#1955 - Cliff Gray
2023-03-15 02:38:47
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Hello, Chris.
What's up, man?
Nice to meet you in person, you too. We've been chatting back and forth online for quite a while now.
Yeah, man, you know, it's funny, I was looking at it. I think it's been like five or six years since our first like interaction.
How did you get involved being a hunting guide? What's your path to that?
Yeah, man, so I guess it's a long story, you know? I grew up in a rural area, my dad was a cattle rancher. And then he did a little outfitting when I was a kid. And then, well, it's kind of a long story, man, because I thought this was normal when I was a kid.
But when my dad was an adult, he was a cattle rancher and then he went back to vet school. And so he actually left outfitting and cattle ranching and pursued that. And that was when he was, like, in his 40s, you know? And so that was my first exposure to, you know, being an outfitter or guiding was through my father. And then, honestly, man, like, growing up, I hunted all the time.
I've been obsessed with, you know, hunting since I was 10 12 years old. And then I went and kind of did a more traditional, I guess, lifestyle. I went to school, went to undergrad, went to business school, and then I worked in finance for a few years. And we can get deep into, like, why that didn't last.
Maybe you can help us explain why the banks are failing right now?
I don't know, man, it's been so long since I've been in that world.
What a different contrast, though, the contrast between that world and the world that you live in now.
Dude, it's crazy to think about because I still know people that, you know, are finance guys. my brother's a finance guy.
Does he live in hell? He can't be happy.
Yeah, yeah, he's doing all right because he doesn't, you know, he doesn't—all the investment strategies that he's doing, for the most part are like hedge type of strategies, but he's doing okay. But yeah, it's a different—it's a different world, man.
It's definitely a different world.
Yeah, yeah. And I always look back on my path and I think, like, Well, did I choose?—?you know, did I choose the right thing? I don't know, but I'm happy, so I guess, you know.
If you're happy, you chose the right thing, but no one—there's no right thing. There's just like life, life and decisions, right?
This idea that you're going to—like, Oh, I wish I could do it differently, Well, you definitely can't, so don't wish that. There's no way you can do it differently unless you have a fucking time machine.
And even if you have a time machine, you will already have the knowledge of what happens if you do it wrong. So if you go back and try to do it right, who knows how you're going to fuck that up?
Yeah, yeah, sure.
Like, it's not life that's—imagine living your life, knowing what's going to happen. If you do it, certain ways like that would be a terrible way to live like you'd be just—you would never be in the moment.
You'd be constantly filled with this anxiety of making sure that you don't do the thing that you have already done right. So that you could live your life in a different way. I mean, I can imagine if, like, you know, you run a red light and crash into a car and like, Oh my God, how could I stop that from happening again?
I have to make sure I don't do that again. Sure, things like that, yeah, that makes sense.
Yeah, but like a whole life path, yeah, yeah, yeah, like, change your whole life, yeah.
Like, I wish I did it a different way. Well, you definitely didn't, so keep going.
Right, and man, life's so like, life's so path-dependent, you know, and that you get—you know, you choose certain things. And there's probably like a million different ways it could go. And that was like, for me, there was a point in my life when I was doing finance, I was a trader when I was a young guy.
And you know, there's just kind of a moment where I'm like, Man, dude, I just want to do something else. And then you start down that path and it just—it leads you in wild places, man.
Yeah, well, literally for you. yeah, yeah, yeah.
For sure, dude, look at me right here where I'm at right now like you would never. —I would have never imagined this in my wildest dreams, dude.
That's funny, but I meant wild places like the wild.
Like the woods. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
That too, both things, both things are kind of wild.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So what did? —how did you make this choice to, like, get off the path? Because for a lot of people, I think one of the problems with the path is. You get married, you get a house, you have kids, you have responsibilities, and then you're stuck. Because you really can't change careers. Because you have so many dependents, there's so many people depending upon you, you have so many responsibilities.
You have to kind of just suck it up and keep doing this thing that you don't enjoy for your family.
Yeah, so to answer that question, man, I think I have to be a little humble about it, Joe, because I came from a family including my wife when I met my wife. Man. Like, I was a guy that was well-educated and looked like a guy that was going to be on. Like a traditional path to, you know, to great success as a finance guy. And that's when I met my wife and then I, like, I tricked her man because I switched it up on her, you know?
But she stayed with me the whole time and so I got to give her that. But also my family too. Man, like you can imagine, like, you know, my parents, you know, wanted me to get a great education. I mean, my family, man, like, basically lived the American dream.
Like none of them—they didn't grow up wealthy, nor did I, but they kept me comfortable. And then, you know, they got great success and they wanted—or, you know, they got success through hard work and they wanted to see me. You know, have a path of like, you know, go to Wall Street, go be an attorney, go do something like that, because that seemed like the easy path, I think in their mind.
And it seemed to make sense, and they were giving me that opportunity. But when I decided not to do that, man, not one time have my parents, or my brothers, for that part, said, like, Dude, you're doing—you're being an idiot, you know what I mean? Like, when I told them like, Hey, I'm going to buy. —so essentially, I bought an outfitting business that had been, you know, pretty much run into the dirt, you know?
And it was just federal permitting, where I could expand into a bigger, you know, guiding business in Colorado. When I told them I was going to do that, like I was quitting my job at the time, I had transitioned working for a wealthy family who treated me awesome. But when I said, Hey man, I'm going to go be an outfitter. My parents were like,—I mean, my dad was like, sounds awesome, you know? my brother was like, Sounds awesome.
I can't—and I don't think that everybody grows up in a family that's that supportive of it. So I don't want to say that like, I, you know, did it all. —like, I'm just a guy that just said, Hey, I'm going to do something cool and independent. It was what I wanted to do and I had support, man, so I can't—.I can't—.
Well, that's very fortunate.
Yeah, yeah.
That's very fortunate. So what? —how did you? —so if you're in the middle of this world, this financial world, how did you make that transition? like, what were the steps involved in making the transition? Did you just immediately up and quit and just figure out how to get a job as an outfitter, or were you already doing some outfitting?
Yeah, so I've been in—I mean, all through my childhood, you know? And then, even when I was an undergrad in school, I hunted all the time. And I had done a bunch of guiding and I was exposed to—and the other thing for my type of outfitting and guiding. I had been exposed to livestock and horses and mules my whole life. And that's a big part of, like, wilderness outfitting is. You've got to be familiar with. You know how to pack mules, how to pack horses, how to ride horses, you know, up in the mountains. Because that's a huge proportion of what I—what I did, just to get into remote areas.
So, you know, not to dive, like, into the depth of my childhood. But I was exposed to that, you know, the first 20 years of my life where, you know, I had that skill set. So that's—that's the first part of it, and then, you know how I actually mechanically did it. I mean,—so just to give you some context, me and my brother start. —When I was young, out of business school, me and my brother started a financial company. And it changed in a bunch of different ways. And he still operates it. But when I was, I think I want to say, like, 22, 23, I started working for our biggest client.
And he was a phenomenal guy and I was doing more like family wealth management for him. And literally Joe I was. —I was just kind of struggling day to day with being. —I always wanted to be in the outdoors and I wanted to go do something else. And I literally just walked into his office and I was like, Bob, like, I love—I love you man. But I got to. —I got to go, like, I got to go do something else. And I kind of had a plan to get—to go back to Colorado.
I was born in the area, you know, where I did most of my outfitting and guiding. And it's funny because he looked at me and he kind of laughed, because I think he knew it was coming. Like he knew I did. —he—I mean, he came from a different world, like he'd grown up in, you know, doing business, deals and all that. And I grew up from somewhere else. I think that's why he kind of enjoyed having me around because we would talk about, you know, our different backgrounds and stuff.
But he was just like,—well, the first thing he said is like, Cliff, I'm just going to ask you one time, man, can I give you more money?
And we'd talk about it, man. He's like, All right dude, go for it.
Well, that's great.
So literally, like, a week later, me and my wife, we moved to Colorado, and I had a—.
Oh, what a supportive wife.
Yeah, dude.
That's awesome.
Yeah, I—she's been epic the whole way.
So how did you go about starting and getting clients? So if you're starting an outfitting business, you're a young guy, you're leaving the financial sector and you're going and starting and getting clients. How do you go about making that happen?
Yeah, so part of how that process worked for me is when I got to Colorado, I started doing some packing and guiding. This is,—I mean, this is after I worked in finance. So I took, like, you know, kind of a—most people would say, a step back in my career, you know? So one day I was like, looking at financial models and trading and that sort of thing.
And then later, I was like helping guys pack elk out of the wilderness on mules, you know, that sort of thing. So I started getting exposed to it that way again, and then what I did was I started just looking for a business to buy. And so you have to—there's—when you're operating in the wilderness areas, you've got to have federal permits. So I got all that figured out.
I bought a business and then it's just like hand-to-hand combat, man. Like, I mean, the first year that I was guiding and outfitting, I think I had, you know, maybe like a dozen clients or something like that. The last year that I outfitted, I had like north of 200 clients. You know, wow.
So it's just hand-to-hand combat. And then, you know, as you learn an area—and we can get into the nitty-gritty details of it. But these wilderness areas, there's no roads in them, man. So you know, you're talking about hundreds of thousands of acres, and you're talking about elk that are pretty heavily pressured. I mean, it takes years, just the grind of, like, learning the area.
And so over time, just like just, you know, step by step, man, and then I started to get good guides working for me over the years. And we, you know, we all just got where we learned the area, you know, along the way. And then, I mean, the reality is, the last three or four years it was never a problem booking people, we were always booked, you know?
That's how that world is in a lot of ways, like once you get established and you keep people happy,—.
And it's like, sort of word of mouth, Yeah, you stay booked. Hey, I went with Cliff, it was great, he knows how to get there.
Yeah.
What you do is fascinating to me because it's such a—it's one of the more interesting kinds of hunting. Where you go really deep in with animals, you know, you bring in mules or horses, yeah, and you go very, very deep in to find these animals.
And you know, I think most people on the outside that think about hunting, they don't really understand how grueling it is. How unbelievably difficult it is to get, you know, 15, 20 miles in.
Yeah.
And then, if you do shoot an animal, to get that animal out is an unbelievable struggle.
Yeah.
And if you're talking about public land, it's really one of the best ways to find elk, or to find really good elk.
Right, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I mean, you have to. —in a lot of these areas—.I mean, people think about Colorado, Joe, and they think so. I hunted what technically would have been the—they say. The White River elk herd is the largest elk herd in the world, right? So you have that perception that, oh, okay, well, you go there, you go into the flat tops, or you go into the surrounding forest, you know, forest service property.
And you just put your backpack on, get off the road and there's going to be elk everywhere. Well, I mean, it's a ton of habitat, and the thing about a lot of that country is all the habitat's good. You know, you can go other places and they've got elk, but you know, only 10 of the actual habitat is going to hold elk, right? Well, the flat tops are, you know, these big chunks of space in Colorado.
I mean, it's all good elk habitat, you know, until you get massive amount of snow that limits the feed for elk. I mean, elk could be everywhere. So what I'm getting to is they get crazy dispersed. And the only way to get into a lot of these areas is either backpacking, you know, on your foot hiking, on your feet hiking.
Or, you know, you've got to pack in with horses and mules.
Do you guys go in and set up a wall tent?
Yeah.
And then are you there for weeks or months at a time, like, how do you do it?
Yeah, so if we're talking elk, the elk is a species. Almost all of that was out of wall tent camps and we packed those in now. I did a fair amount of sheep and goat guiding, too.
Most of that we did out of backpacks. Just because a lot of the habitat that mountain goats and sheep live in, it's not really conducive to packing with horses. Just because you end up getting above timberline, and there's just some logistical reason. A lot of times, it's just better to backpack on them, but on Elk, it's almost always so you're packing your camp with horses and mules, and then you're coming back in.
Sometimes you'll hunt off foot, you know, if the camp's in a situation where you can cover ground on foot and hunt, then you'll do it that way. But a lot of times, you'll actually bring horses back in and hunt a horse back, too.
Taking care of horses If you've got 15 horses and mules in camp, 12 miles back in the wilderness, it feels like going back in time, man.
Honestly, Joe, by the time I sold my main business 18 months ago, by the time I sold it, the majority of my crew was Amish. Really, yeah.
Amish.
Yeah.
How did you find these guys?
Dude, they just.
Because they don't use electricity, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So we can get them online, can you get them online? Do they cheat?
So yeah, yeah, dude, I got some Amish buddies that I love, man. I don't know, like Mark, if you're listening, man, and you probably shouldn't be listening because you're amish. But no. So the answer to your question, man, is. It just depends on what church they're from and the rules that they have established and what they're doing. So if it's for business, a lot of them can use email.
Really, yeah.
Oh, what a hack.
Yeah.
That's ridiculous, that you're not Amish, that's the whole thing you can't use, fucking email.
Well, here's the deal. So, yeah, so they, you know, I'm not an expert at them, but I became very good friends with some of them, you know, because, I mean, I had some of them work for me for four or five years. And, man, there's some things about them that are absolutely amazing.
You know what I mean?
Hardworking people.
Hardworking is an understatement, man. And the other thing that's wild about them is I had a lot of very young Amish guys come work for me. And we can get into the details of that.
So they weren't technically amish yet.
Oh, was it the Rump Springer thing?
Yeah, they would be kind of in that process.
People don't know. They have, like a time period, an indefinite time period where they're allowed to just run around and party and do drugs and sleep around. And then they have to come back to the church if they want to.
Right, and when they came out to my place, they didn't do any of that stuff other than work, you know, but wink. But anyways, they would come out.
And what I noticed, man, is if you take an 18-year-old Amish guy and you're just doing stuff around. Like ranch. Because, you know, we were outfitting and guiding a lot of time, but we also had to manage the livestock and we had kind of a ranch that we had to take care of. Those guys at 18, they know a ton because they've already been working for seven years, you know what I mean, they know how to frame a door.
You know, they could show up to my place, Joe. And they're wearing sandals and shorts. And you're thinking, like, this guy's never been around livestock, and you bet, Hey, man, go grab that mule and saddle it. Every single one of them knew how to do it because they grow up catching horses and putting them on a buggy every day.
So it's pretty.
It's just wild that they learn all these skill sets that, you know, really early on. So, in some ways, like, I don't, you know, from an education standpoint, none of them had a hard time communicating with me. Or, you know, we always could get through all that.
Maybe they didn't have as good a spelling, or they didn't have as good algebra skills or something because they missed out on some of that education. Maybe. But I can tell you from a work ethic and like a hands-on skill set, they're amazing, man.
Yeah, that's an education, too. It's interesting because we only want to think about education in terms of like things. You can use in the corporate world, or you can use in the business world. But the reality of education is you're learning things and they learn so many things. I'm sure that the average person who works in an office is never going to understand, right?
Take an average guy who works over at Google and say, Hey, man, go put a saddle on that mule.
Yeah.
And they're like, What the fuck are you talking about, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's a learned skill, and it's a learned skill that has a diminished value in our world. But in your world, in the world of outfitters, it's a very high value.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, and the thing about their education too, it's like the homeschooling, I'm sure. It varies wildly.
Yeah, and that's why I don't mean to make a judgment on them.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're homeschooling their kids and some of them it's just like regular homeschooling, right? I've met some homeschooled kids that are phenomenal.
They're, like, really interesting kids, but the parents did a great job of giving them a very nuanced education and then also committing them to activities. So they interacted with a lot of kids on a regular basis, they just didn't go to school during the day with kids. And it's like, if you have that kind of time and that kind of commitment, and maybe you're just not very happy with the regular school system.
Right, people used to think that it was a bad idea to homeschool your kids, but during Covid, I think a lot of people kind of opened their eyes. First of all, a how difficult it is, but also that there's a value to being there while your children are learning things. So you can kind of communicate with them and go through, especially if you have an expertise in something.
I used to, my young starters used to do martial arts and it was kind of like a mixed martial arts class. And I would go with them to mixed martial arts class. And sit on the sideline. And then a couple of times some stuff came up and I said to the instructor, I said, Actually, you shouldn't really do it that way. Yeah, because, like, they weren't, you know, as a black belt in jujitsu, I'm like, you're actually exposed.
You're going to get your back taken.
Like, this is a very vulnerable path. Like, let me show you the difference. And so I'd go on the mat with them and show them the next thing. I know I'm doing it with my daughter and I'm having her do it, I'm working with little kids.
It's really exciting, it's fun to be able to teach your kids something and then they love that, you know, something that they can learn and it gives them pride. So, like these people that are learning from their families and from their community. It's a completely different way of life, but it's probably a more healthy way of life than the average person experiences. Just going to a regular, mundane, sort of, you know, very regimented, traditional school system.
Yeah.
No, I think that's for sure the case.
But the electricity thing is ridiculous.
Well, you know, it's funny. I'll tell you about a conversation I had with one guy that I consider a pretty good friend. And I'll be honest with you, the Amish. From what my observations, they don't make a real strong effort to have, like, close relationships with people outside of the community. At least I always felt that way, but one individual, I would say, is a very good friend of mine.
And I asked him, like, Well, dude, like, what it seems like? So it seems like like, where do you? where do you stop the technology? where do you start? And he actually had a rational, rational explanation.
He said, Look, man, like, we make these judgments, and I think a big part of it is we're just trying to judge. Like, we know the value of having a certain pace of life and these technology judgments are based on that. We want to be able to still, you know, succeed, feed our families. Because they still got to deal with, like, the realities of, you know, they got to buy land, to have their farms, all that stuff. But he's like, Look, it's all about pace of life for us.
So if we look at a technology and it's going to change that dynamic, then, you know, certain churches may choose not to do that. So I'm with you, man. Like, there's there's odd things that they do, but I kind of get that explanation too.
I kind of get it, but it's just weird. They have that electric electricity loophole.
Yeah.
Mail loophole What does it say? Word Processor A new word processor with more memory and more speed. May specifically for the plain people, by the plain people.
I don't know this is what it comes up in a few advertisements for this, it's called the classic seal, but is it? The advertising is for Amish because it's calling the plain people?
It's being sold in rural. Yeah, look at that. Look for Jaeger, Shippensburg, Pennsylvania.
Hold on, So what is it here?
It's a, it's a word processor, but it's not electrical. Oh, this one does.
Yeah.
Oh, that's. But the last one that looked like it was just it was. It looked like, what is that? I mean? Like, what is powering that fucking thing?
It's got USB floppy, what? no modem, no phone port, what?
Nothing fancy, not just a locked computer, no modem, no phone port, no internet connection.
No outside programs, no sound, no photographs, no games and no gimmicks. Nothing fancy.
Just a workhorse for your business high end word processing, typing tutor, auto spell check, auto word fill.
What year is this from 2008? I think, Oh, wow.
So a lot of this kind of stuff where they kind of work around, like, kind of work around the limitations that they're.
That's funny, look at the fucking horse and buggy on the street there, Jamie, that shit is so annoying. If you're ever in rural Pennsylvania and you get stuck behind one of those guys like, Oh, Christ, I remember. Thomas said that. Their cell phone usage, though, is kind of common.
Yeah, that's a fucking cheating move.
I think, I think that's how dare you?
I think that's pretty much like standard now.
Well, I guess they'd have to have a phone line. If you're going to have a phone line, why wouldn't you have a internet line or a cell phone line? Rather, yeah, my parents used to work in, used to live in Harrisburg, so I used to see those folks.
When you drive to them, you also drive through the fucking, the areas where they raise cattle. It was the worst smell, you know?
Oh, where the Amish were?
It only was Amish. No, it wasn't anything to do with Amish, it was just cattle raising, okay?
I think that was like, I don't know whether it was factory farming, what kind of farming.
It might've been like, the I know they, uh, they feed a lot of silage, you know, like, you know, processed feed, feed. That's been basically fermenting. And that's what that smell is a lot of the time.
Oh, really, yeah, that makes sense, cause it wouldn't be the cow itself.
Yeah, do you know what silage smells like?
No, I don't.
So a lot of times when you're driving, you'll see like, uh, you'll see like tarps, you see like there'll be cattle there. You see it by dairies. A lot of times, there'll be cattle there, and then you'll see like these, these tarps laying out. And what that is is, they've got hay underneath it and they ferment it and it's silage and.
Then they feed it to the cattle, and it's the fermenting on purpose to give them more, um, probiotics.
Yeah, I think so, I'm not an expert about on it, on it, Joe, but um, I think part of it is to make it more palatable. So they can, I think, just consume enough calories, and then there, I'm sure there's some nutritional aspect to it too. I'm just, I just don't know the details of it.
That makes sense that it would. That's why it would stink so bad, cause I thought it was just death in the time when I was driving to see my folks. I think it was the nineties, pretty sure it was the nineties. So, like, I wasn't that hip to that stuff anyway. I just thought it was just a stinky, dead area where they've raised cows.
Yeah, no, I hear you.
But Christ, it stunk. I couldn't imagine living there. Cause the problem with, uh, all factory senses is you only detect changes in smells.
Oh yeah.
So you just get accustomed to your neighborhood stinking.
Yeah.
Yeah, well, it's really weird.
It's hilarious you say that, cause you get used like I got so used to the smell of horse shit over when I was outfitting. Like, you get so used to it. You don't even know it's around, man, right?
But you know, if you're in a wall tent camp and you're hunting elk for like seven or eight hours? And it's snowing, it's or it's half snow, and then it, it melts, so it's like, muddy. You got all these horses tied up, I mean, horseshits everywhere, man, it's in every lead rope.
It's in everything and you don't realize. You know, you're out there, you know, out there feeding the horses in the dark. And you go into the cook tent, and you know, you start eating. And you, you don't really. You know, you got a horseshit on your hands. You just get, you get used to the smell.
It's not a scary shit.
That's not really, yeah.
It's like, it's processed hay.
Yeah.
It's like, you know, it's logically, you know, it's sort of gone through the system of the horse. It's not like, dog shit, it's fun.
Isn't that funny? Because all all like predator shit is kind of like off-putting, Yeah, yeah, it's rotten meat.
Yeah, dude, yeah, you see like lion shit or.
Like, when you see deer shit, you pick deer shit up, yeah.
No big deal.
It's like, little balls, yeah, yeah, it's nothing.
Yeah, like, my little, my little boy. If he picks up, he picks up an elk turd or whatever. It's like, Oh, like, Wyatt, that's, you know, that's, that's an elk turd. But man, if he tried to pick up like a bear shit or something, I'd be like, Ah, right?
We'd also worry about parasites.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Dude, I think that might be, I mean, don't you think that's maybe why we're so prone to not like, like, be a little like, off-putting, off-put by it more?
Perhaps right, the smell, cause it's interesting how animals approach the smell. Like I have a golden retriever, and when he finds, I have a fox that lives in my neighborhood and he comes into my yard.
It's pretty cool. I got a video of him barking in my yard. It's such a weird animal, They have such a weird noise. Um, anyway, shit's in my yard and my dog finds his shit and rolls in it every time.
Like, for him, it's fucking perfume, so he, he gets it like all over his neck and stuff.
Yeah.
Like, obviously it's not off-putting for him, right? Like I think for him. I don't know what it is that dogs are doing if they're disguising their smell with this shit like.
I don't know what they're doing.
They do the same thing with dead stuff.
Yeah, what are they doing?
I don't know why that, why that is.
It's weird, cause they all do it.
You know, when they do it, you notice like, they're like, gleeful when they do it. Oh yeah, like, love it, yeah, love it.
He comes in with just shit smeared all over his neck.
I'm like, dude, yeah.
You know, so obviously it's not off-putting for them, but humans don't roll around in.
It, no, yeah.
Not the average.
Yeah, yeah, that's, that's an enigma, man, you'll have to get an expert on in that regard.
I don't even know what they would be able to, how they'd figure it out. There's no exact known cause of this. Wolves do it, too.
Ooh, oh, okay.
I think wolves do it to disguise themselves and pray, but that that's the best answer I found. Well, then it makes sense that dogs do it, cause dogs are just bitch ass wolves.
Yeah, exactly. um, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, you know, they like, you know, they're trying to, like, put, get their scent, um, covered or something.
Yeah, so if an animal's downwind, it's just like, Oh, I smell shit.
Yeah.
It's not like, Oh my god, I smell a wolf.
Yeah, yeah, sure.
It would overwhelm the smell. Yeah, well, what do you think about? They're bringing wolves to Colorado? Do you have an opinion on that?
Yeah, man, I, uh, yeah, I got lots of opinions about it. I mean, so it's going to happen for sure, you know? Um, oh man, we, we could, we could dive deep into this one.
It's an interesting thing.
Yeah.
So I feel like as a person who has spent some time in the woods, not nearly as much as you, but I have spent some time that. I understand what the woods are, I understand what the wild is, and I don't think most people do. I don't. I think people have a very goofy idea of what the wild is.
Right?
Like animals living in a way that they've lived for thousands of years. And you just happen to be there, and if you weren't there, it would take place exactly as you witness it.
Right?
Without you being there, it's like you have almost no influence on it. They are, they are wild.
Wolves are dominant, intelligent, calculating predators that they eradicated from the West for a reason.
Yeah, yeah, man. So I think you hit on a bunch of things that would like bring me back to my opinion on it, and that's that, a lot of this stuff, when, when. So I know they. They've basically described two different areas in Colorado where they're going to put the two, or the, uh, the two first transplants.
And one of them is, like, right in where you're not. I mean, I rode that country with a horse like all over the place. In the circle of where they're going to put those wolves is right there, so I know where they're going to put those. You know, one of the spots, I know the spot intimately, I know the wildlife there intimately.
How many wolves are they going to put in?
So my understanding is off the bat the first year, I and I I believe their goal is by December of this year. Um, it's going to be like between 15 and 30, I believe, is the first bunch. And they're going to have them in two different, two different spots. But in that, you know, in that Vale, Vale Quarter corridor, you know, up to the flat tops in there, uh, you know, so they're probably going to put 15 to 20 wolves in there. The thing, the thing that you hit on Joe, that I think kind of forms my opinion is, I mean, when you go in a man, they seem so wild, right? Like, you know, I could the flat tops. I could get on a horse and I could ride for 15, 15 hours and not see a road, you know, 10 hours and not see a road.
And they seem so wild, even to me being there. But I don't think that people realize how much, how much humans have already affected that landscape and how it doesn't matter. Like the this myth that putting wolves back in the land, that landscape is going to turn it back to some ecosystem. That was here, you know, 300 years ago. I I think it's, I think it's a figment of their imagination, man.
And the reason I say that is because I've also spent a fair amount of time in British Columbia. That seemed so much more wild to me. And let me kind of like, give you context of why that is, you know, you've. Have you ever been to Vail Colorado? No.
Yeah, okay.
Oh, I have, but not, not outside.
So, like, if you look at, if you look at the dynamic of that area. There's a huge highway that goes from Highway 70, that goes from Denver on the front range up, you know, past.
Vail into Eagle and then it kind of goes down through a big the Canyon Glenwood Canyon and kicks back into the Aspen. That all the winter range there is split by this massive highway, and then that highway has a an eight foot game fence. Along the whole whole thing. And then, you know, along that Vail valley. Where they're wanting to put put these, or where they are going to put these wolves. You know, there's, you know, 50,000 full-time residents, and you know, there's probably double that in the high season. Ski season stuff, plus you've got these huge ski resorts.
I guess what I'm getting at is when somebody tells me that the low hanging fruit to kind of rewild that areas as wolves. It's just bullshit, you know what I mean?
How is it getting passed, though?
Well, it got passed by a ballot initiative, you know, that the ballot initiative is how wolves got, you know, got to the situation they are now. And basically, what the ballot initiative did is it forced the CPW to take on this goal of transplanting the the wolves, so it wasn't the CPW's choice. And they and they, you know, there's a I don't know the exact laws, Joe, but the CPW. And that's the Colorado's Park, the Colorado Parks and wildlife, they're in charge of managing the wildlife in Colorado.
How can they put something like the transplanting of wolves? A very complex biological problem, I mean, it's you're, you're dealing with biology and wildlife. How can they put that as a ballot initiative, like, how can they put that in the hands of people other than wildlife conservation experts, wildlife biologists?
Well, I mean, the reality is, our laws, our laws allow that, you know what I mean, it doesn't make rational sense, no?
You know, it's a it's a decision that for people that are just like, Yeah, that'd be amazing. Let's put the wolves out there. Like people are going to lose their dogs, like you're going to your dogs are going to get eaten, like it's going to affect anyone who has livestock.
You're going to have a problem, whether that problem's in three years or five years, those problems are coming. Yeah, dogs are 100 going to get eaten, right?
If you have a cute golden retriever like mine, you leave them outside. Like, guess what, that dog's dead, they're going to team up on that dog and tear it apart.
Yeah.
And if you're cool with going outside and seeing wolves eat your dog, like, well, then you've made the right choice. But if you, if you're not, like, if you don't think they're going to go after low hanging.
Off to easy prey. You don't understand wolves. Talk to people that live in Alaska. Yeah, like, you know, anybody who lives in, like British Columbia, like, they have real fucking wolf problems up there.
Right, and these are wolf problems that we used to have in the West, but they eradicated them, right? I mean, I don't think it's good to eradicate them. I'm not saying that what they did was right when they poisoned horses and left at horses filled with strychnine, and, you know, and the wolves all died off. But they did it for a fucking reason.
Yeah, and that's the thing that's so crazy about, you know, back to the process of how it happened. Everybody who who wants wolves in Colorado and we can get into, you know, the depth they want them, cause that's not really clear, you know they. They just went through this whole, uh, you know, setting up the plan for the CPW.
And it. It became very clear in my mind, watching that process, that they they don't really want there to be any. You know, uh, management of wolves in Colorado either. It's going to be no, yeah, so basically....
Well, that's crazy.
Yeah, and so that that week, I think, you know, anybody rational is going to be like, look like we got to have like, a top to the population.
There's no management at all.
Well, so here's the deal is they're not. They have a draft plan, you know, for to manage the wolves. What happened is when the CPW did that draft plan. It included some discussion of wolves being lethally managed at all different stages. You know what I mean, Joe? Like, even now, if they, you know, a real problem with livestock, you know, could they be lethally managed?
But down the road, once they had, once they had hit certain population objectives, could they be hunted, right? Like that was discussed. Well, it turns out the ballot initiative basically says that wolves are a non-game species, and that was in the language of the ballot initiative.
So they can't really, they can't really now say the CPW can't really say that they're going to someday be a hundred. A hunted species in Colorado. I personally think, and I, you know, everything's like 20 20 hindsight. But even when the ballot initiative originally, you know, was out there and I always thought it was going to pass by a landslide. That's what's so crazy, cause it just barely passed. But um, I always thought, like, the problem with Colorado is it's different than these other Western states, you know, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming. Because they're going to, they're going to keep the population in line through hunting or other, you know, other methods.
But in Colorado, I don't think the politics are going to allow that, man.
Like, who knows what the top is on? You know how many there is, how much they affect the Ungulate population, you know, who, who knows, you know. But what I was going to say is what's crazy about this ballot initiative. And the bummer part about it is everybody that's going to deal with the negative consequences there. There are people that voted no in, but they're in the areas where the wolves are going to be transplanted. Everybody that voted for it, they don't have to deal with the downside.
They're living in Boulder.
Like, you, man, they're cool, like I've been around them in Canada, they're way cool. But the the problem is is every person that I've interacted with in British Columbia, you know, or even in the western states that have a fair amount of wolves. Every person is just trying to make a living on the landscape, you know, he's a guide, an outfitter, a logger or cattle ranch or whatever.
Like, he's out there living, he or she's out there, living with them and dealing with them. They're all just like, when you ask about wolves, they're like, it's just like, you know what I mean? Cause they got to deal with the negative consequences all the time.
They're a totally different kind of animal than any other animal because they act as a pack and they have some sort of intelligent communication.
They're, they're bad-ass.
They're amazing, yeah, they're cunning and crafty, and they're efficient, ruthless killers.
Yeah.
And they also surplus kill. You know, they find them like, I think it was Wyoming recently, where they found just like fucking giant pile of elk that they had trapped in high snow and just tore to pieces. Yeah, yeah.
And I don't know, like the stats on how common it is, but you know, other other predators do that too.
Cats do that.
Yeah, yeah.
But it's, you know, the difference between them is that they act as a group.
Yeah.
They're the only one of those predators that acts as a large group.
Yeah, no, and and they and their their effect, I mean, they're, they're effective. I mean, even when you talk to, I know, I know a guy in British Columbia, that's, I mean, his whole world is, his whole world is focused on trapping them. And I've sat and talked to him just about like the details, you know. Like boiling his snares, you know how he goes in and puts his snares in, you know how he goes in and checks them, like all that matter.
Boiling his snares to leave no scent.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, because they just pick up on that, that stuff, you know, they're, they're just so smart.
And they know that they're being fucked with, too.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, which, you know, it's funny because the first thing you said is there a dog, and that, I mean, you, you have dogs, you know how it is.
Like, they can figure it out, yeah.
They know things, yeah.
Yeah, for sure.
I mean, I talk to my dog like he understands certain things, right? I'm like, come on, dude, let's go outside, and he just starts going towards the door, yeah.
Oh, yeah, he knows what that means.
For sure, I can say I don't have to say it like, want to go outside? Do you want to go outside?
Yeah.
He's like, Oh yeah, let's go outside, yeah, are you hungry? and he's like, Fuck yeah, I'm hungry. I'm like, Okay, let's eat.
Like, he knows what that means.
Yeah, oh yeah.
He knows some aspects of language, sure, and you know what he is is like a really tame, docile version of a wolf.
Yeah.
A wolf is like a like. Have you ever been around a Belgian Malinois?
Yeah, I, I don't think I'm familiar.
Those are the dogs that they use in war.
Okay.
And, uh, police dogs, okay, they're like scary little meat missiles. I got you and they look at you like this.
Yeah, they're always thinking, and you can't just keep one of those motherfuckers in your yard, right? They're too smart.
They're working dogs. First of all. they climb fences. yeah, like a chimpanzee, they just go right up the fence and over it.
I mean, have you ever seen like videos of Belgian Malinois working?
I don't think I have Joe, dude, I'm trying to put, uh.
It's wild, okay, they can do shit where they leap through the air like you can't fucking believe they really can jump that high. They're like soaring through the air.
I'm talking like 12 feet in the air, sure, they run, jump off a guy's back and then leap through the air. Like, climb over walls that are like 10 feet tall just by running up the wall.
Yeah.
It's insane, it's pretty wild, that's a wolf, it's the same thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
This is a Belgian malinois.
Oh yeah, yeah, I've seen it, man.
Look at this.
I mean, that's insane.
It is nuts.
How's that dog doing that? Look at him running up the fucking wall, he's basically a monkey.
Got it figured out.
Look, he's running up a fucking tree to get to a mitt, and then he's hanging on it. It's crazy.
Man, you know, the diversity amongst dogs is wild.
It is wild, but these dogs, in particular, are bred and look how smart they are. Look, you can walk across a tightrope. Look at that. Isn't that insane?
I mean, that's fucking insane, they're so intelligent, but that's closer to a wolf.
Yeah, yeah.
Look at his ears, I mean, they're basically an athlete wolf.
Yeah.
You know?
Have you ever seen these great Pyrenees dogs that they run with the sheep? Yes, yeah, yeah, well, they're cool.
In a much different way, yeah, but they basically think they're sheep.
Yeah.
You know?
Pull up great Pyrenees dogs. Yeah, they're interesting. It's so wild that they all came from wolves and that you have so many different styles of like, the way they look.
Dude, these dogs, so there's big, big domestic sheep permits where I used to outfit, so guys running, you know? Big bands of sheep periodically in the wilderness areas and they keep these dogs with them. And these dogs are something else to run into, you know, in the night, up in the mountains or whatever, and they just protect those sheep.
Just, you know, you see these big bands of sheep like this.
And do they keep wolves off of them?
Yeah, so I've heard mixed things and this will be interesting. Because right, where they're going to put some of these wolves in Colorado? There's some pretty big domestic sheep guys that run these pyrenees, dogs, oh, Jesus Christ, and they actually. So, sheep in the wilderness are one of the few animals that are still guarded by humans.
You know, they usually have a herder with them, yeah, and a lot of them are guys from nowadays. It seems to be that most of them are from Peru, I believe. And I used to run into the guys because they've been out there living with these sheep, man, for weeks at a time.
So even though there's a language barrier, like when they see you up there, like, they want to hang out, you know, say hi or whatever.
Just happy to see people.
Yeah, they'll have, like a, they'll have a horse with them, you know, maybe, I don't know, probably five, 600 sheep, and they'll have a couple of those dogs. Wow, you know? But back to your original question is. I've heard mixed things about these dogs ability to deal with wolves, you know, and it has to do with the fact that wolves, there's wolves. So if they can draw one of these dogs off, you know, wolves can, wolves can kill them. I know I've heard, and I'm not an expert at it, but I know that some people in Wolf country, what they'll do is on the Great Pyrenees, they'll put, they'll put spike collars on them. So the, you know, the wolves can't get a hold of them because these dogs are big, like, they're a lot bigger than a wolf than most wolves.
How big are these dogs?
These, these great Pyrenees dogs.
What are they weighing about?
Dude, I'm thinking, Jamie might have to look this up, but I think they're, yeah, 150, 160, that's what I was thinking. And that's a big dog. Yeah, you know, but I don't know how well they'll do with the wolves. And man, there's stories of wolves getting into these domestic sheep and killing like, a hundred, you know, just, you know.
Yeah, fuck.
Yeah, I don't know, I don't know how that's all going to work.
It's not going to work well.
And this idea that that it's always good when you reintroduce predators like it says, who like?
Yeah.
The balance right now is pretty goddamn good. Like, I don't know what they're thinking. They just have this idea that wolves are amazing. Well, guess what, wolves are eventually making their way into Colorado anyway.
Right?
I mean, it's, it's a natural thing that's happening, yeah, and at least the way it's happening. It'll probably be more sustainable than just dropping off a patch of them in an area that has domestic animals.
Man, I Joe, I don't know why there's, I mean, I do understand why there's an obsession with them. They're beautiful and they're cool.
Oh yeah.
But I almost feel like, Are you familiar with the, uh? I believe the name of the YouTube video is why wolves change rivers.
I've seen it, but that guy, do you know, the guy who made that? Yeah, he's a fan of wilding and he wants to bring like lions to the UK.
Yeah.
Like, he's fucking insane, yeah.
He was like, like, there's no limit to this logic of this like trophic cascade idea.
Yes.
Yeah, well, what's crazy to me, man is like, so if you watch that, that that video and it's got like 50 million views on YouTube or something like that? It's narrated by a guy, I mean, it's, it's really well done, it's just cool to watch.
I mean, if you listen to the first 90 seconds, there's like, a. And the reason I bring this video up is because I actually think that this video was the start of what happened in Colorado was. A lot of people watch this and they're like, Yeah, it makes sense, you get this predator in here. It fixes all the problems, you know, with the rain.
It balances things out.
It brings everything, everything back. But in that video, man, in the first 90 seconds, there's a bald face lie. They say, I don't know what it is.
Do you want to play it? should we play it?
How wolves change rivers.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's, um, the guy behind it is is very controversial. I mean, I think it's interesting. I think it's interesting that he has such a passion towards these animals. But this guy legitimately thinks that wilding and rewilding is the way to go for everything.
Let's play.
Woo.
That's how they get you.
Plus the guy's accent, you'll see, man, it draws you in.
They're cool, they're fucking cool, beautiful.
One of the most exciting scientific findings of the past half century has been the discovery of widespread trophic cascades. A trophic cascade is an ecological process which starts at the top of the food chain and tumbles all the way down to the bottom. And the classic example is what happened in the Yellowstone National Park in the United States when wolves were reintroduced in 1995. Now we we all know that wolves kill various species of animals, but perhaps we're slightly less aware that they give life to many others.
Before the wolves turned up, they'd been absent for 70 years. But the numbers of deer, because there was nothing to hunt, had built up and built up in the Yellowstone Park. And despite efforts by humans to control them, they'd managed to reduce much. So that's the lie right there, despite efforts to be controlled by humans in Yellowstone, that that is just factually incorrect, Joe.
Yeah, it's not true at all.
No, it's not true at all in Yellowstone, so the history of Yellowstone, actually, you know, until the until, like the 60s, there was two things going on in the park when they had excess elk. Which which they, which makes sense, because what people don't realize, I mean. They were killing predators before the 60s in Yellowstone, like they were suppressing lions. In addition to the fact that they had already killed the wolves, you know, so there was predator suppression going on even in the park before the 60s.
Well, in the in the late 50s and 60s, and I might be roughly off on these dates. But the park was actually capturing elk, and they were transporting them to all the other states that needed elk, you know, because.
I think that's where they got them in California. Yeah, for Tone Ranch.
Yeah, they got them from Yellowstone, yeah, that might. That might be, man. Because most of the all the big transplants in Colorado, Idaho, like, you know, outside of the park, they were, they were Yellowstone. Genetics, you know? So I know that some of the, you know, some of the elk that ended up down on the Indian reservations and stuff, they were originally Yellowstone.
Can I ask you about that before we move on? Someone? I was hunting with this guy in Utah and he was telling me there's. There's literally two different kinds of elk. And the reason why these elk, like in the Gila mountain range, and the elk in Tone Ranch. And they're so big, is because these are yellowstone elk and that the yellowstone elk have wider bodies, more mass. They're, they're larger animals. He was like, it's like, like, you know, you have a roosevelt elk, you have a thule elk, you have a rocky mountain elk. He's like, you have a yellowstone elk.
He's like, it's a different elk.
Yeah, so I don't know specifically related to yellowstone elk, but I actually, I actually do know some people who had original Yellowstone original, so they had original yellowstone genetic elk on their place. And it's a it's a big, high fence place, owned by owned by the Natives in UH, in New Mexico.
And they actually started to bring in genetics out of Alberta, and those elk out of Alberta are way bigger than the Yellowstone elk.
So, so, so, that's interesting.
So what you're saying, I imagine, is true, Joe? I just don't know exactly, but what I have seen is there's huge different men. Like I saw a cow on this particular place I'm talking about, and it is bigger than any bull I had ever had. A client kill in the foot. Is that like when they? When we were like I, it was the the cow popped up in the, you know, in the brush. They're probably like 500 yards from us.
And I didn't, I hadn't picked up my binoculars yet. There's no way you could have convinced me that was a cow, cause it was probably, you know, it was probably, it was probably like a 750 pound cow.
Yeah, so there, so.
I've never even heard of such a thing.
Oh, yeah, they're, they're physically, they're, you know, they're physically way bigger.
But is that normal for? I mean, you're saying, this is, this is the Alberta genes?
These are Alberta genetics.
Yeah, so is that that thing? What is that? There's a um, um, a thing that happens with animals when they're in cold climates, where?
Mammals grow larger. I know what you're saying.
Yeah.
It's like the same thing between, like Southern BC moose and Yukon moose, the Yukon moose are way bigger, yeah.
Yeah, and it's also a deer, right? Like, you know, you have Coos, deer that are little tiny suckers. And then you get all the way to Saskatchewan. They're 350 pound whitetails.
Yeah, yeah, sure, yeah even.
It's called Bergman's Rule.
Is that it? It says it's named after I think that's a biology established concept called Bergman's Rule. Yeah, yeah, it's going to be larger.
To conserve heat, the rule's named after Carl Bergman, a 19th century biologist who first described the pattern in 1847. Yeah, it totally makes sense, like Texas deer are so tiny.
Oh yeah, it's really interesting, yeah.
Like, if you compared like a South Texas whitetail to like an Alberta whitetail.
Or an Idaho whitetail.
Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, it's way different.
They're a fucking giant up there.
Yeah.
Or Iowa?
Yeah, and it's not all feed related. Part of this is obviously this, yeah, this law that he talks about.
That makes sense, so I've never even heard of a cow elk being that big.
Oh yeah, man, there's for sure a regional. I mean, part of that's probably like genetics, you know, or like, you know, selective breeding of elk, too. Over time, which, you know, that does exist. There's an industry that does that.
Yeah.
It could be that these animal too, like, much like what we're talking about with California, with Tahone Ranch, you have these animals that are used to living in Montana, say, with the California Tahone Ranch. And then all of a sudden, they're living in, you know, the Tachepee mountains, and they have no winter to speak of.
Right?
Where they're deprived of food, they have food all year round now, and so they have this body that's designed to consume as much food as possible. Because.
Yeah, so they just get giant.
Yeah, yeah, and that would make sense, too. I mean, I was, you know, elk are funny. Jordan. I'm sure you've heard the stories.
Like, you hear people talking about killing wild elk, like, Oh, I killed a bull. He had to weigh like 900 pounds. Like, dude, I've, I mean, I've put a ton, quartered up, a ton of bulls in my life, and a big wild bull is, you know, 650 pounds, 700 pounds. Be a big one, you know they, they don't get as big as people.
I don't know what I mean.
But if you go to Tahone Ranch?
Yeah, they probably are. Yeah, you're probably right.
No, I've seen 1100 1200 pound elk.
Yeah, so that's, you know, that's that's 60 bigger than the Bulls that I was exposed to in Colorado.
Yeah, they're extraordinarily large.
Yeah.
Yeah, but then you see a moose and you're like, Oh my god, oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, first time I saw a moose live on the hoof walking around was in BC. Yeah, and it was like that scene in Jurassic Park. We pulled over the truck and we pulled over a truck and I stuck my head out the window.
Like, what?
Yeah.
Fuck, it was so big.
Isn't it goofy? Cause they're like a that whole depiction of them in cartoons like Bullwinkle. It kind of it kind of fits them.
Yeah.
They're just like.
They're just like.
But fucking dangerous.
Oh yeah.
The thing about them that scares me more than any other. They'll, they'll come for you, they'll go after you. Yeah, whereas, like no other deer species like, goes, Oh, you want to start some shit and they'll come over and stomp you.
And I remember, you know, it's funny, like when you're riding in the mountains with, you know, you're riding a horse. And maybe you've got like three or four mules with you. A lot of times you'll pick up off of them that they sent something before you see it. You know those because they smell something, and usually they'll start like puffing their nostrils, and a lot of times it would be moose. You know, they start, you can, I can hear them huffing, those those mules and horses that they're. What they're trying to do is they're trying to get more scent in so they can. They can be like they know exactly what it is.
You're going around a switchback or something, you can hear them huffing and sure enough, you come around the corner. And there'll just be like a bull, you know, bull moose standing there in the trail, not giving a shit, he's like, I mean.
What do you want to do?
Yeah, yeah, like, you know, you're, you didn't you? you seem like you're, you know, you'd seem like you'd be kind of like, a, you know. uh, you know. a. a big, you know.
Intimidating mass of people? yeah, intimidating animals, exactly.
Yeah, and they just like, look at you, like, you're going to have to go around, you know? So several moose, like I literally like, drug a string of mules like up the hill, like through the aspens and crashing through a bunch of crap. Just so so the moose can stand there on the trail.
I've never seen a Yukon moose on the hoof, I would love to.
I haven't either, but you see these guys that kill them and holy smokes, man.
I've watched some of those Jim Shockey videos.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
He goes up there and they have antlers that are the size of this table.
Yeah, you just see them when they glass them up and the paddles on them.
It's insane, they're so big, it's it's hard to believe that they're that much bigger, but I guess that's that Bergman's rule.
Yeah, yeah, sure.
Yeah, cause it's cold as fuck up there.
Yeah, and just genetics and everything else. But moose like Colorado is starting to get some huge moose man in my when I.
Are they shires moose?
Yeah, they're shires, but I mean, a 50 inch moose is not uncommon really. Oh wow, yeah.
Yeah, in the in the areas that, uh, that I was guiding and outfitting in, and it was cool, you know, Joe? Cause early on, when I started, we rarely saw moose, man like, almost never. Like, if you saw a cow moose. That was like, major day. You know, by the time, I, you know, 10 years later, we always saw moose and big ones. You know, do you know Adam Greentree?
I don't know him personally, I know of them.
Adam filmed a grizzly bear in the San Juan's.
Yeah, which is which is possible, man. Do you know the history of the last grizzly bear that they that they saw in there?
No, oh man.
I don't want to get the dates and stuff messed up, but it was weird it, it and I. It's just to tie onto your story. I. They said they were extinct, they weren't around, and then a bow hunter went in there. I want to say, like 15 years after, they said they were extinct. And he went in there and he got mauled by one and he came out and he's like, Look, I just killed a grizzly bear.
Yeah, I mean, I'm telling you I did, and they said, No, no way you didn't, and they went back in there with them. And sure enough, he had I got. You'd have to look up the exact story, cause I'm sure I kind of butchered it.
Here it is. In 1979, Ed Wiseman, a Colorado hunting guide, crossed paths the Grizzly Bear during exhibition expedition rather near the headwaters of the Navajo River. Wiseman was attacked and mauled.
What happened? Uh? But while he was down, he managed to fake. Is this like, what is up with his website? Oh, I see, it's just a shitty website, um. But while he was down, he managed to fatally wound the bear by hand using an arrow.
Wild.
A fucking arrow.
But look, man, so they they, they said they'd been extinct for like 20 or 30 years already.
How the fuck did they know? Here's the thing? Like, that kind of talk is so wild, like, Oh so are you? are you out there with cameras in every fucking acre of that land?
Shut up. You don't know like you should really take the word of the people that find these things out there because those people are actually there, right? How deep do the biologists go?
I mean, how often are they there? How many boots on the ground wildlife surveyors do you have that are telling you exactly what you know, how many bears there are?
Yeah.
How could you know?
Yeah, who knows? And I so cocky and like, on the on Adam's deal in the San Juans, I don't, I don't know.
He filmed it.
Yeah, right, and I've, I've seen, I've seen the videos, and I, you know, personally, I, I don't know that I could say a hundred percent either way, but I do know that. People for sure, who have seen them in northern Colorado, like across the border, seen tracks something like that.
Of course, I mean the neighboring states out there, they're next to Wyoming.
Yeah, yeah.
Wyoming has them.
Yeah, they move.
The idea that a grizzly is not going to move from Wyoming to Colorado, he knows it's not his turf.
Yeah, well, do. The thing about them is they can, people don't understand, they can roam. There's something that gets in, you know, bears heads where they will, well, not just bears.
Like, I mean, yeah, cats.
I mean, I've seen a guy or getting the shit beat out of them from this band of rams. He's been hanging around all of a sudden, he just starts moving. Man, he's just going to go find like a new place to live, and they'll travel like crazy distances. There's a there's a cool bear study, and man, I wish I knew, knew the gal's name that did it, where they call it a bunch of bears.
Yeah, and it was done, I believe in New Mexico, and it was. It's crazy to see how far these bears will move. Like, they'll they'll go to, like where they'll go, where they're denning and they'll travel. I want to say, like two 300 miles hit up an elk calving ground, and then they'll go another hundred miles. You know, for somewhere else that they like to hang out in the fall, to hit, you know, acorns or something.
So this bear's doing an insane trip, it's wild, you know? So yeah, it's. It's for sure possible.
Of course, and it's likely it means that, I mean, I trust Adam, he's just he's so knowledgeable.
Yeah, he knows.
Like, he wouldn't say, like he would just say, Oh my God, look at that black bear. Yeah, yeah, he would say it was a giant Black bear, but he's like, that's a fucking grizzly bear.
Yeah.
He was filming it through his uh, his, his, his, uh.
And he's got, like, the he's got his gun out and the whole deal, right?
Oh, that's a different one.
That's a different one, okay?
This is one that he filmed. Okay, so look at the size of that, look at it, just look at it.
What it looks like.
Sure.
So this is a I believe he's got film footage.
No, it's okay. So that is just a. But just even those photos that looks exactly like a brown bear, I mean, that doesn't look like a black bear to me.
Yeah, they get that blonde, they get that blonde, kind of, kind of shine to them.
Yeah, that looks like a fucking brown bear, man. I mean, it could be, look, it could be a massive color face bear, right? it could be.
Yeah.
They're not that good.
They when they get that go, I can't remember the term that, uh, that people use for it. But they get that golden kind of like blondness at the end of their, at the end of the hair. And I and I've seen it, I've seen, you know, we used to have a bunch of black bears in my area that have like mohawks you ever seen, like red red mohawks, yeah.
Okay, this is no, this is one, this is 100 of Grizzly Bear. But I believe this was in Idaho. Is that where it was? or Montana started in Colorado?
He's now in Montana.
He's been hunting for 28 days straight solo. But he, he actually drove to Montana, and then he had an encounter with a female. By the way, he had an he he lives in. Um, Australia, where pistols are, you know, you can't even get a fuck pistol. So someone gave him a pistol to borrow while he was out there. What he didn't know is that the rounds were the wrong round for the pistol he had, so his gun was not going to work.
So here he is pointing this gun at this grizzly bear, and if you see the video, it's fucking crazy. the bear runs up on him. Here it is, let's give it some volume.
So I drew my handgun. It's something that you carry, especially when you're by yourself. How about a handgun that works? Bitch, you live in a shitty country, it'll teach you about guns over there.
So it was just like a bluff charge. I stayed dead still, just with the pistol drawn, pointed that up. See, look at this gun.
See, see, see it.
Like it's already, it's like it's jammed, look how the the the front is sticking out.
Like the slide, yeah.
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