#2129 - David Holthouse

How are you, man? Good to see you again.

There is something about these cult documentaries.

Yeah. But, um, yeah, I just always thought they were just kooks. You know, it's just... It's interesting, you know, knowing what I know now about the 60s, and, you know, what was done to sort of... To kind of crush the hippie movement.

Right. You know, it's interesting to see that this was connected to, you know, the Beatles and peace and love. And then you see this sect, that this... What was his name again?

That the Hare Krishna movement was invented in America in the 1960s. I just had it associated with a sort of a hippie movement, you know, and that's not the... That's not the truth of it at all. It's like actually a spiritual tradition that, you know, dates back thousands of years, like far predates Christianity. It's based in these ancient spiritual texts called the Vedas that, you know, the written version is like at least 3,500 years old.

And the oral tradition goes back thousands of years beyond that. So I learned a lot about, you know, Krishna consciousness in the making of this. And this shows about a particularly dark chapter in the history of the movement in the 70s and 80s that I don't think is a representative of the movement like today. Like, I think it's a force for good in the world today, actually.

But all it takes is one psycho.

But Prabhupada was the right dude at the right time. He showed up in Greenwich Village, New York City, in 1965 and started preaching Krishna consciousness. And it, just like, you know, took off like wildfire. And, you know, like Allen Ginsberg got down with it. Wasn't maybe a full scale devotee, but like he, was hanging out with them.

And but Prabhupada was already an old dude when he showed up in the US. And so in 1977, he died. So it's 12 years. And by that time, Krishna consciousness, there were, like Krishna temples all over the country and in the UK, because George Harrison had converted. That was one of his like strokes of brilliance.

Prabhupada, he like, sent a group of devotees to go camp out outside the Apple Records office and just like chant and dance until they basically got a meeting with the Beatles.

He was literally like, let's see if we can make the Beatles, you know, Krishna's. And with Harrison, it took, you know, and that song, My Sweet Lord. I mean, that's, that's what it's about. It's about Krishna consciousness.

And he appointed 11 of his closest, longest time devotees, all men, to be the gurus that would carry the movement forward. And while you could say that it worked and that Krishna consciousness is still around is bigger than ever. A few of those. These are dudes. These are like dudes in their 20s.

OK. That suddenly are being worshipped as direct conduits to the divine. In other words, treated as gods on Earth. Yeah. And some of them were not spiritually prepared for that.

Well, that is a thing that they always do, right? They give them spiritual names.

And it's a beautiful theater. And I had heard about it from my friend Ron White. Because I was telling him, you know, I think we should open up a comedy club. And he said, you should buy that theater. It was owned by a cult.

And I was like, that would be hilarious. Buy a theater that was owned by a cult. And there's a documentary on them called Holy Hell. OK. And it's the same sort of deal.

Yeah, so they start off. It seems wonderful in the beginning. Everyone's doing yoga. They're hanging out together, cooking meals together, and dancing. And like, it seems, like all cults, it goes sideways.

In the beginning, it looks like a wonderful idea. Like, society sucks. The way, you know, the modern world, the way it's set up, materialism, it's all foolish and spiritually vacant. There's a way to do this. And the way to live.

And this is the way. And everybody joins. And then Waco comes along. And the cult awareness network starts investigating this guy. And so he changes his name for the third time.

His name is Jaime Gomez. He was a gay porn star and a hypnotist.

One was Michelle. And I forget what the other one was. So he changed his name again, moves to Austin, and starts this cult. And has his followers build him this theater so he can dance in front of them. And that was the place that I bought.

But it was all fucked up. And we wound up getting out of the deal because there was, like, a lot of problems. And a lot of issues that had to be resolved with the property. And they didn't disclose that. So I got out of it and then got this place on 6th Street.

In the process, I really started investigating the cult. And I didn't investigate it, unfortunately, before I signed contracts. And I had gotten a call from my friend Adam. Like, hey, man, did you watch the documentary on the cult? I was like, oh, no.

Whatever. the documentary on the cult, it's generally a cult that went bad. And this one went bad. But it was the same sort of deal. They all got names.

They were all given spiritual names. And they were told that you're reborn. You're reborn in this new persona.

Because the city of Vrindavan in India is the sort of mythical birthplace of Krishna.

But when Kirtananda was in charge in the 70s and 80s, some really dark shit went on down there.

But they had this fucking temple there, the Palace of Gold, like Prabhupada's Palace of Gold, that they were originally building for Prabhupada to live in. But then he died before it was completed. But it's like this Taj Mahal-esque structure that's in kind of the middle of nowhere in the hills of West Virginia. I mean, there's just, you know, it's like a couple hours from Pittsburgh, basically, and up in the mountains.

And so, but this place, I mean, even now, it's like, it's, well, for sure in the 60s, for sure in the 70s, it was cut off from the rest of the world. I mean, these young kids would join the Hare Krishna movement. And basically a lot of the fuck-ups in the movement would get sent to Kirtananda at New Vrindavan because he'd put them to work building the temple, right? So, if you, like, joined and you were, like, you know, not fitting in for some reason, a lot of times they'd buy you a one-way bus ticket to, like, Morgantown or Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and you'd wind up up there, you know, in the hills, under Kirtananda's tutelage, right? And it went sideways in a hurry, especially after Prabhupada died.

He was already running New Vrindavan, like Prabhupada, had visited it and approved of it. And actually Kirtananda had gotten booted out of the Krishna movement because he kind of tried to take it over. Yeah. And at a certain point, like, Prabhupada, you know, kicked him out.

And Kirtananda, like, mindfucked this local sort of, like, philosopher dude that owned the land into signing it over, promising to be, like, a non-denominational spiritual movement, that that's what he was doing. And, as the guy put it, we interviewed his daughter, and he said, you know, as soon as the lease was signed, they put on bedsheets and started chanting, right? And so now you got the Hare Krishnas as your neighbors. Right. Yeah.

I mean, you do some awesome stuff, but it's, it's so fascinating to watch these alternative sort of movements get co-opted and how that can happen by the wrong sort of charismatic psycho. Right. And that's this, how do you say his name? Kirtanandan?

Wow.

And you got to buy these like frozen mango packs from the street vendors and like throw them up to the monkeys and the monkeys will drop your shit back down to you. And I'm convinced that the street vendors are in on it. Right? They probably are. Yeah.

So.

But there's hundreds of them. Thousands of them, man. I mean, they are everywhere. And you got to, you got to watch. You got to be constantly have your head on a swivel because they are so quick.

And so, you know, monkeys steal shit from them or any other, you know. There's a lot of Krishna devotees from all over India, too, that aren't necessarily, quote, unquote, Hare Krishnas, but, like, follow the Hindu deity, Krishna. So they come to, it's like a, you know, there's a lot of spiritual pilgrims to this city, all right. There's a lot of spiritual tourism there. And so the monkeys have a lot of targets.

They won't, you know, they'll be like, oh, thanks.

They're going to drop it, too. They'll be like, oh, how about I drop it in the sewer? Oh, you don't want that? Mango pack.

Wow. So we learn the hard way. That's the thing to do. If the monkey steals the whatever, hire the kid, he goes and brokers the deal with the mango juice guy, you know, and makes it all happen for you.

Wow. Yeah. Yeah. But we were there to film. There's this ceremony.

These two brothers whose father, his name, was Chakadari, his Christian name, his government name, was Charles St. Denis. He's known as Chaka in the movement. And his sons were doing this really ancient ritual to sort of release the soul of someone who's been murdered. And so they had their father's ashes, which he was murdered, you know, decades ago at New Vrindavan on orders from Kirtananda, because he was challenging Kirtananda's authority.

And, you know, he believes that there's at least a handful more victims up there whose bodies haven't been found.

Because it's really remote country. I mean, I want to stress that. It's really cold in the winter. There's a lot of snow. You know, to this day, it's sort of – it's a difficult place to get to.

I think at that point it's – and combined with, like, all the money. I mean, he was – he was – he had this guy that was a – he was – Kirtananda was a genius at running schemes and scams. to make money. He would dispatch, like, the hottest young female Krishna devotees to, like, stock car races and rock concerts and stuff to, like, raise money for whatever. They just make it up.

The starving children of India. Or they just make up charities. And they'd flirt with dudes, you know, especially at rock concerts, guys that are, like, high, and get them to give them cash. A dollar here, five bucks here, ten bucks there. They'd work at airports too, but – and they just brought in literally, like, garbage bags full of cash, you know, every week.

Wow. And they – and he trained them to deposit it in $9,900 increments.

It's hard to tell. But he doesn't seem enlightened. Right. You look at him. He looks like a guy who's a little unhinged.

And I've met people like that unhinged. And I've met people like that in, like, the psychedelics movement. And there's a few of these movements that are so open and basically anybody can become a part of it. You know, the concept behind it is, you know, we're all seeking enlightenment. We're all – but then you'll see someone who gets in there and you're like, what is – this guy's schizophrenic or something.

Like, there's something going on here.

That happened in a lot of temples around the country in the U.

S.

You know, it varies. It varies. You can't totally generalize. But, you know, the kids that grew up in New Vrindavan, you know, they have online communities where there's a lot of, like, for obvious reasons, like resentment and bitterness and anger. Yeah, obviously.

Still at the leadership of the Hare Krishna movement for not, in their opinion, you know, fully atoning for the sins that occurred there.

No. No. No. I mean –.

And he called him out for it and also called him out for the materialism, for, like, driving around in a limousine, for having, like, you know, they would buy him a new, you know, fancy SUV every year, or whatever. You know, and Charles St. Denis called him on his bullshit publicly. And that's what got him killed.

Right. Like, wayward folks that just didn't fit in anywhere in society. And a couple of my friends, one of my good friends, grew up a Jehovah's Witness. And, you know, it's just – you live in this world that is just very strange, sort of – I mean, it just doesn't make any sense. It's illogical.

It's crazy. And once you start questioning things, you find, like, you're not allowed to. And it's just very bizarre how many of these – like, I was having a conversation with Mark Andreessen, you know, the venture capitalist guy. And he was like, California still has a lot of active cults right now. I was like, really?

He goes, oh, yeah, there's a lot. So, like, there's ones you don't hear about where they kind of keep it together. So I guess there's, like, cults have to go completely, like, holy hell sideways before you get a documentary. Right. So some of them, they figure out how to kind of keep everybody together.

People don't want the world that's in front of them right now, and they're searching for some alternative. Then it comes along. What about love? What about this? Yeah, that's what I want.

Right. And then the next thing you know, you're wrapped up in this thing.

Do I have that correct?

Right. But for, you know, Joe Rogan to say, like, a librarian saved me from this happening to me, right? Yeah. Because you're a tough guy, okay? You're perceived as a tough guy.

I think rightly so. Now?

And for a guy that's, like, suffering that and thinking, like, why didn't—you know, it just helps when somebody in a position like yourself, you know, says, like, hey, you know, it could have happened to me.

Like, this—and I don't understand why it's so prevalent. And I think, you know, I've equated it to vampires. That it seems like one of the things that happens to some of the people that get molested. is they wind up doing it to others. Yeah.

But, yeah, it's unfortunate. So, you know, it's that hurt people, hurt people. cliché, right? Yeah. But there's truth behind it.

Because we've had conversations about people that are unjustly accused. And she knows that I've had many people on my podcast that spent a long time in jail for crimes that they didn't commit. And some of them were on death row. And they could have been executed. And we were talking about it.

And we said, in a perfect scenario, when you absolutely know that the law has got the right person and that this person has done something. And then they have killed people, whether it's a serial killer or whatever it is. Yeah, maybe the death penalty makes sense. But we don't have a perfect legal system.

So he would take a priest that was molesting kids and just move them to another unsuspecting place.

And he went on to molest—one of these guys that they caught, went on to molest 100 deaf kids, at least 100, that they're aware of. And just go—and he knew that this guy was a pedophile.

The Catholic Church in particular is just—like, I went to Catholic school and nothing happened to me. But things did happen to people that I know that did go to Catholic school. And it's just like, is there another religion that is more connected? Like, when you hear the term Catholic priest, pedophile is right. Like, if you were playing a game, like, Catholic priest, pedophile, you know, like, you would say, that, you know.

What is that, charades? What's that game? When you know, like, you say, you know, tough, big, runs, fast, football player, yes. You know, like, you'd say, Catholic priest, pedophile. Like, you know what I'm saying?

And we sort of bullshitted our way in, and it was this creepy fucking place, man. It was like this—this sort of, like, almost Soviet-block-looking apartment. It was all half-finished. Like, there was his tomb, and there were flowers and incense and photos of him and stuff. And it was basically—after he got out of prison, eventually, as an old man, and he went to India and Pakistan and, like, drew a following of, like, Pakistani boys, basically, that are now men in their 20s and 30s.

And they occupy this sort of compound around his tomb. And the one that we sort of bullshitted our way past was starting to get, like, a little suspicious of what we were doing and of our story, which is, like, that. we were just tourists, basically, that had sort of wandered by this place and were interested by it. And all these dudes just started coming out of these—they looked like vacant buildings, but they clearly weren't. You know, all these, like, followers or kirtananda, and the translator's like, it's time to go now.

Time to go now. Time to go now. Time to go now. And so, you know, we boogied out of there. Wow.

Yeah. But he still has, like, followers, and, frankly, even within ISKCON, he still has sort of quiet supporters. Jesus. Yeah.

What is life? What are we doing here? Yeah. And for some, when someone comes along and says, I have the answers. You're like, oh, this guy's got the answers.

I need the fucking answers. Like, what are the answers?

Yeah. And attractive. You know, so it's easy to see. And maybe they do have the answers. Maybe this ancient, like, spiritual tradition is at least part of the answer.

And then there's psychos who want private jets and a giant arena to have all their followers. And they want mansions. Yeah. Yeah. Those guys are real.

And they thrive. They're everywhere.

And he was one of the dudes that, like, joined. He was in Vietnam. Vietnam combat vet. I think he saw hardcore combat in Vietnam. Came back.

Bent in the head. Was trying to find the answers. Trying to find help, probably, for PTSD. Found the Hare Krishnas. Joined.

But the first temple or two that he was at, they were like, something's a little off about this guy. So let's send him to Kirtananda. Kirtananda met this dude and was like, oh, I got a purpose for you, brother. You know, you're now enforcer number one. And so if you fucked up, if, like, you, weren't supposed to have a television or if you broke the rules or you defied Kirtananda in any way.

If you got some money from your family and you didn't kick it to him, Tirta came and paid you a visit. Okay. And when Kirtananda started whacking dudes, basically, it was Tirta that did it. You know. He just shoots you.

Yeah. He was smart. He buried Charles St. Denis's body. He diverted a little creek.

And by damming it up. And then buried the body and then took away the dam. So the homicide cop, Thomas Westfall, he was like, I was looking for that body everywhere and never thought to look under the little river, you know.

And so they got Drescher. And once he was in prison, like, Kirtananda, held a ceremony and, like, appointed him to this, like, high status within Krishna consciousness. And, of course, that was like a way to try and keep him quiet. Right. And he remained a believer.

But then there was this incident known as the Winnebago incident, where Kirtananda was riding in a Winnebago with this, like, I think it was a little boy from, like, Pakistan or India. And the, like, curtains jostled open and he was seen in full view by multiple witnesses, like, sodomizing this kid. And, like, too many people saw it to cover it up. Right. And word got to Thomas Drescher in prison that this had happened.

And he heard from enough people who he trusted and believed that this was true that he immediately flipped on Kirtananda and said, like, yeah, he paid me and ordered me to kill these guys. And here's where you can find the bodies.

But it's only when he was faced with, like, multiple people who he trusted, who were telling him we saw this. It's true. You know, and then, to his credit, I think he, he, he immediately flipped. You know, we tried to. we tried to do an interview with him, but he we couldn't get into the prison to get him to go on camera.

So we do. in the show. We do have audio interview excerpts.

And like this, one lady was like a dog walker.

You know, some of them are still followers of Krishna consciousness. Some of them, you know, have left it way behind. Right. Yeah. And have nothing good to say about it.

But some of them are still like followers of Prabhupada's teachings, you know, and they believe that Kirtananda was an aberration. I think that's probably right.

This is a possible way to live for some people that, if done correctly and done with the right spirit and the right mindset, like, really can be a beautiful, blissful way of existing.

. And I'm a one and done DMT guy. Don't need to do it again. OK. So here's my.

my DMT story is that in 1999, I was super in the rave scene and I was in London at this three day rave called The Warp. And it was the kind of party where it's like someone. ask you the time. You'd be like, it's 930.. They'd be like a.m.

or p.

m. You know, it was a great party. Right. Three days near the Tower of London, literally underground and underground party, literally underground. They had DJ rooms and dance rooms.

But they also had these live performance rooms. And I saw this performance artist called the techno pagan octopus messiah. OK. And he was. he was describing his DMT experience.

And I hadn't heard about DMT. And then. And by the way, his stuff is fantastic. I think he's, he's the he's come the closest of anybody except Terrence McKenna and actually like capturing what the DMT experience is as a writer.

Outside his performance. where the rumor is performing, there's this tent that just said deep, deep meditation therapy. I was like, oh, now I know what that means. Right. And I watch people doing DMT.

I was like, I was already rolling on three or four hits of MDMA. So I was like, well, not tonight, but if it ever comes my way, I'm going to do it. I made myself a promise that night. I'm not going to seek this out. But if it ever comes my way.

And then it did.

And in 2014,, I just went to see a buddy of mine in Brooklyn. I was working on a documentary out there and he was like, you want to try this? I was like, OK, before I change my mind, let's do this. And 15 minutes later. I believed in reincarnation.

I believed in karma and reincarnation. So I felt a lot better about death.

You get a chance to, kind of like, assess the last life you led before you take another spin on the carousel. Learn what you can, get rewarded for your good deeds, suffer for your sins, and then go back. And I believe it, but I also just like it. You know, I just like it. It feels true to me in a way that, like the evangelist or fundamentalist Christian idea of like, you can just do a bunch of bad shit.

And then, you know, promise yourself to Jesus and have a clean slate. Fuck that. I'm not buying, that, you know. But karma and reincarnation, I'm buying it.

And I think that limited ability is biological. It's kind of based upon our primate origins and what we are as a thing, as a biological entity. We have essentially the tools that we need in order to survive. And those tools are the ability to recognize danger and communicate and establish community and purpose and all these different things. But when you have, like real breakthrough, psychedelic experiences, to me it seems like it's allowing you a vision into all that exists.

Not just what you're physically capable of seeing as a human being. But this chemical gateway, or whatever it is that psychedelics give you, allows you to see that these things. What I got out of it, is that everything is connected. Every action, every thought. Your thoughts, your life, your words, your deeds, the way you approach things, the way you respond to things.

That they're all connected in some very strange way. And the living my life, the more I follow that as thinking that everything is all connected, the more my life has been more beautiful. The more my life has been more rewarding and rich and more pleasing, more filled with love and community. And it's something that I kind of need to remind myself all the time. Because I think the biological entity has certain human reward systems that are built into it.

To try to acquire resources, to try to establish dominance, to try to succeed. There's all these different things that, as a human, people want success. They want all these different things. And that those things can, kind of, because you could see the physical manifestation of that work. That that can sort of overcome the idea that everything is connected.

And so that's, I think, why people cheat on their taxes or insider trade or do all these different things. Fuck people over in business deals. And they don't think that they're going to experience any negative consequences of it. But I don't think anybody gets away free.

Yeah. But we don't have an operator's manual. Right. Which is crazy. So we're essentially running on this primate software.

That was really established. It's almost like we have DOS or Windows 95. And we just keep refreshing it. There's no real new operating system. And it's so filled with flaws.

The human operating system is designed to ward off predators. And to fight off neighboring tribes. And to try to avoid starvation. And to try to make sure that your genes pass on. And that your enemy's genes don't.

And to exist in 2024 in modern western world. With all of our technology. And all of our knowledge. And all of the information that we have available. With this ancient primate software.

Yeah. It's so problematic. It's so fraught with peril. There's so many things that can go wrong. So many people that go sideways.

Drug addiction. And gambling addiction. And sex addiction. And this addiction. And that addiction.

And so much chaos. And thievery. And violence. And deception. And fraud.

There's just so many things that exist that are negative. But are tied to this concept of achieving and getting more. Which is this famine based mentality. This resource acquiring mentality. That really is like the monkey stealing your sunglasses so it can get mangoes.

I'm going to give you a lot of information. You're not going to be able to retain most of it. But you're ready? Here we go. And one of the things that I brought back that I still believe a decade later.

Is that reincarnation is real. That's how it works. Karma is real. That's how it works. What you do in this life affects your next one.

And that also gives you the user's guide you're talking about. About how to be a better person. How to be a better species.

And there's maybe levels of existence. And that this existence that we're experiencing right now as human beings. It's just very strange, confusing. Almost like a puzzle. That you are on this planet trying to solve.

And you can get distracted. You can get distracted by all sorts of things in this life. But the things that bring you happiness and love. You have to sort those out. And choose those.

Amongst the different options that the puzzle gives you.

And he asked me to give you a message. Because I guess two or three months ago. You were musing about whether or not he was still alive. Because he hadn't posted any new episodes recently. He is still alive.

That's his message. Lorenzo's message. And after he heard that you'd raised that question. He's been posting.

On a documentary about the stoned ape theory. I think it's going to be dope.

And the ability to form language and concepts and creativity. And all the different things that Terrence talked about. But Dennis is a hardcore, fact-based scientist.

But there's about to be just a glut of AI animation movies. Even in documentaries. I think AI animation is going to replace recreations. Where they hire actors to recreate stuff. We did it in Krishna's.

We recreated murder scenes. Using actors and firearms and stuff. Prop firearms. So I've been approached with. I don't even know how many ideas.

For AI animation docs. It's just been gimmick, gimmick, gimmick. But this one really felt right. A, I think that Terrence McKenna would have loved the idea. Of using AI animation.

To show the evolution of our species. As they pick the mushrooms out of the cow, shit and stuff. And also one idea that we're toying with. I think we'll go forward with. Now that we've actually.

I think we've got the technology actually dialed in. Where we built this AI world. This Terrence McKenna AI world. Where we can give it ideas. And it'll spit back imagery to us.

That feels right. Is building some sort of AI avatar of Terrence McKenna. So the idea is that the spine of the documentary. Will be anytime. Because Lorenzo has incredible archives of Terrence McKenna.

Stuff that nobody else has.

Of what he's describing. So you're hearing Terrence McKenna's voice. But seeing AI.

There was climate change. And that these rainforests. Tropical rainforests. Had receded into grasslands. And that these primates.

Had started experimenting with different food sources. By flipping over cow patties. And looking for grubs. And all these different things. And one of the things that they would do.

Is probably test the mushrooms. That were growing in the cow patties. And in many places. Where psilocybin exists. These things are extremely prevalent.

Like my friend Duncan. Who grew up in Asheville, North Carolina. Told me that mushrooms were so prevalent. That the local ranchers. They started putting feed in.

With the cattle feed. Some sort of anti-fungal thing. To keep fungus from growing in cow shit. Because so many kids were going out to the field.

Increase visual acuity. Make people more amorous. So it probably heightened sexual arousal. Made people more likely to breed. And made people more curious.

Probably because of the increase in visual acuity. Made people better hunters. There's studies that have been done. I forget what the scientist. It was a hardcore.

Non-psychedelic scientist. Who did studies on edge detection. With patients. You know these studies? And it showed that people.

Under the influence of psilocybin. Can detect deviants. So if you have two parallel lines. And one slightly deviates from parallel. The people on psilocybin.

Can predict it much quicker. Can see it much quicker. Than the people not on psilocybin.

When they play certain sports. And they think that psilocybin. Low doses.

Really? Absolutely. Interesting. Now, I don't know if I buy the stone date theory. In the same way that I fully buy into.

You know. The concept of the bardo. And reincarnation. Karma and all that. But.

It's sure fucking fun to think about man.

And dimethyltryptamine. Are very closely related. Yeah. You know. I think.

I think when it's broken down. I think. I think that it's the same. I'm gonna fuck this up. But I think it's N, N, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4..

4-phoraloxy, N, N, dimethyltryptamine. That's like. It's very close. To what dimethyltryptamine is. And you know.

We also know that dimethyltryptamine is endogenously produced. You know it's produced in the human brain. Yeah. We don't. We don't understand why.

And you know. That's Rick Strassman who wrote that book. Yeah. DMT, spirit molecules. Yeah.

about that, and they've done a lot of great research at the Cottonwood Research Foundation trying to determine where it's produced, why it's produced. They used to think it was just produced by the pineal gland. Now they think, I believe, it's produced by the whole brain. And this thing that these primates were finding was giving them that, and giving them more of an understanding of the world around them and expanding the brain. And the other thing about the concept of the stone-dape theory.

is this bizarre fact in the history of humans that in the entire species, like the record of species, one of the biggest mysteries is the doubling of the human brain size over a period of two million years. And McKenna says that that coincides with this exact same time period, where the tropical rainforests were receding into grasslands, and then they believe that these primates were experimenting on new food sources. So there's all these things that sort of line up with it, and it makes it a fascinating idea. But if you think about, if they found out that this thing gives them this feeling, and they're repeatedly using it over and over and over again, and then their offspring did it, and their offspring did it, and you're playing this out over a couple million years, you could see how this.

Yeah, glossolalia, yeah. Yeah, thank you. You know, like high doses, like, activates the language center. So, like I said, I'm not sure I buy it, but, you know, it should be a fun movie to make.

Yeah. And also, there's people that can achieve those states without psychedelics, which is fascinating. And I've gotten pretty close with some breathing exercises, and especially breathing exercises in sensory deprivation. You can achieve some definite psychedelic states. I haven't had the full visual effects that are available with DMT, but, boy, you definitely get to some bizarre place where, if it was a drug, it would be a.

And what.

. They're chanting of, like, ancient sacred mantras and meditation. Yeah.

Yeah. Because you're so blown away by it all, it's hard to just not just go, what the fuck, like, every five seconds. Yeah. Yeah. You've.

reason, right? You know, like, that's my dad. Yeah. Super smart, like, mathematical genius, was my dad. And he was like, well, it sounds interesting, but I guess, if you're right, I'll find out on my own.

Because I was like, this is kind of like the trailer for the movie, Dad. Interesting. I'll find out on my own. Yeah. Interesting.

So, yeah, he died, like, two weeks ago while I was in Ukraine. Oh, wow. Yeah. What were you doing in Ukraine? I was reporting.

I was working. I wasn't filming, but I was doing some research. And I was in a, I was in a war zone. I mean, the whole fucking country's a war zone. But I was in a war zone where, like, communications were dicey at best.

And I got a text message from my wife on signal. It was like, your dad's heart valve is failing rapidly. He's in the hospital. He's probably got like 48 hours to live. And the airspace over Ukraine's closed.

So there's no way that I could get from where I was in Ukraine to Anchorage, Alaska to be with him. And so I was just sending, like, text messages on signal to the nurses that were, and they were reading them to him. Wow. Yeah. And then I was able to record one voice memo, like, right as he was going, because the last sense to go when you're dying is sense of hearing.

And they played him like a, like a message from me. Wow. So, but to answer your question, but what was I doing in Ukraine?

I'm looking into a possible documentary that would be set against the backdrop of the current war. But that would be more about, like, what is actually the true nature of corruption in Ukraine? And what has it been? And what was it in the 90s? You know?

Yeah. And what is it today? And like, how has the US State Department kind of fucked up again, in the same way that we did in Vietnam and every war, like Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq,

There's not one. Right. There's not one. Right. And, you know, when there was so much resistance to the concept that Ukraine was corrupt, when we first started backing them, you know, that was what was fascinating to me, because it was always talked about how corrupt Ukraine was.

It was always talked about. And then, all of a sudden, this was a foreboding topic. Like, no, Russia is the aggressor and the invader, and Ukraine are their angels. And like, wait a minute, you know, this is not...that's not reality.

the US government would be like, okay, we would sort of designate who was corrupt and who wasn't. I mean, look, the US went through its own sort of oligarchy, like robber baron phase, you know, in the late 1800s. I was like, after we'd been a democracy for 100 years, it's not...unfortunately, it's kind of a step on the evolution of free democracies to have this phase where you're like, you know, things are super corrupt. Like, I spent some time at an Orthodox monastery in Ukraine last month, and I asked the head of the monastery, like, what would you have to do to get rid of corruption in this country? He's like, well, I'm a man of God.

You know, he's speaking through an interpreter. He's like, I'm a man of God, so I'm not advocating this. But what you could do is you could take...because the main problem in Ukraine right now, as I understand it, is the judicial system. They have what they call telephone law, which is basically like before a judge makes a ruling, he gets a phone call telling him which way to rule. And so he's...the head of this monastery, he's like, you can line up every judge and shoot them.

And then all the judges or all the, like, government officials that come to their funerals, shoot them and do that two or three times. And then we might be able to start over. Like, he was saying, that's how systemic this is.

. Jesus.

I just like the Ukrainians, you know, in a way that I've been to other former Soviet bloc countries. And it's kind of like, I won't name any of them, but I just feel like, I'm not sure you guys are really down with the freedom and democracy thing, you know? It seems like you've been...you were subjugated for a while and you don't...I just didn't get the same vibe. Like, I think the Ukrainians are legitimately freedom-loving people, okay? That have been, like, under the thumb of corrupt leadership for decades now.

part of it was, there was something very enthralling about being in a place where everyone was so unified, like this country under attack, being invaded by a hostile force. Now, the Ukrainians have stayed behind, okay? But there's still a lot of them. I mean, and just that in coming from America, where everything is so splintered and divided now, and to be in a place where everyone is so on the same page, there's something very attractive about that.

. Yeah.

Everybody was friendly. It was crazy. It was like everybody was just so blown away by the experience of being attacked, and so just shaken out of it, and so aware of how fortunate they were to not be one of those people who died, and that we are legitimately all together, and that there are forces out there that are evil, and that we have to stay united. And I hate to think that that's what's required to wake people up from this division. But I wonder if maybe the division that we have in this country is because of the fact that we're never attacked, and because of the fact that we only experienced a few of the Pearl Harbor, 9-11..

There's only a few of these moments where we've had to wake up.

Yeah. That's actually American territory.

. But, I mean, we fucking...man, I mean, the Ukrainians, they had nuclear weapons, and in 1994, the quote-unquote West, the US and the UK, basically convinced them to give up their nukes in exchange for a guarantee that we would help them protect their sovereign territory.

There's the NATO encroaching on Russia's territory.

Right. Nothing against Lithuanians, but fuck, man. This is getting serious.

I've been like.

under fire would be overdramatic, but I've had quite a few Iranian fucking Shaheed drones launched in my general direction recently. It gives you another perspective on, like, you know, Russia's support for Iran and vice versa, you know, like mutual enemy of ours. Like those, are Iranian fucking drones being shot at us. And I don't know, you know, Russia recently had Hamas, like, have a delegation from Hamas visit the Kremlin. I mean, what the fuck, man?

Really? Yeah. So anyway...

if we, sort of like, showed our ass and backed down, you know, if Putin keeps going, is, then China may just test that red line, right? With Taiwan.

Because that's what Putin was so adamant against. And you understand, I mean, I think he's a war criminal, fucking power, mad, you know, asshole, right? But you can sort of see from his perspective, if you look at a map and you start to see all these NATO countries around Russia, you kind of see, you know, what motivates them.

And why? And how much money is being spent? Right. And where's that money going? Right.

Yeah. And who's got a vested interest in keeping that money flowing? Yeah. That's where it gets scary.

You're not. Right. You're both just grabbing billions with both hands.

It's like you. ask them, do you support the president? They say, yes. Like we're at war. Would you vote for him?

No.

We're just like mowing these guys. It's not even really combat. We're just mowing these guys down until we run out of bullets and then we have to retreat. You know, those are the battles. That's what Putin's able to do.

Because he's got so many guys.

Well, he's off, Putin is offering deals like sign up where it's like, you know, more money than they make in a year per month, A, and then B, if you're killed, your family's set up for life. They can buy a house, you know, whatever. Yeah. So very attractive offers for these really poor people from rural Russia.

It's 30,000.

. I don't know what the numbers are. What, what's, what's the line that keeps you from dropping a nuke that kills 300,000?. What's the line? Like?

when, at what, when, you know, why, why are we, why do we have this idea that it won't accelerate to that when it has in the past? That's just because it only did, we only did it once in Japan in 1945.. Is that, that what it is?

And Tucker just looked baffled. I was, I, I got it. I actually thought I'm getting an insight into Putin's motivations and the way that he sees himself, which is a historic figure. He sees himself as someone who's going to restore a Russian empire. He like spends all day in the halls of the Kremlin with, like, you know, portraits of Ivan the Terrible and Catherine the Great, right?

And I think that he's seeing himself as not the leader of a, you know, a free country, certainly, but someone's who's going to restore a Russian empire. So no, I absolutely do not think he will stop with Ukraine. No way. So then, if he doesn't, and then he invades a NATO country and we go up against him, man, those documents leaked recently from Russia that were showing what their lines were for when they would start using quote, unquote, tactical nukes. And, you know, I think he'd do it.

I think he'd do it. I don't think he will. What are the lines? Well, they were, whatever, if they started to lose a certain percentage of troops, I can't recall the specifics, but they were like shockingly, shockingly liberal on when they would start to use tactical nukes on the battlefield in Europe. You know, like if they started to have certain percentages of battlefield losses, we're not in the current situation, but like, as they go further into Ukraine, or in, you know, or in a war that came into Russian territory.

So I just think, you know, we should stop this shit now. This shit being Putin.

Your guess is a good one. Director of Carnegie Russia Eurasia Center in Berlin. They show that the operational threshold for using nuclear weapons is pretty low if the desired result can't be achieved through conventional means. Russia's tactical nuclear weapons, which can be delivered by land or sea launched missiles from, or from an aircraft, are designed for limited battlefield use in Europe and Asia, as opposed to the larger strategic weapons intended to target U.S. modern tactical warheads, can still release significantly more energy than the weapons dropped on Nagasaki in Hiroshima in 1945..

Although the files date back 10 years or more, experts claim they remain relevant to current Russian military doctrine. The documents were shown to the FT by Western sources.

S.

, gave Ukraine in 1994.

. 2014,, right, there was that revolution in Ukraine. And in response, Putin invaded Crimea with the little green man, the guys that didn't have an insignia. And the U.S. State Department went to, and Ukraine was going to fight.

And the U.

S. State Department went to Kiev and was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, chill out, chill out, chill out. Just let him have Crimea. We'll make sure he stops there. Let's not escalate things.

Okay. So we gave him our word a second time and then we broke it. So, to answer your question, I think that that territory that Putin has seized, my impression from talking with a lot of Ukrainians in recent weeks has been that that they feel like Ukraine could still be Ukraine without that territory. Like the people, like, basically, like you could have, like a three-week period where people could either move there if they want to be Russians, or they can leave if they want to be Ukrainians. And then you could have a kind of a North Korea, South Korea, DMZ kind of situation.

I think that's probably the best possible outcome right now. But even to do that, again, we've got to properly arm the Ukrainians so that they can stop Putin from moving further into their country and actually taking territory that they could not live without. So do you think ultimately he plans on taking all of Ukraine? Yes. A hundred percent.

I think he's a hundred percent. I mean, it was when I was in Kiev and I went to how close the fighting actually got to the capital city, it was shocking how close it was. Like that town Butcha, where there was all those atrocities committed. I mean, there was this I saw this one auto, this like massive graveyards of like automobiles. And what happened was people were trying to get out of this town as the Russian troops, the Russian, because they invaded from Belarus, from the north, and they came in and they're trying to go like lightning strike on Kiev.

And they got within, I think, 10, 12 kilometers of the city. And then they got stopped because the guys started blowing bridges, special forces started blowing bridges and hitting them with javelins and stuff. And they actually stopped them, like incredibly brave fighting. But there's this one, just like I came across this just pile of just hundreds of blown up cars. And I asked the locals about it.

And some of them have been like painted now with, you know, sunflowers and, you know, Slava, Ukraine, Glory to Ukraine. And artists are trying to make this less sort of macabre. But what it was, was when the Russians invaded two years ago, like hundreds of families piled in their cars, and there was one road out of town. But it was a trap. And the Russians cut it off on both sides.

And then, methodically, using tanks, blew up these cars full of civilians.

Just brutal shit. And I know there's still like brutal shit on all sides in all wars. Yeah, but to see it firsthand, like that, you know, to talk to people that thought that happened was.

I came. Yeah, I came out. Yes, that's it. I went in. I came out through Poland.

And I went in through Romania. And I just like those cars. Yeah. Oh, man. Oh, my god.

So I flew to Bucharest and then drove about 10 hours to the border and then, just like walked across with my duffel bag and US passport. It's really easy to get in. Just across. Yeah, walked right across. It was like five minutes.

Did you have it set up already to talk to people? I did. I had set up security. I had really good security. These guys are like Special Forces guys, a tank hunting team, actually, that had just rotated off the front after fighting for two years.

And we're, you know, so, basically, like keeping me alive as a vacation for them. But they were really and I got to be really good friends with this one dude, especially the guy that was like, because they worked in different ways. It was a team that, like there was one guy that was like attached to my hip. He was just with me, 24, seven, whose name was Andre. And I got to be really good buddies with this guy, just using like Google Translate, you know, even when the interpreter wasn't around, just like, really click with this guy anyway.

But yeah, I did have it set up where I had an interpreter, you know, a driver and security. And then I had, you know, conversations that I'd lined up. But a lot of it was people had documents or people had information that the only way I was going to get these documents, or have them tell me this information was to go to Ukraine. There's the only way they.

People are out, dressed nicely, going to dinner, going to bars, going to clubs, like they're out and about, you know, and then all of a sudden the air raid sirens go off. And, and then there's this, there's this app that I, that I like, jokingly texted my wife, I was like, this is the worst video game ever. Because it's this app that that shows you what's incoming, like what kind of missiles, and how many, and what kind of drones, and how many. And then, as the air defense system shoot them down, they like blip off the screen, you know, so you can like see like, this shit's coming your way. And like, how many are they shooting down?

It's like the worst version of missile command, because you can't actually do anything, right? But yet you're watching it. And in real time. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

God. So, and it's just an app, you can get free phone. Yeah. Yeah. Well, the security guys had it.

I don't know if anybody, everybody has an app on their phone that alerts them when there's.

I don't know. Great question. Is this an app? that's? Is it Windows?

And all of a sudden, it's like air raid, air raid missiles incoming, you know, like seek shelter. So it's, if anybody wants to experience what it's like to be a Ukrainian right now, you can download this app. Was it called? Take a look. Is it available for all phones?

Yeah, anybody? Yes, anybody can get it. I may have taken it off, actually. But I'm sure if you just like Google, like Ukrainian, you know, air raid app. Did you take it off?

Because you're tired of seeing air raids? Yes. Yeah. I didn't want that. I didn't want it to sound anymore.

So I mean, you can, you can pick which parts of the country you want it to alert you to. But yeah, I mean, it was. it was. there was one day where the security guys were like, it's not safe to drive from where we were to Kiev tomorrow. So that's the bad news.

Because every night we would have a go, no go, kind of meeting for the next day. And that was the one time that they were like, no go, no go too much. shit's going on. It's not safe to drive, you know, eight hours to Kiev. Good news is, it's snowing in the Carpathian Mountains.

So we're gonna go skiing. I was like, what? And so the next day, we did. we like drove five hours for the mountains. And there's this full on ski resort.

And there's just people like the hundreds of families out skiing. And there's the fucking war going on. And it's in. it's like a day of a nationwide rate alert, red alert, which means that, like missiles were hitting all over. And so people are watching this app on their phone.

And you can see the stuff that's coming, you know, to the Oblast, which is like a state, you know, that we're in. And, as the stuff is being shot down, like, people are like cheering from the chairlifts. Oh, my God. Yeah. Oh, my God.

It's like that that fucking, fuck you spirit that.

And I had he's a kickboxing coach, my friend Shuki. And when he was living in America, he lives in Israel now. But when he was living in America, I went over his house for dinner and him and his wife, they'd be playing the bongos and dancing, and and I'm like, you guys are, like you have so much spirit, like you're so filled with fun. Yeah. And he's like, my friend when you live in Israel, he goes every day like you could die.

There's. every day is party party. Have a good time. Enjoy your life. Yeah.

And it's like, the same kind of thing. Unfortunately, like post 911.. Like you need something horrible to happen for you to appreciate the good and appreciate peace and appreciate joy. Yeah. And that's what's.

that's a crazy thought. is that the thing that's going to cure what ails us is conflict and getting together and banding together to fight a common evil,

That's true. I mean, that's one of the things that astronauts always talk about when they go to the space station. So you look down on the earth and you go, Oh, my God, what are we doing? How are we in conflict with each other over lines in the dirt, imaginary lines in the dirt that we create? For what?

Like, who's doing this? And why are we doing this? We should all be together. We're this one species that can communicate with each other, attached to this ball that's hurling through infinity. And yet our territorial primate instincts have us engaged in this insane conflict that no one thinks is ever going to end.