Trump and CNN Together Again

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All right, let's get to the news Dan Donald Trump is really having a week, really having a week.

On Wednesday night, he'll participate in a live town hall on CNN, hosted by journalist Caitlin Collins. This is Trump's first appearance on CNN since 2016 and his first non-MAGA media appearance since he stormed out of a 60 minutes interview with Leslie Stahl in 2020. I completely forgot that happened.

Why do you think he's finally leaving the comfort of his MAGA media bubble? Smart move, dumb move, what do you think?

He's not on TV a lot, so he's looking for attention and I think this will get him attention. Not only from the CNN audience, but from other outlets that cover the town hall. He's can show Republican voters that, you know, he's the only one tough enough to take on the fake news. Well, Ron DESantis is just in his mega media bubble. And you know, if if Caitlin Collins calls out his bullshit and he gets in a fight with her, then he knows that the mega media will defend him the next day?

And there'll be a rally around Trump effect because the mean, mean CNN fake media attacked Donald Trump attacked our favorite president.

And that has been for all of the insanity that is Trump. There is the method versus madness. quotient in his 2023 campaign so far has been slightly more in the method category. There is a plan here and this is part of that plan. Can he execute that plan? History would say no, but you at least that you understand.

I understand why he is doing this and it makes some strategic sense given what he's trying to do. Both in this immediate short term of the primary and then the longer need to unify the party and appeal to, people are pretty skeptical of him.

Not only is there not much journalistic value, it actually runs counter to the stated purpose of journalism, which is to provide your consumers and viewers with accurate information. And you're making a strategic decision to give them inaccurate information. And that is not Caitlyn Collins fault. I think she will do as well as anyone in holding him to account. She is definitely. If you've seen her questioning him at press conferences, she's not afraid of him in any way, shape or form. But it's impossible to do it, even in a one on one interview, it's impossible.

What are you going to do? Just keep asking him over and over and over again, as a clock ticks, about the one specific thing. No, you move on. And so the people who watch this will be exposed to disinformation, and probably the exact disinformation that led to a violent assault on the Capitol. And so CNN. Of course, they're going to do this.

They would never turn this down. This is a chance at ratings, it's a chance to be relevant to things they've been struggling with. But Philip is completely right about that. The press Still, I think they know how to cover Trump.

They just don't want to make the tough decisions to do that.

And not live.

And not live.

It is both possible and necessary that Caitlyn asks tough follow-ups and fact-checks him on the spot after.

Because if you're just gonna let voters ask him questions and broadcast it, then it's a fucking mess. You just can't do that.

Just lots and lots of stuff to ask him.

They invited Desantis and some others. And because the publisher of The Washington Post is on the board of the Reagan Library, and, of course, he hates the Washington Post. And I guess he might want to skip the first debate because, quote he doesn't want a debate in August. Who does?

And because it's hosted by Fox News. So my take on Tuesday's pod was that there is very little political downside and potentially some upside for Trump if he skips. But what do you think?

I mean, Trump had a quote, and this is like. One of the things that is notable about Trump is that he doesn't really buy into the parts of politics where you're supposed to pretend. So Trump's argument was to, this is, debates are for people who are behind, or even not people who are ahead, and I'm winning, so why would I debate which is right?

That is strategically correct. We all have to pretend otherwise about the value of public debate and, you know, exposing yourself to voters, but from a pure strategic point of view. If you were winning and winning by a lot. And one of the reasons winning by a lot is because your opponents can't get any attention, why would you invite them on stage with you? To have a moment to gain traction? It makes no strategic sense for him.

I don't know, but I don't think the RNC will cancel it. But it wouldn't surprise me if the other, maybe the other candidates, pull out, maybe it's not worth it to them, or the network partner backs out, maybe. It's just like a tree falling in the in the forest. Do you remember in 2016 when the Republicans had two tiers? Like the top 10 candidates were on one stage, and then, like, the bottom four candidates were on another stage? I mean, how much do you remember the Carly Fiorina Lindsey Graham debates of 2016??

I do wonder, to go back to your question, whether they cancel it. Whether Ron DESantis also pulls out of a debate if Trump is not there. Because what? How diminishing is it for him to be on stage being attacked? But they're all going to attack him. Cause now their new strategy is we're going to take out DeSantis. So we can be one-on-one with Trump. A strategy that worked perfectly in 2016 for all the anti-Trumps.

And so he's going to just be taking hits from Asa Hutchinson, I don't think that's good for him either.

And when no one challenges you, this is the shit that happens. There was a CBS poll out this week that just polled Republican voters 61 want a candidate who says Trump won in 2020. It's a lot of people, a lot of Republican voters. 58 said that they would vote for Trump today, but 76 are either saying they'll vote for Trump today or are considering Trump. 76 of Republican voters. That is his ceiling, at least in that poll. That is quite a big ceiling for a lot of people who are like, Well, there's a lot of Trump fatigue and stuff like that.

And, you know, I thought it might be possible, too. But if 76 of people are considering voting for him, it could be over pretty quickly.

Like all the stuff that they are, all the rest of them are trying to do. It's not that's not what voters want. They just want Trump, they want Trump, or they want someone, or they want to win. I mean, the only option is that they really want to win, and they decide that Trump can't help them win.

That's, I think I continue to think that's the only way he could lose.

What's their beef with the commission, Dan?

Republicans, for a more picky ewen reason, hate the commission, because the commission selected Steve Scully of C-Span to be the moderator of the second debate. And in the 1970s, Steve Scully was briefly an intern for Joe Biden. This was seen as evidence that he was biased, and this was part of some major plot to take down Donald Trump. Now, I also remember-.

The Steve Scully debate was the second debate. It was canceled because Trump had Covid. And they were unable to come up with an agreement around some sort of remote thing. And Steve Scully obviously was a Biden sleeper cell, based on his intern program.

So that same process could theoretically take place outside of the commission process. Where ABC could come to both campaigns and say, we want to do a town hall style debate focused on the economy, and it's going to be moderated by George Stephanopoulos and Robin Roberts or whatever. And then the two committees could say, we're interested, we're not interested, we'd be interested, but do X so that negotiation process could happen. I think if the commission process, as annoying as it is, were to fall by the wayside, the odds that we actually have debates could go down pretty dramatically.

A few other journalists were there for the incident, including an Axios reporter, but somehow no one reported it until Charlotte did this week. What's going on there? Do you think that do they not like making news?

Instead, their silence about this reinforces all of the most negative stereotypes. Reporters, they're too cozy with powerful people, they're trading this for access. People are saying that. Vaughn Hilliard, the reporter, the people on Twitter have talked about, like, maybe he's saving this for a book.

I don't know that to be the case, I don't know Vaughn Hilliard, I'm sure he's a good guy. And most reporters like to make news more than they like access, or more than like. The reason the point of access is to make news is not to get like canapes or something, right?

It is a broad based erosion in trust in the media and their behavior in this incident and how they've handled it. Afterwards. It helps explain why that is.

But I think that the CNN story, this story. Over the past several weeks, I've been kind of thinking like, we are just sort of walking into. Donald Trump is back, he's going to be the fucking nominee, we're going to be 70,000 votes away from him becoming president again. And everyone's just like, Well, I guess that's where we are.

I guess he's going to throw a phone, I guess we're not going to say anything about it. We'll just put him in a town hall on CNN and see what happens. He's going to take questions talked about like he's a normal candidate.

Analyzed like he's a normal candidate, the guy fucking incited an insurrection, tried to overturn the election.

It's just it's wild and I don't really know what to do about it. Like, except to go out there and fucking win and beat him. But it's, it's pretty troubling, it's pretty troubling, to say the least.

And you know, we've talked about this before, but all of us have agency in this right now. We know about the phone story. And are people going to be fucking shocked to find out that Donald Trump is not fully in control of his faculties? No, but it is a news story and it is relevant, and if the press doesn't tell it, we can tell it, right?

We can use all of our platforms to do it, not just our podcast, but the people in our lives. But it is, you are exactly right that I just I. There's this real like fiddling while Rome burns sort of attitude here, and I get it like the press is in an absolute crisis.

I mean, in the last couple of weeks, Vice News, bankruptcy, Buzzfeed News gone, layoffs at CNN, cable ratings down, you know, Washington Post. Of all people struggling to make money and losing subscribers, you know, the New York Times succeeding. But on the back of Wordle and recipes, right? Like that is how these things are happening, and there's just there is. We're in a crisis moment.

And this is, I think this election has the potential to be the last best chance for the traditional political media to regain the trust. Of some people, not all people, that's never going to come back, but some people. And if they fail that test, that could be absolutely it for journalism, as we know it. The idea of a fourth estate and the early signs are not great. There are some great reporting happening, there are some people who are doing this very aggressively.

I mean, just the fact that Philip Bump, a Washington Post reporter, said that other media outlets shouldn't air Trump live is like a step in the right direction. There are the ways that CNN handled the big lie. You know, people like Jake Tapper and Abby Phillip and Dana Bash others after the 2020 election was a step in the right direction, but there are a lot of forces pushing in the wrong way. And and the temptation. A media business that's suffering financially with Donald Trump. A ratings boon on the horizon is a pretty dangerous combination for the future of the.

He also tried to grab the steering wheel of the Secret Service vehicle to go to the Capitol and participate in the insurrection. And he helped incite. Much worse than tossing the phone. But like, that's just another incident down the memory hole. Because we're just, you know, news is. The news cycles are now like five minutes long. I mean, if that is, and the media is breaking down and Twitter is breaking down.

And so it's like, no one. It's the challenge I think of. This election is going to be continually reminding people not just of like, where we are and where we could go, but where we've been and what has happened to us over the last four years in this country, especially with Donald Trump? And I don't know, you're right, I don't know if the media is equipped to do that.

And I think one of the big challenges is just some of it's not news. And so, you know, the whole thing about, oh, don't normalize Trump, he's normalized where it's normal we've now all lived through the last several years.

It happened, and it's it's a. It's a tough, it's a really tough challenge, even if the media were at their best.

It's exhausting, but like, that's where we are and it's either go do the work or let this happen. So, all right, let's talk about the latest debt ceiling drama, One crisis to another.

On May 9th, Joe Biden will be meeting at the White House with the four top congressional leaders Kevin McCarthy, Hakeem Jeffries, Chuck Schumer and Mitch McConnell. The president and Democrats are holding strong to their principle of not negotiating with hostage takers. But they're reportedly looking at three different options for how to avoid default. One, a discharge petition to declaring the debt limit unconstitutional under the 14th Amendment. And three, a two track strategy, where Biden and McCarthy cut a deal on the budget that's separate from a debt ceiling increase. Let's explain each of these scenarios and then talk about the pros and cons of each and the likelihood of each. Let's start with a discharge petition.

The bill has to be on the calendar for 30 days. There has to be a rule then there. Then there's time after you, then you have to get the signatures, and there's a time after the signatures. But for all the people who say, I think often and fairly, the Democrats don't know what they're doing. They handled this brilliantly.

Last month, more than a month ago, they had Marc Desaulniers, who is a very good but relatively anonymous congressman, introduce a bill called the Break the Gridlock Act. Just filed it, no one paid attention, it sat there for 30 days.

And if you don't get the signatures on this petition on May 16th, it will become ripe and that will get. And if you assume that the date is early June, there is it. This is not easy to do. There are challenges which we'll talk about.

But the logistics, The Democrats solve the logistics problem by thinking ahead and being very smart and strategic about it.

Still, like, they're still against that. But you could imagine some kind of negotiation between Democrats and some of the more moderate Republicans. That if we get to the break glass moment, then the Republicans sign. Like, if Kevin McCarthy and Biden talks collapse, if no one can come to an agreement, we're heading towards the disaster.

You could imagine some of these Republicans signing on with Democrats for maybe some other fig leaf negotiation. And then you put that all in the shell of a bill because the actual bill hasn't been written yet. And then you're off to the races. So it's a possible one that that's again the biggest challenge left. They have solved the logistics challenge.

The biggest challenge left is they don't have five Republicans yet on this bill. All right, what about Biden? Declaring the debt limit is unconstitutional under the 14th Amendment? This is part of the 14th Amendment. Here's what it says.

The validity of the public debt of the United States authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. This is what the clause reads. The 14th Amendment is obviously the amendment after the civil War that grants citizenship to everyone in the country. It's seen as a civil rights amendment, obviously. But it also included this provision about public debt. Because they wanted to protect the public debt held by the federal government and prohibit the payment of debt held by the Confederate States. Should they regain power in the Congress again? So it was done because of that.

But the language is there, and so a lot of legal scholars have said. Well, if if the debt shall not be questioned, then the debt limit is unconstitutional. So what do you think about that play? Biden just goes out there and says the debt limit is unconstitutional.

And do we really want to put the fate of the global economy in the hands of these courts? In a process that ends in the Supreme Court? And even if you get the right ruling in the beginning, so let's say we get to the end. And I guess this is maybe how this could play out. If there is no solution. We cross X date.

X Date is the date when which. We have no more money to pay any more bills. And the United States just yell at the president, just say we're going to keep paying the bills because of the 14th Amendment. And so therefore, that could stave off potential collapse for a few days, and people, veterans, social security recipients, others could continue to get there. Those chests continue to flow, and that would prevent, like real individual harm to people.

But what can happen very shortly after that is someone files a suit, court stays, it says you can't do it and now we're in crisis. Or you have competing rulings and it goes right to Supreme Court. And how do the markets respond to that level of uncertainty?

Both our markets and across the board.

And that's not the case because there is a process here to keep the markets in line. And the courts have a lot. Will have a lot to say about it.

Please let us know, did we talk, did, did we consider this in the in 2011 in the White House? Like, what did, what did Geithner say about this? what did the lawyers say about this?

And that could be something that comes out of this is to try to align the debt limit and the UM and the budget and the government funding bills. The problem with that, for Democrats is now you're just going to have this negotiation again. But you've handed the leverage on government funding to the Republicans because you're once again doing it under the ticking clock of default. This is the situation Obama found himself in in 2013..

People forget this. The government was actually shut down during the debt limit crisis because the two were aligned. Um, because they had actually, after the 2011 crisis, started to align them to make it easier to lift the debt limit. And then the Republicans found a reason not to do that again. And so, yes, you would have. You'd have another three months to possibly come up with a solution, but it's a pretty narrow menu.

And all of the option, we've been talking about it for months, and all of the options suck for someone. The either Democrats. Well, something they don't want. McCarthy loses his job, something goes to the courts. And so, uh. But let's move the crisis further along and hope that something changes. But I don't suspect that a lot will change.

And there could be a shutdown eventually, and they'll have to get out of the shutdown eventually. And the only way to get out of the shutdown is to make some deal about the budget that enough Republicans can live with so that it passes the House. That is true, like at some point, at some point, they're going to have to negotiate over the budget.

There's a way to prioritize the people who are most vulnerable in one situation. No such processes or experience exists for default.

Now, I guess that only works if there's an agreement.

All right, so I feel like we're in the middle of a reexamination right now. For kids that were born in the eighties, in this period of growing acceptance, but not acceptance, uh, and I think this book is about what it means to grapple with being gay. When there were, in some ways, sort of bromides of tolerance, but a deeper way in which being gay was still something to be afraid of. Or afraid you were, um, the kids today, they have no idea what it was like. Yeah, well, that was a one of the thing that I had to keep thinking about while I was writing it.

It was like, will the youths get this? like, will it, will it mean anything? yeah, will this kind of story matter, will it resonate?

Remember when Richard Hatch won Survivor that first spoiler alert for season one of Survivor from the year 1999?

Did you watch Survivor in 1999, when Richard Hatch won? I think so well, my parents were big Survivor fans, I'm sure I watched it.

Do you think it was good or bad that, uh, that, uh, a nudist gay man won survivor and then didn't pay taxes? Okay, well, I don't know anything about it, so I don't know that. So he won survivor, he was out, he was a real snake, he was the first person to really crack that. You could kind of like, you know, you could, like, make alliances and stuff.

He, really, he was really ahead of the curve. It's why he won the first season and he was gay and it was a big deal, but he was also a nudist. And then he didn't pay taxes on the money and he had to got in trouble. I think he may have gone to jail, didn't he go to jail?

We think Richard Hatch may have gone to jail for not paying taxes. Um, I mean, you should pay your taxes. So I wonder it's like, you know, the level of exposure you get from Richard Hatch? Was he out on Survivor?

Yes, he was out on Survivor. It was a huge deal. It's 1999. Wow, and he's, and he's unapologetic, but he's also a nudist and making people a little bit uncomfortable by being naked all the time.

Huh, but gay people are complicated. I get well. Yeah, I guess those are two completely different things, and that's the most important thing, yeah.

But to your point in the book about not having gay role models when there aren't that many out gay people? All of a sudden? Richard Hatch is a representative of the gay community. There aren't a lot of other people who are out on television, and he's a gay nudist who doesn't pay his taxes. Yeah, I can see how people would quickly label someone like that the same thing, like, uh, will and grace.

Yeah, you know, I love Will and Grace, but Will and Grace was so problematic for me. Because if I laugh too much, I was afraid that my family would think I liked it a little bit too much. And there might be a reason behind that. Um, but then, of course, you know, Will and Grace, uh, only only showed gay men portrayed in certain ways. You know, there's only certain types of gay men that you could be. Or we had to be the butt of the joke to make everybody else comfortable, right? You know, Jack is fun and loving life.

And then Will kind of is lonely and single and quite unhappy a lot of the time, but successful. He's a professional, so he's accepted because he's this like suit wearing successful man who puts, you know, career above love. And and I think that was a whatever, that's a that's a soapbox that we probably don't have time for today.

Do you think that the gay community was hurt by the number of turtlenecks people were wearing on those shows? Because if you have a short neck, turtlenecks aren't for you. turtlenecks aren't for me. Are you just upset cause you can't wear a turtle?

I am upset that I can't wear a turtleneck, you can't wear a turtleneck. Are you part of the short neck community? I don't. Maybe that's what they would tell me at the department store, but I feel like everyone rocks this like suit turtleneck look.

I can't do it, I can't do it at all. Do you feel that your head looks too low? I just feel like, really funky. Why do you think that is?

Is it because you have a short neck? Should we talk about it? I think it's because I have a really short neck. I think I have a really short neck. And I think the turtlenecks on those shows really kind of hurt me.

I'm really sorry about that, thanks for saying that. All of the things going on in the eighties and nineties, I really don't like the Turtlenecks.

Uh, so who were, you know? You talked about not having a lot of gay role models in the book? Who stood out to you growing up, like who did you look to? Well, I start well, I didn't really have that many role models. You know, there was will and grace.

And, of course, at this time, I also didn't know that some of these celebrities that I had grown up with were gay. Um, cause that was also something that wasn't talked about. But then Ellen, who was in the closet, then they all were.

Oh, yeah, exactly. Or some of them, you know, still have to be. But Ellen was huge because my mom loved Ellen, uh, and that to me was like a little sliver of hope, yeah.

Like, maybe, you know, she's a successful person. She makes my mom laugh. They're okay with that, and we don't really talk about the lesbian thing. It's funny.

I wrote, I brought. I was going to ask you about Ellen, too, because I didn't realize how much Ellen meant to me. Until Ellen was getting the Presidential Medal of Freedom from President Obama. And I realized in watching her get that medal that I went through this whole cycle of finding out. Ellen was going to come out. Watching it, watching the whole news cycle, being incredibly riveted and invested in it, and never saying it out loud. Because it wasn't for another couple of years that I ended up coming out and I. It wasn't until I saw Ellen accepting that medal of freedom that I'd never even spoken out loud about. How, how much that had meant to me at the time. Did you talk about it, or was it just an entirely internal experience? Talk about Ellen?

Like, yeah, in watching Ellen come out, you didn't say a word about it, it was just something that you experienced completely privately. Yeah, so I didn't, you know, I didn't come out until I was 18. Um, you know, these are conversations I've had with my family after the fact.

Yeah, and there's so many signs along the way, right? Like, Yeah, definitely should have not. And it's because we didn't talk about them. Like, we didn't talk about this huge moment. Uh, you know, in pop culture, when Ellen came out, uh, until, until much later.

Um, and that was really emotional for me, too, watching her get that medal. Um, because I think some people may assume that we've progressed so rapidly. And then when you really take a moment and and look at history. Just like, like the last 34 years of my life, like, what has happened, like being born at the tail end of the AIDS epidemic to today? Where? Like, understanding that I'm in Washington with a partner who serves, you know, uh? And that would not have been the reality 30 years ago. Like watching Ellen get that medal in 20 years and understanding that. Like, she lost everything when she came out, when, when her character came out, when she came out. And that so much has happened in that very short period of time, but I feel like our memories don't keep up with that. That timeline, understanding that it's, that timeline is actually very, very short. Yeah, it's, it's, um, it is amazing.

And I think one thing that I I think about when it comes to the amount of change we've had is. Even as there was this conversation around shifting norms, around accepting difference on sexual orientation, there wasn't a conversation about masculinity at all. And you talk about this a little bit in the book, about, like, not wanting to play football, but wanting to go fishing. Not feeling totally like, like you're one of the boys. Um, and I do wonder, like that, that that does seem to be changing now. But you talk a little bit about that, like the kind of your relationship. To just forget sexual orientation, just masculinity and being, uh, you know, oh yeah, I I mean, masculinity had to look a very certain way.

You know the circles that I was growing up in church and 4-h, and um, you know, our. Our high school was like the school where people would occasionally drive their snowmobiles to school. Or like their tractors, right? Or, you know, people who clung to, like, very certain idols of, um, manhood or masculinity. And I just didn't see a space for me. And I sometimes I feel like I have to extend them. Like a a shred of pity, too, because I feel like we're all just trying to blend in. And like, the. I didn't really have a group to get caught up in, and some of them just got caught up in that, right?

Yeah, it's like performance. I wonder, like, I guess I'd be interested to hear you talk a little bit about, like, what you want the younger generation to take away from this experience of growing up? At a time when you really were expected to conform like, that was a you felt that pressure every day, yeah.

I mean, the I certainly wrote the book from my experience, the experience of a gay person conforming and surviving, coming out, and now reflecting back on that. But I think the book is for for any young person who's ever felt like a fish out of water, or a person who has felt like they have, they're forced to conform. And I also think it'll be a great resource for teachers and parents to understand what young people are going through or what they could be going through. And you might be unaware of that.

And also the pain and the hurt that is inflicted upon young people by ignorance. And the good that can come from having these conversations and making space for everyone.

So I want to have I have some silly questions for you. But before we get there, those weren't the silly questions. No, just buckle up. I thought the turtleneck was a silly question, that was it.

That was more of an aside, I think it was just an aside that came to me in the moment. You know you go through your first round of coming out, you know you had a bush bumper sticker on your car at some point. Is that right? yeah.

I carry around even to this day, even in moments where I'm using a voice that isn't as effeminate as I might otherwise have used. Are podcast voices? This is my, I mean, I don't know, I mean, this is our podcast voice, but I don't know, I don't know if. Is this as gay as my voice could be?

Maybe, but it could be gayer. I totally, I totally didn't know what you're saying. Yeah, I drop into my podcast voice sometimes, but see, but even as you say it, your podcast voice is a straighter voice.

It's a more deeper voice, and even when I'm asking a serious, I'm getting sillier. Now. My voice is getting bigger and gayer, but when I ask a question about something important, my voice becomes like this, Yeah, I don't know that.

That's natural, I think that might be a performance. And Mike, I'm. I wonder if you feel that that even now you're writing this book about sort of what it means to try to figure out how to be yourself. But even now don't you do you feel right now that you can ever kind of be outside of the bounds you set when you were a kid, when you were living by these fears? Is that the gayest your voice can be?

Oh, no, it can be gayer. you should see me on karaoke night. see, it can be gayer, we can all be gayer.

We can use gayer voices.

I'm going to use a gayer voice for the rest of this episode. I think we're. We're constantly coming to terms with who we thought we had to be when we were younger, who we thought we could be when we came out. And then the space in between, where you're, like, still policing yourself? yeah, are you still doing that?

You're still policing yourself well, also because of, you know, where I'm at in life. And I know that so many people are watching everything that I do and everything that my family does. And, uh, and I'm, you know, pairing that with the absolute destruction of morality on the other side of the aisle right now, yeah.

And understanding that how they will weaponize my family, my children and my performance of masculinity or identity. I'm conscious of that more than I would like to admit, because that's a it's a big deal. You know, I certainly never thought that I would be in this chair one day, you know, I never thought that my family would be who we are today. Um, just this weekend, uh, Pete and I were pushing the stroller and there was like these corner preachers in our neighborhood and we walked by. I'm like, we had just gone to a little indie bookstore celebrating like Indie Bookstore Saturday.

And we, like, sat down with the kids and like, picked out some books and like, did drag brunch coloring sheets. no drag brunch. Tara wasn't performing on Saturday. Uh, but you know, you're having a great morning, like celebrating our neighborhood and going to this little store.

And and then we're just like pushing the stroller, we're going to go to another indie bookstore. And uh, these corner preachers are like, look at these homosexuals like those aren't their kids, and they're just like yelling in their microphones at us.

And then I'm in my head, like, what do I want to say as a parent? What do I want to say as a human? And what do I want to say as a gay man, you know?

And and then, of course, you know, I'm like, I don't want to say anything. Because I don't want to give this person a platform, and I don't want to, I don't want this person to know that I care about what they have to think, you know, but it just sometimes it just comes, not creeping in, but crashing in, but so that's when it's crashing in. But what about the times when it's not so clear? Like you, you were hinting at it a little bit.

I'm actually genuinely curious about like moments when you feel this sort of creeping heteronormativity, this desire to make sure that you're that you're being a. Not just being good parents, not just being a good spouse, but doing it in a way that is good for the movement. That helps the cause amongst people that might not be totally comfortable yet, what does that look like? Yeah, that one's really confusing to me because I remember, like, I remember being on the cover of Time magazine, which was like a life shock. And then, like, the conversation around, it was like, Oh, they're just performing heteronormativity like heteronormativity. And like, to me, I was like, I'm just, I just had my armor on my partner, you know? Posing for this photo.

Like, I'm not trying to perform anything, it's just who I am same thing with, like the kids, like I've always wanted kids.

I've always wanted to be a dad. In fact, I sort of knew I wanted to be a dad more than I knew I wanted to be a teacher or a writer. It's just something I've always wanted. And now I have this great family and a loving spouse and two really cool kids. And I never get around to sending the Christmas cards, but, you know, if I did, they'd probably be cute. But it's not like that's not something I feel like I'm performing. But I understand why people assume that. But also like, can't, can't queer people just be families, too.

Like, what's heteronormative about it? Can't we just also just want to raise a family and be a family, right, right? But it is there's. I do sometimes think you talked about this with Pat, that I sometimes you and Pete, especially Pete gets, you know, certainly gay enough to be despised on Fox News and to be held out. An example, and to be made, like, you know, to be used as a cudgel during a natural disaster or a train derailment in a way that no previous secretary of Transportation would ever be used. You're having kids being held up, paternity leave or parental leave, being treated as some some horrible thing to take, even though everybody takes it.

So draws that that acrimony? And yet, because there is, on the other side, the sense that what you're doing is criticized as being not gay enough, right? That he's not Met Gala gay, he's McKinsey gay. And that that's something that means there's, no, there's not the same level of, well, it's not as fun or it's not as exciting to us anymore.

It's, it's, it's. It doesn't get the same level of kind of love from the left either. Do you find that, you know, does that? does that ring true to you? I certainly am on social media, so, you know, yeah, but I. I also get it like, I get wanting to see progress happen faster. And I especially understand from when I'm talking to young people who get really frustrated. Uh, about the slowness of progress in our country. Where they might see someone like me come in and sit across from them and be like, you don't? You don't know what my life is like, you don't know what it's like.

That's just why I try to do as much listening as I can and growing. I think it's important that we all commit to constantly growing and listening. Which I don't think the other side of the aisle gets like with this stuff, like with masculinity, the culture wars, especially trans Americans. Rather than like, pause and listen to the wider American medical community advocacy groups. They've just like built up a wall around them, right? Like we're clinging to, like, what we know.

We don't want to do anything different. Um, and I see it differently. All right before we let you go, we're doing rapid fire, okay?

All right, let's get into it. Are you going to the Heiress tour? the What the Heiress Tour? Taylor Swift?

No, I couldn't get tickets. Uh, favorite Taylor Swift song?

It was like a dad dancing with his daughter at a at a Taylor Swift concert. And there are all these empty chairs next to them. It's like, Excuse me, where was this and when was this?

Um okay, favorite Taylor Swift song, Um mine's Exile. I love that song, Exile.

Really, yeah, I don't know. I'd like the moody stuff, I like poignancy.

I like, mean, all too well, all too well, so great. That was a good breakup song for me, too. What's the worst gift Pete has ever given you?

Oh, um, he actually didn't. I dropped so many hints that I thought it would be really cute to give each other a gift on our wedding day, so many hints. Like, I really liked this tradition that I've heard from people. Um, and so I got him cufflinks, and I, like, had a friend like, sneak into his, you know, room the day of the wedding and like, leave the car in the cufflinks.

Um, thoughtful, yeah, and nothing, nothing, and I will never, ever, uh, let him forget it. What is the gayest thing?

You won't let him forget it. What is the gayest thing you and Pete watch on TV?

We don't watch a lot of TV, but I guess the White Lotus Big Jennifer Coolidge family, I don't really think it's gay. We'll count it. You both watch White Lotus together. Yeah, okay.

I mean, busy guy, we don't watch a lot of TV, mostly books, huh? We don't watch books on the TV, we usually read them.

It's all right. What's one gay value you hope to impart to your children? A gay value? Yeah, gay value.

Don't wear white after Labor Day, don't mix blue and navy. Um, love each other. I don't know you, tell me it could mean anything you wanted to me.

I don't know, I'm just trying to raise them to be like kind, inclusive people. But I I guess, uh, they do, uh. Like their fair share of show tunes right now. Okay, we do show tunes at breakfast.

Like, No, Andrew Lloyd Webber. That could be like a rule. Uh, why are gay guys such bad? Drivers? Are they? yeah.

Yeah, you're not aware of that. This is a stigma I don't know about. You know what I'm talking about, you know what I'm talking about.

Okay, well, uh, why? why don't you answer the question? I don't know. I actually don't know why I'm such a bad driver. If I knew, I'd be a little bit better at it.

Huh? I think I'm a great driver, but everyone thinks they're a great driver, that's the whole problem. I got two kids in the back of my minivan. I know I'm a good guy.

It's a minivan. oh, it's a minivan. it's a plug in hybrid minivan. a plug in hybrid minivan, you know, it is.

I don't know, I think that's a hate crime. What, as kid? What is a kid? Did you see on TV that you completely loved but knew on some level you shouldn't, because it wasn't what boys loved? Mine is when Miss Piggy and Joan Rivers go crazy with the makeup in.

Muppets take Manhattan. Remember that? Do you remember that? I feel like you've got way too much time to prepare for this?

I thought it was five seconds before this interview. Olivia can attest Muppets take Manhattan Miss Piggy. She's disappointed in her Kermie.

She comes back all despondent. Joan Rivers gives her a makeover. They lose it, they get fired from the department store. Do you remember that?

No, are you gay or not, I know well. You tell all these great stories like, Do you understand how like, closeted and dramatic my childhood was?

Like, I was probably mucking a barn and like you were cleaning the fish, you were doing the fish things and goats with their goats. What happens when you clean it, I don't know.

From Look, Michigan, I know where it is. Yeah, you got to watch Joan Rivers and Miss Piggy. And my parents would probably like, turn it off and go outside and clean the barn, and so that's what you did.

You clean the barn, yeah, but God, what was the question? The gayest thing I watched? What's the gayest thing you saw as a kid on TV but knew you weren't supposed to like?

Spice World Okay, that's good. spice world counts, yeah.

That that's camp, that's, I think that's weird. Um, when I was at summer camp, I didn't like playing all the sports and I wanted to come home. And the owner of the camp called my mother and said, For boys like Jonathan, that's why we do the musicals.

Care to comment? No. But I, I just want to go back to like the conversation about like, are you gay? are you not gay enough? And then you just asked me if I am gay? Cause I didn't see Miss Piggy and Joan Rivers on television.

Hey, I want you to know something. I just feel like the bus came out of nowhere and I got thrown right underneath it. Um, well, if there's a bus coming out of nowhere, talk to your husband. That sounds like a transportation problem to me. I have never said that I wasn't a hypocrite.

I'm a proud hypocrite, I don't always make sense and I'm not coherent, and I stand by that. That's that's good of you. Um, do you think this went okay?

How do you feel about this? This was, uh, this was certainly an experience that we all shared together.

In this room, how do you feel like it went? I just want to know that you felt good about it. Oh yeah, so you didn't get to go on.

Um, this is stuff I could talk about all day, though. I think these are really important conversations, so I appreciate having it. And you couldn't go on. Kelly Clarkson because of the writer's strike, yeah.

So now this is like, and we're supporting unions, but this is so. This became like, you flew out here and now you're just basically doing this. Come on, John.

Don't be mean to yourself like that. Um, anything else we should talk about? Uh, the book is, I have something to tell you. Thanks for, thanks for having the conversation cause.

I also think it's a really important that, like, you know, you have this platform and it's great that you get to talk about whatever I want. Well, yeah, but I mean, sure, I'm sure that it's important to you too to reflect on some of these things. And I'm glad people listening finally found out that I'm gay, yeah.

I think this is going to be a bombshell for a lot of your listeners. And, um, and my parents, Oh my god, my parents listen to this.

Mom, dad, I have something to tell you, I'm still still gay. Oh yeah, you did the book title, Thank you.

All right, let's leave it there. I think we should, we should stop now. Justin Buttigieg everybody.

It was three against one. At least. Jumping a guy like that is dishonorable. Obviously, it's not how white men fight yet. Suddenly, I found myself rooting for the mob against the man, hoping they'd hit him harder, kill him. I really wanted them to hurt the kid.

I could taste it. Then, somewhere deep in my brain, an alarm went off. This isn't good for me, I'm becoming something I don't want to be becoming.

Yeah, so what do you think? Is this believable as the final straw that caused Fox to fire Tucker?

But this idea that somehow, the, you know, the thoughtful people at Fox News were shocked by this revelation. They're not watching the fucking show, that's what the show is about.

We have a moral obligation to admit the world's poor, they tell us, even if it makes our own country poor and dirtier and more divided. So it might be time for Joe Biden to let us know what Contagi Brown Jackson's LSAT score was. What else are you doing, the LSAT?

I mean, everyone wants to make a racial issue out of it. Ooh, the you know, white replacement there. No, no, no, this is a voting rights question. I have less political power because they're importing a brand new electorate.

Why should I sit back and take that? And the truth is, unregulated mass immigration has badly hurt this country's natural landscape. We're still not precisely sure how George Floyd died. Very few unarmed Black men are killed by white cops these days. Where's George Floyd when you need him?

The only job training program this administration has gotten behind in two and a half years is getting Black people to sell more weed in the cities.

Democrats importing a new electorate just to win an election. And what he said in the text is just, white people are better than black people, essentially, is what he said in the text. And there's a but again, there's racist intent to both. One on the show is a strategy to make white people think, Oh, you're not the racists, they're being racist against you.

And in the text, it's just, Oh, no, no, no, white people wouldn't act like that, that's just the behavior of nonwhite people. And so I do wonder if the for the Fox executives, they were like, Well, that's it that comes out in court, that's too, it's too honest.

It's too, it's too much of a pulling back the veil for Tucker.

No, all of these like, obviously it's all financial, but I do wonder if it's just like there's a. There was a number of things around Tucker and this was sort of the straw that broke the camel's back. I could, I could see that.

But that's, that's, that's not the grievance, politics and the racism that upsets them.

Anyway, uh, thank you Chasten Buttigieg for stopping by the studio. Everyone have a great weekend and we will talk to you next week.

Thanks to Hallie Kiefer, Madeline Herringer, Ari Schwartz, Andy Taft and Justine Howell for production support, and to our digital team. Elijah Cohn, Phoebe Bradford, Mia Kelman, Ben Hefcoat and David Toles. Subscribe to Pod Save America on YouTube to catch full episodes, exclusive content, and other community events. Find us at YouTube.com slash at Pod Save America.