BONUS: How the FBI Decides When to Arrest

Hi, Producer Ben Kebrick here. For this second bonus episode of Ransom, we wanted to share excerpts of an interview I did with FBI agent and lawyer Cindy Rosenthal. She explained really well how the FBI decides when to arrest a suspect. She also shared a lot of interesting stuff about other accused in kidnappings and what it's like to be a lawyer for the FBI.

Back in 95, I was a special agent with the Federal Bureau of Investigation. My name is Cynthia Rosenthal. I go by Cindy. And I think during the time of this case, I was acting as the chief division counsel for the FBI office in Houston, Texas.

And so what does that mean, chief division counsel?

Most of the lawyers that work for the FBI back at FBI headquarters or other places are not agents. Each FBI field office has one agent who is also a lawyer, who acts as the chief division counsel to give legal advice to the agents and kind of act as a liaison between Department of Justice, the U.S. Attorney's Office with search warrants and Title III warrants and things like that. A lot of times my job was mediating between the U.S. Attorney's Office and the agents too, because we might think that we can handle something more aggressively and they wanted to be more reserved about the way we handled the investigation.

And so how did your training go? Like, did you go to law school first and then join the FBI or?

Yes. I got out of law school and I was from California and I thought, man, I'm not sure I want to do this for my career. And one of my neighbors said, hey, the FBI hires agents. And I went, oh, that sounds like fun. So I called up the FBI and they say, well, we hire lawyers who have law degrees, but you're not going to be a lawyer.

I guess that must be a very, very rare path for people that have a JD. or is it more common than I think?

I think it's more common than you think. There was a rumor for a while that the FBI only hired lawyers and accountants, and it's not true. They have people from all kinds of backgrounds, but they do look for people with advanced degrees.

Yeah.

So when did you first hear about the McKay Everett kidnapping?

I don't exactly remember when, but I know that I'm sure I probably heard about it from Beth Martin, who ran the kidnapping squad in Houston and marshaled all the forces.

So they have a specific kidnapping squad?

They divide the office up into different squads, and we handle certain violations. And the kidnapping squad generally handles all general crimes, which are kidnappings, extortions, bank robberies, and things like that. They call them reactive crimes, whereas a white collar squad, you're not reacting to a crime. You're kind of working towards proving it, but on the reactive squad, it's kind of like, boom, you got to go.

And kind of what, you know, is this a typical kidnapping case, or how did this compare to what they might normally cover?

You know, when I first got to Houston, there were three or four kidnappings right off the bat, and they kind of were pretty common. They're not so common now, but we were used to handling them. And we had certain agents who had done them quite a bit. And having McKay just kind of leave the house like that was just odd. It was just kind of scary and odd.

Can you explain that a little bit more? What part of it was odd?

There was no forced entry. There was no indication that he was in trouble. I mean, he was 13,. I think he was.

I think 12.

12, a pretty mature age, you know. So right from the beginning, I think people were beginning to think that he knew the person that came and took him. Yeah.

And just to follow up on the, you know, you were saying there were a number of kidnapping cases. I guess I was talking to a sheriff and he was saying something like, you know, they would get calls every weekend for kind of a kidnapping, but it would usually be like a divorce custody thing or a kid that just ran away and then comes back or something like that. Those cases you were talking about, were those like similar, like kidnappings with ransom kind of cases?

Yes, they were. And I know exactly what the sheriff's deputy is talking about. There's a lot of calls like that. That's why a lot of, especially when you watch TV, they always say the FBI won't get involved for 24, 48 hours, you know, that kind of depends. But there's got to be some kind of evidence that there is something going on.

Yeah. I like think of that as being, I don't know, like a crime from like the thirties or something like that.

I know.

I don't think of that as being kind of like a modern crime.

I think the last spate of kidnappings that we had during my FBI career were, we called them drug kidnappings. Usually people selling drugs or working in the drug cartel some way, kidnapping someone to get money for the drugs. And those, we handled them the same way, but they weren't, they weren't as shocking, I guess, as like McKay or having a baby kidnapped or something.

So those earlier kidnappings that you had mentioned when you started working, how did those ones end?

There were two babies and a young man, and they were, we successfully found them either by paying a ransom or getting them at the ransom drop.

So, based on your previous experience, you were holding out hope that McKay would be found alive.

Yes. Especially after we knew it was Uncle Hilty, because we would, we would say, well, he wouldn't kill him. You know, they have a close relationship. He knows this child. He wouldn't kill him, but you never know.

Okay. So you're saying you think you probably heard about McKay's kidnapping some evening. You know what, I guess, what was like the first step from your perspective? What do you go do first?

Well, I remember my job is to sit back and answer questions, and Beth and the squad were usually pretty good about calling on me when something like that happens. So I'm, I'm guessing that I went into the office and just kind of waited for them to know that they need some help.

Are there already, like legal issues that you're thinking about? that like, probably will come up or might come up?

Probable cause for search warrants, probable cause for arrest. Are there going to be any exigent circumstances surrounding it? Is it going to be one of those things where he's going to be driving down the road and we're going to have to stop him right now? And can we do that? And can we pull him over and arrest him, making sure the boy is safe?

Do you, do you remember just kind of like when you heard about this guy, Hilton Crawford, and kind of like your reaction to, kind of learning the details about the case?

I was, I was shocked. I think I mentioned before that we anticipated that it was someone who knew him just because of the, how easy McKay went with him. And once we heard, that kind of solidified what we thought, but it was just so hard to believe that someone who, who was loved by that family would do such a horrible thing. It was just, it was really shocking. What I remember the most about this case is how much it affected his parents and especially his mother, and how distraught she was, just inconsolable.

You've referred to him a couple of times as, as Uncle Hilty. Um, is that kind of how he, like the name that you think of when you, when you think of him?

Yes. That's how he was referred to in our, in the FBI office was Uncle Hilty. It just kind of told you everything you needed to know that he was a friend of the family. And that's how McKay knew him was Uncle Hilty.

Dude, he was like an ex law enforcement person. He'd worked for the police and the sheriff in Beaumont, Texas. Um, did, did that also bother people that he'd been in law enforcement?

Yes. Everybody was really shocked to hear that, thinking that he'd lost his moral compass.

After a brief break, we'll be back with FBI lawyer, Cindy Rosenthal, who explains how the FBI decides when to arrest a suspect.

As a ransom listener, you're well aware that the world can be a very dangerous and unpredictable place. I know it well from years of working as a reporter and covering crimes and disasters everywhere. That's why you need SimpliSafe. SimpliSafe was named best home security system 2024 by the US News and World Report. And in fact, Newsweek ranked it the best customer service as well.

I think one of the things that's been interesting to me about this case is, you know, there's this period where, you know, Hilton Crawford, he's the main suspect. You know, they're pretty sure he did it, but, you know, they feel like they can't arrest him quite yet. But then this kid is also missing. I'm curious kind of how, how that decision gets made. How do you decide?

It's it's kind of two different situations there, because probable cause to arrest him is more probable than not that he committed the crime. And finding the boy is a completely separate thing. So you want to try to talk to him as much as you can. The boy's life is first and foremost what we're worried about. And the probable cause to arrest is just going to come with everything that leads up to it, before or after that.

Yeah. So I think from my naive perspective, it's like, well, you think this guy did it and the kid's still out there. So, just like arrest him now and like, try, to, you know, start putting the pressure on him to to give this kid up. Curious, if you can kind of like explain that thought process.

OK, you know, we can talk to him as much as we want without arresting him. Custody plus interrogation means arrest. So if we're talking to him in his home, or if he voluntarily comes in to talk to us, we can talk to him as long as we want about where the boy is without placing him under arrest. It's once he knows that he's no longer free to leave when he wants to, then he's under arrest and we have to have probable cause at that point. So it's kind of a fine line.

And is there something to where, kind of like, once you arrest him, you read him the Miranda rights and he might just get a lawyer and stop talking. So in some ways it's easier to get him to talk before you arrest him.

It all just depends on the circumstances of the case.

So at that point where he's the main suspect, but he hasn't been arrested yet, I mean, would he probably be surveilled around the clock?

I'm sure. I'm sure. Because he could also lead us to the boy at that point.

Yeah. Are there any other kind of memories that have popped up as we've been talking?

about this? I think it was. it was one of those things where, I'm sure, parents in the community were locking up their kids and doing background investigations on everybody. they knew that were coming to the house afterwards. It really kind of had a chilling effect on everyone.

Did you have kids at that time?

Yes. Babies.

Did it affect kind of the way you raised your kids at all?

I'm not sure. I think just in general, my job did, you know. So this case was one of many that might have affected that. Sometimes I think some of my friends who had nothing to do with law enforcement were much more worried about it than I was. But, you know, the FBI and the Academy, they teach you to be cognizant of your surroundings and to vary your routes to and from work and to just be careful of those things.

That's like the dinner table conversation and stuff like that.

Yeah, exactly.

So one of the things I struggle with with this story is kind of like, what is the takeaway message? And curious if there is anything that you've kind of taken away from it.

You know, it's kind of just one of these things that you hate to say it, but sometimes stuff just happens, and stuff happens to good people. And it's just a confluence of events that becomes the right thing, because any murder case, any of these kidnapping cases are just like, wow, you know, they're not the norm. They're rare. You just can't stop living your life because of them.

Yeah. Well, anyway, yeah, it's been. it's been great talking to you. Thanks so much. Yeah.

And if you need anything else, let me know. I told you, I get in my car and I turn on a podcast, and true crime is my jam.

So.

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