversations, and I don't think everyone gets paid in a transphobic bucket, but I also think that the pervasiveness of transphobia, and the depth to which transphobia has seeped into, even left-leaning institutions, which, you know, compared to Breitbart or Fox, is New York Times left-leaning. Absolutely it is. But as I've learned more about the history of scapegoating racism, transphobia, homophobia in the United States, and how the government and the press have worked really hand-in-hand to proliferate a lot of those ideas, I'm citing like the lavender scare here, especially.

Well, and there's the Martin Luther King quote, which is really salient from your point of view, which is like, beware of the white liberal. Yeah. Who will tell you that the timetable you're on is plenty fast enough.

Yeah.

I think what we try to do here is question, and get a little deeper into the nitty-gritty of the debate.

And I'm sure it's completely exhausting. And I did not intend for your time here to be that. I didn't.

No, it's fine.

But also, sorry.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It breaks my heart to think I upset you. I didn't want to—.

Look, you didn't upset me. I just—.

I get it. Yeah, it is what it is. Yeah, I get it. Yeah. Do you know you guys have this cheerleading thing in common?

Do you already know that?

Save my life, too.

From California?

No, Georgia.

But still very aggressive.

Very aggressive.

Very strong cheer community in Georgia. Big time.

High flyer.

Come on. Yeah. Home of Angel Rice, major power tumbler, and also major cheerleader. We love Angel Rice. I don't—.

Uh-oh. No, Angel—.

She was on the U.S. power tumbling team. She was on Top Guns or whatever. She was a major competitive cheer queen.

Well, I wasn't an all-star cheerleader. It was just high school competition. But we did win state twice.

Good for you. That's hard. Thank you.

The routine is very impressive. I've watched it.

Yeah, it's on YouTube. Oh, my God, I need to see the link. Yeah. Yesterday.

Yeah, we'll send you the link.

The pressure of having won and returning as champions. Come on, back it up. The second one is hard. It wasn't a fluke. This will be triggering because we just talked about the Olympics, but I'm going to try to do the Olympics in another thing, because when I was reading about you, I put something together that I'm curious if that's similar.

96 Olympics.

Oh, my God, I'm so triggered. I love the Magnificent Seven so much. Yes. I love them so much. I did get to interview Shannon Miller on the pod.

Oh, my God, what?

I did. I did. And then she unfollowed me on Instagram. Oh, my God.

It's totally fine.

Yeah, she did. She unfollowed the fuck out of me. I don't know why. But she does her handstands on her thumbs.

No, I know. On the tips.

Yeah, so we did that together. I saw it in real life and I was just like, wow, the ergonomics of your fingers are-.

She can still do it?

Yeah, the handstand, yeah. It was in the lobby of my old podcast network. Did the damn thing. Full pirouette, too. On her fucking fingertips.

Oh, my God.

She's hardcore. Nerves of steel. Now, this actually just came up on my YouTube shorts. I was watching the beam final for 2000,, 2004,, 2008, and 12 on the plane this morning. Oh.

Yeah.

Gold medal beam winning, because Nastia had beat her in the all-around. Then they also got silver in team that year because China was unbeatable. Yeah. Yeah. And then she also got silver in floor because Nastia was relentless.

And then I think, I don't know.

And someone beat Shawn in vault, which her M&R was major. I got to look up what happened on that 2008 vault final because I don't understand what happened with Shawn there. But Shawn's beam gold medal, that was her last chance to become an Olympic gold medalist. I mean, she didn't know at the time because, obviously, she was gutting for 12 and-.

It didn't work out.

It didn't work out. That was, Fierce. 5 was a stiff competition, but she did come in 2011 and she was great in 2011.. I fucking love gymnastics so much. It literally hurts my queer bones.

Can I ask? the parallel that I wondered about both of you? Is Monica's in Georgia, she's feeling very other, and she has to be perfect at all times to fit in and not get excluded. You're feeling obvious feelings, being in rural Illinois. To watch something where there is an objective score given based on ability and no other bullshit.

Now, are you seeing how we're so far apart on gender things?

Because it is subjective.

Gymnastics and figure skating is anything but objective, and I love it anyway, but it is incredibly unfair.

Okay. I thought maybe watching someone exert ability and be judged on that and no other shit would.

I love that, too, but everything is involved. If your hair isn't right, if you gain too much weight, but it's done in a different vein, right? It'll be like, her leaps aren't reaching 180 degrees, or she is more of a powerful gymnast than an interpretive gymnast.

They have to reverse engineer what they really like to make it sound legitimate.

So the FIJ, this is actually really interesting, though, if you're into the Olympics and into gymnastics. So the U.S. national championships are end of August, and then they'll select the world team for what's in October. And every four years, there's like a new code of points. The power players that make the rules were like, this was actually like thinly veiled at Simone and just the U.S.

I'm trying to keep it, quote, feminine.

They want to make it more graceful. So now dance and artistry. on balance, beam and floor are as important. if you fall, your form, they can deduct so much just for expression, artistry, especially for musical interpretation. Like that's a new thing now in gymnastics.

Which is a completely different skill.

It's a whole different thing, because I mean, when you're doing that much, twisting and flipping and punching, it's like the dancing was in the 80s and 90s. It was like when you catch your breath. Exactly. Interstitial between tricks. And now these girls got to fucking like, which, in my opinion, is way fucking harder than men's.

Can you tell me what double your chinko is? So she is.

It'll be the Biles when she does it at the Olympics, because it'll be the first time that a woman has performed this ball in international competition. So you're doing a round off onto the board so that you're facing backwards where you came. Then you're doing a backhand spring onto the ball. And then she does. It's really two and a half backflips.

Oh yeah. There's lots of women that are stronger than me, for sure.

But when we transpose that onto fairness and sports, a lot of the argument is men are always stronger than women. full stop. But back to the lighthearted things, because I'm getting there again. Gymnastics is going to be a really fun year.

Really quick, have you been asked to commentate or be involved in the Olympics? I have. What is stopping you? You are an encyclopedia of gymnastics.

Well, it's also like I would almost have to pay to do it, you know? And I'm like running a hair business over here. I got like five fucking cats. I got three dogs. I got a husband.

Why don't you do your own thing?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? Okay. Actually, I'm going to commission you on that, because that's really smart. That's so good.

But you already have a meaty empire.

No, but I was thinking like green screen stadium, you know, and then I just do my little commentator version. Yeah. You know, to do like a little recap, but obviously can't use the stuff because the peacock will come for me.

One more thing, because when you were talking about why we were drawn to it as sort of outsiders, I think it's just the community where, even within the community, if you're killing it, then there's an acceptance there that you can't get any other way. It's so true. It's so true.

Because I was a really good backspot. So it didn't matter that I was like super fucking queer.

No, everyone wanted you.

No. And it's really interesting that people used to say to me in high school, like, you're the most popular kid in school, but no one likes you, but everyone knows you. I would say that to the cheerleaders. I'd be like, thanks, girls. Like that was all you.

You were the first male cheerleader in your high school's history. Yeah.

I got scared. I was like, was there like a yell leader in the 40s or something? Like when it was like a different time, but definitely like contemporary Quincy history. I was the first one with the girls with the skirts.