BONUS: The Jan. 6 Indictment Drops

Welcome to Pod Save America, I'm Jon Favreau.

I'm unindicted. Co-conspirator Jon Lovett.

There he is, I'm Tommy Vitor.

We have a bonus episode for you because Donald Trump has been indicted yet again, and this is the big one. He has been charged with four counts of conspiracy to defraud the United States, conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding, obstruction of an attempt to obstruct an official proceeding, and conspiracy against rights. This is all related to his plot to overturn the 2020 election that began shortly after the election and went right through to January 6th. When there was an attack on the Capitol, there were six unindicted co-conspirators in this indictment from Jack Smith.

You've last seen him being outside of his home while a search warrant was being conducted and he was in his boxers, correct?

Number five is Kenneth Cheesebro.

Great name.

Great name. He's bringing that character back from the January 6th hearings and then unindicted. Co-conspirator number six is an advisor to Trump that has not been identified yet. It's a mystery.

That's too good to be true.

I know too good to be true.

I can't help but picture the Hamburglar, that's who I picture on the list of faces it works.

So, the judge that Trump will appear before on this Thursday at 4 p.

The attack on our nation's capital on January 6th, 2021, was an unprecedented assault on the seat of American democracy. As described in the indictment, it was fueled by lies, lies by the defendant. Targeted at obstructing a bedrock function of the U...S government, the nation's process of collecting, counting, and certifying the results of the presidential election.

All right, so we have a 45 page indictment that we have all combed through. Got our highlighters here. You guys have some initial reactions to this, and I want to just dive into some of the highlights if you will.

Yeah, I mean, it's worth just noting on balance, we knew a lot of this thanks to the January 6 hearings. There's not a ton of new sort of explosive facts.

Yeah, I think there's a lot of detail. There's a lot more detail than we've had before about the machinations inside of the conspiracy between Trump and these lawyers and these campaign officials. And a level of detail and evidence that we haven't seen before.

Lots of Mike Pence.

Lots of Mike Pence notes in this. And you know, this was, I think, the biggest and most important indictment. It was also the one I think that we didn't. That felt like, you know, the documents case. It's simple, he stole these documents, he didn't give them back.

It is a compelling document. I mean, it's interesting. It was interesting to me how many times Jack Smith feels the need in this indictment to prove that Donald Trump knew that he had lost the election, that he knew he was lying. And even at the beginning, he sort of lays out in the opening of the indictment, he says. The defendant had a right, like every American, to speak publicly about the election. And even to claim falsely that there had been fraud and that he had won.

So he, you know, and we should know that the conspiracy against rights probably sounds a little vague. It's conspiracy against the right to vote and to have one's vote counted. So, like Lovett was saying, like a bedrock American principle of our democracy.

Yeah, and you've, you know, there has been reporting about this ever since. This statute was mentioned in the target letter a week or so ago that this was a statute that was used to prosecute the KKK. And so it was the civil rights, civil rights in this case, in the sense that we all have the right to vote and to have our vote counted. And so that's, that's the connection there. But it was interesting to me just how much this case rests upon proving that Donald Trump knew he was lying and knew that he had lost the election.

Yeah, there's two runs of, there's two runs of proof points. One of all the different people that told Trump that the claims were false. There's also a run of Donald Trump specifically using basically verbatim claims of fraud that he had been specifically been instructed weren't true. And yes, this is, I think in this document, it is Jack Smith and the Department of Justice saying he knew these claims were false. But you also don't need. Nobody is going to be able to hear, even if Donald Trump continues to claim. Well, that's what these people told me.

So the people who told him, in sort of formal briefings and settings that there was no mass election fraud. Include Mike Pence, top DOJ leaders, the director of National Intelligence, the head of the Department of Homeland Security, senior White House attorneys that were selected by Trump to be in those positions. And then there's an interesting anecdote where you know he knows they're right, because there is a National Security Council meeting on January 3rd. Something happened overseas that they're briefing him on. And the chairman of the Joint Chiefs says to Trump, Let's not take action on whatever this thing is. Because the inauguration is 17 days away. And Trump agrees, and he says, Yeah, you're right.

I think the other this is so. There's a couple of new parts of the indictment. Tommy's right that most of it thanks to the January 6th committee, we already know about the new parts in the indictment are. One is the fact that Mike Pence kept a journal, Dear Diary. And they have these conversations between Trump and Pence, and at one point, Pence says to Trump, Point blank. This is on page 33. For those following, Pence says there is no constitutional basis for him to overturn the election. I love this.

Mike, you're too honest.

And you know, I just noticed before we came in here on Twitter, like the AP, stories lead with that line. Because that is, if that's not evidence that. Trump knew he was full of shit and knew he hadn't won the election and was still telling the vice president to do something illegal. I mean, I don't know what it is.

One of my favorite moments in the document is on December 25th, when the vice president called the defendant to wish him a merry Christmas. The defendant quickly turned the conversation to January 6th and his request that the vice president reject electoral votes that day. The vice president pushed back, telling the defendant, as the vice president had already had in previous conversations. You know, I don't think I have the authority to change the outcome. It was. He's just doing. On Christmas, Pence is calling him, calling the boss to wish him a merry Christmas. He heard the good news, and then he just gets fucking broadsided through Christmas.

It was also readily apparent, reading this, how comfortable a lot of senior Trump aides were with the prospect of violence. Deputy White House counsel tells Jeff Clark that there hadn't been determined fraud that would change the outcome and that. But that if Trump stayed in office anyway, there would quote, be riots in every major city in the United States. To which Jeff Clark responded Well, that's why there's an insurrection act. So they're ready to beat the shit out of us if we all protest.

The plan was to stage a coup and then use the U.S. military to put down any protest by force. That was the plan.

And then another advisor told John Eastman You're going to cause riots in the streets, and Eastman responded that. There had previously been points in the nation's history where violence was necessary to protect the republic.

Because we read this and we were all like, you know, Jeff Clark should be in jail, these people should all be in jail, right? They were not indicted. And I think the biggest surprise, and what people are talking about right now is like, what's going on with the unindicted co-conspirators? There are? We don't know, is the short answer, but there are a few theories.

It also could be a combination that he wants to turn. Some of them, use some of them.

And I also think that the other important point here is naming. So. Four of the six unindicted co-conspirators are lawyers. Jeffrey Clark was a Justice Department official, so naming these lawyers as co-conspirators, even if they're unindicted, really hurts. Trump's advice of counsel defense, which they have previewed, that that's going to be their defense.

Yeah, they're all referred to as attorneys. And you just feel in this indictment the dripping fury and disdain the Department of Justice has for Eastman, for Clark, for Rudy Giuliani, for Powell. One question I think we've talked about at length is how sophisticated was this operation? how bumbling was it? how much was this?

They're very dumb about putting in writing their knowledge of the fact that they're lying. John Eastman emails the vice President's counsel. The vice president's not going along with all this. His staff is pissed about it, he says. I implore you to consider one more relatively minor violation and adjourn for 10 days to allow the legislatures to finish their investigations. Blah, blah, blah, blah.

One more violation of the Electoral Count Act of 1887.

A law? He's emailing him, requesting a minor violation of the law. Also, John Eastman wrote on August, I'm sorry. October 11th that neither the Constitution nor the Electoral Count Act provided the Vice president discretion in the counting of electoral votes or permitted him to make the determination on his own. So, right before he launched this scheme to get Pence to overturn the election, he had written that Pence didn't have the authority.

He also, he acknowledged to the vice president's counsel, the same person that he sent that email to. That he hoped to prevent judicial review of this because he understood that what they were doing would be quote unanimously rejected by the Supreme Court. That's a lot more faith in the Supreme Court than I have for the unanimous ruling.

I think he's on my seven, too.

I will say, too, that John Eastman email Tommy, which said, I implore you to consider one more relatively minor violation of the law of the law. Came at 1144 p.m. on January 6th. This is at night.

There's a moment during the Um, uh, where the campaign officials are saying to Rudy, Here's the thing. The way this has morphed. It's a crazy play. So I don't know who wants to put their name on it. And that city advisor called it, and this is a quote certifying illegal votes.

Yeah.

Like, they are referring to, and back to, you know what Trump knew and everything I do think we did. We heard this during the, uh, this came out during the January 6th committee hearings. But um, they have Trump saying that Sidney Powell's, uh, dominion voting machine claims were quote crazy.

Yeah, and also, you know, uh, who's number two again? Uh? John Eastman is calling officials in Arizona, Uh, and being told by the Arizona House Speaker that the state had investigated. Uh, that the state had investigated these allegations and uncovered no evidence of substantial fraud in the state, Eastman says. Look, I don't know enough about facts on the ground, but, you know, decertify.

These knowingly advancing these lies, which is similar to the line that we've all heard from Trump. That I still think is one of the most damning lines of all. Which is, uh, just say the election to to to Jeffrey Clark, to the to the Justice Department, just say the election was corrupt and leave the rest to me and the Republican Congress.

Yeah, what? What really comes through, and some of it we've known, I think some of it we're getting. More detail is the people that are saying no to this, and I think the people that are clearly being interviewed as part of this. These are Trump voters, these are Trump supporters and Republicans. You have in Arizona, in Georgia, in Michigan, and you have these extraordinary comments from them, basically saying, I voted for Trump, I wanted him to win.

And by the way, of course, it was more and less sophisticated than we thought.

It was more and less sophisticated than we thought, but I do think it was more concerted than we realized, and it was more coordinated than we realized. That's what this indictment makes clear, and the reason it didn't succeed is not for lack of effort. It didn't succeed because at the time, there were just enough people, with just enough scruples left to stand in this group of conspiracists way.

It does highlight the amount of pressure that was put on Mike Pence. Because, because, you know, I think sometimes we assume Trump has kind of, like, a public facing demeanor and he lies and is full of shit. You kind of assume that he's in on the joke and tells the truth. Behind the scenes, No, he was, like, in the vice president's face as late as December 29th, saying that the Justice Department was finding major fraud and infractions. Like Pence knew that was a lie, everyone had been briefed on the fact that that was a lie.

So, yeah, it's interesting that he went into it. Yeah, it was his line when he said that line when he announced for office. But I'm glad that he did not go to the sort of weasely. I don't know if we should criminalize, you know, I think....

Here it's in context of this indictment.

Right, well, I know, but I saw that statement. But I think what he decided was it's not on me to judge the legality of what the jury is going to do. The guy shouldn't be president again, and that's enough, which, you know, is fine.

There's one other meeting where Trump and Eastman, and Pence and Pence's chief of staff and counsel are all meeting. And basically, there was a sort of other proposal that was being floated that Pence has the ability to send the fake electors back to the states. And there's a moment where Pence is like, Who says, I can do that? And Eastman says, Well, it's, you know, it's never been tried before, basically. And Pence says to Trump, Did you hear that?

The other suggestion, yeah.

Where he just overturns the election and certifies Trump.

So pretty damning, pretty serious. You guys have any questions you're looking forward to being answered in the coming days? On this one? I'm kind of interested in the timing and whether they think that they can actually get a full trial in before the election on this one.

Yeah, I'm curious about, like, look, we're all learning these terms like speaking indictment and how much prosecutors decide to put or not put in these indictments. I'm curious to see how much evidence was withheld here. We don't really know that.

Yeah, and you know, we talked about what's going on with the unindicted co-conspirators. Jack Smith did have one line in his very brief statement, where he said investigations of various individuals are ongoing. So, you know, we could expect we could see more indictments on this.

This is, this is, this is. I mean, definitely doesn't read, though, that, like Rudy and Eastman and Clark were just dragged along. They're written like people that at least Jack Smith would love to throw in fucking prison.

Oh, I mean, I think that it's more, it's, it's more damning for them than even Trump, and the way the indictment reads. For some of the stuff that Jeffrey Clark said about the insurrection, I mean, we all the stuff that we read, I think it's Eastman and Clark seemed like very criminal what they did.

Yeah, that the the the part where that's when I was sort of interested in, the part where you see the evolution of the plan. From just having backup electors to becoming a crazy plan to overturn the election. Because that is five, uh, Mr. she's bro, and, uh, that he, he gets the least, uh, he gets sort of the least damning um attention throughout this as the six. And you know, you have to. You have to wonder, like, man, Rudy is dead to rights in this thing.

Yeah, I mean, you know, to your point, love like Rudy, look, there was like, Post Nine 11, Hey geography, Rudy, wherever America's mayor of that whole bullshit, but like that image of Rudy, I think, is long gone. He's been a clown for a long time, so I wasn't surprised to read his comments in this.

Even call him a mastermind of this, of this effort. I mean, it was really like, you're right, Rudy, Rudy just goes off the cuff. But like, he's thought it out, he's thought it out, he knows it's illegal, and he just, he's been pushing the whole time.

Well, no, they're going to have to, they're going to have those medals of freedom hanging around their necks.

I mean, it's like, this is, you know what? I don't know what other case you need to make to voters. Then, hey, uh, all this shit that happened them threatening that, uh? If Donald Trump doesn't get to stay in power for as long as he likes. They're going to use the Insurrection Act to get the military to put down any protests. That's going to be our future. If you elect this guy as president again, well, not. If he wins well, then what happens?

The uh, there's also one part in this where, uh, you told me at this point before it recorded that, um, Sidney Powell's texts are as bonkers as her personality. They're just half caps, half lowercase, one sentence in the same sentence.

There's this like a it's a run of all caps text, followed by a normal um but. But John on the political question, Um, you know, this indictment and all the news reports around it could certainly change the context. There was some polling is there's a you go poll back in January, where you know, you had pretty strong majorities of of American voters. Saying Trump bore responsibility for January Six. When you asked about, uh, whether they approved of Congress, referring Trump to, Uh, for a, it got a lot more partisan. It was 45 to 37 Americans approved of referring him to DOJ for criminal indictments. So we'll see if that more partisan split sticks once now that he's actually indicted.

The uh, yeah, the one, the one set of numbers that stuck out to me I think I was reading last night is, uh, you know, you want to go, like you said. It breaks down along partisan lines, and the question is, what independents do you know? or what about how to independency this? And mostly they're sort of split on, you know, whether it was a crime, all that kind of stuff. But if you ask the question if Donald Trump is convicted of a crime, should he be able to serve as president? It's like, like, 75 of independents don't think he should.

Yeah, I also the point that Jackson makes the point when he gave the statement that he wants a speedy trial. That's a. That's a message also to the judge. This judge, as you pointed out, is not Eileen Cannon.

And she's the she's the complete opposite, she's bizarro. Eileen Cannon.

Is this going to affect Trump's poll numbers? He may die in prison because of this.

That's why he's running this, running so hard for president.

Some things, some things don't end up being on the margins, we'll see. But man, this is, um, you read this, you're like, I, I finally can see it. Now I see the end.

If you think to yourself, maybe he's a little more disciplined in his run for president this time, it's so he can stay out of jail. Yeah, he knows there's a lot more at stake right now.

He's got a lot of legal bills to pay, it's going to, it's probably hurting.

All right, well, that's our bonus episode, we'll we'll come back with another bonus. If there's more indictments, I think let's see. We had 74 felony counts yesterday on the pod we talked about, so now we're up to 78 78 felony counts.

I was reading, I was reading this indictment.

Is he 70?

78.

He's got, he's got a felony, one for every year, Donald Trump, 78 years old, 78 felony, counts.

I was reading this indictment and all of a sudden I was like, Wait, this is confusing this is. And I realized, Oh, I accidentally turned into the other indictment. Oh, there was two printed on the page, there was too many, too many indictments on my desk.

Too many indictments.

All right.

We'll talk to you on Thursday, everyone.