Episode 547: Lizzie Borden and other Dark Nursery Rhymes (with Special Guests Sabrina & Corinne from Two Girls One Ghost)

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I'm Dan Taberski. In 2011, something strange began to happen at a high school in upstate New York. A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms and spreading fast. What's the answer, and what do you do if they tell you it's all in your head?

Hey weirdos, I'm ash.

I'm Elena.

I'm Corinne.

And I'm Sabrina.

And this is morbid.

Woo-bra-bra.

Or wait more appropriate boo.

Ooh, oh, we're really good ghosts. Look at us. Did you guys think spirits were among us?

I know that they are after.

Yeah, yes, we now know that spirits are very. I'm becoming more and more a true, true believer. At this point. Oh yeah, like, my skepticism is pretty much out the window.

After our night at the Lizzie Borden house, Yeah, no way.

So much happened.

So much happened, so we recently, as a foursome, stayed.

A fearsome foursome.

A fearsome foursome stayed at the Lizzie Borden bed and breakfast.

Yeah, we did again.

And we and we actually had it all to ourselves, which was horrifying.

So much scarier.

So much to ourselves that when we opened the door with the code, there was no one there to greet us. And we were like, Where are the people that work here?

We almost didn't ever ask.

Yeah.

Five hours later, we texted and we were like, Is someone here?

And they were like, Oh shit.

We forgot you were in the house tonight. And honestly, we have the ghost to thank for that, cause we wouldn't have contacted them. Unless we wanted to go to the basement, which there's the ghost for, like, go to the fucking basement.

Yeah, cause we brought, like, we had a bunch of our own, you know, ghost hunting, paranormal equipment. They give you some there if you want to do, like a little ghost hunt. And we were getting so much shit, all of our like, we were getting EVPs.

I don't think we even had 15 minutes of peace.

Of chillness, no, never.

It popped off right away.

Always on.

It kept happening and the feeling in that place is like nothing else.

It's it's. You can't describe it, but it's just like, so dark.

It hits you right away.

My favorite is when the delivery guy was dropping off dinner. Oh my God, I wish you all had seen his face.

He was like, I don't want to be here.

He was staring and I opened the door, and I think he was even more stunned that I opened the door.

And he was like, Why are you here?

I didn't say anything.

It's like the haunted house, the door creaks open.

And it's you standing there.

Are you here for me? Is that my door dash?

He's like, I have a steak and cheese, you guys want that?

Whole pork, mac and cheese.

We definitely brought snacks for the entire village.

We sure did, yes.

They were offerings.

They were, that's true, you know? When we got stressed out, we could just walk through the dining room and grab a snack real quick to calm us down. They were alone.

Never alone, though.

Never alone until that very end, not even going to the bathroom alone.

Anytime someone had to go to the bathroom, it was like everybody gather, it was a group trip.

Also, like the multiple times that I feel like we went to the bathroom, the REM pods did go off. That happened more than just once.

Yeah, you're right, that did happen.

Which is like, are they trying to scare us or were they trying to bring us back into the room?

Yeah, they're like, come back in here, what are you doing?

Yeah.

Or was it that we I just put our pants down, I don't know.

Yeah, there's also that. Or was it just that, like? We left the room so they felt more comfortable, like walking about, freely expressing themselves.

Yeah, they were like, Oh, they're gone, showing their true colors.

Well, it's like when I fell asleep in the one room and you guys left me there.

And then, okay, to be fair, we were going, we very gently-.

I was asleep. How did you tell me?

I woke you up.

Oh.

And I was like, you're in my line of sight, cause I sat at like the end, so I could still see you.

Yeah, I was like, you wanted to see where you sat?

Yeah.

The ghost did call us annoying a lot.

They did.

So much.

Called us many things and stupid, yeah, yeah.

And sluts, slutty? Yeah, they called us sluts.

Let's be real, the spirit called us sluts over and over and over.

And over and over, it's like, Okay, I get it. You're like, damn, all right, is this high school?

And just so you guys know, in case you don't know. Like, the REM pod is like this little box that has a bunch of little lights on it and a big antenna. And it's not a motion detector. Like, it's not like you walk.

Well, there are four lights that light up if there is motion, but it's like close motion, right?

Yeah.

Very, very close.

A lot of penetration.

It's not one of those.

Your hand has to be right on top of it. I guess I am a slut.

And you're like, I'm proving it right.

But there's also that middle button that kept going off, too was temperature fluctuation, so we were getting a lot of all of it. Where it was like, it suddenly got colder in the room. Setting off one alarm on the REM pod, and then all of the other four lights that would say how close something was, like in proximity, would start going off.

It was wild, like, really wild, the amount of things that happened in that house.

I mean, we were there for how long?

Like, almost 10 hours.

I think it would take probably like 10 hours for people to understand the graph, like actually for us to go through all of it.

100%.

Because we had so much activity.

It was astounding, I was actually astounded. We have a ton, a ton of recordings from it, like audio recordings, video recordings. And we're going to talk about a couple of them here, but we're going to do like an in-depth look at them.

Looking back at it, I was like, Wow, all of that happened like, in one night, yeah.

It's hard to even remember everything that happened because there was so much.

No, it's true. The next day, Drew was like, So, like, what happened? and I was like, I don't know. I was like a ghost called us sluts. That's really the best I know for you.

That was definitely a highlight that kept happening.

That's why it was the most memorable.

He would follow us around a little bit and apparently he was the like trickster of the house. The guides told us that because we had a guide, Amber, who was phenomenal.

We love Amber. She came later.

Honestly, shout out to Amber, who was in bed. And the management company was like, Oh shit, we forgot. People were staying at the house and they were supposed to get a tour. Will you go over to the house?

As if we hadn't already been investigating.

For like, five hours on our own.

She came in and she was like, Oh shit, I like you guys. She was like, there with all the equipment already ready.

Glad that she came though, because the basement we were being led to the basement and I think had we gone in there before, we wouldn't have understood that. We were dealing with something. That's a trickster spirit, and I'm worried that something scarier could have happened.

Yeah, I agree with that, because we would have been like, Oh, who is this?

Because she was pretty quick to shoot that spirit down as soon as she was around.

Yeah, she was great.

Whereas we might have inquired more and asked more questions, but who are you? we would have been tricked.

We were lured.

We were being lured down there.

Yeah, absolutely.

It was definitely him.

And they were like, super awesome after, like, they were like, super apologetic that somebody wasn't there.

Yeah, it was a great experience.

Amber was also scared because in the reservations. Remember walking up to the house when she was coming to give us? The tour management called her and just said, you need to go give a ghost tour at the house and gave her no other information. And so she walked up. And she, like, on her side of, like, the tech that they use. It didn't show that anyone had booked any room because we'd just booked the house. So she was like, what the fuck?

She was like, What am I walking into right now?

Going to give a ghost tour to the ghost Ghosts Summoning Me tonight.

And that was at like 1030. I think that she showed up like it was late night, it was late. I can't imagine having to be on call for that. No, like props to her, truly.

We love Amber.

Impromptu Ghost Hunt.

Team Amber for Life.

A fun, though, but yeah, team Amber.

But we learned a lot too. Like they give you a cool little backstory of certain things, and we got like a little more like insight into stuff. Like, they make sure to tell you, we've covered this case on the episode. When was it?

It was 2018.

2019 I think, yeah, yeah.

I think we did around that time too, yeah, but we learned so much more.

Yeah, being there.

Being there, oh, absolutely, and with the guy.

I feel like I know way more now than even when we presented the case. Oh, definitely. That's why, like, we'll probably dip back into it at some point because I have more theories now. But we covered it and again, like, I feel like I learned more this time.

And you don't feel like.

You don't feel like she is, you don't feel her.

No, her sister, I guess.

But they say they hated that house, they didn't like living there when they were there because their dad. You know, Andrew Borden, who was one of the victims.

Yeah, he made his own means.

He made his own and so like he was very frugal as an adult, because that's what he knew. Yeah, that's the only way he knew.

I do love, though, that, she said. While their spirits aren't actively there, people will hear screams because they were sisters, and it's this residual like sisterly fighting. Yes, and I love that because I know those screams like my sister and I were like that growing up.

Yeah, yeah, so you know exactly what they're hearing like that? Yeah. And their rooms are right next to each other. The way the house is set up is very like 1800s.

It's like, you have to go into Lizzie's room to get to Emma's room.

It's kind of a maze.

It is wild that they had to. The parents would like lock that door between the two rooms because Lizzie would like steal things from their room.

Yeah, she was known to be like a little Klepto. So I think they, yeah, they added a lock and sometimes they would put like a dresser in front of it.

At one point, didn't they say like, they nailed it shut?

Yeah, they said they nailed it shut at one point.

That's wild.

Yeah, it is.

They also locked their maid away each night. Remember, oh, yeah, oh, did they?

She told us that as we were going down from the attic, she showed where it locked on the outside.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Bridget Sullivan I hate that.

Thank God, there were no house fires or anything.

I know.

Seriously, that's dangerous.

Which we'll talk about, obviously on the two girls One ghost feed. We're gonna talk about that room too. Because we were in Bridget Sullivan's room and I feel like hers was very active. We got a lot of stuff.

Every room was super active.

We have something from every single room.

Truly do.

And a few things we might need to look at a blueprint of the House.

To, like, go room by room, it's so true.

Honestly.

But on this feed, we decided.

Because we were thinking about, like, you know, I can't say for certain what I think happened there, I just can't.

I think that's what's really hard about the case.

It's so hard.

There is no answer.

And there's no obvious answer, either.

And there's so many theories that it's hard to land on just one.

And I know people are very definitive. A lot of people really think she did it and they are really convinced she did it. And I totally get why. And then there are a lot of people who are 100 convinced she is innocent, and I totally get why, too. I can see 100 both of those places.

I just can't land on either.

I can't sit, neither can I. I sit right in the middle.

And we will never actually know.

Yeah, I don't think we'll like, I'm one of those people. Like with the Jack The Ripper case, we were like five episodes into that. I was like almost a hundred pages into, like a dissertation about that case.

You were driving yourself mad.

I was becoming an actual ripperologist at that point. I still could. I'm like, I'm gonna solve that case, like, and this is the same one. As soon as I go into that house and start hearing about it again, I'm like, Well, here I am.

It was impressive, too, because you started theorizing and then you started looking at like, the different things that have actually been like, recorded throughout history. And they were right, like they were lining up with your theories.

And then I get really excited when I agree, when, like, old-timey detectives agree with me, you're like, Well, don't get excited.

I'm like, Hell yeah, that guy, you totally were like an old-timey detective. In a past life, I feel like I was 100%.

I feel that in my bones.

I feel that in my bones.

The best compliment ever.

No, I think so, too.

I love that I feel, cause I love these old-timey cases. I can't get enough to speak to you.

You were the type of person that it was like, we need them on the case.

Oh, hell yeah.

You were the sought-after detective, you were, for sure, like smoking cigars.

Oh my God, I can picture that right now.

Black and white with the hat and the trench coat.

You had a monocle, just cause I want you to have one. Absolutely, I did.

For no other reason than I want that.

I didn't need it just for fashion, just for the aesthetic.

Now I want you to do a past life regression and see what cases you actually were on.

Oh my god.

We should all do one together, that'd be fun.

Oh, we should.

We've been trying to find someone to do it with.

I would love to do that.

Yeah, it's kind of hard to find.

The fearsome person. We just have to find a person to do it with. Yeah, exactly.

We'll do that.

We'll do everything with you guys. We're already like, What's our next ghost hunt? Oh yeah.

Like, this was only the beginning as far as what happened.

Pretty much.

And the four of us together, obviously, our energies trigger something.

Because you guys have.

You had already been to the Lizzie Borden house and done an overnight, and you had said that there wasn't nearly as much.

Not at all.

It was wild and heavy. We definitely had some stuff go on, we heard some things. You could see things out of the corner of your eyes, like felt stuff.

Well, and it was also storming, so it was hard to determine the lights were maybe because of that, or.

But this time, it was.

Nonstop.

I was shocked.

It was like the second we walked in with the lights, yeah, like the second we walked in.

And it just kept happening, it was relentless, yeah, the activity in that place.

This is our ghost hunting group now, I love this.

I love this hunting group, this is fun, we have to only.

Can we get jackets made? Yeah.

We're getting it, we're gonna get you ghost girl hats, Hell, yes, and then yes, we need to make jackets.

We're getting jackets, okay, it's official.

It's happening.

I look so excited.

Let's stop recording so we can figure out the jackets.

Right now, see here, we come see you guys later.

I'm Dan Taberski. In 2011, something strange began to happen at the high school in Leroy, New York.

I was like at my locker and she came up to me and she was like, stuttering, super bad. I'm like, stop around. She's like, I can't.

A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms and spreading fast.

Like doubling and tripling, and it's all these girls.

With a diagnosis, the state tried to stop the spread.

Everybody thought I was holding something back.

Well, you were holding something back intentionally.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, yeah.

Oh, it's hysteria, it's all in your head, it's not physical. Oh my gosh, you're exaggerating. Is this the largest mass hysteria since the Witches of Salem?

Leroy was the new dateline and everyone was trying to solve the murder.

A new limited series from Wondery and Pineapple Street Studios, Hysterical Follow Hysterical on the Wondery app, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of Hysterical early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus.

Okay, but we haven't told you what we're doing on this feed. We told you a lot about what we're doing on the two girls one ghost feed, but on this feed, do you wanna? Well, we decided.

Because, like, going back there, you start thinking about it, you start hearing the like, actual stuff about the case, you start. You know. They have the autopsy photos there, they have the crime scene photos there, they are gnarly.

Except for all of us.

People who think that she did it are kind of being validated by that nursery rhyme that we all have heard once or twice. Gave her mother 40 whacks. When she saw what she had done, she gave her father 41..

We used to jump rope to that when we were kids.

Did you guys do that?

Yeah, 100%.

And we figured we were like, Wow, we're gonna go into that nursery rhyme a little deeper and talk about how it is the most inaccurate thing you've ever heard. And also.

In so many ways.

In so many ways.

From the jump.

And just assuming her guilt, first of all, but all wrong. And we thought, Wow, nursery rhymes do have weird origins. Some of them are scary, some of them are dark, some of them are political.

And we figured.

Yeah, why not look back on a few nursery rhymes and see where they came from, starting with the Lizzie Borden rhyme? Yes, so Ash is gonna do a little introduction.

Yeah, I have a little intro that Dave helped me with.

A little fancy intro, yeah.

Okay, so, as early as the 14th century, and honestly, probably even before that. Adults and children have been making up and documenting songs and rhymes to share stories and basically just try to explain the world around them. Commonly referred to as nursery rhymes, these simple folk tales serve a ton of purposes, like entertainment, communication, social bonding. And they also encourage phonological awareness, which is a way that people actually learn and understand the sound and structure of words and phrases. Oh, cool, or phrases, excuse me, which I thought was cool.

That is cool.

However, like folklore and urban legend, nursery rhymes and children's songs are also a powerful means of conveying social norms, expectations and shared morality. According to Lisa Hazlett, from the University of South Dakota, nursery rhymes are a form of quote unquote hidden literacies. Their verses were powerful, subversive opinions of political, social or religious commentary regarding then contemporary events. So, essentially, she's saying that, just like slang or other types of culturally specific vernacular nursery rhymes are a way for a lot of times. Those in lower social or economic positions to criticize or talk back to their oppressors without being directly confrontational or putting themselves at risk. Which, when you think about the Lizzie Borden rhyme, it's like, you're kind of mocking her, but it's a nursery rhyme, so you know?

That was the one up on the hill, right?

Up on the hill, we actually drove by it when we left. Oh, did you? Yeah, it's beautiful.

It's kind of like impractical magic when all the kids bully. Yes, witch, witch, you're a witch.

Because they would do that to her, yeah.

And she would just like, sit in her living room with her dogs. That's so sad if she didn't do it too. Like, right, you were saying that earlier.

Yeah, like if she didn't do it, how horrific. Like your parents were murdered in your home, and then for the rest of your life, people are singing the song like you did it.

And it has this like weird, cheerful tone to it that's like, la la, la.

It's like the Freddy Krueger. Why are people so mean and nothing's changed, like people are still mean like that, like, you know, bullying and stuff?

Oh, yeah, yeah, people are ruthless.

People are ruthless. It's the dawn of time, yeah. But it was a way of constantly reminding both the local courts and the very wealthy Lizzie Borden up on that hill that no matter what the law said, they in the community knew for a fact that she was a murderer.

Which maybe not.

Nobody can be sure, nobody can be sure, maybe.

Although the one, okay. The one fact that was really strange to me that Amber had told us was that they never searched her room because she was a woman.

And it was improper.

Seemed improper, yeah.

Which that, to me, is crazy. Yeah, like they couldn't go in her room.

Well, even her throwing out some of her own like bloody clothes. They didn't investigate it because she said she was on her period. So they're like, Oh, they were like, we don't need to know about that.

We don't need to know, oh, gross, any further. Not touching that, like seasoned investigators who were literally doing a crime scene where a man's face was just gone because of a hatchet, maybe.

I can smell the scent from her room.

We won't go in there. It's like, what?

No, that's so fucked up.

This man's face was literally caved in, and you are scared of period blood on that.

Don't talk to us about that.

Yeah, they're like, that's gross.

That is wild.

It's like, What's that then? what's that in the living room? If this is gross, what's that?

They're like, that's our job.

But he's a man, Yeah, he's a man, I'm sure.

That's a man's blood.

That's cranium blood, that's cranium blood, that's a different.

It's a different kind of blood, but honestly, I think I'm gonna end up becoming like a lizzie-ologist at some point. We're gonna revisit it.

I think you might already be, Yeah, I think so. We're all invested.

So I think maybe if you guys are down at some point, we might do an in-depth look back at it.

Are you gonna write your own dissertation?

Another dissertation is coming your way.

Honestly, this is one I could get down with because I remember hearing about this since, like, third grade, and just like wanting to know the truth.

And obviously we did the episode, we did one at the Lizzie Borden House years ago, obviously, which was so scary. But we didn't go as in-depth as I think I can now. So uh-oh, everybody.

That was at a different time.

Strap in, it's happening.

But right now, I'll just give you a quick little overview. I'm gonna give you a look at the rhyme and I'm gonna tell you why the rhyme is wrong. And then, because I can't stop there ever, and brevity is not my strong suit, never has been. I have to talk to you about the autopsy.

I'm excited for this, cause that's the perspective that none of us have the skillset to understand. And you do.

It's very interesting, it's an interesting one, for sure. So, as you guys know, Andrew and Abby Borden were killed in their home in Fall River, Massachusetts, on August 4th, 1892. Again, this is huge Massachusetts crime, the fact that it happened like, right, right in Massachusetts.

You go north, you get Salem and the Witches, exactly, you go south, you get Lizzie Borden and her ass.

So true.

We just are like, we're really focused on these things. But, like Ash said, a lot of people believe that Andrew and Abby Borden's daughter Lizzie is the culprit. But she was acquitted, have to keep saying it, she was acquitted. So we're going back to the.

Also, imagine sheltering your children forever. And that's the first Hudson thing. They find, like, you're like, This is exactly what I didn't want. I'm like, you know what?

Maybe let them read the newspaper now, Yeah, maybe they wouldn't see.

Cause maybe they'll have the real story at this point.

I also think it's it comments on our society. And like the way that it started with 20 whacks to 40 of the way that we love to exaggerate and dramatize things over time.

And things that are already horrific in and of themselves and do not need to be made worse. Like she hatched it in her father's face, so no matter how many times that's allegedly, she did that.

Somebody got Andrew Borden.

No matter how many times that happened, it's brutal. Like we don't need to up the ante there.

And that's the thing, so the first thing that I can think of that's wrong about this is. Andrew Borden was killed while taking a nap on the couch in the front sitting room, and he was struck with what they believe is a hatchet 11 times.

But Elena doesn't know, guys.

We're not sure if it's a hatchet, They think it was a hatchet, they think it matched a hatchet. They found the like head of a hat, like a, I think a handleless hatchet, on the property, but they could never determine it was actually the one. But there are thoughts that it could have been something else, maybe an iron flat.

And we were talking about how much we love those.

And it's connected, that room is connected to the kitchen. So that is a thought. And who knows, because, again, autopsies weren't like top notch back then.

Also, we should note that autopsies took place in the house.

In the dining room.

Literally in the dining room.

Where we spent a lot of our night.

Yeah, on the dining room table.

Yeah.

Where all our snacks were.

Was the autopsy table that was hanging up on display? was that the actual one used?

It wasn't the one that was actually used in this case. But it is an antique, it's not a replica, it's an antique autopsy table, like it was used for autopsies.

Performed on their bodies.

Yeah, but not the Borden's for that one, but that is the actual room that it happened in. But Abby Borden was killed in the guest bedroom, right up at the top of the stairs, and she was struck 18 times with a hatchet.

Wasn't the uncle staying in that room at that?

Like, during that time.

He was.

That is the John Morse room, right?

Yeah, she was changing the linens.

Yeah, they believe she was. There's also, like, a thought that I think, Lizzie said. At one point. When they asked where Abby could have been, she was like, she was probably sewing and there's a sewing machine in there. So there was, like, all these theories, was she sitting down when it happened? I don't think so.

And we didn't know any of the closet stuff before.

Yeah, I didn't know that that was a possibility, and when I found that out, I was like, why in that room would that word come out?

Because it didn't happen again, or before that, in any other room.

Nope, not the word closet.

I mean, that was like every haunting we experienced was so specific to what has happened in the house, what is alleged to have happened and the types of ghosts that are said to be in those rooms. And I feel like, I mean, I said this to you when we got to the house. Like, Corinne and I both decided we're not gonna re-listen to the episode that we did about Lizzie Borden because we just didn't want any information.

Yeah, we didn't want to be influenced.

No, definitely not.

So the fact that none of us, maybe in the past, we had had that knowledge, but that it was just like.

Yeah, that's what the closet thing really shook me, like, that's a weird word to just be said. In that room. And it was like, a minute after we got in that room, too, it was like we were in that room. We settled for a second and then it was like, closet.

Well, and those words were not repeated at all throughout the night in any other room.

First and only time that that was said. And it's like, when I found out that they think someone was hiding in the closet, it's like, why would that be said? That's so much of a coincidence if that's the case.

And there's so many other EVPs that will like, visit on you guys feed that. Why would that be said in that room, exactly?

Like the kids and everything.

I can't wait to talk about that.

When we get into the kids guys, that's on another level. John's like a my husband is like a super like. He's open-minded with that stuff, but he's a skeptic, like he wants to debunk it immediately, and he doesn't. He like, he can't stand. Like any ghost shows or anything like on TV, where like, they're hunting ghosts, he's always like, I don't know.

Sometimes I feel like that, too.

I do, too, sometimes.

And I fully believe in the paranormal, exactly. And when I watch those shows, I'm like, it's hard, you're like, but it's TV.

They need to entertain people.

Exactly so. He's always kind of like, eh? So when I came home and I showed him the video of the kids room and some of the things that happened there. He was like, I have the chills, like, he was like, I can't explain that.

Because he gets the uncut version, he gets to watch the 16 minutes of us sitting there asking questions and the like awkward 45 seconds of silence waiting for a response.

And then, seeing that they, like, fully responded to us while we were talking there. He was like, I can't argue against that, like, that's a wild one.

Yeah, each room was, and what happened in each room, what came through on the spirit boxes and all of the devices were very specific. The messaging, yeah.

Very much, and that closet thing, I just we started, and the word strangled came out in that room too.

Yeah, that was in like the actual like spirit box that we were using.

Yeah, so we kind of, so Ash and I were sitting here and we were like trying to, like, theorize around a strangulation. Possibly because that's not anywhere really like when you find like that, some people have mentioned it here or there, it's really not a thing like that. She was strangled or anything like that. So I started, I was like, you know what?

Yeah.

And she didn't stop herself using her hands because she had been hit in the head and incapacitated. And just flat on the ground, you know? But or maybe she fell forward and then was hit and it was like the force of the wax, like her face into the ground, that kind of thing.

Or, I mean, this is a really aggressive theory. But like, what if someone did grab her from the back of her neck and just slam her?

Exactly possibly yeah, or possibly, like you said, grabbed her from the back of the neck and slammed her into the wall, even in front of her, into the bureau next to her, there's a bureau next to her.

She was in the heavy duty piece of the furniture. Oh yeah, you smacked your face into those.

That's solid wood, there was no wood veneer.

No, it's not from IKea.

It's heavy, no, very solid, and these were two like. The contusion on her forehead was on the left side of like, above her eyebrow, and on the left side of her forehead. And the bureau, if she was facing the wall, which is where she was found, is to her left. If they took her and slammed her into that dresser to first like, incapacitate her.

And I just gotta get this in.

Wasn't even as hard as it could have possibly been, because it's a glancing scalp wound. It was like two inches long, one and a half inches wide, and it was struck about three inches above her left ear hole. So that was interesting to me because it was said to be done in a downwards motion that did not penetrate the skull, so it just didn't go through the skull. Just a glancing scalp wound about three inches up from her ear hole, which is near your temple.

Does that mean someone was taller than her, too?

That was my thought. Because if you look at Lizzie, Lizzie is like, five foot three, five foot four is what she's thought to have been. And Abby is five foot three. So they're about the same height.

I mean, I guess you could raise your.

You could definitely raise above for sure.

But she was also the first one killed in the house. And so that sort of thing where you try to hit but you miss. That, to me, indicates there was still a lot of, like, adrenaline and nervousness yelding up, too.

Especially if they're waiting in the closet for a long time.

And then you're just bursting out and you gotta do it before she can scream because Bridget Sullivan is outside washing windows. With all this is happening, so you need to do this quick and you need to incapacitate someone quick. So again, not hard enough to penetrate the skull, but a decent wound. And the temple area, which if you're hitting the temple, you're gonna be dazed and startled.

And doesn't that bleed a ton, too?

It bleeds a ton because there's a lot of like stuff going on in there. But interestingly, though, it was her left side, which to me, would seem to indicate a left-handed person. Because if you're walking up behind her, you're not gonna reach across your body to whack her in the left side. So-.

That'd just be so awkward.

Yeah, it would just be an awkward thing. And it would add extra seconds to what you're doing to your cross body and you're not getting a good whack.

Yeah, you don't have nearly as much control.

You don't have near, and then it's like, but if it was a glancing skull wound, was it a right-handed person? And they didn't have a lot of control, so they hit it not that hard.

But also, we have to remember that people were forced into learning to be right-handed. So perhaps it was someone who, to the public and in school, were right-handed, but naturally, to them, using their left-handed.

Exactly.

Or their left hand?

Because people point to the fact that Lizzie was right-handed.

But maybe in school she was.

Nothing says that she was not ambidextrous and was just taught to be right-handed. We don't know either way, right? So it could have been either way, but then we were thinking, okay, that would happen if you were coming from behind.

Which she did right.

Well, we don't know if she fell to her knees, she landed that way.

She ended up falling to her knees that way.

But I don't know if she just fell like crumpled into that position because also they moved her to take pictures. So like, those are even a little bit like Harry.

I forgot that they had moved them.

They said that she was found with her knees up a little bit, but that's like, you know, we can only go by so much. But she would have had to have fallen to her knees if this was Lizzie. Because of the height, I don't think she would be able to get a good whack to the full top of her skull. And it wasn't done with her lying on the ground, cause you're not. if she's lying on the ground, then her head is a little down.

Here's a question, and I wonder if this lines. So we heard the closet startled, What if Abby was going to put away linens or to open that closet door and then got startled? That first scrape, that kind of hit on the odd side of the head where we're like, that person would have to be left-handed.

That absolutely could have happened.

Yeah, that definitely could have, but that does make sense.

Do they have imagery of like blood spatter elsewhere?

I was just thinking that that's an interesting thing, so they don't. It seems like it all happened.

In that one spot.

In that corner, but also the blood spatter is strange. It's like it doesn't seem like it was enough, almost like it's like.

So some could have been washed.

A lot of it probably got on the person, okay, to be honest. And especially when you get to, like, we're gonna get to a point where it does penetrate through the skull. In the autopsy report, the piece is due.

And it's gonna make a lot come out.

So it's gonna spray a lot. And it did stay in that little corner, so I think the majority of it happened in that corner. But it's just that thing of like, she definitely hadn't fallen down yet when that second hit happened, all the way at least.

So it's either someone who was taller, or, if it was Lizzie, she had to have been on her knees.

Which kind of, like, works a little bit both ways, because it's like, at first you're like, okay, well, because they're the same height-ish a little bit, it's less likely to be lizzie because they were able to do that. But then if she fell on her knees, it makes sense that she was found with her knees up a little bit. Which kind of leads me to believe that she went down on her knees first. And then kind of was whacked down more because to get 18 whacks and a lot of them on the top of the head. It was before you fell, and I don't think you were standing that whole time.

You're not doing like a spin.

No, you're not gonna turn and try to run into the wall, like you're gonna try to run out the door, yeah.

She struck him with her motor vehicle, she had been under the influence, and then she left him there. In January 2022, local woman Karen Reed was implicated in the mysterious death of her boyfriend, Boston Police Officer John O'Keefe. It was alleged that after an innocent night out for drinks with friends, Karen and John got into a lover's quarrel en route to the next location. What happens next depends on who you ask.

But there's a surprise little thing in that autopsy report. Because before the head wounds, so before that head wound on the left side of her skull, before even the one above that. She was struck in the back first, which kind of confirms the turned around. Because it was somewhere above her spine, in between the junction, where, like, her neck and her body kind of meet.

And what I hate about this so much is that I'm picturing someone coming out of the closet, making eye contact with Abby. Abby's already in that spot and doesn't really know what to do. She's got nowhere to go. And that the person is just coming around and trying to, like, almost hook her with the ax to prevent her from being able to get away because she wasn't cornered.

The only thing?

What if she didn't? I kind of hope she didn't see it coming. Like, if it didn't make eye contact. And also isn't there like a place in your spine, you would know if, like, where it's hit, and it kind of severs your ability to feel things.

It kind of like C5, it's stay alive is what it is.

Like, I hope that that's.

If they hit it in that one spot.

It's in the vein of everything else.

I think, unfortunately, this was like a little superficial, but I would love to believe that too. But this is basically one of those things that just kind of tells us a little more about. Like the fact that she was facing the wall when this happened. Which means either this person, like, ran out of the closet up on her, or they might've like, snuck on her. Like, if she was bent down or getting something out of a drawer facing the bureau. And they just kind of, like, creeped up behind her and then whack or. And this is going in the direction of. If it was Lizzie, she wouldn't have cared if Lizzie walked in the room.

So if Lizzie walked up on her?

She just went about her business if she was being like, Oh, Abby, blah, blah, blah and then whoop like you're.

I think she called her mother Borden.

Mother Borden.

No, no, no, Mrs Borden.

Mrs Borden She was her stepmother, she wasn't her mother, she wasn't her stepmother.

And she didn't like her.

Yeah, they didn't get along.

Which leaning toward if Lizzie did it, Abby got hit a lot more.

She sure did than the father did. She sure did 18 to 11, so that's a lot. There's that.

That I buy Lizzie doing it is the whole theory of, like, her father's abuse and all of that, and her being pushed to a place where she had to defend herself. So in that, but in that regard, it's like, wouldn't he then have more injuries?

You would think that's the thing.

Well, I was reading while you were reading all the autopsy reports, I was just reading different theories. And I guess there's not a lot of evidence that he was abusive toward her.

Yeah, I think it's just like.

It's kind of a rumor.

It's kind of like gossip.

Yeah.

Probably to try and justify why someone would do that.

Yeah, and actually, a lot of people say that she was his favorite daughter. And she was actually treated a lot better than Emma was. And he, like, gave into her requests a lot more than he gave into Emma's, yeah.

I will say, though, with Abby getting more wax, it was the first crime out of the two. So you're less tired.

You gotta make sure.

Yeah, and also it's just like the.

You need to make sure that it's done right before you can get to them at all.

It's kind of like, when people are repeat offenders and repeat killers, oftentimes their earlier crimes are the ones that will get them caught. Because they're the messiest.

Yeah, it's true. And they need, and if they had the idea I need to eliminate these two people, then I need to make sure this is done. Yeah, I can't leave any kind of possibility that this wasn't done before I move on to the next one.

Right, you can take a little more time with Andrew.

And especially if Andrew was out of the house in town while this was happening, they could have.

Which they had a little more time. There is rumors that he was.

Yeah, and then they waited for him to come in and fall asleep.

And it makes sense because there's no way that he could have. I think even if he was sleeping, he would have been woken up by this sound, she would have.

Right?

Not necessarily that she would have screamed, because maybe she didn't, but I think just the sound of like, repeated like.

Because they're close, those rooms are not far away.

Yeah, they said, I think it was Bridget and somebody else, I'm not sure who was with her, who discovered Abby's body. And they only made it halfway up the stairs before they saw. Yeah, it was right there, because it's that room right at the top of the stairs.

It's literally right there, you would definitely hear something, yeah.

And it's an old home, like you would hear someone thump to the floor.

And not only is it an old home, there was no electricity, no water, no nothing, so it's even quieter than a regular house.

Yeah, you can't blame it on anything else.

Yeah, exactly. And going back to how the word strangulation was said in the room when we were there. I was trying to think of any way that this would work. And the only thing I can think of is, could she have been placed in a headlock at any point during this? And then the person kind of struck down at her?

That's kind of what I thought.