I'm Buried in Debt

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Hey, Ben. Sorry. Hey, Dave and John, thank you for your time today.

Sure. How can we help? Sure.

Hey, so I'll just try to skim over the top real quick. I am a full-time single dad, and I was on Baby Step 2 when I got sued by my ex for custody. And so I've put everything on hold, been trying to cash flow through the process that started back in September.

What's the basis of the custody suit?

So she was on the other side of the country, and she just wants to basically flip it. She said he's not been treated well, and he's struggling and things like that. But he's doing very well with friends in school, and he's being taken care of. So that's her argument for it. But her attitude is basically she's going to—we've tried to work it out outside of court, but.

Man, I'm sorry.

How long have you been divorced?

It's been about three and a half years.

Where did she get unlimited money?

Her new partner is very wealthy.

Okay. All right.

And I think that's where a lot of it stems from, is the pressure from her new partner, because it's kind of out of character for her to really go for this.

Okay. Well, here's the thing. How much are you talking about borrowing?

About $15,000, and I have a—.

What happens when that runs out?

Well, I've had a family member say that they would give me a loan, but, like you say, Thanksgiving—.

What happens when that runs out?

Yeah, I don't know.

So, we really have to address this issue, because all you're doing—it's not like you're going to win all of a sudden with $15,000 more, or if you take out another $10,000 from a relative after that. At the end of that, it's not necessarily like you're going to win. So, it's not a I'm going to lose custody if I don't take out a loan. It's I don't have a good strategy to end this.

Have you tried to roll this into mediation? And the reason I asked you why she was suing you, because, outside of some egregious abuse or something else, these things are often handled offline in mediation, which has an endpoint and a dollar amount attached to it.

Yeah, I talked to her about that about a month ago, and she gave me, she just basically told me what she would be willing to do, and it's that the custody would switch over.

Yeah, but I mean, that's the point of going through. the mediation, is one side says, this is all I'm going to do, and the other side says, this is all I'm going to do, and the mediator's job is to bring people together.

Where is it being heard, in Utah or in her state?

In my state.

Ask your attorney about bringing this to a close.

About $40,000..

And you've just been funding it out of cash flow?

Yeah.

So you're out of money, why?

I mean, I'm still, if it were to just continue with all this pre-court stuff, then I could keep going, but I asked my lawyer about how much for the rest of it, and he said, if we go all the way through, he thinks about $15,000..

Oh, he thinks that's going all the way through, okay.

Yeah, which we have a court date and everything set, so.

Okay. Then what I'm going to do is take six jobs and work through the $15,000, if that's it. Because that's doable.

Okay, yeah, I've wanted to do that. The reason why I haven't done that is because I also am a student, and to just help me.

Not anymore. Not anymore. Yeah, yeah. I'll take some time off from being a student. Right now you're fighting a battle for one thing.

Someone is trying to take your son.

Yeah, that's way more important than being a student. And avoiding debt is more important than being a student.

I also think it could, I don't say will, it could serve you in court to say, I had to stop doing these things because this person is dragging me and my child through the mud. And so I had to stop going to school. I had to stop doing this and take more work on to fund these accusations or this attempt to take my child from me. And I'm going to do whatever it takes to keep that from happening.

And lean in on your lawyer and say, I'm a guy who makes $40,000.. I don't have $15,000 growing on trees. Let's figure out what we can do to clip that. That's a little rich. So, uh, you know, just fulfilling your lawyer's dreams is not one of my dreams.

Six for you.

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Dr. John Deloney, Ramsey Personality is my co-host today. Thank you for joining us, America. If you're a new listener and there are a bunch of you, a bunch of new viewers on YouTube and TBN and all over the place, all our numbers are up across the board. Thank you for that.

Hi, Dave. Thank you for having me. Sure. I am on baby step six and I kind of have a two part question. My job security isn't too great right now and I wanted to know, should I wait until I get a new job before I pay off my house?

What payments should you get rid of?

So, like life insurance, 401k, you know, the 501, like the Educate 529 account, tithing. So those are all, you know, things that I pay in towards that maybe I could redirect towards my house.

Okay. No way. Baby step six, we would tell you to keep living your life and with money you find in your budget, you would pay extra on your house. It sounds like this job thing has got you rattled.

Mm-hmm.

How long have you been working there?

Well, it's my company, so for 20 years.

Okay. So you're not going to lose your job, you might lose your business. is what you're saying.

Yes. If one of us doesn't leave and I'm the main contributor and it's not enough to support both of us. So slowly, my income has gone way down to a point where I can't really afford not to leave and he's not leaving. So I'm going to look for something different.

What do you do?

It's a marketing company.

Okay.

Are you married to your business partner?

No, no. But I am divorced.

Did you used to be married to your business partner?

I'm sorry.

Did you used to be married to your business partner?

No, no.

Okay. So how is your business partner squashing your ability to earn a living?

Because he's not contributing and we're 50-50 partner.

So he's not bringing in his side of the business, yet he's taking half of what you bring in. And since he's not bringing any in, the total pie has shrunk and he's taking half of it.

What keeps you from closing the doors and opening a door next door and just doing this on your own and making all the money?

Our partnership agreement, I basically wouldn't be able to do that. You have to buy out. In order to get out, you have to buy out.

No, he'd have to buy you out if you wanted out.

That's not how our partnership agreement is structured. Our partnership agreement is structured that if you leave, you buy your clients if you were to take them. But I'm looking to get out of this industry altogether and start just a whole different chapter.

Okay. So what are you going to do and what are you going to be making?

Well, I'm looking right now, but I'm hoping to manage a team of people and be in sales. And I'm looking at around $200,000 to $350,000..

Okay. So this sounds like it didn't just suddenly occur. It's crept up on you. And you've put off making the decision.

Correct.

You've delayed. And so what you need to do is not worry about your house and not worry about your tithe. You need to get on the phone today and get a freaking job, Chris. It's time to do this. Painter, get off the ladder.

Yep.

You're a year, at least, maybe six months late on someone kicking you. And I'm going to kick you right now because I love you. Get going.

I'm probably about five years.

Okay. Then somebody needs to break the fog up. So I'm your guy. I love you enough. Okay.

Yep.

You got a month.

I got it. I'm in alert. I got my resume ready to roll.

You need to call me back on the air and tell me you did it. I'm going to hold you accountable. Okay.

Okay.

And you need to call, uh, who is your best girlfriend? that's mean?

Say it. Say her name.

I don't really have a girlfriend. Say her name.

Yes, you do.

No, I don't have any. Okay. What about your sister? She mean?

No.

I want somebody mean. I want you to call them and tell them to call you and kick you if you don't do this. I want you to declare to the world. It's time for you to roar again, Chris. You're meowing.

Yeah, I understand. I know.

And you are not a kitten. You are a lioness.

Am I wrong? Understood.

This thing was built up by a woman of...

And I am a Leo.

This whole thing was built up by a woman of substance. This was built by a woman of substance. And yet you have, for some reason, you have watched this thing deteriorate and your life with it to the point. now you're going, I don't know if I need to pay for groceries. No, you need to get a freaking job.

I know.

This is what's going on. Yeah. Go, get that and all of these other questions go away, don't they?

You're 100% right.

Ding, ding. That's why I'm here.

And if you... Hey, Dave.

There's something I don't hear at home very often, but there you go.

We get so stuck in just the day to day that sometimes you just take someone looking at you and be like, what are you doing? You can solve all of it. All of it. Just get trapped.

But you do need... You really need people in your life, in your community, that love you enough to go, I'm watching you do nothing and I'm tired of it.

There's that famous psychological study where they took the dogs and you can do this study now, but they shocked them and they didn't give them an opportunity to escape. And they had other dogs that they would shock, that they would allow to escape. And over time, they would take the barriers off the dogs that they were shocking. The dogs just took it. It was just learned helplessness.

Run away.

Then they take off, right? Just got to get somebody to look at you.

That's the fun thing. We all need that, though, because the fastest way... I mean, that's classic frog in a kettle thing. I mean, that's the way to boil a frog is turn it up one degree at a time. Just a little bit at a time.

And this guy's doing nothing. He's still collecting half the...

Because I'm trapped in a really stupid partnership agreement.

I hear this happen a lot. People have an imaginary amount of money they're going to make when they leave their job. How tightly do you tell somebody to hold on to that versus get something and then begin to maneuver?

In this one, get something and then begin to maneuver.

250 and three, just like I've been doing this job for 20 years, I'm just going to transition.

She's high. She might. She might. I mean, in this current environment where there's such a shortage of high quality white collar people. I mean, yeah, it's...

This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. This is Deloney, and I'm always railing against social media, especially in the summer, because everyone uploads the highlight reels of their perfect bodies and perfect vacations and perfect kids. And I know they're not real. And I also know that I'm blessed beyond my wildest dreams. But I still find myself wishing my life was like other people's.

Dr. John Deloney, Ramsey Personality, number one best-selling author, is my co-host today. In the lobby of Ramsey Solutions, on the debt-free stage, Andrew is with us. Hey, Andrew, how are you? Hi, Dave and John, how are you doing?

Congrats, man.

Well done, well done. So, you're homeless, but you're debt-free. Yep, yep, yep. We're renting now, so. Okay, that's all right.

Dude, I say this with all due respect. You've never made a ton of money.

Yep.

And we hear people all the time, with half or less of this amount of debt. Making six figures, making $100,000 a month and saying, I can't do it. I can't figure out how to do it. And you making $37,500 to $88,000.. It's a great salary, but you didn't do this.

Just keeping them, just seeing that, hey, there's light at the end of the tunnel there.

It's a dim light, man.

2019, the debt didn't go down at all. I paid off the credit cards, but the way the student loans were, even though I'm making payments, it still just didn't go down. But then really got the fire going. Big cheerleader was one of my friends, Bjorn. We would just text each other back and forth and keep each other accountable.

I would love to see that text chain. I hate my life. I hate mine too. Keep going, man. Keep going.

Actually, when you guys were having a sale one time and Bjorn and I were talking, I said, this isn't in the budget for me right now. And it was all of your books, and he actually sent it to me as a gift. That was a great motivation there. Wow. Very cool.

So where are you living now?

I live in Keokuk. I'm renting a house from my brother, actually. Got to land in a new position, and off we go into prosperity. Yep. Absolutely.

Aaron, just speak directly to that camera. What do you tell somebody who's staring at $250,000, $300,000, $400,000 and they're not making $350,000?.

Once you get motivated, once you get started, that's when the promotions will come in. That's when the money will come in. Because once you clean up one part of your life, other parts will get cleaned up, too. Yeah. Amen.

Yeah! Woo!

Man.

And I don't care who you are. It's hard to keep eating right for 48 months. It's hard to keep exercising every day for 48 months. It's hard to pay off debt and having somebody right there with you. You're right.

Yeah. But, I mean, it's a different dynamic to go through this transformational process to clear the debt, to stick with it, for a married couple than for a single. Each one has its own advantages and difficulties. So, like, you haven't got it easier, but you haven't got it that much harder. You just got a different kind of hard when you're single or when you're married.

This one's hard. I think back to the time when my wife and I owed six figures and we were living in a residence hall.

So the point for those of you that are listening or watching is, you too can do it. We don't go with excuses around here. We don't even go with reasons. You can do it. You can do it.

Hi. Thank you so much for taking my call today. Sure. I'm in a rockin' hard place. I want to have another baby, but I also want to go back to school to get my income up.

Which one do you want more?

Both at the same time. Both and.

Why can't you do them both at the same time?

We have two children now. And we just got out of debt on the first. So we're trying to build our emergency fund to learn Baby Step 3..

We have health insurance.

Yeah.

How much does it cost to have a baby?

Like 10 grand.

No, it doesn't. Not out of pocket.

It did for us, the last two we did.

You have horrible insurance.

Yeah, well, we... I was in the hospital a lot with both our kids. So... With COVID and health issues, while I was pregnant.

Oh, okay. So we had extended stays. It's not just a simple labor and delivery.

Yeah, yeah.

Okay. You anticipate that this time as well?

Possibly. I'm healthier, but possibly. So I would prefer to anticipate it than not.

Yeah, that makes sense. Which helps it not to happen because you're not stressed, right? That makes sense.

Yeah, I'm not as stressed, so that's good.

But... Are you working right now?

Yes.

Is there a way to split the difference? and you and your husband really get fanatical and put 3 or 4 or 5 thousand bucks in an account? And just pause everything and store up some cash? Would that give you some peace?

Yeah, we can. He wants $30,000 for our emergency fund.

Well, I want a pony too. And sometimes, you know what I mean? I don't actually want a pony at all, actually.

Not even a little bit. Weird.

I mean, you can wish all kinds of things, but sometimes it's going to take a minute to get there. He wants $30,000..

In other words, if you had $10,000 or $15,000 in your emergency fund, you'd be well on your way. If you want to keep going towards $30,000, that's fine. Is that necessary before you had a child? No, it's not.

Yeah. I just want to, I feel like I'm not contributing if I'm not working. And if we have another baby, daycare costs are expensive, too. So then...

So here's what I don't want you to do, Jess. I don't want you to circumvent that concern, because that idea that you have, that idea that I'm not contributing, is something, it's in the air we breathe when it comes to making women feel guilty on if they choose to go to work, if they choose to stay at home. There's all of this contribution nonsense that is just pumped at you 24-7, 365.. You have to make peace with that, because no degree, no other kid and another kid, another kid, no emergency fund amount is going to let you sleep at night, because those aren't the issues. The issue is you're looking in the mirror.

What's your husband make?

80 to 90..

Does he say you have to be a financial contributor to you?

No.

Okay. So this is you saying this to you, or our toxic culture saying this to you?

Me saying it to me.

Yeah. So let me give you an example, okay? 38 years ago, my wife, 36 years ago, I mean, my wife went home when she had our first child as a full-time mom and has never worked outside the home since. And one of the reasons that I am a national brand and a highly successful business person is because I don't have to deal with drama at home. She's the opposite of a drama queen.

Yes.

To our wealth.

Yeah.

She really is. I mean, that's legitimate. That's not me just philosophically discussing something. There's an actual factual piece of data here that says that one of the reasons we have the money we have is because I've been able to focus at work instead of having to deal with a bunch of crap with some princess at home. And so I call that contributing.

And it's coming from the outside in. It's come from the inside out.

Exactly, exactly. Because it gets planted in you early on. And Sharon's dealt with that. Rachel, who's a very, very busy career woman, Ramsey personality.

My wife deals with that.

Deals with it, you know, and talks about it openly. You know, OK, I feel bad if I'm leaving to go. But also, this is what I'm called to do, and I'm going to go do it. And if I didn't go do it, I'd feel bad for not going to do it. And so it's like, yeah, damned if I do, damned if I don't.

That's exactly right. And that order you're talking about, it tends to line that order up pretty easily. Sometimes, if you're trapped in a story that you're telling yourself, I'm only worth this or my only value is this, or I'm not contributing, there's something really powerful about writing that down and reading that to your spouse, especially in this situation where there's not a spouse like, man, you need to get off your butt and get a job and there's two kids and a third on the way, that idiot. That doesn't sound like her husband at all. No.

And he doesn't make a bad income.

No, he's doing fine. Yeah, he's doing fine, especially you're going to have a madhouse with three young kids running around and no one's got a lot of money with all that. That's life. But he's doing well. But I think, sit down and tell him that, hey, I don't feel like I'm contributing.

You know, when we were doing it, I'm not sure I really grasped it. I didn't care. I didn't. I didn't care. But when I look back on it now, I'm 100% sure I'm Dave Ramsey that everybody knows because of what she took care of at home.

Yeah, no question about it.

This is The Ramsey Show.

They're not real friends.

It's not a real relationship.

The way you tell somebody that you love them is not an electronic thumbs up. That's not how love is transferred these days.

Click a like. Nope. Click like. I, like you.

You can. It's going to leave you hollow inside.

We used to send these little notes up and down the aisle in elementary school. Oh, yeah. Remember those things? Yeah. Yeah.

And you'd be like, you're dumb. You're ugly. You like Dave. Ooh.

Yeah. Grody. Correct.

Yeah. Remember that word? There was something tactile about it. And you could see them.

There was an actual human over there. Yeah. Not a digit. Yes. You weren't arguing with a bot.

With a 011110.. Yeah.

Yeah.

It's a different world.

So it turns out that trolls are the mean people on the internet. When you meet them, they are highly disappointing individuals.

Yeah.

They're really kind of sad, little, cowardly people that don't, that in a real world, would never be that brave. Yeah. They just, and people who are mean on Facebook and gossipy, if you ever sat in a room with them, would never have that kind of courage. We call that digital courage. So it turns out real, actual relationships are something that we specialize around in here.

Ta-da.

And it's really marketable in America today. So it's like a discovery. Your Facebook friends will not help you change your tire at 2. a.m. Not one of them.

It's that, Dave, it's that, you know, the criticism of Ramsey Solutions is, you know, you're just giving people common sense. That's where we are.

That's where we are. 100%.

And I'm just-.

Unashamedly.

I'm giving people like-.

And I'll charge you for it, since you haven't got any.

Turn your phone off and talk to your children, and I'll show you how to do that. Yes.

If you don't know how to have a conversation, John will sell you a deck of cards to help you do that.

I got you. If you don't know how to tell your wife, hey, this is what I need, I will help you out. Yeah.

It's a wild world, man.

It's a wild world.

Well, it's- Dave, people are crazy.

It's-.

But, you know, there is a- There's a relationship revolution. Yeah. That's starting to occur where people are saying it's not okay to sit in a restaurant and both of you send texts across the table.

I- Dave, I saw some students that had- They took all their phones and they stacked them up in a pile, and the first person who grabbed them had to pay for the whole meal. and they are- They are practicing- We realize we're addicts. We're going to practice just sitting at the table together. Yeah. I love it.

So, for five years I've been trying to learn how to play golf, and that's another story. We'll go-. It's another type of problem in addiction. but anyway, aside from that, one thing I've been practicing is I have my phone on the golf course. Well, I mean, golf is a really ridiculously difficult, complicated game for somebody like me that is limited in athletic ability and so add to it distractions of crap coming from the office on the iPhone.

Okay. How do you feel when you do that? Are you angsty or do you feel free?

You know, for a little while I was like an addict. It was like I was being taken off the pill, right? Or taken off the drug. but now I kind of look forward to it and there's this peace when you come because there's an agitation that goes with the constant screen check. Is it 2,500 times a day somebody checks the screen?

I don't know. It's- Those numbers are-.

Typical people, 2,500 times a day they check their screen.

Just grab it. Grab it.

You know, it's just like. I just got dinged. I just got liked. Has your golf game improved? I just got unfollowed.

Did your golf game improve?

Considerable. Really? It's all about concentration. Anything that interrupts- If you're thinking- I was playing with a pro and he said- His sports psychologist says okay, after you hit every shot in the round, we're going to grade. We're going to step to the side and grade.

Your marriage works the same, right?

Right. Guess what? You follow- I followed a guy out of the neighborhood the other day, my little HOA. He's- You know, six o'clock in the morning and it's still dark. He's swerving all over the place.

But here's the other side of it and you noticed in short order, I get itchy without it and then I go four hours and suddenly there's a piece and my golf game's improving and now I kind of crave it and I can't wait to get out there because I don't have this thing. A few weeks ago,

or just- Pizza and chocolate cake 24-7.. It was madness. Madness.

Her blood sugar wasn't so great, but everything else, listen, since that weekend where I put my phone away and she had my undivided, dad's going to be with you for breakfast, for lunch, for dinner, I have a whole new relationship with my kid. Like she comes in, hugs him when I wake up in the morning, and it was literally day 48 hours. It was 48 hours of. I'm just going to laser in on this little girl and to control, delete our relationship. It's amazing.

Well, that's the good news. It'll heal back. Bad news is it doesn't, if you don't put the screen down.

You've got to put it down. You've got to put it down.

And screens aren't evil, but the overuse of them, and substituting that for real connection and real relationship is evil.

I'm starting to think you've said for 30 years that money is a byproduct of your marriage or relationship, like what you've got going on in your life.

It's not the problem, it's the symptom.

I'm starting to think screen time is too. If you're sitting there at a restaurant and both of you are staring on screens and you're on a date with your wife, that is the smoke coming up from the fire of your relationship.

That's assuming you ever knew how to do a relationship.

That's right. That's right.

But we have a segment of the demographic that has never been without a phone in their hand. Right. And so they don't know how to break up except by text.

I'll tell you what, man. I had a student come in that got his wife left him divorced via text.

You should probably just go. Good grief, man. We have a Zoom conference because she texted me that she's grieving. Why are you here? We're so real relationships.

Fake it till you make it. It's popular career advice, but it doesn't work for very long. If you don't love what you do, you can't fake the enthusiasm and energy you need to win at work. You also can't fake your physical health and energy. Everybody knows we should eat more fruits and veggies, but fruit chews and veggie chips don't count.

Dr. John Deloney, Ramsey Personality, is my co-host today. Luke is with us in Cleveland, Ohio. Hi, Luke. Welcome to the Ramsey Show.

Good afternoon, gentlemen. It's a pleasure to speak with you.

You too. How can we help?

Well, I'm either on Baby Step 2 or Baby Step 7, and I need a little clarification to figure out which one I'm on.

Okay.

So I have a credit card, which I don't want to have a credit card, but with where I'm at in my life, I'm fortunate enough that I can take a trip to Mexico or to the Caribbean about twice a year, and on all the debit cards I've found, they all have a 2% foreign transaction fee, and my credit card does not. So I do have the credit card, but I use it for the time when I'm at the trip, and then I pay it off the following month when the bill comes due.

You know, that's interesting. I got back from Mexico Sunday, and I have been there 10 days, and I didn't have a single charge you're talking about on my debit cards.

Really?

Yeah.

Yeah, no, and it's always in dollars, and that's still apparently a 2% fee at my two credit unions and two banks that I talk to.

I just booked a trip.

I think you just need a better debit card.

Different bank.

But anyway, even if you're, I mean, we would tell you to get a better debit card, because we don't believe in credit cards at all, but even then, if you use a credit card and you paid it off, what's your problem? You're not in debt. No. That's not a baby step two thing.

Well, I mean, I guess there's a bill, but it's not really, I guess, a true debt, but also I'll keep my credit score, which I don't really want.

Yeah, that's a problem.

And that's something that you talked about before, so I was just kind of confused on what I should do.

Well, number one, here's the thing. The amount of pain that you were in before because of your stupid money decisions will dictate how drastically far you go with these things. I went completely broke, so I don't walk anywhere near a bank except to make a deposit.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah. So, again, what we teach is based on this absolute I'm never going to go near a debt instrument again because I'm never going in debt again, so that would dictate for someone doing that that they go and find a bank that doesn't have ridiculous fees on their internationals, and I'm really shocked your credit union does. I would talk to them about just removing that, because credit unions are very, very customer oriented, much more so than banks in general.

And they don't want to lose a baby step seven customer. Yeah.

But if you have a bill that comes in during the month, like your electric bill, and you pay it, you're not in debt. If you had a credit card bill that came in and you paid it, you're not in debt. You're on baby step seven. You're just on baby step seven and you still have a credit card, which is the only thing I would obviously have just griped at you about. But yeah, but you're a baby step seven, guy.

Hi, thank you for taking my call.

Sure. What's up?

I was just wondering if we should pay our mortgage or if we should wait until we have a little bit more saved. that's like a safety net.

Okay, do you have any other debt?

No.

You're fairly new to this whole Ramsey stuff, aren't you?

Yes.

Okay. So we teach a process called the Baby Steps. And it's how to apply. It's the next step, the next thing, and then the next thing, and the next thing, a clear path from where you are now to wealth. First thing is get $1,000..

Well, I just quit my job, so now it's going to be about $100,000..

Okay. Are you going back to work?

No, I'm going to be a stay-at-home mom for a while.

Okay. How much is your house payment?

About $650 a month. Wow.

Good work, Hannah. Wow.

Okay. That's weird. That's wonderfully weird. Okay.

Savings, we have about $95,000..

Okay. Let's allocate $20,000 of that to your emergency fund. Now, everything else is going towards your mortgage. How much is your mortgage balance?

About $92,000..

Great. Okay. So you said you have $95,000 in savings?

Yes.

Hmm. Okay.

Good grief. I love that. That was like a slow flex. And we have $95,000..

And $600 house payment. That's fantastic. Translation, Hannah, you are well on your way before you ever met anybody called Ramsey, but we'll help you get there even faster.

So, Dave, one of the criticisms I get is, let's just say this situation. How do you tell somebody, because mathematically, it kind of went in the lottery, the $650 house payment. But there's the umbrella, the shadow that sits over you, that says somebody else, you owe money to. You owe money to somebody else.

Because several things happen in addition to the math being freed up. The first thing, number one, the math is freed up, and now you can invest and save and be generous with your entire income. And it will cause you to be wealthy faster. That's the basic thing. But it's only $600 we're freeing up here, so it's not like it's a ton, but it's there.

You just took client after client after client?

Client after client, yep. Whew!

Man, that's exhausting work. It is.

It is. That's like walking through spiderwebs all day long.

You had long hair when that started. Yeah, I did.

I did. It all disappeared, yep. Wow! That's a lot of therapy without getting any. And Amber,

what do you do for a living?

I'm a reseller, and I have a small YouTube channel. Oh, cool! What do you resell? Clothes and shoes and really anything and everything. What do you do, eBay or Facebook Marketplace?

then they feel ashamed, so they call you.

They call me, yeah.

They talk about that.

Got it figured out.

And they got to get back up there.

You guys got a racket. Well played, guys.

Well played.

All right, so what got y'all started on this? two and a half years ago? I shared with Corey how much debt we were in. When we first got married, I pretty much handled all of the money, and Corey kind of was just on the back burner. He just worked and just had his head down, and when I finally shared how much debt we were in and he realized how much debt, we were like, we have to do something, and I found the seven baby steps, and we were like, this is it.

So, as a mental health therapist, what was it like when...

Go ahead.

Realizing, oh, we should probably communicate as a married couple.

Yeah, imagine that. No, it not only aided me in my personal growth, but professionally as well, teaching clients to do the same thing, so it's all about communication and it's all about intentionality being on the same page. Yeah. That's very cool. Okay, so what was the $182,000??

Oh, so, when you shared it with him, you told him, right?

The one, he already knew that he was deeply in debt. Okay. The way y'all say.

that is so gentle. I shared with him the debt. No, I told him how much you racked up.

Yeah, I had some as well, but his was the larger chunk of it. Yeah, okay. So he looked at it and said, oh, yeah, this is a thing. So talk to me, for the sake of the audience, about that dynamic, because it's really important when we're kind of joking around and laughing over the top of what is actual, some actual pain. You were carrying a lot of stress.

Yes. And then there's, Dave, you just nailed it. It's a stress to shame loop-de-loop, because then you handed him your stress and then you felt really ashamed about all this debt. you racked up, right? Absolutely.

It's very challenging, but self-compassion is a very important trait in this journey. Without it, we wouldn't have been able to make it. Yeah, that's good. And it made our marriage stronger as well. Yeah, that's a good one.

Wow, yes, Dave. That's how that works.

It's a peanut butter and jelly system. High protein. That's how you get those muscles. Okay, yeah, that's for sure. Oh, my God.

Can you eat peanut butter and jelly now? That's the question. No. I can't do it.

I ate tuna fish sandwiches when we were broke and I smell tuna fish still to this day. My net worth goes down. I just, I hate them. I hate tuna fish, you know, just because it was broke people food, you know. For you, it's peanut butter and jelly.

Y'all are incredible.

Yeah, well done, you guys. Thank you. Very well done. Very well done. Now that you're 100% free, how's it feel?