Flightless Bird: True Crime

I'm, David Farrier, in New Zealand, accidentally marooned in America, and I want to figure out what makes this country tick. Now, since I've been here, something quite weird's happened, and I'm not quite sure why. I've become much more aware of crime.

Breaking news from Chinatown, the LAPD is investigating a shooting that happened outside the Melody Lounge on North Hill Street.

Now I'm not more aware of crime because I'm witnessing crime first hand, it's more because I'm being told about crime. I'm not sure when it started, maybe when I started following local news stations on Instagram, or maybe it was when I installed Citizen on my phone, this app which blasts me with crime news updates in my neighbourhood. Some updates are useful, other ones, I'm not so sure, an axe-wielding man a mile away, someone spotted naked and screaming a few streets over. This all led me to think about something. America has really made its own, true crime.

Are you kidding me?

The disappearance of Teresa Halbach remains a mystery.

Mr. Avery's blood is found inside of Teresa Halbach's vehicle.

Serial's been downloaded about 350 million times, a podcasting world record, and since Making a Murderer came out nearly a decade ago, Netflix has invested heavily in the genre. In this episode, I'm going to share the 10 true crime shows that have captivated my own brain, and also talk to one of the real-life characters from a popular true crime podcast to see what they make of this sometimes ethically murky type of storytelling. So get ready to decide if it's entertainment, documentary, or both, because this is the true crime episode.

Alright,

I'm excited for this.

Do you watch and consume true crime stuff? What's your relationship with it?

Yeah, Serial is my favorite podcast of all time. It was a big hit. It was such good storytelling.

It's almost difficult to remember a time before Serial. I know. Because it changed the kinds of things that people made in every genre, whether it's podcast or documentary.

I mean, there's always been docs and stuff, true crime docs, but I do feel like Serial catapulted it into a new level that rebirthed the genre into like a major, major boom.

There's these amazing books like In Cold Blood and How to Skelter. And, you know, so true crime was always a thing, but I feel Serial made it hit the mainstream. It did. I guess it's like, I feel like Netflix helped make documentaries a new thing, kind of reinvented it. And I feel like Serial kind of changed the way people viewed how crime could be told specifically.

Yeah.

Like it nailed that type of storytelling.

It really did. But I love so many of the docs, like the Jinx. Oh, yes. I love the Jinx.

Yeah. That's on my list later.

Oh, it is? I know. I kind of want to guess your list.

Yeah. There'll definitely be some crossover between what we like, but I'm also curious to hear later on, like what stuff has inspired you. And I can guarantee that people listening to this will be screaming as they listen, because I'll be like, they didn't talk about that thing. And I think that's the joy of it, because there's so much stuff out there. There's true crime that I haven't even gone near, because it's just too vast and too huge.

Did you deep dive into the gender element of it?

No, we can talk about it. Okay. I am about to interview someone who is a female who was in a true crime podcast. I went along to a true crime podcast meet. And so I can talk a little bit to that.

It is. I know.

Yeah. When we were shooting Dark Tourist, we went on a Jeffrey Dahmer tour and it was pretty much all female. And that really, yeah, that really surprised me, because I knew that females leaned more into that type of storytelling, but to turn up to a tour of Jeffrey Dahmer, I was the only guy there. And I just thought that was really interesting.

I think, I mean, do you have a theory on it?

To be honest, no, I'm curious for your take, because I haven't thought about it that much. And even in Dark Tourist, we didn't go that deep into what the appeal is with women. Look, off my head, my theory, women are the ones in society who have to watch out for shit the most. They're hyper aware of the stuff. They're curious about what the tells are.

Exactly. And we're more susceptible. I mean, Liz and I have had this debate on Synced. I just stand by that. It's the reality of the world.

You're right. It's like we talked a bit about this in the Halloween episode, where we went to the haunted house, where a haunted house is a way of feeling this stuff and exploring those emotions. In a safe way. In a safe way. And I also think maybe there's something in it as well, and I might be off here, but I feel like if you're a female, just statistically, and you have something bad happen, you're going to be ignored generally.

Sarah Koenig.

Yeah, who's this person? One of the most famous podcasters of all time.

God, she's good.

Yeah. I think the New York Times, I think, bought Serial. So it's all sitting over.

Yeah, it's there. Yeah.

What do you think, and we can get into this a bit more later, but do you have any thoughts on the commodification of crime? Because that's the other side. It's like.

Dirty side.

We're sitting on our couch. I'm a guy. I'm eating popcorn. It's like, oh, I love popcorn. It's like, what am I watching tonight?

I know it's complex, especially because these are real people and often they're getting exploited in some way. It's hard to feel bad for the people who've committed the murders. I have a hard time having compassion there for their exploitation. But even the victims can get exploited in here.

Completely. Yeah, that's the tricky level, because it's about people being exploited. And then at times I think you have people being exploited again when they're brought into this documentary world. I always think of Tiger King, which was that, in my opinion, a pretty bad doc. It was just.

You didn't like it.

I devoured it.

Yeah, it was tasty.

It was tasty. I don't think it did a lot of good for the world. It was kind of like.

Interesting, tell me.

My take on that, I watch it in New Zealand. It was during our little lockdown, as many of us were going through with COVID. And it just felt like here is a little window into a freak show. Let's look at these people that are struggling and having a terrible time and are kind of like a bit silly, and let's laugh. That's sort of what it felt like to me.

Wow, David, I'm shocked right now that that's your take, because I tend to place you in a category.

Of looking at the freaks.

And enjoying it. Yeah. And part of it's anthropological for you, I think. Totally. I think you find human behavior very interesting.

Be like.

Really like that. On board.

It's a balance. I guess I dabble in true crime, right? I made Tickles, which was a true crime, where no one died. But same sort of genre. Yeah.

You wrote a newsletter recently. that was true, crimey.

Oh, yeah. On Webber, I'm about my friend whose flatmate killed a neighbor. Yeah. So that is in the true crime genre, right? And I love that stuff.

Well, no, I think it does.

I would just argue that Tiger King didn't really have a lot to say. To the point where I remember the final episode of Tiger King. They, almost in the last five minutes, sort of hemmed in this really heavy handed voice over talking about the exploitation of animals, as if to say, OK, so what have we learned?

Oh, right. Oh, I could see that.

Keeping tight. It's probably bad keeping these animals. We shouldn't do this. Let's look at this as an example. Well, you're right.

I definitely don't think the story was about animals. It was about human behavior and human manipulation. And that I find interesting. And it's happening all around us. We're getting manipulated all the time.

Completely. And watching it play out, you do learn about how we humans tick. The thing I was originally thinking about with Tiger King as an example of the ethical implications of true crime, we watch Tiger King. We enjoy it.

We judge people.

We come away with our conclusions about whether you should keep tigers in captivity and how much you should do meth. And then, if you look at the people in that documentary, they were people who had no profile. They were just in their world. They're suddenly in the biggest hit TV show. And I was particularly interested in one of the characters who was the campaign manager for Joe Exotic when he had his little political run.

Oh, no.

It's interesting when you get these people, you know, the pitch would be sit down and be in this documentary, maybe talk about this stuff. And like, OK, overnight on Netflix, you're then a worldwide icon. And what that can do to some people, there's no safety net.

No, absolutely not.

They're just in it, and then they have to cope with it. And I think that can be really problematic.

I didn't know that. I haven't really followed any of those people since.

But I don't think anyone did, except my weird fascination.

But they kind of became tigers in captivity. in some bizarre way. They became zoo animals.

A hundred percent. And they got attention. And when you go from, you know, you're in a documentary where something hideous has happened or something stressful. And then the next minute you've got Cameo emailing being like, hey, come on our celeb site. It's just a really warping, interesting thing.

Well, do you struggle with this as a documentarian?

Yeah, at times, because it's always the balance of are you coming to it with? objectivity comes into it. How objective are you? My last true crime, doc, Mr. Organ, was not objective at all.

Okay, let's hear it.

Before I rabbit on too much to Monica and Rob about the things I recommend in the true crime space, I wanted to meet someone who's found themselves smack bang in the middle of the true crime genre. I had a lot of ideas on who I could talk to for this. People like Erin Lee Carr, who makes a lot of true crime documentaries. Erin's appeared on Armchair Expert a few times now, and those episodes are a really good listen. But the more I thought about it, one person kept coming to mind.

You have beautiful dogs here, by the way. Who is this?

This is Dixon.

I'm meeting Tara Newell at a bar in the valley in Los Angeles. Dixon is her dog, a miniature Australian shepherd, who's currently straining on his collar trying to sniff the buttholes of some other dogs that are here.

Dixon right now has seen some other dogs going into a very dog-friendly bar. And Dixon, like any dog, gets excited when he sees other dogs.

Yes, no, he likes to let them know that he's here and also protect me.

That protect me. line might sound like a throwaway, but to Tara, it's not. Back in 2016,, she was attacked by a con man called John Meehan. He was trying to abduct her on the rooftop parking lot of her apartment building. She managed to get away, thanks in part to her dog at the time, Cash, who put up his own fight, barking and biting at John's ankles while he attacked her with a knife.

What was the most unexpected aspect of having your story told?

How many people it got across to. I wasn't aware that it was going to be so big. I honestly was told that The Walking Dead may hit me up, and that's really what I was hoping for. And there was a few people that reached out from that, but not the production. So I was thankful for those reach-outs.

Tara knows about being a celebrity, or, in her words, a pseudo-celebrity, because Dirty John made her one. Later today at this bar, she's taking part in a true crime meet-up, where fans will come and meet their hero.

How do you find meeting people that know your story really intimately and know your work? What is that like? Because fans bring a certain energy to things, and I'm curious what that relationship has been like for you.

It's really crazy to meet so many people out there that have listened and absorbed the story. And it's really great because my story is so extreme, where theirs may not be as extreme, but they're definitely able to relate to me. on the aspect of the toxic relationship and domestic violence aspect. I think that it's really important to know that these people are in plain sight. And they're someone that can con anyone.

She's bringing up New Zealand because that's where we'd first met, back in 2018.

Even since your story, there's just so much of it. It's this genre, half of Netflix is true crime. Can you tell me a little bit about what the scene is like at the moment, here in 2024?.

It's a very convoluted scene right now, because there's so much content out there. I think right now is the time where we're really switching from the perpetrators becoming the forefront of the stories, from now, it being survivors. You see that with Voices for Justice, with Sarah Turney. You see that with media pressure, with Julie Marie talking about her sister, Maura Marie. It's really the time to kind of switch.

She's right. There is a shift in true crime where writers, directors, and producers are perhaps realizing that victims should take more of the center stage in these stories. Instead of glorifying the killers, the lens is turned towards those that were affected. There's a great example of this in a recent HBO true crime doc series, Last Call, when a serial killer stalked queer New York.

It's in all of us.

That fear of being hurt because we're queer.

It's a move away from what we saw in the likes of the recent Dahmer documentary and narrative series, where the killer was the main focus. That show has become a big part of the debate over the future of true crime, especially when it came to how family members of Dahmer's victims were portrayed.

With the Dahmer series, we had Rita Isabel on the Survivor Squad, my current podcast, and she talks about how she just saw one day on Netflix that her story was coming out, and they used her exact footage from the court, from her wanting to try to reach over and try to kill Dahmer on the stand. Side by side, it looks exactly the same, but this person doesn't get compensated for their story. This person doesn't get consulted.

Compensation and payment is a whole other debate. There's this line of thinking that no one being interviewed in a true crime podcast or documentary should be paid for it, that it would create bias. It could mean people on camera are just saying certain things because of the money. But is this just another case of the victim being done over, yet again? The creators of the series, whether they're works of journalism or slightly fictionalized retellings, walking away with millions while the victims are just left with the trauma.

Ryan Murphy, I believe he was a $30 million deal, or something for five years, and not to mention residuals from those projects as well. So it's really hard when that person is saying, and I've gone to places like this too, but self-harm and wanting to not be here because your story's still out there, you have this trauma you don't know how to deal with, but yet this person is living large, going on vacation, putting their kids in college. It's a bit hard to see that happen.

Do you think there's enough safety nets protecting people that are in these true crime spaces, these documentaries? Do you feel, in talking to the people you've talked to, are people being protected by these production companies that are making this stuff?

Not at all.

Because I guess there's two sides to it, right? People are like, true crime is exploitative and it's too much, and the other side is like, this is giving people a voice. Where do you sit on the scene at the moment? Because there's also so many different approaches to these stories as well.

I really like. in the UK, there's a set of rules that they go off of documentaries for the survivors. They bring a mental health advocate for the survivors. And here in the US, that's not really a thing.

It's the Wild West.

Oh yeah, yeah. There's no guidelines. There's not a set of rules that we go off of. It's just, okay, you want to interview Casey Anthony, you want her story out there, okay, get it. And it's really unfortunate, because with that case, it's so, in my opinion, in plain sight, wrong.

Right now, Tara says she's trying to take some of that power back. She's had her story told in the podcast Dirty John, and then that podcast was turned into that TV series in 2019.. Now she has her own podcast about the true crime genre called The Survivor Squad, and it's her voice.

So I'm able to bond with them on the certain level of relationships and that aspect even.

As the name suggests, she talks to other survivors,

survivors of the crime and of the true crime genre.

You really don't have control of your own story when it gets out there in the media. But what I'm doing now is trying to regain control, trying to help survivors know, okay, so if they do a podcast and they don't sign anything, they could take that and make money off of it, no problem. Same with a TV series. They could take that from the podcast and use that information, because that becomes public record.

Any advice to people when they're being drawn into these worlds where people are telling their story? Know your worth.

Know that you could fight for anything. You could try to get in contact with any production company, any producer, any director. Just keep reaching out and making noise, because if you keep doing that, you will make a difference.

Talking to Tara, I get the feeling she's used to talking about her story, the attack and what happened to her and her family. And that maybe in some way, all this talking has been a sort of therapy. But then I remember the story in Dirty John, how crazy it was, how dark all that she went through, and how she still has people like me coming to talk to her about it.

What do you do to stay sane and light out of the heaviness of some of this stuff? What's your happy place to go to?

I watch yoga and then I watch Sweet Home Alabama on repeat.

As we've been talking, a small crowd started to gather inside the bar. It's time for me to leave Tara to go and do her thing, to share her story again. Part of me worries about her having to keep dealing with this. Then I see Dixon by her side and remember what she did. And I remember that she's about a thousand times tougher than me and she'll be just fine.

She is tough as nails. I kind of wish I could talk more about what she actually did. But if people haven't listened to Dirty John or watched it, I kind of don't want to spoil it. Which again is a weird thing True Crime does, because I'm talking about something that's been in the news and yet I'm sitting here thinking I don't want to give spoilers.

A spoiler like it's a movie.

Yeah, like it's a movie. But I don't, because the storytelling is so good. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, I do know what you mean. That's inherent in this problem.

Yeah, it's this really crazy bubble that exists, with so many interesting issues around it. I haven't decided where I sit on so many of these things.

It's really complicated. So she was involved in the podcast.

Yeah, she was interviewed for the podcast. Yeah, it was a series of articles. Then it was a podcast. She was a part of that. She had no idea where it would suddenly be sitting.

Yeah, you can't. So okay, but then, once the podcast was made, she agreed to be part of.

Yeah, no, she's into it. I think she's just in hindsight, she's looking at it going, what am I left with now? You know, I've got this story out there. What do I do?

Did she have anything to do with the show at all?

That's a really good question. I don't know. I think that basically the rights for that podcast would have been sold.

Yeah, having nothing to do with her. Like. they wouldn't have had to ask her. Like. that's also a bizarre thing that all of a sudden your life can be commodified and you have nothing to do with it.

Yeah, there's something about. it feels a bit off, right? Yeah. And I think of the Dharma narrative. There was that scene that we talked about, where you've got this black woman who was in court.

And are they changing the name?

This doesn't even feel.

It's just odd, because there are rules around certain things. Can you do a movie off of someone's memoir and not include them?

This is actually.

What if a show gets made about Fightless Bird and there's an actor playing the adult Disney woman, and then she's like, fuck.

What if they make a true crime show about Fightless Bird and they cast us as the actors? and the person playing me is some deranged, awful person?

But we own that IP, so they would have to buy it from us, to be fair.

Because we're in America, we'd sue.

Exactly, exactly.

We'd take them for everything.

Oh, I can't wait for that to happen, actually.

Yeah, if you're thinking about it, please. I think it's all interesting things to think about. when you're watching and enjoying these true crime shows, is thinking about the people in them. Have they been consulted? Would they like their portrayal?

And docs are stories.

That's the point. Yeah, totally. It's something I saw Michael Moore give a talk, The Bowling for Columbine, Doc Maker. And he said something about documentary. And he just made this really clear point that's always stuck with me, that documentaries, they're films.

What's the best true crime, doc? What's your favorite?

Well, look, I've actually I've made a little top 10 of my docs, but they're not in order. But I sort of wanted to go through them and just quickly give them a shout out.

Okay.

None of them are perfect, but I think they do really interesting things. And the first one is a doc called Dear Zachary, which is, I think, on your list on the Armchair website, right? It's Dax's favorite doc. I feel like he's talked about it.

It's like.

Have you watched it or just heard about it?

I think I've just heard. Wait, can you remind me?

I've gone through IMDb because I always muck up my recollection of everything. So this is the synopsis for Dear Zachary. A filmmaker decides to memorialize a murdered friend when his friend's ex-girlfriend announces she's expecting his son. And so basically this documentary maker, he's not even a doc maker. He just picks up a camera and starts filming.

The documentarian's best friend is murdered.

So he starts thinking, I'm very curious about this because his ex was involved. And as he's making the documentary, really bad stuff happens. And it's so deeply personal. It's the least objective documentary you'll ever see, because it's all someone very emotively trying to discover why his best friend was killed. And what unfolds, a child's born during the making of the doc.

I just got chills.

Yeah, some stuff happens. This is just a little bit of the trailer of Dear Zachary. It was from 2008.. And also for anyone wanting to know where to watch these because people are watching and listening in all different countries, just Google it. Like, no, the frustrating thing is like, if you say like,

Was that necessary for you to say? That was so aggressive.

No, no, but if like, if anything's out, it's out on Netflix. Netflix America might have a thing. Netflix Iceland won't have it. I see filmmakers releasing things all the time, especially docs. And everyone's like, where is it?

All right, let's hear the trailer. I didn't have to get killed.

I'm an only child. And I'll get around to why this is of any importance whatsoever. When I had to say, was my son murdered? And take that into your soul. And then to know how cold-bloodedly he was murdered.

Now, but, Dear Zachary is, have you seen it, Rob? No, I have not. I watched it in a cinema at a film festival in New Zealand. Pretty much the whole cinema was just crying the whole time. It's rough.

This is awful, David.

Blackfish and the Cove are the two ones I want to talk about next. And I think you mentioned this weeks ago on Armchair about the Blackfish doc in regards to zoos.

And SeaWorld, yeah.

Blackfish was made in 2013.

Even though I claimed I didn't think dolphins were actually cute, that it's just in our zeitgeist.

So in New Zealand, I loved your argument. I love that. you're taking on dogs. You're like, fuck dogs. And now you're taking on dolphins.

It's the best.

Well, I like dolphins, but they are predators.

We've talked about it. They're horny. Yeah, they'll attack.

They'll rape.

Stay tuned for more Flightless Bird.

We'll be right back after a word from our sponsors.

I'm at 78%. I'm pretty good right now.

I've been low. Cold weather. I don't feel like going out. I ordered two new Lego sets. I'm just at home building Lego.

But that's good. It's good to recharge. I was feeling so low battery, but then I had therapy and I talked a bunch of stuff out and I have it again tomorrow and I'm excited. I already have a list of things I need to talk to her about. Yeah, cool.

It can be easy to ignore that social battery and you can just end up feeling a bit slumpy at different times of the year, and therapy can be a good fix.

It can.

It can also just give yourself awareness to build a social life that doesn't drain your battery. Maybe you're living a social life in a way that doesn't make sense to you, and there might be smarter ways to do it.

And it's often so helpful to have a third person who can see it.

And as good as building Lego is, you do sometimes need to leave the house and see other humans, because it's a part of being a human being. I'm still, in my therapy, sorting out boundary things. I think I'm getting better, but I still cave to things and I say yes to things and I should say no. So yeah, find your social sweet spot with BetterHelp. Visit BetterHelp.com slash bird today to get 10% off your first month.

No, they're fine. Okay. Hold on. We have to be really clear. We have to stop this whole thing.

Yeah, kill those dolphins.

No, I don't want them to be dead. I like them. I just like to be objective about. we all think they're so cute.

Yeah, culturally, we are being told.

That they're cute. And I don't think things that aren't cute should be killed. You can be ugly and you should live. But I just...

It's one of the best things you've said. You know, I look, I see your point. I think there are cuter animals than the dolphin.

Yeah, but they're great.

These are both really good. docs. Blackfish and the Cove do a double hit. Quite intense. Here's a little trailer from Blackfish, which is probably my favorite of the two.

When Tilikum arrived at SeaWorld, he was twice as large as the next animal.

We stored these whales in what we call a module, which was 20 feet across and 30 feet deep. And the lights were all turned out. Probably led to what I think is a psychosis.

All whales in captivity are all psychologically traumatized.

It's not just Tilikum. If you were in a bathtub for 25 years, don't you think you'd get a little psychotic?

Oh, my god.

Yeah, true. I actually love the bathtub, but not for 25 years. I think Blackfish is a great example of how documentaries can create real life change. SeaWorld profits dropped 84% after the film was released. And that's a pretty amazing result.

It's shut down, right?

SeaWorld's still going. Oh, it is? Yeah, SeaWorld's still doing its thing. And they still have captive orcas. People still go to SeaWorld, but they have really suffered from this.

I'm impressed by America that people took that to heart. And not just one side of the political spectrum took that to heart. It sounds like a lot of people did.

I think just the whole bathtub analogy and just going like, we probably shouldn't be keeping these things. I don't want to be in a bath for that long.

I know.

I didn't clock it until I saw it.

I'm glad that that analogy hit home. for people. I think whatever works, but it's not a very good analogy because we aren't meant to be in water at all times. So it doesn't really make sense. Like whales do exist in water.

Yeah, that is an advantage they have.

It's more like she should say, would we like to be living in a closet for 25 years? No, this is true. I'm happy with the way I revised that.

It created a big change. So Blackfish, big fan. Have you seen it? No. You should watch it.

I have a lot to watch.

Okay. The Jinx. This is one of your faves. 2015..

You loved it too?

I loved it. I think The Jinx is one of the best true crime docs ever made. Andrew Jarecki made it. Again, from the synopsis, Jarecki examines the complicated life of reclusive real estate icon Robert Durst, the key suspect in a series of unsolved crimes. God, it's good.

I agree, because I hate reenactments.

Same. Remember, like the old true crime shows when you were kids?

Unsolved Mysteries.

Unsolved Mysteries. Everything's in shadow and really cheesy. I think The Jinx made people realize that this is a really legitimate form of storytelling. Plus, you had your central character, Durst, burping when you're like nervous.

Anytime. a doc has real time change, as it's developing over time, the documentarians are having to adjust because new things are happening and the person at the center is-.

That's a really good point, because that's another thing. this does so well. It's got these really slick recreations, but then what it does in the final episode is it pivots and it shifts, as it shifts into real time. Suddenly, you're in the interview with the crew. You're seeing how it's all being set up and again, I don't want to spoil things, but there's an incredible moment.

Yes, and now we expect it and we want it. It's like, they did it. Why can't you?

The ending of The Jinx, the central character is wearing a mic, goes into the bathroom at the end, starts mumbling under his breath, and it's all captured, and it's kind of remarkable.

God, it's so good.

It's so good. Again, some ethical issues, the way that audio at the end was edited. It was edited in a way that slightly changed the impact of it, which is a really interesting thing to read up on after you've watched it. I also read an interesting bit of trivia. Robert Durst used doe-eyed contact lenses during the filming of the doc to make him appear like a baby deer.

Whoa.

Some contacts just made his eyes a bit more, doe, a bit more like, oh.

Like you care about him a little bit. Like you care about him. And you do, actually. He's a weird character in that even early on, you're kind of like, yeah, I think he's murdered. It seems like he's murdered.

It seems very clear. But his eyes are, I'm actually going to order some doe-eyed contacts. Oh no, no, no. I'm a bit more innocent as I sit across from you.

That's so creepy that you'd have to change your eyes to appear likable.

Looking at me, like, to disagree.

And I'm just like, oh, little doe eyes.

Okay, this is a little bit of the jinx.

She talked on the telephone with her husband. Then she vanished and no one has seen Kathleen Durst since. Durst was wanted for murder in Texas. He's a suspect for murders in Los Angeles. Westchester County, New York.

Might be a little eccentric.

I think Bob is very smart. I mean, he's managed to get away with three murders.

Sorry, I don't mean to laugh.

I know.

It's a crazy laugh.

It is a sign of intelligence.

Yeah. No, I mean, it's a remarkable series. If you haven't seen the jinx, Google it, watch it. It's great. I wanted to highlight a number for The Staircase.

Just talking and finishing our drinks. And then she said, I got to go in because I've got the conference call in the morning. And she started walking out that way. And I stayed right here. Don't think I say anything special to her.

Alive.

No. She was alive when I found her. But barely. I know.

I know. The Staircase, to me, is the actual, first true crime piece of media that hit the mainstream.

I'm with you.

This, I think, is the actual turning point. Even though I want to give props to Serial, I do think it's The Staircase.

Staircase is remarkable. When I made Tickled, I had no idea what I was doing because I'd never made a doc before. And my producer, Cathy Neal, told me, you must watch The Staircase. And that kind of started my interest in the genre, in a way. And yeah, The Staircase is brilliant because you are embedded with this man.

But also, okay, to be fair to us and the world, tragedy is funny in some ways. There's always something that you're like, what the fuck? And in this case, it's that, right?

It's what, like Shakespeare, nailed down to, right? It's this, what the fuck? This is crazy.

Life has both happening all at once. And when you see it in a story, it's very apparent, right? Where it's like, oh my God, the same thing. Same with Robert Durst. There's multiple murders in that story where it's like, wait, he already did that.

We've watched so much fiction and so much made up storytelling, as writers try and surprise us. But nothing can be more surprising than the stuff that's happened in reality, right?

Yeah.

And yet, The Staircase, if you can hunt down the original series, it's very long. The Netflix series is truncated slightly, but the original French one is so in-depth. And the other thing it does, which True Crime doesn't often get to do, you're embedded with his defense team.

Yeah, I love it.

And being with his lawyers as they're coming up with how to defend him, it's fucking extraordinary. Yes.

Speaking of, that reminds me of, I wonder if it's on your list. And I had not thought about this in a long time, Making a Murderer.

Yeah, Making a Murderer. That's not on my list. It's on my honorable mentions of cultural impact. Because that was huge.

Yes, yes, yes.

And that was an incredibly well put together story that left a lot of things unturned. And I think just...

And about our justice system too. I think that's what hit home. the most for me about that whole story is, oh my God, the justice system is so fucked.

Which is, I think, why we're drawn to this stuff as well, because I've never been put on trial for something. But it's like, you're always fascinated by... I'm not going to. I've got something to tell you. You do think, how would I fare if I was drawn into the system?

Oh my God. Would you throw me under the bus?

I was talking with Rosabelle about this the other day. Okay. And I think you and Liz talked about this on Sync as well.

We did.

Look, it depends your intent with the murder.

Yeah.

I tend to help friends. But then if you had...

If I was a menace to society?

Yeah. Would you do it again? Right. You know, it's, would you do it again? What was your intent to kill this person?

I know.

I have a recurring dream where I wake up and I've done a hideous crime, like a murder. Really? And I wake up in absolute panic of guilt. I feel the guilt and think, oh no, another day of living with this thing I've done that no one knows about. What does that mean?

I think it means you are living with some sort of guilt about something. Obviously not, I don't think, that you've murdered.

To be clear, I haven't murdered. Or if I did, I don't remember.

Right. Either you blocked out a murder or you haven't murdered. But you have guilt, I think, I mean, since I'm your therapist now, this is religious-based.

Yeah. That's actually what my actual therapist actually sees as... No, really. That religion gives you a lot of guilt.

When you're indoctrinated in the way you were, guilt is going to be in your life for a long time. And you have to work on shutting that because you didn't do anything.

I genuinely hadn't really made the connection with that guilt dream. But I was just like, there's that horrible dream again about how I've done something awful and I'm living with it.

Well, they make you feel that if you leave the church or if you abandon Jesus, it's akin to murder.

The worst thing. Yeah, totally. It's the worst thing you can do.

And you've done that.

Oh, God.

But it's good. It is good.

It's good. It's good murder.

One bit of trivia about The Staircase that I really like. I'm going to read this out. Film editor Sophie Brunette had a 15-year relationship with the subject of The Staircase, Michael Peterson. No. Lasting from 2002 until 2017..

Oh, my God.

I love that fact. So when you're watching The Staircase, remember it's being edited by the person that is fucking-.

Who's in love with him.

The guy that's potentially the killer.

Wow. Love that. I love that.

And if you're a documentary editor, the director isn't there by your side directing everything. An editor of a doc is almost as much of a director as the director. Yeah, oh, for sure. They're in there making decisions, right? Huge, yeah.

You make the whole, you decide what's coming.

What is going to come to the listeners. So I find that fact, chef's kiss fact. Wait a minute.

Do you think you're the type of person who could fall in love with a prisoner? Because I think this is similar.

You know, I am. I'm attracted to people who are, I hate to admit it, but I start to think I'm a bit edgy. You know, I don't like to be attracted to like the regular things. And so I think someone in prison-.

That's also your religious thing, by the way.

Get out of my fucking head.

That is true.

So yeah, I think. potentially, again, it depends what they did. I'm also avoidant. Right. And so having someone in prison would be heaven.

That's great for you.

Because it's a thrill when I get my little conjugal visit. Yeah, but you don't have to see them that often. I'm not being bothered by texts. I'm not being bothered by having to really commit to anything. Brilliant.

No, okay. Listen, I, okay.

It could be a whole episode.

About you doing that?

Yeah, me falling in love.

We could do a whole series on you falling in love.

It can be about the prison system. But instead of taking like a heavy-handed look at the prison industrial complex, it's just me trying to find a girlfriend in prison.

Looking at the market. Oh, my God. Quite problematic. Well, I was sort of falling in love with Ad Nod in Serial.

Charming, right?

Yeah, sweet boy.

He's out now.

Sweet boy, I know. Anyway, okay, go on. Last Call.

I mentioned this in the documentary, but it's a series on HBO. And it is about a serial killer who is stalking gay men in New York. And it's a really good example of the killer not being put up on a pedestal. So you watch anything to do with Jeffrey Dahmer, including the old Shedding Dangerous we did about Dahmer. The center of our attention was Dahmer.

Yeah.

This is a little trailer from that.

Dad went down to New York on a business trip and never came home.

My brother. My uncle. My friend.

He just disappeared.

These were pickup crimes. They were last seen at a gay bar, Five Oaks, the townhouse.

Clearly a serial murderer going after gay men was on the loose.

It was so frightening because everyone was a suspect. The queer community was very much trying to push law enforcement to give a shit.

Yeah, it's really good. Last Call, it's on HBO. It's really good.

Okay.

Shout out to The Thin Blue Line at number six. It's from 88.. Errol Morris directed it. Errol Morris is the guy who basically made the recreation a viable thing. Oh.

Gus Rose walked out.

It's really an incredible doc.

Isn't it a false confession thing?

I don't want to say.

Oh, false confession genre. Nothing makes me more angry.

I tend to agree. Yeah, it's so frustrating.

It's like too much for my brain to handle that people are getting tricked into ending their lives.

Yeah, completely. The pressure that can go on in some of those rooms when you have got a cop in front of you.

And they pick really vulnerable people. They're really smart about who they pick to get a false confession.

Yeah, and you're just pressuring young people who've been told you'll be set free if you just say this thing. or, you know, just do this thing. Exactly.

I would do it.

You'd cave in a room? I think. Yeah, I think I'd be capable of caving as well. Like the pressure if you're being locked away and confronted by like a bunch of cops.

Yeah, and for a long ass time. We don't really recognize that. That your brain does go into like a different mode. And I think you're just in survival mode. Get me out of here.

Yeah, completely. Yeah, I know. We all like to think that we will do the right thing. But there's a reason that people don't do the right thing. And it's not because necessarily they're bad people.

Have you talked to him?

I met him very briefly. He was in New Zealand. I bumped into him in a store, which was so weird.

What? And you recognized him?

Yeah, he's very distinctive. And I followed his story for so long. Peter Jackson actually made his own version of this documentary later on. And he came to New Zealand to do a Q&A. And I remember being in this pack theater.

Yeah, yeah.

This was one of the worst. You had Peter Jackson up there and Damien and people just wanted to do the monologue. So they weren't really questions. They just wanted to share a story. It was really painful.

Anyway, did he say anything in that Q&A that stuck with you?

To be honest, no, because I don't really remember it. Because most of the questions were just so terrible. But just seeing him up there was powerful. You know, here's this guy that was wrongfully convicted just because he listened to a lot of heavy metal and the town didn't like him. He was on death row.

I want to know more about that.

It's actually, should probably be a flightless bird, a death row episode. It is a really interesting thing that America does. Not every state, obviously. But for me, there's almost no greater fear or punish. It's just, to me, horrific.

Yeah, we should do that. We should do that. And maybe you can talk to him. But now I'm becoming that person who's like trying to exploit.

If we could come to him with a certain way, that he could come to the table where he would want to tell something he wanted to tell, that would be a great thing to explore with someone like Damien.

What a horrible, horrible experience. Okay, go on.

This is just a quick bit from that trailer.

In a statement given to the police and obtained by a Memphis newspaper, 17-year-old Jesse Misskelly allegedly confesses to watching two other suspects choke, rape, and sexually mutilate three West Memphis second graders. The murders had been part of a satanic ritual.

Satanic worship.

A horrific, ritualistic sacrifice. We're just sitting on the couch watching TV. the night we were arrested. They had to find somebody to pin this on. This trouble was getting out of hand.

Anyway, it turns out they didn't do the murder. And they just went to death row for a long time. Also features music by Metallica. Yeah. Love, Metallica.

Yeah, that's a great, again, one of the big original docs, that sort of transcended time, I think.

Totally. If you haven't seen Paradise Lost, big ups. Okay, number eight. Capturing the Freedmans. This is dark.

Okay.

The scenario posted by the media and the police was so incredibly way out. The very nature of these charges is so absurd. It was just generally a free for all.

I don't think any of us had any notion of what was going on or what we were doing or.

where any of this was leading.

Look, this is probably one of the more intense docs on here. It's pretty dark.

Darker than Dear Zachary?

I'd say it's similar. Yeah, it's dealing with similar issues. It goes dark. It goes places. And during the making of the film, Arnold, who was accused of these horrific crimes, his eldest son picks up a camcorder and just starts filming the family.

God, but how can you not get invested? It's impossible.

Yeah. And it is that thing of there's this discussion, you know, journalism should be objective. And sure, it should, but also nothing is objective.

Nothing is, nothing is.

Because we're humans. And if you have a human writing or doing anything, then yeah.

I wonder what will happen when AI becomes journalistic.

Yeah, I mean, it's writing shit. now. It's terrifying. But yeah, one could argue, is that more objective than a human being writing it?

Interesting.

When it's also being trained on a lot of humans.

It's trained by humans, so probably not. It'll also have the same biases, which is crazy. Okay. Okay.

Number nine, The Impostor. Have you seen The Impostor?

No.

It's from 2012.

Wow.

So you've got a family who's had a missing son for three years. Suddenly, guy turns up, same age. Looks like. Looks quite different. No, no, no.

Oh, these parents.

Oh, this is heartbreaking.

The Impostor and The Staircase, I both used as motivation for How I Made Tickled. It's just a really great, compelling story, the way it's constructed. It's just the perfect arc of information. It takes you on a journey. God, you'll love this one.

Okay. But the thing is, it's kind of interesting that the title is a big giveaway, or is it not?

Yeah, no, it is a big giveaway. It is a big giveaway. And I think, yeah, the entire time, though, the joy of it is, you go in thinking, this guy's an imposter. As you're watching, you start to second guess some of that stuff. Oh my God.

We found a kid here who's about 14, 15 years old.

The thought of what somebody could have done to him, it gives you nightmares.

He doesn't have no ID, no documents on him. He's very scared.

From as long as I remember, I wanted to be someone else.

We had no idea what kind of person we were getting. He had changed so much.

There was just something wrong about it.

I've seen this one.

Wow.

You've seen it, Ro? Yeah, I've seen this one. It's pretty remarkable, right? Yeah.

Okay, but this brings up an interesting ethical question, because if you're a parent and your child goes missing for three years, let's be, I mean, this is so harsh and horrible to say, but by the police standards, they're most likely dead.

Yeah.

If you are comforted by the idea that this kid is back-.

What's the problem with that?

If you really start breaking it apart, is it a net positive that the parents actually feel better, even though it's all a lie?

Yeah, I agree. And I think there's probably worlds where it might be okay. I think you'd have to question the motivations of the child that comes back. No, you're going to love this one. It keeps you guessing the whole way.

I'm excited. I'm going to report back.

The final thing on my list is a podcast. Obviously, there's the serials and the shows like that, that we've all listened to. There's also one out of New, Zealand, I think, which I haven't listened to, I think called Who Shat on the Floor at My Wedding. Oh, my God. And it's a true crime podcast where someone takes a...

Oh, I love that. That's hilarious.

So if you're wanting something a bit lighter, where there's no death, I recommend that. But In the Dark, I think it had three seasons, but season two is the thing that I just think everyone should listen to. It's my favorite true crime telling of a story in podcast form. It explores the legal odyssey surrounding Curtis Flowers, who was accused of shooting four people to death inside Tardy Furniture in Mississippi in 1996.. I'll play a little bit of an episode, but it's just beautifully told.

It's been more than three years since I got an email from a woman telling me about a man named Curtis Flowers. In the time since, I'd moved to Mississippi, interviewed hundreds of people, examined every piece of evidence in the case against him. And yet, in all that time, there was one person I was never able to really talk to. Until now.

Yeah, In the Dark, season two, it's so compelling and so good. And I just feel not as many people know about it as the likes of a serial, and I think it could do with some more listens.

I love this. David, this is awesome. I think this has been great. You are an expert in this field.

I'm a fan of the field.

Okay, you can say you're a fan, but you are an expert in the field. I think I've texted you before and said, what are your favorite docs?

You have, yeah, thank you.

Just because I need to know from someone who understands the medium. Tickled would be on so many people's lists. I appreciate you did not put it on yours, and you stayed humble, but it would definitely be on mine. And if you have not watched Tickled, which I'm sure at this point, if you're listening to this show, you probably have. It's incredible.

It's a fun one. There's actually, you've just highlighted such a cultural thing. that I'm still dealing with, is, if you compliment a New Zealander, we just want to disappear into the ground.

Small poppies.

But thank you.