"Willem Dafoe"

Listener, before you change the channel, I was just trying to do, I thought that we had like an international market, so I was, like, you know, trying to say hi, but now I could do it like this as well. Welcome to Smarless. Maybe I'll come here, I'll take one coffee, a cigarette, or maybe I'll go see my mistress and then I'll hit every cliche in the book. and welcome to, it's an all new Smarless.

Will, are you fired up about your guest?

Actually, I am.

Oh, my God. Wait, let me guess. It's um, it's an ingenue, and that's why you're trying to be nice and cool and like, a little gel in his hair. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. It's banging. Oh, my God.

Is this somebody, is, is your guests somebody that you have a crush on? Do you have a crush on your guest?

I have a major talent crush on this person. Yeah.

It's a man and he's got a smoky laugh.

Don't laugh. Don't laugh. Don't laugh. Don't laugh. Your laugh is too distinct, man.

Now he's farting.

Shit. That's good.

High class. High class.

No.

Now, you guys, you'll definitely get it now. You guys. Oh, my God.

First of all, that's gargling bong water, right? Go ahead, Sean. I was trying to tell you about my birthday dinner last night. Yeah. Let's hear about it.

Thank you. Thank you.

Did you finish all the cupcakes, Will, and I sent you? Yes. That was incredible. I didn't finish them, but yeah. Whatever sweet treat it was?

Okay.

But, um, the next night, so Scotty gets this, so Scotty gets this, um, reference to, I'm never sorry, referral to this, um, restaurant that's on billionaire's row in, in New York City. You know, on 57 Central Park, South. Yeah.

It was Central Park South or on 57th street. You keep calling billionaires. Is that what they call it? Now? I never used that term.

That's what I heard. I have no idea. I'm not a billionaire. But, um, so, you have to get a reservation.

This conversation's over.

Yeah. You have to get a reservation. Right. So Scotty asked this person, who asked this person, would you go to the Russian tea room?

That's right. above it. Actually. Yeah.

So the, uh, so we go into this building. It's crazy. It's got all this security. We're like, we're scared to walk in and we walk in and we're like, Hey, I have a reservation and it's on the hundredth floor. Yeah.

Yeah, you did. That's why, that's why I keep going. Yeah. I know. Oh gosh.

Hang on a second. Let me, let me check. See, it must be in my trash. It was really late. Jay, it was really late.

You should have looked at them. They looked, they looked like a couple of, a couple of dudes are in from Schenectady. You know what I mean? Like. they were so excited to be there.

Wait, does this restaurant rotate slowly? No. Look at this, Jay, look at this.

By the way, they just look like animated LinkedIn profiles. Look at that. Both you guys.

So it is rotating. No, no, my camera's rotating. Isn't that wild, that view? Yeah. I never want to do it again, though, because it was heights.

So, guess what? So I said to Sean, I talked to Sean before he left and he goes, he's telling me he's going and I said, are you scared? He's like, yeah, I'm scared. I mean, well, you were scared.

I was so scared. I was really scared. I don't need to do that. Are you guys okay with that? I'm not okay with that.

I don't really.

The food was good, though. Yeah. But it's kind of good for weight loss, right? You go up there, you lose your appetite. You don't really want to eat a bunch.

Yeah.

By the way, there's only five tables. Not even kidding. There we go. Because it's a restaurant for the residences.

I nearly spit, take on my microphone at the loop around to weight loss.

Guys, this body's no fluke. Okay. I've told you before.

It sure isn't. It sure isn't. That's what makes it worse. is that it's by design. I know.

Oh, here it comes. A nice segue into a guest.

But it turns out that it's really organic is a career that is just full of incredible performances of varying sizes and characters and degrees, and things. Somebody who started, Sean, you will enjoy, because we know you love the theater. We know you're on Broadway still currently.

At the Belasco Theater.

With a Tony Award winning, hold for applause, Tony Award.

Oscar, I love you. Is that what it's called?

For Goodnight Tabasco, the story of hot sauce.

No way. Whoa. That's a bookie. No way. Good morning.

Oh, God.

Willem Dafoe.

Wow. I almost pulled the thing off the little camera. Every time you said, Will, I reached for the thing.

He knows how to respond to a cue.

Yeah, well. Yeah.

What a pleasure to meet you.

Hi, everybody.

Thank you for that. It's so nice to meet you.

Talent crush thing, but thanks.

Oh, Will. It's such a thrill to meet you. And I did say it, so I want to kind of get it out of the way. The year that Wild at Heart came out, a month later, I went, as Bobby Peru, to a Halloween party and I bought some vampire teeth at a store down on 8th Street and I took a lighter or something. I made him like flat and dark and I put him in and I wore a bolo tie.

So that's when you were just barking all night?

Yeah. And I made a lot of friends, as you can imagine.

Yeah.

Hey, let's go see what this guy's about. So I want to get that out of the way, but, but, Willem Dafoe, what a thrill to meet you, man. Great.

Thanks. Yeah. It's nice to be here.

We have no questions.

We have no questions. Okay.

Ciao.

We do. So, so it's true, right? I was right in the intro, Willem, that you started, let's start at the beginning. You started in the theater. I know that you're, you're from Wisconsin and then you moved to New York and you got immediately, well, you were doing sort of theater in Wisconsin, Milwaukee and in some avant-garde theater, and then you moved to New York and started doing that.

That's right. That's right. I still do theater, but less because for many years I had a company. So every day I was going into work, you know, the way, you know, regular people do.

What year was this?

That's, well, initially I, initially I went in 75, but then this company in Milwaukee that had seen me in my brief period at school called me back to go on tour with them. And I did, for, I worked with them for a couple of years. They were called Theater X. They had a, it was a company run, small company. We did original work, which was very cool.

Just doing a bunch of different plays, or?

We were making plays, you know, generally.

Where were you going internationally? You just take your merry band of actors?

Mostly Germany and Holland. at the time. There was a very good place called the Mickery in Amsterdam and it was really where I got my education, because they brought in theater, they had lots of money and they brought theater.

from all over the world.

And when I was there, I'd see things, you know, from Japan, I'd see things from Africa, I'd see a lot of the great, you know, Peter Brook. I'd see lots of great theater companies from Europe.

Peter Brook, who's sort of, with like one of the Godfathers, if you guys don't know, one of the Godfathers of sort of avant-garde theater and just incredible. And of course, Amsterdam would be a great place because everybody's all knocked out on grass. You know what I mean? So you're doing all sorts of crazy theater.

But so everyone's doing these plays in English, obviously, even though they're from Germany or Africa, or?

No, not necessarily. Not necessarily. Because it's also the kind of performances and plays that don't necessarily lean too heavily on the playwright. Not always. Sometimes, yes, but it's more about the production,

Where in Wisconsin? My sister lives in Wisconsin.

Is she doing okay?

She's doing okay. Thanks. I just want to know if you grew up there anywhere close to her.

I grew up in Appleton, Wisconsin.

She lived for a long time in Whitewater, but she's not there anymore. Oh, Whitewater.

There's a university there.

Yeah. That's where her husband worked. Okay.

That's usually the reason someone's in Whitewater.

We have a big issue, and this is not even a bit, Willem, we have a huge following in Wisconsin. We're like the number one podcast in Wisconsin.

It's quite a trophy.

It's actually a true story. It sounds like a weird thing to say, but it's kind of true.

So, Willem, your choices in style and talent, and everything is so always fresh and surprising, and I could even say avant-garde. Do you think it started there with what sounds like a very atypical theater scene that you've been able to carry on and kind of, you know, we're the beneficiaries of that. You always seem to take a very fresh take on any of the characters that you play and you pull it off.

Thank you.

Did it start back from back then?

It must have. I mean, because really performing in the theater really formed my taste, my nose, the things I was interested in. So that definitely, you know, shaped who I am as a performer and what my appetites were. But always when people, quite frankly, I feel flattered when people say, oh, you choose well, or you choose interesting things. That sounds good.

But when you're given a script that has a Willem Dafoe character in it, which is to say something that's not simple, you and these are not auditions at this point, you're showing up on set with this incredibly gifted take on something. What is that process like for you? Is there an anxiety that you have still to this day about, oh, my gosh, is the first time they're going to see this big swing I'm taking now? I'm going to pull it off, but they got to hang in there with me before they tell me not to do it and trust that I can get there and deliver it in full. Do you think about that stuff?

I don't try to do that. You don't? No, I try not to think about myself. I hide behind other people. Like directors, are very important for me.

Well, I read this interview from you when you were younger, talking about this very thing, about your relationship to the audience, or like going for something and, like, you know, going for a result, or like or inhabiting a role, all these kinds of ideas that you're talking about. And you talked about this idea that, well, first of all, one of my favorite quotes that I found when I was when I was reading about you, which is, whenever you talk to actors and they've done special preparation, whether it's putting on lots of weight or hanging out with junkies or being a junkie, they go on and on about it. And it makes a good copy for People magazine and all that. And people like to hear it. But inevitably, it gets self-satisfying and precious.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I thought was. Yeah. Which which which made me laugh because I was kind of with you on that. But but what what struck me was and this kind of goes to Jason, I think what you were getting at, which is like you said that you don't inhabit a role. You are for moments, while you're doing the role, taking the character through the sort of within the context of what you've been giving, the character is going to do in the scene.

Well, it's all me, because it's not anybody else. But, you know, you kind of figure. we're all people. We have the capacity to be all people. But I don't like this idea of choices or interpretation.

I was going to say kind of actually, again, to what Jason was saying was about taking the big swing. I guess you feel free if you're not worried about, because I, yeah, I agree. You're not. if you're not worried, if you're not encumbered by that thought of taking a big swing, because in your mind there is no swing. You're just being in the moment.

Right. That's one way to think about it. You know, it's, it's funny. Everybody's different. And, you know, you touch different buttons and you're interested in different things.

Have you ever, have you ever showed up on a set to all of this point? Have you ever showed up with taking a swing? All you did, all this prep and the first take happens and the director goes, I talk to you for a minute and more or less. Well, yeah, I was going to say on that, do you? and I obviously meant no disrespect.

Yeah, you bring up something interesting to me and, you know, you don't have those conversations, you kind of intuit it, but I'm really struck by, you know, the beauty of making movies or doing plays is every time it's different. So it's very important. Part of your job is to look around, see who's there, see how they work, see what their tendencies are, see what the world is and fold in.

Oh, that's wonderful. You know, so many, so many people decide how they're going to do the part before they even see what everyone else is. And the fact that you're malleable is, that's amazing.

That's the theory anyway. Maybe I'm not.

But, but Willem, do you ever kind of to that, do you ever come in and then go like, okay, so wait, so I had, like Jason was saying, like, I have this idea, I come in and then you go like, oh, everybody's kind of here. Like, okay, well, maybe I'm going to kind of shed a little bit of that. Now, I'm going to kind of move it this way. Like in the moment.

Absolutely, absolutely.

That's cool.

But I don't come with too many ideas.

I don't believe that.

No, no, really. Listen, sometimes you read a script and sometimes you say, wow, I have special information on this. I want to be there for this. Or this is so far away from me. I got to do some research.

Yeah. We'll be right back.

Ooh, yum.

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But I've, I've done that. I've done that before where I've come in and I've like had to talk, we're going to go like, Hey, listen, I want to make sure I'm not coming in at a different volume from everybody else. So, uh, I, you know, I'm kind of doing this bit, but this bit, I, I, uh, the, the grips aren't laughing at the bit I'm doing.

So, yeah. Um, only because, like Jay, from like, I asked that because from like, a casting standpoint, like, if you, if you're a big, big, big, big star, like a plus, she knows mega international, superstar and they're not going to obviously audition or anything, and you cast them. Yeah. Everyone's guess, that's what you get. Yeah.

You try.

Well, I'm speaking of last temptation of Christ, which I loved. You played Jesus. You played Jesus Christ.

I played a Jesus Christ, not Jesus Christ.

You played ages. And, by the way, not your first time, because right before that, a lot of people's thought that, uh, that your character, uh, Sergeant Elias, was right. Yeah.

Yeah. Which, which was cool. Uh, both were great opportunities.

By the way, Sean, Sean, you should, you gotta know that I read this, this interview, this other interview, we were talking about Elias, Sergeant Elias. And they asked you about the, the Jesus thing, the comparison with platoon. And you were like, well, I don't know if Jesus like went in the jungle and shot people up before.

So I don't know if that comparison is, I think, I think that's a pretty good answer.

They both, they both seem like tough shoots. Uh, which, which, which set was more uncomfortable, the jungles or the, or the, the arid desert?

Listen, they were very different because of what my role was, but they were both great because they were full on. Both. the, both of them were extremely low budget movies. People don't expect that of Last Temptation of Christ, but that was made for a nickel. And both of them were about as far from Hollywood as you could get in terms of no trailers, no very little makeup, no, you know, you dressed yourself, you showed up and were in the jungle, or you showed up, you were in the desert and, uh, they all had modest, uh, schedules and, uh, modest frills.

Yeah. Do you find that more satisfying than when you go and then you go, cause you have made independent films. You've made these, these art house pictures with, with you, worked with, with some of them, if I read you guys, the list of the directors that Williams worked with, it's mind blowing. I mean, so that I'm, I'm so envious of all these people that you've worked with and that they've gotten to work with you, but you, when you go and then you work on a, some huge, huge budget film where the money is spent, that is wasted. Like you could, you could make a movie for their, their catering budget every day.

I see that. And that bugs me, but I gotta let it go, because I say, you know, it's not my money and this is how they make these films. And, uh, you know, I like being a part of that too. And it does things that other movies don't do.

Yeah. Gives you the opportunity to make less on a smaller film.

I, you know, I've always had, for the most part, uh, I feel more comfortable when I got more involvement and, and not more control, but you know, there's more collaboration. We're in bigger films, not always, but in bigger films, there's a tendency to have lots of cooks and lots of concerns. And you just accept that, see what it is and do the best you can and try to have fun.

Speaking of big films in that way, that you were, and this is like one of the first, I don't know if you guys knew this, Willem, you were in, I mean, you're barely in, cause. they cut out your character, but you were in, and I didn't know this. You were in Heaven's Gate, man.

Wow.

Oh, really?

And you shot for like three months.

Yeah. And I was fired from it as well.

No. No.

Oh, you were? Yeah.

After three months?

After three months.

Oh, my God.

Because, you know, I was, I was a guy working in the theater and someone said, you should, should audition for this movie because they're looking for ethnic faces. Oh boy. And I remember the, the audition was, and I wasn't going up for stuff. I was just, uh, I identified totally as being a downtown theater actor. You know, I had my ambitions.

Wow.

You know, I don't know why. it was just, uh, because he was in town. So I did it phonetically. I got the role, but the role was like a non-scripted part. There was a core of people that Cimino was going to fold in the movie because the idea was you'd see these people, you'd create a community.

Yeah.

And, uh, anyway, it became extreme. They saw, uh, the studio saw it was a runway production and the pressure mounted, and I think by three months, there was so much tension that Cimino was a little squirrely and we were in a lighting setup all day. We weren't even going to shoot. We're in full costume in the lighting setup and you had to raise your hand to go to the toilet, like a little kid, you know, but you were there all day on your feet and to kill time, you know, we talk to each other a little bit, not loud, but we talked to each other and a woman next to me told me a dirty joke and I laughed and Cimino heard my laugh and turned around and said, Willem, step out. And that was it.

Oh, wow. Uh, that's like, uh, I always say, so, you're basically doing stand-in where you're doing your own stand-in work. Yeah. Oh yeah. Cause they were lighting the shot.

I'm good with that. You know what? I always do.

It's a very hard thing to do, to, to do. well. I, they, it's a very, it's a, it's a, it's a real talent to stand there, stare at another actor's face, not say a word. Don't play on your phone. Stand still so that they can light the shot for a half an hour.

I always stand in for myself and I must also say, and I'm bragging here. I don't ever bring a phone to set. Really?

Yeah. Wow.

Not allowed. Takes you out.

Right. Yeah.

Takes you out for sure.

So, Willem, um, tell me. I can't, I have to, uh, I always ask people who come on that. I have a theater background. Do you have a theater nightmare story that we would love? I have tons of them.

Man, this is the story of the Worcester group. I mean, it was exciting, but we always had lots of problems and with touring. And, uh, I think I'm trying to think there's so many, so many, I think we did one, burlesque. Uh, my partner at the time was the director and she, her father, died and we stopped work on a piece and needed to do something light and easy. So we decided to do a dance piece, uh, which we called a record album inter, uh, interpretation.

That's hysterical.

But did you, Willem, did you, you, you've been living in Europe for, for, for a number of years now.

Yeah. I still keep a place in New York, but, um, yeah, it really depends on work.

But, uh, where are you in? You're in Europe now?

Italy.

In Italy. That's where you live. Oh, wow. Yeah. What part?

Rome.

Oh, wow. So then, you know, Italian. speak Italian.

Yes, I do better.

Yeah. How long have you been living off?

Not well enough. Everybody gets the six year old version of me when I speak Italian.

How long you've been living in Rome?

Well, to be fair, I've had a place here for 20 years and I'm married, uh, an Italian, and we've been going back and forth for 20 years, but just lately, um, I seem to spend more time in Italy because I've been working more abroad, even on American movies. I mean, people shoot a lot outside of the, uh, the country, and those seem to be the movies, uh, I end up.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, that, that makes sense to me, but I don't know why. Uh, but, but also my, I guess my question is, and it also, if somebody says to me, Willem Dafoe lives in Rome, I go, right. That makes sense to me, of course.

here or vice versa?

I don't know. I mean, I'm forever a Wisconsin boy, you know, you can't lose that. You know, you, you can't, even if you want to.

Um, except they have, they've got to have better cheese in Italy. Yeah. It's a tight fight.

Dude.

Are you starting, are you guys going to start a war with Wisconsin? What are you doing? No, no.

Let's, let's stop it right there. I don't need much cheese. I'm one of those guys.

That blew my mind. About living in Europe, about living in Europe, though.

Listen, I, I've, I've always spent a lot of time traveling, because even with the Worcester group, we spent a lot of time touring, mostly internationally. So I'm not even making a stake, for, you know, a sensibility or I feel more comfortable. It's just my, my life. That's where my family is. You know, I mean, my new family, and, uh, I mean, I have a son who lives in the States, but, um, and I'm always happy to come back to New York.

Yeah. Folks would fawn all over you in the States. I'm sure you're very, very recognizable in the States. Are you, are you stopped in, in Europe as much as you are?

I'm better known internationally than I am in the States, but you'd make something like Spider-Man, uh, movie and it's so widely seen that for a lot of people, that's your, um, that's what you get recognized for.

William, your, your original, your, uh, your first name is actually William, and Willem was a nickname.

Yeah. Oh, really?

And people are always curious about that because they think it reveals something, you know? And, and like, there's a, there's a time I, I was interviewed on a TV show. I can't remember. I think it was Jimmy Fallon or something. And this was brought up and it gets lots of clicks.

Yeah. Right.

Right. Hey, Willem, let's just, sorry. Go back to Bobby Pru for a second, because I love Wild at Heart and I love that character.

Right, right.

And it has. one of my favorite scenes in film history actually is when, um, near the end, when Nick Cage is surrounded by all those guys and he lights a cigarette and he's like, what the fuck do you guys want? And then they beat him up, right? And it's such a hilarious moment, but I, I love that. Talk to us a little bit about your getting involved with that and with David and Bobby Pru, and, and by the way, it kind of goes back to Jason's point.

I didn't, I didn't. I mean, it was on the page, as you say. And also I liked that movie a lot. And Bobby Pru is a magical character for me. And there are some beautiful scenes in there.

know, and you don't have to do much more.

And that was the key. You know, you're always looking for these triggers, and these triggers either hit something in your imagination or they open you up to something that you didn't know before. And then you go and you ride on that. They grabbed you by the neck, you know, that's not a decision. That's something you invest because it falls into your lap.

Oh, that blows me away.

We'll be right back.

No, no, listen. I probably was like that when I was younger, but now I'm just trying so hard to be a better person and be a fuller person that that feeds into it.

Yes. And I, I don't, I don't think that those things are mutually exclusive, in that I, it seems like you are, you, you love people, you love mankind. You think people are really interesting and I'm social, right. And you're trying to always keep yourself kind of growing and whatnot. And, and as you said earlier, you're all, all these parts are always a part of you.

Yeah, I think, you know, it's like I was at, I was doing a film in London and just the other day, and I went to the Tate Modern, I had some time off. I thought, what do I do, you know, uh, today? And I walked to the Tate Modern, you know, took me like an hour and a half where I was, where I was staying. And I went there and there was a exhibit up and there was a thing about, what's her name, damn, Alice Neel. I paint my time using the people as evidence.

Uh-huh. Wow.

And that was, there was something good about that. And I think, you know, we're here as witnesses. We inhabit these things. They aren't us, you know, uh, film, television, these things where we come together to make these things, they're so collaborative that, you know, you. just, you just put it out there and it's a reflection of your experience.

You're seeing him, you're experiencing him.

And that, I think that's, that's the fountain. That's the fountain.

Do you watch what you do? Some actors, incredibly talented actors, never do. watch their films or their dailies, or whatnot.

I do, but I don't go back, you know, I mean, I've watched them. when they come out, you know, like, um, you know, I, I, you know, when you have to do press for something, and you're also curious how things turned out, you know, cause a lot of times you're not, you're not involved in the post.

Yeah, exactly. And that was going to be my followup.

Sometimes you are.

You, you give such a, a beautiful contribution to every film that you do. Is there, I won't ask you what your favorite film is or your favorite part is, but I will ask you which, which film that you've done, do you feel that your contribution happened to slot in once you saw the finished product? A lot of the execution you, you weren't there, for the director finishes things up later that you were most excited about, like, oh, that ended up fitting in a really satisfying way to me as an audience member.

Uh, that's hard because, yeah, it's a good question, but that's hard only because when I see a movie that I'm in, I can't watch it. I mean, I do watch it, but it's like watching a home movie. It's an association of making the movie. It always happens to me. It's very rare.

What a great filmmaker he is.

And that's one of the few times I saw the movie and maybe it's because I have prosthetics and all that, where I didn't see myself and I didn't remember, because there's a lot of fantastical stuff in post on, and that was pretty interesting. to watch this movie, which I love, and, uh, to feel like I was watching someone else. That's quite rare. Normally when I watch, I say, oh God, I remember that day. So-and-so had a fight or that lunch was terrible.

Yeah, of course. Yeah.

I would imagine Spider-Man has the same type of thing, where you can't really see what's going on around you. Cause it comes in later. That is what, is there a satisfaction in seeing that? Oh, that's cool. Pretending to see that.

Yeah. That, that's a, that's a special.

It's weird that you say that, because don't you guys do that too? When you watch something, you go like, oh, I remember I, I had a head cold that day and I could barely, I was blowing my nose between takes and, and, uh, I remember doing this thing where this is about 10 years ago, doing one of those, uh, Ninja turtle movies. And we had, I had the runs. I had like a stomach virus. and the director says, yeah, great.

I'm back on these pants.

Do we need quadruples on the pants here, dude? So I go, I can get out of the van and I can talk here and I can maybe slowly walk. and you got to fucking cover me. You can't even get a wide because you can't see how I'm walking. Otherwise, you're going to know that I'm, you know what I mean?

Diarrhea.

My advice, always keep a bucket close by.

Nice. I just wrote that down.

Just in general, I'd like to stay on the set.

By the way, I love it. And you know, Willem, we have a mutual friend. Who's a big friend of the podcast, who said, uh, I said, you know, he's like, you got to get. Willem is Bradley.

Uh, Bradley. Sure, sure. We had a good time and I, I kept in touch with them and we've seen each other since, and he's always had something interesting to say or interesting to show, or.

He loves you. He loves you, man.

No, we had a good time. And, uh, yeah, I, I, I enjoy seeing him.

What did you, what did you, um, you made this, you've made a few movies with Wes Anderson, right? And now you're in this asteroid city.

But really a cameo. I mean, that's not an apology. It's just a fact.

Yeah.

An explanation, an explanation, if you will. Uh, but, uh, but, uh, uh, what is that relationship with, with, uh, not withstanding just being a cameo, uh, with Wes Anderson and his films, and.

You know, I, it started my first film. I think I've made five with him and, you know, in varying degrees of, you know, some are bigger roles, some are cameos, but it started with, uh, life aquatic, and that actually is what brought me to Rome, because I met my wife on that shoot in Rome. So that kind of changed my life. Um, but life aquatic was so much fun and it was basically kind of like heaven's gate in the fact that it was a role that was barely scripted. Well, it was scripted, but he kept on sliding thing, me into things, and then we kind of inventing stuff.

It's it's me too. I like life.

It's kind of slippery for a long, a long, for a lot of the movie, but at the end, surprisingly, it has an emotional effect. I think that snakes up on you. And I love when you're able to do that in a movie, something where you think, ah, this is fun, it's goofy, you know, you're kind of following it, and then it slaps you across the face. or really, you know, let's, you know, what all that led up to. That's very cool.

Do you have, we, sometimes we, we, we talk about this all the time. The three of us do, uh, and on the show and stuff. Do you, do you have like goals in mind? when I mean goals? I mean, stuff that you go like, I want to go and do something, something like this.

No. You know, and, and as I say, directors are very important because, because it's probably why I'm not a director. And that is, I, I like going towards something. I don't like, have an idea and then I want to accomplish it. You know, I like being put in a situation and after flirt, punch, kick, slide my way out of it.

It's worth, Sean, you can't believe the disappointment on Sean's face when he found out you weren't a Martian, because he just loves, he loves outer space.

Well, and when you're not, when you're, when you're not doing your, your, your work, your acting work, um, what is your next favorite thing to do? Um, do you have a hobby that, that you're super passionate about?

I don't have hobbies. I'm, I feel like I'm always preparing for something I tried to be. Um, I have certain disciplines that I do daily, you know, and also I have a farm now, so I, I never had animals or pets or anything like that, but now I have lots of animals and I grow my own food.

So, oh, that's so cool.

Wow. So that's a big deal. So it marries, it marries that kind of the simple tasks of, of doing like chores and, and cultivating things and eating out of, uh, your own place, you know?

Are you, is that in Italy that you're doing that?

Well, yeah, yeah. But the animals are a big deal and I, we don't eat them because I'm basically a vegetarian and, uh, we keep them. And sometimes I check myself on this. is this really correct, but you know, we try to give them a good life and we try to enjoy them, and they're a beautiful reminder, uh, you know, they connect you to nature, and when you can be connected to nature, I think you can be connected to things beyond this life.

Yeah. Amen. What's your favorite thing to do with the, with, uh, with the animals? Are you milking cows? Are you, are you grabbing eggs from chickens?

I don't milk cows. Um, I, I do, I do take care of chickens. I I've, I've got, uh, alpacas, and they're the sweetest animals in the world, but it's challenging because they're, they're a little delicate and like today, I was nursing one who was sick and I was very, uh, you know, I worry more about these animals sounds messed up and this is why I never had animals before and I thought people that were so attached to their animals were sick, but I worry so much about them. I, you know, I probably worry about them more than I did about my children, because they can't talk to you. Right.

Could be hostile out there, though.

That's true. That's true. And it can be hostile here. We've got, we've got wolves, we've got foxes, we've got lots of boars, you know, stuff happens. the other day, a fox took five of my chickens.

I got to work with these two boars every day. Hey, listen, um, spelt a little differently. Uh, uh, Willem, I know Willem.

You know, I've never told anybody about the farm. I've really laid low on that.

So I like the way you speak about it. It sounds wonderful. It doesn't sound braggy or anything.

Okay.

No, it's, it's awesome. Willem, what I was going to say was, and I was going to say this earlier, but it really came out in that thing is, I like the way that you talk about, it's kind of like the way that you talk about working on something or, or a character, or the way you break it down or not break it down, or just allow yourself to be, it's kind of like, that's your lesson that you bring to your life. You're you, it seems like you're really honest with yourself about, or you're hold yourself accountable often the way that you talk about it. And I, I like that. I respond to that.

Hang on. I got a guest. I know we're almost finished, but hang on.

I hope it's an alpaca. Please be nice.

You want to see a beautiful dog? Yeah. Just real quick. Yeah. I love this dog.

Yeah.

Can you see him?

Teo. Oh, wow.

He's a rescue greyhound. Don't be eating that. He's a rescue greyhound for the track. He finished. Come here, baby.

Oh, he's so beautiful.

Tilt your camera down a little bit, Willem, so we can see the dog a little bit.

What's that dog's name?

Teo. Like T-E-O, like, excuse me, God.

That dog seems very serene.

He's had a tough life when he arrived. He, you know, obviously they don't treat them so well at the track, because the bottom line is they've got to run, run, run, run, run. And now he's, they're like cats, really. They sleep a lot. When they go, they go.

Anyway, man, I tell you, I tell you what, Willem, we could, I could just talk to you. The more I talk to you, the more I want to talk to you. I'm, I've been a, I've been a, such a fan of yours for so long. And I just, I love everything you do and just keep doing it. And you're so authentic.

I hope, uh, yeah, I hope it comes off kind of easy and warm.

It was a great conversation.

Okay.

Now, when you come, when you come to the States again, we'll swap more theater stories.

All right. I think I'm going to be there in, in September. Cause we were going to do some promotion for this, uh, Poor Things that comes out.

Which I can't wait to see that.

I can't wait to see that. He's such a great director.

He's fantastic. And I worked with him a second time since, on another film called And. And that was funny because we were shooting in new Orleans and, like the Spider-Man crowd would come up and say, Hey, what are you doing here? And I'd say, Oh, I'm making a film. And they'd say, well, yeah.

Exactly. And they're like, no, no other questions.

Just that this goes on and on and on. So finally I learned, you know, yeah, I'm shooting a film here. What's it called? Untitled.

Oh man. Well, again, thank you, Will. And what an honor. And what a treat to talk to you.

Good. Nice, nice talking to you. And I listened to a couple of your podcasts and, uh, I really enjoyed it.

Well, thanks. We enjoyed you.

So keep up the good work and keep up your good work. Okay.

Thanks, Will. Thank you, buddy. See you later. Thanks. Bye.

Wow.

Wow. Yeah. That's a, that's a, a nice, uh, a nice, uh, full person guest there. Yeah. Yeah.

Nice, full person. Everything. I, I, I was really, especially at the end there, I started to realize that like, and we, he's, we were interrupted by, by, uh, Tao, um, the track dog, um, but, but all jokes aside, Willem is just one of those guys who just seems so authentic and hearing him talk about his life. and what I was going to say is like, he's authentic and talking about his thing, but he's also just feels like he's constantly searching for, or being honest about, who he is as a person and kind of holding himself accountable. Did you guys get that sense at all?

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And it seems like a lot about like our business, our city, our country, even it's like a little bit at odds with, with the journey that he's on about authenticity, and, and, and, which is kind of runs also counter to what he does for a living, which is pretending to be someone else. So I mean, if we're going to do it another hour on that, I would have asked him, you know, like it, does he battle with that, about trying to really be true to himself and really participate and be open, and, and, and, and authentic, and, uh, yet his profession is convincingly being somebody completely other than himself. And also interesting, like, yeah, I live in Italy and New York and Los Angeles, wherever I couldn't do it.

What do you mean? you couldn't do it? You're doing it.

No, but I'm not, I can't like, just go live in another country and then be okay with that and then come back here. You're Upper East Side instead of, uh, up north, you know, that's, that's a wild difference. You happen to go to, uh, Delmonico's or what's the name of that, uh, market over there instead of Whole Foods. That's tough. Yeah.

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It's all a lighthearted nightmare. on our podcast, Morbid. We're your hosts. I'm Alina Urquhart. And I'm Ash Kelly.

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