Jim Downey

All right, we got this. I know, because I know I use my name constantly.

Hi, my name is Jim Downey.

And I feel entirely unapologetic about being Conan O'Brien's friend.

Fall is here, Hear the yell, back to school, ring the bell, brand new shoes.

Walking blues, climb the fence, books and pens. I can tell that we are going to be friends.

I can tell that we are going to be friends. Hello and welcome to Conan. O'Brien needs a.

I did with a lot of respect, H.R. told me to do that. And Matt Gorley, how are you?

That seems a little indifferent, dismissive, is what I was going for. Well done, mission accomplished. How are you guys?

You know, I'm okay. Yeah, good, that's all I need to know. I didn't even answer.

So let's get going. I just plow right ahead, all right, do you even listen to us when you ask? No?

Oh, okay, no, I just plow right ahead, all right. okay, I can barely see you guys.

You're just blobs. When I really care about someone, they come into sharp focus. Oh man, yeah, yeah.

And then when not, it's just like, sort of like gray clouds, you can't see this at all. Which one are you? No, not a thing.

Okay, I'm just assuming you're waving at me. Yeah, yeah, God forbid, you were giving me the two middle fingers. But I'm going to know that that couldn't happen.

Yeah, as your employer, I'm just curious, have either of you been to the dermatologist recently? Yeah.

Good, I have. I'm doing a public service announcement very quickly. Sono you went just like two weeks ago.

Oh, I didn't even know that I'm throwing this out there and everything good, everything's good.

I have a clogged oil duct on my eye. I don't know if you guys have noticed. There's like, a little, Oh, you know, it's so funny, plump thing.

Behind your back, we've been calling you old oily eye. Yeah, seriously, yeah. We were like, Where's old oily eye?

And then everyone knows what we're talking about. What do you mean? A clog? There's like, a little do you see that there is?

I see it. Yeah, it looks like a pimple, but it's just it's been there for over a month. Yeah, it's just a duct that's filled with oil.

Yeah, why did they say? why it's filling with oil? I don't know. No, they don't.

I think I'm just like that I have to put a warm compress on my eye, so I put a tea bag on there every morning. Can't they drain it? Somehow? I don't think it works that way, it'll just refill with more oil.

They said I could take an antibiotic, but I don't do antibiotics. No, why would you? By the way, my dad is a microbiologist. his whole life has been devoted to antibiotics and their use.

There you go, but antibiotic resistant, yes, he would say, don't overuse them. I'm not sure he'd agree with anything you're saying.

He would agree with me. I talked to him, Oh good, how is he? I haven't spoken to him in years.

We had a falling out. He called me to apologize about you.

Matt, how are you? I'm good, I go every six months, me too. I have more moles than a three acre farm.

You know what I mean, You mean the farm that has a lot of moles digging underneath, That's what I mean, so not the other mole.

I showed you my back here once in studio. Yeah, it was hideous, it was a constellation. Every time I go in, they take something.

CONAN I know you go, I go every six months. But the assistant who took over for you? Because you're so busy writing books where you sell me out and babbling away on the podcast, you wrote The foreword, and this is your podcast, that's true.

Okay, wow. He took me down immediately, but he took over and he let it go to like, nine months without having David, and I said, David, I could die. I've got to go in twice a year because I'm just, you know, I was genetically engineered to live in a bog in Northern Ireland.

And then I should. Now I'm living near the Mexican border and I'm not supposed to be here, and so I just went. And um, fascinating. It's always fascinating because I'm covered in freckles. And I would think every freckle would be a potential, you know, something that would need to be looked at and cut off. And this woman can just tell the difference instantly.

She's like, Nah, freckle, freckle, freckle. Hmm. This one looks suspicious. And I look at them and they just look like all the other freckles, so I don't know if she's just randomly.

I'm like, Well, he's here, it's an extra $45 if I think, so. Oh, that one looks like a troublemaker. She's selling them. How long does it take for her to do the full body scam?

Scan, cause that's what I'm worried about with my doctor. You called it scam. Was that a Freudian slip?

The old full body scam. I'm worried my doctor does it so quickly, he's got to be missing some things, yeah.

You get worried about that when they're real quick and breezy about it, I think, but they're so good. They've seen it all, they've seen it all, like Bogie and Bacall, so they know they know when they see it.

So anyway, she, she said, Well, I'm going to do this, do this. And then she saw something. She said. I'm going to have to cut this one out and give you a couple of stitches. I saw that on your neck.

You've got a missing neck, we're falling apart, so it's in the back of my neck and I've got these two stitches there. And then she put a big bandage on it and she said, just to keep it in case it seeps a little. This is, and I know this is why people tune into the podcast to hear about my seepage. But come on, come on.

What's it seeping? Uh, you know, oh, oily eye over here is going to ask me about. It's suddenly you're the head of the foreign seepage committee of the Senate. Uh, so I don't think you have. You don't have an oily leg to stand on anyway. She cut something off and then she put a big bandage on it and I was going right from there to a meeting.

And I thought, this looks like I've had a facelift. Do you know what I mean? Well, it just looks like, you know what I mean? People in our business, yeah.

I don't mean your business podcasting, not podcasting, but someone. But your face doesn't look like you had a face, No, I just thought, whenever someone in Hollywood has like a lot of bandages around their neck, people might immediately think, Oh, he got the old throat job. And it's just on one side, on the back of your neck, I know, but that's a very specific one sided face stretch.

Trust me, I can see who's had it out there. Emma Stone. She had worked on on one quarter of an inch of the back right side of her neck. Did you get a facelift?

No, I'm the only person who's encouraged by fans to get face work. They say, get something done. Fix that melon is what people shout to me on the street, Fix that melon.

Yeah, I think you look good. Thanks a lot pal. That's nice, yeah.

I mean, you still have a really good jawline. thank you, very much. thank you. I'd take that jawline. Well, I thought you were going to say, I do you.

That's what it sounded like, and you know what, that's a given, that's a given. Oh, okay.

And you know what, that shouldn't be something that's like, Oh, what, you should be. We're all what? Sexuality, as we know, is a spectrum. Oh, and we've reported this to H.R. you should know.

Conan and I are sex partners. Yeah, look, sexuality is just a swirling, twirling spectrum, and I'm all over it. Baby. We're sex friends. When I think about people who are real adventurous with sex, I think about Corley and Conan O'Brien.

Well, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, we're sexual pirates on the high seas. yeah, on the high seas of jizz.

They call me Indiana Bones. Oh God, yeah, exactly, yeah, you two just fuck.

All you do is, fuck well. I mean, there's some roaming. It's not just pure no. We get to it pretty much right away. For me, I'm kind of invested.

Well, I'm always in a hurry. I got things to do. Hey, Indiana bones, get over here. We got to get to work on this, get to work on this.

Yep, I know the sex lingo that everyone's using. Hey, we got to get to work on this. See, there's work to be done in this sexual region, yeah.

By sex do you guys mean? just like building a model airplane, do you think that's what sex is? Yeah, of the Wright Brothers first flyer launched at Kitty Hawk.

It did a whole diorama of Kitty Hawk. Yeah, isn't that what sex is? Yeah, you guys sex it real good. Oh boy, you should see these dioramas we built.

Yeah, so anyway, moving on, when you brought up dermatology today, did you just assume it would go to sexual piracy? Did you ever think you would say high seas of jizz? yeah?

I didn't what you said, I didn't think I would say that. Okay, but let's admit it.

I got the riz. Isn't that the new word? There's a new word now? Is it the new word riz?

Would you say I've got the riz? You've got some riz? No, yeah, you've got kajizma.

I tried to get us off of that. MATT Oh, well. I worked hard to steer the boat away from those you got us there though, and then my job was to get us out.

And then this boob over here brought us right back in again. So Riz, I'm shocked, you know this, this is a word that's out there.

And they talk about different young people in Hollywood, or influencers who've got riz. Okay, and it's short for charisma. Yeah, and wouldn't you say, Sona, that I have some riz?

I would actually say, you have Riz, yeah, you're Riz'd up. Yeah, yeah.

You're really Riz'd up. What if I opened a hotel called the RiZ and I greeted people in the lobby? No, people with RIZ don't do that.

You're right, that's desperate. What about the RIZ? Carlton? Yeah, you just punned it.

Cool people don't do puns. No, that's actually wrong. Oh, puns are back.

No, they're not. No, no, puns are the worst.

No puns are back, Lowest form of hell, no puns are back.

Lowest form of hell is a pun. Yeah, Hitler in hell right now is like, I'm glad I never made the pun good. He's like looking down a couple of levels.

At least I never did that. He's being molested with a flaming pitchfork 24 seven, and still he's like, At least I didn't make a pun. My guest today is undoubtedly one of the greatest comedy writers of all time. He worked at Saturday Night Live for over 30 years, making him the longest tenured writer in that show's history.

He also, on a personal note, championed me very early in my career. I owe him everything. He's a genius. I'm delighted that he's with us today.

Jim Downey Welcome.

And and yet they're, they seem exempt from criticism, you know? Jeffrey Epstein? Wait a minute.

No, let me finish, I see it. No one, no one, you know, criticizes him and yet.

Oh, wait a minute. I have to apologize for the fact that I know Conan O'Brien. Wait a minute, wait a minute.

Is a double standard. Jim, hold on, hold on, hold on.

Yes.

Yes, for you to say.

The island, Yes, he had an island.

He's dead, he's dead.

Now I admit I've not, probably since the pandemic.

Jelaine's in prison. Yes, stop calling her.

Whatever your, it doesn't matter what you do in your private. I don't do anything in my private life. OK, but anyway, I'm your friend, all right, well.

This may shock you, who may say, I don't know of this. Jim Downey because we're listened to by billions of people around the world, a lot of people in Asia Pacific Rim countries, and they may not be familiar with Jim Downey. And I want to explain to them right now that you are considered the greatest comedy writer, possibly of the mid to late 20th century, petering out very rapidly in the early 2000s. Yeah, when you just hit a wall, you launched so many careers.

You are intimidatingly funny, and you are referred to by many comedians as the great comedy writer, the great comedy writer that we all revere. And you're just going to have to accept that right now. What do you think of?

I just felt like I would you think, who do you think was better than you? Well, I mean, there's. I mean, Robert Smigel is a fucking brilliant guy.

And Robert and I are good friends, but I tell him this almost every day. He's a piece of shit. He couldn't write his way out of a wet paper bag. Jack handy.

I didn't even know he was a comedy writer, you know? I thought he had an ice cream concern. You've turned me around on, Jack.

I mean, some weeks it was, it was all. It was all I could do to get you to show up to work. I'm sorry, I know it's like Conan.

It's Wednesday, the others have been here since Monday. I'm tired, I did a show, everyone did a show last week.

You were very young when you were hired, you were right out of college. Yeah, I'm a little 22 22, and your first day of work was also Bill Murray's first day of work. Is that right?

Right, I would love to to, to get to, you know, reconfigure those early years. I mean, you're there, Jumbo Lucy's on the cast.

It was definitely like a comedy thing, we were having fun with it and the audience loved it because we had our house band. As I know, you know, incredible, some of the most incredible. Like you had to know a fair bit about music to write. But it would be like, Wait a minute. The Howard Johnson is a tuba player, the Lou Marini, the Al Rubin, the, you know, yeah, the David Sanborn.

That was our fucking house band.

And I'm looking at these photos thinking, Wow, that was like a thousand years ago, they looked like civil war photos. Yeah, and this is in 1988. And I had a very clear memory of, well, I wish I had been around for that, because this thing is probably at the end.

I had a very clear I'm not being a jackass or being a wise guy. I just thought, well, this probably has a few more years and I'm lucky to be a small part of it. But it's just it's. It's amazing that you were there at the beginning and the show now is about to celebrate.

Yeah, and I was one of the producers, I'm going, Lauren. The show came on the air in 1975. Shouldn't this be next year, the 50th anniversary? I mean, I think, you know, because if you count from this is the 15th, you know?

Yeah, and yeah.

I remembered it being, and again, I thought, Wow, I'm here for the 15th anniversary of Saturday Night Live. It'll never make 20, I'll be long gone by then, probably dead.

My lifestyle at the time, but it was just incredible to me. And you wrote so many classic sketches. What are a few of your favorites from that era? Say, 76 to 80, a couple that just resonated with people, but they also.

And they're Spanish titles, I don't know, I know I love the Spanish language, it's actually a majestic sounding language.

Gorgeous musical, I know it's. It's much more, more. It's a much grander language in English. But there's something about, like American 50s stuff. So like there was a show that maybe you've heard about it.

I'm sure none of no one in this room is old enough to have actually seen it. I'm barely old enough. But Sea Hunt starring Lloyd Bridges, who was the father of Jeff Bridges. And it was, it was about a guy who was a scuba diver and the different things. This is the 1950s.

And and the Spanish title was Investigador Submarino.

And the and then there was the fugitive, there was the fugitive with David Janssen and my friend Go el fugitivo con David Janssen, and and so.

And that started this thing, where we started getting into macho, so the idea was it was a game show. The the the the questions you won or lost by by guessing correctly, who was more macho of two different celebrities? Yeah.

And, and, and the whole point was just to do a sketch entirely in Spanish. Yes, so that the Billy Bill Murray played the host, and Gilda was one of the contestants, and Ricky Nelson was the was the host. And but my favorite part of that piece, the part, you know, it was the part of the show, where now let's meet the contestants, you know? So we've done a round of like.

It was like, it was like.

And it's like, Ricky Nelson, you know, and Fernando Lamas, Oh, Ricardo Montalban es un poquito mas macho. So that it was like, now let's meet the contestants. So he goes up. And this is the thing that made me laugh, is Gilda?

And it's like, And she, and she's fucking so brilliant, she's like that giggly, kind of excited. He's calming her down. In Spanish, you know, and, and, and he goes, You know, and I forget the Spanish of it. But he says, You know, what do you do? I'm a I'm a housewife, and he goes gay profession.

As to esposo, you know what is your husband? do me? esposo? Exterminator? you know, an exterminator? Oh verdad? Exterminador es profesion muy macho, and she goes, It's like, que tipo insectos extermina?

What kind of insects does he exterminate? Oh, cucarachas, mosquitos, todos los insectos.

And you were the voice of the dubbing, yeah.

And it was just the hilariously bad dubbing, it was Dana played like the evil king Dana Carvey. Nora Dunn was the beautiful girl. Who is Hercules, you know, love interest, and then it's Billy as Hercules, and then the sound booth was me, Tom Davis and Jan Hooks.

Yeah, and and I'm doing Billy's voice, and Davis is doing The Evil King, he's Dave Davis part, and and then, and Jan was doing Nora's voice.

And so we were doing it live and they were like, I don't know, flapping their lips. Yeah, the sort of actors are just moving their mouths. Yeah, yeah, but but sort of trying to, you know, it had to sort of look like they wanted to be 60 percent on it, you know?

But it was just the whole premise was that Hercules was without a shape, so I don't remember too many of the details, but it was like it was this is Tom doing. The evil King is going. I will make you this offer, you know, if, if you could, if you could pass a test of strength.

And it's like, it's so and so, Hercules. What kind of test did you? did you propose? What kind of test do you propose? It's like, Do you see that Boulder? No, it is that giant Boulder. No one has ever lifted it.

If you can lift that boulder, I will spare the girl's life, and then and then I go, and then I go. that Boulder is too large, I can lift a smaller one.

It was just like goofy stuff, like it's Hercules. discussing is like, Oh my God, the mighty Hercules. I don't mean to be cruel, but you have really let yourself go. And it's like, I learned, to my sorrow, laities, that if you don't keep up your exercise regimen, the muscle turns to fat.

Now I later, I later. I basically was doing Lee van Cleef, Yeah, you know, but basically I later used Mike Myers asked me to do that voice for Wayne's world.

So I was the voice of her father, yeah, of the girl's father, who was played by the actor James Hong, anyway.

So so the the now we're, we're encroaching on your Arizona now. When you were doing the voice, I was like, that sounds like the part in Wayne's world where he's like, Yeah, yeah, yeah.

There was a piece that you did that I think of as a quintessential Jim Downey piece in this piece, and this is when I was there. So this is in the late 80s, early 90s, but you did a piece, a commercial parody. It was for a bank that would just make change.

Oh yeah, change bank. And it occurred to me there was something that just delighted me so much. And it's very popular online and you can, you can, you should go and check it out because you're you star in the piece, because no one could do it as well as you.

And you are the spokesperson for Change Bank, it is you over explaining, yeah, what we do at Change Bank? If you know. If you give us a five, we'll give you four ones and four quarters we'll also give you and break it down into all the denominations.

And I remember talking to Jack Handy about this, and he was like, nobody loves to. No one loves the comedy of over explaining more than Jim Downey, telling you much more than you need to know. And it's a very specific way, and there's a music to it, you have a musical ear for that kind of comedy.

But it is something.

We got it, we got it. So, and I've done a number of pieces where that is like a thread. And I was, I remember, I remember one that I'm even sure if it got on. But it was when the Padres. I think it was like I was a big Cubs fan. When the when the Padres eliminated the Cubs in 1984, it was 1984..

I don't know, I don't care anyway, OK, but anyway, the Padres and the Padres are owned by Joan Kroc, the widow of Ray Kroc, who started McDonald's. It was Joan Kroc.

And the joke was that she didn't know anything about baseball, so she asked to address the team for the game. And it's like, and, and, and to the players. I can't stress this enough. When you're at bat, hit a home run, hit a home run, and I'll tell you why.

I'll tell you why I say that, I'll tell you why. Because when you, when you hit a home run, you get to run around all of the bases, all of them, you get to run. You don't know.

You don't have to stop at all and and so on. And the players are like, Mrs. Kroc, I mean, we like to get started here, you know? And then so change back was just.

Yes, it was, and I wrote that for Kevin Nealon. Yeah, and and I, and I'm afraid like it was a case of like, I mean, you know me, I'm not. I'm not like a like, a bully kind of director guy. But I was giving Kevin a lot of notes, and Kevin is like, you know, he was the most beloved.

Yeah, it remains. I just saw him yesterday. Everyone, you know, loved the guy and and I even. And I got even on Kevin's nerves a little bit in none. It wasn't like a blow me because Jim, maybe, maybe, why don't you do it?

I mean, you, I mean, I'll be in it, you know? And and I actually. And that was one of the very few times where I I went like, you know, actually, I mean, I actually would be good for that. Just because you need it doesn't hurt to be played by a person with no camera presence, you look like someone working at a bank. Yeah, yeah, I just. And I had on the and it was like the really talking a little too fast and too excited about something.

And and so that was. I have this theory that virtually anyone can act in the right part. Yes, and and there's a genius in in recognizing what someone would do really well and putting them in that right position. And a great, you know, there's a continuum. That, and say it, you know, Daniel Day Lewis say, You know, we can do pretty much anything, you know, and then I'm down more the other end of that.

But here and there, there are things that I can do where where I use my lack of camera.

Some might even give it to the child. It's a movie and I remember going and seeing that movie and absolutely loving it. It's so in my wheelhouse. And you have these scenes with Daniel Day Lewis.

And I completely believe that your job was selling land in California in 1903.

And it was a real thing because I was like, that's Jim Downey, that's my friend, he, he gave me my start. Oh my God, I lost myself in the scene.

I forgot it was you, it was great. Well, I'm, I had known Paul.

Ernie Anderson, used to be the back in the 80s, was the voice of ABC. If you remember those as a The Love Boat, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Vegas, it's the love.

And so he brings Paul as a 10 year old kid. And because he was my son, this is my son, and I remember meeting him, and then I saw him again. That was 1983..

I saw him again. Well, no, he wouldn't have been 10 or whatever, but 83 to 98 15. Yeah, no, it was something like that, and he might have been younger than.

That is true.

But can I say something? Because I need to get you to? I got to corral you a little bit? Can I do it?

He decides I have some kind of look that he simply has to have in his movie. So years later, he's casting. There will be blood, and he basically is holding up the entire production. Trying to find me. And it was had been a year, a kind of a drinky year for me, and I kind of disappeared.

Sure, and he's tracked me down and that's what sort of pulled me out of my situation. And I flew me out to El Paso, and then I drive seven hours to Marfa, Texas.

And that night was in a fitting room with Daniel Day-Lewis. Can I just say that's the craziest intervention I've?

Put him with Daniel Day-Lewis, and it's scenes with Daniel Day-Lewis, the greatest living actor. Yes, that'll snap out of it. And I remembered saying to him, like.

And I go, OK, I mean, well, I'm going to see how good he is. The only time I ever heard him use his actual speaking voice, which is incredibly soft and gentle, it's like he should. It's so, it's very whispery, and it's very, it's very delicate.

I can't do his accent as well, but it's incredibly cultured and upper class. I think, was when he introduced himself the first time we met. Which is literally in the dressing room and he's pulling on his his, you know, his pants and stuff, and I'm getting fitted.

And then when he introduced me to his wife a couple of weeks later, when she visited the set. And all of the time, she stayed resolutely in character. Wow, which was like he was doing John Houston. Yeah, yeah.

You know, and so I remember we had to every morning that it was. It was shot on the set where they filmed Giant outside of Marfa, Texas, a ranch that had been. It's been like a 50 year drought there. And so they had all these rules. Like you couldn't drive more than like, 10 miles an hour, and that that's an excruciatingly slow pace to be in a car.

And you had to. It took like 40 minutes to drive to the set from our home base. And so every morning I would be driving with Andy Lewis. And he's in character, talking about what he did over the weekend. So it's just like, I got to tell you, we went to the Riata.

That was the best damn hamburger I've ever had.

And he arranged, he arranged. The World Cup happened that summer, and so he arranged to have the World Cup finals. Pumped into the right to the little theater, my clear memory of that movie.

And it's of course, Plainview is just this maniac. And and I said, What are you talking? He beats a guy to death at the end with. I said, That's how am I like that? and he went, No, no, no, no, not that specifically.

Just the like. You're the kind of guy that would drag yourself through the desert with a broken leg, you know what? I mean? It was something about the will you have this, like crazy Iron will.

The original script ended with me, me, I'm working with him, supposedly he's brought me along when he moved to L..A. Yeah, and I come upon the crumpled body of Paul Dano.

Not the waiter. Yeah, not the butler. Yeah, I'm the butler.

And I'm not a butler. I come in and I I carry Daniel, who is like, six, seven or something. Yeah, you know, big guy, and I carry him out.

And I, you know, I feel OK. I think I can handle if he helps a little bit, right? The movie ended on my reaction to the horror. Yeah.

That was supposed to be the shooting draft that we started to go. Are you fucking kidding me? Yeah, I mean, fantastic, that's great.

And so I, and then they decided, because I was they. At one point, Paul said, You know what, we're not going to, we're not going to need you for the L..A. Shoot in the Doheny mansion, which is where they shot it. And I said, I, I wasn't hurt because I thought I always thought it was a lunatic idea to fucking end the movie on me.

Right, and he said. But he said, like, he's so abusive to you in the early earlier in the movie that it just didn't track that. He would forgive you and then bring you along. Yes, yes, later. Career.

Yeah, one other thing I'll say about that is Robert Smigel actually went knocked on my apartment door. You know, Bang, bang, because he knows Paul Thomas Anderson. Yeah, he knows him from Punch drunk glove. Yeah, he says, Jimmy, Paul's been trying to get ahold of you only for what? Paul Thomas?

And what? And he goes, Yeah, he really wants to do this movie. And they're holding up the casting in the studio. He's really angry because he won't cast the part. And they want to get started. And and I go, what?

What is this? It's a joke and he goes, You got it, you should do it, you should do it.

It's Daniel A. Lewis. And so I said, OK, so. And then later that afternoon I have to get an early fitting at a studio in New York. And then I flew, like the next day Saturday to El Paso, but that night I get fitted.

And on Monday at 6 a.

M.

We did our first scene on camera. My proudest boast is that I couldn't have ruined the movie because you'll notice he got the Oscar.

You identified Norm as a brilliant guy very quickly, you wanted him to do update, and then you and Norm really crafted that update. Which has become, I think, the iconic performance, recognized today as the iconic performance on update of all time. There's a quote here I just want to read back to you.

What I did like about the way we approached update was that it was akin to the punk movement, what the punk movement was for. Music just stripped down. We do what we wanted. There was nothing there that was considered to be a form of cheating. We weren't cuddly.

We weren't adorable, we weren't warm. We weren't going to do easy political jokes. That played for Claptor and let the audience know we were all on the same side. We were going to be mean and to an extent, anarchists. And I think that's a perfect distillation of of what I don't.

He could land things, he was clipped and precise, you know? His older brother, Neil, is a CBC newscaster. Yeah, and so Norm had the perfect, what we call the perfect straight line going for in terms of his look.

And he just had a great sensibility also, he hated, he hated easy laughs and what. My colleague Seth Meyers coined the term claptor, I think he did I always give him credit for him. Or Tina Fey?

I can't remember I'd hear different people or Oppenheimer.

One of them, Claptor, is a perfect thing for that kind of like, lazy sucking up to the audience. Trump sucks, yeah, and we just we might even agree with that politically.

But, you know, come on, they deserve more than than that kind of shit, so just challenge them with stuff, even if it's going to maybe make them uncomfortable. Like, Oh, I don't like laughing at that, but that's fucking funny, so I'm going to have to laugh, you know? And, of course, the O..J.

Jokes Well, here's the thing. We're a huge part of that. So the O..J.

Sitting next to him and Cochran standing there, and he's holding the knit cap, the knit cap that was found at the scene. And Norm, in his Norm-esque way, says, Well, you know, the defense had a bit of a had a bit of a bad day today at the defense trial. When Johnny Cochran testified and held up the knit cap that was found at the scene of the murder, he was going on about the knit cap. When suddenly he was interrupted by O..J. who said, Hey, easy with that, that's my lucky stabbing cap.

Yeah, and I remembered that being an ice bullet that went through my heart. It was so, that's my lucky stabbing hat, that's my lucky stabbing hat.

And and we, and the thing is, and you know this too. He would say something like that. And I don't know where my camera is, it's there. I guess that's my lucky stabbing hat.

And he would hold in this way that nobody does hold and hold and hold. And he would do it for a joke that killed, as that one did. But he'd also do it for a joke that he liked, or that you liked, or that you guys liked. Yeah, and if I got nothing, it was like it wasn't.

Some people said.

And a simple test of any of his blood found at the.

And then there was one, like there was a nation, there was, there was one.

J. Simpson had been criticized because the first Mother's day after the murders. He played golf in Scotland. Yeah, and it's like, this weekend. O..J. Simpson, playing golf in Scotland was heavily criticized. And not spending the first Mother's Day since Nicole Brown Simpson's murder with his children.

And angry, Simpson responded Idiots. I didn't spend Mother's Day with my kids because I killed their mother.

There was, there were two more I wanted to bring up because I was very norm. And I would would spend like insane amounts of time obsessing over the precise wording yeah, joke, yeah.

And I remember there was one that I thought actually benefited from our kind of neurotic attention to tail. But it started off as a joke about. Penthouse magazine had had had this cover story, which even if you didn't read Penthouse, you would see the cover on newsstands. And it was, you know, this week. SHOCKing Photos Alien Autopsy This is Penthouse magazine, so so they claim to be actual photos of an alien autopsy.

So the joke, the joke we started out with, which I think would have been good enough, was. This week, Penthouse magazine released its much awaited photos of an alien autopsy. According to those who've seen the issue, the photos were sharp, clear and easy to masturbate to.

So so anyway, then I thought, like, you know what, that there's that can be better, there's a better rhythm to that. So I so, I suggest, I first suggested that it should be, and we're turning and quote easy to masturbate to, because I just liked it for rhythm. And then I came up with one of my greatest contributions of the season, which was, I added the word surprisingly so that the joke became.

The joke became kind of different, so it was like. According to those who've seen the advanced copies, the photos are sharp, clear, and, quote, surprisingly easy to masturbate to. You got this image of a guy going, you know, I? At first I didn't think this would work, but goddammit, goddammit, this is fucking hot.

And but you've always thought that was a kind of a proud moment for you? Because a lot of people reached out when that happened. And.

It's like, you know, the a.

E. Hausman Poem to an athlete Dying Young Before Fame Outran the man, you know, kind of thing. And if that's maybe I have that backwards too, but anyway, we were yanked off and maybe it's. That's better than risking that where you peak and then it's downhill and stick around.

Yeah, and we didn't get that, we weren't put in that position of having to, you know, to make that decision. It was made for us. But I know that norm, that story about that.

I know, you know this story, but I think people who are fans of Norm deserve to know this about him. The network went to Norm and said, We want to get rid of Jim Downey and we just want you to know you're cool with that, right? He said. No, no, you can't fire him.

If you fire him, I quit and they go, that's crazy. I mean, you know, he's, he's not helping you, you know, the segment's too mean or whatever. And and he said, Well, no, I'm, I'm not doing it without him.

And he never told me that, and I didn't hear that for years. I heard it from some network executives and I, and part of everything else. If that had been me, that would have been, you bet, Norm would have heard, you would have.

He came from a different century. Oh yeah, I mean, I remembered when he, when he died, you called me and you said you were mad at me. Initially, you said I can't believe you didn't tell me Conan, and I said I didn't know.

None of us, none of us knew, Laurie Jo knew, and his.

And I know why he didn't. I mean, I've been told that it made perfect sense, so I believe it. He just didn't want it to ever be about anything but being funny. He didn't want to be brave or fighting a good fight, or, you know, he didn't want to do heartwarming stuff.

I was a little hurt that he didn't tell me, but I mean, I talked to him. I guess I know you may have talked to more recently than I'd had, but I'd talked to him. Certainly. The summer of twenty twenty, we were trying.

We were trying to get him on my last.

It was a joke where we took the world's most innocuous kind of C-section news story, and it was, it was. We would clip a real news story and show it on the monitor so that the audience knew this is a real thing. We make it up.

And we did that for most of our, our things. So the story was like, you know, Denver City Council approves traffic light for Martin Avenue. And so it's we go, it goes enormous. Like this week, the Denver City Council, finally, on its third attempt, voted funds for a new traffic light on Martin Avenue.

Then he turns dramatically to another camera and goes. Maybe they would have voted the funding earlier if instead of a traffic light, it was for rich white men. And then and then we break up. A lower third, applaud now.

But that's the kind of stuff that there's not really a great place to laugh in. That joke, right? That's the thing that, like norm, we would, we would do our our run through. Like, we would work on the jokes a bit during the week, but mainly Friday night, and we would. That's when, especially, I would do a lot of rewriting and refining.

And then I'd run through stuff with Norm, and then Saturday we do a run through. And they were always screaming. We're always kind of late, getting in the studio, really late, because they were come on, guys, we're losing time. So we'd come down to a run through and we'd make a few kind of changes. Maybe think of some things for Norm to add. Then we'd have a dress.

And then my attitude with Lorne Michaels, the producer, the big guy, was always like, tell us how long you want the segment to be. We're like, because we're most easily Bologna sliced segment. And my attitude, and Norm kind of agreed. it's like Norm wanted a certain. You didn't want to feel that like we had to have it.

We were entitled a certain amount of the show, but I always argued, like anything, if we're cutting lean, we're in good shape. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I mean, sure, we'll always cut the fat that you everyone should do that. But if we're also have to give up something we don't want to give up, it's probably a good indication. No, it's a lot of our stuff can be done next week.

You know, we used to we would do six minute updates. we I think we had a five minute. They do like 12 minute updates now, you know, and they did them before us. And Norm, I will say this Norm was not crazy about features, he wasn't crazy about having other people on the segment. You know, always any incentives?

I had to, like, get him to be more involved with. Yes, yeah, but Seth Meyers was the best ever and interacting with, I mean, he was great at that.

I wish Norm had been a little more playful, like a good straight man, but yeah, but what I always took?

No, you're, but you're also in my head for another reason. No, you're in my head because there's an ethic that I got from you and I also got from Robert Smigel. And and I try to pick from the best, which is if I can lose it. Yes, trim the fat, but also sometimes cut into the muscle. Norm. Would totally throw out something if.

This is guaranteed to die, I promise you will get, you know, death camp silence, but it's fucking brilliant. Norm would unhesitatingly go for the silence and I, but I would go, Yeah, I would too, but I'm not the guy out there.

Yeah, he is, and I always fucking love that about him. He would never reject something because it's funny. But they're not going to get there, you know? And I had fights with, even with people that you and I both respect, who just, Oh man, it killed, it killed.

Yeah, but come on, man, right? And a lot of that is is these days, especially anything political. It's just so the temptation because this is coming up with stuff is hard.

You know, you have to fill time, it doesn't.

Don't kid yourself he was.

Ask your husband, he's a funny guy. Oh my god. He grew up in the Soviet Union, he was 11..

Yeah, oh, but he's highly active in the Soviet Union. I'll ask him about Stalin, he was on the politburo. Was he a funny guy?

Yeah, Lorne Michaels, this is a quote from Lorne Michaels. He called you, Jim Downey, the best political humorist alive. Well, that was before the birth, three years ago, of a hilarious child.

Uncle V. Johnson.

Well, but I've seen the kid stuff.

Yeah, you're so principled, and you're right now so much political comedy now, which is wailing one way or the other. And I find that it's just a I don't know. It doesn't feel to me like a satisfying time to be a comedy writer. If you're trying to do politics, because there's, there's, so.

You know, I always like John Mulaney's thing about there's a horse loose in the hospital, I mean.

And what I loved about it was it captured the absurdity of it all. But it did it in this way that there was no bile. It was. And and it's very hard. You need to sometimes. It was purely comedic, which I loved. So let's just end this by saying that John Mulaney is better than anyone we know.

Is that the point you were trying to make?

I didn't hang out, I didn't do the late night things. I wrote from home, like, you know, I live in upstate New York, near Cooperstown, and so I. I would be at home Sunday, Monday, Tuesday. And then I'd write my piece. And I dictate it. I always dictate my pieces. Because they're, you know, they have to be spoken and they have to be speakable, and they have to be.

They're going to be heard and not read, and so you need to in. When I dictate them, I'm changing them, I go, wait a minute, hang on, I'm changing, you know? And anyway, then they have it a read through, and then I'm told if it's in or not, if it's in, I drive down to New York anyway. So I was in the studio on Saturday and I don't even sure I'd met Mullane, he was like the second show.

And I'm walking through the studio and I'm and they're rehearsing. One of his piece he had a piece on, I think, was like his his second show, and he had this, this, this hilarious piece on. And it's a great sort of. The host was Tim McGraw, who is a really good actor, very funny guy.

And he, it was like a country kind of a show where he does like practical jokes. But he's such a soft hearted, sweet guy he keeps like, apologizing for. It's hard to explain. Yeah, yeah, sure, but. And I heard it, and I know this makes me sound like an arrogant asshole, but it reminded me of that there was a story about Ted Williams.

When Hank Aaron was a rookie, Ted Williams is playing, he was somehow involved in the I didn't know they had interleague games or anything but, but Hank Aaron is. Is is warming up. And Ted Williams is sitting in the dugout and hears from the way the ball is coming off Hank Aaron's bat that he's never heard that before.

And he storms out there. Who's who? Was just taking batting practice? And it was Hank, Aaron and and Ted Williams, like, and I sort of had that, it was akin to that. I'm not comparing myself to Ted Williams.

No, I am comparing John Mullane to Hank Aaron, though, he's a lot like Hank Aaron. But I, I'm saying that, I'm walking through the studio and I hear this and I go, That's a new writer, that's a new, we don't, that's not a writer.

I know, yeah, yeah, that's we have a new writer or a guest writer, because that that wasn't, that's not. And I'm listening to the piece and I go. That was not written by a writer whose work so, and it was right, I was right.

It turned out it was it was John, and he went on to write a lot of great stuff. Yeah, and then he's trying stand up.

He will get it. Hang in there, Sir Jim, I will. The highest compliment I can pay you is that I wasn't joking, you're in my head a lot.

And I think that's true of every comedy writer of my generation, and for generations before and after me. I think that's what would Jim think about this, would this meet Jim's standard? And that's a real gift you've given to all of us, an incredible gift, seriously, you've given us.

You are uncompromising and proud to know you. Thanks for giving me a shot way back in 1988..

I never want to see you again. This is a man. Yeah, sorry, that's really duly harsh.

Next time you're on, I want you, you dubbed with your own voice the whole time. Coder. It is a pleasure to be here. I must say, the last time, these microphones, these microphones.

Jim, thank you so much for doing this, thank you.

Our supervising producer is Aaron Blair and our associate talent producer is Jennifer. Samples engineering by Eduardo Perez. Additional production support by Mars Melnick, Talent booking by Paula Davis, Gina Batista and Brit Kahn. You can rate and review this show on Apple Podcasts, and you might find your review read on a future episode.

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