'The Interview': Marlon Wayans Lost Nearly 60 Loved Ones. Comedy Saved Him.
2024-05-04 00:37:24
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Hey everybody, it's Sabrina.
Just popping in here to remind you that every weekend on Saturday we're going to be sending you episodes of a new show our colleagues are making.
The show is called The Interview. This weekend, David Marchese talks to comedy star Marlon Wayans.
A quick warning There's some swearing and references to sex and sexual assault.
Okay, here's the show.
From The New York Times, this is the interview I'm David Marchese.
It's not easy to make what some people might call dumb comedy, because if it were, more people would have a career as successful as Marlon. Wayans. Wayans broke out in the early 2000s when he co-wrote and co-starred in slapsticky parody comedy movie hits like Scary Movie 1 and 2, White Chicks. And My personal favorite Little Man. Which, for those of you who don't remember, is one in which he plays an adult, masquerading as a baby. He spends most of the movie in a diaper.
Marlon is the youngest of ten children, and he's a member of the Wayans Family Comedy Dynasty, which also includes his successful siblings Damon, Sean, Kim and Keenan Ivory Wayans. They all had a hand in the groundbreaking 90s sketch comedy show In Living Color. Marlon went from there to later starring on five seasons of the WB sitcom The Wayans Brothers. He made all those hit movies I mentioned. And then, on top of all that, he's also built a nice career for himself as a supporting player in dramatic movies. But recently, Wayans, who's now 51, has been using his comedy to work through some much heavier topics.
His upcoming stand-up special, called Good Grief, is all about the death of his parents, as well as the nearly 60 other loved ones he's lost in just the last few years. When I talked to Marlon, he was in Albuquerque, where he was filming a psychological horror movie with Jordan Peele's production company. And he was getting ready to host a party for the film's cast and crew, where everyone was expected to show up in cowboy gear. Here's my conversation with Marlon Wayans.
Hi Marlon.
What's up, David?
How are you?
I'm good, tired.
Tired from filming?
Yeah, man, this one is a lot on a 50-year-old body 51, but it's great.
You said you're tired, but you're having a party tonight. Is that what I just heard?
Yeah, when I do movies, I like to form community and family. And so I'm having a party for my cast and my crew at my house that I'm renting and just kind of gathering. The fights are going to be on and just so people could mingle and roll some cigars and have some tacos.
Well, you know, since you're having a party tonight—?
Shindig.
A shindig knees up.
You want to pull up?
It seems like a perfectly natural thing to talk about the subject of your new special, which is the death of your parents.
Gang, gang isn't that crazy.
People are like, What's your next special? I'm like, Oh, it's a really funny, hilarious journey about the death of my parents.
But it wasn't just the death of my parents, I lost 58 people that I loved in a matter of three years. And it felt like Biblical, you know how you read things in the Bible and you go, man. That's some real traumatic stuff that person went through. And then they find this light. At the end, we get the lessons, and it's always through tragedy.
How do you find the funny thing in the sad thing, or when did you realize that you could make comedy out of these traumatic events?
It's been a gift since I was a kid. I mean, all of us Wayans, we're crazy people. The worst thing happens, and the first thing we think is what's funny about it. There's funny absolutely everywhere. I remember my cousin said he died and my auntie buried him on jeans, and he had a t-shirt and some Air Force ones and a baseball cap.
And me and Damon sitting over his casket, and Damon looks at me and goes, You know, if there's a dress code in heaven, I don't think, said he's getting in. And people thought we were crying, but we were crying, laughing. We always look for laughs.
Are there elements of the new special that you can point to and say? This is a kind of joke? Or the kind of material that I couldn't have done five years ago or ten years ago? What in it is evidence of your growth as a comedian?
I think as a comedian, I'm getting to the good stuff. This was the hardest thing for me to do to work on this material. About my mom passing, and I'm still dealing with the grief as my dad is on his way to transitioning. I had two shows the night my father passed, I had two shows and I pulled up to the comedy club and I get a call and my dad died. I was like, Okay.
All right, cried in the car, real fast, boom. I had a show, I didn't cancel the show, I did my show. And then right there on the stage, I told the audience my dad passed and I broke down, I cried, and then I got ready for the next show.
I think in order to grow as a comedian, for me it's like talking about the hard stuff when you talk about real-life pain, like parents passing something. Everybody may go through. And you can get through that set, and you can find these nuances of funny, and you can still be irreverent, edgy, crazy, silly, thought-provoking and vulnerable, all at the same time. I think that's growth and I miss my parents dearly, but I'm a different human with my parents gone than I was when they were here. Because I think now I'm a man. I don't have parents anymore, so I live differently and I understand the quality of life. I want a vacation more.
I don't look at my phone as much. I walk, I never went outside and walked, I was never a walker. I thought people was crazy.
Why are you walking like, bro, get on the train? Every morning I get up and for one half hour I go for a walk. Just to clear my mind, just to think, and it has me thinking in ways that I never thought before. I pray more because when I pray, I feel like I'm speaking to my parents and that they're listening. And I let them know what's going on. I report back to them, like Mork, when he used to talk to Ork.
Good reference.
Very 1980s, 70s, but my identity has been concreted in the departure of my legendary parents.
So the key to self-improvement? It's simple, you just have to have your parents die.
That's a way sometimes they'll break you, though, you know what's crazy? My mother's death broke me, it shattered me into a million pieces because that was my girl.
I never got married because I never wanted my mother to be jealous of a woman. I never wanted my mother to feel second to any woman.
Is that true? You know, that's the reason why you never got married?
One of five reasons I'll say that was number two, number one is I was going to fuck that up. It's going to happen. Everybody that knows that I haven't been married, they say all you did was skip two divorces, and my mom was very needy.
I told my mother on her deathbed I said, I never got married because I always wanted you to be my number one girl. Those were my last words. I said, Take that to heaven with you.
So I realize, as we're talking about this, talking about your parents, not really making the case, that this is a particularly funny special.
No, it's hilarious, let me tell you, it's about an hour and seven minutes, it's hilarious for about an hour and five. And then you have spread throughout the special, two to maybe three minutes of heart. I'm proud of this special because I think it's going to make you feel. Because I'm crazy and I know it, and I can be inappropriate and I know it, and I'm always going to be obnoxious in that way.
I think in order for me to hit the different levels of comedy, you got to be somewhat offensive and I'm okay with that. But when you hit the frequency, it speaks to a heart and it's so relatable. You don't think that these things that you're going through, you think that it's just happening to you. But you do these sets and you're like, Wow, this is happening to a lot of people.
You said, to reach certain levels of comedy, you got to be offensive. And there is the material in the special, I'm thinking in particular of the Magic Johnson AIDS material.
Oh, you saw the special, I saw it.
Yeah, yeah, which, by the way, he has HIV, not AIDS. You should go in and re-dub that, you know what the other mistake you make is.
You call Louis Armstrong, I know sax player, I know trumpet player.
But it was still funny, right? Here's the thing you can't be super on point with the facts when you're telling jokes, sometimes you just you tell the jokes, man. And what's crazy is, I've had friends and relatives that died from AIDS. And so part of even that joke is finding humor in things that happen.
It's a different way to look at something tragic, and I think the world has forgot how to laugh. And part of it is we're grooming people to be sensitive. But I find when I'm in a comedy club, people like to laugh, they like to laugh at those dark things, the magic jokes. People want to laugh again, and I'm trying to deprogram and get us back to just laughing.
So in the special, there's one magic joke I'm thinking about, in particular where I understand what you're saying, that you sort of have this series of jokes where you're framing it. Like, Maddox's life got better after he got sick, you know, that's kind of the hypothesis of the jokes, but then you throw in a line there about sex with monkeys or whatever. And that was the one really where I cringed. I was like, Oof, that's rough.
Well, I said, show me the monkey I got next, I didn't say he had sex with monkeys. I said. I don't know how he got this good version of this disease, but however he got that, I want it that way. To me, that was escapism, because it's not real. Of course, he didn't have sex with a monkey.
If you read every joke, if you get literal, everybody's going to be offended by it. There's about 72 things in that special to be offended by. I think great humor is take whoever you send up. Those people are laughing the loudest, and I hope that Magic laughs the loudest at that joke, which he will. Magic has a great sense of humor.
I hope Shaq laughs at his joke. I hope all of them laugh.
Do your shaq impression right now, Do your shaq impression.
What was your name?
These are friends of mine. When Kevin Hart does a LeBron hairline joke, I don't think LeBron gets mad. I think part of it is it's all out there, I'm not telling no secrets, this is all out there.
I'm just going, here's a different way to look at it. I rescued myself from depression by learning to laugh in my worst circumstances. Losing my parents broke me. And I'm telling the audience, here's how you can survive this.
Find humor in everything.
You know, the idea of the culture getting too sensitive or overly sensitive. It's something that people have been talking about and have identified for a while now. And I'm just interested in digging into that a little bit more. Because, on one hand, what we might say is too sensitive could also be understood. As you know, the culture being made safe for people who didn't feel safe in the culture before. Like, the example that comes to mind for me is it's one that has to do with your life.
You have a trans son, right?
Mm-hmm.
And so the sensitivity around how people talk about transgender people, and you know, what they say, and how we think about transgender people. That is directly related to a change in the culture that allows your son to live the life that he wants to live. Absolutely, these things are connected, so how do you see that connection? Like, on the one hand, what you're calling the sensitivity?
On the other hand, how a culture actually changes.
I'm working on a beautiful hour about that, about the transition, and as a parent that went through it, I think I have something to say. That forwards the agenda of that kind of unconditional love and acceptance for your child and for others. I went through it and the transition wasn't about their transition, it was my transition.
Going from like opposing what they wanted to do to complete acceptance, and it was the five stages of grief. I felt like I was losing my daughter, my daughter was dying in my eyes. And so I speak about this from a true perspective.
And I take you through the five stages of grief and midway through the act, after denial, after anger. And when I get to bargaining, that's when the whole set flips.
Because the people that are angry and in denial, you know, they're all on my side as the parent at first. And I'm talking in complete ignorance, because that's what a lot of people are. And then the whole set takes a complete 180 because it's about me getting to acceptance.
And I become a cautionary tale for the people that may be going through this, of how you can get through this. Try to get to acceptance as quickly as possible. It took me all of a week, that's all.
It sounds like a busy week.
It was, it was where I was like, No, you can't do this, you can't do that, I'm not supporting it.
I was that guy, I was that guy. And I'm ashamed to say it because in my eyes, I was protecting my child, not understanding that all I was doing was creating distance.
And that's not fair to them. Who the f am I to stand in this person's way and tell them what's right for their life? I'm a parent and the only thing I can do as a parent is be an example. To love my child and hope that other parents do the same.
So did your experience with your son and understanding what your thought process was, the five stages you know, and how you reacted to. What pronouns does your son use?
He and they.
Right, so reacted to what they were going through. Did that change or affect your thinking at all about comedy? And who gets made fun of? When and how and when to push buttons?
Yes and no, I think a comedian has the right to do have their point of view.
Just as people have their right to have their point of view, I don't get offended by anybody's humor.
I think, look, Don Rickles did a lot of racist jokes, but man, he was really fun. I was a really funny racist. I'm part comedian, right?
So before I'm even like, Black or a man, I'm a comedian I I'm all for.
Comedians developing their point of view, no matter how ignorant, small, inconsiderate, dark.
They have to do this because if nobody tries to find the funny, then society's missing out on humor.
There are certain comedians I'm thinking of, uh, you know, Ricky Gervais, Dave Chappelle, where it seems like to them material about transgender people.
It's the taboo that they need to keep pushing at to show that they're willing to push at a taboo.
I don't think it's the taboo that they're pushing it. They just want to say what the hell they want to say. And who are you to tell me what I can say and not say? Dave is a friend of mine, I have a trans child.
I'm not going to not be Dave's friend because of his point of view. I went to see his shows, We've had several conversations about things he knows. I have a.
A trans son? But that doesn't change the fact that, hey, you got a.
Hour on this. That he wants to do from his point of view, and he has every right to do it. Me and my child had this conversation and they understood, you know, they may feel that way.
But I said, as a comedian, he has every right to say what he wants to say and try to find the humor in what he's saying.
I don't think his intention is to make you feel bad, I think he's just trying to protect his right.
To say what he feels, we don't have to think alike. You're still my friend, I learned from you, there's things I learned from you.
And hopefully through conversations, you know, we could come to the fence and agree on and disagree on some things. But we affect change in each other and that's life.
And I think we have to learn to laugh again. We're heading to a very.
Sad place when we can't laugh anymore.
Well, you know, it's fine. I really think the idea that we don't laugh anymore is just fundamentally wrong, like I think.
You know, if you take social media as an example, so let me just joke after joke after joke, like funny meme after funny meme. To me, the question is really like.
What are those jokes saying, and are they?
Who's telling the joke?
Who's telling the joke and what are they trying to convey with the joke? I think that feels to me like the more.
Germane question or the?
People don't tell the same jokes they used to at work, they don't sit, there's no water cooler talk anymore, you know what I mean it's like?
When's the last time you were at a water cooler?
I got one in my house.
Was your assistant laughing at her jokes?
Oh, good for you.
No, but I think like even now when you walk on sets, it's like everybody's tight, nobody wants to offend.
Nobody wants the same thing, nobody wants what. We're a bunch of robots just walking around, there's no joy.
That's why I love performing on a stage, because it's a reminder to me that people still want to laugh. There's nothing like that elation that you get, it's a high.
That you get when you don't know if this joke that I'm about to say is going to offend everybody. Are they going to walk out, are they going to boo me?
Are they going to hate this? And then you tell it and everybody cracks up and you're like.
It's just when you get into the corporate setting, or you go sometimes when you go home, it's safety again, but now.
Even then, you can't say that, you can't say that you got your kids telling you, dad, that's inappropriate.
That's inappropriate to you, you little fucker. To me, it's perfect. I pay the rent here.
I'm going to say what I want, it's okay for me to be inappropriate. My inappropriateness has paid for your college.
You know, you talked earlier about changes in kind of.
What's considered funny or what we expect of comedians? And I was thinking about that.
In the context of your hit movies, you know, which come out of the tradition of?
Like Mel Brooks films or Zucker Abrams Zucker films.
You know, those were hits, those were moneymakers, you know you.
You made them cheap, you made them. But those kinds of films are also really not in vogue anymore. And it.
Seems to be like both in stand-up and in just in film comedy generally.
There's always the idea that the comedy has to be kind of like, about something in addition to being funny, like it can't just be a funny movie.
It also has to be about a larger theme, and I'm curious to know, like, why you think the kind of comedies that you?
You made your name with Fell out of Vogue. What's changed?
Well, if you look at Hollywood for the past ten years, there hasn't been a lot of comedies, period.
Because Hollywood, everything is cyclical. They were chasing the superhero, they were chasing.
The blockbuster and I'm very patient because they're gonna make comedies again, but I think the people that's gonna make the comedies.
Are the people that know how to make the comedies they keep trying to make like?
These like scary movies.
The audience is like, That don't taste like the Wayans, I'm not going.
Because they know we know how to tell these jokes. It's a family recipe that we've had. You can't replicate what we do.
It's just we know you can have all the seasonings, you don't know how much to put on it.
Wait, are you? is the new scary movie that they just announced that irritating to you?
No, I mean, you know, it's not the first time we've we've heard it.
You know, so if you know if they want to.
Waste fifty million dollars, go for it.
Do you get a check from that?
No, that's a that's a whole nother conversation, I'd like to say that, you know?
Those Weinsteins, they.
They wasn't just.
They, they, they raped everybody.
Not the same business wise, not the same business wise.
Literally.
And business wise, they we all got a little bit, a little taste. There was some terrible.
Terrible people.
Uh, good example of an offensive joke.
Depends on the audience. Damn dave, you're sensitive.
I'm going to take you to a Ricky Gervais show and a Dave Chappelle show, and I'm going to sit next to you and watch as you go, Oh.
God.
Wait, do me being sensitive in a white guy voice, Oh.
God, you can't say that, Christ.
Jesus, Hey Christ, that's inappropriate.
You know what's crazy?
What's crazy, Marlon?
Like, No, I think, like, even when you go on stage.
Right?
And you say a certain topic immediately, sometimes you feel the audience.
Tighten up.
Yeah.
And then your job as a comedian is.
To basically say, beat them into submission until they either lighten up.
Or they tighten up so much that you leave their tight asses right there and you say, goodnight.
Um, just before we go, you know, I know you got to get ready for a party.
Can you tell me a, uh, funny party story from your life?
A funny party story.
Yeah, a party story. Hmm, I feel like you've been to a few parties.
I've been to too many parties. So, uh oh, I saw Tupac 20 minutes before he got shot.
And ironically, I saw Biggie 20 minutes before he got shot. I mean, it's not funny.
But wow, what a coincidence. Wait.
Is that true? Yeah, in both instances.
Yeah.
Holy Moly, that's not funny.
20 minutes from now, you make his shot, here's the thing, and then you laugh, He's a sick man.
David.
Uh, oh wait, can I try an offensive joke on you?
Go for it.
So you had, uh, 58? I just thought of this one.
Go for it.
You had 58 loved ones. Yes, diaries. You ever think the problem is you?
Are you contagious?
They want to get the hell away from me.
58 people.
Or wait?
I can keep going.
Who's 60? If you include Tupac and Biggie, there you go.
Are you counting anyone that you just admire as a loved one? Like you see a Oh, Tina Turner died, it's just.
Number 55 No.
She wasn't one of those people, some of those people were like, Chadwick was a friend. That was a hard one, yeah.
You know, I swear like it's crazy, like when you think about how many people have passed. And that's what made me do this special cause.
I feel like we need to laugh about it. I needed therapy, it was therapy for me. I still hurt, but man.
The last time I cried about my mom and my dad, it was only on set recently. And that's because my director, he's a sick man. And he wanted to incite some feelings. And he said, Just think about how proud your mom and dad are of you right now. And I thought about how I showed up in their absence for my family and how I was able to help bury them. Help my older siblings get through, help my nephews and my nieces, just show up for everybody.
And I think that's what they raised me to be, and that's what they'd be proud of.
Well, I appreciate you showing that emotion now I can see the tears in your eyes and you know, I'm sorry that you're going through that. But it's really good for me for this podcast. If you cry, maybe a little bit more audibly, I would really appreciate that.
I like you, you're going to be my friend Dave, you're going to be my friend.
But, you know, thank you for that openness, I appreciate it.
You just want to leave on a high note. But that was a joyful cry. I do miss them, but I know they would be proud.
But Marlon, I'll talk to you later this week.
Yes, sir.
After the break, I call Marlon back to revisit that Weinstein joke and talk a little bit more about parenthood.
I can't say what I am as a father, they can say what I am as a father. And when I'm gone. I hope I left them with a whole lot of love and a whole lot of memories. What a flaw. Wherever I wasn't able to show up. I hope they forgive that.
And I test mattresses today, I am testing seven mattresses, all brand concealed. It just feels like such a daunting endeavor to pick the right mattress. This mattress is very supportive, it's just very easy to shift positions.
We've considered nearly four dozen foam, innerspring and hybrid mattresses. We're looking out for edge support, motion, isolation and firmness levels. We are cross-referencing our data between testers, which includes people of all different shapes, sizes and sleep preferences. When it came right out the box, it smelled like lavender. I'm not sure how long that'll last.
I finished compiling all of my testers surveys. One tester noted the mattress had some give and underlying firmness and support. At Wirecutter, we do the work so you don't have to. For independent product reviews and recommendations for the real world, come visit us at Nytimes.com Slash Wirecutter. It feels very squishy, but in a good way.
Hi Marlon, how are you?
I'm good man.
So, you know, I was thinking about a very specific moment from our conversation where I asked you about no longer being involved with the scary movie franchise. And you mentioned Harvey Weinstein, who, I guess you believe, kind of strong-armed you out of the series, and when you brought it up,—.
Actually, it was Bob and Harvey. Yeah, I'm sorry.
But it was clear you were loading up a joke and you had this pause where I think you were thinking about then whether to say the joke. And I want to know if you can tell me, like, in your head, in that moment, when you have the potentially offensive joke lined up, what is actually going through your head in that pause?
Who's my audience? And I heard you cringe on the other thing, the monkey joke.
But I was going to say, you know, he doesn't just rape women, he rapes women too. Trust me, we did business with him. O.of.
Yeah.
Do you see a response?
Do you see a response?
I call that—we call that—and me and my brother. We'd be in a writer's room or we'd be in network notes. And you know, we've always been edgy with our humor, always, that's just how we do it right. And so when people have that reaction, like, Oh God, you know, that little thing you do.
Yeah, oof, we call that—we used to call that getting on a whitey bike. It was like brothers would crack up at that. But white people are like, Oh, I don't know about that, and they start pedaling backwards.
You know, it's funny, though I'm not—I don't know if the Whitey bike is actually the bike I ride on.
The fact that you said it made me laugh.
I'm not offended, you know, but there is the thing where it's like, when somebody says the taboo thing, where you go like, Oof, I don't know. Are you allowed to say that? But that's different than taking offense, you know what I mean?
But what is taboo when you've been in a situation? —for me, right? Once again, I can talk about things from a different perspective. And when I talk about Bob and Harvey and I say that, it's because there's damage there. I can go into a whole other article about the Scary Movers franchise. And you guys are like, Oh, I see why he said what he said, because we have been victims in that way, but in business.
Not physically, but in business, and you know, I think a monster's a monster, and those monsters showed up in business as well.
Yeah, you know, in the Good Grief Special, you talked about how you learned to be a man from your dad. But I'm curious about what you learned about manhood and masculinity from your son.
That sometimes you have to work your femininity. It's okay to be in touch with your feminine. It's okay to be vulnerable, It's okay to express yourself, It's okay to unstrap from your masculinity and your ego.
And sometimes that takes you not to, you know, to have a different approach. And sometimes it's not about trying to teach them. Maybe God's trying to teach you something. And so it taught me to be a lot more accepting and unconditional, and even forgiving of myself. It's okay to have stupid thoughts.
It's okay to forgive yourself for having a point of view that's not completely popular or evolved. It's okay to have those small feelings, those insecure things, those egotistical thoughts. That's like, Nah, I think I can control everything. And then God breaks you down and life breaks you down. And when you realize that you are, you crumble and you're on your knees, that's when God can just whisper to you.
And you're like, Oh, that's what you're trying to teach me. And I'm very grateful to my child. I love that baby because that's my firstborn. And I can't say what I am as a father, They can say what I am as a father.
And when I'm gone, I hope I left them with a whole lot of love and a whole lot of memories. What if I wasn't able to show up? I hope they forgive that.
You've referred a couple of times to hearing God or God talking to you. And do you remember the last thing God said to you? Or the last thing that you remember? Feeling like it was coming from God?
For me, my God speaks to me every day, He's in everything I do, even in my jokes, even in my experience, even in the darkness. God gave me a gift, which is to stay joyful through dark things. He gave me a gift. And I'm going to give that gift as much as I can, as long as I can.
And that will be my life. Identity is that. In the worst moments, I was able to try and find a smile and hold my hand up through the rubble and go, Hey guys, take this one with you.
Well, Marlon, you know, Geez Louise, you got a salty mouth, but I just think you're a heck of a guy.
Geez Louise is my favorite.
I'm going to keep your number, bro, in case anytime I need the white guy voice.
It's been a darn pleasure talking to you.
Darn tootin time.
That's Marlon Wayans. Good Grief will be available on Prime Video June 4th. When reached for comment. During the fact-checking of this episode, Bob Weinstein disputes that Marlon was strong-armed or that the negotiations were cutthroat.
This Conversation was produced by Seth Kelly. it was edited by Annabelle Bacon, mixing by Afim Shapiro, original music by Dan Powell and Marion Lozano, photography by Devin Yalkin.
The rest of the team is Priya Matthew and Wyatt Orme. Our executive producer is Allison Benedict. Special thanks to Rory Walsh, Renan Borelli, Isaac Jones, Maddie Macielo, Jake Silverstein, Paula Schumann and Sam Dolnik. If you like what you're hearing, follow or subscribe to the interview. Wherever you get your podcasts. And to read or listen to any of our conversations, you can always go to Nytimes.com Slash the interview.
Next week, my co-host Lulu Garcia-Navarro speaks with Charlemagne. Tha God.
If me as a Black man, if I criticize Democrats, then I'm supporting MAGA, but if I criticize, you know, Donald Trump and Republicans, then I'm a Democratic shill. Why can't I just be a person who deals in nuance?
I'm David Marchese and this is the interview from The New York Times.
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