How badly has US diplomacy been damaged by the war in Gaza?

2024-04-12 00:27:25

Every Friday, Guardian columnist and former Washington correspondent, Jonathan Freedland, invites experts to help analyse the latest in American politics. From politicians to journalists covering the White House and beyond, Jonathan and his guests give listeners behind the scenes access to how the American political machine works.

2Speaker 2
00:00.00 – 00:01.44

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The war between Israel and Hamas in Gaza has now been going on for six months.

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Since the October 7th Hamas attack against Israel that began the war, the death toll

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in Gaza has soared to more than 33,000.

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Hamas continues to hold some 130 Israelis and others hostage, while in Gaza, the more

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recent fear has been of shortages of food and medicine, with experts warning of a man-made

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famine.

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Entire cities in Gaza in ruins, millions of Palestinians displaced, and the humanitarian

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crisis continues to worsen, with warnings of famine and starvation from the UN.

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And although criticism of Israel's conduct of the war has been growing in recent months,

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last week there was a marked shift in tone from Western leaders.

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After an Israeli airstrike in Gaza killed the seven aid workers for the organization

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World Central Kitchen, President Biden is criticizing Israel, saying he is outraged

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and heartbroken.

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The most notable change has come from U.S. President Joe Biden, who went from saying

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this back in October.

1Speaker 1
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Israel has the right, and I would add responsibility, to respond to the slaughter of their people.

2Speaker 2
01:54.02 – 01:59.22

To this week turning on Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu specifically, declaring

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Israel's approach to the war a mistake.

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So what has led to this faltering in U.S. support for Israel?

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Will Joe Biden go where many in his party urge him to go, and stop supplying arms to

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America's biggest ally in the Middle East?

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And, in an election year that could see the removal of both Biden and Netanyahu, what

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does the future hold for the relationship between the U.S. and Israel, and between Democrats

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and the country, when this war eventually ends?

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I'm Jonathan Friedland, columnist at The Guardian, and this is Politics Weekly America.

1Speaker 1
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We now literally, in my judgment, confront a strategic cul-de-sac.

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And right now, I see no way out that would, on the other side, produce the kind of stability

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and security that would be peacemakers, including in the administration.

2Speaker 2
02:56.28 – 03:01.74

Aaron David Miller served for two decades as a State Department analyst, negotiator,

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and advisor on issues in the region.

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He now serves as senior fellow at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, focusing

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on U.S. foreign policy.

1Speaker 1
03:12.82 – 03:20.14

Right now, I cannot think of what the more hopeful course corrective is going to be to

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a conflict that has deeply traumatized both Israeli and Palestinian society, who are,

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I won't say they're leaderless.

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They're simply led by two individuals, respectively, who are much more concerned with keeping their

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seats than turning the parade of horrors we've witnessed since October, on October 7th, and

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up until now, converting that to some sort of more hopeful pathway for Israelis and Palestinians.

2Speaker 2
03:50.46 – 03:54.88

The change in attitude, we heard just at the top of the program, the voice of the president

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how it's changed since October, when it was a warm embrace from Netanyahu, and then this

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kind of ultimatum that he delivered to the Israeli prime minister in a phone call about

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a week ago.

1Speaker 1
04:06.52 – 04:11.56

The president today strongly implied he may condition American military aid to Israel

2Speaker 2
04:11.56 – 04:17.30

on whether Netanyahu makes immediate changes over humanitarian concerns in Gaza, including

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getting to a ceasefire.

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Obviously, a big turning point was the killing of those World Central Kitchen aid workers,

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but even before then, before last week, why do you think we were starting to see signs

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of a gap widening between Washington and the government in Jerusalem?

1Speaker 1
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I think that clearly the exponential rise of Palestinian deaths, the humanitarian catastrophe,

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and I think the World Central Kitchen tragedy, I think, has simply amplified and magnified

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both the president's opposition to the way the Israelis are conducting the war and to

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the man who is conducting it.

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But I will make two additional points.

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Number one, and I've characterized this policy over the last six months as passive aggressive.

2Speaker 2
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Yes.

1Speaker 1
05:14.10 – 05:20.56

Until this very day, despite the change in tone, despite the change in rhetoric, the

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Biden administration has been reluctant and has not decided as of yet to impose a single

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cost or consequence, Jonathan, that you and I as normal humans would consider significant,

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let alone severe pressure.

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The administration has approached that point by adopting a position arguing that the threat

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of leverage, we will judge our policy in Gaza depending on your performance.

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He's put Benjamin Netanyahu on probation, but at the same time, he's given him a test

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that is very easy, in my judgment, for the Israelis to pass.

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It's a test linked not to the application of military strategy and the exponential rise

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of Palestinian deaths.

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It's a test that revolves around the issue of humanitarian assistance.

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And you now have seen, over the last several days, almost 500 trucks per day get into Gaza.

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The other dog that hasn't yet barked, which I think will definitely constrain the degree

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to which this administration is prepared to pressure Israel, is if in fact the Iranians

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make a strategic decision to respond to the killings of four or five senior IRGC, Iranian

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Revolutionary Guard Corps generals.

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President Biden warned that Iran is threatening to launch a significant attack after Israel

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struck the Iranian consulate in Syria 10 days ago.

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Mr. Biden was speaking hours after the Iranian supreme leader again said Israel would be

2Speaker 2
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punished for the strike on its consulate.

1Speaker 1
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If in fact the Iranians do this, which holds out the very real prospects of a direct

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counter-strike by Israel on Iran proper, you could end up with the one thing the Middle

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East has never experienced before, which is a genuine regional confrontation.

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That's going to ease tensions between the U.S. and Israel.

2Speaker 2
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And the president said that America's support for Israel in this situation, in its standoff

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with Iran, will be ironclad.

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And so even as there are an attempt to escalate the rhetoric in terms of its handling of humanitarian

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aid in the fight with Gaza, there is this promise for full solidarity and support.

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At key moments, the administration has increased the pressure on Israel.

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One was this move, which a lot of people have been saying would never happen, which is the

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U.S. withholding its protective veto at the United Nations Security Council.

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Instead, the U.S. allowed through, as it were, a resolution demanding an immediate ceasefire

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in language that certainly the administration had not been using until then.

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But I want to focus on one big moment, partly because of the politics of it.

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And that's not something the administration did, although it gave it its kinds of blessing.

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And that was this speech by Chuck Schumer, the Democratic majority leader in the Senate.

1Speaker 1
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The U.S. government should demand that Israel conduct itself with a future two-state solution

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in mind.

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We should not be forced into a position of unequivocally supporting the actions of an

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Israeli government that include bigots who reject the idea of a Palestinian state.

2Speaker 2
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Just explain quite the meaning of that moment when he made this very impassioned speech

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on the floor of the Senate denouncing Netanyahu and saying there should be elections in Israel.

1Speaker 1
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I believe a new election is the only way to allow for a healthy and open decision-making

2Speaker 2
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process about the future of Israel.

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A lot of Israelis are saying, well, when you've lost Chuck Schumer, you know, you've lost

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America in effect.

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Explain to listeners why that was so important and Schumer's particular link to Israel.

1Speaker 1
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I mean, you have one of the most pro-Israeli politicians, arguably the highest elected

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Jewish official in the United States, basically criticizing the prime minister.

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It's the longest governing prime minister in the history of the state of Israel.

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I think the Schumer speech was significant not for what it produced, but what it reflected.

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It reflected the estrangement of much of the mainstream Democratic Party away from

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the Netanyahu government and Israeli policies toward the war.

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It also reflected the partisanship that has come to characterize what has long been a

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solid and steadfast bipartisan commitment to support for Israel.

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You now have a situation where the administration is navigating the fine line between a Republican

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party that has emerged as the Israel can do no wrong party and a deeply divided Democratic

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Party, progressives who are arguing for significant and severe imposition of costs and consequences

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for Israeli actions, and more than a few mainstream Democrats.

2Speaker 2
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A new letter signed by nearly 40 Democratic Congress members, including former House Speaker

1Speaker 1
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Nancy Pelosi, urges the administration to reconsider its recent decision to authorize

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a transfer of a new arms package to Israel and to withhold future offensive arms transfers

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until a full investigation is completed.

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Who for the first time are openly talking about conditioning or restricting U.S. military

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assistance, but it has produced a downside and that it has opened up the opportunity

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for the Republican Party, presumptive Republican nominee, to capitalize on an already manipulative

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Israeli prime minister who is an Israeli Republican.

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We do know that House Speaker Mike Johnson recently spoke over the phone with Israeli

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Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

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And probably the biggest message that the House Speaker shared with him is he wanted

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to show solidarity and support for Israel.

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And he even spoke about plans to possibly invite the Israeli prime minister here to

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D.C. on Capitol Hill to speak to a joint session of Congress to speak to both the House and Senate.

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I don't think the Schumer speech moved the needle as much as maybe Chuck Schumer thought

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it would. Yes, the White House pronounced the president said he thought it was a good

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speech and reflects public concerns about certain aspects of Israeli policy.

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It didn't move the needle much in Congress.

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The reaction in Israel was actually underwhelming.

2Speaker 2
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The question I was going to move on to, though, was the link in between Biden and Schumer

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and the point you made about the Democrats.

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Here are two big pro-Israel people, Biden and Schumer.

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The question I was going to ask is, to what extent were they really having to operate

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politically, that they were having to placate or address that view that on the left of the

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party, progressive Democrats who are much, much more critical or much more distant from

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Israel than either of them.

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Yes, we've talked about their sort of heart and their convictions.

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But is this a sign that that older generation, the Bidens and the Schumers, are having to

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adapt and adjust to what is now a political, a domestic political reality inside their

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own party?

1Speaker 1
12:51.92 – 12:52.16

You're right.

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I don't think there's any doubt generational changes, the diverse diversities in Congress,

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the growing upset among many young Americans to question the value affinity, the shared

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values between Israel and the United States, and whether or not there's a high coincidence

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of common interests.

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So there's no question that both Schumer and the president, the president facing an

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election that could be decided by three or four states and under 100,000 votes, the so-called

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uncommitted, those Democrats who basically at least have sent signals that they don't

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know what they're going to do on November 5th.

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They certainly won't vote for Donald Trump, but they may not vote and they may not vote

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as a consequence of what they see as America's acquiescence.

2Speaker 2
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And there were some 40,000 of those uncommitted voters in the Wisconsin primary, and that's

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a must-win state.

1Speaker 1
13:46.32 – 13:46.46

Right.

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So it's not just Michigan.

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But I come back to, again, I have still not seen this administration, even in the face

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of this political pressure, and the fact that the president could lose.

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He could lose to the presumptive nominee of the Republican Party, which would be a terrible

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outcome for this republic.

2Speaker 2
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You're not naming him, but you're talking about Donald Trump.

1Speaker 1
14:11.72 – 14:12.16

Exactly.

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Our foreign policy.

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And yet the president has still, six months in, refused to pull any of the levers that

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he has had from the beginning of this conflict and pressure Israel.

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Number one, to restrict condition or end military assistance to Israel.

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Number two, voting for someone else's U.N.

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Security Council resolution that is highly critical of Israel, something the United States

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has not done since 1980 when it comes to the Israeli-Palestinian issue.

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And the third lever, which the president has not yet been willing to pull, which is to

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abandon this notion of Israeli-Hamas negotiations and simply call, untethered from anything

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else, for a comprehensive cessation of hostilities.

2Speaker 2
15:05.92 – 15:07.34

So the question, then, is why?

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I mean, those are the three levers he could pull.

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It's hurting him politically that he's not.

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Why doesn't Biden do it?

1Speaker 1
15:13.58 – 15:19.94

His support, not for Netanyahu, but for his idea and conception of Israel and for Israeli

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security is so deeply imprinted on his emotional and his political DNA.

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And by the way, his decades of service in the Senate has convinced him that this is

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good for America.

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It's good politics and it's good policy.

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Does Joe Biden want to make a point in this war or does he want to make a difference?

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There is no way he can change the pictures in Gaza, surging humanitarian assistance,

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freeing the hostages, de-escalating the Israeli military campaign, let alone his hopes.

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And they're still actively planning for an Israeli-Saudi regional deal involving the

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Palestinians and support for a Palestinian state.

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There is no way he can do any of this if he chooses to willfully break and renounce

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this Israeli government and the Israeli public who support continued military operations

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against Hamas.

2Speaker 2
16:25.06 – 16:27.10

In other words, he's got to sort of be in it to win it.

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He's got to have a relationship with Israel if he's going to get any progress on those

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things.

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But just on the other side of the dynamic, the other end of the telescope, if you like,

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people are very used to hearing Israel described as being reliant, dependent on the United

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States, that America is Israel's number one ally.

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Why then, how can you explain how the prime minister of the country that is dependent

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on the United States for its arms, as well as a whole lot of other stuff, is not complying

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with these requests?

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Why is Netanyahu thumbing his nose, and much worse, at a country on which he depends?

1Speaker 1
17:05.98 – 17:12.10

It's an existential issue, maybe for the people of Israel, for the country of Israel.

17:12.26 – 17:16.10

But his existential issue is about him.

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The pressure on Israel's prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, to call an early election

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has now spread to his own cabinet, with anti-Netanyahu protesters now camping outside the

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Israeli parliament.

17:27.64 – 17:29.80

It's about maintaining power at all costs.

17:29.98 – 17:35.82

That has turned a risk-averse Benjamin Netanyahu, which is the Benjamin Netanyahu of old,

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the one that Biden said, you know, I love you, Bibi, but I don't agree with a damn thing

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you were saying.

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That's gone.

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It's now the risk-ready Benjamin Netanyahu, the desperate Benjamin Netanyahu, the Benjamin

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Netanyahu that is prepared to put his own political survival above the best interests

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of his country.

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And certainly, if he's prepared to do that, he's also prepared to risk, significantly

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risk, his relationship, Israel's relationship, with the United States.

2Speaker 2
18:10.48 – 18:14.42

And that's partly because standing up to an American president plays well with his base

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and plays well with the ultranationalist wing of his coalition and their supporters out

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in the country.

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Do you think he actually wants to see Joe Biden fail and even fall because of those

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voters we've been talking about in Michigan and Wisconsin, young voters abandoning him?

18:32.94 – 18:37.32

Does Netanyahu think he will get better treatment from a returned Donald Trump?

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First of all, do you think he thinks that?

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And if he does, is it delusional for him to be thinking that Israel would get a better

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deal from a re-elected, returned Donald Trump?

1Speaker 1
18:49.52 – 18:53.92

Look, I think there are two politicians in the Middle East that have made calculations

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and bets when it comes to whether a Democratic president, one Joe Biden, who is now roundly

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criticized personally, both Mohammed bin Salman, aka MBS, and now has shown nothing but distaste

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and displeasure for Benjamin Netanyahu.

19:13.46 – 19:19.48

I don't know whether either of these two politicians believe they could get a better

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deal.

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I think they understand that they would face a president who has elevated the notion of

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America first to a standard that goes beyond any of his successors and someone who is just

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not interested other than driven by his own personal vanity and business interests in

19:44.90 – 19:47.02

what happens in Israel or Saudi Arabia.

19:47.28 – 19:53.04

I think had Donald Trump been president on October 7th, I don't think there would have

19:53.04 – 19:56.80

been a scintilla, an iota of humanitarian assistance.

19:57.14 – 20:03.06

There might have been concern for the six American hostages, but I doubt if Donald Trump

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would give a damn about the rest.

20:05.50 – 20:10.86

There would be no concern about settlement activity, no concern about human rights and

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MBS's repression in Saudi Arabia.

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But I think in the back of both of their minds, Joe Biden, in a way, is a speed bump.

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They would be better served by a laissez-faire president who could care less about international

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standards and conventions when it came to human rights, much less concerned beyond his

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own business purposes.

20:37.76 – 20:42.68

In the case of Israel, the fact that he fashions himself the most pro-Israeli president in

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the history of the universe, beyond his own vanity.

2Speaker 2
20:47.98 – 20:53.98

I'm hearing in your voice some degree of frustration, even bafflement, at the conduct of this

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relationship by the current administration.

20:57.32 – 21:02.32

Just tell us what you think the impact of the stance that Joe Biden has taken is.

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There are some who say it's a disaster because it makes America look weak, that it issues

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these demands or pleas of Israel that are then ignored.

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And others, you know, Jon Stewart this week, among many, saying that it makes America look

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hypocritical because it has one position on Ukraine where it denounces what Russia is

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doing.

21:23.82 – 21:29.64

Then this, obviously a completely different situation, but somehow, you know, siding with

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Israel when it is engaged in military operations in a next door territory.

21:36.08 – 21:37.44

Again, obviously different situations.

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But that accusation that it looks weak, it looks hypocritical.

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What do you think is the impact of the Joe Biden position, the Biden administration position

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on the Israel-Hamas war?

1Speaker 1
21:48.98 – 21:50.42

I mean, it's all that and more.

21:50.98 – 21:55.62

But I have to say, looking back, we fought the two longest wars in American history,

21:56.34 – 21:57.94

defying international conventions.

21:59.10 – 22:05.00

We killed scores of thousands of Iraqis and Afghans, innocents, not combatants, scores

22:05.00 – 22:06.30

of thousands, perhaps more.

22:07.34 – 22:09.08

And I was told we would never lead again.

22:09.44 – 22:15.14

In the wake of Afghanistan and the perceived betrayal of the Afghan people, I was told

22:15.78 – 22:16.76

we'd never lead again.

22:16.76 – 22:18.08

And then guess what?

22:18.98 – 22:24.60

Vladimir Putin invades Ukraine and the administration, it's an incomplete grade.

22:24.72 – 22:26.24

The semester clearly isn't over.

22:26.66 – 22:33.60

But I think by any standards, Joe Biden was capable of standing up and persuading key

22:33.60 – 22:39.64

elements of the international community to stand with him in an effort to support Ukraine.

22:40.42 – 22:44.62

So the question is, yes, we've taken a terrible reputational hit.

22:45.50 – 22:51.06

And the impact, the trauma, particularly on the Palestinian side, in the wake of our

22:51.06 – 22:58.58

acquiescence in Israeli actions, it will follow the United States for a long time to come.

22:59.50 – 23:05.52

We're still America with all of our imperfections, with all of our transgressions, with all of

23:05.52 – 23:06.58

our hypocrisies.

23:07.38 – 23:15.50

It may well be that the United States will be able, assuming it's willing, and it should

23:15.50 – 23:24.16

be risk ready on this, to fashion over time a better pathway for Israelis and Palestinians.

23:24.40 – 23:28.94

I certainly hope so, because to surrender to the forces of hopelessness and despair,

23:29.26 – 23:36.02

to admit that the United States simply has enabled, acquiesced in a conflict that is

23:36.02 – 23:41.52

going to leave both sides traumatized, simply I'm not prepared to accept.

23:43.08 – 23:47.40

And I understand the way people feel about the United States.

23:47.50 – 23:53.42

But I also know that under the right leadership, the United States can actually do things that

23:53.42 – 23:57.00

are quite consequential and good.

2Speaker 2
23:58.06 – 24:00.70

Well, that at least offers a glimmer of hope.

24:00.98 – 24:02.36

Thank you for that.

24:02.36 – 24:08.32

Before we let you go, we do like to ask our guest a what else question, something a little

24:08.32 – 24:08.78

bit different.

24:08.88 – 24:13.80

This week, Britain's Foreign Secretary, former Prime Minister David Cameron, made the journey

24:13.80 – 24:20.24

to Palm Beach, Florida, to Mar-a-Lago to meet the former and possibly future President Donald

24:20.24 – 24:20.50

Trump.

24:20.60 – 24:26.58

It was part of a strategy, an attempt to unlock USAID to Ukraine.

24:26.58 – 24:33.74

Donald Trump has been behind the scenes orchestrating the Republican bloc on that.

24:34.34 – 24:35.70

How did it go, do you think?

24:35.96 – 24:39.66

What juice do you think David Cameron would have had with Donald Trump?

1Speaker 1
24:40.26 – 24:41.74

None, number one.

24:42.52 – 24:49.56

And number two, he becomes a sort of piece on the chessboard that Donald Trump and his

24:49.56 – 24:51.62

minions can continue to manipulate.

24:52.50 – 24:59.78

You see, there are respected leaders of countries that are important to the United States that

24:59.78 – 25:00.68

made the pilgrimage.

25:01.04 – 25:10.78

I don't know why Cameron did this out of curiosity, a sort of maybe vicarious interest in seeing

25:11.72 – 25:14.88

what and who Donald Trump is now.

25:15.76 – 25:21.70

I can't imagine that David Cameron believes he's somehow hedging his bets and that should

25:21.70 – 25:26.56

the presumptive nominee of the Republican Party become president, that somehow Britain

25:26.56 – 25:34.10

is going to get some sort of special treatment because he made the pilgrimage to the not

25:34.10 – 25:35.04

so holy land.

25:35.30 – 25:37.02

I don't know the answer to that.

25:37.12 – 25:39.10

It puzzled me and I wondered.

25:39.62 – 25:44.70

I turned a question to my British friends to ask them, why did he do this?

2Speaker 2
25:44.88 – 25:46.70

Well, that is a good question.

25:46.94 – 25:50.58

I think there are some people at both sides of the Atlantic asking that question.

25:51.32 – 25:56.58

But Aaron David Miller, wise ahead of long experience on these matters.

25:56.76 – 25:59.40

Thanks so much for talking to me on Politics Weekly, America.

1Speaker 1
25:59.62 – 26:00.50

Jonathan, thanks.

26:00.58 – 26:01.70

Thanks so much for having me.

2Speaker 2
26:03.74 – 26:05.54

And that's all from me for this week.

26:05.66 – 26:10.42

The US is not the only country grappling with how to deal with the war in Gaza.

26:10.42 – 26:15.80

On this week's episode of Politics Weekly, UK, my colleague John Harris is joined by

26:15.80 – 26:21.46

the former peace negotiator Daniel Levy to discuss whether there is a pathway to end

26:21.46 – 26:22.06

the conflict.

26:22.50 – 26:27.08

John also speaks to The Guardian's Pippa Crera and Patrick Wintour about the politics

26:27.08 – 26:28.62

of dealing with this issue.

26:29.02 – 26:33.92

And as New York braces itself to host the first ever criminal trial of a former or sitting

26:33.92 – 26:39.30

US president, on Thursday's episode of our sister podcast, Today in Focus, my colleague

26:39.30 – 26:45.08

Hugo Lowell explains the stakes for Donald Trump as he appears in court over alleged

26:45.08 – 26:51.70

payments made to the adult film performer Stormy Daniels in the run up to the 2016 presidential

26:51.70 – 26:52.24

election.

26:52.68 – 26:55.96

Do search for both of those wherever you get your podcasts.

26:56.28 – 26:57.44

But for now, it's goodbye.

26:57.96 – 27:02.52

The producer is Daniel Stevens, the executive producer, Maz Ebtehaj.

27:02.82 – 27:03.94

I'm Jonathan Friedland.

27:04.22 – 27:06.32

Thanks, as always, for listening.

27:16.78 – 27:18.44

This is The Guardian.

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