a talk with charli xcx [video]
2024-06-06 00:59:03
emma prefers to share her thoughts with a microphone rather than a physical human being, so thank god she has a podcast. recorded from the comfort of her bed...and some other fun places, emma talks at length about whatever is on her mind every week. anything really does go on this podcast. sometimes philosophy, sometimes a random story from 10 years ago, sometimes advice, sometimes fun interviews, and sometimes nothing at all. you never know what you are going to get, but that’s what keeps it interesting. new episodes every thursday and sunday, video available only on spotify.
Today, I am feeling a little bit more energized than usual. Because it's not often that I'm in the presence of a pop star. Okay, so I'm feeling very excited and I feel like I'm talking to not just any pop star. A pop star who is so fiercely unique and individual that they're almost in a category of their own. Charli XCX Are you kidding me? You obviously know Charli XCX, but she has done so much in her career, it's unbelievable.
So let me fill in some of the gaps for you, okay? Charli XCX, whose birth name is Charlotte Acheson, is a singer, songwriter, documentary maker, radio host, podcaster and co-owner and founder of the management company Project Gold. I feel like she's involved in the music world more than people know about, because she writes for other artists. While releasing her own music, she runs her own label, she directs music videos, co-manages developing artists, and she's collaborated with so many incredible talented people as well. Such as Blondie, Selena Gomez, Gwen Stefani, Camila Cabello, Shawn Mendes, Benny Blanco, David Guetta, the list goes on. Charli is truly a special creative in the sense that she has created a world around herself.
That is so.
Fun and indulgent to be a part of, so, without further ado, let me bring in.
The iconic Charli XCX. What's your drink? When you go out? I'll do an espresso martini sometimes, oh so you like, are a coffee girl.
I know I love coffee Stop, we're soulmates, I know.
Like, I'm not just like saying this because it's you and you have a coffee brand, but like.
Sometimes maybe you get this too, like at night I'll be like, thinking about, like.
Oh, in the morning, I get to have my coffee. Oh, I get so excited. And I have to limit myself to one nowadays because I'm the older I get, the more anxious I get. Yeah, totally.
Are you having that? Normally I'll have two a day, but sometimes it'll be three. But then I am very like, you know, freaking out, freaking out, really like texting and like, I'm just being a bit crazy. So now I try, and I was on two, now I'm trying to have one.
I know I'm doing the same. This is my second, though I've had two today too. This is also my second. What are you having? This is an Americano as well.
Is that an Americano or cold?
Brew.
It's I don't want to sound like a diva. I think it's an Americano, I think it's an iced Americano. Yeah, but I did say cold brew, but it tastes like espresso. They lied to you.
Yeah, but it's I'm having, I love it, It's amazing, I'm enjoying it. I just can tell, yeah, well.
I could also be wrong. Well, no, but it tastes so different. Cold brew can also be really sour, like, I, Yeah, it depends on where you go, but sometimes when you go to like a really fancy.
Place. It's like, Why is this sour? Are we allowed to talk about other coffee brands? Of course, no, we can talk about anything.
Who like? Obviously your favorite coffee brand is your coffee? Yes, Chamberlain coffee. Oh my God, this is my. I can't believe I'm promoting that. No, I love it.
You're my dream. I mean, this is water, but no, because I know, can I tell you again, I'm not just saying this because I'm here. I just think it's really smart. Thank you. Because, like, there aren't really many people who have coffee brands. Well, I feel like it's, but it's.
Such a like, duh, everyone's drinking coffee, yes, and also I feel like not a lot of people are like a nerd about it. No, you are.
Which is why I had to do it, because I was like, I am a nerd about it. But I'm also still I'm not like, perfect at it. Like, you know, you can, probably. It's like, I'm still a home barista at the end of the day, like, I'm not this fancy. Not weighing out the beans and shit, are you somebody who weighs out the beans?
Okay, so.
My fiance is so, have you met? I don't think you've met him? No, he is really into like, he's into coffee.
He got me, like, the scales for Christmas. That is unbelievable. He's like, really into it. Yeah, he's like, really into it, and he like, makes great coffee.
And sometimes I'll be like, can you just like, tell me the exact ratios? And he'll be like, it's not really about that, it's just about that feeling which is annoying. I'm like, shut up, well, that's. There's a number that you're turning the grinder to, and an amount that you're doing on the scale.
So can you just give me that information, please? And then so he did, and you know, and now I have a kettle with a thin spout. Like, I'm not that good at it, he's very good at it.
And I just try my best, but I know that you're supposed to have scales. Oh, no.
But I'm surprised, it shocks me that you have a coffee brand and you don't have scales.
No, I, no, I have a scale. Do I use it? No, never because I wake up in the morning.
I'm the type that, like, my morning routine, is like, get up and I'm out of bed immediately, like, there's not a thought and I'm downstairs. But at that hour, like, you know, when you first wake up?
You're not nearly sharp enough, you're not doing math and doing.. ..
For fuck's sake, a scale. I'm like, Hell, no. And so it's like, I am like scrappy with it. But I feel like I have it down so good that it's like I don't need it.
However.
Well, this is what my boyfriend's saying, it's feeling.
It's feeling so maybe I'm like, beyond needing the scale, however, I feel like I need it. What are you like? So your boyfriend's thing is the coffee?
Like, that's his, like little.
That's the hobby. Yeah, do you have one, like, What's your thing?
No, me either. I think it's watching movies, really. I watch movies a lot.
Yeah, like right now, because I'm kind of like working a lot. I'm not watching a film a night, but like, there's been phases where I will watch a film a night. And on the weekends, I'll watch like three films on Saturday and maybe two on Sunday. Whoa?
Yeah.
Well, I mean, I think it makes a lot of sense. Because I feel like when you're in one creative space, it just kind of makes you interested in every creative space. In a way. Like, I feel like it's film, it's fashion, like, I think....
Well, you must.
I mean, you're, I mean, you work in fashion. yeah, you work in coffee.
You work in fashion, yeah, it's like, I feel like fashion is your, it's kind of a hobby.
I was about to say fashion, I was about to say fashion, it's your passion and a hobby, and it's work kind of. But I feel the same about music, I mean, it's like I wouldn't make music unless I like....
You know, I love doing it. Yes, sorry, I just looked straight into the camera. Oh, you can do. I'm not wearing a bra and I'm like,....
Oh, me, either, are you kidding me? I'm like, Do I need to?...?
You look amazing.
But now it's crazy.
Also, you're wearing all black, so you can do whatever you want, that's why I'm wearing all black. No, you look chic and hot.
I'm like, I'm just wondering if my tits look saggy when I like, sit like this.
No, actually, they're really good.
Okay, great, now I'm like, being like crazy with how....
No, you guys all need to like. If you're not watching the video version of this, watch the video. They look amazing.
Now I'm holding them. Yeah, well, of course, anyways, whatever.
To hold them is to be like.
I feel like there's something about being in fashion, like you're in fashion as well. And there's something about being in fashion that makes you like, weirdly, you're used to....
You're used to like.
I can't explain it. There's like a comfortability that you get with, like being nude or like not wearing a bra and like having your boob out and shit. Like, Do you know what I mean? Yeah.
And it just makes you comfortable.
Well, I think it's fittings as well, isn't it?
Oh, everyone's all over you.
Everyone's all over you and I think we both have gay male stylists.
Yes, yes.
That we collaborate with. Yes, and so then you're not really like....
Well, you're not.
Nothing's sacred anymore. You're talking about your boobs, yeah.
You're holding them, they're like pushing them in a top.
They're taping them up. This shit's happening, but it's kind of nice because I don't know it feels like....
It feels communal, yeah, it's communal and beautiful about it.
Yeah, and it really becomes about like.
The clothes and creating a really great moment.
A canvas in a way, but with movies, well, you're acting now.
Yeah.
I need to know about this.
Well, I've been in one film that has not yet come out.
Yes, yes.
The film is a film called Faces of Death. And I was a fan of the original movie. And this movie was kind of like a 70s gore film. That kind of. I don't want to speak out of turn here.
But I'm pretty certain, in ways that, like, kind of began to kind of coin the genre of gore. It's basically like this film of found footage of murders, yeah, yeah, and it's kind of narrated over the top by this fictional doctor.
Yeah.
And this film is like, in the 70s, you would go to whatever blockbuster was then, yeah, and rent this movie. It was like, supposedly cursed.
Like, it was like a cursed film, you know? It was like you'd put it in and be like, anyway, I wasn't alive then when that was happening. But this is what I've been told. I was just a fan of the film from later.
So I saw that this film was being remade by a director called Daniel Goldhaber, who made Cam and how to build a pipeline. And I was like, damn, like, how are you remaking this? Yeah, so we met and we spoke, and then he was like, you should be in it.
And I was like, Whoa, that's crazy, and so I went to. It's a small role, and, you know, I play a co-worker of Barbie Ferreira, who's the lead in the film. But it was just....
I really got the bug from that.
Did you see yourself doing it beforehand, or were you, like, okay with being a fan?
What of that particular film?
No, like, in general, being like a movie fanatic.
You know, it's like I.
And I'm sure you've had this with your career. I feel like there are always people who are trying to like, push and pull you into different ways. Like, I'm sure there's somebody who's said to you like, Hey, Emma, you should act like Emma. Have you ever thought of making an album? Like, you know, there's always people who are trying to be, like, expanding the brand or whatever.
And I had definitely had, like a fair few people say like, Hey, Charlie, you should consider acting for a long time. And I had always sort of been like, you know what, I just don't feel that. That is a skill that you can just like, suddenly jump into, like people train and train and train, and you have to learn your craft.
And you have to understand, you know, like, in depth, so much about the way films are written, screenwriting like, script analysis, like, also the technique of acting. And you know, of course, there's feeling in it too, but like, I just at that point in time was like, that feels crazy, you know, yes.
So I kind of, like, wanted to, like, learn and research, and really only insert myself into that world, or try and insert myself into that world. When I felt like, at least like a tiny bit prepared and not just like showing up, being like, ugh.
And also, well, there's more pressure on you to do well because you're a public figure in another area. And same for me. People are not gonna willingly accept you into another sort of...
Sure, you gotta have respect, you gotta have respect for people who have made that their life, you know? Yes, I'm very aware of that, and that's also why I'm really interested in, like, you know, working with filmmakers who I love.
And that doesn't necessarily have to be like a massive role. I'm happy to, like, show up and do a scene and be like, learning and things like that. And that's very much what this was. I really. This is so funny.
I didn't think that we'd be talking about this at all, but I love it.
I'm.
Well, I think it's fun because I feel like little side projects like that actually end up making you like they can inspire you creatively. Elsewhere. Absolutely, I don't know.
When you're only doing one thing, it can be so.
It can just like.
It can fatigue you, you can get so burnt out, like you've been doing this since you were 16, yeah.
And I get that because I also started at 16.
And it's such a marathon.
Yeah.
And it's nice to sort of go off and do something else, like, you know, totally. Like, doing coffee is like a breath of fresh air from the other thing, of course.
Because it's like, you know, doing all these.
I think the more things that you can try and even be new at it can actually, like, invigorate and excite you. Totally ...in a way.
Yeah, I mean, I feel.
Yeah, like you said, I've been doing this since I was 16 and so that is now 15 years. And I would like to flex my creative muscles in other areas, or at least like, begin to learn about other areas in a very kind of like, studious way.
Yeah, and yeah, be really inspired. And like, I don't envision myself doing making music forever. Maybe I will in some capacity, but I just feel like there are other creative areas that I really want to explore.
And I feel like you must feel the same way, you know?
I'm curious, though, about, like, your process of sort of learning. I read somewhere that when you were, like, in the beginning of music, when you were, you know, starting to make music, you were like traditional. Like coaching or teaching. I don't fuck with it, yeah, and I have felt that way about everything that I've tried thus far, whether it's like publicly or even privately. Like doing like, you know, things like throwing shit at the wall and seeing if it sticks. And in other areas of entertainment, I guess when it comes to learning, things like, how do you prefer to teach yourself?
Um, it's so interesting because with music, it's like.
I never studied music at school, I never took like a class.
Yeah, whatever, yeah.
I learned piano, yeah, but I couldn't read music, so I would memorize the pieces, like my piano teacher would literally spend a year teaching me a piece.
And I would be like, and then like, scrape through the exam and do it all again. Yeah, but, you know, if you put a sheet of music in front of me now, I'd be like, No, I can't do it, you know?
Yeah.
But I guess it's like trial and error. I mean, being in the industry from such a young age taught me so much. You know, I'd go to songwriting sessions and I would like learn from people. I think that is how I learn best. It's like, I see what other people are doing.
I see this set of rules that they are perhaps navigating within, I take some of them, I disregard others, and then I kind of build my own set of rules, I suppose. And I think, for me, it's like, I have to constantly ask why.
I have to ask questions all the time, I have to be like, Well, why does it have to be that way? Yeah, because then you can kind of like, challenge that person or that tradition with the kind of alt, yeah.
Version of that, Yeah, like, why do you have to, I don't know, shoot a music video like this? Why do you have to roll out an album campaign like this? Why do you have to write a song in this structure?
Like, I just found, like challenging with questions. asking questions always provided me with like new and kind of more interesting answers. Yes, if that makes sense.
Well, I think, too, in a way when you're.
I think that there's something to be said for almost knowing too much. When you begin, yeah, a creative endeavor. Like, it's far harder, not that it's not possible, but it's far harder to, like, disrupt when you know too much.
Because you end up just following the rules and so like, I think there's something special about having, you know, enough knowledge so that, you know you can create something. Like you need the basic, like you need knives in the kitchen, you need to know how to cut things.
But like you don't need to know exactly how to make a recipe, that's how you can, I guess. Go in and disrupt and also bring a new sort of feeling to something. Yeah, which I think is far more exciting.
Well, I think there's a real like.
There's a really interesting thing about, like, naivety in creation. There's when you're kind of going in, like you said, you need knives in the kitchen.
I love that as a phrase. But yeah, it's like there is also this kind of exciting thing about, like, not knowing what's going on. That can produce really interesting and unique results.
Yes.
Yeah.
Starting really young, in what way was that really beneficial, and in what way was that kind of horrific? It's kind of horrific. You can really, really go in. That's like a big question.
Yeah.
Well, it's interesting, because, like, the benefit of starting young was, I got so much experience. I was thrown into a world like with adults, and I was learning so much, so fast from them. And that was really cool, and it was really cool to kind of get to know myself through that process, I suppose. But the negative side of it is like, when you were 16, you were cool.
Yes, Emma.
Thank you.
Yes, you were cool? No, no, no.
I look back and I cringe.
No, I mean, I'm sure everybody does. But when I and I feel this, when I look at like so many artists and creative people, it's like Billie, for example.
When she.
14, But she was so cool when I was 14, because I was making music. When I was 14, it was like,....
I was so lame, I was like, No, but I was just like, I think that, for me, is the negative thing, like, I feel like. As time has moved on, the culture of cool and aesthetic and references and being well-read actually is kind of happening, like, younger and younger and younger.
I feel like most, like 12-year-olds are cool now. You know what I'm saying, or have an awareness of, like my life is on the internet. I need to present in a certain way.
And I need to have certain interests, and I need to understand certain things and know what's kind of like. Even like, socially, politically like, culturally like, correct, incorrect. What's aesthetically pleasing versus not like? When I was 12, you didn't really like....
I mean, maybe if.
Maybe I was just like, super unaware and like, not very smart or like, cool, I don't know. But like, those things weren't crossing my mind really. I was just like, on myspace, being insane.
Well, it was so new.
No, it was so new. You were like, right before. There was like, Instagram as a tween, okay, because I got Instagram as a tween, and immediately it was like, Oh, fuck.
I need to get my shit together. And it was like, and I wasn't in the public eye yet. Like you were already starting your career at 14, really, you know what I mean?
14.
Like, everyone is a mess at 14.
You're a mess and like, it's impossible. It also was what was trending....
It changes literally every year. So like, you look back now and you're cringing. But it's like, that was what was I feel like. That's what was cool at the time. But it must be a nightmare, to an extent.
Because it's like it's permanently a part of you, like somebody who's not a public figure doesn't have to carry with them. You know their 16-year-old identity, even their, you know, like, they can shed it as they grow up. And it's like, you know, when you go from high school to college, you can shed your high school identity and just be a brand new person in college. And there's something really refreshing about that freedom.
And I think it's challenging identity-wise to, like, have to hold on to everything when it comes to making music, too, because people still listen to music that you made when you were a completely different person, I can imagine. How do you like maintain a current identity when you are kind of constantly being haunted of Charlie's past? You know what I mean?
Like, Yeah, I mean, again, I feel like this must be similar with you. It's like, I know that I have some really hardcore fans who have been with me through every kind of iteration of my career and understand my growth. And then I have some fans who are like, Oh, I love Charlie because she made Boom, clap and like, that's, you know, that's like their favorite song. And that's probably like my peak in their mind and what they associate me with.
Maybe, like, you have fans who are like, Oh, I love Emma when she was making these videos when she was 16.
And I don't really get her now. Yes, yes, or whatever, you know, and I feel like every person kind of has that.
And you know, there's different levels of fandom as well, there are the fans who are going to like, Ride or die for you. And you know, if you decide to like, do something completely, totally different than what you're working on right now. They'll still like, stick with you and follow with you because they love you and all of the kind of facets of your personality. Whereas there are other fans who just, and this is no bad thing, but they just like this kind of gravitate to one particular thing that you do. And so I kind of it's cool, like I'm at peace with it because I like that.
People like different aspects of my work and you know, you kind of have to celebrate that. And I think I'm always pretty like, I'll always like, try and well, sometimes I am not sure if this is a good thing. I kind of always try and like, play to my audience. Like, if I'm doing a more mainstream festival, I'll be like, I'll throw boom clap in.
But if I'm playing my headline show like, I'm not going to play Boom clap.
Yeah.
Although I have in the past, but, you know.
Yeah, but also I do think, well, that's actually I did have that question written down. Was like, maybe less about, you know, like the set list specifically, but more like, when you're creating something new, who are you making it for? Because I've and why are you making it?
For me, I make it, for me, definitely, that's good, yeah, and especially with this record, it's been very like, instinctual. I've just been like, not really thinking about the consequence or the outside world. Or even when I was making it, how it was going to be performed or anything like that.
Interesting, yeah.
I think I always think about how it's going to be presented visually, because that goes very hand in hand with my music making process. Yep, but yeah, really, just made music that I would want to hear in a club, basically.
Yeah, when it comes to the visual like, the relationship, the visual relationship, what's sort of the like, what's the process of that? Like, when do you start to imagine, like, what the visual identity is of a project? Does that just kind of come almost like, sort of like a universe-sent, sort of like vision or like? Is it something that, like, what comes first?
Or do you have, like, an idea? Sometimes you're like, maybe you can see in your brain, like the Pinterest board of it. And you're like, and then you're like, Oh, this is how I'm gonna. This is sort of how I want to make the music. What comes first?
It's both, and it's very chicken-egg situation. It's like, with this record, I wrote a couple of songs, some which have ended up on the record, others which got discarded. But I think after writing, after having like three or four songs that were like, Okay, these are going to be on the record. Was like, Oh, the title is brat and the world is very brutalist. And it's like this girl who, like, goes to a rave. And she's wearing a tank top and you can kind of see her nipples through it. She's like sweaty, but she's hot, she's like dancing with her friends. And, you know, I was just piecing this all together. And then that allowed me to go on and write more songs. Under this kind of guise of, like, I know what this girl wants.
You know, and that girl is me, but like, you know, I was kind of.
Does that make sense?
I completely know what you mean.
Yeah, so it's kind of both. I keep doing this thing where I keep randomly, just like looking into that camera.
It's like the office.
It's just like, suddenly, I'm just like, I'm that girl.
No, but it's kind of honestly lean into it because it's kind of fun. And like, do people even watch the video version? I don't know, it's possible.
They do, they must. I've seen it.
It exists.
I watched like I saw some TikToks of you and Owen.
Yes.
That must have been fun.
Oh my God, it was so fun.
Do you have guests a lot?
You know, it's been hard for me because I think I'm so used to.
I love conversations, but it's also hard for me to bring, thank God, but I'm so used to doing it alone, so having, like, a conversation a lot....
Like, I built the podcast on that, and so I didn't ever have guests on. And I was like, it would be nice to bring people on and sort of diversify the type of conversation that's happening. However, I think the challenge for me has been it's nice when you know the person.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I don't really, to be honest, like I don't know that many people like, I'm not super, you're not really like, out and about, No, I'm not, it's crazy.
Like, I'm so.
And I don't know why that is which I feel like you are out and about.
More than you? Yeah, like, no offense, not at all.
This is the life I live. No, no, no.
I remember the first time we met was at.
I don't know if I should say it because it feels like Showy.
Say it.
We.
Now it's more of a thing. now it's more of a thing we met for we met...
We were going for dinner, we had vegan chicken nuggets.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Why do I feel like we met before that? I don't know.
You know what?
I saw you at a Beanie Doobie show and I was like, That's Emma, she doesn't know who I am. And we kind of looked at each other.
I fully knew who you were, but I just.
We sort of looked.
We both kind of did the thing of like.
Yeah, we'll talk later, like, I am so bad about....
I get nervous in my head. This is my thing because I've been told so many times that I look different all the time. I always do this thing when I meet someone where I'm like, even if I've met them before, I'll be like, Hey, it's Charlie.
And they're like, Yeah, bitch, like, I know. But like, I've been told by so many people that I often look very different from time to time, from like one time to another time.
Weird, I think it might be a hair thing. Oh, see, I have that, because I always go blonde to brunette, blonde to brunette, back and forth.
But I'm like, Yeah, but then it's Emma, See, but I feel that way about you. Okay, well, that's nice to know.
But I also always feel like I don't introduce myself to people a lot because I'm like, they don't care.
Yeah, no, that's why I didn't introduce.
I was like, I don't want to go over and be like Emma Charlie, and also I wouldn't do it like that.
But it's easier on the receiving end. I hate doing it. I like, Yeah, no, same, it's nerve-wracking.
Because what if I was like, a bitch and you came over and you were like, Hey, Charlie, I'm Emma, and I was like, cool?
No, but that happens.
Go fuck yourself.
That, I swear it doesn't happen a lot, but that shit will happen, it's happened.
It's happened occasionally, and I would never, ever do that to anyone.
You would never.
But now knowing you, I'm like, you would also never do that to anyone, but you never know.
You fully don't.
You never know because someone could be just presenting as really cool. And then you meet them and they're like, Hey, why don't you fuck off?
No, it's.
Well, that's the thing I am weird about, just being this sort of quiet little fly on the wall in the corner, and I'm not, I don't know.
I'm not like a socialite, I'm not built that way, whereas I feel like, and being a socialite, that word, that term. I don't have a better one, but it's like, that's a skill.
I feel like we are very cut from the same cloth in the way that we interact with people and also the way that we go out.
I go out more than you, I do think, but I think when I'm out I behave the same way as you. Oh, totally, I'm just kind of like....
Yes, we were out in Paris and I felt so fun, but I felt.
We had a similar vibe where it's like, I mean, a lot of your identity is public identity is around this sort of like....
Girl who goes out.
Girl who goes out, but in a fucking cool way. That's like, it's not going out for anyone else, it's going out for you, that's your spirit, which is. I feel like something that is so it's a good message because I feel like that's when going out is a net positive.
Were you more of a party girl back in the day? And it's sort of like, fizzled now, or is it?
I don't know how has it evolved over the years.
It's honestly it's the same babe. I love that, though.
That's so good.
I definitely.
I'm 31 now, so I definitely have to pick and choose my moments a little bit more because I like to have some drinks. And when I was 19, I could go for it and never feel anything. And now I'm like, I got to be a little more selective. And for me, it's like, I always want to go out if I'm feeling like up for it. And if it's going to be fun, I never want to go out just because it's like an event that I have to do.
I really treat that as work, actually, and I'm sure you're kind of the same. It's like, if there's like a party that's part of a fashion show, most of the time, it's not turning into a really fun time.
Sometimes it is, it's rare.
Often it feels like work, and then you leave and you go and meet up with your friends. Like we did in Paris, in that random restaurant that we ended up taking over, which is so fun and so I still, I love it. It's like, for me, if I'm down, there's a good group of people, let's go.
I was curious about that because I think a lot of people as they go through their career. And as things evolve, they start to become like, you know what? I can't do these things anymore, I can't wear clothes like this anymore, or I can't go out like this anymore. They sort of stop themselves from doing things that are maybe fun or more like.
My problem is I have no control, which is also kind of a bad thing. If I do go to a fashion party that turns fun, for example. Like, I have no sense of like, now would be the appropriate time for me to leave. You know, I'm like, if I'm having fun, I'm like, Yeah, I'm like, I'm here.
But, like, someone has to fucking do that.
That's me.
At like, a corporate-ish party.
All the shit people are like, Oh yeah, no, we're like going at like, yeah, 10.30 and I'll be there till one like, woo.
No, but that's you, though, that just proves I think your like identity is honest.
Yeah, you know what I mean?
It is you, is that something that you're sort of like maintaining? Because you're like? This has been sort of my identity for so long, my brand for so long. Like, I'm going to stick to this and maybe it's not me anymore, but I still, it's still in me in some way. So I'm creating it for almost this, like, maybe this past self, or like this caricature of me. But it sounds like it's not.
I'm in it, it's fully you, I'm in it, I'm in it more than actually ever.
I think, like, I really, I think like. Making club music has sort of almost reintroduced me to the idea of like, being really down to go out and like, listen to club music and put myself in those environments. Because I'm making that music more so, I've kind of been collaborating with people more in that world and that opens me up to, like, oh, come to this thing, or someone's doing a techno party or whatever and that's really fun. I really like going out and I really like, you know, my fiance's in a band, so I feel bad saying this, but like, I really don't like. I like watching them, but I don't love going to like live shows.
I want to watch like a DJ, I want to go to a party.
I understand that.
No offense to bands out there like We Love You.
We love the bands.
We love the bands, we love the live music.
Yeah, but you're not like bumping, like you're not bumping.
You're kind of going like, yes.
I want to be like I could not agree more, like I almost either want something that's so slow and so crazy that everyone's sitting down.
Or crazy, crazy, crazy shit, right?
Yeah, you know what the thing is that is cool. It's like, obviously, if you're going to see in a band, if you're going to see a band in an arena, there is an option to sit, which is awesome. But if you're going to see a band who's maybe playing like the Shrine, like a 5,000 cap theater or whatever? I just feel like there should be an option for like seats.
Oh, I could not agree more. I'd love to, just like, have a little pop-up chair.
Fully.
Like, it shouldn't be mandatory to have to stand in a smaller gig. Like, maybe they could give us like stools, stools would be great.
You know?
Bare minimum, I think we're similar in this way. Where it's like it's our job to do these things, it's like it happens to be our like passions and the things that we enjoy also are our job. Whatever, there's also this like third element, which is the industry that we're a part of.
But I feel like both of us are like, we understand that this is here and we understand that there's a lot of opinions going on over here. Yeah, and that there's a lot of ways that things are supposed to be done in quotes, you know?
But I don't think either of us care about it. Yeah, totally like, So what's your relationship like to the man? If you will, like the industry, is it like, are you like, resentful towards it in a way?
Or are you more like, No, I just don't give a fuck, I'm just going to do what I want. And I appreciate your opinion. Or I appreciate the way that you think this should be done, I appreciate that you think that you know that this one's going to be huge.
And that this one's not going to be huge. I appreciate you telling me that I don't care, I'm going to do this anyway, like, Where are you at?
Yeah, I definitely, I'm definitely in the latter camp now of like, less, even like, Oh, I know you think this song is going to be huge and this one isn't. I don't even ask for the opinion like, I don't, I'm not interested.
Agreed.
I've had to really work really hard to get into that place. Where, really, like, the people that I work with leave me alone because they trust me, and that's great. And you know, they know that I'm not interested in the narrative around like successful songs versus unsuccessful songs. It's just it's like, I'm not operating in that space anymore, I'm not operating in like a space where I'm analyzing numbers.
And like, you know, I'm not, I'm not. If it happens, awesome, that's great, but it's not. My primary care. Like my primary care is that I'm able to make art that I really love and feel inspired by.
And then I hope that that sparks a conversation on a large scale, but I don't necessarily need the end goal of that conversation to be like, the best stats in the world. Like, I'm not competing with those kind of artists, like it's not. My music doesn't go hand in hand with like that, my music is music for the nighttime.
You can't play it in coffee shops, you can't play it in like a chill playlist on Spotify. Like, it's like, very specific, like, you know. And I'm so at peace with that and I love that because I love making that music.
So right now, I would say, yeah, the vibe is very much like, I'm just doing my thing. But it's interesting that you mentioned resenting the man, because I've definitely been there too. I've definitely been at points in this place of like resentment. With the space that I found myself in in my career and who's to say I won't end up back there, you know?
Like, it's definitely like a pendulum swinging one step forward, two steps back, kind of thing, you know? So I've definitely been there, I've been being like, why am i not a different artist? Who can have all that I have, but also have all of these other things that I don't have? You know, I've definitely been there, but right now I'm like, very at peace.
Because I think it's because I'm really, really happy with the music that I've made, yes.
It's so hard when you're not 100 on what you're creating and then that voice comes in, you can't handle it, it stings. Whereas when you love what you're making, it's like you have this protective bubble around you and like, nothing can touch you. And so it doesn't matter what the fuck happens, because you're so stoked on what you made that nothing else matters.
But you can't always be there.
No, it's a hard place to be and you have to work to be there. You know, I've really had to work to get myself into a place where I'm, like, you know, if this all fails and everything burns to a crisp, that's fine. Because I stand by this work and I've definitely in the past, like, kind of kidded myself into that. And maybe if things haven't gone exactly the way I thought of, it has felt like there's been a sting.
But with this, it's like, I really believe in this music and I really believe in kind of the culture around this record. Yeah, and I think it's doing something quite unique and different and progressive, and maybe not everybody will see it that way.
And that's okay, but for me, I really feel that if I was watching this album campaign from outside, I would be my interest would be pipped. Is that the word?
I don't know if it's the word, but I fucking love it.
Pips my interest. I love pipped, it's pipped right, it doesn't matter because it's so good.
And you just trademarked that if it didn't exist before, I'm pipped personally, so that's obvious personally pipped, I'm personally pipped.
Yeah, so I don't know.
So I feel good about it, basically.
I'm curious about your work-life balance because I find like, it's so tough. Because, well, you're in a relationship, but you've worked with him, correct? What was that like, like combining that?
It was like, really sexy to begin with, because I think we were both trying to, like, really impress each other.
Oh, I love that, you know.
So I think we were both quite nervous, but we were both like being sexy.
Yes, that's so good.
And then now it's like the opposite. Now I'm like, because he is the person that I'm obviously like most myself with.
Of course.
I can be really snappy with him.
Oh, totally.
You know, I'll be like, George, why? like, let's do it, why don't you comp the vocal? and he'll be like, Can you chill out? you know? Whereas with other producers, I would never be like,—.
Oh, well, you're on your best behavior.
You know?
Oh, I work with my dad a lot, like he'll film shit for me or like, whatever, Oh, I'm a fucking nightmare. Even with my stylist Jared, he'll take photos for me, like when we do fashion Week, he also takes my photos.
And I'm like, Jared, we need to eat.
We need to eat.
I'm hungry, jared, like I could not understand that more. But that's also like, I feel like you get the most honest result out of that in a way.
You do, you do? Wait, hold on. I'm like, obsessed that Jared does all your pics.
Oh, all my fashion week photos, really? yes, like, especially last fashion week, he was like,—.
Like, do you have, like, a little camera thing?
It's like a little piece.
It's not even like this. Yeah, you have the camera.
It's tiny and like three settings.
I get it, I get it. no, it's great, it's perfect.
I also am good at like, color grading, and I like, get in there and color grade for like four hours.
Does Jared have like, the angle? Like he knows he's like, Emma, wait, work.
Well, I don't trust fucking taking photos.
There's nothing—.
If there's not someone taking a photo who cares about it being flattering, it's honestly the worst experience. It ruins my life.
I know well, it doesn't anymore.
Like, I'm trying to not care.
You're great at Fashion Week, though. thank you. I mean, also, like, the number of shows you do is insane.
I don't know why I keep doing that.
Well, I think, because like,—.
Because I love it.
You love it and you love putting an outfit together, you do it really well.
Thank you.
But like, when I see you at Fashion Week and if I see Jared and he'll be like, Oh yeah, we're gonna do like, Miu, miu, we have Loewe. We did it. I'm like, what?
I'm like, how are you changing in between them? are you changing in the car?
Oh, we've never had to change in the I've never planned it so that I'd have to change in the car.
So you go back to the hotel.
And do glam again.
But you sometimes will do like five shows a day.
No, I've only the most I've ever done in a day is, I think three. Wow. And I somehow had a gap that, like, allowed me. One was super early and then one was like, 8 p..m. But I like, I like to go back and do glam again and have like, a full new look. Because it's honestly that's like, what's fun about fashion for me?
Yeah, like, it's like, when you get to go and do the full fucking look, I know you're the same.
But you know what's funny about me with Fashion Week? It's like, I can't do the number of shows you do because I want to go to all the parties.
Oh, I—.
So I can't do it because I'm like, I can't.
It's like the hangover, no? They're like, Oh, if you're like, you know, I don't know. Like going to like some like Loewe dinner and then like, Loewe party. And I'm having that time of my life.
Yeah, but then you've got to, like, wake up in the morning to go to a show at like 10 a.m, which means you have to glam at 7. Yes, ah.
No, I don't go, no, I, I go out.
See, this is why I can't do all the shows.
Last season I did not go to one. I went to like one party for like five minutes and I was like, I'm all good. Well, you know what happens to me, though?
Do you do dinners? Do you just like, go for dinner with Jared?
Love the dinners, like also sometimes the brands will have dinners, I love going to those, I'll go to dinner with Jared. We do room service always.
Also, a lot of times my dad is there, too. I'm like, So well, like dude, and he's like, fun, chill, cool dad, so like, he like, we gossip with my dad about this shit, that's fun, I don't know.
But it's so weird. I'm the type that, like, I had this like single phase. Yeah, that was so hot, and I was like, So, not really, though.
It was hot in the sense that you were, like, out, I was so out, you would have not recognized me. But I'm only, and so I have it in me to go all fucking night.
I know you do, but I don't doubt it.
But the second I have a fucking boyfriend, it's done.
I get it, I get it, and I can definitely be like that with George, you know?
Do you party with him? Yeah, see, that's it's if you have somebody who loves to party, too. —.
That's nice.
He likes to DJ, so we'll go out and he dJs, and I'm like dancing.
And maybe I'll like, that's unbelievable.
DJ A little bit, too, you know, so it's fun like that, yeah, and I really encourage him to dance because I think he looks really cute when he dances.
This is so, probably so embarrassing for him. I'm like, he looks like—.
Well, you guys, he can dance.
Well, I mean, I mean—.
So he can't dance, but he's cute when he dances.
I like boys who are just like, not afraid to just be like, yeah, like, even if they suck, I think there's a charm in, just like, going for it.
To be free is to be handsome, rather right.
Oh my god, right? Yes, need knives in the kitchen or whatever? To be free is to be handsome.
For fucking like tattoo inspo.
So whatever I say, I don't know, we're killing it.
Yeah, well, we're coming up with new, everybody's going to get this shit.
Yeah.
These are Instagram captions, These are Merch. Oh my god, I can't wait for our Merch club.
I know it's going to be amazing.
It's going to be major, it's going to be so good. So like, what are you stoked about right now?
I'm kind of stoked about, like, for the first time, feeling like I have a pretty good work-life balance. Oh so good, you know. I feel like really just happy to be living my life. A little bit like, because I feel like, you know, you can always function and you can always, like, live inside this like manic schedule of, like all these different things that you have to do. But actually, it's really nice to be like, you know, just like pause that put it on ice, and actually just like, spend time with my friends or spend time with my family.
Do this and the other, and not have it be about, you know, work. Although sometimes it is, it's like, more recently for me, I've been really able to be like, I'm going to take this weekend to just like, watch like, four movies. Yes, I'm going to take this weekend to. You know, like yesterday, we all cooked lunch together and swam.
Gorgeous, that's what you. We need more of that.
Gorgeous Terry made a dandelion salad that's beautiful. Yeah, he came around with a big like Nara Smith style wooden bowl stop.
And he made a dandelion salad.
Fuck, that's I'm kind of like.
Do you know who Nara Smith is?
Are you kidding me?
Okay, sorry, I can, can I just say?
I'm so obsessed with her.
I only like, I guess I am so late, I am beyond.
Yeah, but.
I'm beyond late. I discovered this woman three days ago.
Okay, for me, it was like a month, and for everybody else, it was like a year.
Yeah, we're both late, we're late, we're late.
Okay, yeah, we're late.
But I discovered her three days ago and all I'm getting now on my TikTok feed is her. Her. And like people parodying her, and more of her. And like her husband. And I just, I just can't get enough.
Does it make you like? I watch it and I want to be a mommy?
Me too.
Like, Does it make you want to go mommy vibes?
She's just so gorgeous.
I know it seems so easy for her.
It seems so easy for her. How have you woken up so early to make this cereal?
No, it's unbelievable. What time are you getting up?
Are you getting up at 4am?
I can't. She wakes up, she doesn't sleep, but yet somehow she sleeps a full night. I don't get it.
A full night, she's like, peaceful and tranquil, but she's also like, up at 4am, making like homemade cinnamon crunch.
And she's so pregnant, and she's never showed a symptom.
She's always pregnant, and I've never seen her complain. My God, is she just the happiest woman on earth?
I think she really loves being pregnant.
Yeah, some people are like that.
I mean, who knows, maybe she hates it, I don't know, she's like, I hate it.
I'm assuming a lot about Nara, I assume everything about her.
Me too, and you know what?
She's okay with it. Do you dream of being a mommy one day? or are you like, fuck, no?
Um, I really am so back and forth about it, to be honest. Like, I definitely wasn't somebody who kind of like, dreamed of that. You know how some people are like, I was born to be a mother. Yeah, like I've never really like felt that level of needing that.
I also was somebody who, you know, I as a little girl, I was never like, I'm gonna get married one day. I never like dreamt about my wedding in that way that some girls do, or in that way that you know like. I think society like painted like little girls as like dreaming about their wedding dress like, I like. It didn't cross my mind once, you know, but now I am planning my wedding.
I'm being absolutely insane and it's so fun, I'm having so much fun.
I can't imagine.
It's so fun, it's so weird, but we're also being like, crazy. We're like, I don't know whatever we're like, we're gonna have this like, really epic, like cigarette station.
And we're gonna have these people like walking around with like silver trays of cigarettes. And our like, wedding planner is like, okay, like, shall we just decide, like, you know, like, the food? And we're like, fuck it.
It doesn't matter.
Everyone's just gonna smoke, like, you know, we're just being like, So dumb. But yeah, so the babies thing, it's like, I don't, I don't know. Like some days I'm like, yes.
Yeah, I actually have a song about this on my album, like where I'm kind of talking about. Maybe this is too sterile to say it like this, but the pros and cons of motherhood and like.
That makes complete sense to me.
I think there's like a lot of things that we have to sacrifice, absolutely, and I think obviously we live in this world now where everybody's like, no, but like, you don't have to sacrifice anything. Because you can, like, be a mom and work and do that, and you know, whatever. But I think there's just so many different like things that come up.
No, you absolutely have to sacrifice things, yeah, and to say that you don't is not.
It's not realistic.
It's also okay to sacrifice things.
Totally, it's totally okay. I would worry that there would be some like resentment.
Absolutely for me.
And I feel like maybe there's a lot of like nervousness around, like talking about the possibility of feeling that way, because that does. Does that equate to being a bad mother? I don't think so. I think it just equates to being like a human being.
Agreed.
But I think like there is a lot of kind of fear and like nervousness around being able to, like, completely talk, like, totally openly. About. You know how we as women feel about, like, the potential of, like, having a baby or being a mother. Because I think we can be so shamed into, you know, like, I think there's a lot of like people want to shame us about, like, maybe like, if we don't want to be moms.
Well, you're damned if you do, and you're damned if you don't.
It's like, exactly so I haven't really figured it out, to be honest.
I don't know, I don't really know.
You don't need to know.
Do you know, do you want to have kids?
I do, and I came to that conclusion from Norah Smith.
Shut up.
No i—.
Our shining light.
I literally thank God for her, she showed me everything I needed to know about motherhood. No, I decided I did only because I think I like, I accomplished my dream in a way. Career-wise, I don't need any more, necessarily career-wise. I'm like, sort of at a place where it's like, now I just want to just do things that are fulfilling for me, which is an absolute treat. And like, it's a treat to do it that way. And it's like, but I don't necessarily have this goal anymore.
And so I kind of had this identity crisis for a long time, like, Well, what is my goal in my life? Then? Like, what is it? And I thought about it for a long time. And I came to the conclusion that for me, it was having a family of some sort. So it's like, no matter how it sort of forms and in what way that is. I was like, I think that is going to be the most fulfilling thing I can work towards.
Because for me, I'm not fulfilled enough by anything like, you know what I mean? Like that I feel like I need. Whereas some people don't need that. Like, some people are, like, fulfilled by, you know, sort of pursuing this like magnum opus of, like whatever their ultimate creation is, or something. You know, there's some people who are like, Fuck a family.
I don't need to do that, I want to create this like piece of art that lasts for longer than me. Or, like, you know, some people are just like, I want to help other people. I don't need a family, I can go find family elsewhere and help.
Like, it's different for everyone, what that is for them, but I don't know. For some reason. It was like, I think I have to, yeah, like my gut was like, Emma, you have to. But that also might change.
Like, I don't know.
I remember when I was 21, I was like, obsessed with the idea of having a baby. And I was with a guy who was a nightmare. Oh, fuck. And I was like, I'm gonna have a baby with him, and I'm like, thank God, I didn't.
Thank fucking God you didn't, but I was so in my head.
And then I swung the other way to like, I'm never having a baby, and then I like, it's like, I've been. I've definitely been like, I want it, I don't want it, I need it, I don't, you know.
So who knows?
I've been there, too, who knows? I was kind of like, really, against it for a long time, and then I was like, I don't know, but I also think, too, it does.
People like, don't think about how important who you choose is.
Yeah.
Like, it's weird.
But then also sometimes people do it on their own, and that's really cool.
Well, that's great, because then you're not relying on anyone else.
You know, and I think everybody's scenario is so different and personal, and I don't think there can ever be like a blanket view on like.
No, I know exactly what you mean.
Having a child, yes, you know, because it's just everybody's life is different.
Even when you're getting married, like, it's like, it's such an intimidating decision, you know what I mean, like, Holy fuck, who am I marrying right now? Yeah.
You know what I mean? totally like, Has that been? I mean, I guess?
Am I nervous to get married? Yeah, yeah.
So what do you think of your husband? Do you like him or no? Um, I don't know. It's like, it's a. It's a big part of growing up, that's like, terrifying.
Like, my parents are divorced, so I was always like, I actually really am not afraid of divorce, though.
Right, right, right, right.
Because they got divorced and I was like, it's all good.
Are they friendly? Yeah.
Cool, which is like a godsend, so like, for me, it's not as scary.
That's interesting. Well, see. For me, marriage isn't really a big deal because my parents didn't get married until I was 16..
Whoa?
Yeah, yeah, so marriage has never been this like weighted thing in my household, it's never really been like this thing that was ever expected of me. Or, you know, and when my parents did get married, I went to the wedding and there were like three other people there, you know?
And my mom, like, wore a dress from Zara. It was never, it was not this like big thing, you know?
So I don't have this. To me, it's just like George and I getting married. Because we like, really want to, and we love each other. But also we like, really want to throw like, a massive party, you know, and like, I don't doubt, I mean, you know, God, who knows?
But, like, I feel very much like this, is it?
Yeah.
But marriage, like it, would be it without the marriage element, too. Thousand percent.
You know what I mean? yes.
So I just don't have this like weighted thing on marriage basically, which maybe is naive of me, I don't really know.
Oh my god, your wedding is going to be so sick. Are you wearing like a traditional dress? Wait, don't tell me anything, actually.
Honestly, haven't got that far yet.
Okay, great.
I feel like we're so lucky in that, like we're so used to, like doing fittings. Oh, this is, yeah, five days before that. Like, I'm not stressed about that, and I know that, like Chris, my stylist also isn't, because, you know, you know what I'm saying.
He knows what the fuck's up, yeah.
We'll figure it out. yes, he's very privileged and spoiled with me, but we will figure it out. No, of course.
You are an absolute rock star. thank you for talking to me for so long. So are you? No, this was so fun.
This was fun.
It was so fun.
Same, I had a really good time.
You need to be my co-host, that's your next job.
I would love that let's do it, okay, send me coffee.
Oh, I will be sending you like you just need to text me that address.
I want the cold brew bags.
Oh, that's easy for me, that's what I want really badly. You're gonna have so fucking much good.
That you're gonna never be able to like.
I want a lifetime subscription, please.
Done that's done, consider it, fucking done.
Done.
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