"Steven Soderbergh"

Chicken Alfredo. Welcome to Smartland. Smart. Love.

Smart. Love.

Smart. Love.

You seem so stressed out. Why are you so stressed out, Jay? I'm not. I'm really, I don't know why I'm. ...

I'm tired today. No one wants to hear about it, though. This is probably not a great way to start. Is it from the gauff? From the early gauff?

It's just too much gauff. You're right. Nobody does want to hear this. I just asked you if you, why you were tired. I did have an early, an early run.

I shot 77 yesterday, Will. I know you don't care, and you don't want to hear about it. But I'm terrified of it. Good for you. I'm happy.

for you because you have the last couple weeks and I can say this now that you've shot you had a good round yesterday you've had it's been unlike you and you've had some some mediocre rounds and I know you've been upset and you've had a few thank you grumpier than usual days thank you for seeing me and hearing me so I see you here's what the number 77 and golf means to me that sounds really high well um the, the, the the level par normal is 70 or 72 yeah okay my god so that's if you did everything i've been watching lord of the rings okay moving on i'll tell you this speaking of lord of the rings are you guys being are you guys being held hostage somewhere what's going on i've never seen any of them but i'll bet oh my god they're so very good speaking speaking of lord of the rings um i uh amanda and i have our anniversary coming up uh i can say this because uh yes she won't well no she doesn't listen to these i have it in my calendar you're and it does not listen she does not listen so we have it coming up uh in a month or so and i thought uh about getting her a ring uh this, this this ring from this jeweler that she likes how many years i haven't bought her any jewelry in a long long time and so this is and i usually don't do it unless it's a pre-approved by her because i anytime i try to like go rogue i get slammed jay i got somebody dude enough with all the hot romance it sounds so incredible so uh so yeah i seriously i have somebody if you want somebody no, no i got that uh he's got the person who was approved by amanda this is a pre-approved person i know the person but we share a calendar we share a calendar uh amanda and i and so i had to put a reminder on my calendar to go to this jeweler today and because i'm going to get her a ring i put as the the the prompt of the calendar as just lord. lord oh lord of the rings for lord of the race now our assistant shares a calendar too with us and i'm waiting for her to say where have you found to worship on tuesday why are you worshiping on a tuesday um but i couldn't come up with a better prompt in the calendar that's my lord is that what lord meant is lord of the ring yeah lord of the ring so i would remember oh go get that ring today all right and did you get it i don't know not yet it's after this i gotta be honest it's not a great story what it's a long story but i will say this that's my specialty bro that it that it. it it begs a lot of questions from the other two people with whom you share a calendar which i think is a mistake a b i don't have as many secrets as well you have an assistant and if amanda has a question about your calendar she could say hey can you how's he look like on this day yeah b but c by putting lord it it's begging someone to go to say what's going on what's going on what you should have done is done something like golf lesson yeah or some stupid fucking thing like that but no you didn't do that i thought i guess i was so excited that i've like what did you get her what kind of ring nothing yet but are you gonna go pick it out yeah it's some one of these vintage goddamn things that i know the lady how many years jay yeah 20 plus wow but i better get better get the i better find out before we hit 25 because 25 is silver 25 is when you get like the real ring i'd i'd nail down the day the number of actual years right yeah before you know just in case it comes up um i think i heard i think our guest has been has been laughing and how foolish we are um no we're wasting his time i know we really are you know what i'm stalling because i'm really nervous actually i think that's why i'm tired today yeah oh yeah it's so much better when it's not my guest because then i can just hit fuck it and i just roll in completely unprepared and i just get to respond like the dingbat i am but today but today i got there's a hero here today do we have i can't wait to hear the i'm so excited for your your intro that you've written because these are my least uh sorry favorite parts about good didn't sound like he almost said least sean but it did but i actually really like him jade there's thought behind them and they're always kind of funny thank you thank you sean you mean i don't wing it like lazy boy over there or me yeah or you um all right here he comes

today, our guest might be the person i've most wanted to meet in this nutty biz. he's a master. you've never met him, i don't i. if i have, i'm going to be really embarrassed. i don't think i have.

i would have remembered, but he's going to tell me, maybe if he remembers and we didn't. sorry, i think we. i don't think we have. he's a master filmmaker and incredibly prolific he's made. he made his first movie 35 years ago and has made 35 films since, oh my god, not to mention his many, many projects for the small screen.

his films have made over two billion dollars and received 14 academy award nominations. in 2000 he won the oscar for best director and his odds were good because that year he was nominated for two films. he's come a long way from writing music for game shows and holding cue cards. he's got a couple of kids, a wife named jules, and we're born on the same day, january 14th. please welcome the one and only steven soderbergh.

oh my god, mister. so we're born on the same day. yeah, now see, i i track you. you don't track me, it's all right. a minute, yeah, january 14th, it's.

i shared a birthday with you, ll cool j and dave girl. well, okay, that's great. come together again, it is, i would like to see. i would like to see that grouping together. steven soderbergh, welcome to smartless.

what is so cool, real, it's so nice to. i'm gonna be the most boring person here. how does this work? what do i do? we're just gonna bullshit.

no, no, listener, you know, when we start recording, we will tell you who the most boring people. yeah, i'm kidding. i'm kidding, listener. we're starting with a great soderbergh piece of composition. here he's got.

he's got a frame left, uh, or frame right. he's got a spiral staircase cutting up through the ceiling. it's like a cool shot, um, and it's a low angle. we've got a nice palette going. steven is just you.

you you never stop being great. right. this is the bunker. this is the bunker. this is the bunker all right now.

um, steven, where do we start with? i know because, like i could, there's. there's a lot. he's got, as he would say, 9 000 questions for you, or 17 000 questions and for all the listeners. i see people always go.

sean always says i've got 9 000 questions or 17 000. you know what he does. so f off. so, steven, i i've often felt like and i and i feel like i've seen this out there before. so maybe it was informed by that and maybe it wasn't my original idea.

but i've often felt like when people talk about independent film and independent film, the 90s were its real heyday. that was sort of the genesis of the. yeah, uh, you know, we had the auteurist from the 70s, but then the 90s were like it was like a whole new movement and i feel like you were sort of on the cutting edge of that is sex lies and videotape was late 80s, i'm gonna say like 80, 89, 89. sex lies and videotape really was the kicking off point for and was the beginning of the, this sort of golden age of independent film. and you were really really, in a lot of ways, the godfather of that.

and then you went on to make so many unbelievably incredible films um, some with bigger budgets, some not, but you've always maintained there's there's something about the way that you've kind of kept that sort of independent spirit within the framework of the studio system, and i don't know if you agree with me or disagree with me, but is that something that was always? i don't know? is that something that's part of you, the way that you approach making films. it's a terrible question, but i think you know what i'm. yeah, i think i do.

um, i think it comes down to all of the films that i saw that influenced me, that i felt um were great, had a signature. they they were made by. they felt as though they were made by an individual right, and so the my goal. coming up on the heels of of what's often called the american new wave that followed, the new wave that came from europe and other parts of the world. that was what made this feel new.

there we knew that there were studio films, um, made by certain directors that had a certain signature. but the idea that that tradition over time, on a percentage basis, yielded better movies was not an idea that emerged until this new wave showed up, and people like me, who wanted to make movies, were watching these movies and feeling like there was a difference between something that felt made by a person and something that felt made by a company right, um, and that i just felt. well, i want to do that. that's what i want to be a part of, and i've tried to maintain that and also sort of brainwash you know other people around me and behind me to sign on to that idea. well, but you also did this thing where you you sorry jason, but i just want to sort of still on this where you made all these films and a lot of them very and all of them very different from from the next um and a lot of.

i find that a lot of filmmakers have a have a signature style or a thing that they do that makes you know, but that you have been able to sort of constantly change, not necessarily the way you make films, but but certainly tonally, the way that you, you really, uh, uh, you really lean into whatever it is the film that you're doing and you make, that they're all very, very different. and i think it's it's such a testament to, i don't know, like a lack of originality. no, no, no, no, you can't pigeonhole you, you can't pick like no, but that's that's. i'm a synthesis. i mean i can tell you that right now i'm a synthesis.

i know the difference between somebody who's a true original and somebody who's a synthesis. i've seen it, i've met them. i'm a synthesis. i, i, i, i, i don't look at anything. i've done and gone.

well, i did that first, like that's not true. um my, what i do, and what i like to do is see as much as i can see and and attach to as much as i can attach to that, i think is really compelling and then put it in a bucket and, you know, stew it around as i'm envisioning whatever the next thing is, and go, oh okay, i can use that, i can use that, i can use that, i'm going to save those other things. they don't work for this. i'll kick those down the road. but i'm just taking in anything i think is good.

a shot, a line, a transition, an idea, a font, anything. yeah, i'm, i'm looking for anything. so you don't? you kind of already just answered this, but i was going to say so you don't? you don't consciously, uh, seek out like i want to do a big, gigantic franchise for a studio because i have dollar signs in my eyes, or whatever you'd rather go for for idea, for whatever, whatever speaks to you personally, right, i mean it's a dumb question, but you kind of just said it correct.

well, i'm looking potentially through two different lenses. if there's nothing immediately in front of me, i'm just watching things to pick up new ideas and new information. if there's something, then that i focus on, oh, i'm going to do this. next. then i start to telescope that toward things that i think have been really good in that space.

yeah, because i think what's fascinating is when, with somebody like you and your brain is like, i think i i'm sure lots of people want, we always ask this of people that are as successful as you is like we try to get inside of the head and be like what informs your decisions, because they seem to be always correct, like that's what's fascinating to me is like finding out what, where that comes from inside of you rather than. this is a great story. i've never seen it. it's kind of speak to something even deeper than that, and i'm always fascinated with people with your track records. like god, you get it right time after time, after time after time.

what is that secret sauce? i look, if i knew what it was, i would tell you um, but i'm coming. no, no, because i'm honestly, i'm the. i'm the son of a, i'm an open source person. i don't keep anything that i've learned private, even when people wish that i would.

so you know it's, it's. it is purely a a question of taste, which is developed by what you grew up around. yeah, and then your sort of willingness to kind of grind it out to get to the good version of something. yeah, um, and and while doing that, in my view and this is really important creating an atmosphere of creativity you don't do this shit by yourself, right creating an environment in which people are thinking about the thing. they're not thinking about you and how you're behaving.

they're thinking about the thing. and so you're in this continual sort of conversation about what is the thing you want, what is the best version of this thing? right? if it's, if it's going good, you go with that and it's flowing when it pushes back at you. what's your sort of checklist for why?

you know it's pushing back? why? right, it was going fine. now we've hit a bump. what's the?

what are the questions i need to ask to get to the solve? yeah, there's no shortcut to that other than being on the floor, right, right? so you, you, you very humbly say that you're, you're more of a synthesizer than, uh than than than something else. um, but what would you say, let's to anybody out there listening that might be thinking about becoming a director and and weighing the, the, the, the effort of of education, you know in that space and taking, you know, directing classes, or what would the equal of that? whatever that is like, how much of what you do is technique, that you've learned and how much of it is, as you say, just synthesizing different elements that you've observed, liked, and then now you're just executing taste and and putting together a combination of all those things and reacting on the fly.

well, whenever i'm asked should i go to film school? or some parent asks should my child go to film school, my response is that look, if only to be part of a gang, it's worth it. yeah, you know, i mean i don't. i don't think, i don't think anybody's going to teach. if they're good, they're good, um, and they they'll be fine.

but you need a gang like you need a group you need. i had it. i just was lucky. i had it in high school instead of in college. yeah, so i just got lucky.

but we were a gang. we were a gang of people that wanted to make movies and were making short films, doing everything on everybody's projects. and so if that's the only thing you got out of going to film school, that's huge. actually, i said, yeah, i always say that about college, it's like college. yeah, was more taught me more about.

it's about socializing. yes, exactly exactly, and we will be right back. hey, it's guy raz here, the host of how i built this, a podcast that gives you a front row seat to how some of the biggest products were built and the innovators, entrepreneurs and idealists behind them. every week i speak to someone new stories like justin wolverton's, a lawyer who just wanted a healthy alternative to ice cream, so he created halo top in his cuisinart. or todd graves, who grew his fried chicken restaurant raising canes into one of the most successful fast food chains in the u.s all of these great conversations can help you learn how to think big, take risks and navigate crises in life and work from people who've done all of that and more.

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and now back to the show. speaking of a gang, you, you, you, often work with the same people or you you've worked with the same people. uh, a lot, um. uh, two of which, um, are our past guests. on on this um, this little chat show.

uh, george clooney and matt damon. um, why do you think those two have managed to work so much, given their limited level of talent, especially matt? why the fuck is wiggled through all of the barriers, through yeah and you? so you're partly to blame for this, um. but why was it that you said yes to them so many times?

they have stuff on you? or, yeah, what is that? it's? it's, uh, it's craven. um, yeah, it's.

it was funny because in the case of george, you know we we met at a time where both of us were viewed as kind of question marks. it it was we hadn't? was that? was that out of sight? was that when you guys were pre out of sight?

this is pre out of sight. so i've, after sex lies, i've made five things that nobody saw and not a lot of people liked, and george was becoming a giant tv star and making movies that were that were doing okay but, for whatever reason, didn't seem to be capturing the essence of what makes george george. and so we were both in this kind of weird, you know, transitional space. it was a thing that i was not front of line. i had to wait for people to pass and i felt like i knew what it was like.

i just felt like, i knew what it was and i went. george was already attached and i said here's what i think it is, and they agreed with that and and it was jersey films and george support. that got me that job. i could not have been colder at that point and you know that kind of for both of us just took the narrative in a different direction. yeah, you know, sidebar, when you go ahead, i was just to say uh, behind, we're allowing sidebars part of our show.

no, i was gonna say matt, matt damon and i were um, having dinner right before he started shooting behind the candelabra and he said to me i'm gonna get this wrong and he's gonna kill me, but it was something like sean. i don't know what to do. how. what do you think about me making out with michael douglas in this movie like, sorry, he goes, are people gonna be able to lose themselves in my role? i was like well, of course he's like.

are people gonna write about like that part, something like that? and i said well, of course you guys are both brilliant actors, but no, the press is definitely gonna take photos and you know the stills. i'm gonna say matt damon and michael douglas are making out in this movie like there's. no, you can't avoid avoid that. it was so funny and i'm like why.

i thought he was gonna ask you how do i really, how do i kiss a man? yeah, and i was like, show me how to. i said you want to run lines like i ask, workshop it real quick, do you? um, that was. was that the?

that's the end. no, that's just my little story. he was like well, how do i, how do we, how do i avoid? no, the press of that. i saw him the day before we started shooting and he said he said i had this terrible dinner with this actor, sean, whose initials are sean hayes or whose initials are sh.

and that's all i hear from jason. and well, yeah, um, and he goes. i i want to be clear about where i should be pitching this. and i said, i think tomorrow, when you put the whole thing on yeah, you you'll know exactly what it is. yeah, it's if you're an actor.

this is why i try desperately to not engage in sort of intellectual conversations with an actor about a scene that we're trying. it's physical. if the physical stuff's right, it's going to be right, right. and so that starts with the wardrobe. it literally does like yeah, what are my shoes?

what about like what? yeah, yeah, because it helps so much. are you, are you happy in what you're wearing? are you not happy in what you're wearing? like?

it's a part of like. i want to make it physical, and i just said, when you put that hair and the stuff on, you're gonna be that guy. that's right. yeah, jason, do you see yourself arguing with steven on set if you're working together, because he won't intellectualize, and i know that you like to grind people to a fine nub with your stupid questions. do you find as art?

sorry, let me just start that again further from the truth. that's true. i know, i know, i know i'm fucking with you. okay, let me have jason. let me ask you a question, so george.

yeah, george, subsequent to us working together, um then became a director. confessions of a dangerous mind. great director, yeah, and matt would be a great director too. i think so too. yeah, for sure, he's waited a long time, hasn't he?

it's um, but i will not repeat what george said to me after having directed his first film about actors. yeah, oh, come on, you gotta say it. well, i don't, i just said it like yeah, i can imagine. you know what i mean. he was he, he just had a very.

he's like wow, i it's. he goes, sounds obvious and like a cliche, but i have a very, very different view now of what happens when somebody comes at me as an actor. yeah, but yeah, but jay, jay, you said that similarly to me here and outside of here, where you're just like. i will engage like you don't appreciate how um, how helpful a helpful actor can be. um can save your ass until you direct, because it's between action and cut, the director is completely helpless.

you are fully reliant on the operator. dolly grip the actor, the boom operator, everybody to not fuck it up and just try to make everything coalesce and be aware that you're dancing with other departments that might not be on camera. but like it's all gotta work and if you can kind of keep half an eye on the process and all that like. so somebody like, like george or or matt, who both have like the huge, you know, set iqs, they can help while things are rolling. oh yeah, and and and george, certainly once he started directing, probably realized that even more.

but he's jay. but jay, you said something really smart, though, like i don't. i think it was on here where you were saying something like. it happened the more. and i'm looking at my calendar.

yeah, no, hopefully it's recorded. you said share a calendar. i share a calendar with jason's wife. so that's how you do today. that's happening.

no, what i was gonna say you said something about like the double was like working with actors about, like you you. there's a line where you. you'll have these great discussions with them, but you know where to end them, because if you engage too long, you reach a point where you're just talking in circles after a while or something like that, and ultimately, like it's not up to you, director, like the actor's, gonna do what that actor can do, the best they possibly can do it. and and i've and i've read, steven, that you've said that. so i know i'm, so i'm, uh, paraphrasing here, obviously, but you basically the the the spirit of it was, you have a very light touch.

um, because you realize that the best results will come from the atmosphere of comfort and confidence and and and safety, and you will encourage them. i think you said something. i want to make sure everybody's okay, and then you'll keep them all on the on the rails, as opposed to a more sort of prescriptive, uh, version of directing, which is, you know, i, i, i see you going up on this word and maybe come back down at the end of the line and then sit down over here, like it happens all the time. no, but it has to be, there has to be a structure, there has to be a decider what, what. my goal is to just have the process feel like it's evolving organically, but it's, it's really a trust issue that if it all comes down to when i say, no, that doesn't work.

you believe me, right, it's not. i'm not shutting you down for any other reason than i've gamed out all the versions of this with that in it. right, i'm telling you, it's, it's an org that needs to be extracted. that doesn't fit that. we haven't enough of a relationship, because you've usually been spot on.

you know what i mean when you go like hey, what if i do what if? and i go, yes, that's good, chase that right. but when i go, no, that doesn't work. because of x, that then we move on. and i'm sure you, i'm sure you carry a lot more credibility than other directors do with some actors, because you're actually oftentimes holding the camera and you have written it and you're going to be editing it.

um, like you, you've got your arms around completely around all the projects that you do in the in the best way, and i was so envious that you know how to operate, that you know how to edit and know how to write and all that stuff it directs. yeah, well, i was gonna ask if i could, sean, because you've had two sidebars and three questions.

you derailed the entire thing, just a sidebar, and now we're on to loose quotes that jason's got of. even, i think, you once said no, actually i mean i'm putting words in his mouth. this is just an absolute affront to the man. um, i what, i, what i wanted to get back to, just and just because you touched on it before you talked about when you were early on, when you and george got together and you started and you'd been making some films that nobody knew, that nobody had seen or whatever. you're a very for as a director, you're very prolific, unusual, unusually so i would say, to the extent that not two of the better directors, american directors, in the last 30 years are you, and todd field and todd's made five films.

i don't i call him todd, i don't know him. um, he's made five films and you've made sort of 30. he's made three. maybe he's made three, is it three, three? yeah, wow, in the bedroom, little children and tar, that's it is that hit, yep features, i mean incredible.

a thousand commercials, guys, that's really the best commercial. yeah, yeah, but but but. and then, and you've and you've made a lot, and again i'm maybe 30 or 25 or something like that, and and but you've both made great movies, him. is there something to for you as an artist? do you, do you enjoy that process of constantly creating?

do you need to be constantly creating? because you're, you don't have to do it. i guess you. well, you thought about not doing it anymore for a little while and then then, then it was just a hiatus. yeah, yeah, that was, boy, that was embarrassing.

um, um, you were probably misquoted or or overly quoted. no, no, i was. that was the problem. i was very accurately quoted. um the, look, i'm in the volume business.

um, it's, it's, that's just my metabolism. um the, the, there's a big downside to that, which is nothing you do. is an event. uh, interesting, but i don't. but i, i just i can't let that stop me, i can't.

no, but you still, but you still make great. we'll sort that out later, but i, i you, let you like doing what you do. so why not keep doing it right? yeah, well, well, by the way, maybe it's not an event in the sense that that you've you, you know, if you release a film and you've released a film a year before, to the extent that like, well, okay, he's got another, but you make a, you're consistently you make really good films, so you that that's not a strike against you or knock against you, if anything. i just i'm just interested in the process that some people like to do.

need that to do it more. oh, i look, i would love if people were like he's taylor swift, right? he's the taylor swift of cinema. i would love that. nobody is saying that.

just put a wig on. we are gonna say here's our tease right there. um, we got it. detail that that is our teeth. wait, i have a dumb, dumb thing to say about contagion.

to have people in the last 20 years just been like. did you know that when you made contagion? there is gonna be covid.

wait, sean, by the way. so sorry, wait, how are you separating yourself from? that's what you're asking. yeah, why do you make yourself sound like? but who is?

where was that person from my head? what's your hometown, sean? um, chicago, yeah, it was, uh, i'll bet, i'll bet you did a ton of research. uh, going into that film. that, uh, that that the past administration could have benefited from.

just just right, just your pre-production notes, probably right, you know what. here we, there are a couple of things we missed. the big one we missed was that the idea that the jude law character in contagion would be the president. right, that's what we missed. we, we presented them.

we presented him as this sort of note in a larger chord. we didn't imagine a world in which he's the court. yeah, and so that's the big thing. we got wrong. but from a time you weren't out to make a comedy.

no, but from a technical level, this is what everybody said. this is how it's gonna start. uh, and, and were you it were? are you a science guy? were you interested in any of that kind of stuff?

are you? well, i mean i like it, and the only reason i ask because i'm gonna ask next about magic mike, not that i've seen it well. that's science. that's science. i mean that's just science.

sean, would you like, will and i to just, uh, take a 10 minute break or you go through all three of the magic mikes, sean and sean's gonna be embarrassed to ask you, and he's kind of he's got a bit of an issue, because he once said to me he says i said, did you see magic mike? guys? he said yeah. and i said, do you like? and he says, oh yeah, i was okay, go what's wrong?

and he said there were no fucking bears in it and it was just slim muscle guys. i was like i'm out, that's, i'm out, i'm out, that's. no, those are. so no, i i asked about, like you know, going back to my earlier question from an hour ago, which is like what, what is, what's the criteria for you to choose projects? it's like you go from, like jason was saying.

you go from like contagion, which is a science crazy movie, to remaking the ocean sinks, or whatever the order is, to strippers. magic mike, i mean there's. it's so so all over the place, which is so, um, incredible, it's so it's so, uh, yeah, what's the thing that draws you to stuff? is it, is it thematics or is it just based on? well, who brought me the script and or who's the writer?

or where does it shoot? is it any number of things? when i, yeah, when i saw you directing magic mike, i was like steven, what wait, it was so cool though. yeah, i don't have a. i only have one rule.

i, i don't have a rule in terms of where it comes from. it doesn't have to be my idea. i i'm really agnostic about that. the only rule is, if it's not a hell, yeah, it's enough. yeah, i like that.

yeah, i love it. well, but i mean, and i mean hell. yeah, i mean, as you know, when you say, yeah, i'm going to direct this. you know what that means, and it's, it's, it's. that's rule number one like.

it has to be a hell. yeah, i would do it for free. i would do it for however long it's going to take. you have to be that excited. yeah, for sure, don't do, would you ever?

would you ever? what about if it was a hell to the user? and, and let me ask you, how would? uh, i i'm, i'm, i'm a a young director. um, uh, haven't done a lot, but i'm trying out this thing.

where the nothing about you is young, it doesn't need to be a hell. yeah, um, as much as just a. yeah, because basically a double, because i feel like i can make it a triple during my work with it during pre-production, and maybe even make it a home run during, during shooting it, and then definitely by through through post, uh, through the editing and stuff so like. does it need to be like a, like a hell? yeah at the beginning, because you've got so much time with it to make it yours?

well, two things, yeah, i have the luxury of taking that position, which is not a small thing now. that came about through a set of circumstances that were, i think, pretty unique, the how sex lies happened. yeah, um, where some people really supported me and let me do that the way i wanted to do it and then, from that point forward, that allowed me to do things the way i wanted them to do. i had no contractual power on sex lies. i only had the power of persuasion, of convincing people.

i think this is the best version of this. yeah, they, they agreed. and for for my sister in wisconsin, when you say sex lies, it's sex lies. and videotape, the big movie. do you think that's the tipping point for her?

yeah, yeah, she, she's like. sex lies, sex lies, sex lies, believe me. she likes to know these things. she likes to know these things. um, yeah, so yeah, go ahead.

then i. i take your point that, depending on where you are in your life, in your career, there could be levels of hell. yeah, you know what i mean, yeah, but i feel like there's at least gotta be one. yeah, it could be the person that's the lead right in the thing and you're like look, there's some stuff on the edges of this that are really etched in jello, but i love this person. i've had a great experience with this person before, right, i feel, i feel safe, like you know, that could be a hell.

yeah, absolutely, can that? can that be a crew member? can that be a first ad or or a? uh, anybody? yeah, i think anybody that that it has to be somebody that you feel is next to you the whole time, no matter how escalated any conversation gets about what this thing should be.

yeah, you know, i mean like. it's got to be somebody who you're. i'm like. it's not just me, it's them too. we'll be right back.

and back to the show. you have such a uh, an incredible eye and aesthetic and taste, and it's just you, you. it seems like you really enjoy cinematography. um, it would seem to me like you would really dork out in being able to hire the most incredible cinematographers available. yet your director of photography on a lot of your own films under a different name.

well, how, what do you do you? do you sometimes want to maybe like, go call hoit van hoitma and then like, i mean what, how do you? uh, i don't know. it's, it's a sacrifice. i'm trading one thing for another.

i'm trading that i'm not as good as them, for the i'm not bad, and the level of intimacy that it gives me with the cast, sure i would trade even if i was bad. yeah, yeah, like i like that relationship and, and so it would be impossible for me to insert a genius like emmanuel lebesky, yeah, who i worked with in 1994. wow, it was his first job in the us on a anthology series for showtime, and if you were to watch it now it's all there. he was fully formed. he was chivo.

yeah, right out of the gate. but i i really need that. i need that sense of just us in the room right. it takes away a late once you put another person in there and again, these are brilliant people. you feel like it.

it removes a. uh, it just puts yet another barrier between you and the cast in that way that you've got to constantly run you what you. there's a. there's a an added layer of dialogue that you have to have with some other person, rather than it just being you and the camera and the cast and working right. yeah, and it's.

it's not like i'm saying every. that should be everybody's goal, i'm just. i'm just saying like you. this is how i came up. i.

i was hanging out for four years of high school with these college aspiring filmmakers. i knew my way around a dark room. i was a photographer for the yearbook. like it it. it just was a very organic thing to want to be the nodal point for a series of decisions that constitute directing, like that was, and it just took me a to work my way back to that.

but i feel like you make. i feel like you make really sort of sophisticated films and and you don't. and and you, you have a lot of you sort of trust that the audience can meet you there. that's one of the things that i really enjoy about your films. i feel like they're like accessible, sophisticated films and and you're not worried about alienating your the audience.

in fact, i i imagine that you have i and tell me if i'm wrong, but that you've had conversations with studios over the years where they've been worried that your films, or thematically, or the way that they look, or the way that they set up, or that they're worried that it's not going to connect with the audience, and that i get this feeling from you that it's like it's okay. i know what i'm doing. i'm gonna make this film, yes, it's gonna have a sophisticated elements to it, but i'm gonna connect with the audience. it does seem like you're always aware that there's a big commercial center of it, that you're giving something to the audience, to the studio, but the execution is always elevated and sophisticated. well, the films that i like the most were both commercial and artful.

i mean that was that was what the american new wave did. it fused a sort of aesthetic that came from outside of the united states of america, a sort of attention to style and character that people in other parts of the world were doing, and then and then blended it with this very, very american desire to tell a clear narrative, right, and that it was like the perfect fusion of these two. that's what i wanted to do. so, you know, the things that i feel haven't worked have been the ones that have fallen too far into. wow, that would really work if it had subtitles.

but can you explain style to jason and sean? because they, they, i'm not gonna say lack of it, it's just that they're. i got a smartless t-shirt on. oh there it is, there it is, uh. uh, well, you did mention that all the president's men is one of your favorite movies.

i was gonna say what's your favorite film of all time? well, that's impossible, um, but i i think you rank. you ranked them at some point, and all the president's men was number two. i was very excited. yeah, when i was younger i used to.

but um, i think i think. look the in the summer of 1975, when i was in st petersburg, florida, visiting my grandparents alone, i saw jaws. now i was just gonna bring that up prior to this point. my father was a cinema fanatic. he gave me the cinema bug and we watched.

he took me the like. we all. this was part of our bond, but that was the first time after that movie was over. ironically, this perfect piece of entertainment now made me not think of movies as just entertainment anymore. so i had two questions what is directed by mean and who is steven spielberg?

so it turns out. you know, in in any store that you walked into, there was a paperback called the jaws log that carl gottlieb wrote, and it answered both of those questions. and i carried this thing around with me and highlighted every section that mentioned steven spielberg. and then, a year later, when we moved to baton rouge, louisiana, where my dad was dean of education at lsu, i fell in with these college film students and got my hands on a camera and everything started to move. wow, that's amazing.

and if you say, if you say both your names fast, that they sound the same, oh, i was just going to say when you were saying talking about like um, you know, americanizing storytelling, i was literally, i swear to god, i was going to say like jaws, i was going to say that. but anyway, um, do you still go to the movie theaters now or do you just watch everything at home? no, i do both. i do. yeah, i i still.

this is never going to go away. um it's, it's too fun to see something with a lot of people. have you seen something out in the movie theaters that you love recently? i think the last thing i saw in a theater and this is only because i've shot three things in a row in the last 12 months.

last thing i saw in a theater would have been top gun, which just proves that tom cruise has saved the movie. yeah, right right now. um, i want to talk about full circle, but before we do we first thing that comes to your mind. if i ask you what your favorite part of directing is the surprise that is the result of arranging the elements in the right way, that will result in a surprise, something, typically something an actor does. and where do you see that surprise?

do you see it on the first rehearsal? do you see it on the first take? or do you see it when you, when you, when you put it all together in the editing room? i'm open to any of that. if it happens in a rehearsal, it's we.

as long as it happens, we win. so you're open and excited to that which you didn't imagine last night there was. there was a thing, a shot that we did in logan lucky, where adam driver something's shot out of a tube to adam and there's, uh, there's, some lack of understanding whether the thing that's in his hand could actually blow up and kill all of them. and daniel craig is sort of react. he comes over and takes the thing from adam and had a reaction on the first take that i ruined.

i ruined the tape. too much laughing. no, i just ruined the tape like it was something i didn't see coming. and how did you ruin? it's in the movie, but i had to loop his vocalization just before he did it and his vocalization just after, because i was laughing.

yeah, but what about have you with the camera shaking too, because you were? no, thank god it was on a head, it was locked down. there you go. so i was touching it, but i didn't shake it right. and that's a problem, as you know.

that can be solved in post. but no, that's. that means we all did our job and and created this sort of velvet lined shoot that led to somebody going what if i did this? and you're like that's well, that's better, it's better. how worried are you about ai?

well, oh, that's a good question. sorry, not not just for filmmaking, just in general, because i, i i feel. no, it's a good question, because i think this is at the center of a lot of what's going on right now. i can only speak of it as a creative person and go, it's an iterative tool, it's. it's never going to get you in the end zone.

it hasn't experienced anything. it's you know what i mean like it's. it hasn't experienced anything, even to the point of it can look into your eyes, but it has no eyes, and so therefore it doesn't know what it means. you know to be looked at by somebody like it's my mom, right, that's that's what i was saying. and and i think what you're describing potentially is what i i've just sort of blanket used the blanket term of quirk.

it doesn't have the uh advantage of possessing any quirk because it hasn't had any experience. nothing's happened to it. yeah, yeah, but but jason, i think to your point it to me it's just an iterative tool. there's that you know. perfect explanation of how to solve things from the ed catmull book about pixar creativity inc.

where the motto is be wrong as fast as you can. so this is a tool. this is a tool to just what i tell people all the time is just get to the end. if this helps people get to the end of something, fine, all right. uh, tell us about full circle.

and i watched the first episode. it was. it is typically and predictably fantastic. another piece of great work from you. um the it's.

it's by design somewhat cryptic at the beginning, and i'm imagining the future episodes things start to slot into place. um so, without giving away any of those satisfying things, um, what, what is? what is the thing? it is, it is a kidnapping that goes wrong. um, but is there?

is there a thematic there at work that you'd like to play with? uh, often or or not? oh sure, i mean, you know, buried things never stay buried. yeah, i mean that's, that's what this is about. and, and in this instance, you know, it'd been buried for long enough that people had literally forgotten about it.

and, uh, so it's kind of a rude awakening and you can run but you can't hide. yeah, and, and it's, it's absolutely privileged torture porn. i'm, i'm, i'm, i'm a big fan of that genre. i think, i think ed solomon. i think ed solomon found a really interesting take on that.

and so i, you know, and i love that non-linear storytelling. uh, and and and and and different perspectives. uh, i can't wait to be surprised that they come together and braid at some point. well, first of all, you do that so well, i don't know anything about it, steven and i, and i'm a big fan of ed solomon's. obviously, he wrote bill and ted's and men in black.

he's another guy who's very prolific and done a lot of stuff that's very thematically different from the next one. and a bunch of stuff with you, steven, yeah, and a bunch of stuff with you, which is such a great pairing now that i think about it. of course, you guys are both just clearly interested, not interesting people. i'm sure you're both very interesting as well, but you're also very interested, which is, which is great, what is full circle, because i i know nothing about it. it's a show that's coming on max.

yeah, yeah, it's. it's a. it's a gigantic sort of new york, sydney, lumet style, melodrama. you know what i mean. yeah, there's a.

there's a crime in the of it. that sort of takes you all over the city. um, and, like i said, it's about karma. it's about something that somebody you know took apart in 20 years ago, forgot about it, and now it's come back. it's grown roots and and branches, and now they have to deal with it, and that's the kind of thing that i like.

i like it was fun to make a real new york. yeah, you know what i mean like seem like there's a lot of night work in that, steven. there was a lot of night work. um, and if i were the studios, if i were the studios negotiating, i would give up almost everything to say like um five percent night work, like no more. yeah, like we're, just we just hate it.

yeah. now, uh, a little talk about sidebars, side job here for you, um, a um, uh, signani 63 is a beverage. are you getting into the to the? what's signani? oh god, business a little bit.

yes, singani is a spirit. um, from bolivia. this is booze, guys, it's. yeah, it's it's booze, it's hard stuff. um, anyway, i i'm going to do this really quickly.

when we were making che, uh, our bolivian casting director gave me a bottle as a gift. it had never been out of bolivia. it's the national spirit of bolivia, um, and it's made from the white muscat of alexandria. grape was white grape. it's grown and distilled in this one twenty thousand acre area of southern bolivia, six thousand feet.

so it's a very, very. it's hard to make, and i got this stuff and i loved it, and for the next six months, while we were shooting, i created a mule train so that we could all drink. at the end of that, some people pressured me to bring this to america, which i did in 2014. in february of this year, the um tax and tariff bureau, which is part of the treasury department, fda and atf, gave singani its own category. this is something they don't do often.

it's something they don't like to do, but they did it because it's a unique spirit. and this solved one problem when i was doing my willie lowman act, taking bottles around in a backpack and going hey, what do you think? um, not a great look, it now kind of. it legitimizes that. when people will go.

well, what is it like? and i would go? well, it's not actually like anything. and now, finally, that's been legitimized. but it's let's just end with, do not go into the booze business, sure, don't?

don't do it? well, that's not what cluny said, yeah, or ryan reynolds don't? oh no, he knows, he knows how angry i am. i've told him it's funny because i did some. it was quite more profitable.

i did some muling out of bolivia myself, but it was a different. um, jesus, i know, steven, it's such an honor to meet you. i've wanted to meet you forever and i'm a big fan of all your movies. we, uh, we so appreciate you. uh, you spending some time with us, sure, do so, happy to meet you.

finally, i'm gonna hook up to this at the same time next week if you guys are here. yes, sure, yeah, sadly, we'll be in the same scene. i want to see you cascade down that uh, down that staircase. yeah, um, what a thrill. thank you so much.

um, can't wait to meet you in person one day and, uh, have a great rest of your day, steven. thank you for coming. thanks, thank you, pal. all right, bye, pal.

there you have steven soderbergh, a nice surprise. jason bateman, this man. how'd you get that? yeah, i, uh, i don't you know, i've got my ways. no, don't tell us.

but uh, my god, i, i am very surprised. i've never have you guys ever run into him. no, i've never run into him, never, not once. he's not an, he's not a man about town, i don't know. and, and i will say i meant it too, i i really admire how prolific he's been.

i love the idea that he just takes so many, not just a lot, of shots, so many different kinds of shots, like aaron brockovich. aaron brockovich out of sight, sexism, videotape, traffic, just like magic mike, all those things, all by the same guy. but what about that? not since 1938 or 39, i think it was, had a director been been nominated for two films in the same year best nominated for aaron brockovich and traffic traffic best director. and so we had two slots in the five.

that's, that's incredible, that's bananas, that is, yeah, it is bananas. how quickly, sean, did you go? um, do you opening day to full frontal? when that came out, that was the next year, that was the next year. he did full frontal.

i pre-ordered tickets for that. yeah, yeah, hey, by the way, you know what i just learned yesterday. guys tell us, sean, this should be good in hawaii. uh-huh, did you know it's against and they grow pineapples, and no, no, in hawaii, no, listen to the whole thing in hawaii. it's against the law to laugh really hard out loud in public.

did you know that? that's a bunch of bullshit you have to keep. you have to keep it to aloha.

oh man. and i would just also like to say

so i'd also like a lot out of me just said. i would also like to say i love when i see you guys, because we don't see each other, and whenever we get together and we talk for a really long time, you know it's like time flies by. oh will did not like that one.

they're just. they're getting lazier. you're just kind of. time flies by is a good one. in a father joke too, a dad joke.

i just heard it yesterday. i thought it was really good. his signature is just a bad joke and then he tries to shoehorn in a bye. it's so that was a good one we've never used. time flies by.

no smartless is 100. organic and artisanally handcrafted by michael grant, terry, rob armcharf and bennett barbaco.

smart less. this episode was recorded on may 30th.

if you like smartless, you can listen early and add free right now by joining wondery plus in the wondery app or on apple podcasts. before you go tell us by filling out a short survey at wondery.com survey.