Taraji P. Henson
2024-01-01 02:09:50
Hi, I’m Dax Shepard, and I love talking to people. I am endlessly fascinated by the messiness of being human, and I find people who are vulnerable and honest about their struggles and shortcomings to be incredibly sexy. I invite you to join me as I explore other people’s stories. We will celebrate, above all, the challenges and setbacks that ultimately lead to growth and betterment. What qualifies me for such an endeavor? More than a decade of sobriety, a degree in Anthropology and four years of improv training. I will attempt to discover human “truths” without any laboratory work, clinical trials or data collection. I will be, in the great tradition of 16th-century scientists, an Armchair Expert.
Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. I'm Dan Shepard, and I'm joined by a New Year's Eve mouse with a little hearty hat on.
Eating some cheese.
Eating some celebratory cheese. Happy New Year's to everybody.
Happy New Year's, armchairs. This year, 2024,, we'll mark our sixth year on air.
On planet Earth.
A little longer on Earth.
No record of it, though. That's the problem.
You're right, you're right, six years.
We have a wonderful guest today. Taraji P. Henson. Oh, what a firecracker. We love Taraji so much.
She is an Academy Award-nominated actor. We loved her in Hidden Figures, Empire, The Curious Case of Benjamin Button. Not many people could be the mom of Brad Pitt, but she did it.
Of BP.
Hustle & Flow, What Men Want, and she is out in the movie right now that everyone is loving, that spectacular, The Color Purple, the musical version.
Yes, I said this in the fact check, but it should be said now for people who don't listen, and if you don't listen, boo humbug to you. But I think this is a great episode to start the year, because she's very positive and optimistic, and I love her attitude.
Me too, me too. She is the perfect spirit for 2024..
Yes, wait, do you know one thing?
You know how I changed the color of my background to the Pantone color of the year. Do you know this, yeah?
Yes, you are very religious. Did you, you just gave me a thumbs up on the screen?
Listen, hold on, this happened to me the other day. I was FaceTiming someone, and a thumbs up appeared. I don't know, do you think it's because it's read, like?
Do you think someone's hacked your, oh my.
If I do a thumbs up, it can see that, and then it does an emoji?
Let me see if, when I do it, it does. No, no. Oh, oh, my God. Okay, you're on a special, what are you on? You're just on a laptop, right?
I'm on my phone.
Oh, well, that makes more sense. It does? Because earlier, when we fact-checked, you were on your computer.
I was, yeah.
And I was like, that old ass thing is doing, reading your hand and putting emojis on screen? That seems improbable.
I'm still shocked that my phone can do it.
Me too, but 2024, welcome.
Oh, AI city.
AI city.
This means that I have changed my phone to a very beautiful peach.
Oh, oh, yes, yes. But did you not have a story about when you changed it three weeks ago? Not a verbal story, an Instagram story.
Oh yeah, I posted that it was announced. The color was announced, but now it's happened.
Oh, okay. It wasn't a screenshot of your screensaver?
No.
Okay, are you willing to share that with everyone?
A screenshot of my screensaver?
Of course. Yes, yes, this is so boring.
It's out now. It's out on my stories right now, everyone. Go, go, look. Go, check it out.
All right, please enjoy Taraji.
Follow me on Instagram.
Taraji P. Henson.
He's an armchair experiment.
He's an armchair experiment.
He's an armchair experiment.
Is the air on? No. It's hot. Oh, wow. I know.
This is unexpected.
It is, she's always cold. I'm always chilly.
You're always cold and I'm always hot, but I just cold, point-click.
Oh, oh sure.
Do I need these or what?
Yeah, you're cold.
It's up to you. You don't have to. I can explain in boring detail why we prefer it.
If you do it, I'll do it. Okay. We do it, we do it.
Oh, I like, that's the spirit.
I've ended up a lot of places with that sentence being stated versus. you do it, I'll do it. I do it, I'll do it.
I'll end up on the other side of the world. Yeah, you know why I like it?
It makes it even more intimate.
Yeah, it blocks out everything. And also, I'll end up talking to you. I already talk loud, too loud. It's all good. When my wife and I first started dating, at one point, she said, turn around for a second.
Where is the volume knob on you? You're like on, I need to turn you down to seven or something. So how deep into this tour are you? Few weeks.
We started just before Thanksgiving. Everything is a blur now. We started here, we did New York, we've been to London.
And when you say we, are you going with the other cast members?
Yeah, it's usually our director, Blitz Bozzolule, Danielle Brooks, Fantasia, myself, you know, the three Cork women. Coleman Domingo, you know, he's having an incredible year.
I can do 10 on him.
Earmark that, I want to do 10 on him. Yeah, so you know, he comes and goes when he can, because he's very busy.
Sure, sure. Does he bring the thunder when he rolls in?
Oh, I love him.
Oh, good.
He's just so nurturing and he's just so careful with you. Oh, that's lovely. Just in life, you know? Doesn't have to do anything with work or being on set. This is just who this man is, and it's so infectious.
I just love him. I love this entire, you know, Blitz texted me on the way here. Blitz sent me a picture of us yesterday when we received our Critics' Choice, and Getty took a picture and look at the laughter and the joy.
Hold on, you already won an award?
Yeah.
Wow. How?
The movie's not out yet, is it?
I know.
Hey, how does that work?
The critics get to see things soon.
They saw it a year ago.
Look at the joy.
Oh, look at this beautiful ensemble.
Look at the joy. That's lovely. And he said, I just love us. That's literally the energy that was on the set every day.
It's incredible.
Have you seen it yet?
I saw it last night. Yeah, I watched it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That energy and the chemistry, it's real.
Well, I'm gonna add a word, rhythm, too. It can be literal, because it is a musical, but there's also a cohesion in the spirit.
Woo, you hit on something that gave me chills, because I was just having this conversation with my makeup artist on the way here, because we saw 10-10 on the, we're very spiritual, Virgos, and we looked up what 10-10 meant, and it's just like, you're walking in your purpose, just be patient, your words are powerful, be careful what you speak, and if you see 10-10 all the time, then you're in alignment. It broke down 101, 10, 1,010, it broke it down so many ways. But anyway, one of the things she was saying was the synergy and the spirit, and how Blitz handpicked all of us. The studio didn't want us.
Come on.
We were not their top picks, none of us. Not even Danielle Brooks, who's been on Broadway. Well, actually, Fantasia was. Scott, our producer, did call on her, and she was like, no. She didn't wanna do it, because when you take on these characters that have been so traumatized, and if it's kind of parallel to yours, it opens up your wounds that maybe you felt like you've healed, and it's hard to carry that person's cross and yours.
Yeah, well, there's a few things there. Yeah, do you wanna spend time in that zone? Other additional issue, you're on very hollowed ground. You're taking on a character that will be won an Oscar for, I believe, right?
The film got like 13 nominations. I don't think anyone won. that. I can't remember, don't quote me. Let's look it up.
An intimidating role to take, even though now the genre's different, and this is a musical version of The Color Purple. I'm nervous to step into something that was done perfectly, if I'm someone else, or maybe not.
Well, I'll tell you like this. When I got the call, my manager called me during the pandemic, and he was like, you're being tapped to play Suge Avery, and I was like, what the fuck? Why are we, what?
Why are we doing, that's a classic, don't touch it. Yeah, 1985, we did it.
But then Blitz broke down how he saw it, and one thing that stood out for me, and that literally sealed the deal for me wanting to do it, was, it was a black man telling the story this time, so we were owning our narrative. And the fact that he saw something in me.
Trust the universe, because I remember, go with me here. Stephanie Allain produced Hustlin' Flow. I sang the hook to the rap song.
Saw it out here for a pimp.
Right, sang it at the Oscars.
Trying to get a dollar out of 15 cents.
Just sang it at the Oscars.
Just sang it at the Oscars, and the song won.
No sweat.
Right, so Stephanie Allain is married to Stephen Bray. Stephen Bray did the music on Broadway, and the music in this film. Stephen Bray tapped me years ago to do it on Broadway, and I turned it down.
Because?
Because I trained in musical theater, I know what it takes for your voice to stand eight shows of weeks singing at that capacity.
It's all you can do, you can't chat at dinner, you can't talk to anyone else.
I wasn't ready for that. Yeah, yeah, that's fair. I knew my voice wouldn't survive it.
So what year was this?
Oh God, I can't even remember. 20 years ago.
Oh, that long ago. Like that long ago. Okay, it's not that you were working also so feverishly in other things. I just knew. It was just the commitment you knew.
Yeah, I was like, I will shred my vocal cords. And singing is not my first passion, like I'm not as confident in it as I am in my acting. You know, my acting is natural to me. These anointed voices, like Fantasia, can probably wake up and just go.
Let it rip.
Baby, I have to go warm up the pipes. I gotta get the dust off. Get my tea and honey, you know. There are things I have to do. And I think a lot of it too is in my head.
And I don't work at it enough. So the natural thing is to second guess yourself. Of course. But what I was saying about Blitz and how he handpicked us, oh, he fought for us. And when you hear all of our stories, it is spiritual, because all of us have a 360 story about how we got into this.
Danielle and Fantasia. on Broadway. Danielle and Corey Hawkins went to Juilliard together. Corey was the first person cast. Corey called Scott, because he was in, what's the other musical that Scott produced?
The Heights.
The Heights. So he got naturally cast first because he worked with Scott on that. Sure. He called Scott and said, I'm grateful to do this part, but you gotta do me a favor. You gotta hire Danielle.
How he picked me and saw me and my story, how I turned it down. And that's the thing, when something is meant for you, it is yours. No one can take it from you. I ran from Suge. 20 years later, she was like, ah, ah.
No, no, no, we have unfinished business.
You know?
And it was in the genre where I could really give it my all and not risk my voice.
Do you also think maybe some life needed to happen to you before?
Absolutely.
Yeah, like there's also some serendipity to the timing and what you can bring from your life experience, I'd imagine. Because that character shows up, a tornado just arrives.
Oh, listen. Everything happens. for a reason. All the roles, the women that I've played, I couldn't have written this better.
Scripted your own life better.
Oh, my God, no. I think too small.
Me too. You know? Yeah. That's why I say you just gotta trust the universe. Know that you're putting out good, you're gonna get good back.
That's just how it works. Yeah. And it's called karma. And so how he handpicked all of us, he had me ugly face cry at a Q&A when we were in New York, because he was like, this was my ideal cast. And every time I gave, I would show up to the studio, these names were never on the list.
I would pitch them, each and every last one of them, as these characters, never on the list. And I just broke out because I've been doing this for over, you know?
Yeah.
And it's like, bitch, I'm still not on the list.
Yeah, what's it take to get on the list already? What the fuck?
What do I have to do, people? I have played a character like Celie before, Suge in Hustle and Flow. I've made Cookie iconic.
You got the Emmy nods. You got a Golden Globe victory.
And not only that, it's bigger than me. The pros that I've played have inspired these babies, hidden figures, the influx of young girls coding. Are y'all fucking paying attention out there?
Yeah.
Yeah, it's crazy. What do you tell yourself? it is?
I guess it's all a part of the struggle, but I'm gonna change the narrative because I do believe what you profess is what you will possess. So if I keep saying things are hard, things are going to be hard. We already know that. We know the inequities that are happening in life. We know it.
So why do we have to keep harping on it? Hollywood, you're going to pay me my worth.
Yeah. It's time.
I've done it all.
Way past time.
Come on. Tons of hits, tons of everything.
And you was also saying I needed more life to happen. Not only that, I'm a leading lady. So to take on something of this magnitude.
You're so fine in real life. Oh. I just want to add.
Yeah.
That came out of nowhere. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you. No, yeah, yeah, 10 out of 10.. Thank you.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I'm single, but you know, that's just life.
Well, you said, leading lady. It felt appropriate. Thank you.
I am a leading lady, but to take on something so historic and something that means so much to the community, I knew exactly how to support her.
Okay, so listen, though. I want to pitch one other thing. So another valuable tool for us is framing. And you have to think about the version of your life. you're telling.
Now, to me, the story where it was a given they'd want you, and then you thought about three other things they also wanted you for, and then you decide, eh, this one works best for my schedule, and that's the story that lands you here. My personal story, keep me as an underdog. I like it. What story do you want to tell? Well, I actually have come to like, yeah, yeah, I'm the underdog, and I still built this.
You know why? That's better. It helps, it inspires. Listen, I could go on and on off that subject.
Yeah, yeah, less, less, less, less.
Gotta formulate my thoughts.
While you're thinking, can I add a couple? Please. A couple that are in that realm. I try occasionally to step back and go like, okay, well, just tell yourself the opposite story and see if you prefer that. And I give credit.
My mother told me this one time. I was talking to her on the phone. I was kind of complaining that someone else had asked me for money. And I hate that. every time I pick up a phone, I think it's gonna be blah, blah.
And my mom said, look, it's as simple as this. In life, you get to be the person they call for something, or you get to be the person calling for something. So what one do you want? Exactly. And I'm like, oh, yeah, I'd way prefer to be called.
So get over it. I got the role I want. So again, foregone conclusion, I'm about to do something versus no one thought of me. I come in, I fucking crush it. Fuck you.
I way prefer that.
How many times? Because I get the initial sense of like, I got overlooked and now I'm here. Now you're here. You should be there.
Stay here. Yeah.
So here's the deal. You should get paid, but I'm just saying, you're talking about people on top of the mountain. And all I'm suggesting is top of the mountain is not actually a place you want to be. As a counter perspective.
If you're at the top of the mountain, you gotta have a story that inspires people to want to be at the top of the mountain. If you're at the top of the mountain, don't forget where the heck you came from. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And still reach back down on a mountain, pull people up. So being on the top of the mountain is a good thing, because you inspire people.
But the point is, is that no one wants to hear how perfect your life is. Even on top of the mountain, it ain't perfect. Yeah. As a matter of fact, once you get on top of the mountain, God damn it, it gets harder.
Well, you guys look at some of our heroes right now. Like the Camelots of our, no one's safe. Soon. as you're there, there's only one more story left to tell about you, the fall down the mountain. So I don't really want to get there, because I know what the story's next and I don't really want that.
You live a good life. My karma's good. Yes. So I'm here to serve. That is what humans are supposed to be.
We need each other to make the world go round. God is brilliant. He put us here. He made us all look different, because we need to figure this shit out, and it ain't hard. Have compassion.
Go out and travel and meet people and learn different people and listen to each other. Don't be afraid of the truth.
We're all broadcasters now. We don't receive messages. We just send them out. We're in the publishing business as opposed to the conversing business.
Absolutely.
Can we go back to DC?
Let's. Let's go to DC. Mumbo sauce.
My mom took us, my mom was brave. She had three kids, single mom, and she would cart us around the country in a Chevette to see the world. And we went to DC in probably 81.. So I know the vibe of DC in the 80s. It's not the place I visit now.
It's very different.
It's very, very different, as is New York is very, very different. All these cities are beautiful now, but I remember, yeah, we were staying. We got some greasy pizza. We were at like kind of an hourly-ish hotel. There was some gunshots on the parking lot.
Like that was the family vacation in DC.
But what an incredible education. Totally, totally. The best education in my opinion. Oh, I'm so grateful for it.
Because, by the way, everything just continued to feel safer and safer the older I got. But anyways, different place. And I want to know, I feel like it's a unique situation you grew up in. Mom is a manager of a huge retail store.
Yeah. So my mother, born in the South, country, girl, Scotland, Neck, North Carolina. It's like 20 minutes outside of Rocky Mount, a hour and a half from Raleigh. Little, little itty bitty town. My grandfather was a sharecropper.
So you know, that's basically free labor almost.
Yeah. For people that don't, they give you a sliver of the land. you can work for your own needs, but then you're working all the land. It's a version of slavery without ownership.
Absolutely. And you're raising nine children, one not yours. She had eight children biologically, and then she raised one of her nieces. And my mother, they knew about working hard because all the kids had to work. And when they all worked, they only came up with $300 a month.
But you're also talking about when milk was a dollar.
Right, right, right, right.
So they had a system. There were three or four that stayed South, maybe moved to Raleigh. One sister stayed around the corner from my grandmother, and then the rest migrated North. But my auntie, Janie, who passed away, I love you, Janie, rest in peace, I hope you're proud. She moved out first and went North.
And so everybody would come and sleep on her sofa until they found a job. And that's how my mom made it to the big city.
And she moved to the D.C. area?
D.C. area, yeah. So all the other siblings that ended up North, how they got there is they stayed on Aunt Janie's sofa, and then they got a job and got their own place. So that's how my mom ended up there. She met my dad, got married.
He went to Nam, came back. Wasn't his best self, because how do you go to war and return normal?
And how old was he when he went?
I was young. My mom, she had me at 21..
So dad was?
He's two years older than my mom, maybe 19, 20..
Did he come back with any addiction? Alcohol.
Yeah, how could he not, like you said?
Absolutely. My mom was like, well, he never saw any action. I said, Ma, it's still war. You're hearing bombs. You're seeing a friend go and not come back.
You know what's going on. It's not Disneyland.
The adrenaline is at 100, they're living there.
Just being there.
Just trying to cope.
And then, you know, they were experimenting on him, because he came back, aging orange, and literally his flesh would melt off his feet. But I don't know what he did, how he cured himself. I would come in the house, I'd be like, what the hell? Or he'd be sitting there in the tub of, I don't know, bleaching or whatever else, and it went away.
Sounds like he and my dad were the same. My dad used to get poison ivy every couple of days, and his move was Clorox bleach. He just scrubbed the fucking poison ivy.
It's that Trump thing.
Because I swore. What?
You said it.
I feel like that generation come by and, honestly, like, bleach was a cure-all.
Yeah, exactly.
You got toothache? You can fucking brush your teeth with some bleach. Exactly. Let's go. You broke your what?
Broke his some bleach, but he got rid of that aging orange. But they got a divorce when I was two. Then my mom became a single mother. But when she got to D.C., the job she found was working at a department store, sort of like Macy's. Actually, Macy's bought this company.
It was called Woodward and Lothrop. And she worked at a department store in the basement, putting price tags on merchandise, which probably those jobs don't exist anymore because we have robots and machines now. But that's how she started at 18, I believe, and worked her way up the corporate ladder. Not dating anybody, because my mother still is a 10 plus.
Oh, boy.
I mean, drop dead.
I'm not opposed to seeing some photos of her.
Oh, she's, listen. Wow.
She kept it single? You didn't have a bunch of stepdads?
No. My stepdad actually just passed away about a month ago.
I'm sorry. How long were they together?
My mom was like 50-something. when they got married. She found real, true love late. Oh, that's hopeful.
Was she waiting for all the kids to get out? No. No. No. What kept her from being available for that?
It's the same reason. It just, you know.
Yeah, I wanna talk about that.
Oh, I got a whole take on you.
It's choices that you make. And my mom, I have it. We are loving, naturally. And we get it from my grandmother, who's still alive, who's about to make 100.. In April.
And I'm taking her to the theater to see Color Purple Christmas Day. The whole family, we're taking her. And I'm gonna sit right next to her, I'm gonna watch her every facial expression.
Oh, that's so special. She'll be watching the movie, you're watching her.
Yes, and she's so full of life. I remember my cousin said to her, Grandma, today you realize you're 99 and a half. She said, 99 and a half won't do, baby.
Oh, I love that.
I have a feeling she's gonna live beyond 100, because she's created her own blue zone. I'm sure you've seen that. Because it's not a place, it's what you create. She goes to bed every night, expecting to wake up the next day. She makes plans, she travels.
She's never alone. She has her own house, but somebody's always with her. She's just so full of life. And when we have parties, she's the first one up on the dance floor. Oh, my goodness.
She got a boyfriend that dives with hair black.
What's grandma's nickname?
She has a boyfriend? With a gold chain.
Yes, she does.
If you're on the phone and he pulls up,
she's like, baby, I gotta go.
I gotta go.
He's younger than her.
Well, I would hope for her sake. Yeah, that's exactly right. She don't need an older man.
No, she's like her, you know?
Sure, sure, sure.
Okay. No, he's much younger.
Miracles do happen.
Oh man, that's so admirable. I love that.
Okay, so back to mom. There was no stepdads growing up.
No stepdads growing up.
That's a blessing.
Well, she had boyfriends.
She had boyfriends. And how were they?
I didn't like any of them. I think that's the time when I probably got closer to my dad because I was becoming a teenager. And when you're growing up as a young girl and it's two women in the household, you realize that your mom needs something you can't give her. So it's kind of like, I'm trying to do my thing. She's trying to do her thing.
And I love my mom. But you go through these weird transitions and your parents, from the beginning, a boy might cling to his mom. And then, as teenagers, he's over here with pops. You know what I mean? So that kind of thing happened with me.
There's a thing with teenage girls and their moms. It's a stressful period. You're kind of like defining yourself in opposition to her. I've got two daughters and a wife. And so when the three of them hit that, where they're all synced up in their menstrual cycle, I'm going to be out for five days a month.
That's why you need the property. I'm going to get an apartment downtown with a ping pong table, pool table. I'll just be down there. And I'll be like, whenever everyone's done killing themselves, let me know when the dust has settled.
You're making a joke, but you're onto something.
No, I think no one will be safe in this house very shortly. How old are your daughters? Eight and 10.. Going to be nine and 10 next week.
It's coming soon.
You can get just little hints of it. Yeah, comment. So dad, though, did dad remarry?
Both of them. My stepmom is still alive. And when I go home to DC, I still go to my dad's house that she owns. And I actually redid the house for her through houses. House, remember that show?
And yeah, I did that for her because I was like, mama. Angie, it's time for you to have your house. It was still so much of my dad and I get it, but my dad passed in 06.. And when I did it for her, he said, because you give so much. She's always opening the house and feeding and making sure everybody's okay.
I said, I want to do something for you. And I want to give you a little feminine spin on the house. It's time. You deserve it. And so I redid the house and she's just,
redid her kitchen. She's such an incredible cook. And I just made it hers. And she deserves that.
That's lovely. What kind of girl were you in school?
I was a good girl, but I was a cool girl. I was popular. But not popular like.
Not a mean girl.
Not a mean girl. No, no, no, no.
No, thank you.
I was the girl that would sink everybody together. I was like the connecting force.
You were in lots of different groups.
I just got along with everybody. If you didn't like me, something was wrong with you because I was artsy. I was fun. I was the life of the party. I'm a class clown.
And that's because I wasn't being challenged creatively. I had auditioned for. Duke Ellington School of the Fine Arts in DC, didn't get accepted. Corey Hawkins went there. It broke my heart because my best friend got accepted.
But it didn't destroy our relationship at all.
But that's hard. It was hard.
It was a tough pill to swallow, but it was a part of my journey.
But when you're a kid, you've created a story where, if you don't go there, you're not going to the other places you want to go in life.
I totally tricked myself to believe that. That rejection at that age, you don't know what to do with that. And so I followed another friend because now I'm just in regular public school. And she was really smart, Candace Dickens. And she went to North Carolina A&T.
I knew I wanted to go to college. That was the plan.
It was the North Carolina of it? Exciting, because that's where your mom's from? I knew I had family.
I knew I wasn't going to go hungry. Sure.
You could find a meal on Sunday?
Well, yeah, because we had a church on the corner. It's the South. Church on the corner. on Sundays. You can get a fish dinner for $5..
Sure, sure.
Yeah, and it'll last you three days. You know what I mean? Literally.
But really quick, you were going there for electrical engineering.
Following behind Candace, who was smart. And actually that's what she does to this day. But I, on the other hand, am not wired mathematically. My soul wasn't there. And I knew I didn't belong there.
But I had to experience that. And that was the one thing. I loved how my father parented me, because he never told me how to do things. He would show me the scenarios. And be like, it's your choice.
And whatever choice you make, you got to live with it. Good luck.
So he didn't try to talk me out of going to North Carolina A&T, because he could have. But he was like, you needed to fall flat on your face.
And how long were you there?
I did the whole year.
In that year, I'm imagining and starting to set in that this isn't actually your path. And now are you getting more and more scared? What is my path?
Well, two things happened. My English class was in the drama building. The building where all the arts.
All the freaks were.
All my people. Yeah. All my people. It was like a longing. And my heart would do this every time I would walk into that building, because I knew that's where I belonged.
I did not belong over there. I knew I had two tutors and failed pre-calc. My brain wasn't getting it. But, hey, I'm at the HBCU. I'm experiencing the black college experience.
It's amazing. But knowing this is not really my passion. But I did it, and I gave it my best, because that's who I am. I don't care what I'm doing, where I'm working. I'm going to leave good things with you.
You're going to be like, I really liked working with her. So I auditioned, because I had to walk past their bulletin board where they put their auditions and everything that's happening in the fine arts. So I walked by, and I saw audition. My heart did this. And I was like, I'm going to do it.
I'm going to audition. So I went to the library. I don't even remember what monologue I got. It's all a blur. But I remember standing on the stage, and I was shaking, because all I remember was being told.
no. Yes, exactly. Let me tell you about fear. If you give into it, fear had me in a chokehold. I couldn't do the thing that came so natural to me.
My fifth grade teacher, Ms. Lane, saw it in me and put me in a place. She got tired of spanking my hand. Back then, you can get your ass whooped in school, and your mother gave them permission. So she used to spank my hand, and she channeled my energy and put me in a play.
That thing that I did so natural, and she saw in me and put me in that play, and I soared, and it was amazing, I couldn't do, because I believed the lies that I was telling myself. To this day, I don't know if I got a call back. I never went to see.
You never checked.
I never checked.
Because you were certain you had shit the bed on.
I was like, I was horrible. I was shaking. After that, things started feeling weird in my body. I failed pre-calc, and I had to call my dad. I'm like, Dad, I'm so sorry.
Because he had his truck snatched and everything. And I just cried. And he was like, you know what?
I'm glad you failed. I was like, what? Dad, did. I call the right number?
He was like, you needed to go through that. so you can understand. You need to get your ass back up here. Roll in Howard University where your grandmother went, and you get up here and do the thing that you're supposed to be doing. Cut to, I get to Howard.
Of course, this thing is living in my body now. This fear. I'm still waiting for. no. Yes, yes, yes.
This time I was more prepared. I'm in front of Dr. Henrietta, may she rest in peace, my acting teacher, acting 101, baby. I'm in front of her, and I'm doing my monologue, and I could feel myself shaking. But I leaned into it, and I just did it.
When I finished, she said, come here, sit down. I was like, she's gonna tell me no. And she said, you got something.
What, you talking to me?
She was like, you got something, and be careful who you hang out with, because a lot of these kids that are coming in here and getting told, yes, they're not going where you're going, and they're not gonna survive this program.
And I was like, whew, yeah.
Funny thing is, now I'm in all the plays, all the Duke Ellington students are there. You remember, when we were at Duke, I was like, no, they didn't accept me. Now everybody's forgetting that I didn't get accepted, but because I became a part of the family. You know, it's funny, this fear thing. Had I listened to that, we wouldn't be here.
Yeah, and these little moments in time can arrest you.
Oh, what a word. But what I didn't realize is that I was building that tough skin.
This is back to the original story we're telling about you. This is a much better story. You go in your audition, you get straight into the academy, and then it takes you to where you're,
you know, who gives a shit? I was developing a tough skin because all the no's I was about to be told coming out here, I had to go through that, and I had to work my way back to my passion on my own. No one could do it for me.
You're so right. It's coming. Whether you got into Lincoln or not, those people might not have gotten there, but as soon as they got here, they did, or they got to New York, they did. It's inevitable. You're not gonna sidestep it.
Let's get it out of the way. We just had John Batiste on, and he was saying, let's go get rejected today. That's the goal. Let's go get our rejection, get it out of the way, and then keep moving. It's inevitable, so you got it early.
Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.
Every job that I was like, they're gonna reject me, are the biggest ones that I got. Benjamin Button, I was having a garage sale. I didn't want to go and meet Fincher. I was like, why the fuck are y'all calling me on a Saturday? Don't you people rest?
I literally was not going. My agent called and said, girl, if you don't close that garage and go meet, I didn't even know that Lorraine Mayfield, who's a dear friend of mine to this day, had already handpicked me. She saw me in Hustle & Flow, and when I walked into the audition, she got emotional, and I was like, what the, this lady didn't take her medicine. I go in, and she's so touched, and she was like, you are rare, and I'm like, what do you mean? She was like, I sat in the theater watching your work in Hustle & Flow.
Every time you left that screen, I missed you.
I completely agree with her. I so remember, that was my introduction to you. I loved the movie, and then you, yeah, it's a revelation.
So that's what got me cast in Benjamin Button.
The most natural role of your life, to play Brad Pitt's mother.
Oh, my God. I was like, God, are you kidding me? I said I wanted to work with Brad Pitt, but not play his mother.
Yeah, I want to be his lover.
Like a lover.
A lover, not a mother.
The first time he saw me out of the saggy boobs and the big suit, he was like, Mama!
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.
I hope it didn't stand in the way of any off-camera romance.
No, he was so in love with Angela, they just had the baby. Yeah, they had just had the baby.
Because that could have been freaky if you're playing mother and son, but you got a thing on the side. That's a kink right there.
Benjamin got a head of his own.
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. You know what?
Kill your father and do what to your mother?
After what meal?
Lord, have mercy.
Oh, my God, that's so great.
He has such a charisma about him and he's down to earth.
He's like a Missouri boy, right? He really is.
The stuff that he does that no one knows, like out here on his own, without security, feeding the homeless. This is stuff that Brad Pitt does. The rebuild he and Angelina did.
to the ninth war in New Orleans.
This is from the heart. And he doesn't brag about it. People find out about it and say it.
If he were a bragger, it'd be fun, because we'd call him Brag Pitt.
Brag Pitt, right.
Yeah, that'd be a good nickname. But he doesn't do it. He doesn't. No, so we can't.
He's such a sweet guy.
What was that, we are here, we're gonna go back, but we're gonna go forward. So, Fincher, I have this enormous fear. A, I love him as a director.
Me too.
Every movie he makes, I like. Even the ones that are less successful, I'm like, there's a math to these things.
He just has a vision. Yes. And he's very clear, very technical.
Now I'm the type of person, I get insecure. easy. If you support me, I'll do better, and better and better. The more you say, good job, I'm a good job junkie. If you start, no, this, this, now, I'll start losing confidence.
So I've had this enormous fear of just the notion of working with him and having to do like 30 takes. To me, it feels like it would destroy.
No, no, no. Tell me. That's not even how it is. That's not how it is. He's looking at things that ain't got to do with you.
He looking at the leaf behind your head. It's not about you. And he will tell you, we worked with a lot of elders on that movie and they're not as spry as they used to be.
The hearings diminished.
Talking and trying to hit the mark. It was a challenge. And so he would come over to me and he would just be like, it's not you. We just need her to hit.
You just have to be patient. Well, that's nice. As long as he would, let me in on that, I could keep my confidence.
Oh, come on.
Absolutely. He's not an evil man. He's a perfectionist. And so am I. Shit, if you give me 50 times, well, I don't actually need 50 times.
No, I think we can get it in three or four with you.
Maybe two.
It was an amazing experience. But see, I have this ability to read my director's cuts. I know when I'm close, how they say cut, I can tell.
Oh, I got you.
You know what I mean? Cut.
Some directors have a, that's it.
You know, like I can tell.
And I don't watch the monitor. I live in between scenes. I don't have to stay the character. I literally can be bawling my eyes out. And they yell cut.
And I'll be like, anyway, so last night.
They got a 30% off thing going on over there.
Really? Seriously, I'm usually playing a game. I do that on purpose. They used to talk about me all the time on Empire, because whenever they yell cut, I would go to my game and play my game. Cookie was a lot.
I don't want that bitch's problems. I got my own. I was a young mother when I came out here. So when I would go to work and come home, he had homework. I got to feed him.
We got to take a bath. So I had to leave it.
And that's an important part of your story. So 19?.
When I had him, no, I was 24..
Oh, 24..
I was 24.. I was still in college, though. I was in my junior year when I had him at Howard.
Okay. Was Howard just the greatest?
It was the best.
Everyone I've ever interviewed that went there had like the time of their life.
You know, I had a friend ask me yesterday, did you pledge? And I was like, no. For some reason, I didn't feel like I needed to pledge. I was at the Mecca. Like that is the pledge.
I'm already in the family, in the brother sisterhood. I'm already there.
Yes. We don't even have a chat.
H-U-U, no. I have it.
I have it all. Right, right, right. You're on the inside already. I'm on the inside. Okay, so you get pregnant.
I'm guessing it wasn't planned.
No, it wasn't planned at all.
Oh, right, right.
Who wants to get pregnant while they're in college?
I don't even have a job yet. Listen, that's my assumption, but I'm open to being wrong. Yeah, no.
It just happened.
It just happened. Probably sex precluded it, but yes, it happened.
You know, actually, I woke up. I felt a little indigestion. And my son is the second coming of Jesus.
So now we're juggling some stuff, though. Yeah. You deliver in your senior year?
The end of my junior year. Actually, when I turned in my last term paper, I went into labor right after. I guess he was like, get me out of here, because I stayed up like 24 hours finishing this huge project. I finally finished it and I waddled it. The next thing, you know, the contractions came and I was like, oh, he's coming early.
He waited, though, for you to finish that.
But he still came early. He came like three weeks early.
Oh, no kidding.
Oh, I stressed him the hell out. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
He wanted out. I wanted out. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Final exams.
Who is this crazy lady? I need to see her face to face.
How quickly do you move after graduation?
About a year later, because I graduated in 95 and I didn't quite have a plan. I have this baby now, so I'm not single anymore. I just can't pack my bag and go to New York. I had to strategize. I knew I had to make money.
Like I'm a worker, bee. I'm going to put food on the table. The light bill is gonna be paid. The rent is gonna be paid. I know how to hustle.
I know how to work.
Well, my favorite is. you were working as a secretary in the Pentagon in the morning. And then at night you're singing on the Spirit of Washington. Talk about two opposites. Secretary of the Pentagon.
It's as buttoned up as it gets. And then singing on a boat at night.
And school in the middle. And a kid. And then a kid to go home.
That's wild.
But I had so much support. Ms. Hull, may she rest in peace, who babysat me in elementary school was still babysitting when I had.
Can I mention that 80% of the people you've mentioned, you've also had to say rest in peace. And I'm almost nervous. you know my name now. Ah.
You know, an inordinate amount of dead people. No.
They're just older.
Everyone, she says, is like rest in peace. I love you. No, no, no. You keep going back.
You're like we're going back.
Exactly.
Rewind.
Okay, okay. So some people are still alive. But okay. So you've had some help.
I had some help. And I just thought that was beautiful because she took such great care of me. I even called her my grandmother. And her granddaughter, we were like play cousins in school. Her mother and my mother worked at Woodward and Lothrop.
Oh, okay. And so that's how she was like, oh, my mom babysits. You should have her. And so I was integrated into that family. And then to become a young mother in college, trying to make my dreams come true.
And she's like bring that baby over here. I could rest because I knew my baby was safe.
And being loved.
Loved and nurtured and fed and just, oh, everything just worked out. And I was making good money. So I started on the Spirit of Washington. I graduated. Even how I got the job at the Pentagon, my stepmother worked in the library where they had all the secret documents.
Where the plane hit. It destroyed the library.
Let's add on your fucking birthday.
Yeah, on my birthday.
Yeah, what a birthday.
What a birthday. Yeah, I can't go to the store on my birthday. You can not get carded. And they'll go, oh no, no.
Can you ring up my wine and bananas, please? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
We don't need to go down this traumatic.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, they really fucked up your birthday for you. No, not really.
Not really, because we gained angels. We gained angels.
I have such a beautiful perspective.
Well, because it's all how we perceive things is how we live. I hate that that happened. I would never want that to ever happen to any human on Earth. Life is so precious. But if it happened, we gotta make the best of it.
The people that passed would want us to.
Also, a lot of this is heading back to framing, which I love. It's just like, how do you think about it? And one of the main topics that comes up in my house, raising two young girls often, is, are you the victim in this story or are you the hero of this story? And so if you're the hero of the story, then angels join you. And if you're the victim of the story, then the world's just conspiring to destroy you.
So another thing you can pull back often and just ask yourself a very simple question like, am I the hero in this story? I'm telling, or am I a victim? Because I certainly would prefer to be the hero in the story.
Absolutely the hero.
Yeah, you gotta be the hero in your story.
Kids wanna look up to heroes. Life is hard for everybody. I don't care who you are. It doesn't come with a golden rule book. Follow these rules and the world will open up to you.
You should want to be the hero. You can't wallow in the muck. It will consume you.
Take a couple days, feel your feelings.
Feel all the feelings. Ask God why I dropped to your knees. Get mad, scream if you have to. Get it out of your system, because, guess what? You were blessed enough to have breath this morning.
Some people didn't make it. You said, I said a lot of RIPs. You know what I'm saying? A lot of people didn't wake up this morning and the fact that you did, you have a chance to become the hero.
Yeah. Yeah, but you have to remind yourself of it.
Yeah, you must.
Because we all start feeling like the victim.
Oh, yeah. Baby boy got me from feeling like the victim. My work heals me a lot. I still have a therapist, but.
Well, you keep getting flashes of lightning. that would contradict even your story if you were trying to tell it. Really?
How so?
Baby boy. Oh, yeah. Hustle and flow. Benjamin Button. They keep popping up hidden figures.
You could be telling yourself any story, but the dad is gonna slap you in the face. sometimes. Like, no, I keep getting hit by lightning. There's a grace for me. Good things happen to me.
Absolutely. Good things happen if you wake up in your right mind and you got a roof over your head, you got clothes, you got heat. That right, there should be enough. Yeah.
I wish we were wired that way, yeah. But tell me why baby boy.
Because for so long, when I was in a tumultuous relationship, you know, at a very young age, like Yvette was in that movie, I played the victim. He did this to me, he hit me, ah. But what he didn't do was tie me to a radiator and hold a gun to my head. I wasn't a prisoner. I was a prisoner in my mind.
When I got that script, it was a hard read because I had to face the girl in the mirror who had thought she was a victim all these years. And I would remember picking up, and it was this one scene where she has this dream that Jodie dies and she has to go down the aisle and see him in the casket. And I'll never forget that day, when we were filming. Cuba, Gooding Jr. was there on the set visiting and John kept going in close up.
I was wailing because I would have dreams like that about my son's father. So when I was reading the script, I got chills and I had to walk away because I was too close.
Your son's father did get shot in 2003..
Yes, murdered, stabbed from head to toe. Hit every major artery in his body. It was a conflict.
This was a personal.
It was personal.
Baby Boy's two years before that.
I had done Baby Boy, because he died when he was 34, on his birthday. I'll never forget, I called John and I said, John, the dream came true. He was like, what? He knew exactly, what I was talking about. Because we would have those talks.
So in that scene, I had wailed, and wailed because this was a dream that I had so many times in real life. The dream had come true. Not really.
No, I know what you're saying.
My body recognized it.
You knew it was coming somehow.
You knew this was gonna be an experience, probably loving this person.
You always get a premonition. Especially if you're a spiritual person and you're an empath, you feel things. And I remember the last time I saw him, I was like, he's not gonna live long. But I'm thinking he'll die early, like 50, something. And this was the last time I saw him.
That's what I said in my mind. I had a chill.
And you weren't together anymore.
No, we hadn't been together in years. I mean, I had been out in LA for nine years. Marcel was nine.
But I would imagine, if I'm you, I'm already raising a black son in America. And now I'm raising a black son in America who doesn't have a dad.
Well, you know, that's a fear in our community. Black women with our men, especially with the rate that cops are having these altercate. It's like-.
It's a realistic outcome.
You don't expect it. Of course, you're not gonna invite that energy in, but it's something that always lives in your subconscious when they leave the house, when you're not with them.
The incarceration rate's above 10% for a certain age group. The murder rate, these statistics add up.
I don't tack it like that. I don't put numbers to it. But what I do is I pray over my son. I pray over him. My grandmother prays over him.
We got a praying grandmother who has seen some things. Every time I talk to her, she's like, I pray for each and every last one of you. And she makes my son's face light up because he has these deep dimples and she always calls him the beauty dance. His whole face lights up. You guys made me cry.
I don't like it here. That's okay.
That's our goal. We went to the Barbara Walters School of Interviewing. Clearly.
Oprah Winfrey interns here.
If you didn't cry, you didn't come here. Right.
But it's real, it's real. And we get so many different types of stories of people who come in here, but this is a very specific one. Yeah. And it's important for people to remember that these are things you are carrying, that other people aren't.
Yeah, a lot of parents are really worried what school their kid will get into. Exactly. That's the primary fear. A lot of other parents are worried that their sons will make it to retirement. You know, they'll be alive.
It's so many things to worry about as a black parent, because it's not even just the law. Like what happens in school, black and brown kids are being punished more rigorously than the white kids. They step out of line just an inch. The punishment never matches the crime. It's so many things to worry about.
Yeah.
And so you just have to have faith. And I just know that my son is gonna make it. I speak all good into him because my dad did that to me. The fact that I'm here is a miracle, because when you're in an inner city school and it's a public school, you are in the pipeline to prison, period. You're forgotten about, you don't have the proper books, you don't have the proper staffing, you are set up to fail.
You have all the teachers that have been kicked out of the different districts, but can't be fired and just get moved to that school.
Yep, it's so many obstacles and red tape.
Well, let me be clear. There's obviously a ton of brilliant, beautiful teachers, but also that is the pipeline. Yeah.
My black cousin, Jolen, is a principal of a public school, so I'm proud of him.
Amazing, yeah.
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