Choose the Hard Sacrifice That Leads to Freedom
2023-11-07 01:57:36
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Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's The Ramsey Show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create actual, amazing relationships. I am Rachel Cruz, Ramsey personality, hosting this hour with best-selling author and Ramsey personality, Dr. John Deloney, and we are here to answer your calls, and it's a free call anywhere in the country at 888-825-5225.. All right, we're going to start off this hour. Hold on.
Whoa, whoa, whoa.
It's launch day, yo.
No. It's launch day.
We'll jive right headfirst into it.
We finally have a book that's at my reading level coming out of this company, and I'm excited for it.
It's a children's book. I'm glad for what I have, so it's my kid's book that is out right now, so you can go and order at ramseysolutions.com.
I can't wait to buy them for all of my family. It's amazing. Thank you.
It's really great. All about contentment, and great for this holiday season that we're about to embark in.
I know, and George is writing these money books. I can't understand, but I can understand Lots of pictures.
Yes, baby squirrels. They ask for more and more. Baby squirrels. They gather as much as their burrows would store.
Get ready. Hey, that looks really great. It's really actually amazing.
Yes. Thank you. So, yes, I'm glad for what I have is out today.
Awesome. All right.
Let's see if Michael in New York, who's up next, let's see if Michael has any kids. Mike, Mike, Mike, Mike, Mike. Michael, do you have any children?
I got one on the way coming. Yes. Good, hang on the line.
We're going to send you a book.
I'm going to send you my new kid's book. For the new baby on the way. How far along is your wife?
Very early. It's like we're about eight weeks, nine weeks, something like that.
Oh, my gosh.
This is just now becoming real.
I'm the first baby gift. I have a feeling, Michael, that will be given to you.
Okay.
Well, hang on the line after this call, but how can we help?
So, you know, since, you know, me and my wife got married about two years ago and she's very reluctant on attacking her $120,000 student loan that she has.
Right now, she's, you know, I'm willing to help her with it. You know, I'm, you know, I'm definitely there for her to help her with it. But she doesn't want to make the steps for herself to really attack it. So I want to, you know, every time I bring it up to her, she gets, you know, a little defensive. She doesn't want to really talk about it.
So I'm just trying to get a way to get us on the same page.
Yeah. It's a great question. And I think, Michael, you know, just even the way you have kind of phrased the situation. even to us, it does feel like a his and her mentality. So, yeah, when you go to her about her debt, it can feel like an accusation, or, you know, you're wanting something that she doesn't want and it's about her stuff.
So that's where things get really messy and really, you know, yeah, I understand why she probably is feeling the way she is, because I think the mindset that you guys have, not just the student loan debt, but just in general with money and the way you guys look at this as a team sitting down and saying, hey, before, like, we're going to talk about the $120,000 student loan debt, let's talk about, like, the values of our family and our soon-to-be, right, family, with all that kids are coming into the picture, which is very exciting. But hey, what do we value? What do we want as a family? Do we want to be debt free? Do we want to live without debt?
Do we want to be a generous couple? Like, what are these values that we want to have? And out of those values is where you can make these tactical decisions, like paying off student loan debt. So I think that's one of the bigger conversations, Michael, that I would encourage you guys to have as a couple. And money fights and money problems, I mean, this is a big tension point for people.
But it's not just because of the money. It's usually the things underneath it that get stirred up because values are not aligned. Does that make sense?
Sure, sure.
What shuts her down when you start having that conversation? Why does she withdraw?
You know, I come to her and I'll be like, you know, I'll ask her, because I'll be like, how's you doing with your student loan? And she pays it every month.
Hold on, I want to stop you right there. Are y'all married? Yes. Yeah, it's y'alls.
Yep, exactly. I totally agree.
So do y'all have separate accounts?
Yes, we do. And I'm not a fan of it. I'd rather our accounts be together.
And she won't join your accounts with you?
She's reluctant.
Why?
She's reluctant.
How come?
That's a great question. We've had that conversation before.
What does she say?
She's like, oh, well, you know, it's really like spinning the wheels, to be honest with you. I couldn't give you the exact wording on it. I haven't spoken to her about it in a little bit.
So here's a conversation that happened in my house about 10 or 15 years into being married.
I realized that my dad was a policeman growing up.
And there were seasons when he would put his debit card in knowing there was no money in that account, but he had babies to feed. Right. And I remember money being this pulsing neon sign that told me that my family wasn't enough. And that my dad's service to his community wasn't enough.
And that I was less than all my friends, because they could buy cars and they could go on vacations.
And so I didn't want to talk about money and I thought it was fighting my wife and I wasn't. What I was fighting was my childhood.
Sure. And the only way we got to that conversation was the time my wife said the words, John, I am scared to death.
And it took the air out of my lungs.
And so I think there's a conversation to have about, hey, have you paid your thing? Have I paid my thing? And dude, like Rachel said, y'all will dance around this thing forever until you have a baby. And then it will be like, I want to have it at home. I want to have it at the hospital.
Right. And then it's just going to go on and on. It's getting to that, that underneath thing that Rachel was talking about. Hey, honey, I feel like you have your life and I have my life and we're about to have a baby. And I've been coming at you with numbers and plans and your money and my money.
I'm scared to death. we are going to create a life that we just co-manage this household and I want to do life as one.
Will you join me in that? See what I'm saying? That's you taking a knee. Because, let's say this. Your plan hasn't worked.
The way you've tried hasn't worked.
And it won't. Because she won't. Right. If she doesn't want to do it, she doesn't have to do it. You know, the way it's set up.
Right.
It's just odd to me, because it's not like we make bad money. We make decent money.
It has nothing to do with that. All that does is buy you some margin to be a little more stupid and a little more separate. If you both are making $7 an hour, you have to pool this money because you can't. Because y'all make good money, it allows y'all to do stupid for longer.
Yeah, Michael. And I think too, you know, if I was in this situation and my husband came to me and just said, and it's a instead of a pointing fingers accusation, it's a different posture, honestly, of the conversation of saying, God, what is underneath that, babe? What is the thing that scares you so much? that is making you so hesitant, not just to pay the bills, but for us to be together as a team? That's almost, Michael, more concerning to me than just $120,000 student loan bill, which needs to be paid.
But this mindset shift. So I would want knowing and humility and kindness, Michael, that you want to know her. You want to know what's going on and having that conversation with her. And then, on a very tactical side, just to give you something, even pull together your income and just say, hey, how long, map out, how long would it take us to pay this off? If we like, really dove in and like, at least give some kind of plan and let that even be a tactical step too.
Because sometimes this idea in your head of paying off, it's like, I don't know how, I don't know what the first step is. But if you initiated that, even, it could be a jumping off point too into the conversation.
We're going to give you FPU as our gift to you.
Hold on the line. We'll give you the book. Glad for what I have in FPU.
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Welcome back to the Ramsey Show. I am, Rachel Cruz, hosting this hour with Dr. John Deloney. And, you know, Christmas. Have y'all started shopping yet, John?
Yes, we have.
You have? Yes. Good for you.
But we're doing it different this year. This year, we're not gonna buy a thousand things. Okay. We're gonna do a couple of things. Yes.
And be very intentional.
Yes, with it.
And so, yeah, we're already thinking that through.
So nice. So nice. Well, we know that Christmas is a big deal to all of you watching and listening. And if you're a fan of the show and fan of this content and you want to give out some things that have to do with whether it's your mental health, your career, your money, there's a lot of meaningful gifts for Christmas during our $12 sale. So shop our best-selling books, The Total Money, Makeover, Baby Steps, Millionaires, and Own Your Past, Change Your Future for just $12..
And also, John's Questions for Humans. Christmas Edition is back. And all those conversation cards are as low as $10 right now. And these sold out last year.
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We're ready to go. Ready to go. So make sure you guys to check all of that out at RamseySolutions.com slash store. The $12 sale is there for you. So order the books, order the stuff to give away to your friends and family, and actually let it be a meaningful gift, you know, that you give.
that's actually going to help them in their life. So, RamseySolutions.com slash store. All right. Up next, we have Logan here in Nashville. Hey, Logan.
Welcome to the show.
Hi, Rachel. How are you?
We are doing well. How can we help?
Yeah, I wish I was better than I deserve.
What's up, man? Sorry, Logan. What's going on?
I'm just kidding.
Anyway, so currently, I do have some debt I got to deal with. And I never thought I would actually be calling into the show after all these years. So currently, I do have some credit card debt. I have a little bit of student loans left. I am married.
My wife has a little bit of student loan debt, too. But basically, this year, we've had a lot of trouble with cash flow.
Her job's not, you know, just basically paying her by check. She was working remotely, and things kind of fell behind.
You're not feeling the stress.
Yeah, we are feeling the stress. And I mean this lightly, because our marriage was a little bit on the rocks. But, you know, we both want to make things work out. So I guess the best way to go forward about this, because I mean, I know I've got a little bit of, I've probably got a few years as far as an uphill battle, as far as the snowball debt and everything. But how can I get her on board with this, on the same page as me, without feeling, you know, so anxious and everything.
Basically, that's just my question.
Yeah, okay, so just a couple of just tactical questions. Logan, how much do you guys make a year?
So I make around $48 on one job. I am taking a second part-time job.
And she makes around $38..
Okay.
Alright, so, and then...
That's before taxes.
Before taxes, sure. And then how much debt are we talking, how much student loan debt combined and credit cards combined?
So my student loan is $6,000, which is not bad. I mean, it's just I haven't paid in a couple of years, mainly because, well, I won't get into it.
You don't have to, yeah.
How much is hers? Hers is around $17..
Okay, and how much credit card debt do you guys have?
$13.. That's over two cards. One is approaching the max out. And the culprit of it is, you know, our rent's $1,700 a month right now. And there were times...
Hold on, hold on, hold on. Not the culprit. Not the culprit. I'm listening to you talk and you have very distant language from reality. Here's what I mean by that.
We had some trouble with cash flow. No, y'all didn't make enough money and you spent too much.
The main culprit is the rent. It's not, it's not. The main culprit is we have chosen to make $38 and $48 and not work. one job, two jobs, three jobs. We've chosen to live in a city.
All of the healing that has to happen in this household is going to start with y'all both choosing reality. Right. And not living in this, this world is descending upon us in all these ways. No, dude, we're going to take it right by the horns and say what is real and what is not. What is real is we are broke.
What is real is, dude, you don't have a ton of debt. You have too much. But I thought you were going to say $150,000. the way, you're just sounding like Eeyore. Like, oh, well, it's all coming down.
Bro, it's not. You know what I mean?
It feels like it by my standards, because this wasn't a problem two years ago. I mean...
Yeah, but you stopped being intentional.
Yeah, exactly.
That's it.
Yeah.
Why'd you stop being intentional?
Um... I don't know. I'm just thinking about... Just give me a straight, right on answer. Why'd you stop being intentional?
I guess it's because I cared too much. Because the thing is, this was a philosophy. You know, Dave's philosophy was something that was important to me, and then I found myself in this position. But I guess what I didn't do was make sure that I did the necessary things to keep us out of this position.
Perfect. That's the kind of ownership you need, moving forward. Because now you're going to, right?
And what's your wife's hesitation? Because I know you were asking about the marriage part of that. What is her... Why is she hesitant?
Well...
She's never really...
I don't see the best way to put this.
Just say it! Just say it! Just say it!
She's not... She's never really focused on this aspect of life.
Just... Okay. So she's a free spirit. She's a spender. She doesn't really want to be bogged down with the details.
Right. At least she used to be worse. But... Okay. Especially this past couple of years, she's saying, okay, we need to do something.
Yeah. Yeah. Logan, there's a feeling I'm having, and I could be totally off base. Because even the way you're talking about the marriage, your marriage, and then the money stuff. There's just a level of kind of like life is just happening to us.
And kind of a level of apathy that starts to kind of just sink in. And you kind of just become going with the flow. And there's not this... And I'm not saying you have to live your entire life intense, 24-7.. But realizing that people that win in life, that have a healthy marriage, doesn't just happen.
Right? They work on it. They go to therapy. They read books. They sit down with couples that have a marriage that they want.
They practice communication. They fight about... I mean, they do the work with money. People that win with money. It doesn't just happen.
They are so focused, so intentional. Right? So there's this level of intensity. I kind of just want to shoot through the air right now to you and your wife. You guys can do this.
Your numbers, and especially if you get a second job, you guys can make real progress. But you have to care. You have to get in this place. And I think you may be there where you're realizing, oh my gosh, I don't know where else to go. That's why you're calling us.
But there's this intensity that I want you guys to have, that's going to help you get through this process. This lackadaisical kind of attitude. You kind of end up getting what you're getting. And nothing changes. There has to be some level of deep change for you guys.
And there's a level of passion there for life, for your marriage, for your money. All of this. To do it on purpose, right? And I would want you and your wife to be on that same page and working towards that same value system. That same goal.
This sounds like I'm going to come out of left field. Do you exercise, dude?
I do every day. I'm a delivery driver. So it feels like it.
What do you get passionate about?
Well, honestly, about music, because I am a musician, and that's why I came to Nashville. I actually made a living as a self-employed musician for years. Then the pandemic happened and I kind of went in other directions. But I still play.
Well, I want you to deal with the loss of that. Of that identity. That who you are. I'm guessing, Rachel, there is a sense of just kind of lost at sea. Good for you.
I know some musicians who just sit on their hands. Good for you for getting out there and throwing boxes to put food on your table. That's amazing. But I want you to find some vigor again. Like Rachel said, like find some passion, some intensity.
Sit down with your wife and hold both of her hands and say, let's do this. You can do it.
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So John, inevitably, what money brings up at times for people in their relationships are just these like little awkward moments, you know?
You and I have talked to couples who are like, seen each other naked, made kids, bought homes together, don't know how to talk about money. And they're like, uh, I just don't want to bring it up. It's like, y'all made a human. Like, I know, but it's weird. Totally.
It's a thing.
And with friends and family and in-laws and parents, I mean all of it.
How much are you making over there, Deloney?
It's such a...
Really?
So, GoBankingRights had these awkward questions, and George Campbell and I on Smart Money Happy Hour, we've talked a lot, we've had this conversation because there's so many that come up in life. And I don't feel as awkward just because, I guess we just talk about money every day. It's our job. So I'm like, I don't even think twice about it. But for so many people, it is such a thing.
Let me tell you a quick Deloney thing about awkward. Can I do this, James? So, I was creating a questions for humans, sex and intimacy, thing we're working through. And some people in the building were like, John, this is super awkward, super awkward. And I was like, I ask these questions to my friends.
So I went home to Sheila, my wife, and I was like, hey, these are all questions I've asked at dinner parties across. And she goes, and I quote, yeah, John, you've been making dinner awkward for a long time.
And I didn't know.
I was like, oh, geez.
I know you're very comfortable with all these questions about sex.
I'm way too.
So James split these questions up. And so I don't know what Rachel's about to ask me and she doesn't know I'm about to ask her. So you go first, because mine starts at number two.
So I'm going to put it in as if I'm asking you.
Okay. Awkward money question.
So, John, how much money did you make last year?
We did good.
We were blessed last year.
Well, I feel like it's a fair conversation. People are talking about their income a lot. And it's just, it's, it's kind of a little selfish to hold it all in. Because if I know what you're making, then maybe it's going to help me. So how?
It would, but, like one of the most common things people tell me is, I'm selfish with private things. And like, you're exactly right. I like to keep that between me and my wife.
I try to really get in there. Okay. So if someone could, that's a trend right now.
Oh, to ask how much? Oh yeah.
Gen Z's like all in it. And because they're like, yeah, if my friend's in marketing and I'm in marketing, I should know what she makes.
But you super shouldn't.
Because if she's making more than me, then I have the potential to make more. I just don't know I could be making more if I don't know what everyone else is making. See, here's my challenge with that. Oh my gosh.
Here's my challenge with that. It goes back to the book you just wrote. If me and my leader, Jeremy Breland, we shook hands.
Yeah.
Here's what I agree to. It doesn't matter at all what you make. Because I agreed to this. I shook hands. The only time it's unethical, I think, is if we agree and shake hands and we say on X dollar amount and he pays me Y and he pays me less.
And I'm like, hey, we agreed on this.
But that's talking about within your leader, your person. that's paying you. I'm talking about your friend. Or this does say colleague. Oh, this does say colleague.
Oh, yeah. But hey, if I knew how much you made. You do know, because you're on the board.
So you know exactly what I make. So there you go.
Okay, number two.
All right, number two. You're asked to donate to charity, but don't want to. Okay, so, hey, Rachel, will you donate to this?
It happens at the grocery store all the time.
Will you donate? No, no, no, no.
Pet parents, particularly cat moms, and dog dads all across the United States. Would you donate to that charity?
Is it a 501c3??
It could be. It's an OU812..
Well, Winston and I, we actually planned out all of our giving.
Oh, so, you instantly went to blame the husband. That was well played.
Winston and I, I said both of us, we are one.
We have planned out our giving for the year. So we give to three organizations.
But we usually put, we usually give to individuals in that fund. So you can apply next year.
to the Rachel and Winston Giving Fund.
Wow.
Can you imagine, like a Girl Scout, coming to your door with Girl Scout cookies and be like, oh, here's an application. You can apply for next year.
I did buy wreaths from a Boy Scout last week because I wanted to support the Scouts.
And I buy Girl Scout cookies by the wagon load.
So there you go. Okay, next one. Hey John, can I borrow some money?
No. What do you need? I'll give it to you, but I'm not going to loan it to you. I just don't loan money.
But I feel weird. I can pay it back in six months.
That's cool. If I feel like, I can give it to you, I won't take it back.
All right. That's how you handle that one, people. Just give. It's a gift. Number one.
Rachel, I borrowed $500, and I didn't pay you back. I'm sorry. I forgot to pay you back.
That's fine. I gave it to you.
Oh, you just switched it?
I don't loan money.
Because originally you loaned it. Oh, okay, cool.
Wait, is that your number four?
Yeah, someone forgot to pay you back.
Oh.
Okay, hold on.
I have forgetful friends in my life. And they're like, oh, I meant to Venmo you.
I just got that text this morning. I forget all the time.
Yeah, so if it's like you have the money, it's like, oh, we forgot to pay you once back for the plane tickets. That's fine. You can just Venmo me today. No worries.
Yeah.
But if you don't have the money, then forget it. I'm not holding that over you. Okay, so we're out on a double date, and you leave the waiter $10 on a nice meal. Not a great tipper. What do you do?
This reminds me of a Friends episode where Rachel Green's dad, anyone, didn't tip well, and Ross swooped in there and changed the tip.
Oh, dude, I'll make a big ordeal on that.
Wait, to your friends? Yeah, I will. Even if it's not a great friend?
If it's not a great friend, if I don't know them, that well?
Yeah, you don't know them that well.
I'll overtip.
No, but what if they bought the meal, and there's one bill sitting on the table?
I've actually left money before.
You don't have cash. Change it? I guess you could do that. Yeah, you can't do that. Not good.
You're on a date, and they ask about how much money you make. You and this Winston thing just didn't work out, and so you're on a date with Dan, and Dan's like, Rachel, how much money do you make?
How many dates has it been?
Three.
No, sorry, you don't get that. If we're about to like, oh yeah, I'm in love, he's in love, and we are, and this is it, then we're talking money.
We're planning for next stages?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then I share it. So would you want it to be a surprise? Not on a third date, but I want what to be a surprise.
Not a surprise, but Dave tells a story of.
you all and your spouses knew that Dave and Sharon were doing good, but didn't know like, oh, wow. And so I would imagine I would have liked that conversation to be had after I was married, so there wasn't this, I would always be able to know somebody isn't looking over my shoulder, or I'm not a part of a bigger plan this person has. They love me for me.
Oh, I hear what you're saying.
I like driving an 88 church, sell easy hatchback, because I knew my wife loved me. Not for anything I brought.
Not after the money.
I have a roommate, and he's not paying his fair share.
You have to have that hard conversation.
Yeah.
You agreed to pay rent.
And if you don't.
Yeah, and here's the thing. People always say, I don't want to screw this up. I don't want to make the relationship all weird. They did. All you're doing is addressing the weirdness that they have made.
They have violated your friendship. It's not you.
Throw me out. I'm simply responding to your lack of character and your violation of our friendship. You did it. I just got to call a spade a spade. I can't afford all this rent.
I got to go get another roommate now, who will actually pay rent. Are you serious? Does that make sense?
It's hard, but all I'm doing is calling it out. Yes, I've never thought about that. You haven't done anything wrong. Right.
It wasn't me. Eventually it was like, y'all get out, right? It wasn't the. if you tell on me, because that makes me a bad friend for letting you go down for me. I think we get that out of order all the time.
Hey, you can't afford to be a part of someone's bridal's party.
I want you to be at my wedding,
but it's $7,000.. Flight Al Capulco.
All these destinations.
Man, I will be there in attendance. I don't have money to be able to do it.
Say it, yeah. Y'all, if money wasn't awkward, I don't know. I don't know if it still is. I feel like we really helped a lot of people.
I think we helped a lot of people out.
with that segment. Embrace the awkwardness, people. Head into it. This is the Ramsey Show.
Welcome back to the Ramsey Show. It is a free call anywhere in the country at 888-825-5225.. Up next, we have Ashton.
Hey, Ashton. Hey, guys.
You live in a great area.
Oh, you know, it is beautiful. The Emerald Coast.
It is. A lot of Nashville people. Hedge your way on most breaks. School breaks.
Yes, ma'am. In one month, me and my wife may drive up to Franklin to see you folks.
Oh, I hope you do. Come join us.
How can we help?
Yes, so me and my wife, we are blessed beyond measure. We are Gen Zers to kind of follow and piggyback off what you just said. And we talk about money all the time. We communicate. And we are blessed because we're in Baby Step 3B now.
However, we're really just in a place where we really don't know what to do with our money, because we are having to travel four different locations in a matter of nine months for her doctor of physical therapy school.
We're in Washington now. And we have a fully funded emergency fund. No student loan debt. No consumer debt whatsoever.
Good for you, guys, Ashton.
Oh, yes, ma'am. Yes, ma'am. We are blessed, like I said. However, I just really want to make sure we do things properly. I don't want to make any mistakes.
However, I know life's all about making mistakes, right?
Yeah. No detrimental ones.
We don't want. As much as possible.
Yes. Okay, so if you guys are past Baby Step 3, are you guys homeowners?
We are not homeowners. And that's kind of where I was getting at is like we're having to bounce around to these different cities. So we were in Tulsa for the first one. Now we're here in Florida. And the next, third and fourth one is going to be in Missouri.
So we really just don't know where we're going to end up. And I don't necessarily know if we're even going to be looking to buy a home soon, based on where we're going to live, if that makes sense.
For sure. So you know what I would do, Ashton? I would be funding retirement. Are you guys putting any money away?
You know, that's the thing is like we call this storm mode just because we're our life's pretty chaotic. right now. In the nine months, we have to really live out of our suitcases and Airbnb, cash flow, everything like that. And it's really hard to like, really get the budget down when it comes to knowing what's going to what the months are going to look like in the next month. So we're really just saving everything that we have in order to build a cash flow.
It's a unique situation.
Yeah. And that's fair. Nine months for retirement isn't going to be absolutely detrimental. But I also don't want for that to be on pause for too long. Right.
So if I were you guys, I would map out I would map out as much as I could. The next three moves and the next nine months. And just to say, OK, on average, how much is the Airbnb going to be in Missouri? Is it if we're going to be there for six months? Is it cheaper to rent somewhere for a six month rent, or Airbnb?
Like I would, I would kind of start pricing out your options, just to get a ballpark. Because here's what I don't want to happen. Actually, I don't know. This may not be your case, but I don't want everything, you know, in those nine months to cost you guys, you know. I'm just going to throw out in random numbers.
Twenty grand. And you guys have 50 saved, and you could actually be putting some of that in the market, because you have plenty of margin. So you are telling me, though, that you feel like there's not a ton of margin. You're not just being overly cautious. You guys are really like, hey, this money we really need and we'll probably use.
Just just based on living off of my income. to kind of give you an idea, my wife's full time clinical, so she's putting in 40 hours, no pay because it's called education with quotations. Right. Yeah.
What a racket.
Exactly. Exactly. You know, Dr. John Deloney, the higher education thing. I understand.
So, yeah, we're blessed beyond measure. However, we're making about fifty thousand. But praise God, we've only spent thirty seven thousand in a year. And so we're definitely living below what we're making. Yeah.
We're not making a time.
OK, that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah.
Yes, ma'am.
For sure. So, yeah. So, I mean, I would be fine with that kind of storm mode mentality, having things in a high yield savings account and just kind of staying afloat until the nine months. But at nine months, do you guys know where you're going to land? Do you think you know what city you guys will be at long term or no?
It's OK. if the answer is no. I'm just curious.
That's the kicker, because she's Native American and that's why she's getting a full ride scholarship for grad school.
Oh, wow.
It's a contract, though. She has to go work for a clinical or hospital. that's under the Indian Health Service. Yeah. And so that is such a blessing, knowing that she'll have to get a job.
If she doesn't get a job within 90 days, they're just going to place her randomly. So it's a lot of stress.
OK. OK. Yeah.
So, Ashton, I want to throw something at you.
It could be.
Oh, what's that, sir? I want to throw something at you. So there's a strange thing that happens when you're. the nerd word is agency, OK, or autonomy. But when your body understands that somebody else is directing your life, it will sound the anxiety alarms.
It will make you uncomfortable.
And most of us, when we start feeling that discomfort, we start trying to solve problems that are just over the hill. Right. Does that make sense?
It sure does.
And part of me feels like you are stretching because...
You're uncomfortable, though, right?
Well, part of me thinks, I mean, you've got the plan. Rachel. just laid it out to you. Just dump money into an HSA, a high-yield savings account, not HSA, but high-yield savings account, and focus on living every day the best you can for the next nine months. Because I think a lot of this is just spun-up energy that you're trying to dissipate by extra, extra, extra planning.
A hundred percent. I'm such a type-A planner, the nerd. I've got my every dollar inside spreadsheet.
So, dude, homie, listen. Get into working out. Get into hiking. Get into doing something else.
Oh, I love to golf and fish. I'll tell you that. Do what? I do love to golf and fish. I'm trying to go golf with Ken one day.
Yeah, for the sake of humanity, don't golf. But go fishing. Go fishing. But, like, come up with some things you can do in real time to practice dissipating that anxiousness. Because here's what's going to happen.
You're going to start attacking your wife with spreadsheets and plans, and she's going to come home exhausted from a clinical rotation, and you're going to be like, hey, honey, I've got four new houses for the next seven moves. And she's going to start leaning a little away from you, because you'll be a lot. And what you're going to be doing is using her to try to dissipate some of your anxiousness. Don't do that. Find outlets.
You have a deadline, right, Rachel? Like, there's an end to this marathon. Y'all are just in mile 12.. And mile 12 to mile 19 of a marathon is the worst, except for the last five miles. So just keep running.
Just keep running, man.
And just, I mean, you're kind of saying it even with picking up a hobby. Like, go do something. But also, just take a breath, too, right? So, like, you guys are doing great, right? If you guys were, you know, deep into student loan debt and she's getting her graduate and it's going to be another hundred grand, you know, all of it, then I could see the, you know, the tight-woundedness that you are, Ashton.
I feel like a little bit from the call. So breathe. You have permission. Just relax.
Just breathe.
You're good. Who wrote that song? You're good.
Just breathe. Faith Hill, I think. Faith Hill. Oh, yeah.
I don't know why Jessica Simpson came to my head. Why did that happen? Sorry, Faith.
You're thinking of Michelle Branch's song, also called Breathe.
Oh, lots of breathe. Okay. Listen to all of that, Ashton.
Still not Jessica Simpson.
Start a playlist, Ashton, with all of these songs to remind you to breathe. Because you've done the hard work. You guys are, you're young. You don't have debt. You have a fully-funded emergency fund, plus the storm mode that you're talking about.
So all of it's good. And then, where you guys land in nine months, rent somewhere for a year, and kind of see, okay, is this going to be a long-term play? And if it is, then you can use some of that money that you guys have saved in this period of time for a down payment and move forward. But I would not keep investing off the table for a year, okay? So, like, I understand, you know, having some money during all these transitions.
But once you guys are settled in a place longer than three months, start thinking about retirement and start working through the baby steps. Because, again, it's the paralysis of analysis is what it is.
Yeah, and it's also an obsession with the finish line. And the more you can realize that finish line's just going to move on you. Because the moment you get assigned to a Native American hospital, you're going to want to know how many years do we have to do it? What's the minimum number of years? we have to do this so that we can go to the next place?
And you're going to immediately jump to that. And then, as soon as you move there, you're going to start looking for, hey, can we make more money? And you're going to realize, as you get older, that finish line just keeps moving. So my buddy Sal DeStefano says, the man who falls in love with the journey goes much further than the man obsessed with the finish line. So make peace.
You're on an adventure for the next decade of your life, because you marry this amazing, brilliant woman who's going to be serving these special communities. Awesome. Make peace with where you are every step of the way, not this obsession with where you're going to end up.
That's right. Ashton, thanks for the call. Thank you, America, for listening. Thanks to all the guys in the booth to make it happen. Thank you, John Maloney, for co-hosting this hour.
This is The Ramsey Show.
Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's The Ramsey Show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create actual, amazing relationships. I am Ramsey personality, Rachel Cruz, hosting this hour with Dr. John DeLoney. And it is a free call anywhere in the country at 888-825-5225, answering your questions about life, money, relationships, and work. So first up, we're going to go to Judy.
Hold on, it's launch day.
Are we doing this again? It's the second time. Okay, fine. It's launch day. It is launch day.
I will sell your book for you because it's amazing.
I'm glad for what I have. My new kid's book is out, you guys.
I thought you were just being weird. Yes, it's the name of the book. It's so good.
Oh, I'm not just saying I'm glad. I am glad for what I have. You should be, because it's good.
But the book is amazing. It's beautiful, and it's well done. Your drawings are so good.
Thank you. I did not draw them. Lauren Gallegos, I'll give you a shout out. But yes, the illustrations are precious. So if you have kids in your life, you know kids, you have kids, this is a great book, especially for this time of year, because it's all about contentment and learning that what we have is not going to fulfill us long term.
And us adults need that message, too.
Can I say this?
Yes.
This isn't good enough. publicity. One of, the last time I looked, I think it was number one, but I don't want to be that strong on it because I haven't looked at the literature in a couple of years. One of the very tip-top things, when they distill down. what can a parent do to help your child be successful, one of the tip-top things is not get them into a fancy school, not to, it is to read to them every day.
Yes. Get children's books and read to your child every single day. Ten minutes, 30 minutes, read to your child, read to your child, read to your child, and it changes their mind. And, Rachel, this is an awesome book to start that. For families who don't read, this is a great way to start.
That's right.
And it's short. So you're welcome, parents. You are welcome.
And it's at my reading level, which makes me happy.
It has rhyming words for John. All right. We're going to the phones. And first up, we have Judy in Raleigh. Hi, Judy.
Welcome to the show.
Hi, Rachel. Hi, John. Thanks for having me on.
Absolutely. How can we help?
I've, well, I've been specifically waiting for John on this one. Oh, John. Here you go.
The pitch is to you.
So my husband and I, so I'm like the budgeter and in charge of the finances. I pay all the bills out of our joint account, all that. I've been listening to Ramsey for years. I'm super, no debt, all of that kind of stuff. We did have some debt.
We paid down to $600.. We're almost done. But then within the last month, I found out that my husband has actually committed what the term is, financial infidelity to the tune of $50,000.. Wow.
I'm sorry, Judy.
Yeah. The reason I'm not like in tears is because I've already done all that.
So what happened was I found out we have meetings about money and I recently heard some advice that instead of just having meetings, we should press, I should press to see all of the accounts. Like, what are the statements? Let me see the, you know, show me your phone, all that kind of thing. And he had been avoiding that. And now I know it's because there were balances that I did not know about.
What was he spending that money on, hon?
So I now have the passcodes to all, to everything. And it was just groceries and gas, and kids need this. It was, there was nothing extravagant. It's just he was spending more than he was making. And I'm a stay-at-home mom, so we just didn't have the income.
So he had run up credit cards, got a $17,000 personal loan to pay them off last year, and then ran it up again to $24,000, another $24,000 loan this year, just two months ago.
Judy, have you seen those statements?
Yes, I've seen everything now. I've seen, I got his credit report. I've got, we have, we have this, the joint bank account, but we each have a checking. So I have his law, I have his passwords, I have everything.
Well, here's what I'm, here's what I'm getting at. It's very, it happens. There's no question. it happens. Yeah.
$50,000 is a lot of money.
Yeah. It's a high. It's a lot, yeah.
And it's very rare that the nickel and diming of groceries here, soccer uniform here,
it doesn't include a hotel room here, a trip away here, alcohol or gambling over here.
I've pulled every single statement. Okay. And he's, he's, so the largest things are he's $250, he's loaned to his sister, or, you know, something like that. There's nothing, I've asked him down to $60, $25, there's a $10 charge. What is this?
There's interest, there's late fees. He hasn't been paying them on time, but there's hundreds of dollars of interest and late fees on, on all of the cards. And I think what, what hurts me the most is that he, I'm always talking about money and I thought we were together, but we were not. And he, his explanation is that, well, he doesn't really have an explanation. He's very humble.
He told me he's ashamed. He told me he's embarrassed. Right. He's sorry. He feels like he wasn't able to provide for us.
There really isn't anything. Like I said, I've combed through, I've printed statements, I've highlighted, I've asked about everything, I've added things up. Okay. And he just was swiping his card. He just, we just didn't have the money.
Okay. So, I'm, we start FP today because I, I pushed for that. Okay. Because I, you know, mindset wise, I feel like we're just not, we weren't together.
So what's your question, how can I help?
Well, something must have happened for this connection. Like, what do I do emotionally towards him? I know there's the money part, but there's also the relationship part. Sure.
So here's what's, here's what's real important. You mentioned it, you kind of flew over it. And I think this is where you have to start. Okay. And this is not a traditional infidelity advice.
When somebody cheats on you, whether with another person, whether with money, whether with any number of things, I think you can cheat on your wife with a golf course. I think you can cheat on your wife with work, right? With the office. I think you can cheat on your wife with a whole bunch of stuff, or cheat on your husband with a whole bunch of stuff. I think, honestly, we so narrowly defined fidelity into the act of some sort of sexual act.
I think infidelity is way bigger than that. But,
we often focus on that thing, and that's what the Hollywood movies are made of. And that's what the big, oh my gosh. And you talk to your friends. I think there's another thing that is more catastrophic, and that is this.
You missed it. And you don't trust you anymore. You don't trust the ground you walk on. You don't trust the cereal you're eating. You don't trust your own radar system.
And that, I think, is often as much, if not more disorienting than the actual act of infidelity. Because when he sat down and explained it to you, and you went through every single thing, his story actually makes sense. He was a grown man who was ashamed that he couldn't provide for his kids, and he just punted reality until it hit him in the mouth. I wouldn't advise that, but that story is plausible. What's scary for you is the sidewalk you walk on, which is I can at least trust me.
You don't trust you anymore.
And so, I think you start this process, A, with, here's the four or five things I need on a daily basis so that I can begin to rebuild. trust. Your marriage, as you knew it was over. Y'all are building something completely new. Honey, I need these four or five things every single day.
And you get to decide what those are, and he gets to decide whether he's in or out. But, more importantly, I want you to go talk to a professional counselor. In fact, stay on the line. I'm going to hook you up for three months with my friends at BetterHelp. You have to start learning to trust you again.
Because you're not crazy, and right now you feel like you've lost in the wind. Hang on. We'll get you hooked up with some professional, licensed therapists.
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All right. Today's question comes from Daniel in Oregon. I'm a 40-year-old married man with three young children. I have an Ivy League degree and an MBA from Georgetown. I am buried in both mortgage and non-mortgage debt.
My total non-mortgage debt is $476,000.. And my house has both a mortgage and a HELOC on it for a total of $881,000.. My total debt is $1.3 million. My wife doesn't work outside the home and I work as a consultant. My gross annual income can range from $225,000 to $415,000, with commissions and equity payments.
I have no retirement savings, no life insurance, no will, and struggle every month to pay my four walls. All my credit cards are maxed out. I need help.
Oh, my gosh. Daniel.
Well, before we dive into the numbers of this specific scenario, this is the classic example, you guys, of your money. It's 80% behavior. It's only 20% head knowledge. You can know what to do, but if you choose to live above your means, even with a close to half a million dollar annual income, this is the result you get. You could outspend yourself continually.
You can continue to do this. So my first piece of advice to Daniel is you have to fix you.
Stop spending.
You have to understand what is all of this. What's the mindset that you guys are in? What are you, you know, it's almost like this, I don't know if it's the comparison, keeping up game, if it's the, if it's like a Medicaid, you know, it's like a medicator just to go and spend and to get like whatever. the thing is, that's causing these massive numbers and this massive stuff of a $476,000, which I know is part education, but also lifestyle. You guys have to, you have to look in the mirror and ask some serious questions about who I am and what am I doing to.
that got me to this place. So understanding you, Daniel, is like, it's a big part of this, but on a quick note, I mean, I, John, I may at this point just sell the house.
Like, well, he's got to pay the HELOC off on it first.
There's a point that, like, Oh, the HELOC of 880..
It's a total between the mortgage and the HELOC. I would,
I would probably sprint to try to pay the HELOC off as fast as I could. And, by the way, wife goes back to work. Sorry, but y'all are, y'all are not broke. Y'all are desperate, scary, broke. Wife goes back to work and.
we pay this HELOC off and we sell the house.
Yeah.
Because we got to go back to square one. And here's what I was gonna say earlier. My dad had a bachelor's degree from the university of Houston and was a homicide detective. They made X amount of money and mom stayed home. My wife got a PhD and got a research professorship.
I got a PhD and did all that. And what that gave us, because we didn't practice the tools, we didn't use the tools. All it did was gave us a shiny object in front of the bank's eyes to dig a massive hole that my dad could have never dug himself because the banks wouldn't let him.
Yeah.
So sometimes this fancy Ivy league degree and your fancy MBA and your fancy job doing, um, I don't want to say charlatan's work, but doing consultant work without some skin in the game. It just simply allows you to dig yourself a $1.4 million hole.
And if the math is math,
that's right. That's right. Yep.
Now here's the other side of it. Um, I do want to hold this. Dave taught me this about ratios. If you're making three to $400,000 a year, um, you can't pay this off. You have to make some drastic changes, sell the cars, get it, pay off the HELOC, sell your home, um, begin working.
this debt snowball that. well, I've got kids that I don't care. You have a two bedroom apartment now, but I make it, I don't care. Right. This is not the picture you had in your head.
with your Ivy league degree and your fancy MBA. You got to deal with math.
Yeah. And this whole thing too, when you're looking at it, I'm like, this is what the world says is going to create peace and happiness for you. It's just get stuff, get stuff, get the stuff. I don't know if you use the HELOC to do renovations on a brand new high. I don't know what, what, what all this was used for, but like, this is the word that's like, that's like, that's normal.
This is the normal plan that's supposed to get you some life of happiness and fulfillment and fun and peace and joy, all this stuff. And you realize it just because of the avenue of debt, it just digs you down where you get the opposite effect. You're making an incredible income and all this stuff was supposed to be this like, Oh, exciting thing in life. And it ends up absolutely crushing your soul. So it is a, it's a hard lesson to learn, Daniel, but I think that you guys have a couple of years of really, really hard sacrifice from both you and your wife.
And, and you, and it's worth it. You're going to choose your heart. It's either going to be hard for a few years of sacrifice and maybe her going to a job she hates, but it pays good. I mean, whatever you guys have to do that, I would rather have that hard and then have freedom on the other side than to, than to live in this day in and day out and nothing changing. So I want to,
I want to look forward to being 46 years old. I would love for you to put down on paper. I'm 46 year old, married man with three kids. I want you to rewrite this. I'm a 46 year old, married man with three kids.
I have an Ivy league degree in MBA from Georgetown. And then you get to write what happens next.
Yeah.
You could still be buried in mortgage and non-mortgage debt and still floating all this garbage. Or you can have made some drastic lifestyle changes, stop spending, sold the cars, all of them, got out of the lease for your rent, your summer home or whatever, sold the furniture, sold the stuff, pay off the HELOC, sell the house and sprint over the next five years towards peace.
Yeah. And live like you're making 75 a year.
If that.
You know, like, yeah. I mean, just, it's nothing. It's nothing. And you can climb out of these numbers. That's the great thing with an income like this.
I mean, you could have $350,000 a year freed up to, or more to go and throw at this debt. Right? Like, I'm, like, there's, there's a big shovel, which is a positive thing.
Income can range from 225 to 415.. I call bull crap on that. It's going to be 415 and your job is not to go, oh man, well, I missed the account. It's to get on the phone for the next 72 hours and find another one. Yeah.
Right. There is no, well, some years is good. And some that. you're not a farmer and you're not praying to God for rain. You are able to go out and make this stuff work.
Go figure that out.
Yep. Absolutely. So, John, one of the groups of people that I, I personally, really respect and love in our country, our veterans. And so, in honor of veterans day, we're going to be giving away financial peace university, which is our nine lesson course when it comes to money, to 10,000 veterans, totally for free, now, through Monday, November 13th. So FPU is one of these things that we have helped.
I mean, millions of people, over 10 million people, walk through and understand the basics when it comes to handling money. So, whether Daniel's question we just went over, or even callers that we've had in this show today, you know, there's, there's these basic principles that are really key. It's a small part of the puzzle, but actually changing the behavior and knowing what to do with your money and then doing it. That's where you start to see progress. And that's what FPU is so great at.
It puts you in a community. You start to practice these new habits around money, this new way of thinking, and we really walk with you through it. So, if you are a veteran and you want to take FPU for free, go to ramsaysolutions.com slash veterans and fill out a simple form that we have there and help us get the word out by sharing the link to all the veterans that you know. So again, ramsaysolutions.com slash veterans, over 10,000 veterans were giving FPU away for free. So make sure to check that out.
But yeah, I love that. I love that. Love, that. Love, that. Love that.
Yeah. That's a, this is a, it's a hard topic. you guys money. And even coming off Daniel's question in this, like it's a lot.
And you can have all the smarts in the world and struggle with making a budget. It just is man.
But the basic stuff. And so I have the humility to say, Hey, what I'm doing isn't working. So I'm going to change it. And hopefully, FPU. for all those of you listening, if you haven't done it yet, sign up, because it will help you create new habits.
This is the Ramsey show.
Welcome back to the Ramsey show. I'm, Rachel Cruz, hosting this hour with Dr. John Deloney and we are taking your calls. It's a free call anywhere in the country at 888-825-5225.. Up next, we have Dylan in Indianapolis.
Hey, Dylan, welcome to the show.
Hey guys. Thanks for having me. Absolutely. How can we help?
Well, I'm 20 years old, a college dropout, and I put myself in kind of, I would say, a decent amount of debt at 20, which I'm not very proud of. I owe about 70 K in loans and I'm just, I mean, I stress every day about it when I wake up. So I'm just trying to see you guys' view on how I should start attacking my loan and how I can pay off my debt. Okay. What's the debt in?
Well, I have 32 K in a one semester of student loans.
And then I have one semester. Where'd you go to school on Mars?
I went to a private Christian school in Minneapolis,
but one semester was $32,000.. Yes, sir.
So their total annual is 64 grand per year. Yes.
Okay. That's okay. Dylan. That's okay. We're going to keep moving.
We're going to keep on moving. What else? What else you got? It's already happened.
I'm not very proud of this one, but I actually owe 36 K on a car loan.
Okay. We can get rid of that. That's okay. What else?
And then I have a personal loan for like 3,700.. Okay. What was that for?
Well, basically, when I dropped out of college, I got a job in car sales and I needed a place to live in Minneapolis. That was like in a safe area. And that's how much. the market rent was 1570.. And then I had some income problems with that job.
So I moved to Indianapolis to my roommate and I had to buy a lease. Okay.
So what are you doing now for work?
I still do car sales. Okay. And how much are you making?
Not a lot. I'm making less than what I owe monthly. Yeah.
Cause of interest rates are tough right now, right?
Well, I was blessed to have a good interest rate on my loans.
No, no, no. I'm saying people aren't buying cars right now.
Well, it kind of hit or miss, to be honest.
How much will you make this year?
My base salary is 24,000 and I make maybe a thousand a month in commission.
Okay. You quit that job tomorrow. You're not making enough money.
Yeah. You're making 36..
I literally took my son to breakfast the other day and I drove past the sign. And it said McDonald's starting $20 an hour. Your car salesman days are over. You're not good at that. You've done it two different places and you don't make enough money to eat.
You got to let that dream go.
And you got to work at McDonald's all day and then deliver pizzas at night and drive Uber into the morning. Like you're, broke, broke, broke, broke. Is that fair?
How much, how much do you, how much would the car sell for Dylan?
Well, I had some negative equity in my last car. So I kind of carried over to the new loan when I bought this car.
How much?
So the car's probably worth about like 27 in the market right now. My whole 30, 35 something.
Okay. So, uh, yeah, I mean, I would, I mean, I, I would, I would take out a loan of like 15, pay off the 36, get a cheap car.
There's no way they give them 15, though.
You do what?
I don't think anybody's going to give him a loan for 15..
I'll get the personal loan out.
Could you go to, could you go to a credit credit union and get a loan for 15,000 bucks?
I mean, I barely get one by my, I couldn't get one for like the 3000 of my dad co-signing without the.
co-signing.
Yeah, I think there's no way.
Well, I'm just trying to figure out how to get, cause you, uh, your car loan is what you make a year.
So, yeah. Yeah. So we got to figure out a plan to get that, to get that out of your life. Um, where's your family?
Uh, my family lives in Michigan.
Is that a safe place for you to go live for a while?
Uh, I would say so. Yes.
Yeah. Because here's the deal.
You're going to need some support around you, Dylan. And you're 20.. Okay. So I want to give you some grace. You're a kid.
I mean,
the mad at you here is that, that the systems that surround an 18 and 19 year old allowed you a kid just trying to do what everyone's telling you to do. You got to go get a nice car. You got to get a good sales job. You got to go to this college that costs $34,000 or whatever. it was a semester.
You got to go do this stuff and you can't afford it. And they let you do that. And I I'm just sick to my stomach, but they let you do that, man.
So, Dylan, what, the best thing that you can do right now is your income, that side of the equation. Cause you probably don't have many expenses. I'm, I'm, I'm assuming not, you're renting and you're going to be living on nothing. You're not going to have a life. And I would, I would probably move close to where you have a support system, with some family.
If nothing's keeping you in Indianapolis, uh, I would consider that, but I would, I, Dylan, I mean, I would be working 80 hours, 80 hours a week. I'd be getting up and I'd be somewhere at 6am and I would be getting home at 9pm. I mean, you're going to be exhausted, but, Dylan, you're 20 years old. You can do it. You don't have, you don't have kids at home.
You don't have a wife. I mean, like this is the season. This is the season to do it, to absolutely go nuts. Cause it's the only part of the equation that's actually going to give you some level of grounding. And hopefully, after a year of that approving some level of income, then maybe you can get out of this car loan.
I want this car loan out quickly, because it's not, it's not worth it. And so whatever you have to do to be able to say, Hey, what can I do to qualify, to sell this and get it out? Because I think that's going to, that's the only piece of this. That's going to be able to relieve some level of pressure that you can get out. So I would be, I would be taking on two to three jobs.
And again, you're not going to have a life, Dylan, but I think that for a season, you're going to be able to, to, to, to knock some of this out. because, um, and the other great thing, Dylan, that just encourage you that you're learning this. at 20 years old, people call this show and they're 45. that have, you know, a situation like this. Yeah.
No retirement. So this is your moment, Dylan, of saying like what I did isn't working. It's not working. And so I will never again, find myself in this position. If I don't have the money, I don't care if it's for school.
I don't care if it's for a car. If I don't have the money, I'm not buying it. Like. this needs to be a point in your story, Dylan, that you look back and you say, at 20 years old, I did some dumb stuff, took me a little bit to get out of it, some hard work, but I got out of it. And, and that was it.
That's the last time, you know, that's cause, Dylan, if you get this all straightened up, you're at, especially at your age, like this is where you're like, you could build some serious wealth in the future, but not with these habits and not with this mindset that you used to have.
Does that make sense? If you were my friend, if you're my friend, Dylan, I would tell you to see about having a hard conversation with my mom and dad. And I say hard, it'd probably be easy, but an embarrassing one and say, I need to move in for a year and I'm going to try to make $40,000.. And if I have a year with no bills and I make $40,000 and I take home 28 of that, um, I can start making a dent in some of these things.
Yeah. I currently live in my, uh, my room, man. I pay about 400 a month for, uh, my part of the rent.
And your water and your electric and your food.
Yeah. It's about five, 525..
For all of your bills plus food.
Uh, not, that's not including food. I pay about, I had 60 bucks every two weeks for food. No way. Yeah. I'm, I don't, I don't eat a lot.
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