Episode 442: The Burger Chef Murders Part 2

I'm Dan Taberski. In 2011, something strange began to happen at a high school in upstate New York. A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms and spreading fast. What's the answer, and what do you do if they tell you it's all in your head?

Hysterical, a new podcast from Wondery and Pineapple Street Studios, binge all episodes of Hysterical early and ad-free on Wondery. Plus. Hey weirdos, it's me, it's Elena.

What's going on? How's your day? I hope it's awesome, That's all I wanted to say. No, I'm just kidding.

This is a message because I think a couple of episodes ago we talked about how we are going back to the OG way of doing things. We're doing two episodes a week, two big old, honking, delicious, juicy episodes with one listener tale a month. Just as a little cherry, a little glitter on top of a crazy month. And we're going to keep doing that. But I think we were also debating what days would be best for this new two episode a week cadence. Cause we figured, you know, from Wednesday to Monday is a long wait for us and for you, too much.

We'd all be sad, we don't want that. So we finally came up with a good cadence. We're going to drop episodes on Monday and Thursday from here on out, so Mondays, Thursdays, that's when they'll come out on Wondery Plus.

Then, a week later, you will get them Monday and Thursday for everybody else, so that's what we're going to do. You deserve consistency, we want to give it to you. I know we didn't do that in the first, like three years.

We were like Willy Nilly. Whenever you get episodes here, it is. But you know, we're in that consistency train and we want to stay on that. And yeah, I think this is going to work for everybody. It just feels better. We don't want that big chunk of time between episodes.

You don't, either. Um, so yeah, that's what we're going to do Mondays, Thursdays new episodes. We're excited about it. It lets us really put more time and effort into these episodes. Which is what they deserve and what you deserve.

And we fucking love you and I can't wait to see you every Monday and Thursday. I know I won't see you. I realized that I won't even hear you, but it feels like I will and you will hear me.

So we're all in this together, we're best friends. Thanks guys. Mondays, Thursdays.

Hey weirdos, I'm Alayna, I'm Ash, and this is morbid.

It is, and we're just coming off of a little celebratory moment. We got to see Obituary last night live in Somerville, in Somerville Kids, and we got to meet some of our fucking podcast babies.

It was beautiful, it was elegant. You're, you probably saw a picture. It looks like the last supper, but awesome, it does look like the last supper, but better.

But awesome, cause there's no brutus. Oh, Ash's microphone is literally attempting to assault her. It's falling off of the table, Mikey to the rescue.

Please help. He's going to fix it all, right? We're back and better than ever, and Alayna's got a correction.

It's also it's Judas, I know, it's Judas Brutus, is the Caesar one. I, you know, Judas Brutus. They're all betraying people. I like Caesar dressing.

Am I right? Yeah, that's my hot take, that's my hot take today. Love. I also love caesar dressing, as long as it's not too fishy.

Yeah, that's fucking foul. Sometimes you get one that's like, Ooh, that's a lot of anchovy. Oh my gosh, I was going to say, Do you know why?

I wanted to tell you something, it's really hard to tell you something that you don't already know, that you don't already know. It's a lot of souls coming out today, I am. We are both on like three hours of sleep.

Yeah, cause we we got to party hardy with our fucking friends. Yeah, it was wild, like I got to be an adult and go out.

And by party, Hardy, I mean, Elena ordered a Shirley Temple, just like a straight up Shirley Temple. I know, yeah, nothing added to it.

And it was great, I'm happy about that. You know what Madison taught me last night? Madison from obituary, which you should go see and buy tickets to Plug plug.

They are amazing. She taught me to mix, and I think it's a Harry styles song to mix. Um, diet, coke and red wine, and, um, Cabernet specifically, sounds like absolutely disgusting and foul. And I was like, I trust you, I took a sip.

Life-changing it's, it sounds fucking crazy, it's so good. I just hate diet, anything.

It doesn't, but it doesn't end up tasting diet, cause the I mean, I like diet Coke. I was going to say, I literally hate the taste of diet coke. Well, you could do it with regular coke, too. It it almost has like a sangria vibe.

Oh, that's interesting. You should. you should try it. you should try it. try stop copying me. Oh, oh yeah.

I got yelled at I, I accidentally, cause I don't look at any like, I usually don't see any comments. Because I'm just like, Uh, I don't go on the internet anymore. But we go on the internet to post what we want to post exactly. And then I'm out get that bread. And I happen to be on Instagram. And I got one of those like banner notifications. And it was somebody on a morbid post being like, Hey, has anyone else noticed how fucking annoying Elena is that? She just repeats all the funny things that Ash says in a like different voice?

And I was like, they said, Has anyone else noticed? Yeah, has anyone else noticed how annoying Elena is? And I was like, Why are you here? I was like, What did that get you?

Sometimes I wonder if people think that's kind of like, endear me to them. And I'm going to be like, Oh my God. Like, I know she sucks. You're so nice for saying that it's like, No, now Ash fucking hates you too.

Don't be mean to my sister, you fucking you fucking putz like I got, like, whatever it's like, pit us against each other.

It's not going to work. Do you think Ash is going to like you for that? Like Ash is like? We ride at dawn for each other, like we could, like, punch each other in the face one day.

Well, like we never have, but we could. And then Elena could call me and be like, Hey, I need you, and I'd be like, What time? Yeah, let's go.

Like, I'm here actually, whose car are we taking? whose car are we taking? I feel like I can't say that.

Cause I've never seen that movie, that's a great movie, but is that the town? But yeah, yeah, it is the town.

Hey, look at me, yeah, so I just, you know, I just was like, Wow, Okay, you need to. Um, you need to sign out of the morbid account on your phone.

I do need to cause then you don't get those banner notifications, cause that was the problem.

I don't go looking because, of course, not cause whenever I do I accidentally. That's the only thing you'll see is now you'll miss all the nice things that people say, which is sad. And you only will see that one nasty one. Because they always make sure to be like, you know, has anyone noticed that Elena is annoying?

And I'm like, Okay, um, so sign out of that, but then you might need to also because I need to do this. You might need to unfollow Morbid, which is so sad, that's so sad.

But I follow morbid cause like, it's my podcast, say it, it's my podcast. Oh my God.

You're so annoying, but so I'll like, scroll by and it gives you like that, like little, like two or three comments. I always see the meanest thing, always it's like, Why can't Ash speak?

Yeah, and I'm like, because brain damage, okay, I don't know. Those are always the ones that show.

And I'm like, Wow, Instagram like, that's fake as fuck. why do you just show me the mean one? I saw one recently that was like, Wow has a podcast, but she can't fucking talk. I was like, All right, well, there's two of us for when I can't talk.

And I just got to ask again, I know we've all asked this before. What's wrong with you? Like, who does that? like, who just goes like, what do you get out of that? Like that girl who was like, Has anyone noticed that? Elena's annoying.

I'm like, even if you gathered an army of people that were like, we are the writers of Elena being annoying. And you started a group and you had meetings and like, you had, like, a special handshake that you did like, do you feel good? Like, what, what else? What are you getting out of it? Also, why are you doing a census on my post? that's the thing, and it's like, on my post.

That's annoying in the mail. I don't need it on my post. But I was, and also that that person followed me and I was like, all right, well, hate following is a thing that people love to do, well, it's a it's a hate following.

It's like, you love me. I was literally like, Sounds like someone protests too much, Thou Doth protest too much. I don't think you find me annoying, I think you like me.

It's like, it's one of those things where you're like, Oh my God, you shouldn't pay it any mind. Like, of course, but sometimes you just gotta vent it out, which that's the thing. It's like, normally, like, we've really gotten to a point years through this that we don't pay it any mind.

Like the constructive stuff, sure, but like just people being dicks like that, like that's not constructive at all. Like, you can fuck yourself, no, that's just me. Like, that kind of shit is like, you're just you're being an asshole for the sake of being an asshole.

And I don't know what you got out of it, but I sure hope it gave you some kind of jolly because it sounds like you need it. Well, also, you're just like creating a negative space for yourself, and like, I speak from experience, if you put things out into the world that are negative. Even if you're not talking shit, like, even if you're just talking negatively, it comes back to you, it's true.

And then you're just attracting negative, negative karma is the thing man, attract abundance. That's why we're, and you know, it took like a while to get here, but that's why we're in a place where we're just like, you know what, whatever.

And we're also in a place of just like, we're going to keep trying to, like, build people up that deserve to be built up. Like, that's why we shout out different creators for you guys to go check out. And you're also you're like, the Queen of that. I don't even do that as much as you like, you're so philanthropic.

No, it's just fun, and it's really fun to see when like, like, especially on TikTok. I've been seeing it lately and it's like, really making me happy. You guys like, fucking kill it, yeah, cause like, morbid listeners will go follow these people that we mentioned.

Right? And then they'll be like, Oh, I got. I came here for Morbid and it's so fun to see, cause then it's like, they are, and they're always like, Oh, I'm so excited to have found this, this is so fun.

And it's like, I love, like, blowing those people up, you know what? That's called community, that's called community, it's called my brothers in Christ.

Hell yeah, I love that's what we are, that's called my brothers in brutism. You guys are the real ones.

So don't think that we take like the the Isn't Elena annoying ones, as like our listeners, that's that's not who we listen to. Don't worry about it.

She can't talk you guys, so yeah, exactly like you guys are the real ones, we know who you are.

We know, we know who this community is. We met a lot of you last night, It was so cool, it was wonderful. You guys are magical.

I will never not be cool. Yeah, so we know who you are, so don't worry, they don't represent you. But anyways, I just wanted to put it out there that, like, you know, if you're doing that kind of shit on the internet, like you might you. You should probably reevaluate where you sit in life because that's a really pathetic thing to do.

One more thing, I just have to tell you, if you're doing that, I'm literally just picturing you sitting in a crusty basement picking your toe cheese. That's actually very true, that's exactly cause.

I'm like, you're not happy and I know you have a fungal infection and I'm sorry about it, but that's not my fault. Maybe, cause, think about all the times in your life that you have talked shit like that or been somebody like that.

When, like, you're younger and like all that. It was always in the worst fucking times of your life. When you hate yourself, it was never when you were happy, it was never when you were a fulfilled person.

And that's why I'm just like, Wow, that's sad. No, I can honestly say I have never written a nasty comment on somebody else's Instagram. Cause it's so strange, like, What the fuck is wrong with you? It's so strange.

I sub-tweeted many, many, many people in my day abso-fucking-lutely, but I'm not going on podcasts being like, one time, I even sub-tweeted Drew. When we were in our breakup stage. And he texted me and he was like, Did you just fucking sub-tweet me? And I was like, I don't know what the fuck you're talking about, like, I don't even know what a sub-tweet is, Drew.

Who are you? Okay, he's like, we dated for a year and a half. I know you're the sub-tweet queen of the century. You're like, I don't know him.

And then I'm like, Wait, I love you, marry me aw love, I know what a wild ride.

That was a wild ride.

Scammers are best known for living the high life until they're forced to trade it all in for handcuffs and an orange jumpsuit once they're finally caught. I'm Saatchi Cole and I'm Sarah Hagee. And we're the host of Scamfluencers, a weekly podcast from Wondery that takes you along the twists and turns of some of the most infamous scams of all time. The impact on victims and what's left once a facade falls away? We've covered stories like a shark tank certified entrepreneur who left the show with an investment but soon faced mounting bills. An active lawsuit filed by Larry King. And no real product to push.

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She struck him with her motor vehicle, she had been under the influence, and then she left him there. In January 2022, local woman Karen Reed was implicated in the mysterious death of her boyfriend, Boston Police Officer John O'Keefe. It was alleged that after an innocent night out for drinks with friends, Karen and John got into a lover's quarrel en route to the next location. What happens next depends on who you ask. Was it a crime of passion?

If you believe the prosecution, it's because the evidence was so compelling. This was clearly an intentional act. And his cause of death was blunt. Force trauma with hypothermia. Or a corrupt police cover up, if you believe the defense theory, however, this is all a cover up to prevent one of their own from going down. Everyone had an opinion and after the 10 week trial, the jury could not come to a unanimous decision to end in a mistrial.

It's just a confirmation of just how complicated this case is. Law and Crime presents the most in-depth analysis to date of the sensational case in Karen. You can listen to Karen exclusively with Wondery Plus. join Wondery Plus in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

All right, so we're in part two of a case, we're in part two of the burger chef murders. This is a really sad one. Yeah, it is. It's a bummer.

It's technically still unsolved, which is always a hard pill to swallow. I love it, though, when you say technically, because then I get a little flutter. Yeah, because it's like, we got a pretty viable suspect. I never, I don't think I ever knew that. Yeah, there's a pretty viable one.

Sorry, did they come about recently or have they been? No, it's been out there and we'll talk about them. But it's one of those things where you just can't pin it. It's like, probably because they washed down the crime.

Yeah, that might have something there was, there was that whole whole nonsense and like, didn't investigate for like, a minute. Yeah, probably for a solid minute, a brief period of time.

But by so, at the end of the of part one, I was talking about how, you know, they really had exhausted the few leads that they got. And the state police had actually publicly stated in this case, we've got to hope that the killer or killers may have told someone who has a conscience who will come forward. So they're not even hoping now that the killer has a conscience, they're hoping that the person that the killer tells this to, they have a conscience and they come forward. Also, some killers are, like, pretty good at secrets.

Yeah, so that's you should probably. That tends to be like one of their their main traits. I feel like they should explore other avenues.

Yeah, investigative work, you never want to hear investigators go well. The thing we're banking on is that this guy just straight up confesses to someone. You might be waiting a while, and not only that, confesses to someone that has a conscience.

It's like, that's a lot for. I don't want to rest all of my hopes and dreams on that, I'd rather rest it on. Like, you investigating the case, same, you know, but either way, that sucks.

So I had mentioned it before, but in 1978, speedway police were dealing with a lot more shit than they normally did. This super small Midwestern town was really being pushed, like, to the limit of its resources. We mentioned in part one that there was these random, horrific bombings, yeah, that were seeming, and were ended up being connected to the murder of a woman.

And that woman was 69 year old housewife Julia Skifers. She was shot to death under very mysterious circumstances. The bombings that followed were just more stress and mystery. Added on to this whole thing. They happened in September, on September 1st.

Three bombings happened in Speedway that Saturday, there were two more and then another one the next day, and the last one happened the following day at Speedway High School. Oh my God.

So it was just constant. A bombing is like one of my biggest. Yeah, and they just don't know they were being put in like trash cans and stuff.

And at the high school, I think they were found in like a gym bag. Like somebody picked up a gym bag and it exploded. Oh my god, and like people were wounded by shrapnel, like it was tough.

And you said they went unsolved, too, right? The bombings, they did for a while. So these crimes were taking up all the resources and time that this really small town PD had to offer. They were not able to muster up a whole lot more for anything else.

And as November turned to December, state and local police were really just grasping at anything that could take the burger chef case forward. They just had nothing. But they were not entirely without leads because Speedway police were continuing to receive leads from the public, from telephone calls, letters. And in the end, they actually produced at least 36 leads that they could deem at least slightly credible, which isn't a whole lot. But really, the best leads that they had were the tip from that young couple who had been approached by those two men in the parking lot of the burger chef because they were packing.

And this was because they were necking, because, and this was like an hour or so before the robbery and kidnapping occurred. So this was a pretty good witness statement to have. The police department didn't have a sketch artist on Chef, Rock on chef on staff. I didn't even catch. I'm tired.

I need more caffeine. But they also didn't have the funds or resources available available to get a professional one, right? So detectives found and hired Robin England, who was an art student at Ball State University. Ball State, also was the niece of one of the investigators on the case.

And they were willing to create sculpture. Bus from the descriptions that were provided by the witnesses, and those witnesses later said that the bus were quote between 95 and 100 percent accurate. Wow, buses are always so interesting to me. these bus are very interesting looking bus.

Oh, I will say I saw that little little glimmer in your eye. They're very interesting looking. And a composite drawing was made from the bus and it was circulated throughout the press. OK, now and again, we have the witnesses saying that these are very accurate, so that means that the composite images are pretty accurate.

Ninety, five to 100 percent, that's huge, right? And they were at one point, we're going to see that they were able to find a couple of guys that literally are like dead ringers for these guys.

And somehow, they weren't able to place them in speedway at the time of the murders, and it, like, shocked me. Are they in the system? No, so. Photographs of these bus were circulated around the media, and a statement from State Police Sergeant Chuck Hibbert was released saying We are not calling these two men suspects.

We just want to talk to them, which we just want to talk to you. Literally. I was just going to say, Yeah, we just want to talk, man, we just want to talk, man. Hands up bro.

Yeah, it's off the record, it's fine, so, but beside these witness statements and witness accounts, this was really the biggest evidence they had was these composite images. So detectives hope that publishing them was maybe going to jog someone's memory.

Around that time, someone from the public that it was around the burger chef had maybe caught glimpse of these guys. And seeing the composite image was going to make them go, oh shit, yeah, I did see them and they were hoping this person would come forward. Help with an ID. However, the images definitely prompted people to call in about 600 calls to police. Wow.

None of them produced a concrete lead, not one now. Do you think that was because the tip sucked, or do you think that was because the police department sucked? I don't know.

That's the thing, honestly, that is. That's kind of the theme of this case. Everyone sucks. It's like, could it have been solved if they just did their jobs better? yes.

And it's like, Yeah, I think so, I think I said it last time, or it might have been after we finished recording. If they hadn't cleaned up that crime scene, they could have dusted for prints and obviously maybe couldn't have done a lot with them back then, but now.

Yeah, boom, boom. We'd have them. And it's like, at this point, we have no idea what evidence was left at that scene. Nothing.

There could have been DNA at that blood, there could have been anything at that scene, there could have been hell, there could have been a photo.

They could have taken a polaroid photograph of themselves at that scene and left it on the floor or the counter, and it was thrown away. Yeah, we literally don't know. There could have been boot prints, a mural painted on the wall by one of them.

We're going in different directions here. Like, it could have just I'm, I'm, I'm just an artiste. You're like, there could have been a razor scooter belonging to one of the murderers that had DNA on it and they parked it. But you know what?

There could have been, I'm saying, we don't know, because they just cleaned it all up and threw it away. It could have hit one of those detectives in the ankle. Yeah, didn't even fucking know it.

Exactly, we don't know. That is the most frustrating thing. So it's not that they like, Oh, there was blood and they cleaned it up, it's like, we don't fucking know.

We have no idea what evidence was at that scene. That could have absolutely nailed these fuckers, and it makes me crazy. Well, if one of them had a beard, too. You're like, I know that shit was shed, I know your shit was not taken care of, it was shed.

I know it. So as 1978 came to an end, the murders were kind of starting to fade out of the papers. That's fuck, people are starting to move on, nothing's happening in the case.

From the brutal killing of four youths in town. And when I say people, I mean everyone. But these poor victims, families who are still sitting there waiting for fucking justice and police are just hitting wall after wall after wall.

The reward money that the Burger Chef Corporation put out there, unclaimed, is sitting there. And apparently, even the typically very chatty jailhouse informants could not help push anything forward. And they were actually there. There's a quote in the Indianapolis star. That said, the Marion County jail, whose prisoners are usually a gold mine of information about crimes in central Indiana, had not yielded a single good tip about the murder.

Wow, like, that's pretty wild. Now. With the public kind of fading away from this case, the headlines are fading away. Investigators are now desperate to keep it in the papers. Keep the public engaged, keep the pressure on these. They, yeah, they know they have to make up for what they've done.

Right, like, what they haven't done for their negligence. So the Indianapolis star actually set up this new system, and with this system, readers could submit tips or other information anonymously. OK, which always helps.

I feel like it always gets people to talk more. And what they said was some of you may not realize you hold valuable information that just may add aid police in solving the crime. And it said that, it said. Do not sign the letter. But put a five digit number at both the top and the bottom page, then make a jagged tear across the bottom of the sheet, just above the number. OK, so I was like, that seems like a law that's very intricate.

Can I just write in? A lot of people are going to be intimidated by that, a lot of people are going to fuck that process. Yeah, I'm going to be honest if I, I'd be like, Oh, OK.

And then I'd read, like, put a five digit thing, OK, well, you know. I'd start. And then it would be like, also make this. And I'd be like, I'm out. Like, that's the third thing you asked me to do, I'm out.

You know what that reminds me of, and I don't know if it will make sense to anyone else. It reminds me of the instructions for a Scantron test. Oh, that's absolutely going to make sense to everyone listening. I feel like like that.

Like, Yeah, you get what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah, like your teacher would be like, OK. Fill in this bubble with this specific pencil. do not fill in the bubbles that are colored like this.

And you were like, I have so much anxiety right now. Write your name up here, write your name on the bottom, write your class number here. Write your class number here.

Don't you dare write your class number here? write my name over here, and you're like, can I just take the test? Like, but what's my name? what's my name, though?

I don't understand. So. The Stars reward desk immediately started receiving letters off of this because people were apparently not intimidated by it. We're all like, we would suck at this, but in 78 they were like, we're fine with it. I mean, yeah, you know, they had to do a lot of shit.

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Tickets go on sale August 9th, so get your truest true crime fans together and get tickets before they sell out. I'm Dan Taberski. In 2011, something strange began to happen at the high school in Leroy, New York. I was like at my locker and she came up to me and she was like, stuttering.

Super bad. I'm like, stop around, she's like, I can't. A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms, and spreading fast, like doubling and tripling.

And it's all these girls with a diagnosis. The state tried to keep on the down low. Everybody thought I was holding something back. well, you were holding something back intentionally. Yeah, yeah.

Well, yeah, now it's hysteria, it's all in your head, it's not physical. Oh my gosh, you're exaggerating. Is this the largest mass hysteria since the Witches of Salem, or is it something else entirely?

Something's wrong here, something's not right. Leroy was the new dateline, and everyone was trying to solve the murder. A new limited series from Wondery and Pineapple Street Studios. Hysterical?

Follow Hysterical on the Wondery app, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of Hysterical early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus.

So some weren't like, super detailed, like. One came from Johnson County, from a man who said that he saw a suspicious man who bore a striking resemblance to the clean shaven man. And this man was standing alone on Stones Crossing Road on November 18th. That's it all right. Just like, saw this guy and he's like, Oh my god, that looked like that guy without a beard standing on his street on that day over there.

Yes, I saw him, I saw him on that night and he was standing and he did not have a beard. That man was not sitting, he was standing.

And I imagine that these robbers, I imagine they were standing. So I'm like, did he look suspicious? Case closed, my friends. It's like, was he just waiting for a bus? Thanks for that.

I guess like we'll keep that in mind, that that road contained a man that was standing.

So then there was other ones that were a little more detailed. One came from a Greenwood gas station attendant. He wrote in saying that he actually recognized those bus as two men who'd short changed him in the early morning hours of November 18th. I have something to say. Ooh.

If a gas station attendant tells you something, listen, listen, yeah, like in a criminal investigation, I feel like they know, just hit a criminal, not like on a Tuesday.

Or in Urban Legend, the movie, when that poor man was just trying to scream, someone's in the backseat, Oh, that man. And she was being a dick, she was being such a bitch. That's one of those situations where you're like, you had the day you deserved, girl.

That man is so sweet, so sweet, and he was just trying to tell you something. And he's a gas station attendant. Yeah, he knows.

He knows they have seen some shit. They're harbingers, they tell you when evil is afoot and you need to listen to them. Think about our friend at the gas station.

He knows what the fuck's up, Hell yeah, he always knows what's up, and he has all the fucking drama. Hell yeah, he does.

So listen to your local gas station attendant if they're informing you about a crime. And this guy is saying that. On November 18th, in the early morning hours, he was short changed by two men who looked like those bus. And of course, you're going to remember that, yes. And he said it was strange because these men bought $12 worth of gas for their black Chevrolet.

So he was able to provide that, and, he said. But they attempted to pay with a $5 bill and two singles, so they attempted to pay $7 for $12 worth of gas. I think he thought like that they would. They probably thought that he would just take the five, thinking it was a 10 they could leave before he noticed. Which like, Wow, you're an asshole.

The fact that you just broke that down so easily cause a 10 and two singles. So it's like, I think they just did it to be dicks. And like, hoped he wouldn't notice, but I'm like, No, he's smarter than you now. He immediately pointed out this error and he was like, I think you gave me the wrong bill.

And they were like, Oh okay, so they went back to their car, they got the money. But then, he said, they both quote spewed obscenities at him while driving off, and it's like, Okay, all his gas. To me, that's a pretty credible tip, yeah.

Cause that's already a crime. And they seem like the kind of pieces of shit that would do something awful, right? So maybe track down, like, if you're that big of a piece of shit, you you're a piece of shit through and through. So the tips from the speedway police hotline and the Indianapolis Stars reward desk, they prompted hundreds of responses. But really, only a handful actually produced viable leads that they could even chase down.

And then when they chased down those leads, nothing, even the viable leads, they chased down nothing. So, after two months of investigation, there was still not even a clear motive for this crime. Because the robbers had seemingly gone into the burger chef to rob the restaurant. Right? But if that was the case, why the fuck did they kidnap and murder four teens there? Like, why did they do that?

And it's like we always hear the robbery gone wrong explanation for these kinds of situations. But this was really wrong, like this went really wrong, and not only really wrong, but they took them far away. Well, that's the thing I feel like. That's not, that's not even a typical robbery gone wrong.

They're just kind of like, presumably shoot them and leave them there. That's the thing that would be an that's a robbery gone wrong, that they just start shooting and everybody is at the scene, right? Very rare.

I mean, typically, robbers aren't in the habit of executing people in the middle of the woods, like pretty rare for that to happen. So the best explanation that detectives could have come to was that something had thrown them off their plan. That night, that they went in there ready to rob that place in. Some unexpected thing happened that threw the whole thing into just shenanigans. And the only difference that night that they could come to was the presence of Mark Flemons. He had switched shifts with another employee.

Investigators started to theorize that Flemons knew, or could at least identify one or more of the robbers, who were thrown off by his presence and killed all of them in a panic. I don't agree with that, I think they're they're looking at that theory from the wrong angle, in my opinion. I don't think it was that Mark knew these people, I think it was that they went in there thinking there was four specific people that were going to be working, which it also was, a girl who was supposed to be working in Mark's place.

I wonder if they went in there saying, Okay, there's three girls, there's one boy, and the boy is like a 16 year old, we can take them. And then when they went in there and they saw, now there's two strong, like, you know, there's two, like teenage boys, that threw everything off. I don't think it had to do with Mark knowing who these criminals were, because why would? The only people that I would think he would know are like his fellow high schoolers, that's the thing.

I'm like, I don't think this is the work of two high school students. No, exactly. But even with all of that, it's still like that. Even if they came in there and they saw what they were not expecting to see. Which is apparently an extra boy instead of an extra girl. Cause that's just my random speculation.

I can see that like throwing everybody off, but like, to that extent, yeah, not to that, that's exactly it, not to that extent.

It's just that there's a lot of unanswered questions in that. I feel like that's a theme of this whole. Yeah, every time you think you're like, Oh, well, maybe this happened.

You're like, No, that doesn't make sense, but maybe this is one of those things too, that it's like, it doesn't make sense. None of it's senseless. So like, maybe that's what it is. That was very profound.

Thank you. I thought so too, and I think it's real. So by March of 1979, really, the problem, you know, the territorial thing between between the departments egos, the fragile egos. It was again causing problems for the Burger Chef murder investigation.

And there was a lot of confusion among the press that was happening on March 7th, The Indianapolis News reported. Quote Speedway. Police Chief Robert Copeland and all his officers were ordered by his police commissioners and state police not to talk about any aspect of the November slayings. So they're essentially saying there was a gag order.

Put on them, right? But then when reporters asked more about this and they were told by the state Police Superintendent John, Settle or shuttle? Excuse me, this is the first I've heard of it. We don't dictate to anyone, we try to cooperate in a case like this.

Well, those are two very conflicting things. Yeah, that's that's opposite day, baby. And then, in the same vein, a spokesperson for the governor's office said. Quote Gag orders are the authority of the judicial system, right, which implies that unless a judge has issued that check that gag order, it's no, you're not under a gag order. So it's so wild with that.

And there was no explanation for this. So it seemed like Copeland's, you know, gag order quote unquote really was nothing more than just an attempt to avoid questions. Like, And they didn't? And not take on more scrutiny or deal with more scrutiny from the press. Basically, not wanting to confront the fact that they had made zero progress in this case and that it was botched from the start. And he was like, if I just say there's a gag order, nobody can talk about it. And it won't bring any focus to the negligence that we have committed.

Cause that's the thing. He just doesn't have answers, so he's like, I can't say anything. It's like, but you're just lying and making people believe you less. He put a gag order on himself.

If you don't have anything to say, don't say anything, don't say anything at all. Cause what could you say if you don't have anything to say? But then he just lied and I was like, that's something like a liar.

He lied right out of his face and into their faces. Fucked up brother, but whatever. So investigators thought they actually found that had actually caught a break in April, okay?

They finally something popped. Two men were arrested in Chicago on murder charges, and they were discovered to bear a pretty uncanny resemblance to the composite sketches. Here we are, here we are now.

On April 24th, Milwaukee Police cause it was in U.M. charges were in Milwaukee. Milwaukee Police arrested Steven Coffee and Norman Pepin. These were two criminals from Somerville, Massachusetts. I was there last night with their last night. Oh my god, they're fucking stomping ground.

There it is, uh, so. They were arrested for attempting to cash $300 in traveler's checks, but those traveler checks had been stolen from travelers. Not not just a random person, but one of two men killed in a quote execution style killing, oh yeah. The previous day, they had been flagged as being dead ringers for the composite sketches.

Execution style killings, you say it gets even crazier. So on Monday, April 23rd, they met three men. This is what happened.

They met three men at a Milwaukee holiday and they were in the city for an engineering conference. And the four of them went to a disco. As you do loves it now? On their way back to the motel, they pulled off the side of the road. And they robbed these men at gunpoint. Jesus, They took them to a disco and then robbed them.

And what's even wilder about this is they then, quote, forced them to lie down in a ditch and shot them to death. Dude, does this sound familiar? Sure, does. Now. Miraculously, one of the men survived and he called the police and was able to identify these two and he had been shot.

Yeah, Holy Cow now, based on their resemblance to the sketches and the fact that this was very similar, made them lie down face down in a ditch before shooting them. That all that like similarities to the burger chef case, uh, they had coffee and Pep and extradited to Indiana. I don't blame them because they were like, yeah, we got to at least look at this.

Yeah, talk to y'all. There, they appeared before a judge and they had to wear paper bags over their heads. Because they couldn't jeopardize a lineup and it would have tainted a lineup to have their faces out there. I love that crafty, crafty solution, and don't you love that visual?

Yes, I do. It's so weird, it's it feels wrong now, unfortunately, apparently, when they looked at the timeline of everything. Police announced on May 1st that Coffee and Pep And were no longer people of interest in the Burger Chef case. Did they give reason?

Just like the timeline didn't match up. But I'm like, okay, but like, why? like, I need you, I need you to say, because they were in Chicago when this happened. Well, and that's, and it's like, Nah, the timeline didn't work. I'm like, what about it? didn't.

Well, and also it's like, I don't know if I trust you with this case, I know that I don't. Yeah, I don't know about that.

Yeah, girl me either, I just don't know about that, you'll know, yeah. But by October of that year, investigators once again found themselves just completely lead lists on this whole thing.

And it seemed like the burger chef murders were really fading out of the the forefront here, they were fading out of the press, people weren't taking as much interest. And on October 2nd, the Metropolitan Board of Police Commissioners voted unanimously to fire Police Chief Robert Copeland. Oh, shit.

And they voted to do this because of his lack of leadership on the Bond bombings and the murder of Julia, and then also the Burger Chef murders. So all the recent crimes, all the things that he failed to lead his department about, all of his jobs, and so he was fired. And then after that, there was a bunch of dismissals or transfers of, like at least a handful of other law enforcement officers. That had some something to do with the Burger Chef case.

Wow, so they got either transferred out or they were just dismissed. That's interesting that some of them got transferred out and some got dismissed. It's a very strange. I also don't know about that, I don't know about that now.

Yeah, so years are going by at this point, right? Tips are starting to dry up. They're coming in, but they're not really doing anything.

Leads are definitely nowhere to be found, and the case is really going cold at this point. Then, in December of 1984, Indianapolis starred journalist Dan Luzardo. I think it's Luzardo or Luzardo, I thought you said, Luzardo.

And I was like, I don't think Luzardo, I think it is okay. Um, he received a call from an inmate, an inmate from the Marion County Jail. Finally, they're chitchatting.

Alrighty, now. This inmate was in there after being arrested for a ton of thefts. Uh, this man said that he had information about the burger chef case, he said. It's going to be a great story and I will happily give it to you as long as you're willing to help me out.

No, and so Dan was like, Yeah, I don't know how I can possibly help you because I'm a journalist, like, I'm not a judge, so like, I don't know what to tell you. But he was like, You know, it's worth finding out at least what he has to say. So he made his way down to the Marion County Jail to talk to him.

Now, at this point, the Burger Chef murder case is six years old. And at this point, like every single detail had been told retold in the newspapers. They've been, it'd been turned around, it'd been lied about, it'd been retracted.

All this just been through the mud, it has, through the thick of it. But it was, I guess, this reporter, Dan. He said that there was something about the story that he was told, that this guy was telling him.

That seemed truthful, like it seemed real, okay, and he said. More importantly, the man claimed to know the identities of who was responsible for the murders. Well, so we got to hear.

And he said one of those people has already been dismissed by investigators. Maybe that's why they were transferred. And then he said the other one was a name that he had actually heard, but that he this reporter had never heard before. But the police definitely had. This guy's name was Donald Ray Forrester, now Donald Ray Forrester's name. Like I said, didn't ring a bell to Dan, but it definitely rang a bell with the speedway area police. Because since he was a teen, Forrester had been very familiar with law enforcement.

He was a petty criminal, disorderly contact, conduct like petty theft, reckless driving, those kinds of things. What did I say? In the beginning? I said, this is not their first rodeo. No way there you go.

But then, after all these petty thefts and these little crimes, he definitely escalated to a violent crime in 1977.

So, right before the burger burger chef murders, he was arrested for assault and battery with the intent to gratify sexual desires. Which is a mighty escalation. Yeah, that is now. Forrester had actually been out on parole when the Burger Chef murders were committed, and he was arrested again for rape in April of 1979. So this goes in line.

Were the two female victims checked to see if they had, like, any signs that they had been raped? It didn't seem like they had been nothing, nothing that I read suggested that they were. But he had been sentenced to 95 years in prison. Wow.

So so, Dan Luziter, he went on, like a research deep dive on the burger chef murders and on Donald Ray Forrester. Because he was like, I got to try to make a connection here. And then he finally contacted Forrester, who was actually serving out a sentence at Pendleton Reformatory.

So they find he finally got him to agree to meet with him, and the meeting was June 24th, 1985. Now, at that point, Forrester had already been questioned by investigators about the Burger chef murders. He had failed two polygraph tests and but he was saying that he knew nothing about the case, nothing about the crime. It's so funny.

Cause when somebody I'm rooting for fails a polygraph, I'm like, it means nothing. It made a hot dog in a trench coat. And then when somebody I'm like, I don't know about you, they failed, and I'm like, Oh, they did it. You're like, Yup, that was it, I know.

It's so true. But so this reporter, though, was like, Cause he again, he's saying he knew nothing about the case. This reporter is not going to give up hope, though, because he's like, there's some connections here. The timing is making sense.

He was out on parole during that time, he had just escalated to a lot of violence and he committed another act of violence after. Yeah, it's not like his name was just pulled out of thin air.

I know, but when he's going to meet with him, he's like, I have to be realistic about this, he might not give me anything. So when he went, he asked Forrester, He said, Did you commit the murders? and Forrester said, I did not.

But then Luzardo began, just like Dan he met, he began, like pondering aloud. He's like, You know, I just wonder why, why did these murders occur, you know? And I guess Forrester, who was not asked directly this, just gave an answer and said it was drugs, drugs and homosexuality.

Yep, and he went on to say he was innocent, but he said he did know who committed the murders. And he said, I'll give you that information if you get me. A new trial for the rape charges that I'm in here for Dan is like, one more time for the people in the back.

I'm a fucking journalist, I can't give you a new trial, dude, I can write you a bomb ass article. That's pretty much all I got, man. Maybe I could put a good word in with my editor.

Like, I don't know, it's just like, Are you kidding me? So? But over the next few weeks, Dan Luzardo spent hours and hours and days and days just investigating Forrester, and eventually he got to interview Forrester's ex-wife. Oh, shit.

And a lot. Oh yeah, now. His ex-wife, she told Luzardo, and she told Luzardo that you need to bring detectives to this house. Okay, so he did.

He brought detectives and she led them to shell casings that were hidden in the couple's septic tank that matched the ones found in the Burger Ship murders. I don't even know where my septic tank is, but they do how, like, Yeah, what?

Yup, why? So then does that mean that they weren't flushing their septic tank? I have no idea how that works. You're like, don't ask those questions.

I have no idea what's a sub. I'm like, I don't know what they were doing, but what the fuck? But Luzardo brought this information to Forrester and was like, Um, yeah, like, Uh, do you want to say anything about that?

And he was like, Oh, no, I'm still innocent, but then he kept. He was like, coyly giving pieces of information that you were like, why would you know? How do you know that? But he kept saying he wanted something in return, and Dan again is like, I have nothing to give.

So did. Detectives were called in here to talk to him, and detectives spent weeks with him. They drove him to locations around with that they thought might be connected to the murders. They brought him to a hypnotist in Akron, Ohio. But he would not admit to doing it, and he said he'd never been there. He had nothing to do with it.

Investigators were so frustrated at this point. But eventually he did provide the names of two men that he claimed were the killers. But detectives interviewed these two men and they immediately knew he was lying. And also like, Oh, you just took the shell casings for them and the fucking stuff to tank all these years. When they they were like, as soon as they sat down and started talking to them, they him, the two men, they were like, No, no, like this is, this is a lie, right?

So by November of 1986, now nearly eight years after the burger chef murders occurred, detectives were just done. They were like, Dan for it. Donald Forrester is not going to do the right thing, he's not going to confess. We just have to try to get some evidence to, like, force it.

And then they were stunned because they received a call that year saying that Donald Forrester wanted to chat with them. So no one understands why or what led this to happen. But Donald Forrester sat down with these detectives on November 10th, 1986, and he gave a detailed confession of the murders. So what do you mean?

That this is unsolved. So, and these were things, details that only someone who was there that night could have known like. He described the positions of the bodies, the wounds they suffered. One of the things he said was that Daniel Davis had been shot in the cheek and that had never been released to the public. So why didn't did he get arrested?

That's a pretty spit. Well, he's in jail for 95 years. Oh right, so so yeah, but did he have to like? Well? He also told investigators that the gun that was used they threw in the White River, which makes sense that they never found the gun.

That's a big old river. And he also confessed that it was it was him who had shot Ruth Shelton and Daniel Davis. He admitted to the two, which also makes sense because Jane and Mark were the ones that were found further away. So not only did he confess, but he's confessing correctly, saying I'm the one who shot the two that were found on the ground. Holy shit.

Yeah, it's like, this guy did it, and did he say who he, who he did it with? Or he wouldn't give them the name now? So? According to him, the murders quote resulted from an effort to collect a large debt over a cocaine deal that involved one of the victims. And the crimes had been committed by multiple people, obviously.

Now, this was not seeming to be the real story. Because if we look at the four people involved, like the four victims, it doesn't add up. So everybody was like, I don't know about that. But in 1981, Jane Freit's brother, James, was arrested on cocaine charges. Oh so, you think maybe they went there to like fuck with his sister, to like intimidate him? And he actually said at the time of his arrest that he suggested that Jane's murder could have been connected to his arrest.

Cocaine shit, Oh no, it doesn't look like the investigators followed up on it at the time, though. In 81, what the fuck were they doing?

It was in 81, right? Like only a few years after, a couple of years after the murders, that that he was arrested. Jane's brother. And at that time, he said to investigators, Guys, I think this might be the reason that my sister was killed. And they didn't follow up on it. Like, and now this guy is sitting here saying that it's a cocaine deal. And is there any notes or anything like, Uh, do, do, do, like, do, do, do, do.

But that's like, wild, that they just didn't follow. Like, yeah, I cannot imagine a more poorly fucking handled case than this. No, well, and all the way through, seriously.

Because it's like, it's also once you look at the scene, you're like, Yeah, that actually makes perfect fucking sense. exactly. You're like, Okay, now I see that's why they didn't take the ring.

That's why they didn't take the cash. They got the money out of the thing, they got what they wanted, and then they got to that. And that's what it makes sense, yeah.

That's brutal, yup, now, based on this whole thing. Police now connected the murders to the huge drug ring that had been operating in Speedway at the time. Okay, uh, it was run by a guy that Forrester actually implicated as the individual who planned the whole thing in the first place.

Yeah, cause he was running it, so he wanted his money exactly now, in exchange for the information. Forrester was granted immunity from prosecution for this because he was already in prison for 95 years. But he was only going to be granted that if he hadn't committed the murders, which he already confessed to.

Okay, so they kind of, like, played a little game and two weeks, but this kind of backfired because two weeks later he recanted. And he said that he had been coerced to confess by police and that they threatened to, you know, they threatened all this stuff. And that he was when he was sent back to prison, he was going to be labeled an informant and like, that was going to get him killed. So that was him getting scared. That he confessed, right, and that he told all this shit about a huge drug ring. And that when he went back in, that they were going to, like, clearly, make them pay for it.

Exactly so. Now, the confession is recanted, and investigators are looking for anything that can tie physically Forrester to these murders. I mean, that confession is great because he gave the details that only someone there could know, but then they have nothing physical. And then it's like, if he's saying it's he was coerced into that, it's their word against it, cause then he can say, Well, they gave me those details.

Exactly, but so they're trying to come up with anything. And they came across a charge from 1969, where Forrester was actually arrested for sexually assaulting a 14 year old girl. Wow, he's a piece of actual human garbage. In a wooded area off Stones crossing road, which was about a mile and a half from where the burger chef murders occurred.

Wow, now. For some reason, he was never sentenced for sexual assault. Oh good, but it kind of proved that. One he's a piece of shit, and two that he's familiar with the area that they were found now. Unfortunately, District Attorney Stephen Goldsmith didn't think this was sufficient to prove his guilt, which I can kind of see if I was on a jury.

I don't know if that's just not enough, that's the thing now. His confession, and then the recanting of that, put the district attorney in a really bad position. There's one hand that's like the D, like. I said, the details.

It's it's a near certainty that he is one of the killers, a near certainty. But on the other hand, this story had unraveled and been told and retold and fucked around so many times that it was now really difficult to tell what was true and what was lies, and what was manipulated and what wasn't. But the fact that he knew the details of, like one of them being shot in the cheek with that had never been released. And they all believe like he 100 is one of the killers, like that, is it?

But it just makes proving it a completely uphill battle. And the biggest problem that the district attorney faced was that so many people had been involved in the investigation and had contact with Forrester. And all of them had received varying versions of the story and none could send up, settle on just one version of the story, yeah, so it was like no one could even settle on. Like, this is the narrative. And then what makes everything worse is that the territorial stuff and the ego stuff had completely plagued everything about this case over the years, had led to so many miscommunications, tainted evidence, missing evidence.

There was going to be a mistrial if they brought this 100, 100, 100. It was such a tainted investigation from the beginning, from the start, exactly it was now.

On December 20th, 1986, D.A. Goldsmith called a meeting with investigators from all the agencies involved in this case. Together, they combed over Forrester's statement. It was 1,200 pages.

1,200 all the statements that he had made, Holy Cannoli. And after reviewing everything, Goldsmith held a press conference and he made an announcement. He said after careful consideration of this entire thing, he would not be pursuing charges against Donald Ray Forrester for the Burger Chef murders.

So bad for those families. They must've had hope for the first time in like, so many years. And then just have that ripped away from you. And he said that it like killed him to do, to not do it. But, he said, too many years have gone by, too many mistakes have been made in this case.

And I don't know if we're going to be able to solve it. No, well, and the thing is like, legally solve it, exactly like.

I think everybody kind of knows what happened at this point and it's like, that's horrible for the family that they had that hope. But at the same time, I'm glad that he realized that they didn't have enough. Because if all those families had to go through trials and reopening, all of that, and then to have an end in a mistrial or not guilty, fuck that. Exactly that's the thing.

Cause it's like, if they had gone through with it, it just would have tainted it further. Exactly so it's like, I understand why he was like, it's really not worth it to do this. Ah, it's such a bummer, though.

I know it bummed me out so much. It's like, cause I know he did it now. In 2003, oh shit. 25 years after the murders, Um, Rachel and John Shelton, who are the parents of Ruth Shelton, they gave an interview about the still unsolved burger chef murders.

And they said, at first, I was convinced that it would be solved. That's what her mother said, and she said, I guess we sure don't hold our breath about it. It was a very long time ago, which is like, so sad cause.

That's just like like just throwing our hands up, like no one's going to do it now. They had both hoped the killer would have been caught, but then when detectives told them that they didn't have enough evidence to prosecute the suspects. John Shelton said To be honest, I don't even want to know their names. I like, he was like, I don't even really cause.

It's like, if I don't know for sure, then I don't want to harbor hatred and resentment toward one person that murder could not have done so. It's like, forget it, I don't even want to deal with it, it's so half ass at that point.

I'd be like, fuck off, yeah, like, whatever. And today, the Burger Chef murder case is open but inactive. It's so hard.

Cause it's like, now there's no evidence, it's just sitting there and all the evidence that they do have all the notes, all the statements and everything it has. It's in a five drawer file cabinet and six and a half foot wall locker. That's at State Police District 52 Office.

Just sitting there, just not being touched. It's been years since they've pursued any leads. And most of the original investigators are actually all of the original investigators on the case of have either retired or died. Yeah, and the Burger Chef restaurant chain was actually sold to CKE Restaurant Holdings in 1982..

And it is now Hardy's restaurant, which I didn't know. I don't know if I haven't heard of parties, parties, it's like a burgers. I think, oh, okay, yeah.

Um, and today, the old Burger Chef restaurant on Crawford, Crawfordsville Road and Speedway sits empty. Oh, isn't that chilling, really? Yeah, but then at the same time, it's like, What would you want to see?

Go up there, I know, other than a memorial, like, No, it's true, like something I know it should be like a park.

Yeah, I feel like, Yeah, you know, but in the end, we're just left with this. Nothing. This frustrating void of information that we know, if more investigatory, like due diligence was done from the get go. And people didn't walk into this thing with a preconceived narrative in their head.

And they had actually taken even one fucking photo of that scene. That this all could be different is mind boggling. But now we're sitting here and they're trying to solve this case. That was just completely erased from the beginning, they erased it right from the beginning, and literally they magic erased it away.

Yeah, and it's like, and then and then they're trying to, like, you know, right from the get go, they're all sitting there being like, Well, I think these kids just, you know, uh? They decided that night to just steal all the money out of the safe and then took off together. Like that was their first theory. And it's like, with no prior past, of any kind of, with no criminal past, like, it's just like, Okay, I see you.

I see you. And then later, they theorized that it must be Mark, the only Black employee that was taken out of that restaurant that day. Who knew the killers and that he was the reason that they were all killed? And it's like, with what fucking evidence? you have no evidence to back that up, you're racist.

Like, we're just going to go. With Mark being the problem here, I don't think any of them were the problem here. No, I think, I think they were all victims. And I think I do think that. If Jane's own brother suggested that his, the cocaine stuff could have been to do with it, like his sister's murder, yeah.

I think we should listen to them, right? They're telling you some followup questions on that. And he's not bullshitting. It's not like her, his brother, her brother is being like, Oh no, but he's. He's actively saying like, probably out of guilt, like, probably out of, like, anger and sadness.

And like, grief like this could have had something to do with it. Like, investigate it. And they were like, why would he say that, other than to be like, please, like, investigate this. He's not going to implicate himself even further. No, he brought it like that.

Is that's a fucking brother? Yeah, absolutely, like, regardless of what he was doing in his personal life or any, like the the cocaine stuff, it's like that he was being a brother.

Yeah, like he was being a brother and being like, I'm going to put myself out on a limb here. And I want you to investigate this because I think it could have something to do with it. And they just ignored him.

Oh, and then you have Donald Ray Forrester sitting there giving that exact same story and saying it is because of cocaine, right? And a debt that would need it to pay. And it's like, that's seems to me to line up, wow.

Yeah, it's a very frustrating case. And also, if that is, if that is the case with the whole cocaine charge. It's like, why did you like you didn't need to involve his sister in the burger chef restaurant? No, it's like, fucked up. Deal with it directly.

No, it's really fucked up, that's, but it's scary what money will do to people and drugs? Yeah, money and drugs mixed together.

Oof, bad, yikes. It's like a bad, bad combination. God, that's so scary.

Drug rings, I think, are one of the scariest fucking things on the planet because it's truly ruthless. Yeah, that's why I'm just like, Okay, bye, bye, uh, yeah, when?

That being said, we hope you keep listening, we hope you keep it. We're so weird that you run a drug ring, cause we're scared, bye, bye.

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