Episode 510: Alvin and Judith Ann Neelley Part 2

I'm Dan Taberski. In 2011, something strange began to happen at a high school in upstate New York. A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms and spreading fast. What's the answer, and what do you do if they tell you it's all in your head?

Hysterical, a new podcast from Wondery and Pineapple Street Studios, binge all episodes of Hysterical early and ad-free on Wondery. Plus. Hey weirdos, I'm Alayna, I'm Ash, and this is morbid.

Ooh, it is morbid. Yeah, it's super morbid, because, um, it's part two, right? Yeah, it's part two of Alvin and Judy Neely, two fucking monstrosities. Yeah, this is, it's a rough one.

I hope you guys were. How are you doing after part one? Yeah, you okay, I know it's just like this one. It's a there's not a large, you know, body count here, but my goodness, the one. The victims are just first like to have them be children.

Yeah, and the way they do it is just like nothing. I. It really bothered me. Do they go after another teenager? Slash child in this one? Um, no, but it's it's another, it's another young woman who is, it's bad.

I mean, it's sad all the way around. Yeah, it really is. So when we last left you, um. Police had found Lisa Milliken's body. 13 year old Lisa Milliken, Yeah.

Who was lured away from a mall when she was on an outing with a group from a home for neglected and abandoned girls. That's so terrible, and she was held for a manner. I think it. I believe it was four days, right?

Because they were going to different motels and everything. She was repeatedly sexually abused, she was, I mean, she was held there. Who knows what else happened, right?

And she was eventually, uh, injected with, basically like dishwashing products, cleaning products by Judy Neely. Six times and then thrown into a canyon after being shot in the chest. Do they know were they able to determine when she had been injecting her with the cleaning products? They believe it was when she was tied to the tree outside. And she didn't die right away, so she was shot in the chest and thrown over the canyon. Thank God.

Yeah, it's horrific, it's like, unthinkable, truly. Um, so that's where we left you, which is a pretty horrible note to leave you on.

Um, investigators really did do their due diligence in this. They were trying their hardest, they were going after every lead when we talked to you in part one. All the departments are working together right now, which is great. And it's going to help them stop this quicker. But unfortunately not quick enough for someone else to die.

Okay, uh. So, on the afternoon of October 3rd, Diane Bobo was on her way to work at a Hardee's restaurant in Rome. Um, unfortunately. She ran out of gas near the Thornwood school and and it was like this whole ordeal she went through, where it was like she ran out of gas. And then she tried to push the car and then she, like, ended up stalling in the middle of, like this intersection. She had to push the truck off the road. Just a bad morning.

And she called her husband from a pay phone, and then she sat on the curb and just waited for him to come. She was like, you know, I gave it my all. This thing is not starting, so I need help. So while she's waiting, she's by herself, she's just waiting on the curb. And Diane was approached by a young woman she'd never seen before, Judith.

Uh, she later, so, as Diane was later able to describe this, So Diane is going to be okay. Um, she would later describe this young woman as wearing clothes, quote that looked too big for her and appeared as if she'd been wearing them for several days. So basically, Judy always looks foul when she walks up to people, which I think is by design as well as just by nature. Is she trying to look like destitute? I think she's trying to look desperate for help.

She's trying, cause she looks younger, she is younger, so she's trying to walk up. Looking like somebody that's in real trouble and needs your help. Somebody will basically preying on the goodness of others. Yeah, that's always good.

Um, and the girl said to her, Don't I know you, aren't you? Patricia? Alexander? and Diane was like, I am not Patricia, nor am I Alexander. I am neither of those things. Um, and she was like, I was just hoping that she would just go away.

Like, I didn't want I had a shit start to my day. She's like, I don't know, I'm not Patricia Alexander, please go away, fuck off.

But this girl kept looking at her and she kept talking to her. And Diane was like, Can you please fucking go away? Like, I'm just waiting for it, like, I don't want to deal with this. And she told Diane that she had been out riding around and she was kind of lonely, so she thought maybe Diane wanted to go for a drive with her.

What? And Diane was like, on no planet would I want to do that, and by no situation would I want to do that. But she said also, she just seemed off something about her. She said Her vibes were horrific.

Well, somebody's asking you like, you know, I'm just bored. I wanted to go for a drive with someone. Run the fucking other way, yeah, get out of there.

She said The vibes are just weird, dirty. And then she looked over at the girl's car and she saw a child in the car. Because, remember, Judy has children. Oh fuck, I literally forgot that.

I was like, why does she have a child? yep, and she said, But this girl was telling me she was alone and she's lonely, and she's lonely.

But there's a kid in the car and she was very, and Diane was like, Listen, no, I'm good. And she was like, I, you know, my car just broke down. I got to go to work. I'm not driving around with you.

And my husband is coming so like, piss off. And so Judy was like, Well, no, I can give you a ride to work, like when she's getting my car, I'll give you a ride to work. And Diane was like, Listen, I just called my husband.

He's on his way. And the girl got even more persistent and was like, get in my car, you should get in my car. And Diane was like, No. And she finally got super firm with her and was like, No bitch.

Like, leave my presence. I don't want to deal with this. And finally, the girl walked away and went back to her car, and she drove off, and Diane, she drove off, right as Diane's husband pulled up on his motorcycle. Good timing.

So later that evening, John Hancock and his 22 year old girlfriend Janice Chapman were walking home after visiting Janice's mother. They're walking on the side of the road when a brown car pulls up next to them. No, thank you. The young woman driving the car told the couple she was new in town. She didn't know anyone.

And she wondered if they wanted to drive around with her for a while. I just sorry. That immediately makes me think of John Mulaney. I'm new in town. John initially was like, No, thank you.

Like bye and told the driver that they didn't actually need a ride. It's fine, like we're good, cause she was like, It looks like you need a ride.

Like, I'll bring you where you need to go, like we can, just, you know, we'll be friends, no?

But he looked at his girlfriend and Janice wanted to go like, it was clear. So the thing is, Janice had struggled to make friends. She had a lot of social issues in general, so John thought that this was like, going to help.

He was like, I just didn't want to discourage her if she was actually looking to, like, connect with another human being. So he was, yeah, he was just trying not to. Like, you know, burst her bubble, you know, all that? burst her bubble, yuck her, yum.

You know, that's all he got. So they got in the car. Oh no, now, almost immediately after getting in the car, they noticed something was off, something was off about the car.

Something was off about the driver, the whole situation. And so the driver had told John and Janice again that she was new in town and didn't know anybody. But after they pull away, she starts talking to a man over CB Radio. Oh, and even like that alone is just so creepy.

You get in a car with a stranger and then they start talking to someone over CB Radio. That's like, So, again, we say this all the time about something that would happen in a movie, and you'd be like, Eh, too much, yeah, and it's like, this happened. What do you do?

You're already in the car at this point. So it's like, and something about CB Radio man? Ever since? Joyride, Yeah, Joyride has really, and obviously Joyride had not come out yet. But they hadn't been driving for long when they crossed over into, I think it's Chattooga County.

CHATTOOGA Yeah, okay. And the girl pulled over to the side of the road, beside a very large, very, very densely forested area. Oh, no.

And before he could even ask, cause he's like, what the fuck is going on? before he can even ask, why the hell are we stopping and pulling over next to a forest? Yeah, the girl turns to John and points a gun at him.

Oh, no. She demands that he get out of the car, and by then another car had pulled up and a large man got out. Oh my God, I think we know who these two are.

And John was so confused, had no idea what to do. He doesn't know if this girl is going to shoot Janice, shoot him, shoot both of them, shoot herself, He doesn't know what the hell is happening. He's like, she looked serious. Like this was not a bluff.

Right, and so he did, as he was told, and he got in the other car. He was like, I didn't know what else to do. I didn't want to put anybody in danger.

Who knows what you would do in that situation? So both cars drive around the area together for hours, so John is now in Alvin's car, and now Janice is in Judy's car. They're driving around for hours, hours, until arriving at an isolated area, John was told to get out of the car he was in.

Once he was out of the car, the girl got out of the other car and forced John into the woods a little ways. Then, without warning, she shot him in the back. Oh my God, and just left him for dead. And walked back to the car and drove off with Janice inside. Oh my God.

Just walked him into the woods, shot him in the back and left him there and thought he had died. Yup, but clearly the way you're telling the story, he did not, no.

And it was not. It wasn't very light in the woods, like there was no natural light coming in, and it was already getting dark. And so Judy couldn't really see where she had shot John. She just assumed that whatever she had done there, it would be enough to at least prevent him from making it out of the woods. And that eventually, he would just die because he wouldn't be able to find his way out of the woods because it's dark. But the bullet had actually gone through his right shoulder and it had lodged in his scapula, which is a very painful injury, but it's not disabling.

Okay, well, that's great, so I'm not, but like, it's great that he was able to, like, just play for a minute, play dead and then get up. Exactly because, not long after the car pulled away, he was able to make his way out of the woods. And he flagged down a truck driver who picked him up and drove him to Floyd County. Medical Center and emergency room attendants were able to get the bullet out of his scapula. And he was discharged around 4.30 a.m. just an hour and a half after arriving at the hospital.

And he talked to a sheriff's deputy immediately. The way this man just got shot, finds his way out of the woods, hitchhikes to the hospital, gets a bullet removed from his shoulder. And after, like, what an hour and a half? They're like, Okay, bye, you can leave now, we'll, we'll bill your insurance.

Then he's like, Cool, I'll go to the sheriff's office. I guess this man lived a whole last life in a matter of a few hours, a whole lifetime. Oh my, and and he's sitting there wondering what the fuck is going on?

Yeah, he doesn't know where Janice is, wife or girlfriend, his girlfriend, girlfriend.

And so later that morning, a sheriff's deputy and an agent from the Georgia Bureau of Investigation, the GBI. Uh. They visited John at home to take his statement, and at first they were skeptical about what they heard. Uh, he was shot y'all.

Scammers are best known for living the high life until they're forced to trade it all in for handcuffs and an orange jumpsuit once they're finally caught. I'm Saachi Cole and I'm Sarah Hagee. And we're the host of Scamfluencers, a weekly podcast from Wondery that takes you along the twists and turns of some of the most infamous scams of all time. The impact on victims and what's left once the facade falls away? We've covered stories like a Shark tank certified entrepreneur who left the show with an investment but soon faced mounting bills. An active lawsuit filed by Larry King. And no real product to push.

He then began to prey on vulnerable women, instead selling the idea of a future together while stealing from them behind their backs. To the infamous scams of Real Housewives stars like Teresa Giudice, what should have proven to be a major downfall only seemed to solidify her place in the Real Housewives Hall of Fame. Follow Scamfluencers on the Wondery app, or wherever you get your podcasts. you can listen to Scamfluencers early and ad free right now on Wondery Plus.

I'm Dan Taberski. In 2011, something strange began to happen at the high school in Leroy, New York. I was like, at my locker and she came up to me and she was like, stuttering, super bad. I'm like, stop around, She's like, I can't.

A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms and spreading fast, like doubling and tripling. And it's all these girls with a diagnosis. The state tried to keep on the down low. Everybody thought I was holding something back.

Well, you were holding something back intentionally. Yeah, yeah, well, yeah, now it's hysteria.

It's all in your head, it's not physical. Oh my gosh, you're exaggerating. Is this the largest mass hysteria since the Witches of Salem, or is it something else entirely?

Something's wrong here, something's not right. Leroy was the new dateline, and everyone was trying to solve the murder. A new limited series from Wondery and Pineapple Street Studios. Hysterical?

Follow Hysterical on the Wondery app, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of Hysterical early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus.

The reason being that John had a very flat affect and very like, monotone way of talking. Well, because he's just gone fucking through it. Thank you. Today, we would look at that and go well. He's in shock, he's disassociating.

And also today, I think we look at it a lot more. We've said this in a few other cases as everyone reacts differently to situations and some people aren't going to react the way. That you want them to. And that doesn't mean that they're not feeling the feeling, it just means that they're not portraying the feeling how you want them to, I'm sure.

Like his, his lack of emotion, combined with his like non life-threatening injury. It's all kinds of stuff, but it just never like occurred to anyone at first that like, maybe he just talks like this normally.

To investigators, it seemed like he was very casual about having been shot and his girlfriend having been abducted. And there were other parts of the story that stuck them as a little strange at first. Like the couple had gotten into the car really easily, and like they, and they were like, you didn't try to overpower the driver at any time, at any point. Like, you know, she had a gun. They were asking questions, which they should ask. Of course, obviously, because we have seen also cases where someone pretends that they are a victim and they are actually part of the whole thing.

So it's like, I totally get why they were, they were doubling down on what they had to say. But, like, you can look at it both ways. But regard. And again, regardless of what they were suspecting here about John, it did appear as though Janice Chapman had been abducted. So that had really happened, so the case was opened and investigation began. Okay, good.

And it was which I like, that. They weren't going to allow them, being slightly suspicious of John's story, to stop them from immediately looking for Janice. So it was not lost, either on the press or the investigators, that Janice had been taken. Just a few days after Lisa Milliken's body was found in the canyon, so detectives were like, it feels like this is more than coincidental. Like these are two young women, there's another young woman involved in the abduction story.

Like, it feels a little, and that doesn't happen all the time. And when? Rome Police played the recordings of the calls to 911 for John, the ones that they had gotten from the bombing and the shooting, all of the previous cases. He confirmed that the voice of the caller was very similar to that of the woman who abducted Janice.

So Rome Police captain Mike Ragland told reporters There are a couple of similarities, but for every similarity there's a discrepancy. So he's just like keeping his, you know, he's keeping on the ball here, which I think is good now. Cause we're always also like hammering on anybody who goes in with, like, a preconceived narrative, or just jumps on a narrative and won't look any other way. So I think it's it's safe to say they were going about it in the right way now. In the days that followed, the search for Janice Chapman grew exponentially in size and scope.

I mean, things were starting to puzzle together now and by then. Diane Bobo, our girl who had her truck had broken down and who Judy tried to abduct. But she just she was like, don't talk to me, I'm having a bad day. She had reported her weird interaction and she and she said, You know, this sounds very similar to the conversation John Hancock told police about.

And he and Jan, you know, he and Janice had a very similar interaction with a very similar looking girl. So it's like, this doesn't just happen. And the linkage was further confirmed a day later, when a Rome woman called police to report that her 13 year old daughter had been approached by a young woman who tried to lure her into a car. Oh no, so they were trying to go on like a spree.

Absolutely. And the girl's description of the driver and the car matched the same one given by Diane Bobo and John Hancock. Oh no, so we're, we're really going here now, yeah.

And there were other similarities, too, like the 38 caliber bullet that was pulled from John Hancock's shoulder. Was a match for the ones in the Lisa Millican case. I didn't even think of that possibility, so they were able to now put these together. And now they're looking at John too and being like, Sorry. So it didn't take long before the voice on the 9-1-1 recordings about Lisa Millican was recognized as being very similar to the voice of the person who placed the calls to Ken Dooley and Linda Adair. Several weeks before all this.

And it was confirmed by Dooley and Adair in police interviews that this is the same voice. And to investigators, it was pretty clear that there was at least two people that were terrorizing the Rome community. Yeah, and now they're kidnapping and trying to murder young women, in some cases succeeding.

Like, this has escalated quite quickly. But the thing was, it's like they all seemed similar, and they had similarities, but they were random as fuck. Well, that's the thing, like the calling and threatening to bomb somebody's house, or actually going through with it, throwing a bomb at someone's house.

Molotov cocktail shooting into someone's house, a man and a woman, and then killing, abducting and killing a 13 year old girl, right. Attempting to do it to other women of varying ages, yup.

But like younger, I guess, and then abducting a 22 year old girl and shooting her adult boyfriend. It's all, it's all very just like, all over the place. It's like you can't figure out that. And the worst part about this was like, they have all these connective similarities.

Like, they can pull this thread through all of them and go, Yeah, we know this is the same person. But we cannot predict what they're going to do next, so there's no predicting. And that's like, terrifying, absolutely so. Although they had, like, we just said, very little evidence to go on. Detectives did believe that their suspects, or at least, you know, the young woman, were probably from out of state.

Okay, they also believe that there was a real connection to the Rome Youth Development Center. Yes, definitely, because, and they were like, we can't figure it totally out, but there's gotta be something. So they decided which was smart to comb through the records there, looking for anyone who matched the composite sketches that they were able to put together from the various witnesses who had had this woman approach them?

And they decided to cross-reference that those ones with anyone on that list who was out of state. Okay, and after tons of detailed research and work like real work, they were able to track down everyone on the list and verify their alibis. Wow, except for one.

Judith, Neely, Judith, Neely. So as Rome Police Detective Kenneth Kine read through Judy's file, he began seeing, you know, some circumstantial and anecdotal things that, at least in his mind, linked Neely to the crimes committed around Rome. He was like, You know what, I could see this.

Okay. She had first been arrested for committing a robbery at the same location. Lisa Milliken disappeared from. Oh, I didn't even put two and two together on that. The couple was arrested near the area where Lisa's body was discovered.

For that robbery, and she appeared to be committing crimes with a man. And so a few days later, on October 12th, John Hancock picked Judy's photo out of a photo lineup and said She was definitely the woman who shot him. And later that day. Diane Bobo and the 13 year old girl who Judy had attempted to abduct in Rome also identified Judy's photo from a lineup as being the woman who tried to lure them into her car. This is my favorite part of the whole story.

It all just starts coming together, it's like the what we say in the rewatcher, it's the third act montage. Oh, it is, cause it's just coming the scooby game unites and just gets all the evidence together.

So, based on the identifications, arrest warrants were issued for the arrest of Judy Neely. Let's go. And as luck would have it, investigators didn't have to look too hard for their suspects. Because three days late, earlier, on October 9th, Judy was arrested in Murfreesboro, Tennessee, for passing bad checks. Are you kidding me? So she had already been arrested.

Wow, and that's a add that to the list now. Bad checks, unable to make bonds. She sat in the Rutherford County jail in a cell where she was repeatedly visited by a man who seemed very anxious every time he came to speak with her.

Imagine that so. Rutherford County spokesperson Lucille Butner told reporters The officers here got suspicious because the man had been in so many times. And a few days later, Tennessee authorities arrested Alvin Neely for not the murders yet or the abductions, but as him being an accomplice to her larceny scheme. That she was doing so they were able to get them on that. On the morning of October 14th, 1982, detectives sat down to try to pull all the pieces together.

But the problem was, they still didn't know where Janice was. I was just about to ask, Where's Janice in all of this? And at this point it's not looking good. No, because now one of them is in jail and then the other is visiting, it's like, Where's Janice?

Right, so, after all of this, when they sat down with Alvin, they realized he was a little sniveling. Coward. Cause, remember, Alvin is a failure in all ways, that one can be a failure. Um, he was a fucking worm.

And Kynes said he was just a complete wimp, not too bright, more or less a slob. He just didn't fit the picture at all. And right then I thought there must be something real strange in all of this. And he was even more surprised when Alvin told him he wanted to talk about the crimes.

But then he said, I didn't do no murder, I ain't never killed nobody. And I was like, Well, I think by what you just said, I think you said you killed people. Cause I don't know if those double negatives all add up to a positive, but if you ain't never, then you did, then you did.

Cause it means you didn't never so, you did so you did exactly so.

It sounds to me like you just admitted to murder my friend, correct? Uh? So? Alvin's lawyer, William Burton, came to the police station and they all sat down for a formal interview with Alvin Neely. And, according to Alvin, he had been with his twins. Remember his children?

That's so upsetting. On the night of October 3rd and he got a call on the CB from his wife. Judy told him she'd picked up two people and she could, and she referred to these people as John and Kay. Okay.

Kay is Janice's middle name. Oh, okay, and she said she wanted him to meet them. uh-huh. now once he drove out to meet them, they all got in.

By the way, he brought his children okay. Once they all got out of their cars and exchanged introductions, John got an Alvin's car, and Kay got back in. Jen, he was referring to her as Kay, Yeah.

Into Judy's car with the kids, and they all drove around for a little while. Wait, sorry. So the kids are with who at this point are now with Judy and Janice, okay?

Jan Poor Janice is probably like, What the fuck is going on? And they're driving around looking for it, he said. For a place to buy alcohol, uh-huh, and after they've been driving around for a while, John needed to pee.

So Alvin pulled over and let the man out totally. Also driving around for over an hour trying to find somewhere to buy liquor. Yeah, we live in America.

Yeah, there are liquor stores fucking everywhere. Exactly, uh. But once John had peed, he said he started walking down the roadway away from the cars. So seeing John walking away, Judy got out of her car and started to walk after him.

So Alvin said he went to check on the children. Of course, what's a doting father? Of course? See, we want to make sure that everybody knows that.

And so, yeah, I went to go check on the children in the other car, which is when he noticed that Janice was handcuffed to the seat. Oh, just happened to notice that in the car with the children. Oh, by the way. And he said quote She was just sitting there in the dark.

She was real quiet, she didn't seem to worry about, worried about nothing. Um, I doubt that, I doubt that highly, yeah.

Um, after he loaded the kids back into his car. These poor kids are just getting shuffled around in the middle of their parents. What the fuck is going on? Just abducting people? And we don't. I mean, yeah, they're probably like toddlers at this point, I don't even know at this point how old they were.

They, Yeah, I think they were young. Yeah, so Alvin yelled after John and Judy, telling them to hurry up, but only Judy came back, he said. But he didn't know what happened. No tracks.

There's no plan there, you know? Didn't hear a gunshot or anything. Yeah, and from there, they just went back to the motel room where Judy told Alvin she had shot John. Oh, yeah.

Once they were back at the motel room, Judy began. Now, Judy began mocking Janice and making fun of the way she spoke. Oh, I really hate that, uh. But he said Janice didn't seem really bothered by it. I think she was probably just trying to stay quiet and in shock.

Stay alive. The next morning, Alvin claimed that Judy and Janice left the motel to drive around for a while, eventually meeting up with Alvin at a local dairy. Queen and Alvin said to investigators quote She was out of control. I was afraid she might shoot me this time. She's a dangerous person talking about Judy.

Right? And he said, she firebombed that house in Rome, oh shit. And he said that. Judy and Janice left the Dairy Queen together, and when Judy came back alone, she told him she had shot the girl and left her body along a rural back road.

Oh, he then drew. he then drew up a map for investigators, and he signed it. Oh, wow, yeah. Now. They later learned this story was at least partially true. Yeah, but somewhat.

The next day, October 15th, Janice Chapman's body was discovered alongside a rural road in Haywood Valley. She had one bullet wound in her back and two in her chest. That's so sad. Rome Police Chief Joe Cleveland told reporters. We don't really have a motive. There was no robbery involved.

Wow, so they just killed her to kill her for no reason whatsoever. And I love that Alvin just wasted no fucking time pinning all the murders on his wife.

Every single one, he is the most sniveling little worm I've ever seen. Like, she is a piece of absolute fucking garbage. Yeah, the two of them.

She just showed me a picture of that, but I'm like, Oh, I know they're just so fucking foul. They really are. Um, they're posing in front of a Confederate flag here. Yeah, exactly, disgusting.

Yeah, but he called William Burton and asked if he could also represent Judy, so he's throwing Judy under the bus. What? And then trying to get her into a lawyer.

Now, unfortunately, Judy hadn't asked for an attorney, so when Burton arrived at the station, investigators refused to let him see her until she asked, Yeah. And so, in the meantime, Judy was crafting a defense pretty similar to her husband's, which is she was claiming it was Alvin who had killed Lisa Milliken and Janice Chapman. So now they're just turning on each other.

Of course, I was like, Uh, Myra and Ian. My thoughts immediately. It's just it says against the world, and then they get arrested and they're like, Fuck that person.

They did everything. I hate them, girl, I am like, your love endures. I am scrolling through pictures right now and I am just flabbergasted. It just makes sense.

It does now. According to Judy, she had never been in trouble with the law until she met Alvin, and she had only engaged in criminal activity because of Alvin. You're like, we've seen your rap sheet more, Yeah, and what's sad is that Judy had a beginning to life that was rough.

Like that was, she was seemed to be triumphing in the beginning, like, that's a thing, and it's like she did really give in to her dark side. That was clearly always there had to have been, uh. The detective showed her a picture of Lisa Milliken, who Judy acknowledged as having met at the River Bend Mall a few weeks earlier.

But she said I noticed her because she looked like Joni Cunningham, who is a character from Happy Days. Oh, if you look up Lisa Milliken, she's adorable, she does remind me she is like a Happy Days character, She's just beautiful.

Now, ultimately, Judy made two statements to investigators in Alabama and Georgia. She acknowledged participating in the attacks on the YDC, The youth, you know, yeah, the YDC employees. Yes, yes, and the kidnapping and murder of Lisa Milliken and Janice Chapman. So she acknowledged participating in these.

Okay. But she claimed she had only participated in the crimes because she was under the control of her husband, who had physically and sexually abused her.

She struck him with her motor vehicle, she had been under the influence, and then she left him there. In January 2022, local woman Karen Reed was implicated in the mysterious death of her boyfriend, Boston Police Officer John O'Keefe. It was alleged that after an innocent night out for drinks with friends, Karen and John got into a lover's quarrel en route to the next location. What happens next depends on who you ask.

Was it a crime of passion? If you believe the prosecution, it's because the evidence was so compelling and this was clearly an intentional act. And his cause of death was blunt force trauma with hypothermia. Or a corrupt police coverup, if you believe the defense theory? However, this was all a coverup to prevent one of their own from going down. Everyone had an opinion.

And after the 10 week trial, the jury could not come to a unanimous decision to end in a mistrial. It's just a confirmation of just how complicated this case is. Law and Crime presents the most in-depth analysis to date of the sensational case in Karen. You can listen to Karen exclusively with Wondery Plus. join Wondery Plus in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

Okay, now here's the thing. He is a piece of fucking shit. absolutely, he is a monster.

He has a noted and proven history of being physically and sexually abusive to the women, the girls, I was going to say, young girls. So that can all be true. Absolutely, that doesn't take your involvement away.

Yeah, you did it, and also it doesn't take it away. It's like, So your life is just terrible all around.

All of it is, and it's like, I don't, there's, there's so much mess here. Yeah, you know that, like all of these things, can be true at once, that's it.

That's exactly it. Judy is a, Judy's a fucking monster she, she had monstrosity inside of her, and she's a predator, she's a predator.

And it's like, So she, she has that inside of her, absolutely. And Alvin is also a fucking monster and doesn't even hide his monstrosity. It's just right out in the open, he beats the shit out of people he's supposed to love.

He threatens to kill his own children, like he's a piece of absolute fucking garbage. It sounds like, so is she? Neither of them knew how to love. No, they are.

So it's absolute, it's very real to believe that all of this is true at once. I bet she had this inside of her and that she deserves to be punished for it. And that he also was in control of her and physically and sexually assaulted her to gain control, I believe it.

I believe all of it, yup, so. According to Judy, Alvin had demanded that she find girls and young women for him to sexually assault. And that she only agreed to help because, quote she was willing to do anything to avoid further abuse. Okay, I believe that, up to a point.

Exactly, it's like, nope, you enjoyed it, you did it, you literally inserted cleaning products into somebody's body, yeah.

It's like, I don't feel bad about that part like you're, I don't feel bad about who you are on the inside. Like you clearly let it out this whole thing. That's why this case is so fucked up.

Cause it's just like it is hard to see any of the well, any good, or any kind of positive anywhere here. Layers and layers of fucked up, yeah, sadness, shit, horrible, rage.

Abuse, trauma, lousy with sadness. The more investigators spoke to both of them, Alvin and Judy, the more convinced they became. That. Like what we were saying, neither one of them was telling the full truth. No, and that's how we are kind of saying it here.

All of these things can be true, and they can not be true at all. So just days after Alvin was trying to completely blame Judy for all the murders, he'd come up with a new explanation. He said there were seven other victims, and, according to Alvin, he and Judy were quote recruiters and enforcers. And this is a quote and a prostitution ring, but not all of the slayings were connected to prostitution.

And that was a quote, by the way, okay? So now he's trying to say that he's working for this ring and he's an enforcer and a recruiter along with Judy. And that this all has to do with that. Uh-huh now. Based on his statements to police, Alvin did seem to have some details about the murders of young women that had happened around the state. That they hadn't connected to them.

Okay, but it wasn't super clear whether that was because he was involved in them or he could have just read about it in the paper. It was in there, like, the things he had weren't things he couldn't have gotten in the media, he said. Or the Georgia Bureau of Investigations director Phil Peters told the press All I can tell you is we're checking it out.

There's a lot of misinformation floating around about it. But we have agents talking to them. And we're just trying to evaluate, find out exactly what we have to do to separate the facts from the fiction. This must've been really hard, I can't even imagine. They seem like two fucking liars, and it's like they're lying about each other and for each other. So it's like, this is just, it's a mess.

Yeah, now, while Alvin is spinning crazy stories at this point about like these, you know, criminal rings and other conspiracies, he's going off the deep end. Judy remained mostly quiet in her jail cell. She kind of stuck to her story that she was just a victim of Alvin, okay?

And that was it. She wasn't going away from it. Well, that was probably her best case scenario. It truly was. Now. To most investigators and among people in the media, Judy's explanation was, you know, as good as any other.

It they saw who Alvin was, so it wasn't completely out of the realm of possibility they got together. When she's how old? He has done this previously. They're seeing everything we've talked about.

But Detective Kynes, who was the one who had spoken to both of them and had spent a lot of time talking to Judy, he said, I don't know about that. Okay. After hearing what Judy had to say about everything, Kynes said. Quote She's mad because she had to serve a little time. It's revenge against the system, so he's saying she had to serve time in the Rome youth. Um, you know, the juvenile detention center there, which is what those first attacks were after.

He's saying she was pissed that she had to do that. Maybe something happened there, she snapped. Who knows? None of us know.

Nobody's claiming something did or didn't happen, she's claiming something happened. We have no proof either way. Yup, something could have happened there, but either way, she's pissed about her time there.

Yeah, and he's saying, this is totally against the system. And so investigators really started to believe this theory more, and they were starting to look more into it. They started speaking more and more with Judy, trying to get a little more out of her. And in an interview with Alabama District Attorney Richard Um, I think it's Ag ego, I believe it is.

I'm sorry, Richard, Uh. Judy explained that she liked Lisa and didn't want to hurt her, and in fact, she claimed she only killed Lisa. Because she didn't want to get caught. And go back to YDC. And what about the cleaning products? Thank you.

And here's the thing that they believe, they believe that she was first. It was revenge against the people who worked there. She was going to get that whole story that, you know, the fire bomb, the shooting, and then they had this whole list.

They were going to go through, they were going to fuck up everybody who worked there. That wronged her. I think that was real. And I don't know what the reason for it was, whether it was based off of abuse or not. But it certainly could have been, yeah.

And what they think now is that. She started going after like people that were similar to her in that position, like young girls. She started like they started together, going after. Fucking terrible. It doesn't make any sense that, like, let's abuse.

But nothing about this is rational in any way. It's true. May have even been like, subconscious, that she was doing that. Yeah, you know, they don't know.

They just think this is her being pissed about something that happened to her or that she didn't. She was pissed, she had to do time at all. Okay, I mean, I can see it, it makes sense.

Now, on October 28th, the Dekalb County Grand Jury was convened to hear the case against Judy for the murder of Lisa Milliken. Uh, they deliberated less than one day before returning an indictment. And in the three count indictment, she was accused of not only killing Lisa, but also of kidnapping and sexual abuse of a minor. Wow.

Uh, if she was prosecuted to the fullest extent and found guilty, she was going to face the death penalty in Alabama. Wow, uh. Even so, her court appointed lawyer, Bob French, was convinced that she had only participated in anything out of fear. And he was, quote, dedicated to a not guilty verdict. And I say, good luck, yeah.

Also, like, Of course, you are, that's your job now. The problem facing Alvin and Judy's lawyers was that neither of them denied kidnapping and killing Lisa and Janice. They both admitted that they were both there. Alvin was also an idiot. So when he would try to create elaborate stories and lies to save himself, he always ended up actually creating traps for himself to just go lump into.

Um, I mean, good, yeah. So this is a trigger warning. And for this next part, because I'm just going to say something about the Lisa Millican thing. And it's pretty horrific. It's sexual abuse related.

So I just want to let you guys know that that's coming. It's just for a second, so you can skip forward really quick if you want to. Okay, um, for example, during an interview with GBI agents, Alvin repeatedly denied raping Lisa Millican.

Uh, but when agents looked at him and said, Well, how the fuck then did she have semen found inside of her if you did not rape her? And Alvin said he, he just kept denying, but then he turned it into an outrageous lie, according to Alvin, he said. And this is horrific, he said. Lisa was handcuffed to the bed in the motel room when Judy masturbated him into a Dixie cup and then poured it into Lisa.

That was his explanation.

I actually don't know what to say about that. Instead of just like, you're caught, you're caught, you got caught, there's no. It is black and white, it is you are caught red-handed, and you come up with the most wild.

And just disgusting, foul and complex explanation for something that is a black and white like, there's no. That's on another level, stupid this fucking worm was.

Oh, that's so heinous. And again, that was his way of still saying, Well, Judy was part of that. Uh-huh. And it's like, just admit that you're a fucking pig, that you're a predatory fucking pig, and you've done this your whole damn life.

That's so like you, disgusting pig. The fact that his brain would even make that up is so.

Incomprehensible investigators, first of all, must've been sitting there, horrified, disgusting, but also sitting there and just being like, Are you fucking kidding me? like, How dumb do you think we are?

Who do you think you are talking to? And again, with each new lie. He just got himself more and more tangled in his own fucking guilt, and it's every time he would, more or less, just admit his guilt again. Exactly.

And over the course of the investigation, his story changed repeatedly. First, it was all Judy's idea because she was crazy and dangerous. Then he claimed they were enforcers in this ring, and then that whole thing fell apart. So he started blaming Judy again and telling detectives she was bisexual and it was her idea to kidnap and rape the girls. Okay?

So now he's saying that, like, this is her idea and she wanted it. She's bi, so that's why it's like, Alvin just literally let it go, get so fucked.

Like, it's just, you're so dumb, just admit it. I hate when people like when they're backed into a corner like that and they just keep going, cause I'm like, liars like that.

When you are literally holding something in front of them and being like, look, and they're like, No, that's so infuriating, like, so infuriating. Like that was like my ex-boyfriend when I held up, like proof of his cheating, like a literal physical piece of proof. And he was like, No.

Misprint, and it's like, Are you? Like? He told me, a movie theater misprinted a ticket. A movie theater misprinted a ticket. Yeah, like those kinds of people where you will hold a piece of evidence that is indisputable in front of them. And they will lie their way out of it.

I have shown someone a text that they sent from their phone and they sat there and told me that they didn't send it. Yeah, when I had proof that they did. People who lie like that are scary, they just will lie.

It's just like they don't care, they will never come out with the truth, and that is Alvin. The scary thing is, you start to wonder if they do believe it, with the just fucking like conviction with which they lie. The oomph.

And the oomph with which they deny the truth, with how they'll defend themselves. Yup, it's really scary, it's intense.

Like, really scary. When faced with that, it's unlike anything you could possibly ever explain. I listened to my ex, if he's listening right now, fuck you, honestly not. Even. I'm like, enjoy story time because you definitely remember this.

Listen to him in the bathroom, talk, have a full conversation with another girl, full conversation, making plans, listen to the whole. Heard her voice, could hear the entire thing, heard him, like, like, talking back, Oh yeah.

Having a full conversation, yup. And then he came out and I said, What the fuck, I just listened to that entire thing. I know you were talking to a girl and he said I was listening to a voicemail.

That's unbelievable. And then you feel crazy, Oh yeah, cause I was like, Oh, obviously, I'm crazy, that's the other thing.

They will make you like the wildest tales. You'll be like, That probably happened. Yeah, you're like, Oh, I'm the crazy like.

I'm being very like, I'm losing it, I'm being wild for even like, I need to check myself before I. And that's what Alvin I think. That's also why he surrounds himself with younger people, because they're easier to dominate. He likes to control, and he obviously likes to have that manipulation tactic under his belt.

That's what he uses, and he's disgusting. He's sitting here trying to pull it on seasoned fucking investigators like the Georgia Bureau of Investigation, and he's sitting there trying to pull that shit. That would be like, you, you want to pull it on like a 19 year old girl who thinks they're in love with you.

Yeah, it's probably going to work like, oops, I know this, but you try to pull it on. Some people who have been through some shit, no, it's not going to work. They've seen like the worst of the worst.

Of course, so it's just for him to pull out. The judy's bisexual, and it's her idea to kidnap, so she's bi, so that, so she wants to kidnap and rape girls, that's the other thing.

I know what you're trying to say here, sir, because this was what this was. The Seventies, yeah, it's like the in the early Eighties or late Seventies. So he's like, this terrible thing of bisexuality, they just want to go abduct and rape young women.

And it's like, No, I think you have actually proven that you do that so good try, it's kind of your Mo, but you're both gross, uh? So, in Judy's case, Bob French, her court appointed lawyer, was having a similar problem. Because in one interview after another, Judy confessed to participating in the assaults on the YDC workers and the kidnapping and murders of Lisa and Janice. So again, similar issue, because, like, they've admitted it.

So what's the case? And faced with two capital murder cases, he filed a motion in early December to have Judy tried as a juvenile. He acknowledged that his motion was pretty unlikely to be approved. Like, because of what, like, how bad it was, yeah.

The crime, um, he said. We would be remiss in our duties if we hadn't asked for the youthful offender status such. Since she is a juvenile, uh, but I seriously doubt it will be granted, considering the magnitude of the crime. The fact that she's still a fucking juvenile and this is her rap sheet, and how many fucking kids does she have?

Does she just have the two? I mean, at this point, she has three? I think three. Yeah, wow.

I think at least two. Wow, yeah.

So French's motion for youthful offender status was denied, it was denied. And on March 7th, 1983, her trial for the murder of Lisa Milliken began in Dekalb County. And after two days of jury selection, opening arguments began with Richard. I think it's I ego, I believe.

Okay, um, arguing on behalf of the state now, Richard told the jury of Lisa Milliken's harrowing four day ordeal. Where she endured torture, multiple rapes, and then was injected with caustic chemicals. And then shot and thrown off a cliff. By Judy Neely Wow, like it doesn't get more heinous.

No, absolutely not. Judy did this not because they were claiming Judy did this, not because she was under duress or because she was being violently abused and controlled by her husband. She did it because she wanted to. Yeah, and personally, that's what I believe.

I believe she was being violently abused by her husband and I believe she wanted to do this. Yeah, I believe both those things are true. And like Detective Kynes, he contended that after a brief incarceration for the robbery at the mall where she was in that juvenile detention center. She had developed an anger and disdain for society and humanity. And she wanted to seek revenge, which she took out on girls she perceived to be like her.

Yeah, that's wild, yeah, now. In her defense, Bob French told the jury, You know, a different, a different side of this story. In his version of events, Judy was quote beaten and brainwashed into procuring 13 year old Lisa Ann Milliken.

As a quote, unquote sex partner, which I was like, you mean, rape victim? Yeah, for her husband. And then she just followed his instructions in killing the girl and pushing her body into little river canyon. Which is wild to me. That, like, Judy's like, Oh, I did it.

Like, she's not even blaming it on Al, like she's not even being like, Alvin killed her. He's like, Oh, she's like, Oh, no, I killed her.

Right, and they're having to be like, yeah, she just did it because he told her to, and it's like, I don't think so, according to French quote, every move, every action, every thought for carrying out. This heinous event was planned, calculated, and instigated by Alvin Neely, who had been violently controlling her actions since the day they met and began a relationship when she was only 15 years old. Again, I think it's all true.

It's just, and I think she wanted to do it. It's wild to me that all of this happened in the span of, like, a couple of years. Yeah, now. In support of his defense of what was then known as battered woman syndrome that's referred to, Um. He offered testimony from Judy's clinical psychiatric examinations that had concluded that Judy quote probably fits the battered women's syndrome to the most severe extent that the psychiatrist had seen. Wow.

This is why I do believe all of these things can be true. Um. The psychiatrist also noted that Alvin's mental state was substituted for Judy's own, resulting in a situation where Judy quote had no intents of her own. So French told the jury Judy was reduced to a robot by this man who saw himself as an extension of Clyde Barrow and his woman as Bonnie Parker. Oh.

Who knows, I don't know. All I know is they're both terrible. That's the thing, that's the thing.

So again, I don't dispute any of this. Yeah, I think it's all true at the same time, and I think she didn't. You don't do that kind of thing, you don't inject someone with cleaning fluids six times and then shoot them in the chest unless you want to do that.

Mm hmm, so. The district attorney acknowledged that Judy absolutely may have been influenced by her husband, and you know what, maybe she wouldn't have acted violently without his urging.

Maybe she would have held it all in, but she was still responsible for her actions that she did do. The hypothetical maybe she wouldn't have. Doesn't really have bearing on anything when Lisa and Janice are lying dead in the ground. So they said her plea was not guilty by reason of insanity, and even if it had been such, a plea does not include abnormal behavior manifested by repeated criminal or antisocial acts. And what has happened here is criminal, antisocial and of the highest degree.

So after two weeks of very graphic testimony, a lot of evidence, the jury deliberated for less than four hours and returned a verdict of guilty. Hell yeah. The circuit court jury recommended ascendance of life in prison without the possibility of parole, which I think is very fair. Um, French. Her, uh, lawyer said Judy is in pretty bad, bad shape, and he referred to her as a basket case.

Again, a quote Yes, um, under Alabama, Alabama, Alabama. Under Alabama law, the judge actually has the right to accept or reject the jury's recommendation for ascendance. So, although they recommended life without parole, he had the total authority to say yes or no to that. Wow.

And when Judy returned for sentencing on October, on April 18th, 1983, Dekalb County Circuit Court Judge Randall Cole actually chose not to accept it, huh? and he sentenced Judy to death. Shit, he said.

By any standards acceptable to a civilized society, this crime was heinous, atrocious and cruel. Agreed and asked by the judge if she had anything to say on her own behalf, Judy said I didn't have any feelings. I had no thoughts or feelings except to do what I was told. There's nothing I can do to change the past.

I can keep things from happening again, I can help battered wives, and that's what I want to do now. I don't know if it was really love or fright from being so scared of him or dependency.

One of my biggest pet peeves in murder trials is when the person says, I can't change the past. We know, because, you know what, everybody fucking knows that, particularly your victim's families, know that save your breath, and they are living with that thought every day that we can't change the past.

So we don't need to hear from you. I can't change. We know that fucker, we know you can't even do basic algebra, so we're not worried about you changing the fucking path.

That's redundant. Thank you, Judy. What we're worried about is you, a caged fucking animal, being let out into society and doing this all over again. Well. And the thing that pisses me off beyond that is when they sit there and say their plans for the future. When they took away two people's plans for the future.

Like, that's great that you want to do that. Did you happen to ask either of those two girls what they plan to do with their futures, precisely?

It's like she's sitting there, being like, your children's lives are going to be gone. So that I can become this wonderful face of, you know, this cause, and you know what, they, they, they died for me to change lives. And it's like, wow, like if I was a family member sitting in that courtroom, I don't know how people do it.

I don't know how they do it, I have so much respect for the people. I don't think I could do it, absolutely not. I don't think I have the willpower.

I think, like anybody who is able to sit there and control themselves, I think like you deserve a standing ovation because you're a you're a higher vibrating human than myself. Now, hoping to avoid another trial and another potential death penalty for her case in Georgia for kidnapping and murdering Janice. Judy agreed to plead guilty to the charge of kidnapping and agreed to testify against Alvin in exchange for the state of Georgia agreeing not to pursue murder charges or the death penalty. Now again, she was already sentenced to die in Alabama, so authorities in Georgia were like, I think it's fine.

If we agree to this plea deal, like she's sentenced to die and she's going to testify against Alvin. Which is basically just a win for them, there's no really win for her there. Precisely so. Having been indicted in March for the murder of Janice Chapman, Alvin was indicted a second time on May 10th, 1983 for the murder of Lisa Milligan.

Now, seeing how Judy's trial had ended and the fact that, uh, she was definitely going to testify against him in the Chapman case. Alvin agreed to plead guilty in Georgia to charges of kidnapping with bodily harm and murder. And in exchange, the state was agreeing to not pursue the death penalty.

Interesting, So I think this is good. He was sentenced to life in prison. Okay, which I think is great.

I agree, take it. And he began serving his sentence at Bostick State Prison in Hardwick, Georgia. So like, bye, Alvin, see you fucking never.

I don't think it's fair that she got death and he didn't. They did the same crimes. Uh, well, you'll feel better, um, so, after she was sentenced, she became the youngest woman ever sentenced to death in the United States. Yeah.

Cause I just looked, I tried to figure out her age. I think she was born in 1965, so she was either, I think she was 17, yeah. She was in trial, 17 years old, and was sentenced to the death penalty for murder.

That's wild. And she was sent to Julia Tutwiler Prison for Women to await execution death row. Now immediately, though, obviously. Judy's lawyers filed an appeal on her behalf and they argued that her Miranda rights had been violated following her arrest. Because law enforcement officers failed to inform her that an attorney had been called to the jail by her husband, cause, remember, Alvin, does that count home? Well, Alvin?

So the whole thing was as a result. Her lawyers argued that the statement she made during those early interviews were inadmissible and she deserved a new trial. The justices disagreed because they said Judy had repeatedly stated that she didn't need or want a lawyer. Right? So, and she had continued speaking freely with investigators. So she had said out loud, I don't need and I don't want a lawyer.

Okay, so that negates all that, exactly. And in their decision, they upheld the lower court's conviction, and the justices wrote. Even if Mrs Neely's confessions were inadmissible because of a violation of her fifth or Sixth Amendment right to counsel. Any error in the admission of those confessions were cured by her own testimony at trial.

Right, so they were like, even if that had happened, she testified at trial and said she did it right. So, like, we don't need those earlier confessions, actually, because she just said it in the court plain as day.

So, after more than a decade on death row. Judy's sentence was commuted to life in prison by Governor Bob James, who cited the jury's original sentencing recommendation as the reason to commute it. So, 10 years on, death Row is 27 and gets commuted to life in prison. That is my age right now. Yep, I can't imagine.

Like, yeah, but she's such a fucking monster, yeah, and they so, they did this because they said that original jury had wanted life in prison without parole. Right? So they are allowed to go back and commute that sentence back to that, which, like, I don't know.

I don't know how I feel about that. I got to look further into that. Like, I don't want to spout out an opinion without being fully researched. My initial thought is like, huh? but I think in this case, it's a huh.

Cause it's like, what the fuck, yeah? But I guess it could be beneficial in other cases if maybe the judge handed out like a ridiculously unfair sentence, yeah.

And I think I, I'm also moving my opinion on the death penalty so much that I think I'm also just like, Eh, I honestly, life without parole? I'm like, that works for me. Yeah, and I guess, in my opinion, it's like, what's the point of having the jury if the judge can just do whatever the fuck they want? Yeah, that's true.

You know, but then, like, what's the point of the judge if the jury gets the final say? Yeah, you know, it all kind of is convoluted. Yeah, it really is. But either way, following this whole thing. The Alabama Legislature passed legislation in 2003 to prevent Judy becoming eligible for parole.

But then changes in the law in 2018 undid that legislation. I was going to say, making her eligible as of 2023, yeah. In May 2023, the state Parole Board deliberated for less than an hour and denied her parole. I saw that.

As of today, she is still in Julia Julia Tutwiler Prison for women. She is serving out a life sentence, but she will be eligible for consideration for parole again in 2028. Wow, and she's only, I think she's 58 right now, 58 or 59, yeah.

So so she could very well still be alive. Then. The thing is, from what I looked up, I think even if she got parole, she would have to go serve in Georgia.

Oh, because I think she'd like. I think she will still have to serve a life sentence in Georgia, so I don't think it will even matter. Interesting, I'll look it up again and I'll make sure to update it on the next episode, okay?

But I'm fairly certain that, from what I read, she will have to continue serving another sentence in another place. Even though it's like consecutive kind of thing. Because they gave her the plea of taking death penalty off the table, but they gave her love. Yeah, so yeah.

So I think she'll get parole and then immediately have to go to Georgia and start serving a life sentence. So like, why, why even give her parole? Just don't. It's kind of a waste of everybody's time. ALVIN NEELY In case you were wondering, cause you were like, he didn't get death.

He did, he didn't, he got death in the end. He served roughly 20 years of his life sentence at Boston State Prison, and then he died in October 21st. On October 21st, 2005 from complications following surgery.

Oh well, yeah, bye. So it is quite a story.

And they are quite a pair. Yeah, they both belong to be locked away and have the key thrown away. Yeah, they sure do. I don't think there's any hope for somebody that can inject another person with drano and dish soap.

A child? I don't think, a 13 year old child, I just simply don't think, yeah.

I don't see how you can be reformed past that, but you know, here we are. Wow, what a horrific case.

Yeah, I would really love something paranormal for the next episode, uh, but I personally am working on like a old timey one. Ooh, so sorry to some.

Sorry to some, but but yay to others. Yeah, exactly. And then, I mean, we're going to be coming up in the next few weeks, we're going to be hitting you with some, like, pretty gnarly cases, so.

Yeah, just be prepared for that. A whole smattering of spooky in there too, just to like, cleanse your palate in between. But don't worry because there's some rough ones coming.

Yeah, you know, we got to move away from the most wonderful time of the year, exactly Halloween, exactly.

Except it still hasn't happened yet. No, technically weird, yeah, but anyway, we hope you keep listening.

And we hope you keep it weird, but not this weird, cause, uh, I don't know about that.

If you like Morbid, you can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at Wondery.com Slash Survey.