Willem Dafoe

Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. I'm Dan Rather and I'm joined by Mrs. Padman.

Hello.

Hello.

Our last Monday interview of the year.

Oh, interview, but we'll be back to talk about best of. That's right. Yes, and Christmassy gifts. That's right. Okay, good.

Please don't. We have an update.

On our holiday sweater.

Yes, so we've been doing a special holiday, limited edition sweatshirt for the past two years. We did it two years in a row. Okay. Or three maybe.

Not three, I think three. We had the yellow one, then we had the one that I drew with the dick and balls.

Yes, and then the one with the robot. Okay, we've had three, I just don't really count the first one. The yellow one. Yeah, because you didn't.

Although you have it, I still see people in it, and it's beautiful. Oh. It might be better than all the others.

If you wear it, I count it.

Yes. I just didn't draw it, that's all.

That's why, yeah. To me, it's the ones you draw are the real ones. Yeah. So you have drawn another sweatshirt for this year.

You had the idea, you had the concept and then I drew it. Yeah. Yes.

And it's really cute, really, really good drawing, and I love it. And just keep your eyes peeled for those to go on sale. They're not ready yet.

Right, we gotta get them printed. Yes. Now the drawing's done, now we go to the prints.

We were a little late, but we thought better late than never.

Yeah, that's what we decided, better late than never.

So probably January those will go on sale. Okay. Yeah.

Maybe, if we're lucky, you could order them in December and give someone a-.

Like a printed-.

Says it's coming, you know?

Sure, we could do a pre-order. Yeah, because then people can print it out and say this is coming.

Yeah, this is coming sometime in 2024..

Yeah.

To further aggravate everyone.

Yeah.

No, but yeah. We do apologize on our lack of punctuality.

But it's worth the wait, it's a really good one. Yeah. All right guys, so just keep your eyes peeled.

Yes, keep them peeled. This was fun and unique on all the levels, because we did it on a Sunday. Yes. Which we don't ever do. And it's with, in my lifetime.

Character actor.

Yes. Yeah. That I just, as I said to him in this interview, I've never had an illusion I'd be on a set with him. Like he and I are never gonna be in the same kind of movie. So I just ruled him off into like he lived in an ethereal plane that would never intersect with ours.

Kind of like John Baptiste, is a true artist. Yes. And it's really fun when we get to have those types of people on. Art in their soul.

Yeah. Willem Dafoe, man, he's just walking the walk. He has been nominated four times for the Oscar. So impressive.

Yeah.

He, of course, was in Spider-Man, Inside the Lighthouse, Platoon. Best death scene of all time. It's iconic. The Antichrist. He has a new movie that is out right now in theaters with probably the best cast of 2023 imaginable.

Can I say, wait, I wanna say something real quick. The credit list is like dumb. It is dumb. Like. it's like dumb to read his credits.

He's done 150 movies. And then, as you're talking to them, you remember he's in every single movie.

He's in every movie. Yeah.

At some degree. All your favorite directors, he's worked with them multiple times. Everyone loves to invite him back. But his new movie, Poor Things, this cast, is ridiculous. Emma Stone, Mark Ruffalo.

Yes, Rami. And Gerard. And Gerard. Gerard is in this movie? Yes.

Oh, my gosh. Everybody you'd want.

This is incredible.

The visually dynamite of the cast of A Lifetime. Please enjoy Willem Dafoe.

He's an object's man.

He's an object's man.

He's an object's man.

When you stay at the Chateau. When I need sleep, I can't sleep. And I thought, you idiot. Of course, I would think about it. Yeah.

But it is so lovely there. I would feel the pull to stay as well. I like it. I like it. It's back up and partying over there.

Yeah, I mean, it's not what it used to be. As far as funkiness, it's nicer than that now.

Yeah, I know. I wish I could go back in time and see it. And it's heyday.

Oh God. One of the first times I ever stayed there, I was staying in bungalows and the police lines were still up from Belushi.

So it's really a marker in my head, you know?

Wow.

Oh man. Classic Hollywood.

Room service was like just cheese sandwiches. Really? Yeah, yeah. It was very down and dirty.

Now the food's great. They've stepped it up from cheese sandwiches.

Hey. Hi. How are you? How are you? Very good to meet you.

Thanks. So sorry I'm, I guess I'm. No, I'm early.

Oh. How early were you?

I'm an early bird. 15 minutes or something. No!

Oh, my gosh. I'm so sorry. You were offered coffee. I'm good. I'm good.

I do.

I did get a piece. Ah, shit. We got to coordinate that one of these times.

I know. We will.

Mr. Defoe, welcome.

What's up? How are you? I'm good.

Have you ever done. Surely you have.

Podcasts.

That's one question. Very few. Okay, which ones? I can't remember. Moneyline.

You did. Yeah, and he said, what are you doing? I gave him the rundown of the day, and he said, you going to do Dax?

Oh, I feel flattered by that.

That was the first one. Oh.

Yes, I love it.

Is it a secret which podcast that was?

Sam. Harris. No.

Jones?

Sam Malone. Faragosa.

Faragosa.

Faragosa. Faragosa.

Faragosa. Faragosa.

Ah, sorry.

He's a young guy.

You don't need to do this.

I'm just curious. No, I'm curious. No.

We'll give him a shout out. I immediately like him that he thought we would be on the list.

No, well, he was like, yeah, of course.

You know, he was like.

In fact, I said to the guy, are you in competition? No, no competition.

Talk easy.

You're the big dog.

Oh, talk easy. Rob knows. Rob figured it out. Talk easy. Talk easy.

You've done your research. Yeah.

Well, when you grew up in Wisconsin, I'm just a neighboring state in Michigan. Yeah, I know that.

How would you know if you did your research?

Oh, my God.

You know, you don't want to be rude.

Flattery abounds. Miss something.

That's real nice.

Okay, so Wisconsin, Michigan. These are not too dissimilar.

Yeah, unfortunately now.

Yes. Crazy. Very interesting, right? Crazy.

For different reasons, but they're kind of like brother and sister. They are.

We even joined the UP.

And the UP is a special place.

It is up in the UP. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

This sounds familiar.

Baby got diarrhea.

Oh, okay.

Mamma mia, papa pia.

Is it new to you?

I think we had a different flavor, but okay.

So you'd say mamma mia, papa pia, baby got diarrhea. And a friend of mine and I were sitting around talking about if we had a time machine. And I said, you know what I actually think I'd want to use the time machine to discover is the very first time that was said, mamma mia, papa pia. And here's what I figured out. I want to know if you think this holds any water.

Like it was very positive.

Like. I know you're scared, but it's just diarrhea.

No, but a lot of people died of diarrhea back then.

Sure.

Well, that's the non-silver lining of that. Yeah, that's right.

It's kind of amazing when a joke appears about something really topical. How does that happen? News event happens and the next day you hear a joke. Where is that born? I mean, normally at a bar.

You're right. Mamma mia, papa pia. This is a mystery. Well, you got it.

You got it.

He invented that theory. Let's be clear.

But would you agree? I think that kind of specific thing, a joke like that, that's born out of some topical thing. It's two folks that keep topping each other. Someone says, like, you know, mamma mia, mamma mia, papa pia, right? You have to keep upping each other.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

The richest man in Mexico, Jeff Pesos. Yes, got it, got it, got it.

Sorry. I feel really cringy about it.

No, no. Usually it works really well.

David Sedaris said it was his favorite joke he had heard this year. I sent it to him. So I'm just going to brag. I'm going to defend myself.

No, it's not bad. You know, I like it.

It sounds racist, but then you think about it and you're like, no, it's just wordplay.

I remember being in a room once with him, and I said to my wife, this is the guy you've made rich, you know, and she turned around and she said, oh, Jeff, you know, because she likes to shop online.

Oh, sure.

Oh, who doesn't?

I don't.

You don't do it?

No. I don't even know how.

As a matter of principle, or you've just never stumbled?

I don't need stuff. I mean, to be fair, people get stuff for me.

Yeah. Sure, sure.

Like she does.

She orders the shit on Amazon.

But I don't need stuff so much. Yeah. If it sounds like boasting, it's not.

No, it doesn't.

And actually, you've planted a seed that I will be revisiting towards the end. There's different things about your life and career. I admire. That one plays a role, I think, in ultimately. But back to Wisconsin.

Are we going?

Yeah. We're always going. We're insane in here. ABR.

We've been going since cheese sandwiches.

Oh, God.

But we cut, by the way.

I'm good. I say live by the sword, die by the sword. Put the bad shit in.

Leave a soup to nuts the whole experience.

We had Michael Shannon on, and he told this story. And 14 times throughout the story, he was like, you can't put this in. You cannot put this in. This is really bad. And by the end, he was like, you can put it in.

Spoke him like a true actor.

Yep, exactly.

Okay, we've never interviewed anyone on a Sunday.

I know. Thank you for that.

And it feels so fitting that on the day of the Lord, we have someone who played Jesus. We're never going to interview someone who played Jesus again, especially on a Sunday.

You don't know that.

Well, we might.

It would be a controversial one.

Oh, Caviezel.

No, Mel Gibson.

Well, he directed it. Caviezel played him.

Oh, oh. Okay, yeah. Okay, there we go. Then no, we won't.

But he won't show up on a Sunday, I bet.

No. Yeah.

He'll be at rest.

I understand he's quite devout.

Well, you can learn a lot when someone leads a QAnon rally. Like, you can't accidentally find yourself leading. You and I have been invited to stuff. We show up. All of a sudden, we're looking around.

Maybe. Maybe. I hope not. Maybe. I've been in places where I show up and it's not what I thought it was going to be.

You're getting bigger.

Right.

And I didn't know anybody in L.A. And I was in a panic. I went to the first place I saw. And I knew nothing about L.A. And I thought, I've got to start right away.

Yes, like a West Hollywood.

I stayed. No problem. But it took a little adjustment in my head. And everybody was very helpful. I'm sure.

I'm sure they were.

I'm delighted to say to you, I have the same story from 16 years ago. I don't know New York very well. And we were staying in an apartment. And similarly, I was playing an underwear model in a movie. So I had to be in great shape.

No, actually, everybody was very cool. It was me that was freaked out.

That's really funny.

Yes, yes.

What year was that? 82-ish?

82-ish.

I remember that movie. Did he drive around in like a 50s convertible car?

The hero did, but I was on Big Hog, yeah.

Yeah.

There were like 50, 60 of them. It was quite a spectacle.

And then somehow that song,

On the dark side.

That's related somehow?

The big song of that was I Can Dream About You. Oh. I can dream about you.

Oh, I love that song.

If I can hold you tonight.

You got it. Yeah, yeah.

That's not, Home Alone's maybe?

No, it's um.

Dan Hartman?

Dan Hartman.

Isn't it great to have an external hard drive?

Fantastic.

Okay, can we talk about Wisconsin a little bit?

Let's.

1955, dad's a surgeon, mom's a nurse that actually works with dad. Yeah. That feels very impossible and hometowny and neat.

And also, eight kids. Eight kids. They were kind of amazing that they kept it together. And our house was kind of together, but kind of chaos. Basically, my sisters raised me.

What order are you?

I'm seventh, so I'm the addition. I'm the oops.

Yeah, and what's the age you get between you and the oldest sister?

It's, what do they call it, Irish twins. It's pretty much boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

Even the oldest sister is only six years older?

Every two years, I don't know, she's probably two, four. Figure it out. Okay.

We'll do fast math. Ten years.

Ten-ish. More than ten years.

Twelve.

Okay. Fourteen.

Because you're seven. Fourteen years. Okay. In my experience in life, guys who had many older sisters really, really did well in the world.

I've seen this to be true.

In a lot of ways. They know how to talk to females. They've been dominated by them, because they're older, and so they have a respect for them that your average oldest boy doesn't have. I think it's a good way to go, is what I'm saying.

For me, it was great, because I became the fly on the wall. I got a lot of inside information. Okay. Yeah. They gave me a big education.

Knowing only about one of your brother, that seems obvious that he had the list of things you should do to be a man.

He followed in my father's footsteps, and the other one just beat me up.

laughter.

For his amusement. He had fast hands, man.

There were no rules in my house, but I was fast. I mean, fast in my legs. I was a lover, not a fighter, always have been.

I gotta state some global thoughts I have about you, because you'll understand where each of these things were landing. You're so interesting, it's insane. In fact, I can't even believe I'm meeting you, because I didn't do the kind of movies that you did, and there's no way I was going to meet you in that way.

It's never too late.

It's never too late, you're right.

I'll come over to your side. laughter.

I'm out of retirement,

let's go. Idiocracy fan here.

Oh, that's always wonderful to hear. You're an enigma wrapped in a whatever the...

I'm a pig in a blanket.

Oh, you're a very eclectic, interesting, intriguing unicorn, and it's hard for me to picture you in Wisconsin, and I have to assume you were probably hungry to get out of there.

I was, and not for any negative thing. I mean, I think I grew up in a good way, but I always sensed there was another world out there, and I always wanted to get out there. And it wasn't a specific ambition. I was always interested in performing, I was always interested in making things, but it didn't make any sense that that's something I could do for a living. And I don't mean that in a coy way, it just wasn't practical.

You certainly never bumped into anybody in Wisconsin who was a professional actor.

Ah, there were. I remember it, I was thinking about the musical hair the other day, which somehow sometimes stays with me. Yes. I remember seeing that in Chicago, and it's the first time I saw naked people on stage, and I thought, that's cool. People do that.

Oh, really? And then also, interestingly, you have 2 other famous people from your town.

Ah, 2, very specific.

The pride of your town,

Joseph McCarthy. The pride of my town is, no, he's not.

laughs.

Who'd you say? Joseph McCarthy. Joseph McCarthy.

was from my town. Wow. Isn't that wild?

That's crazy.

And Harry Houdini grew up there. He wasn't born there, because I think he was from Budapest.

Yeah.

But he grew up there. His father was the cantor at the synagogue.

And then died in Detroit.

Yeah. At a show.

Got punched in the stomach in Toronto. Oh God. It's wild, right?

Yeah, I think about Harry Houdini more than I should probably.

I do as well. And I have to say, if I had to say there was a Harry Houdini of acting, I weirdly, if I had to just pick, I'm not saying it's a perfect parallel, but here's your group of actors. One of them, you have to say, is Harry Houdini. It's kind of you.

I like that. Yeah, right?

I like that.

You have that. When he goes home, do bats come out of the rafters and greet him? What's happening? But Houdini?

almost feels a little.

Well, don't forget Spider-Man.

He made his way.

What do you latch on to about Houdini? that is interesting?

He's a guy that devoted himself to kind of a strange profession. Studied all this stuff and then found a way to make it performable. And a certain kind of mastery of his breathing, his body, those fall in line with the ambitions of training, your instrument, as they say. Just a guy that sees something and goes towards it and works very hard on it. And then, of course, the fact that he dies tragically is juicy.

laughs. There is, I think, a perversion and an occultness to his pursuit. And part of what makes it so exciting is that he committed to it and the world caught up with it.

That's it. I guess that's what I wanted to express about him being a commercial success. That was also a time, well, I don't know his years enough. Hey! laughs.

Wobby Wob! Google!

Let's get some data coming our way.

But you know, an interesting period was when there was an explosion of all these healers and these people that were into séances.

Mediums.

Yeah, that was a very big tradition for a while in the United States.

If I can add to that, Lincoln had séances in the White House. Oh man! It was so common.

Do you have a date for us?

For Houdini? Yeah. 1891 to 1926 was when he was active.

That's much later, actually, because I think it was post-Civil War where there was this boom of all, this spiritual crossing over to the other side and the beginning of all this research. Yes. I have a little story about Houdini that I thought was kind of cool. A friend of mine, who I basically grew up, he was a Greek-American guy and his father had classically a restaurant.

Yeah, yeah, wonderful.

Cheeseburger, cheeseburger, cheeseburger. I used to hang out there. In fact, I lived at his house. My family was so big that sometimes they didn't even know I was gone. I just had my own room at his house.

Oh, wonderful.

And we said, Harry Houdini, if you are here, give us a sign. So a planchette would go, E-W. No, try again. E-W. Try again.

No, no, no, no.

Yes, ladies and gentlemen.

That is so, so scary!

I love it, though.

I'm so scared right now.

Oh, I love that.

I remember it so well.

But here's where I'm getting at. I wonder if you had that fire that you felt. I feel like a peculiar insect here. If I go somewhere else, maybe it'll make more sense.

I did, and also, my father was from Wisconsin and he grew up in a country school where he skipped like 4 grades, but he had a good education. It was kind of depression time. He went to Harvard Medical School before he could shave. practically. Went to Mayo Clinic.

You inherited ambition. Yeah.

My town was lots of things. There were universities there. There was some wealth there. There was all kinds of things, but principally a lot of paper mills. So there was a big blue-collar factory worker community and they were basically Italian and Polish surnames, or Eastern European.

Oh, interesting.

Which took a lot to overcome, when I decided to become an actor and went to New York and was living like a pauper and living in a bad neighborhood, and I thought, no, this is where it's at. The salt of the earth. And not because my parents were horrible people. It was just this very American fear of sliding back into another economic bracket. They had pulled themselves up from their bootstraps, and that was a point of pride, and they wanted their children to even do better.

Wants to be in the carnival, basically. Yeah.

That was always a fantasy when I was a kid. Either the carnival or Merchant Marine.

or Army.

It sounds juvenile and it was because I was a kid. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that was it. I really had this strong feeling of. I wanted to go away to see what he could see.

Down the side. Yeah.

But of course, the working class, it's all story. So your parents have sacrificed so much. You said you're raised by your sisters. They're never home. So they're killing themselves.

And while I really adored my parents, they were great, but I saw that they lived their life a little bit in fear. And that's been a huge ambition to get away from that.

Yes, defining yourself in opposition to that in a way.

A little bit.

Now, my parents were cool. They were hippie-ish and a Wheeler dealer.

car salesman addict.

So mine weren't square.

Mine were kind of square. They were more Eisenhower Republicans. There was an interesting point where all my brothers and sisters went to the University of Wisconsin-Madison, which, during the 60s, was right up there with Berkeley and a few other places, for being a place of political activity. And as a teenager, I lived through these Thanksgivings where, you know, brother would come down with long hair and would talk about part of the people and all that. My parents would freak out.

Were they like, how did all our children, and then this little one is going to the carnival. Like, what have we done?

Yeah, I hadn't gone to the carnival yet.

They could feel it.

It was happening.

Well, look, they did it right, and now this movement arises that seems to threaten the whole order. It's all going to go away, this thing we dedicate ourselves to.

People always go to their parents when they analyze why they're fucked up. I think it's all about identity and social conditioning. That's the struggle to get clear of that. And I think somewhere my ambition to go elsewhere was to, and I've always had this, it's also why I like to work in other cultures and I like to mix it up with projects. You like to find out what the bottom line is.

Yes. It's all made up.

It's made up and it can limit you like crazy, because that's the source of all your fear and your anxiety, because it's not about you and you think it's about you, but it's not. You've got to find your own way.

Yeah. And look, I'm in therapy, so I do talk about my childhood, but also...

I've never been in therapy.

I want to also agree with you. I think there is a greater force, which is the ultimate parents, which is like, who are we as a species? How are we designed to live? What is the price one pays for being excommunicated? Well, it's life or death.

I also think, coupled with that, once I started to work, I always sought out these situations that were collaborative groups of people that were working together and make something. That's a different kind of freedom.

I've interrupted you a bunch and I want to apologize. I just want you to know my intention.

You're very excitable.

I just want to be very clear. It's not because I'm trying to finish your sentence as much as I'm trying to bond with you. So I just call myself a ninth interruption.

That's a good job. I'm proud of you for catching that.

I talk too slow.

No, you don't. I got very excited to mind. meld, with you. We go to New York, though, ultimately. Yeah.

Oh, it was drop dead, New York, and it was dangerous. There weren't enough cops and there were plenty of bad guys. And it was rough and stuff didn't work. But it was also exciting because you're young and you could deal with it.

You don't give a shit, then. You've not been comfortable yet.

In fact, given everything that we said before, I was kind of thought, well, this is the world. I've been living in Disneyland. Yes. You start to meet artists and you start to meet poets, and you start to meet people that have much different concerns that you had, because they don't have money and they didn't grow up with the same kind of pressures that you had. I mean, I grew up very middle class and very modestly.

I think there's more unity in it. So just my own story. Started out dead broke. Mom left dad, two kids, welfare apartments, the whole nine yards. But my mom did build a successful kind of business at some point in my life.

So you were fine.

And for me, I loved it. I never left. I didn't ever want to leave.

Talk about not needing anything.

But I got infected at some point, and that's, again, the earmark. thing I want to know about at the end is how you seem to have... Let's put it this way. You could have probably amassed a couple hundred million dollars with the notoriety you have and the offers, I'm sure, are out there for you. You could have, at many times, pursued different paths, and you seem to have not ever picked it.

Well, I don't know. They pay you for a reason. So I'm not always about money. It is possible to make money and still do good things. Don't get me wrong.

artistically.

Right. You say that, and that sounds good, and that sounds very brave of me and not being a money pig and all that because I don't think I am, but it happened by accident. I think, because the people that I've always been hanging out weren't necessarily wealthy people, but they were working artists and they were doing things that interested me. So the work will sustain you. Money will not.

Okay, we don't like parent stuff, but as you're talking about it, I'm thinking, well, one difference between you and I is I was growing up with nothing and the goal was to amass something. And you grew up with something and you were like, yeah, this ain't that great. So you kind of already maybe started at the finish line. Maybe that was helpful.

I think that's fair. Also, I used to always get annoyed when there would be an interviewer talking like this and we'd go back to when I was 10 years old to talk about my family. because so much has happened since that. It's like, get over it. And I guess I'm a little more tolerant of that now.

Did you have idols at that time and did you have fantasies of what you were trying to do?

I'm sure I did, but I remember when I first started hearing about Jerzy Gertowski, who was this Polish theater lab, do you know that? No. He was a guy that took basically a student group and he was quite radical and he limited the amount of audience that they could have. He developed these exercises. Basically, it was to bring the actors to a place where they'd have to surrender because they were so physical.

And you wanted that experience more than you wanted to be one of those people?

I even wanted to be one of those people, but it was very far from me because they were Polish and a different tradition. But in working with this company in New York, we toured a lot and I saw a lot of different theater companies and a lot of different theater traditions, and that turned me on. Sometimes I'd see performances and the performers were so electric that I would have an ambition to be like them.

Would you experience envy in those moments?

Of course, and I'd say how beautiful that is. They give me so much. I wish I could do that for somebody.

Right.

That's not an obsession, but when you say, oh, did you have an, I was ready to say, nah, you know, I was just chugging along trying to figure it out, which is sort of true. But then, when I think about it, the people that really turned me on were usually artists, or these really extreme performers that were electric but had no celebrity necessarily and had a very modest lifestyle. So that was sexy to me.

That's the group you were trying to be in, which makes sense that the money doesn't become the thing to get. It's that. It's artistic integrity and the approval of artists.

Yeah, or just learning to do what you do so well that you didn't need anything else. The work would sustain you. I still on some level believe that. And that's not just for actors. You look at some person that has a little cobbler shop, and they do fantastic work.

Oh, I think these genius welders in the automotive world, they think of a thing and they turn it into steel and they're in there for three days. Wow.

That's it. It has to do with the quality of being there. And as long as you can sustain that, still, that is my ambition.

From what I'm gleaning from you, it seems to me you're not terribly preoccupied with the grand story you're telling of your life. Is that fair?

I think so, because I'm happiest when I melt into the action, in the same way that I'm happiest when I feel like I'm functioning in a group of people making something bigger than me. It's very important to get away from yourself. And that doesn't mean it's not personal. In fact, it becomes more personal. And it maybe sounds precious.

Yeah. Are you into mushrooms at all?

No.

Okay. If you take Michael Pollan and you read the book, and it's explained to you biochemically what happens that makes them magic, it's simply it interrupts a channel in your brain that communicates with the area you store your identity, this construction, right? So a lot of end-of-life doctors recommend taking it as you're nearing the end of your life, because it liberates you and frees you from this construct of your identity, and it actually lets you experience the stuff. that is primal. As you say, everything we would use to construct our identity, we're going to be using all modern things that have only existed for 80 years, right?

In theory. And it can be. And the only reason I'm quick to say no about the Mushrooms is I've got a kind of discipline where it's got to come from within, because I get up in the morning.

How does yoga play into all this?

That's part of it.

So what else is on that agenda?

Pretty much that.

Yoga.

Yeah, and certain practices, yes.

But you don't want to talk about it.

Exactly. Okay, wonderful. You know, it's like talking about religion. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's not, but I don't like it only because it's like I have something that you don't have, you know, I am.

or self-actualized.

Yeah, you know, I mean, everybody's trying, and I'm one of those guys that's trying, but I don't want to talk about it.

Yeah, that's fair.

Hopefully, with time, I'll get articulate in what I do, that that can be an expression of those things.

I'm not going to ask you to talk about it, but I'm curious, if the motivation not to is that it would feel disrespectful to what it's giving you to go talk about it.

No, it's just, listen, if my world is different, nobody's, you know, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's good. That's a fair answer. Nobody's around. And without any confession, for example, in America, we're obsessed with drugs.

But you keep an eye on it.

Yeah.

Well, I'm sober, so I can kind of remember.

I know. That's part of the research,

I'm sure that pops up.

on this movie.

Big time. Polly goes, Kristen Bell, sober.

And don't get me wrong. I mean, you know.

You've had some fun.

Yeah. And I've always been interested in people like Timothy Leary and Hunter S. Thompson.

Adventurers?

Yeah.

When you've played a character where that's an element of their existence and experience, do you allow yourself to live as they do a little bit?

No. For example, I did this film that Patricia Arquette directed called Gonzo Girl. And I play a Hunter S. Thompson-esque figure. And I felt no desire to get coked up and drink all the time.

Now, that one makes sense to me. But I guess for Platoon...

For Platoon? I can imagine. The joke is, there was one scene where we're smoking weed. Yeah. And we're down in this underground area where we're living.

captain weed, smoker of this group.

Yeah, we're all smoking. It's not authorized. It's not unauthorized. It's just something that happens. We're in the middle of the jungle.

I've watched it on set. I've been intrigued by it. But I also go like, you're being very optimistic about how quick you're gonna get a scene done. You're ignoring the fact that you would have to stay in that peak zone for maybe 9 hours.

Yeah, and how many times have you been in a scene where someone is supposed to be drunk, and they say, let me go. And they're terrible. Right,

because they're fucking tired by the time they're done.

They're tired, and they can't. Yeah, they're drunk. I'm not opposed to it. Yeah.

It's worked for a lot of people.

Yeah, and it's fine. I don't care. It depends on the situation. But I just say, generally, you have some technical responsibilities. sometimes.

You've expressed at least that you're the type of person that loves just being the instrument. to the director. You enter it literally going, I'm a piece of how they're gonna make this painting. You've said, I'm the paint.

I'm the color, I'm the canvas.

Which I like, but have you found yourself, we only happen to know about this because we interviewed a guy who does a show, they take movies and they do a whole episode on it, and we listened to the Platoon one, which is really fascinating. Paul Shear, this comedian, it's a great episode.

Breaks down the movie.

He's a comedian, but he's like a film guy.

Loves film, and he's brilliant, he's like a historian, and they're going through the AFI list, and then they watch it, and then they go do an episode about it, and then they might do some interviews and such. So they interviewed some people from the Platoon movie.

They didn't interview me.

Unfortunately, and sadly.

That's because rumor is. you don't do podcasts very often.

At least from what we listened to, there seemed to be a lot of psychodynamics being played with in the environment, cool things being used, and I guess I'm wondering, knowing what I know about you, when you're there, can you just drop into that and go with it, or is there a voice in your head going like, I feel like I'm getting manipulated, or you like going all the way, and have you ever felt like? this has gotten too crazy?

No, I think you've got to go with it. That's what you signed up for, and there's nothing worse than someone that drags their feet, because it's usually selfish. You've got to throw your lot in, but of course, if someone misbehaves or someone is abusive and it's too much for you, then you speak up. I've been in that situation. The joke is oftentimes when directors are rough or abusive, the actors like it because they get a result.

Well, right.

You're protecting your place. You're not united anymore. You're separating yourself out, but you've got to be careful. If there's abusive stuff going on, then you've got to speak up.

You landed, and ended up being the very last flight into the Philippines, and the revolution started the next morning.

Crazy.

Talk about out searching for adventure.

Oh, God, and there weren't that many people there, because I went early, because I wanted to hang out and have a little adventure before the adventure. Because I was flying from New York, it was a long flight, and I took a nap after, and I opened my curtains. I was in a high-rise hotel, and I looked out, and there were tanks on the street. Oh, my God. And then I turned on the TV and saw that the rebels had one station and the government had another, and it was a revolution happening.

Well, that's a fun question, isn't it? Do you find that, like, if someone starts filming me with an iPhone, I'm insanely self-conscious, and I think that's so bizarre that I'm an actor.

You don't have things to do. You don't have a thing to concentrate on, so they're filming you as Dax, without that filter or without that purpose.

Or an agenda or a game plan.

And you attach to that. I'm speaking for you. You know what I mean? The same thing happens with me. You hear all the time, oh, actors are shy people.

Yeah, and there's no hierarchy. It's fun to watch both. There are people that are in one group that I adore, and there's people that are in another that I adore.

Yes, yes.

This isn't a question, this is just an observation. So you were in Catherine Bigelow's first movie.

I was. Her first feature, she had made shorts and things before. that. You're like,

give you a heart attack, gorgeous. I was watching it and I was like.

I look like a little kid.

Oh, no, I mean you are kind of earth shatteringly gorgeous in this. I just was watching this clip, I was like,

holy fuck. I mean you were.

smoke show.

Oh my god. I didn't know. You turned into.

the most interesting face of all time, but back then you're just straight up walking to a bar, people are going to say hi to you. Oh.

Yeah.

I don't remember it that way. You do actually. I really don't. Wait,

I want to look up a picture.

You have to. The Loveless.

There's a scene of them driving in a car. I look like a little baby. It's like the same thing in To Live and Die in L.A. In those days I would go out more and I'd go to a club and this massive, muscular, tall, bouncer. Yeah.

Yeah, this is crazy.