Fred Armisen

Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. I'm Dax, Randall Shepard. I'm joined by Monica Lilly Padman. Hello. Hello.

Oh, my gosh. It's almost an insult.

It's shameful, actually. I'd say it's shameful. Fred Armisen is a comedian, an actor, and a musician. I mean, fuck. has this guy been funny for years and years and years.

He's so funny.

He's so original and bizarre, and beautiful and wonderful. Yes. Of course, Saturday Night Live, Portlandia, so many great things. That Documentary Now series is so fantastic.

Oh, my God. So funny.

He is on tour. Comedy for Musicians, But Everyone is Welcome, is the name of his tour. Comedy for Musicians, But Everyone is Welcome. Please go online and get tickets and go support Fred. He's outrageously talented.

He's an object's man.

You were? Behind your back.

As if that's a coincidence. I can't stay. You can't stay. That's fair. That's fair.

Yeah, we just have a couple transition bits. I think you'd be great. I got a list of the characters I want you to do. You don't need any run-up time, do you? You can just kind of drop into them as I list them.

No, I do need a lot of run-up time actually for that. Yeah, it's the worst part of it.

We're at a bit of an impasse because you have limited time and we've got 20 transitions.

And I need to... How are you doing? Good to see you.

It's so good to see you. It's really fun to have you here. It's shocking that it took this long.

I know. I know. I think we talked about it years ago.

Yeah, I think the very first time we were doing a live show in Brooklyn, and I assumed you were in New York. I bet a lot of people do that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Everyone assumes I'm in New York, but I'm like right nearby.

Yeah, you're a foot away.

And I wonder if the last time I saw you was... It wasn't the Halloween ride, was it?

You know, I imagine we've bumped into each other, but certainly the time we hung out last was Halloween.

That came up on Natasha's episode.

Yeah, exactly. When Natasha was here, she said... When I backed out of the driveway, that did something to her.

She thought it was hot because it was like, a dad is here to take care of us.

That's what it was. She thought, oh, this guy's a dad. He backs into traffic in the station wagon with...

That's when you pulled out...

Do you remember this? Because I wouldn't have remembered it.

You also thought it was funny. You're like, I can actually make this work because there are a lot of cars in the driveway. And I was like, there's no room. And then you're like, as a challenge, I'm going to do it. And you did it.

Yeah.

Boy, how embarrassing for me if I hadn't done it. Because there's nothing more embarrassing than a car accident. I know. Like, the risk is so high, for what? So you'll think I'm what, an expert?

Car accidents are embarrassing because they're so big.

Yeah.

It's like you're really stopped.

And everyone sees. It's not like you fell down and you can convince yourself. no one saw. It's like everyone hears screeching, they hear the impact.

You have to get out. It's not like Yes! If You Fall, where you can like, jump up and then just walk fast away.

And even if it's not your fault, it's actually embarrassing that your car is all dented up. Yes!

Yes.

So if someone else did it, you're still like, it. wasn't my fault, but you still got this massive dent.

And you still are responsible to get it somewhere, to get it fixed too. So it's like you immediately get a ton of homework. You're publicly embarrassed. There's so much to lose.

Your whole day is done. But the other problem is, you talk about it, you repeat the same story over and over. You probably don't even realize you're doing it. Like, oh, I had a fender bender today. I had a fender bender today.

But think how embarrassing my version would be, like, I had a fender bender. Oh my God, what happened? It was impossible to get through this group of cars in the driveway, but I really wanted Fred to think I was like Burt Reynolds from Smoking the Bandit. I don't know why. And then I just plowed in and pinballed between three of them.

I wouldn't have minded that story.

Yeah. Like if I was visiting you in the hospital. Yeah. Yeah. And you were in there with something terminal.

Which I should talk about.

Yeah. I was going to wait till the end to announce that, but I think that was a better time. So people can't enjoy any of the rest of the interview because they're just thinking how much I'll miss you. This thing's coming. And then they maybe even get preoccupied.

And I keep saying that I might not make it all the way through. God, I hope I'm not making fun of anyone who has done that on here.

That died on here.

We did have someone on who was not in the best condition, but was fine.

But he took breaks. I love that one, though. You heard that? Oh, yeah. Phil Stutz.

That for me, I mean, I don't know what it's like for him to be in public. Well, I know, because he kind of confronts it in the doc.

Yeah. And he's kind of different. He gets a pass of all that stuff anyway, because it just works for him.

But I got to say, I think if I had forecast what that experience would be like, I might think, oh, it's gonna be really hard to keep him on track. And will people listen, or will they like it? And I want to represent him really well, because I admire him. But in the moment, it was just this beautiful opportunity to care for somebody that I liked.

Yeah.

You love people in public. You don't ever get a chance to kind of nurture them. And there were these moments where it was like, yeah, let's take a break. Do you want some peanuts?

Yeah. I like that. you kept that in. You kept the ones saying, like, do you want to take a break?

Do you want some M&Ms? And then I was very open about the fact that the highlight for.

that part, I didn't know that.

He also wiped his butt.

I cleaned his...

Well, he cleaned his penis.

He had a little bit of the bris in his foreskin, but I got that out.

But you really did help him to the bathroom.

I did help him to the bathroom, but I also did hold his hand for quite a while while we walked around the property and took pictures and then went out to his car.

How old is he?

Maybe not even 70..

No, he's like in his 70s, I think.

Some disagreement between both, but yes. Let's just say we've had a lot of guests that are much older than him, but it's definitely the Parkinson's of it all. But anyways, all those fears I had, or things I would have thought would have not been good about, that turned out to be like in this last five and a half years, top three experiences was like caring for Phil Stutz.

And also that he was so vulnerable enough to say like, hey, I need to take a break. Once you've done that, it's almost like saying, I have to go pee. Then, okay, now we're just normal people again.

Yeah. That's really hard for me to do. Is it hard for you to do? Oh, yeah. I'll suffer through anything.

Oh, my God. I'm so envious of people who do it so well. How do they do it?

Listen, we had a moment in here. I don't want to presume you've listened to a bunch of them. I'm so flattered you listened to Stutz. I'm already kind of really blown away.

No, no, that was fantastic.

But when we had Rick Rubin, so there's a moment in there that I think would have blow your mind equally as well as mine. So we're about 12 minutes in and he just goes, will you turn the air conditioner down? It's too cold in here. And I said, I'm blown away with that. I would never do that.

I was once on set with someone who was just eating in front of everybody on the set and talking to people. I was like, I wish I could do that. I'm always like, I don't eat.

I'm not going to inconvenience you ever.

That's just not a problem.

What do you think that the basis of that is, the foundation? There's something that seems very obvious about this.

Yeah. It's so much of a go-to to use the expression people-pleasing, but it's in there for sure. And no matter how much I try to fight it and get better at it, still, it's moments like saying, can you turn the air conditioner down? And I can't, or I got to go, pee.

I'm so uncomfortable right now. Could I please stop all this to go pee and just live with it?

I don't know what it's from. I try to get better at it or sometimes pretend to kind of be a little looser about it. But at my core, I just want to get through the moment, not make any waves.

Here's another one. What happens if you order something and it's not what you hoped?

This I'm going to back myself up on.

Okay.

Because this I don't see as a flaw. If they bring me something that I didn't order, I'll just eat it, but not like, oh, but not out of, oh, I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. It's that when I'm hungry, I don't want to play this game. I see. No, this is what I wanted.

They're not going to bring you kimchi at the taco stand.

Exactly. That's the exact example I was going to use. How funny. But we think alike.

We always have.

That's our whole thing. Our only thing is how alike we are.

I know it's weird, because the only thing we have in common is that we have everything in common.

Yeah. And then we don't learn anything. It's boring. It's like a twin. It's so boring.

The few times we've hung out, every sentence that started is mutually started at the same time. And it's the same.

That's the problem. It's like we don't finish each other's sentences. We begin the same sentence.

And then we both give up because we realize, oh, well, if he was going to say it, and I'm saying it, it must be pedestrian. What am I doing here? Yeah.

Wait, I have a question. I'm bringing us out of this bit.

Okay. You're going to probably have to do it a bunch of times.

It's going to be a lot of me doing that. If the food comes and it's cooked improperly, so you can't eat it. I mean, you could, but you'd probably be sick.

Oh, if there's a problem with it.

Yeah. Would you say?

That's different, because that's health related. Right. So I just don't want to get sick.

What if it's overcooked? I think that's the more pertinent.

Okay. If it's overcooked, so you really, it's going to like taste gross, but you could eat it.

They blasted it.

Now it seems like I'm going to be saying this for this case of argument. I like things a little burnt. Oh.

Okay. A little tasteless.

Okay.

I like things cooked thoroughly. I like a little crisp.

Well done.

Something well done. I always order. well done. Cajun. I like a little, so that wouldn't be a problem with me.

Cajun.

Well, they do a lot of burnt.

Yeah. Sure.

Cajun, French for burnt. Cajun style. That's the French word. Cajun. Is burnt?

It's a past tense.

Okay. So you're going to eat it.

Yeah. And then the whole thing about something being wrong. I'm like, we're good.

Okay. Wow.

My thing is if I order something, I noticed this in my best friend, Aaron too. If we make a decision and it didn't turn out well, you just got to live with it. It would be too embarrassing to acknowledge that you maybe shouldn't have made the decision to begin with or something.

Yes. It wastes more time.

Yeah. It's like Kristen returns items and I'm so impressed, but I'm like, I'll just wear the thing I don't like because I ordered it.

Yeah. And then we're done. Then we get to go home. Yeah. I don't want the night to turn into like, then there was this, and no disrespect to Kristen.

I'm more talking for her about, like the internet.

Yeah.

But even the internet, if I order something from the internet and it's not what it should look like, I just go, that's on me. I shouldn't have been so optimistic about this product.

And for the convenience of it, of course, there's going to be like, oh, this is so not what I pictured. I wonder if there is a new phase of garbage that people are like, this is not what I wanted. It's too much to return it.

And they just throw it away.

I think there must be more. Yeah.

Or what's happening here. And first I'm embarrassed to admit this. Clearly I'm wasting a lot of money. That's obvious in the statement, but I think it's, you're lucky if you're at Goodwill and you live within a couple miles of my house. because they're getting so much stuff.

I can't believe. I said, dude, but there's one on San Fernando that I go to because they have a really good drop-off and some of these suit jackets, I'm like, that's a real suit.

jacket. This is fancy.

Shoes, all kinds of stuff. Also, sometimes there'll be like some weird gift. And I don't mean by someone, you know, but some company will be like, here's the new Star Wars fashion book or something.

But do you not have this fear? So that happens to me as well. People send me nice stuff, but I just don't want it. And then I send it to Goodwill. It's better than throwing away.

I've read about this cause, I've had the same conundrum and I've read that it's actually okay.

It is.

That you did your job. Like they did their job by giving you a gift. So they're done.

Yeah, they're clean.

And then you accepted it. And what happens from there is okay with the universe.

That helps. But I get so scared they're going to see the item at the Goodwill store.

That is not going to happen.

It's not going to happen.

It's so not going to happen. And if, by the way, let's say, I gave you something, you know, I found something in some other country and I gave it to you. And then somewhere I find out that you got rid of it, I would never be hurt. I'd be like, oh, I don't know. What did I get you again?

What if you had found it and you're like, this is going to change his life. What if you had really high expectations?

I wouldn't have that expectation. You wouldn't.

What about from a romantic partner? Cause that's higher stakes.

That's different and that you just keep.

Right? You just have to.

Yeah. And that's okay. I think there's space for that. And also close friends. They're just meaningful things.

Have you thrown anything away from Mick Jagger?

Nope. A lot of the stuff he's given me is not tangible. anyway. It's been like trips mostly.

Oh, you can't throw them away.

Yeah. So there's no way I could throw that away.

Yeah. That's what I say. Memories are more valuable.

I don't know why I threw that name out.

What's interesting about talking to you, though, is it's tricky, because because you were on Sarient Life for 11 years, or whatever it was, you probably have met Mick Jagger.

Oh yeah, I know. He hosted once and he's been at a bunch of events. Yeah. But the jump to like he gave me gifts is like little. But that said, all of those experiences, I'm still blown away.

Yeah. I don't even know what to compare it to. Like maybe being the editor of Vanity Fair, like what other occupation would you have, where people just call this job as one?

This is the same type of thing.

I can't think of one, but we have one.

Yeah. Where people sit here and I'm like, Gwyneth Paltrow's here? Yeah. Well, and Prince Harry. And you.

Well, I get that a lot about me.

Yeah. A whole lot. I'm sure.

I've gone on some podcasts and they just stop. They're like, we can't.

We don't know how to go on. We're not ready.

We're not there yet.

I didn't mean to call this a podcast.

Thank you. Thank you. Because we don't refer to it as that. We'll edit it out. I wore a shirt just for you and then it's become too hot.

Shelter. Oh, that's beautiful.

Does that ring a bell?

That's a club, right?

Well, there is Shelter in Detroit at St. Andrews. Yeah. But Shelter was a Hare Krishna punk band that I thought for sure you would have been hip to. It's too hot for a long sleeve shirt.

And now I'm going to take it off. It looks great. Oh, for those of you not watching.

Because there's no video.

There'll be some photos. They'll know. But you know what happened is I was reading about you today and you gave me this crazy gift today, which is, it wasn't even about your band. You were talking about your band. And at the same time, there was another band, Tortoise, who had no lyrics and 20 minute songs and that they had just blown by Trench Mouth.

Yeah, yeah. And Now Die.

How did I forget for the last 15 years that I loved Tortoise?

Yeah. Isn't that nice when that happens?

Yes.

There's music. They're like, this was a big part of my life.

Enormous. Like to the point where I was like, is there something wrong with my memory that I've spent hours and hours and hours with that?

They still tour. Oh, wow. They still put out records and they're friends of mine since that time. And I like that. we're all getting older.

Like everyone, turned out to be safe.

It all worked out. So I like that feeling.

There's degrees of it. It's not like you have to actively dislike them or be jealous of them, but just they are a reminder of where you'd like to be, and you're not. Just that. simple reality compounds things a little bit.

The way it stays alive is now, I think, past tense. And I thought, oh, it would have been nice to have been in Tortoise. Uh-huh. Although I love my experience with my band and they're still my friends. I wish there was a way I could have been in both.

Well, that's what's also fun about getting older, is you look back and you go like, well, if I had gotten what I wanted.

Oh, please.

Likely, I would have not pursued comedy or acting.

That's exactly right.

Right? If you're on tour with Tortoise in Europe, that's a damn good life. You're not really longing for a whole bunch at that point.

No, and I would keep taking the next gig, whatever it was, and like, hey, I'm one of the drummers for Tortoise.

Yes, one of the six drummers for Tortoise.

Yeah, so I'm going to go do this thing in Italy and I'll just continue on.

Which, again, is a great life for everyone in Tortoise, but you've now met...

Mick Jagger and Paul McCartney and all those people.

Presidents and shit. Presidents, come to SNL. Yeah. Obama must have come.

Right before he was elected on Halloween. Oh, wow. Have you met presidents?

We interviewed Obama and we interviewed Hillary. She wasn't a president, but she should have been.

She should have been. That's it.

That's it. As far as presidents. That's as far as we go.

How does this all work? And this is kind of a people-pleasing thing. We're like, today. you had to sit here with me, in a good way, like this is part of your day.

We get to.

You get to, but the fact that you had to go through hearing me talk about Tortoise and stuff, is that a laborious part of your day? We're like, who's this guy?

Not at all. Sincerely. And not even after, we're like five and a half years into it, maybe 700, 800 interviews. And actually, when I sit down today, I'm like, oh, this is so fun. Here's a person I've known.

Yeah, how does it come up, even?

I forgot they were my favorite band up until three hours ago.

God, they're so good.

But we also don't have anyone on who we don't want to talk to, because we decide.

Occasionally we do, which is its own funny thing, because more often than not, the person I don't want to interview, I end up loving that interview the most. And that's why I compare this room to, like, AA. I never want to go to a meeting, but I've never driven home from a meeting and not been happy. I went. There's some magic there I can't articulate.

That happened on... Oh, I interrupted him. If you could separate the tracks.

By the way, you think that's a joke? That is what we do.

Who does the editing, by the way?

We have a cleanup editor come in at first, and she does do a lot of that. And then I come in for content.

Stellar job. Whoever does the cleanup...

It's specific.

There's stuff... I mean, I could tell that someone is paying attention.

Oh, it's tedious. It's good.

It's so clean.

I like it. I edit one of our other shows, and what I like is it's instantly gratifying. You take this sentence that took 31 seconds, and you make it 24 seconds, and all of a sudden it's perfect.

Yeah.

Do you edit? Do you ever fuck around Pro Tools with music or anything?

With music, a little bit, but never video. But I've been on some interviews, and I'll clear my throat, and I'm like, they'll take that out. No, they don't take it out. Yeah. Come on.

What if you had your publicist turn in a list of edits after you left every place?

I bet you, there are people who... You and I, obviously, aren't equipped to do that, but I'm sure there are people who do it.

We could shit our pants on this microphone and just be like, well, I deserve for them to leave that in.

Leave it in. Anyway, that's really good to know. Oh, and I was going to say about having people on. It just happened to you. You had to book someone.

And then you leave an enormous fan of them, right?

Absolutely.

Okay, now back to you. So the things I learned today about you that I find very interesting and I'm going to make you talk about publicly is, first of all, maybe the most exciting 23andMe result of anyone I've interviewed. Yeah. What? Right?

I did the show called Finding Your Roots.

Oh, yeah.

And they really do research. I asked them how they did it, and they looked through church records. Wow. And they really get into your family. My mom is Venezuelan.

Can I ask really quickly, what age did she move?

I think her first year in college. She moved from Venezuela to Mississippi. There was a program there for foreign students, and she was attracted to the show business of America. My dad is German, but his mom is German. His dad was slash is Japanese.

Can you believe this? Everyone thought Japanese the whole time. You grew up believing you had a Japanese grandfather.

And I even walked around going, I have to have some Japanese traits. My aesthetic. I sort of buy into it a little bit.

Yes. You were very clean.

Self-fulfilling prophecy.

Yeah, and then not the case. And the reason is, back then, Koreans would send their kids to Japan to get educated. But there was so much racism against Koreans in Japan that he changed his name and was like, I'm Japanese. Wow. How about it?

He taught at Cal State, Fullerton for, what, 15 years or something? I don't know how many years. 60s to the 75..

He was teaching dance?

Yeah. He was an avant-garde dancer.

Wow.

What an interesting person to have been born in Korea, educated in Japan, live in Germany, come to the States as a professional dancer, teach dance. Did you have a relationship with him?

A little bit. He visited a couple times. He was very interesting, but he had kids all around the world.

Oh, he did?

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Oh, those dancers are so sexual.

You know, for a while, we would get mail from different places. Hey, I'm your uncle or I'm your brother because of Kuni.

Oh, my gosh. My son and Kuni. Very Japanese.

Yes, that's the name he picked.

Picked, yeah.

Family members all over the place.

Wow. Have you met any of them? Yes. You have?

A Danish-Korean uncle visited recently. Really? I met him for the first time.

Are you a little skeptical sometimes because now you're famous? And are you ever wondering, are people just reaching out because of that?

It seemed instantly real. Wow. Just from, I would see a picture. And also, as we got talking, you know, you could just tell. You're like, oh, this is a real conversation.

Right. It's not like this, where they're mining for your show business history.

No, or like asking me about my work.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Especially in Denmark or wherever, they're at a distance from it. They're not impressed by SNL.

Interesting. Nor should they be.

No, they should. Dax. They're wrong. It started in 1975.. It was one of the first live.

Oh my God. Launched the careers of over 65 franchise comedians.

Yes. Was he alive when you figured this out?

Oh, no, no. He was pretty old, but he died somewhere in the 90s. He was very mysterious. He just wasn't around. My grandmother, Gabriela, German woman.

Not Aryan.

And she dated a bunch of guys. At the time, oh, this is going to be too confusing. I'll do it, though. When she had my dad, she was actually dating someone else. She was dating a Persian gentleman.

And he went by Fred as well. Yes.

When I got the name Ferry Dunn, we both changed it when we were here. And we were like, let's keep it simple. But anyway, she's really interesting. She was a smoker. Oh, yeah.

We know that's a word we use. Oh, God.

After the war, moved to Spain. She did.

How did dad get to the States? Did your grandma move to the States?

No. On his own, he went to the same college as my mom.

In Mississippi. Yes.

That's where they met.

Okay. Now, this is interesting because his mother has this wonderful explorative appetite. Yes. And the dad is a professional dancer who's siring children all over the place. And he works at IBM.

How about it? Wow.

Doesn't that seem a little...

I mean, I guess that's the kind of rebellion.

Exactly. You go in the opposite direction of your parents.

Yeah. I'm going to rebel and work at IBM.

Forever. Classic businessman. Textbook. Briefcase. Suit.

I'm going to try to guess the car.

Let me try to remember first. Okay.

Yeah. It won't help if I guess and you're not sure what it was.

I'm remembering my little kid one, and then I'm thinking of two cars.

Okay. It's going to be hard then, it sounds like. But I'm guessing in the late 70s.

Late 70s, okay.

Right? Or are we going to go early 70s?

You want to go early 70s? I'm picturing something.

Wow. Early 70s. I'm going to go with a Pontiac Catalina.

No. A Volkswagen Beetle. Wow.

Whoa, I couldn't have been more off base. Wow, is that a nod to his mother's German-ness? It's not common for people to drive Beetle Bugs in the 70s.

It feels like, let's keep it small.

It's a simple design. It's pure. I got you. And then what did he switch to? What was the other car?

A white Camaro.

A wonderful departure from the bug.

Was it a midlife crisis?

Was he having an affair? Maybe. Oh, well.

He's still alive, so it's hard to talk about.

But it's okay.

Let's just say that my parents split up.

Oh, okay. And then he got the Camaro.

Camaro was before.

A Harbinger.

It didn't feel like that. It didn't feel like tough guy stuff. Okay. I will say it felt a little bit more like, this is what people buy.

Yeah, if you wanted a two-door, that was the option.

Yeah, it was a reasonable option. I want to get a picture of my grandfather. Yeah. Oh, I would love that.

Because I do have some questions for you. Like, having a Venezuelan mother and a half Korean and half German father, when you were growing up, did you feel like you looked other?

Yes, but the town I grew up in in Long Island was very Italian-American.

Don't? we think you could maybe pass for that?

I do think so.

People knew me enough that they knew that I wasn't Italian. Okay. And also, I didn't have that Long Island accent. Long Island had that thick-.

I'm Freddie Armisen.

More than Brooklyn. Just to show you a picture of my grandfather.

Oh, my gosh. Wow.

Of course, he made love to a lot of people. Yeah.

A lot of pregnancies. And artsy in the 40s.

Yeah, that is definitely artsy.

Okay, so back to the ethnicity. Did you feel other? Because I have some kind of armchair overarching theory on what your brilliance as a comedian is. I have a whole opinion about. I feel like some of it might start here.

I felt other when I looked in the mirror. I see everyone else's family, and they don't look like me.

Right, and they're having that big Sunday dinner.

All food-based. I don't have that experience of, like, gather around the table.

We eat for four and a half hours on Sunday.

But, when I started thinking about, was it difficult for me? I gotta say, on Long Island, I experienced no racism. No one gave me a hard time. I had friends. They knew my parents.

That is what's very curious about humans. I'm often talking to somebody who is a minority. And I'll hear how much they're connecting with that otherness. And then, it feels like maybe some kind of white privilege or denial. That I'll try to mention, that a lot of people feel other.

It doesn't sound weird. I think everyone feels insecure. And maybe different from your friends because of this or that. But, the sense of otherness because of something you have absolutely zero control over. And never can.

Right, and it's visual. It's visual.

You can't compare.

For sure, it's stronger. But, I do think it's human nature to go, like, everyone's, in on something I know.

Yeah, for sure.

Most of the time. Even if you look like everybody else. There's like, yeah, but they're all having those big dinners.

Right, right, right. On the Barbie movie, when Margot Robbie is, have you seen it?

I haven't seen it yet.

It's great.

I will, I will.

It's the funniest movie I've seen in a decade.

I can't, it's hard. You can't afford it. yet. I'm trying to find, I'm trying to budget out.

But, she has this monologue and she's basically saying that. I don't feel pretty. And, they had to build in a voiceover that comes in that says, for the purposes.

We recognize when making this point, Margot Robbie wasn't the best.

Was not the best casting choice.

It's clearly a fix, too. They clearly tried to pull that off. And, then they were watching it and going like, no one's going to ever look at her and feel any sympathy.

And, it's not to say Margot Robbie herself, I'm sure, has had times in her life where she doesn't like the way she looks. Or, doesn't like something. It's just like, objectively there's a difference.

The problem is, though, is like when you look at what the impact is, that's relevant. So, I won't say his name, but there's an actor, recently who's the prettiest man to ever live. Who has completely changed his face, dramatically. And, what I can tell from that is like, God, despite what we all think, he does not see it. Which is crazy.

I'm agreeing with that. I think they do. It just feels different from the outside. When there's someone else who's looking at her and like, oh no.

You.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, Gail, who's like pulls her eye patch off to see. And, then she falls out of her, yeah.

No offense people with eye patches.

We should make that clear. Eye patches are beautiful. We should have started with that.

You and I both have had several eye patches.

Yeah, I had two at the same time for a while. For two different reasons. Two different but similar reasons. Those people who you think have that aesthetic, as you get to know them, you're like, oh, they absolutely are other. Their experience and how they got there.

I will say, I now can look back and go like, what was I thinking? I am the most prototypical, like. I'm 6'2 and white. I have blonde hair and blue eyes. Yet, if you look at all my actions, I did not feel invited to join the football team.

And, still, I would think that you were on the football team.

Yes, I think a lot of people think that about me. Yes.

Or even with your confidence.

That is where it's like, I do have a huge luxury. Yes. And I admit it. Like, when I go into a studio and say, I'd like to direct this movie, they think I can because I'm tall.

It's true, though.

It is. I know intellectually that's true, but it doesn't mean like emotionally. I have felt that way growing up.

And they would never admit it.

They don't know it.

They don't know it. They genuinely don't know it. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert. If you dare.

Yeah, the only word I can think of is the desperation, the want to be part of something. So that when I think of people doing one-man shows, I'm thinking of a type, not every person.

Yes, yes, of course, there's a million great ones.

A million great ones.

Swimming to Cambodia, vagina monologues. Yeah. And then there's a lot of folks, Tommy Pamizzi style.

Yeah.

Which is kind of sweet. It's endearing.

It is endearing, but they're like, I'm in it too, I'm doing it.

We've played that on the fact check before. We've played the whole sketch.

I think several times we have.

Yeah.

I guess that's why I would say you're one of my favorite comedians. I think more of your bits are active in my life all the time. Another one is Chris and I regularly in bed try to do the, I mean, that's the thing. Have you ever noticed, here's the thing that I always say.

You never finish a sentence.

You just keep shocking yourself with this new realization and pivoting. It's so fun to do.

That's so nice. I don't hate hearing. I'm not like, no, please don't.

It's hard to respond to, though, isn't it?

Well, just say thank you.

But is that easy for you? Again, we're so identical.

So identical. We told you that we're like. I don't even know who's who.

Right. At this point.

I would actually do two alike.

It's too much. It's too much alike.

We only need one of these guys.

Should we do a double mint commercial? Will you direct it? Oh, my God. Look how tall. How could I not?

Stupid height. People who are like, I'm in it too. Seems like a good area. And it could even come from the fact that when I was a musician and I felt like I was struggling, I even had that element of like, I'm in a band. I'm in this.

Yes. Another affinity I have for you is I had a good friend growing up, Brent Champanella. He happened to be the best musician we knew, but he also happened to be the funniest person we knew in our circle. And he could do tons of impersonations. And he was so artistic.

I know exactly what you mean. Because a lot of my friends were that way. I believe it could have been any of us.

Could have gotten on SNL.

Definitely. Really, really funny people who also got me into comedy, who would show me videos or bands that were sort of comedic.

In their actual music. In their music. Butthole surfers.

Yeah, definitely.

I mean, it's in the fucking title of the band. Yeah.

I don't know that everyone knows the whole story, though, so I'd love to hear it.

So yeah, let's talk about it. So you're first a musician. You get out of high school. You go to the School of Visual Arts in Manhattan. That's not for you.

Not for me, but I went actually to find musicians. I was like, what do bands do? They meet each other in art school. And I did. I met Damon Locks, who became the singer of Trenchmouth.

Why did he have to go back to Chicago?

Transferred schools. He transferred to the Art Institute. He's still my friend.

And you followed him there? Yeah. To stay in the band?

And so this was what age?

Early 20s, maybe 21.. But it was my third year in college. Is the math right on that?

Yeah, that would be right. Yeah, that's right. Assuming you graduated at 18..

I graduated at 13..

You were a wunderkind. Oh, yeah. Oh, my goodness. That explains a lot.

I went to Chicago without testing. They just looked at me. They're like, dude, go to college.

Get out of here. You're wasting your time.

But anyway, so I went to Chicago. I was in a band. And, even though I've talked about that, it was hard and we didn't make it.

You toured and stuff, right?

We toured and we put records out.

Where would you play in Detroit? Would you play at St. Andrews or the Grounds?

We played at St. Andrews. And there was one other place.

University of Detroit had shows. A place called the Grounds. 404 Willis.

Wait, what was that one?

404 Willis.

I think that one. This guy used to put on shows there that were all ages.

And was it in the casket? or like a shitty, fucking burnt out part of Detroit?

Something is telling me that it was more like rural.

I just think I must have seen you. to be honest. There's no way. I hope so. Because I just went to whatever show was playing every weekend.

Well, at St. Andrews it would have been Jawbox, or it might have been Brainiac and Jawbox.

Saw both bands. Yeah.

We played in Michigan all the time. Even though we weren't as big as Tortoise, I got to say we had really good times. I drummed a lot. From talking into microphones, I think I got something from it. And I still love drumming.

At South by Southwest.

Yeah, this is 1998.. The reason I had the frustration is because at South by Southwest, there were all these talks about how to make it, how to get your band on the radio. And I was so frustrated. There's no science to it.

Yeah, yeah.

I was at a low point. So there's a little bit of like, yes. Anger. I tried to keep it jovial. I didn't make fun of anyone directly.

You were doing a German.

Yeah, a German journalist. Because they're very rude. They think they're being honest, but they say terrible things to you.

Like what was something?

This happened to me in my music days, where they would be like, oh, your group is not so good.

Also, I'm going to add that culture, which part of what I like so much about, is stuff just spreads so fast. Yes. It's like there was a zine and then everyone had the zine. And then there was this funny video and everyone had that.

Yes. Pre-internet. I'm not putting down the internet.

Oh, my God. The internet is one of our sponsors. Oh, yeah.

So internet, I just want to say thank you for all the weather stuff.

Traffic, maps.

Traffic and just research. Thank you so much. 24 hours a day. Let us not forget that. Always on.

So it would be like a show, basically. You'd come watch the thing as a show.

And I'd say a few things in the beginning. And then I just started getting gigs off of it.

Do you remember what it felt like to receive attention for that versus music?

It was a surprise in the speed. If my band put out a record, the amount of campaigning, please write about the record. This was just a tape that wasn't even out. And the fact that the Chicago Reader had this big article about this tape.

Oh, wow.