Disrespectfully - Golden Daddies, Gaslighting Ghosts, and Societal Expectations of Women | Episode 3

Welcome to Disrespectfully. with Katie Maloney and Dana Kathan. Unapologetically, we're here to do what we want to do, spilling the tea. Babe, you're gonna see the power of women, like Disrespectfully.

Hi. Hi. Welcome back to Disrespectfully.

We had your final birthday celebration on Saturday. How were you feeling?

I'm feeling good. Much better than yesterday, when I was fighting for my life.

Yeah, that was a journey.

I was prepared for it. You know, after a night of drinking and celebrating, you don't do anything the next day.

Well, I mean.

I was rotting, with a capital R.

What did your day look like, post-birthday?

Had the birthday dinner, which was chill. And then the next day had the Vanderpump premiere party thing. And that was a night, of course. And then I had a couple chill days, and then Saturday night went out.

Would you describe the Vanderpump Rules premiere party as chill?

That was not chill.

I don't think that was chill.

I said between Saturday and the party, there was chill.

That's true. There was some resting there. And also, we need that in our big, big age. The resting before the storm.

Yeah, no, but yesterday was, I woke up, I had cake for breakfast.

In our household, that was a tradition. If there was cake, if there was a birthday, we got to eat that for breakfast. Which is possibly irresponsible on my parents' part, but I enjoyed it. And that cake was hot fire.

If there's cake in my house.

I'm eating it.

Period. I'm having it for breakfast.

I'm having it.

It doesn't matter if it's my birthday, or not.

You brought me some this morning, I've already consumed it.

Okay, good. I'm just saying, if there's cake in the house, then... I don't know, I'm one of those people, I like to have something sweet in the morning.

Also, after every meal, I'm very much a dessert person. I just got, because I am a fucking five-year-old, adult vitamins that are gummies. Because I have not taken a vitamin since 2009,. I probably have very brittle bones. So I got these, like nature made, and they're covered in sugar.

Do you feel any different?

No, I'm probably more brittle by the moment.

Are they a scam?

Yeah, probably.

I don't really believe that your body can absorb any vitamins or nutrients or anything from a gummy nothing. Unless it has weed or mushrooms in it.

These don't, and that would make for an interesting morning. Who knows, maybe I should roll the dice sometime. I seriously considered for a moment ordering Flintstones vitamins, because those are really delicious. But those are for actual five-year-olds, and so I was like, it's growth.

Double the dose.

Yeah, also that is a possibility, but I am proud of myself. However, it is like a little sugary treat in the morning. So, I don't know, if you're someone who needs dessert, perhaps look into chewable candy vitamins that are covered in sugar.

Yeah, because it's health.

Health.

Health, everybody. Growth. Wait, can we go back to, okay, Saturday night, we went out for my birthday, and we went to a dive bar. But it was like a strip mall dive bar.

We frequent another dive bar.

Another strip mall.

I will not divulge, because that is our spot, and it is iconic, and it has enough people at it as it is. Had you been to this place before? I can't remember if you said that you had.

I've been wanting to go check it out, because it's in the neighborhood, so it's just another spot to go drink at.

So, me and Raleigh are the ones that found it. Yeah. Me and Raleigh were going to our friend's child's dance recital, so we thought cocktails.

Let's go get a drink before, as one does.

It was like 2 p.

I don't think it was sad and down bad. They got some nice wallpaper on the walls. They got big-ass flat screens.

I'm meaning that more from the perspective of. we went during the day. So, you see, when the light is on, when you walk in in the dive bar, you see all the crevasses, and it's sometimes dark stuff. But we were like, wait, this would be a great party space, because it had these two huge booths. So then, when we were discussing your birthday, and we're trying to figure out where to go, light bulb.

First of all, I just want to talk about just the love of dive bars in general, because it really is like a come-as-you-are. You don't really got to put the effort into any of it. You can come from a workout class. You can come from work. You can come from your couch.

No, and there's darts, and not to mention, cost-effective. You live in an expensive city like Los Angeles, you go there, you're getting a $10 martini. Yeah. I just feel like some of the most fun memories and nights that we've had in recent years have been at dive bars.

But here's the thing. When you go to a dive bar, you either have to drink, like, I mean, you're having martinis, which is kind of crazy. You do, like, shots. I don't do shots, but you're going to do shots. You're going to have a beer, a simple mixed drink.

I've done it, but it's, like, two-buck Chuck from Trader Joe's, and then they sell it for $8.

I'm not a hater on a two-buck Chuck. I don't know what this is.

It's radioactive.

I have had some of the worst hangovers from drinking wine at a dive bar. If you're going to go to a dive bar, never drink the wine. Just never drink the wine. Have a beer instead, if that's the journey you need to be on. If you cannot switch to something else, just have a beer.

Do we need to come up with the dive bar survival guide?

I'm giving my tips a little bit.

I did many shots on Saturday night at your birthday. That's the most I've drank in a while. Also, I'm on my damp January journey. Also, when we walked in, there was a happy birthday sign up and a single balloon. Was there two?

There was two happy birthdays. Neither were for me.

Neither were for you. They were someone else. Also, the yokels there are always so friendly, and the people who go there all the time. It was just good energy. That's the thing.

At a dive bar, you can always count on the regulars being just the staples there. The people watching that happens. It's also just the most diverse crowd. You're going to have the people that just turned 21.. They're hanging there.

Remember smoking sections and non-smoking sections? You'd go into a restaurant, and the whole place smelled like the smoking section? That's basically what you can expect at a dive bar.

What's the point?

You're so right.

I did not come up with that, but I heard that once.

I should have taken credit for it.

I can't, because I think that's circulated somewhere at some point. Every time I think about that, I think about the peeing section in the pool.

I personally love the smell because, as we all know, I have been on and off vaping, and I've tried supplementing that with cigarettes. I had made a TikTok about it, bragging about the way I've been off of it, and then I keep obviously relapsing. Someone was like, cigarettes in 2023?. That's bizarre. I was like, yeah, it is.

I feel like cigarettes are making a comeback in a weird way. Not that I am doing that, but I feel like I've seen more of it lately.

I have, too. I'm kind of in my Carrie Bradshaw era when she's walking through Atlantic City, and she's like, I miss that smell. One of them's like, I thought you hadn't been here before. She was like, no, I'm referring to the cigarette behind them.

I personally love that. When I walk through a casino and I smell cigarettes, it makes my stomach start to do weird little turns.

Even if I'm off nicotine, I will always smoke a cigarette in a casino. Again, I'm not saying I'm proud of it or that it's cute, but when I'm in Vegas, if you can smoke indoors, I'm doing it. I'm joining in. It's a different, more simple time, and I want to be transported back there.

Wow. The camaraderie.

That's my declaration. Absolutely. Also, at the dive bar, this is a cool thing, because our other dive bar has it, too, the jukebox.

Oh, yeah, because it's an app.

It's brilliant, because who has cash or whatever? You use a QR code, you queue up your songs. However, I did not see how many songs were already queued up, and I paid five hard-earned dollars for my four songs, and we never heard them.

Did you do the fast passing?

No, because we got there early. We got there at nine, so I assumed at some point on our journey there, we would hear them. I never got Rich. Baby Daddy by Drake. Thank God.

I don't like Drake.

Well, not everything's about you. It was your birthday, but you did play Freak on a Leash by Korn, which is one of my favorite songs.

I love that song. If Drake would have come on, I would have been like...

One Drake song never killed anybody, but we had other ones. What is the T-Pain song you're obsessed with?

Bayou Drink?

Bayou Drink.

Oh, my God, that's like my anthem.

Would that be a funeral song for you?

Yeah, play it at my funeral.

Someone got all butthurt that I said that. And I was like, I don't even know if I want a wedding, but a funeral is... Death is certain for all of us, so you know for sure. And I'm like, how do you want to be represented by your last time on earth? There's certain songs.

Okay, fine. If you don't want to be morbid about it, if you were like a WWE fighter, what would be the song that you came out to? That would... Yeah, that song.

For that environment, because it has to be like hardcore, I feel like Freak on a Leash would be a good one, or Toxic by Britney Spears. Both great songs.

Okay, yeah, no, that works as well.

What would one be for you?

T-Pain, Buy Your Drink.

It would be Buy Your Drink. What always makes me lose my mind at emo night?

Thrown by Bring Me Horizon.

That would be a good one.

King for a Day.

King for a Day did play, and we did go insane. Will you ever join me in the mosh pit? Perhaps. I think you should consider it next time.

Having a bit of a brain injury, I just want to protect the dome, you know? I don't really want to get knocked in the back of the head.

Katie and I are big fans of Emo Night. Truly, the first time I went, I was crying tears of joy in the mosh pit because it was an inner child work moment. Being emo was not cool back in the day. I was bullied for many reasons, but that was one of them. I was dressed the part.

The thing I say about emo and all that, when I came into the scene of it all, it was my senior year or whatever. I didn't really give a fuck. I don't know. I wasn't really paying attention to that or whether it was cool. It wasn't the most popular music.

I obviously did it anyway, but the point is it feels like a very safe space. You can be yourself.

Now it's very mainstream, popularized.

That's what I'm saying, but we do love it. I would love if you would join me in the mosh pit. I do it every time. Football players get CTE. I'm sure a lot of people at Emo Night get CTE.

I went to Story of the Year, and I was watching people. I was on a second level, and I was like, humans are so cute. They just hear a song, and they want to just bump into other humans. Let's throw our bodies into each other because we like this song so much. I thought it was the cutest thing that people do.

I think about that all the time. Humans are such weird little creatures. I haven't been in a while, but I like to roller skate also. I was like, who was like, let's put wheels on our shoes and go on the slickest floor imaginable. And spin.

I think it's cute. I don't know. I just was loving watching people. Then these other people were doing some hand clapping thing. They had their own little party.

This is one of my deepest shames. I've never actually been crowd surfing ever in my life. I don't say that I have, but I let people assume that. TJ, our friend who puts these events on.

I've never assumed that about you, but all right.

In conversation, people are like, I love crowd surfing. I'm like, totally.

The stage is way too high.

I know, but I feel like people were doing it. I don't know where they were doing it from, but I'd like to find the access. I saw someone last time doing it, but I don't know where they came from.

You just hoist up and do it. You don't jump.

Do you want to know one of my other deepest shames?

What?

I'm just going to admit it.

I like Nickelback. Girl, so do I.

The way that people are so hard on Nickelback, first of all, they have some bangers. Second of all, Chad Kroger, I know you feel this way, would be like a bucket list.

He can get it.

He can get it any day of the week. I'm like, why don't we talk about that more? I met him when I was 10, and I have a photo with him after his concert. At that concert, he was like to my mom, he's like, is she hitting on me? I wasn't.

I was like, so are you originally from Vancouver?

I feel like. I'd like to show him that photo someday and be like, we could take other photos, different kinds of photos, because I'm a grown up now.

He used to come around more.

I saw him at TomTom once.

I should have said something. He's friends with someone who shouldn't have their name. But he's a really nice guy.

He is a daddy.

Yeah, no, he can get it.

But I'm glad to know that you like their music. I'm sure people at home are. You know what?

I also think there's a lot of closeted. They have a lot of hits.

There's a lot of closeted Nickelback fans. We talked about this last episode collectively. Can we just admit that they're good? Can we admit people like them?

Yeah, I don't know where that came from. But also, they still tour and sell out massive venues.

Have you ever seen them live? No. I mean, I was 10.. But if they came here somewhere, I would go to their concert.

Okay, we're going to go see Nickelback.

We're going to go and then we're going to try and get backstage groupies. We're going to fight those other broads. Make our way through.

Are you going to go see Creed?

So polarizing. But I would say I am very fond of Nickelback. But Creed is like...

They don't do it for you as much.

I mean, how do you feel about them?

I like that one song, I guess. Can you take me home? Oh, no. With Arms Wide Open.

That was a staple.

I guess they got a couple songs. I don't know. But I mean, not as much. I don't hear and I'm like, I got to listen to this whole song. Or I want to hear more.

Kind of in the same vein as Chad Kroger. Because I have been... It's the 25th anniversary of The Sopranos. And we know now I'm a hyper fixation girly. So I'm incapable of watching anything new.

Yeah, I never finished it. Okay. And it was that bad? Whatever.

You need to, but you're going to be very upset, like everyone else was. I know. But Tony Soprano. Yes or no?

Probably, yeah. I think that's kind of like...

He is so.

That kind of energy I like.

He is so sexy to me. I'm like, please slap me with your gold pinky ring. Anything. You can do anything you want. I think he's so hot.

That energy I'm definitely attracted to. Because I feel like that's sort of the same energy I...

It's the BD of it all.

Yeah, I resonate with that energy.

Well, and probably when I watched it for the first time, which is in 2020, when we were on lockdown. And I just had nothing to do and no one to speak to, except for Leo at the time. I watched it and I was like... I get the appeal, but it wasn't necessarily a fiery passion I have for him. And it has grown over the years as I've watched it.

You have some of the weirdest.

LD. I know you don't feel that way about either of them, I don't think. And again, because you have to look at them as who they are. It's not like... If I saw Larry David walking on the street and he wasn't Larry David, I wouldn't like turn my head and do a double take.

I laugh. so... I know he's funny, but... He's funny, but still it doesn't do it for me. And I like funny guys like Jack Black.

Oh, he's a perfect person to add to this list. Jack Black is sexy.

Who was giving me shit about that?

School of Rock is one of the best movies ever made.

Yeah.

God, was it me maybe back in the day?

Yeah, have you changed your mind?

I don't know, I feel like.

Oh, that toy sax song?

One, two, three, motherfucker. No, he's got big beady. What's another one of yours?

Now I'm on the spot. It was like when I was trying to think of other body type examples.

Well, I think this is in the same way that someone asks you your favorite movie. I keep a list on my phone. I think I'm up to 65.. No, I have literally done that before. Like, when someone is asking me after my favorite color on a date, I'll be like, oh, let me tell you.

I don't know the psychology behind it.

At least Chad Croker and Tony, I don't think those are that weird.

I don't think so either.

I think the ladies would agree. Possibly the gentlemen.

I would say no to Bill Nye for me and no to Larry David.

Bill Nye can put whatever science experiment he wants. Girl. That's all I have to say about that.

You'll give your body to biology for him?

I will donate it to science.

I'll donate my body specifically to Bill Nye.

He just seems really cool. and it's weird because back in the day we used to watch him on his little, at least we did when they would roll in the TV at school, but I don't know. I mean, Katie, my dad doesn't love me.

You might want to unpack that a little bit.

My dad doesn't love me. I'm sure that has something to do with it.

This is some daddy issues coming up. Yeah, absolutely. You got it.

Okay, I saw this the other day and I screenshotted it because it is so disturbing to me. This is a news clipping from. I think it was Us Weekly or something. Let me read this to you. Okay.

When was this?

This was 1997.

Stop.

The pop princess is no dainty butterfly. Her va-va-voom Versace couldn't be much shorter. It's barely bigger than a t-shirt. Why doesn't the suddenly single songbird just go naked? So I'm going to have you look at this and you can react, and then I'll give you my feedback to this photo.

Oh. What? Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

Uh-huh.

I am.

Okay. The body dysmorphia in our generation is so clear. First of all, that dress, hot fire. I'd wear that right now.

First of all, she's.

She's probably. She's a size four at most in this photo.

She looks incredible.

Oh my God. Her legs look athletic and stunning, and beautiful and slim. First of all, porcupine's jail. Whoever.

Fat thighs story. Why were they writing a fat thighs story? Porcupine. There's. I mean.

Whoever wrote. this is in my basement.

There's so much wrong with that. And it hasn't ended. in this day and age. We want to say that we've progressed so much in the way we speak about women and their bodies and their. But no one.

Which was hot fire. I loved it. Great. My little punk princess. I love it.

You would have thought I rolled in shit and covered myself in feathers. The way people talked about. No, truly. I was just like. It was so.

Well, also, I love. And then you go peek at their profile and I'm like. I don't think you're walking the runway anytime soon, darling.

I was wearing like a lace dress underneath a leopard print, like silk dress. And so I was kind of like mixing patterns and mixing textures, which I like to do. I like to wear something. Maybe it doesn't make sense to other people. And like it's kind of taking a risk and things like that.

I can't remember her name, but I think Sarah something on TikTok. And she's this really outrageous, amazing creator. She has bright orange hair and it's kind of like a cool, like mullet style. She has a maximalist, which is and also different than me. She just wears a lot of color.

Well, I think some people are just like. what it comes down to, too, is the thing that I got a lot of the time is like she just doesn't know how to dress for her body. And when people start to make those kind of comments about not dressing for your body, first of all, shut the fuck up.

Shut the fuck up immediately.

Just enough with that.

The way that people are so comfortable. And also, obviously, it's just always going to be that way that women get more of that criticism. But you posted it was only a few months ago. Someone did an article and was like, heroin chic is back. And it was a reputable magazine or outlet.

No.

I live in an apartment, so I don't have an actual basement. This is a metaphorical basement, but it's very useful. OK. My friend Sarah came up with this concept. And basically, you have your metaphorical home and then you have a basement in it.

OK.

Is there anyone in your basement?

So many people. Are you joking?

Your basement is going to be crowded.

My face is full.

They're going to call the fire chief on you. It's not going to meet code.

It is so not up to code. At this point, when I see stuff like that, I just see just general outrage about my own choices. Yeah, that's all going to the basement.

That's basement.

That is such basement material.

It's basement behavior.

Basement behavior.

Punishment fits the crime. Basement behavior.

Yeah, that's all going in the basement. I like that. Yeah.

OK, we'll stick to it.

With all the spooky ghosts and rats and spiders.

I'd say the rats and spiders. The ghosts, can hang with me.

I like them.

Me and Raleigh bought an EVP reader the other day. And I love cemeteries in general. They're just beautiful. And I think they're very calming. My friend used to live right next to one.

Of course.

And we're going to do it.

Oh my god. I totally want to do that. There was this one really beautiful cemetery in Park City. It's called Glenwood. And I used to love going there.

I know. I hate when I see that.

But we were taking pictures. And the orbs that you see in the photos... I swear one time in one of the orbs, I'll have to show you a picture. I could see almost like a man in the orb.

What's your opinion on orbs? Explain to people if they don't know.

Well, I mean, what they say is that an orb represents a spirit. An entity. An entity, yeah.

But it's like you see them in photos or videos. They can sometimes be seen moving. And some people, they'll say it's dust.

Depending on how you're taking it, it's unmistakable the way they show up. And the way they're showing up in these pictures, they were massive. Like there's no reason. It's still not dust.

I was telling her when we got the EVP reader, which we were drunk, obviously.

Where do you buy that? Like Amazon?

Ghostsaurus.

Ghosthunting.

I'm like not totally sure she did it. So me and my friend Courtney went to there's... I think it's called Kuboto Gardens. It's in Seattle. It's an iconic, well-known cemetery.

Typical behavior.

Typical. So we had a digital camera. And when we shot it, I will never forget for the rest of my life. In the photo, you can't even see like inches in front of you because there's so many orbs. But when we shot it, the flash, you could see them.

Yeah, we've definitely had like paranormal experience and ghost experience. But then we've had the not kind of paranormal ghost experiences too.

Which one's scarier?

They're both scary.

I'd say the human ones are. Yeah, that's scarier for me.

Which ones haunt you more? The ghosts of the human or the paranormal?

No, the people, because at least my ghosts are consistent. My actual ghosts. One has been with me since I was a child. At least I see him and I can't even get a text back sometimes.

Because you know what they say about ghosts. when they come in? At least, they can't hurt you. Yeah. They can't touch you.

They can't touch you. They can't hurt me.

These kind of ghosts.

Excruciating.

They can hurt you. Yeah. And they will. And they do. We're talking about ghosting if you haven't picked up on it.

There's different categories of ghosting as well. I hate the friendly ghost. I hate the Casper.

Okay, let's talk about the friendly ghost.

The friendly ghost is someone who you have been seeing for any amount of time, possibly hooked up with, possibly haven't, who you think you have future plans with or make them, and then they just stop talking to you. They typically ghost. And then, all of a sudden, they're in your DMs parting your stories. Yeah. They're still there.

Yeah.

They need to pass over to the other side.

They're like, we're still cool. I still like you as a person. I just don't want to talk to you like that anymore. We're just done with that part of this thing. They don't block you.

I soft block those people with a quickness that would shock you. Soft block, for anyone that doesn't know, is when you go to someone's page, you block them and then unblock them. Because I'm not petty enough or flatter myself enough to actually block someone. But when you soft block, it forces you both to unfollow. And it's not even just that.

Those are the most haunting type of ghosts. It's like, why are you bugging me still? You don't think I noticed that you just stopped responding to my texts? But here you are, liking all my stories. And you want to come into my DMs and float me a meme?

Which, when they send you a meme, is so shocking. You're like, I haven't heard from you in 84 years. Why are you sending me a meme? that's usually also not even that funny?

Well, I mean, thanks. But you should have just altogether stopped bugging me if you had no intention of following through on any of this.

The thing is, I think that friendly ghosts are professionals. That's why I think they do it. Because they are haunting. They have busy nights. They're running from cemetery to cemetery.

Yikes.

And all those people are feeling that way.

You think so? Or do you think they truly just don't know how to leave a person alone?

Ghosting in general, when someone kind of comes back in your life in a soft way, is that they can't leave you alone because they want to still know they have access to you. There's so much power in silence. There's so much power in shutting people out and not acknowledging that behavior by engaging with it. Like, I will leave you unread. If you ghost me and I'm allowing you to still follow me, bye.

I don't know. I think the ones that will ghost fully, completely, and then pop back around just a couple months later as if nothing happened, those are more frightening. The zombies. Zombies? The come back to life.

I'm going to submit a new category.

What's that?

I don't feel like I've ever heard this before. The gaslighting ghost. I've had two back-to-back.

Is this where they're trying to convince you that they didn't ghost?

Yes. The gaslighting ghost. Oh, my God. Because it's basically the same thing, so I'll tell you an example of one. But I had someone I was seeing for a few weeks.

No, it's called boundaries, my dude. Correct. It's called boundaries. Correct.

Then I was like, you literally ghosted me and went to another continent. Weird flex, but okay. And he was like, I didn't ghost you. The phone works both ways. And I was like, yeah, but you're always very communicative.

Maybe to a certain degree. It sounds a bit familiar. My favorite ghost story recently has been a guy that I was talking to for really quite some time. And again, the talking phase is so exhausting. Because it's just like, what am I doing?

Wait, does this person live in a very sunny place that isn't California? Yeah. Okay, wait, I remember this one. So didn't he send you a meme or something? Or, like heart, a story on Instagram?

Well, yeah. I mean, it starts like kind of sending me some memes. Starts like popping around, popping around. And I oblige. I'm never going to be like, tell someone to go fuck themselves.

There's not three wishes here. You don't need to wish. You could have just called me. Yeah. It's that easy.

Well, he did try. in the middle of the night. I was asleep. I was like the next day. Sorry, I was asleep.

Of course it was.

So like, again, like, I'm just like, um, just popping back up. Like, well, of course, because he's just like, doesn't want to have the conversation. Doesn't want to like have to talk about shit that he did wrong. So it's like, he's just going to stay dead now. Well, is he back to being dead?

Is he a thespian? Is he the ghost of William Shakespeare? Because that's, that's theater. That's all. It's all theatrics.

No.

I go straight back. I'm so stubborn. If you fall off or I don't hear from you, you are dead to me.

Well, I mean, at this point, I think for like a while, especially last year, I was just trying to kind of figure out like, what do I really want? Do I really want to end up in a relationship? Am I just trying to like have fun right now? And now that I've like, really kind of figured that out, I do not have any time or patience for that. I'm not here to be a convenience to anyone.

Inconsistency is a form of consistency. So, if someone is inconsistent and it happens all the time, they are being consistent. They're being consistently inconsistent and I don't have any time for that.

But I'm saying once you, when you've gone from being consistent in terms of like cadence and communication and then it flips, okay, well, now we've changed gears. So, like, goodbye. It's loud.

That quiet is really loud and that's also when gaslighting happens a lot of the time, because they'll be like, what are you talking about? Nothing's changed. And it's like, yeah, it has. It obviously has, and you're trying to say something with that.

100%.

Inaction speaks louder than words.

Well, right. And also, I think your effort is a reflection of your interest, and I'm not here to put any more energy into somebody that clearly has no interest in me.

No, especially where, and I know we've talked about this, but where I am in my life personally, I'm in a very different place than I've ever been from a dating perspective, in terms of not only am I the happiest I've ever been, I'm the most secure I've ever been. And I used to base because I had so many failed relationships, but I didn't realize that that was my responsibility based on. I didn't know my attachment style. I didn't understand why I was picking the same type of person who basically hated me and it was never going to work. So then, when I got rejected because I ended up being needy, because they pulled away, I was bewildered and was like, okay, something's basically a self-fulfilling prophecy, right?

Well, yeah, I don't think that should be our purpose, or make us feel like that has to be our purpose. I think that is something that has come from society, and patriarchy, perhaps, is that, like women are meant to be, these maternal figures. You know, our purpose is to find a husband, and then, you know, reproduce. And that is like our life's purpose. And I think that is bullshit.

And people are so threatened by that. I saw a guy had some gal on her podcast and she said, I don't want kids. Child free by choice is very much a thing right now. And he was like, well, that's selfish. And she's like, that's fine.

Once you take it off the table and take the pressure off of yourself and just look at your life and being able to design it in a way that you can just truly be in love with life and whatever comes your way and whatever you can design it to be, I think it's just kind of like a beautiful thing. Not needing someone outside of yourself to be happy, not needing anything outside of yourself to be happy, I think, is a wonderful thing. Just like being able to choose everything that you want in your life.

Do you feel like it took you longer than it should have to get there?

I think it took me the exact time I needed to to get here. Everyone's like, oh, you wasted so much time. No, I think it needed to happen when it happened. I think, of course, it would have been nice if I could have figured it out sooner, sure. But I think the timing is always important.

I agree. I think that's a good perspective. I think that, more so, I feel like when I meet someone who's 25, who's stressing out about these kinds of things, I'm like, darling, learn from...

Sweet summer child.

Barbie, take my hand. I'm like, let's go for a walk. Let me help you. And it also makes dating easier. Because I used...

Do I like them?

I'm seeing if I like you. If I want to spend any time with you, and I don't care about a timeline, I only... If something is serving me and adding serious value to my life, is it welcome?

Yeah, because at this point, the only person that they're competing with is myself. Am I going to disrupt my peace for you? You got to be someone special in order for me to want to add you into my life and make you a part of what I've got going on.

I didn't come this far, to come this far and not be happy. It's just, I've waited a long time. And, like you said, it did happen, probably when it was supposed to. And also, 33 is, and maybe some people would beg to differ, is still very young. And I'm like, I feel more solid than I ever have.

Well, I think it's still like a bit of an antiquated way of thinking of like, you know, you're supposed to be married by a certain age, especially a young age in your 20s. Because for a long, long time, people didn't live very long. So people would get married at a young age because they didn't live past, like, I don't know, like 60 was old. You know, that was a long time. Like, that's how long this way of thinking has been.

To save forever is, I don't know, I just think that. And mind you, a lot of people, I want to emphasize, there are a lot of people it works out for and live that life. And that's great.

Not to be pessimistic about it, but that is more rare than anything. It is. If you meet somebody in your 20s and you stay married to them for your life, like you are, in a very small percentage.

Yeah, it is. And actually, it's weird that you just brought up lifespan, because recently a politician was talking and was basically saying, if you're in your 20s right now, they're going to raise the retirement age, or they would like to, to 70.. And because the life expectancy will be 77.. I'm so grateful for our generation. Truly, I think it kind of was happening in Gen X, very much millennial, very, very much.

I don't view my relationship with Tom or Mary as a failed anything. I think being with anyone for decades plus is a win. That's a long time spent with a person. And, you know, you just become different people and you grow apart. And I think being able to call it what it is and end it like that is acknowledging something, you know, bigger than what you, you know.

I just don't think that's talked about enough. And it's also like when people, some people, I think have a hard time calling it because, you know, it's looked at in a certain way. Like admitting you had made a mistake or something. where it's like, I think that there's actually a lot of courage in that. And that can be the successful outcome.

Well, because it was so taboo. Divorce was just like really, really frowned upon for a long time. So I think a lot of people start that way of thinking, whether it's family or whether it's religion or anything like that. So I think there's a kind of like that process of thinking. But I think with any kind of, whether it's a job, whether it's career or anything like that, like nothing you can do forever.

Yeah, this is the last time I'll talk about Sex and the City today. I can't promise other episodes. But the very ending of Sex and the City always makes me cry because it's like literally her last line. It's something along the lines of, and the most important, challenging and exciting relationship you have is the one you have with yourself. And I just feel like a lot of people are waking up to that.

Well, and that's why I ended mine because I chose myself, because I was like, I could stay in this and not be happy. Or I could leave it and choose myself and choose happiness. And whether that's being alone, but being happy and choosing things that are going to make me happy and filling my life with things that make me happy. Whether that ends up being another person or not. But this does not make me happy.

I say this all the time, and people think it's morbid. I mean this in a positive. We are currently on a rock. It's floating through space. It's on fire.

I agree. Should we get into WWDD? Yeah. Let's do it.

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Okay, last year I ended a 22-year relationship with divorce. It was like the two Toms combined into one. I felt a sense of grief, but also accomplishment in the past year. Although I still feel far from being able to start dating, I know the time will come and it terrifies me, since I've only been intimate with one person, my ex-husband. How do I even start?

You start at the pleasure chest.

I mean, 22 years is a really long time in one person. I mean, I was with Tom for 12 years and that felt like a really long time. So I can't imagine tacking on another 10 years to that. I think you just got to dive into it. Be a little fearless.

I would say, I mean, 22 years, I've been with someone for like 22 minutes max. But first of all, try and go easy on yourself, because it is going to be scary. It is going to be intimidating, especially sleeping. When you've only slept with one person and been doing that for 22 years, that is going to be something to get used to. But something tells me when you get into the swing of things, you'll get used to it quite quickly.

100%. I think the best way to take the pressure off yourself is probably to start...

Just doing it.

I don't know.

I would say a one-night stand wouldn't hurt you. Wouldn't hurt you at all. Yeah.

If you think like, well, regardless of how this goes, I don't have to see this person again. Unless you want to. But there's no pressure there. You can think of it, as you can be whoever you want to be.

Katie's like, put a wig on. Get out there.

I mean, not like that, but I'm just saying you don't have to worry about how you feel about them. If they like you, if they're what they think about you, you get to just kind of be selfish about it and only think about yourself.

You really just have to know that most people are nervous. I date all the time, but I still get nervous before first date. The best you can hope for coming out of a first date is that it isn't uncomfortable. But other than that, you just have to go into it and be as fearless as you can and go easy on yourself. That is crazy.

Yeah. And I think, you know, dating will come eventually.

But if you want to just and hopefully so will you.

But, yeah, I mean, I think, just start having a little bit of fun, without any kind of like pressure or worrying about what comes next. And then dating will, I think, come a little bit more. naturally. Once you get used to the idea of just kind of like being with somebody, being comfortable with somebody, you know, just going out and meeting them, having it be super casual, then worry about dating and feelings and all that. Yeah.

Also, we don't know this person's history, but I said the pleasure chest. Like you, I hope that you know yourself sexually. If you realize you're running to explore that with other people, if that hasn't been taken care of, please get to know yourself.

That too. Yeah.

My problem is this. In August of 2023, my dad suddenly and unexpectedly passed. We were extremely close and it has completely altered every aspect of my life. I am in my mid 20s and have been single for two years after the end of a serious relationship, mainly because I've been too busy to date while in law school. Now that I'm graduating, I want to get back out there and start dating again.

You would know.

I have. Yeah, my dead mom. I definitely would know. I have. Yeah, I have a lot to say on that.

I don't think anyone's going to question if you just say, like, I'd rather save that conversation for later. Yeah. It's a bit of a longer, more personal story.

Yeah. People can take the hint if you're being short about something.

Yeah. When you don't know somebody, no one's going to be like, what's the deal? Like, if people are like, okay, it's probably a more personal story. People are like, I get it. Yeah.

First of all, the guilt's got to go. Oh, God, yeah. That you need to separate yourself from. You need to be really proactive about telling yourself there is no guilt in ending.

I think you replace that with feeling right. Yeah. You'll feel, like, proud of yourself for doing that, because most people don't actually do that. They just kind of will accept the mistreatment.

Yeah, there's no guilt in doing that, and I think the loneliness, that's to be expected, but it will pass. So it's more so just knowing that you're opening your life up for other people to come in it, and that is a better place to be. And we talked about this before in romantic relationships, but the same is said for platonic relationships. If you have platonic relationships that make you feel lonely, it's better to just be alone and give yourself time to learn more about yourself, which will attract the right kind of people. So the guilt's got to go, but good for you, for ending the negative relationships.

Yeah, and I think, yeah, if you can, once you start learning more about yourself and figure out the types of relationships, the people that you want in your life, be that person yourself, and you're going to attract that kind of energy and those people into your life quicker than you think.

Right. Go to a dive bar. also. Go to a dive bar. All the best people there.

Yeah, exactly.

I'm 41, turning 42 at the end of this month. I am very unhappy in my career. It stresses me out. It makes me very anxious. I've decided to take real estate classes and get my real estate license.

No. I think you should constantly reinvent yourself, even if that means trying out a new job, a new career. If there's something you've always been curious about and wanting to do, I think you should do it many times in life. I think it is another antiquated sort of idea that this sort of linear life that you have to live where you graduate high school, then you go to college, you get a degree, you use that degree, then you get a job, and then you work that job for the rest of your life. If that's what you want to do and that's the path that you're on and it works for you, then great, but I think if you're not happy doing something and you want to switch gears, you should 100% do it.

Sometimes delulu is the salulu.

It is the salulu.

Also, I was going to say the imposter syndrome, that's all women, and I'm glad you're working on it, but keep working on that, because that is you're lying to yourself. That's your shadow work you need to do. That's not real, so keep working on that. Also, I was raised in a household that it was very much impressed upon me to never rely on anyone, and especially men, so I think that doesn't have to go anywhere. It sounds like you're in a healthy relationship, which is amazing, but keep working on your career.

Exactly. Love.

See you in New York, set me up with someone.

Okay, suggestions on how to cope with being a B-list friend. I've always been told that I'm smart, funny, and a good person to be around, but I've never really felt like I've made any A-list friends. I get invited to last-minute events, get comments like, we had a great girls weekend planned, and you should have been there. But I also get messages late at night and emergency calls from people who need someone to listen and help. Is it possible to accept that?

I guess this is our spooky episode because I have two words for this person. Energy vampires.

Yep.

The thing is, if you are the friend that people are always calling upon and it's not reciprocated, people are taking advantage of you. It's like that saying, it's something like, stop texting first or reaching out first and see how many dead plants you're watering.

Yeah, exactly.

And this is so sad. in general. You're not a B-list friend. Again, that's your shadow work. You're lying to yourself.

Yeah, I mean, I think, okay, so when we get in a certain age, I think people definitely have friends that fill certain needs. You know, like I have friends that I will absolutely call that. I know I can rely on. that will give me the best advice. I can rely on an emergency in times of needs and stuff like that.