“Depeche Mode”

You know what I started doing during the day is watching Deal or No Deal. Remember that show?

Deal or No Deal. Is that the one where it's like a Plinko machine?

Open the cases.

No, Sean, remind me what happened. So the libraries all ran out of books, and so you found yourself with a few extra hours to start watching the tapes.

No, like I'll have a-.

This is the suitcase one. So this is on a game show network or something?

Yes, it's on a game show network. That's exactly right. Right.

So you're just crushing great ideas during the day and then doing theater at night?

No, I can't text and type because I want to save my hands, because I play piano on the show. And so I watched some games while I had my breakfast. So I watched Deal or No Deal. Remember that show?

Yeah, of course. What does breakfast look like these days, right now, when you're in production?

Let me guess.

Jason, go first.

It's Eggs Benedict, because that's a breakfast with a sauce. There needs to be a sauce on every meal.

Okay, let me have a guess.

Cut in half like a bagel?

Yeah.

By the way, that sounds amazing.

And the sausage is just loose, good in plenties, you know, to look at licorice.

Yeah, at a restaurant, instead of like that pepper grinder, they go, good in plenties, and they just squeeze it out.

Sean, remember that huge, Sean, remember that photo of you and me and Scotty with that huge pepper grinder? We were in Istanbul and the guy came up, you know, they come over and they go like, would you like some pepper?

I can't hear about the European vacations anymore with you guys.

That was only, that was the second European trip. we did. So anyway, so Sean and I are there and the guy comes up, you know, they come up and go,

who was your date, Will?

Who was my date? Well, it doesn't matter.

I could have been your date.

Um, we don't need to get into, every time we mentioned somebody now in the podcast, that person's like, I got 30 phone calls.

I know.

They're like, so, so anyway, you know, the guy comes up and they go, you want some fresh pepper? And they go, yeah, let's get some fresh pepper.

Give us a Turkish accent, Will.

And this guy, no. And this guy, um, you think I wouldn't have to write a fucking, your mystery guest is.

laughing notes.

Apology that I got to post.

Mike is hot. It's a male.

I got to post on my Instagram, a notes apology because you prompted me to do an accident. I'm not a fan of the guy who was my server in Istanbul. No, thank you. So, anyway.

Stop reading that.

He goes, would you like some pepper? And I'm not, Sean, tell him, right, I'm not exaggerating. The pepper shaker was four feet long.

And two guys came out to hold it.

And two guys to hold it.

Yeah. It sounds like my, my, my, my, my big bong years back, in my early twenties.

Yeah. That used to be on my dating profile. Takes two guys to hold it. Listen, I have a, all right, so listen.

Your guest is still laughing. I love it.

That's a good sign.

It's a good sign.

Wait, I, but you guys, I texted you when, like one of those comments, did I text you both, though? The comment was like a week ago and somebody wrote about my show. No. They said, didn't. I?

The fat suit.

They, um, yeah. Another fucking fat suit. Thanks.

Wait, what? Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Somebody made a comment that Sean Hayes is wearing a fat suit in his theater.

No, somebody asked me on my Instagram or somewhere, Twitter, I don't remember. And it was Sean, did they, um, is that, is the outfit that they put you in, supposed to make you look bigger, which is, you know, code for fatter, right? And it's just, I'm just fucking fat.

And tell him what your friend said. You should say no. It's supposed to make me look thinner. Why? By the way, Sean, it reminded me, I was watching, I was, I was thinking about your dating profile, reminded me I was watching alone, uh, that show, right?

Hey bear.

What's up bear?

No, well, you know, a shameless plug here, you know, you have your new show. Yeah. Have you not watched Outlast yet?

No, I want to see that.

I haven't seen it yet. I don't have, I know. I'm going to watch it.

Sean, sounds like you've got time on your hands. Maybe, instead of, no, no, no, no.

Are you kidding? Dude, there's 11 seasons of deal or no deal.

What was for breakfast, by the way?

Um, I had yesterday. I had, uh, uh, egg cheese. We don't need the full week, cheese, egg, and a cheese, egg and bacon, uh, bagel. And then today I, I did good. I did yogurt with grape nuts and blueberries and a banana and a little bit of a candy bar.

God, there's, wait, was the candy bar like a fun dip for the, for the yogurt?

No.

You call that the equalizer, right? Just to cancel out everything else. Time for the equalizer.

Half of a payday.

Hey, listen, you want to talk about a payday? Our guests, segue, segue, segue.

Our guests. Let me just say this. They've sold more than a hundred million records worldwide, 54 songs in the UK singles chart, 17 top 10 albums in the UK chart. If I name a song you're going to, I don't know. You're going to immediately guess.

This is fucking crazy. A real booking.

This is a legit booking.

Crazy.

This is like... Ready? Can I go?

Hang on. Dave and Martin, you should know. Nice to meet you, both of you, gentlemen.

This is unbelievable.

Such an honor.

Thank you. Pleasure. It is huge. Thank you.

Sean and I, when I knew that, and we've been sort of trying to work this out to get you guys on here. And Sean and I talk about you guys all the time. And we talk about your music and we talk about your songs. And about... Sean, do you remember about a month ago when we were talking about you guys and we were going to...

Oh, my God. You guys, I'm freaking out. I have 17,000 things to say to you.

We've got time, Sean. We've got nothing but time, actually.

You said we have nothing but time. Of course, they immediately go, it's just a question of time. Right? I know every word to every song. Every word to every song.

Martin... I've never seen Sean...

Sean is not excited.

This is... I'm freaking out. So, Martin, you came to a taping of Will & Grace.

That is true. I did.

Yes. And when...

What if he didn't remember that?

I've been trying to keep that quiet for years. This is massive fun.

That's news to Dave. I love it.

So, wait. So, you came to a taping of Will & Grace. And somebody whispered in my ear, you're Martin Gores in the audience. I'm like, what are you talking about, Martin Gores in the audience? He's...

Wait.

Wait for it. We'll cut out the last part. Because this is what I used to do in college.

Here it comes.

This is it. This is coming up.

Here we go.

Here we go. This is it.

You're taking off the glasses.

This is...

Uh-oh.

Because I sound like a bug.

I've never thought of that as sounding like a bug. But now that you have given me that visual, when we perform that song every night, I will be thinking of you.

Time to reshoot the video.

So, Dave and Martin, how do you guys respond to... Sean Hayes has just boiled your music down to sounding like a bug.

Oh, my God. This is unbelievable.

Guys, so we... Again, like, you, know, not to belabor it, but we talk about you guys all the time, such massive fans of your music, and have been all the way through. And we've had the good fortune of having bands on the show who have played important parts of our lives. But there are a few bands, like you guys, who have been there consistently over time. And that is also the mark of real greatness, is showing consistency over time.

Shaking right now.

Well, Vince and Andy really started the whole thing. They had a little band going. And I bought a synthesizer, so that kind of got me in the band.

Yeah.

By the way, that's a very common... By the way, that's a very common theme. We've interviewed a bunch of bands, and they're always like, I had a guitar, I had a camera, whatever.

Well, there's a lot to do with that, because what we found out, and I'll elaborate on this, but you didn't need the amp anymore, and you didn't need to... You could just DI straight into a PA system, carry the little synth under your arm, pretty much, to a gig, and show up with our little drum machine and three synths and kind of teetering on some beer crates in a pub or whatever as our stands, and we could play, you know?

And Dave, did you know these guys when they first started, or did you meet them a little bit later?

Well, they were sort of infamous in the town that we grew up in for other things, but I did not really run in the same circles, but it was a good thing for me, because they sort of, you know, it gave me suddenly a focus that I had something to kind of grab hold of, and maybe it was a way out of the town that we grew up in. And they... Yeah, I think how we met properly was I was sort of hanging out with another band, right, Mark? Yeah. Yeah, and we were just rehearsing in the same space,

What was the name of that band?

Composition of Sound.

What an amazing name.

For short, Coz. Coz for short.

Coz.

Like OMD, you know, they were trying to be like OMD.

But meanwhile, it sounds like a manual that you find in a music store.

I was like, that's got to go. And I got such a... I got a better name, Depeche Mode, which everybody also went like, what?

But let's talk about that, because in French, it's fast fashion. So why fast fashion?

I'll tell you this story. Look, I was at a shitty sort of art college, as we all were at one point, and I was doing a fashion course there, and there was magazines there. I think it was something like we had a gig somewhere. We were thinking about changing the name. We had a little pub gig coming up, and this was the moment to change the name.

Did it put more pressure on you guys to come up with fancy outfits?

No, we were already trying that. Most of them homemade at that point. So it would be a pair of football socks with like up to the knees, pulled up to the knees, with some cutoffs to the knees, and tuck them in.

And some house slippers.

To make them look, yeah, some house slippers that were cut off.

Sean is fully around.

So tell me, so, then, so you guys formed. So Dave, so you joined and then you name it and you guys call yourself Depeche Mode. You start doing gigs. How many, before you, your first record is Speak and Spell, yeah? Yeah.

Yes, yeah.

Everywhere to every song.

Yeah, I mean, Speak and Spell. Yeah, and I want to get into that in a second. and to Vince, Clark. and, but what was, before you released Speak and Spell, how does that come about? that you guys get that record deal?

Yeah, we were playing most of the songs from that record, right? Like in, with mostly Vince Clark songs. And it was, it's really the one album that, because Vince left immediately after that album was released.

And Dave, he sang on that.

Before it was released.

Oh, really? Before it was released, yeah.

But he sang on that record too, yeah?

Well, we sang together. It was like sort of three-part harmony thing, sort of Beach Boy meets Ramones type thing we were going for, I guess. But the speed of the Ramones and the harmony of the Beach Boys, that was, I think it had Daniel Miller from Mute Records who signed us. He didn't really sign us, though. It was just a sort of handshake.

Is that where the song, the handshake, is a contract?

Martin was probably just, Martin wrote that song and he was probably just angry at everybody at that point. The music business and being ripped off again and again and again.

So this guy from Mute Records, he sees you what, in a pub? Are you playing clubs?

Yes, in a pub.

We supported one of his other acts called Fad Gadget at a pub called the Bridge House.

Fad Gadget.

You've got to check out Fad Gadget. You guys are going to like Fad Gadget. Great music.

Really? Yes.

I'm actually going to write it down now that you say that.

FAD. F-A-D, G-A-D-E-T.

G-A-D-G-E-T.

Legitimately.

Martin went to school. I did not.

Oh. Well, then you're going to, I mean, Jason, anything?

Nothing.

Okay. So,

Daniel saw us supporting Fad Gadget with our synths set up on, by that time we'd gone to all synths. We started off with a bass and a guitar in the band, but we'd gone to all synths and we had them set up on our beer crates and Daniel was impressed.

Yeah, he was.

We played really fast.

As Depeche Mode.

Yeah. As Depeche Mode. And the guy that ran the pub,

You've got to check out Fad Gadget.

Okay. So you guys, so you go and you support these guys, and then this dude from Mute Records is like, yeah, you guys are, the guys that are supporting Fad Gadget are pretty good.

We actually had met him before. Vince and I had trailed around all the record companies and we had gone to Rough Trade Records in London thinking that we had made this masterful demo, that they were going to sign us immediately, because we actually had Melody and most of their other bands at that time did not. They were just Noise. And we thought, they're going to sign us immediately. And the guy that ran the record company, Scott, he was not really interested, but he listened to our tape and while he was listening to the tape, Daniel Miller happened to walk into the office because Fad Gadget was being put, distributed by Rough Trade at the time.

and walked out.

And we were like, well, fuck him. That's Daniel Miller from Mute Records. He knows. We walked out of there. And this was, I guess, so, the chance, the next chance meeting, when we were opening for Fad Gadget,

That's like 1981..

Mark, is that correct, Mark? Is that kind of correct?

that is correct, yeah. It was a 45..

It was a 45. then. We called them a single. It was a 47 inch single, a 45.. And he said, I've got enough money to do that.

So that's like 1980, 81..

That was 1980, and Daniel is still involved with us today.

Yeah. No kidding. Wow.

First of all, that's incredible that you have that kind of long, lasting relationship. Yeah. So it's 1980. and what were you, you guys write this record. What were you listening to at the time that you wrote that in 1980??

Yeah, I was going to say the same thing. What were you listening to? And also, were you, did you think back then you were following a trend like where this, the music business is going into synth pop, and maybe we should do that. or was that truly a genuine love?

It hadn't really started, yet, had it?

We were fans of mute records.

Yeah.

So, you know, the fact that Daniel was offering us a one-off single deal, that was amazing to us.

Yeah. But who were the bands that were at that time that you were playing on your tape cassettes?

Well, like Fadgadget. Yeah. I mean, Daniel also. for a while had DAF, Deutsch Amerikanische Freundschaft.

Check them out as well.

Yeah.

D-A-F.

D-A-F. They sing in German.

The Normal.

Yeah, The Normal was Daniel himself. Warm Leatherette, you must know that.

You must know that song. Grace Jones made it famous, I guess. I don't know if she covered it.

I was just listening to, this afternoon, this morning, I was just listening to Trio. Do you remember the da-da-da?

The da-da-da, yeah. Yeah,

that they made on the little Casio. I was just listening to that and I was listening to some Blancmange and I was listening to,

do you remember? yeah. Blancmange played with us a lot. In fact, there was an album at the time called Some Bizarre Album. It was by this guy who put it together.

the, the,

the, the, the, the, the, the,

the, the, the,

the, the,

It was post punk. You got to remember that in England, it was coming out of the ashes of what it was over. Punk was over in England.

You listened to Clash, though. Like, was that your thing?

Well, there was the pistols, the Clash, the Damned, Susie and the band, all of these bands were kind of evolving towards the end of like 77, 78, into whatever that was coming, or they were kind of, it was over, you know? And, and we, kind of that, do it yourself attitude, uh, I think, is what we.

bought into, um, well, you guys were, you guys had your own unique sound coming out of that in the same way, sort of in the punk world that, like Paul Weller and the Jam, never really fit quite into the punk, right. And, and Paul, and then he ended up, of course, and you guys probably know him and he's amazing and went off and did Style Council, but in that same way that you guys kind of took from, or were, were born out of a different era and then created your own genre in a, in a way, I mean, not to put you on the spot, but, uh, because there wasn't, there weren't a lot of people who were making what you guys were doing. People just started doing, and I don't like Bronski beat, you know, they were doing stuff, but they came after you guys, like two years after speaking.

Yeah. It's almost like we had Bono on and we were talking about how, you know, when all these pop stars, like Madonna, Michael Jackson, all these other kind of like big pop stars, and here comes Joshua Tree, this album that was so like, wait, what? It's so alternative. And then you guys came along, I think, in the same kind of way, where it was just like, it was left of center from what everybody else was listening to back.

then.

And we didn't really, we didn't really fit in any of that stuff.

Yeah.

That's. it was like, we, we always, uh, we always, kind of were the odd one band out in that there was a wave of stuff that came, um, but we never quite fit. And I think that was a really good thing. And I think a lot of that was to do with Daniel Miller and his guidance in, uh, kind of allowing us to slowly, like, develop into what it was. We wanted to be.

Yeah. It took us a while. It took us a while. Yeah.

Yeah.

And we will be right back.

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And now back to the show.

Martin. So Vince Lee, like as I allude to, Vince, leaves and, and goes and with, uh, Alison way and, and goes and does first, does, um, yeah, zoo. And Martin, did you, so? then you started writing more because Vince had written. was, or were you guys equally writing?

Yeah. I wrote a couple of songs on the first album and yeah, because I was the only one who actually wrote songs. when Vince left, I kind of had to do it.

Right. It was just like, we were like, so, and Daniel literally was like, does anybody else write songs? Cause I think your writers left and we were like, what does that mean? It's over. And he's sort of mine was like, I'll go a couple of songs.

Well, I was lucky, but you know, well the, the album was a very weird collection of songs, because some of them I wrote when I was 16, you know, and then, you know, some of them I was making up in the studio when we were in, when we were trying to like finish the album.

Which album? Black Salvation, you mean?

A Broken Frame.

No, Broken Frame. A Broken Frame.

Okay. So what was the, what was the, after he left and you were, and you stepped into that role, as Dave says, cause everybody else was looking around going, who the fuck's going to do this? What was the first, when you started writing, what was the first sort of like big hit that you wrote? And everybody's like, ah, fuck yeah, Martin, well, well done, man.

It was straight away actually.

First thing we recorded was See You, and then you released that as a single, and that was a massive hit. Wow.

We, we actually went the highest. we'd gone in the charts. And then we went to number six was a big thing. And Martin had this new synthesizer called the PPG. And so we didn't use much equipment in the studio.

I think it was more Herman's Hermits.

Mrs. Brown. You've got a lovely.

I was going to say the Beatles, but I thought that was too far.

We were young.

My, my grandparents used to have a Herman's Hermits record. for some reason. We used to play it when we were kids. Do you remember that? Mrs.

Yeah. You got to remember. I was only 10 when this was happening.

Are you guys so shocked that your song just can't get enough is used everywhere. Always.

It could be anything. It's a tampon ad. It's like, it's in the cocaine bear. It's like, you know, come on, it's, you just, it is. It fits everywhere.

I mean, of all your songs, I really do know probably every word to every song. And I'm like, that's the song. Everybody plays everywhere. Wait,

what's it? You know, it's funny when, when Vince wrote that song, I think we were the first publisher that he had. We were at the offices and I think Rod Buckle, remember Mark? I, I seem to remember him saying to like, he said something like this to the rest of us. We were sitting on the couch, all kind of squashed together.

And really?

So we were like, he's given us a hundred quid for nothing.

but we can buy a tandem for that. Yeah. We were like,

yeah, we will buy that tandem.

but we were very impressed because he took us out for lunch. And Errol Brown from Hot Chocolate was in the same restaurant.

Yes. I remember that. Do you remember the band Hot Chocolate? No. You guys, so you guys have two loves.

Oh, yes.

Hot Chocolate, they were called.

So, so you have some hits in the UK, obviously. What was your first recognition in the US that you knew that people were listening to the band in the US?

Well, I think that Just Can't Get Enough did get some underground play, like obviously club play and stuff like that. But I think the first radio thing was probably People Are People.

Yeah. It was huge.

And it was still like really underground. It was, we were never really played on mainstream radio.

Right. And then, and then talk about like, first of all, just sidebar. Um, I used to get, I look like exactly like they've gone all the time in college.

People like, just like Dave, God, I could see that. Oh, wow. Wow. You better look in, though. You got better.

The Rose Bowl. Wasn't that just life, career changing? when you sold out the Rose Bowl to everybody? That was later.

It was a,

it was a very happy accident. to be honest. It, it was, it was,

but what, but it blew everybody's mind. I remember the press was like, wait,

60,000..

It blew our minds. I mean, we were not prepared, really. Um, we, it was one of those things that I think there was a suggested to us that we could do this, uh, at the end of that particular tour of music for the masses tour. Yeah. A big show somewhere where we, all, the fans, would, would travel, like in a grateful, dead way.

It was kind of like the fandom. Yeah.

It was the fandom. It was like the cult of, of, of the following that we had. Why are they obsessed with this band? And to still, to this day, there is that same, we carry that same,

uh,

it's like, um, uh, the, you know, the church of Depeche Mode, or something, you know? Yeah. Yeah.

Does that feel, does that feel heavy sometimes? Or is it something that changes your relationship to it? Does it kind of shift?

No, I mean, one, one thing I've realized recently, though, is, is like, you know, I'm a big soccer fan, and, you know, soccer fans always think, you know, they know better than the manager of the team they support. Oh yeah.

We get that.

So, so our fans, like you've gone on any of the forums, you know, all of our fans, you know, they're always complaining. They're never happy with what we do.

They're basically Arsenal supporters, like Martin.

Wait, wait, Martin, are you an, are you an Arsenal supporter?

I am.

Are you, so? you're from North, you, did you grow up in North London, then? Or?

No, we, we, East London. I should have been a West.

I thought you were going to be West Ham. Yeah,

I should have been a West Ham supporter, but, uh, no. Um, you know, you. just, you make a decision when you're like nine or 10, don't you? And if you, and you stick with it, you can't change.

Where we came from, it was like Arsenal, West Ham or Chelsea, basically. Yeah. That was kind of like the,

Dave, are you, as, are you, a football supporter? Do you have a team?

I was a Chelsea fan. So really, and I stopped going into Chelsea after getting a total beating. actually at Arsenal, away at Arsenal. I got chased down the street by a bunch of Arsenal fans. ended up rolling underneath a car to escape death.

I led them away. by the way. I, yeah, a lot.

You, you finally, let me, I mean,

Martin's done that a few times for me.

You showed them where he was at first. And then you're like,

this is too much.

I just read this book by this writer, Bill Buford, called among the thugs, which is about, so I don't know if you ever read that. Yeah,

that was it. There was a Chelsea crew, were called the crazy gang. And it was basically. people went to soccer to fight. That was kind of what it was.

Yeah,

Hey guys, where, where did, where did the, um, I, I just remember always being so taken by the mood you guys set with your music and also your, just your, your stage craft, the whole aesthetic of the band. It was, it is so sort of, I don't know what the right term would be. Dramatic, cinematic. Yeah. But I mean, I don't, I don't remember that anybody blazing a trail before you guys.

I think we were, um, we were lucky with when, when we wrote Black Celebration, that we got involved with Anton Corbin, who, like, became the kind of like the visual head for the band. Yeah.

Who's that? I'm an idiot.

Who is that? He's an incredible director.

He directs a lot of videos. Yeah.

Yeah.

Oh, but he's, he's a film director.

He's a very tall Dutch man. He's a very tall Dutch man.

He started out as a photographer.

Okay.

But, but you know, he makes films now.

For the NME, for the NME, we did New Musical Express in London. It was, he, he got to be the front cover guy, um, for, that would do the covers of that paper. And we, it'd always be like this amazing photograph of Joy Division or Echo and the Bunnymen or Suzie Sue from the band. She's, and there always were Anton's shots. Wow.

86 with Black Celebration. Yeah.

We, 81, we, we got the cover of the NME and Anton was shooting it. uh,

he had to shoot it.

He had to, he had to shoot it. I don't think he really wanted to, cause he was very cool and we weren't. And, uh, you know, I mean, we were trying to be cool, but,

and did he style that shoot in such a way that, that you guys sort of borrowed from and, and, and adopted going forward?

I think it sort of began there, even though we weren't probably aware of it, but by the time we, like Martin, said, by the time we got to, to Black Celebration, we had been working in Berlin, uh, Hansa Studios, the very famous, iconic, Hansa where Bowie had recorded, and, um, um, Iggy and, uh, you know, various other people that we looked up to. and, um, were influenced by. And, um, you know, I think that's where it really started for us. Martin had moved to Berlin as well for, for a short period of time there as well. And we, we started working there a lot.

Heroes always reminds me of, uh, Christiane F. Remember that, that films in West Berlin?

That's right.

It was on the soundtrack.

Do you guys also, there's also, and I'm sorry for the dumb, dumb question, and you've guys probably answered this a billion times, but I don't know. Is there, why the religious undertones? So many of them?

Uh, I don't know. They, just, it's spirituality, bro. I mean,

I've never, I've never been religious. Yeah. But I'm always searching, you know, aren't we all always searching? Yeah.

Sure. And then it's this, I feel often, especially when I'm singing Martin's words, and, uh, there's this kind of also, sometimes it's like a,

uh,

it is, it can be like an experience that when you're singing and sometimes you're kind of in a big place, like we just did, the garden and, or whatever, like, and you, there's certain gigs that you do. Um, it's this sort of experience. It is like a sort of, I don't know, spiritual experience. Yeah. Something that's there.

I mean, you even sort of take it, I mean, I've always loved blasphemous rumors because I just love that lyric. I don't want to start any blasphemous rumors, but I think that God's got a sixth sense of humor. And when I die, I expect to find him laughing.

Yeah.

I've just, I've always been obsessed. It's such a brilliant.

People miss the comedy. See, they miss the comedy in, in what we do. They just sort of miss the humor from Martin and they miss the delivery from Dave, but it's all there. You just got to look a little deeper.

The only reason I brought it up, because I love the comment and the cleverness of the language that you choose. It's really cool.

But then it also did fit into Jason, kind of what you were asking about, into the, the aesthetic.

The formative sort of, yeah.

Yeah. It became, and you get that, you get that.

I think we like that. I think we're comfortable in that imagery,

a bit of theater. and yeah. Yeah. Well, what was it about the writing, though, Dave, that, that always sort of kind of presented a block for you, because obviously you're a very intelligent man, know how to speak, know how to write, I'm sure. And then tell stories and whatnot.

Well, in the early days and also, you know, a lot, even now, when we're singing a lot of these great songs that Martin's written, um, they always change too. They change over the years, depending what's going on in your life. They, the different, they represent something different and they, they take their memories, songs and memories, you know, um, and they're there and they're there to also to, uh, develop new memories.

Um,

and, uh, the, the have yet to come, you know, uh, but, but I, I feel like that, if you really tap into a good song when you're writing and there's something and it doesn't, you know, you kind of have to work at it sometimes, but sometimes, if you really let go of control of the lyric or whatever and allow something to just, you know, it's a combination of things that might happen at the same time. Uh, you could just follow the idea, you know, it's just allow it to just, you know, and other things you have to, you have to kind of, like, you know, move when we're working in the studio together, for instance, Martin's, uh, you know, it's always right in the majority of the songs. Um, I, I try and create, uh, I work with a song for a long time before I actually go to finally sing it. So I want to live with that song for a long time. And when I, when I step up to the mic, I already know where I want to go with it.

but, but the melody that, that perhaps you've written to go with it or chosen to go with it, I would imagine, would, uh, would inform what words work or what words don't work anymore.

They serve, they serve each other. And it's a lot of the time it's about removing stuff. We did that along this record. We sort of, we, there's a lot of clutter that you automatically put in place because you think it's supposed to be there, but quite often it's removing things to allow a simple, uh, idea to really come through.

All right. And I love, like, you know, almost all your melodies that you guys write are, are, you think it's going to go to the obvious one that the ear is familiar with? and boonk, you can take a look.

He'll take one of my songs, for instance, that we were working to say, a song like wagon tongue, which is on this record. And I sent my little demo to Martin of me, like ham, fistedly playing on a guitar, trying to get the song out and find the chords and, and that. And I send it to my, and then Martin sends it back with this beautiful, like craft work, ask, like chords and, and I'll pediating since and stuff. And I'm like, Oh, okay. But then that takes me then to another place.

Well,

I know, I know. Well, it is true that I, I can speak as the three of us, I've worked with both these guys and, and, and neither, none of us really sort of come in prepared in the sense that we don't fully have it memorized. a certain way. You can't, you have to kind of have a loose relationship with, with whatever you're doing. Because so much of it is informed by what the other person is bringing.

You sort of leave room for the effect of the other.

Yeah. Yeah. Like that's a, but, by the way,

well, can I just really quick, and then we'll get off this. Jay, I, I'm going to send you this song because it's one of the most famous songs. It's such an old song. It's called somebody, but you'll love it because, and I love this because the dumb dumbs didn't quite get it back then about the comment. You know, I want somebody to share, share the rest of my life, share my innermost thoughts, know my intimate details.

That's why love is bollocks.

It still gets played at lots and lots of weddings.

I'm sure it's just having a laugh at everybody else's expense.

So for, uh, for a dummy, uh, music listener like me, I always, uh, struggle to hear what, what the words, uh, I T what, what did they say? What did that? I'll back it up. Is it a screw it? I'll just listen to you, Martin.

Because it sounds better. He's done that.

Right? Where you're sort of missing this, this word structure that you're doing.

It depends how drunk you are, you see. There's a, there's that tipping point. You know, we all know the tipping point. It's, it's, it's great. And then it's not great anymore.

We were lucky that we, we sorted something out before you actually had to do a, a guide vocal in the studio. Cause there was, there's a track that didn't go on the album. That's coming later in the year. And it's called Life 2.0.. What did you think it was called Dave?

Oh yeah.

Like doodoo?

Oh, no. Life, what was it, Mark? I forgot.

Life, life, life to,

um, life to, uh,

to perform or something. I don't know. Life to.

I think I even wrote it down. I wrote it down. Cause when Mark sent me the song, he often doesn't send the words. He'll send a demo or whatever. And, and so I kind of,

listen to prolong life.

Super long. That was it. Life to prolong. I was like, okay,

all right.

Life to prolong. I don't think anyone's ever used the word prolong in a song. That's pretty cool. Dave, Dave,

when you're Dave, when, when you're performing it later in the, in the year, you've got to, or if you're performing it now on stage, you've got to get the audience going saying that can happen.

I said the other night, let's go next, you know, because at the end of everything counts, I just shouted out in the garden, let's go next. Oh,

that must've gone big.

We'll be right back.

All right. Back to the show.

Did I hear you say, uh, that it got kind of Kraftwerk-esque? Did, did you say, did you? Yes. It's so funny. Cause you're like the third band that's referenced Kraftwerk.

Well, they were probably instrumental in Martin getting a synth, I was sure imagined in the first place.

Yeah. And, and, um, yeah, we were talking about the, the early bands that influenced us, you know, and we mentioned that, that wave that was coming up with us, but they were obviously way before that, you know, Autobahn was like 74.. Yeah. Yeah.

Wow, man.

That's wild.

I think Daniel as well, Daniel Miller, like he's sort of, once he cut his influence, he was listening to, you know, he's a little bit older than us. So there was like Neue, and there was all these like German, kind of those that, that kind of stuff, Mark, that like,

yeah,

that we wouldn't have probably heard really if it wasn't for him. And it's that, that sort of kraut rock that was called. like that stuff as well. A lot of like the, like waiting for the ninth to fall, for instance, it's got like continuous kind of like a role in progression all the time. These influences.

you guys had that, you guys also embodied that too, Martin, you know, that, that sort of, like. you said, Dave, that, that progression, you guys understood the importance of it, the sort of drove so many of your songs,

atmosphere,

atmosphere and almost hypnotic,

right? Atmosphere over a lot of other things. Sometimes we would go around with like tape machines into like scrap yards or building sites and record like weird shit. Um,

noises that you heard and everything counts. has all that stuff at the start,

right? Yeah. I don't even know what that was now.

That was,

uh, like,

would you like a store or something?

Industrial. That was like a Chinese violin. that was badly. Oh, yes. I think that we couldn't apply.

It was an instrument that we couldn't apply, that you just made.

Do you want to hear me say that again? Where?

Yeah, no, I think we got it.

Hmm.

Hmm.

Sorry. And be honest.

Yeah. I mean, we, we came up good and bad,

right?

We came up, uh, teams. And I mean, it was like, albums, vinyl, you know, lit by getting that record, getting, you know, going to having enough money to go buy a 45 or 70, like, you know, which was, I think, at the time when I'm in first, probably 45, P or whatever. that was like something like that, you know, you to, to go, you stole it from somewhere and you got, you went to the market and you look for the singles and looked at the covers and go, this one looks weird and interesting. And what is this? Um, of course, and we, we had one show in England like this TV show called top of the pops, where you, on Thursday nights or whatever, you'd see, see music like Bowie and you know, Gary, glitter and slide and T-Rex and, um, all these sort of seventies things at Roxy music.

Right. Right. Yeah.

Like. I love that. Yeah. See, I remember that too. Sitting in a room and, and putting a wreck, taking it out of the sleeve and putting it on.

You know, this million,

you'd have it, we have a cleaner, you'd have, you'd have the, the dust or the brush, you'd let it go around and clean off the needle and drop the needle on it and sit there and maybe you would have lyrics. Sometimes, if a record came out, you were waiting for, and it had lyrics.

You were like, yes, that was good. That was so, I mean, the Bowie stuff would like, I remember I stole from my friend, Phil Gurry. I was around his house and he had a, and I was around his flat and, and he had a, the double live, David live at the Philadelphia tower album. And I opened it up and I saw that this lyric sheet, like the sleeve, fell out and I was just kind of like sitting there and he went off to the toilet or something for a minute. And as, and when he was gone, I, I took it, I folded it up and I shoved it in my jacket and I was like, stole, stole.

I had a roommate in college who was obsessed with albums and I took his, uh, Beethoven, what was that group? Beethoven, uh, Camper, Beethoven. Beethoven.

Camper Van Beethoven. Let this kid.

Camper Van Beethoven.

Take the skinheads bowling.

Yeah. And I took that. I was really sitting in his room. We were listening to albums and I took the jacket, and I was so hot and I took the album jacket and I started fanning myself and completely bent the whole thing. And he never heard from him again.

I remember, I remember how this is. I have so many like different record memories, but the one that I remember when, um, that first simple minds record came out and they did a clear record. You remember that? And then it was clear.

It's a red vinyl right now. Memento Mori.

Do you really, is? it came out in red vinyl?

Yeah. It's in red.

Clear one as well.

There's a clear one and there's a red one. Um, 180 gram. Like, yeah, it's cool. It's, it's really cool.

Well, now I'm going to buy it, cause I'm going to come full circle. So, so you have this, this record came out, by the way, the video, I was just thinking about the video that I just saw, uh, also has like, sort of like, well, I guess, religious. I mean, you guys are in a graveyard.

Yes. Well, it's a bit camp too. Come on. Let's face it. I'm crawling around on my hands and knees in the grave.

Um, snap the leash.

Yes. This is the only way we got away is because I'm the one crawling around. Of course, if we've got some, you know, beautiful girl or guy to do that or something, we would be in big trouble. now. I have a question.

How, how do you guys determine who sings what track?

Uh, it's kind of obvious.

Sometimes it's usually, yeah. I think it's just usually obvious.

Yeah. Yeah. Just because of where, the, where, where the, the ranges, or because,

I mean, well, the soul with me on this album, I knew he made, I thought to myself, you know, Martin will, Martin would just be able to sing that song much better than me. You know, it's different. Is it, we have a different, a different tone, a different way we sing. Um,

but together, it's just unbelievable.

I used to get bent out of shape a bit. I, I used to years ago, I wanted to sing everything and I used to feel like it was, but you know, my voice wasn't good enough. And that's why mine would sing a couple of songs. I mean, always, yeah, but it was back in the years ago. But, um, now, now I don't, it was,

you know, what it means. You got a break on the stage as well.

Yeah. I get a break too. I can't, I just like two hours plus. I mean, I need that 10 minutes or so in the middle to sort of get some oxygen.

But isn't that funny? And I'll say this to, to all of us is all gentlemen, over 50.. Isn't that funny? You get to this age and you're like all the things that used to sort of, you take personally or bother you, or whatever.

And now you're like,

Oh, fuck, who gives a shit? It's so stupid.

Yeah. I'd rather take the break.

Yeah.

I would take the break. Yeah. I would take the break for sure.

Now, what are you doing on your breaks nowadays? Like at the garden, during your 10 minutes, versus what you were doing 30, 40 years ago during your 10 minute break, has that changed backstage?

That's changed a lot.

Cause for Jason, Jason, for Jason and me, it's changed a lot. And we don't partake anymore.

We probably squeezed in a nap. Whereas back in the old days, yeah,

we would have been,

we would have been looking for something to just get a little bit more electricity into that set, you know?

Was that fun playing in the garden? That must've been.

Oh, my God. It always is. It's, it's, it's the church of New York, isn't it? Let's face it. It's, uh,

they must've gone.

No, we've been lucky enough to play there a lot of times over the years. Um, it's always one of those gigs that you're, you know, it's the anticipation and everything about it. I was lucky enough this time as well. My daughter's band, Stella Rose and the Dead Language. They, I, we got, uh, had them open for us.

but I could. Who gives a shit about this Nepo baby? I don't give a fucking shit about the Nepo baby. Shut up. Come on.