Flightless Bird: Taylor Swift

Okay,

Yes.

Because we thought about American heroes, but American heroes sounds too earnest. Yeah. And that is not us. It's not us. We are not earnest.

Sometimes they will be. They could be political figures. Leaders. Exactly.

They are Americans who have been elevated within the world of society and pop culture to the level of God.

Yes. And we just want to deep dive into them and also what's made them become godly to us.

Because I mean, we're all trying to do good in life. Yeah. But some people do ascend to the status where everyone knows their name. The reasons they ascend can be good. They can be bad.

We decided we would start with a goddess.

A goddess. Yes.

That I personally elevate. I do elevate to... I don't. I don't. You do.

Yeah. The name is slightly tongue-in-cheek. It is. We don't think these people are literal gods.

We don't. But people do. People do. People do.

Who are we going to talk about?

Miss Tay.

Taylor Swift.

Taylor Swift.

Taylor Swift.

I mean, we've been talking about Taylor on and off for like a year at this point. And also, you've been teasing that we might do a Fightless Bird on her. Yes.

That's kind of where this came from. Because I did. I had an idea of doing a Taylor Swift episode. So I bought tickets to her documentary. I went to the Grove at about 7 p.m.

Okay.

And so we're elevating her to god status. And we're going to just bring our thoughts to the table about this woman. Because I think we have slightly differing thoughts about Taylor. Should we just start with you? I want to know about your relationship with this woman.

I remember hearing Tim McGraw, her first hit. that hit the radio. And I remember hearing that. On the actual radio? I heard it on the radio.

I love this.

Yes. In Georgia. So it might have been on a country station.

So how old would have you have been?

In my head, I was in college, but I can't be. This is like one of those where the memory...

No, everything starts to blur.

Because let me look up when that song came out.

Because that's the thing. We forget that she's been around for a while.

For so long.

With a lot of output.

She genre hopped, right? She was originally country.

She was country.

Country girl.

And then became country. pop, and then pop.

And then further into the career with folklore and evermore, more of a, what's it called? Just keeps changing.

Folky.

Folky, yeah. Folky.

She brought Justin Vernon in from Bon Iver for some of that.

Exactly. So. she's hopped. She's really bounced her way. And that's incredible, right?

I feel every musician, every artist I like too, they stick to a genre. They never move. And to be able to move around genre, it is. It's a crazy ability to have.

Okay. So Tim McGraw came out in 2006.. So that, I'm right.

Is that an album or a song? It's a song.

Okay.

And a singer.

Oh, really? A song about a singer, yes. Wait, do you not know that? No.

I don't know who this, I don't know what his name is. No. Who's Tim McGraw?

He's a huge country star.

All right. Okay.

Oh, my God.

Wait, so the song's not with him. It's about him?

Yeah. It's about him.

Oh, I thought they had a duet. No.

As long as you've heard of him. All right.

Okay. The song is called Tim McGraw, and it's-.

An ode to this man. Are you a fan of Tim McGraw? I was. Okay.

I mean, this is also fascinating because I grew up in the South, so I knew Tim McGraw. The idea that you guys don't know who that is, or you do-.

I know who he is. Yeah. I'm not a- Yeah.

Is actually shocking to me.

Yeah. So country as a genre is something, from New. Zealand, look, there are country musicians in New, Zealand, certainly, but they're not, you don't make a living out of being a country musician generally in New Zealand.

You need to apply this bird on country music.

And it's a genre, I need to do it. I do, don't I? Yes. So I need to go to, what's the ground zero for country town? Tennessee.

Has a ton of, and she did. She went to Nashville as a young kid.

This is so obvious. It's something I haven't thought about doing as a topic, and literally until now.

It'll be so fun. Yeah, cool. If you go to a honky tonk bar in Nashville, they're so fun.

Country music's great.

I have such an affinity for it, and that's where she started. And so I heard Tim McGraw, and I liked it, but I wasn't enamored by her or anything.

It's a catchy song.

Catchy song, young girl, new artist, cool. And that's sort of how I felt about her always. I've always liked her and always think her music is very catchy. But the level, it skyrocketed last year.

It did, right?

It did.

It's hit some kind of cultural moment where it's like when we talk about AI hitting, this moment where suddenly it's just going to become so smart overnight. It feels like that happened to Taylor. She was already big.

She was already huge, but this is God status. And I think something happened. I mean, I want to give credit to her because she's an impeccable businesswoman, and I deeply respect her. I want to pick her brain so badly. But I think what really happened is women in her age, me, I'm a couple years older than her.

So she's sort of aligned with this moment, this big shift.

She's become a mascot for a strong woman. And it's this millennial female, I think, that has, look, to be honest, is smart, works. I don't know the stats, but my guess is the percentage of millennial women who work is extremely high. We have money. A lot of us are not in relationships or marriage rate is falling.

And that's interesting because that's so much of her stuff is relatable, right? Because it is generally about her lived experience with relationships. So that's a big part of her thing, right?

A lot of it is about her relationships, but her experience in the relationship. It's not like a general love song.

Right.

It's about her. And therefore, it's about me. It's about a woman of that age. I also have heard this thing, and I don't know if it's true, but I believe it, that my generation, give or take five years, like within this, I guess, millennial, but not full millennial. My brother's a millennial.

I see. Yeah, it's like this dramatic shift.

Exactly.

That we look back to that time almost.

Yeah. We have a nostalgia for a time before, whereas Gen X has that too, but it's different because technology hit once they were past.

Yeah. Yeah. We remember the before times.

Exactly.

Yeah. The internet wasn't as, wasn't. Yeah. I mean, I remember, because I'm 41.. I remember being 16 and 17 and yeah, like we were just getting phones and shit.

Exactly. But we had enough time for it to impact our social lives.

You're right.

And impact the way we communicated with people, but enough time before it too. So anyway, so I've read that before. I've heard that before. It really rings true. And I think the eras tour made this nostalgic generation reflect on like.

And go, holy shit.

Yes. On all of our own eras.

Coming of age for a lot of people.

I guess. Yeah.

I know. I hadn't thought about the construction of that tour as actually being that important. Obviously, I was thinking, oh, she's looking back through her career. But when you look at it with that frame, you're like, what a masterful thing to do. Cause you've got an entire audience going on this incredibly emotional ride, thinking about their own lives, as well as like, oh my God, there's that song I like.

Exactly.

Wait, just quickly, Rob, what's your relationship? And we don't need to be honest here. Cause I'm. With Taylor. Yeah.

I don't listen to her music. But I respect her as a musician. Like she, even this last tour, she brought out a lot of really cool female artists. She had Phoebe Bridgers out.

Oh, you love Phoebe. Yeah.

Hairmore, Gracie Abrams, the Heim sisters. Doing stuff with Bonafair, which I like Bonafair. So musically, I respect her. I was never into country and I'm not into country pop. So for me it was never something I listened to.

But. Have you seen a Taylor Swift show? Have you been?

No.

Right. I've been to one. I went to one in New Zealand. Red. Was that an album?

Oh yeah. Red.

I think just after red. She came, whatever that was. She came. So a lot of the show felt country, but then it was like also during her. Oh no, here's a pop star.

Kelsey.

That I find. Look, I find it hilarious. I find it fascinating. It's like prom to me. It's like my idea of what prom is.

You think it's too on the nose. Kind of.

I'm like, I feel like it's too American. So I want to know about how you feel about this. Because I also come from reading a few headlines and watching them kissing on a big screen at the football.

Well, what you don't know, but which is actually very interesting. as an observer, she does not identify as the prom queen at all. And that her early eras.

Yeah.

Yeah. You know, her like Speak Now, era, and some of her huge early songs are about that. I mean, there's a whole song saying she's your captain and I'm on the bleachers.

All right. Yeah.

Like she, is the girl on the bleachers. She's not.

She's the outsider. Yeah. She's not that person.

Yes. And it's hilarious because of course, she's the prom queen right now of the world. But for her, she is not. She is the girl who couldn't get the football star. Right.

Yeah. It's not what she set out to do. So it's kind of surreal that she's the one that is in this position.

Well, it's like I wasn't ever able to have this and now I can't. And so I think a lot of people who have been following her for a long time, they connect with that. It's like, oh my God, she's with the football star. Like she wanted that, or manifest that, or whatever.

So it's like an aspirational thing. I think so.

Yeah. I have my own opinions on Travis.

Because he's also exploded recently, right? Like. I read this amazing article about him and maybe I should bring this in for part two. I need to reread it, but it was basically the making of him and how he has this, as everyone who, like makes it in this town has, has a team, and how they very carefully constructed his entire life. But the wild card is they never expected the day something to happen.

Which everyone's doing.

It's America. It's America.

I mean, I think it actually is more than just America at this point, but definitely very American too. We're all brands now. I mean, it's bizarre.

That's what social media has given us, right? Exactly. Just so quickly, Travis. And again, I know nothing here. Is he like a good, wholesome guy?

He's a man's man. He's a classic football player.

A good football player.

He's a good player.

He was good before Taylor.

Yeah.

The only thing I don't like about that narrative, or the narrative that I spelled out, which is, oh my gosh, she was a girl on the bleachers and now she got the football star, which I believe in my heart, she thinks, right? Like she feels excited that.

That this is happening. Yeah.

She got the most popular guy in high school.

Yeah.

But what I find upsetting is no, no, no, no, no. He got the most popular person in the whole world. Like he, is the one winning here.

Yeah.

And I want that to be the narrative. And that's because that's the truth.

Yeah. Well, you're right. Because the number of new fans that that team or that football has come in through her, right? Yes. It's the biggest peak in people's interests in football and forever.

She is the get.

Not him. Yeah. Totally. Which you don't often see. Exactly.

Well, and it's sad that that's the narrative for her.

And look, that's what my belief is. As someone who I can sort of relate to, that, I can relate to that feeling of like, well, I'm never going to be on homecoming quarter. I'm never going to like, that's not me. That's not my position in this world. And then to find yourself in it.

You're like, holy mack.

Yeah. You're going to like, try to have all those things you couldn't have. Yeah. I don't know really what's going on in her mind, but I want her to know that she's the get.

Totally. Yeah. Because it's sort of clear to the rest of the world. I think so. I agree with you completely.

Yeah. Let's talk about our favorite songs.

Okay. The record I like is 1989..

Beautiful record.

I don't like Shake It Off. I think that song's annoying. Everything else on that record, I like. It's the only record of hers I've listened to all the way through and that I really enjoy. That's it.

You haven't listened to any of the new, like the ones during the pandemic?

I've listened to nothing. Okay. So, look, for part two, what should I listen? What should I go away?

I don't think I've listened. Like, I've heard, obviously, songs.

Okay.

Give Rob and I a different album each that we can go and.

Oh, and then deep dive in?

Yeah, that we can just listen and think about a bit and come back with.

I would like to give you guys a list right now of songs to make a playlist.

Songs would be great.

Okay. So, I have one, to be fair. I already have one.

What's it called?

It's the same list or we each get our own list.

I think you should do the same list so that we can.

Yeah, that's good.

I made a list of songs for someone I was dating for a minute.

This is really nice. Okay, what brought this... And apologies, you've talked about this before, but like, what brought on that? Were you like, they didn't know Taylor, and you were like, listen to this, motherfucker.

Basically, this person and I had different musical interests and we were talking about that.

What genre did they like? What were they into?

They were going to a concert. Okay. We had a date before they were going to this concert and I didn't know who that person was.

Yeah.

And so, they were informing me on that person and then they said, what do you like? What do you listen to? And I was like, well, pretty much...

Here's a hundred Taylor Swift songs.

Pretty much Taylor at this point, exclusively. He said, kind of what Rob is saying. I respect her. I like her theory, but I don't really know. And I think he said, I'll send you these songs, you send me.

This is really nice. I like this.

So, it didn't work out with him.

But the playlist remains.

The playlist remains. And then I made one for Callie because she also was like, I need to get more in.

Give us maybe five.

Oh, five. No, I'm giving you a lot more than that.

I think each taking an album is maybe good too. Between the three of us. Yeah, absolutely.

It's like when you did your list of.

You can't just do five.

I'm going to read, because maybe our listeners will want to also make this playlist. This is my playlist. This was the one I made for Callie. Dress. Bad Blood, featuring Kendrick Lamar.

I love Kendrick.

Don't Blame Me. I Know Places, Taylor's version. All Too Well, 10 minute version, Taylor's version.

10 minutes?

Yeah. New Romantics, Taylor's version. My Tears Ricochet, which is my favorite Taylor Swift song of all time.

Of all time, okay.

Clean, which is in my top five. The One. Better Man, Taylor's version. Speak Now, Taylor's version. Dear John, Taylor's version.

Lover.

No, these are the best songs. Look, she has so many.

Yeah, absolutely. She's prolific.

I'm going to read these, but I'm going to send this to you. Okay, so you guys don't have to write it down. I got most of them. I'm going to send them to you. Okay, Antihero, Exile, Invisible String, The Last Great American Dynasty, Cardigan, Cruel Summer, Lover, Delicate, Willow, Tis, the Damn Season, Enchanted, Taylor's version, Fearless, Taylor's version, Wildest Dreams, Taylor's version, and Blank Space.

You'll get the career. You'll get the era.

You'll get the whole thing.

Okay, cool.

Now, if I was going to assign you both albums.

Can I pick mine?

That doesn't feel.

I'm just thinking, the one that I'll probably enjoy the most would be Folklore.

I think so. I would have assigned you, Folklore.

Yeah, that's your kind of bullshit, rock.

It's so good. It's my favorite album. Don't say that, David.

Did Jack Antonoff do that one, too?

It's my favorite. Okay. It's so good. Now, for you...

Can you give me, maybe like a country one, because it's something I haven't heard of hers and I don't know much about country?

That was so long ago.

Okay, give me something. You know me. I like...

We want to cover the eras, right?

Cover the eras.

Well, we can't cover the eras with just two albums. Well, that's why you have...

Why mean the eras of Taylor?

Oh, well, I know, but I know David specifically isn't going to like early eras.

What is an album I actually like? I like 89, like 1989, felt like full of bangers. Is there something like that that I'd like?

I mean, maybe you should do Reputation. Okay.

Is that earlier than 89 or that came later?

I think it's right after.

Okay, I'll do Reputation.

Do Reputation. Okay. But then, if you get really hooked and you want to go back in time, do Speak Now.

Okay. And what's our assignment on this? This is... Listen, but then like...

Put a researcher on the record.

She made it, what it was about.

Yeah. I think we listen to the record and we come back with some intel.

Come back with new thoughts.

I want to surprise Monica with something that she doesn't know.

Oh, I would like that.

To do with these records. That's what I want to do.

One thing for you to consider as you're listening and doing your research. Taylor is a writer on every single song she has ever put out, which is incredible.

Yeah.

It's incredible.

Yeah, it is, completely.

And she, to me, the music, great. Her voice, great. It's the lyrics.

Yeah, the writing. Well, I think that's what connects, right? She's got this thing, obviously, where she can connect with her fan base in a really personal way. And the lyrics are that. All her communications are like that.

Wait, wait, what album are you doing?

Oh, I mean, I'm always doing, do you want to give me, I mean, I'm always listening to all of them.

You are. Okay, I'm going to think of some activity you have to do.

Okay.

I just haven't thought of it yet.

Like a GWAR album or something? No. Comparing, contrast it to.

Absolutely not. I will next time also highlight a couple of my favorite lyrics.

Okay.

And I kind of want you guys to come with some lyrics you liked.

Okay. Lyric sharing. Yeah. I think that's really nice. Part two.

She's been pretty like.

Talk more.

It's silent as far as her political.

Normally, except she was outspoken before the last election or.

Yeah. And I think she's urging people to vote. Exactly. But yeah, I'm curious. I want to look a bit more.

I want to think about that. Especially in this current fucking world we live in that is so polarized.

Yeah. Way to get some death threats is probably to come and be outspoken about politics, which is just an interesting position that she's in, because she will have beliefs. At what point do you put those into the world?

And at what point? is her being a unifying force, which she is, more important than her, creating more divide? You know what I mean? It's complicated.

Yeah, it is. I just think there's not many individuals that could do a tweet that could sway the outcome of the election. I find that fascinating. So I want to think about that a bit more for part two.

And the responsibility of that.

I feel like if it was more middle ground between the candidates, then it would be less of a thing. Yeah. But it seems so dire.

Well, that's what she did say about Trump.

Yeah, completely. Yeah, it's a bit murkier this time around.

Yeah. Knowing, you have that power and don't use it.

I cannot believe we're here. I cannot believe we're here.

No, it is. I mean, that's why she's a perfect starting point, because she's this giant pop figure who also has a lot of influence over who governs this country. So yeah, in part two, let's come back with some lyrics. Yeah. I'm going to listen to some of that stuff.

Can you guys please watch the doc as well?

Oh, my gosh, stop.

No, I've been to the heiress thing. I've been to the movies.

No, no, no, no, not the heiress tour. I can't do a doc as well. Miss Americana, it's so good. If you want to know about her, you have to.

Got to watch Miss Americana?

Yeah. Okay. In fact, I would say you should do that before.

Before the records.

Yeah, because then you're learning about her. And there's a lot about her. She's had a lot of struggles with eating.

Okay, deep dive. There's a lot.

There's a lot. An hour on her is not really enough, but okay.

It's not enough. Okay, and I'm looking forward to hearing your favorite lyrics that speak to you, why they speak to you, why you like them.

Do you want me to come back with things I don't like about, like, I mean. Ooh.

Oh yeah. Like push back or something? No, you come back with things you think are legitimate criticisms.

But I don't like really doing that.

I don't want to push her down. No, I mean, she's going to be okay.

I know, but you know what I mean. Like, I just personally don't like that.

No, think about if there's anything that you think. this is something that I think I reacted badly to. Okay. I think. if there is anything like that.

Okay. I'll be critical.

Be critical. Okay.

This is good. I can do it.

All right, part two soon.

When I'm on vacation, I feel like I can have a different personality.

This makes me want to vacation more, because I am a bad vacationer. If I don't go somewhere for work to achieve something, I can't relax. I'm all angsty. I probably need to actually check this out.

Yeah, you need to go to Booking.

Yeah, I want to be luxury, David. I want to be beachside or poolside because I do like the water. I'm going to do that.

You should do it.

Okay, Booking.

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Sometimes you have multiples of the same. Yeah.

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We had a lot of homework to do, Rob and I.

You guys both had a lot of homework to do.

It did feel like homework. I haven't felt like this since school, where you go home on the weekend and you're like, oh my god, I've got all this homework to do.

Yeah, how does it feel to you?

We didn't have a ton of time for it either.

Right. Yeah.

It was fun, though. I enjoyed hoovering up Taylor Swift, someone I haven't hoovered a lot of, apart from that. 89 album. Overall reflections, Rob? Takeaways from the weekend?

I mean, I like the documentary more than I expected to. I learned a lot about her.

So you both watched the doc? We both watched the doc.

That was our first assignment, yeah. Okay. Yeah.

The documentary was.

Really well made.

It was really well made. It was good. Felt like very intimate. Yeah. I liked that you saw her be vulnerable, which I think is really bold to be like that on camera.

She talks a lot about her journey with her body. Yeah. Which I think, for all the girls that are so obsessed with her, was a really good thing for her to do.

Yeah, and just being reminded of the constant pressure someone like that is under when they're constantly being fed photos of themselves from every angle, at random times, and what that does to a brain. And I was also really surprised, and Rob texted me about this actually, how crippled she was with taking validation and that journey from other people and taking it from that to having her own internal sort of happiness. You just don't think of people like that relying on other people because they're amazing and you expect them just to be okay with all that. Yeah.

Yeah, I didn't know about all her kind of falls from grace and how hard it hit each time, which, though, by the end of it, just made me terrified for her today.

But I also think she has more tools now.

I think she does. Yeah, yeah.

And it's one of the beautiful things about her, and I do think when people of my age who, like her, we're on that same journey, where it's like things that used to take us down, won't anymore.

I got a fright, actually, because Joel Little popped up and he's a New Zealand producer and I forgot that he produced a bunch of, a few of her songs. No way! He was in there. But then, just before him, there's this little quiet man, Joel Little, who used to be in sort of a pop punk band in New Zealand.

Is he a friend? Because you know all the New. Zealanders.

He's not a friend. We know each other. Like we're friendly to each other because it's New Zealand. Yeah. And he's the loveliest man.

I had the same thing with Jack, because I used to see Jack's band when I was like 15 and he'd played in this band, Steel Train, and I would see him at the little clubs in Chicago. How funny. And then now he's in this doc with Taylor Swift.

Just says he's this amazing songwriting brain.

He's a huge music producer, yeah.

And the other thing I liked about the doc is how you had these moments where she would be realizing a song and then it would hard cut to the final performance of it.

I liked that.

Yeah, that was really cool, because you suddenly saw this idea being birthed and then, holy shit, here it is executed. I get very suspicious of documentaries that they have the approval of the artist. And there's so many of them at the moment. And of course, they're all approved by the talent and that can water stuff down, because obviously they're not going to put out some scandalous documentary about themselves. But I thought this was super vulnerable and honest.

I was impressed with that too. She was willing to tell the story in that way and clearly was a part of it, giving her entire side. Completely.

And she wasn't always flattering. And I thought that was pretty amazing.

And did you get any more insight into what we were touching on about the political landscape and her being obviously this figure? that could make big changes?

Yeah, her grappling. There was that really great scene where she was with her whole team. Yes, and her mom and dad. And her mom and dad.

Yeah, her dad. I was not a fan of him during that scene.

But he was trying to protect her. I know. And you have to remember that.

It was amazing to see her and then this table of old white men with like beards.

Oh, I know.

That table was really incredible.

Oh, that. Yes. Yeah. And she's just the fucking boss. I love that.

Yeah. She comes in and it's just funny seeing she was like, right, this record is going to be like 20 tracks or whatever. And all these old men are like, oh, yeah, sounds good. It's such a funny dynamic. It is.

I can't believe we didn't talk about the most important part of her.

The burrito?

Well, yeah. Actually, I think about that a lot when I eat. 27..

She had her first burrito.

I know. It's huge. Her rerecording her music. The fact that we forgot to talk about that in the first half. Yeah.

Very confusing when you go to find on Spotify, because I didn't realize she'd rerecorded so many of them. Yeah.

She threw a bunch of them.

Yeah. So that was what? There was some skifuffle with. Is that a word?

Yeah. Well, skifuffle. Skifuffle. Yeah.

I went for skifuffle. Skifuffle with. With Scooter Braun. Exactly. And she was like, screw you guys.

Scooter Braun and another guy.

Some other dude.

Scott, I think is his name.

Right.

Borchetta.

Yeah. It's Scott, right?

Scott Borchetta.

Scott Borchetta, who she wanted to buy her music back, and they weren't letting her, and she's like, fuck this.

Power move.

It's such a power move.

Huge power move.

Yeah. And it's hard to do. Can you imagine having to go back? She could be spending that time working on new albums, and she's like, it's important to me that I own this, and it's such a good lesson for anyone in any creative industry, and especially women, who are just like, oh, like everything's run by men, and you're just like, okay, I guess it's fine.

Yeah.

No.

Yeah. Kind of leading the way in that respect. Yeah. Yeah. Love her.

about the conspiracy theory? No. No, I wanted to look up them, though. I thought about doing that last night for David. Well, there's a conspiracy theory.

Argyle? Oh, okay. This is all coming into place. Yeah. I haven't seen it, but yes.

haven't seen it either, but Matthew Vaughn, right? Directed it, I think. The theory is that she wrote it under a pseudonym. Yes. The movie is based on the book Argyle.

one knows who writes her. It was a pen name. Yeah. And this cat thing. Okay.

she has the cat backpack with an open hole or whatever. Cat's making a very similar facial.

expression to the Argyle cat. Oh, that's so funny. So people think, and it looks like.

her cat, Meredith. Oh, it's good. She doesn't have time to write a movie. No, she does. That's the other thing about her.

have in this day and age of really pure conspiracy theory. And that's a fun one to have. And I fully support. It's not harmful at all. Yeah, exactly.

conspiracy theories. Speaking of pure, this is not about Taylor, but it's an update. Okay. Last week we did true crime. I've since watched.

during, you settled in. I was surprised when you texted, because it was quite late already. It was past your bedtime. It was, but I was ready for a movie. What did you think of it?

Have you recovered yet? Not really. It is so devastating. And I was really mad at you that you made me watch that. I kind of warned you a little bit.

Are you glad that you watched it? Cause it's so devastating, right? That's the one that I watched in the cinema, and the whole cinema was crying a lot of the time. It's so much further.

on emotionally than other docs. Yeah. It hits you. It does. And again, it's one of those,

something happens whilst they're making it. Yeah. So you think you're watching one thing and then you're like, Oh God. Oh my God. Yeah.

It's a lot. It's upsetting and it's a lot, but I am glad I watched it. I think it's,

it's incredibly personal and impactful and meaningful. And if it was important to the filmmaker, then I think that's, you know, it's his personal journey. Important to us. Exactly. Cause.

what was I watching? I think there is a Reputation thing on Netflix, but I think it's just her.

concert. Right. Cause I went to see the Eras film in the cinema and I would say that Miss Americana was just so much better. I thought the Eras thing was just kind of felt rushed to a cinema. Yeah.

a concert movie. Like it's going to be, I don't know. But it was, it was just a concert.

There were no behind the scenes. There were no interstitials. It was just, it was, it felt a bit rushed. So I would say, if you want to watch a good Taylor Swift, doc, watch Miss.

Americana. Yeah. I was hoping, knowing that there was going to be a Eras doc, I was really hoping that there'd be some behind the scenes, some interviews with her. What was her regimen?

to stay afloat during that? Yeah, the Beyonce doc came out, I think about a month after, cause they had more time. There was much more of a interstitials. You got to see behind the scenes. You got to see the process.

done about pitting Taylor against Beyonce, pitting them against each other? I mean,

it's ridiculous. I mean, America loves to pit people against each other. And again, Rob was texting me with me about, this was in the documentary, that Kanye moment, where Kanye took the stage and made both of us really resent Kanye even sort of more than we do. Just awful. Yeah.

Well, her just standing up there by herself. I know. While everyone was booing.

Yeah. And I, but what I forgot is that Kanye was basically saying like, Beyonce should have got the awards. So it's always been fuel, this sort of rift between the two of them. And it's so interesting because obviously Beyonce at the moment is going and doing a country record. She's doing her take on that, which is this interesting counter.

so stupid. And I will say, I think it's a little different when bands are pitted as opposed to two women solo artists, because it's a part of this bigger problem we have of only one woman is.

allowed to be on top. It seems a bit more personal, right? And a bit more pointed in a way.

Men that I don't think either of them are participating in. Like they don't care.

They both seem to be fine with each other. I think Beyonce turned up to Taylor Swift's documentary. It's all fine. And yeah, there's this really novel idea that you're allowed to like two artists at the same time. It doesn't have to be a death match between the two.

Yeah, support as many women as you can.

Totally. Okay. So that was a doc. You got me to listen to Reputation and Speak Now. Speak Now, I had to turn it off.

It wasn't for you.

It wasn't for me. I tried. It was obviously, it's great to hear her country roots.

In early days.

And I loved hearing how much she has changed and morphed over that time. Reputation, I dug.

You liked it?

I dug it a lot. Yeah, it was good.

Okay, what was your favorite song?

I wrote down. Don't Blame Me. I love that song. That was the one that stood out to me. I like to absorb an album over months to really let it get under my skin.

My knowledge around Reputation is that it was, she went dark for a long time.

She's gone.

Because all of this media scrutiny and then the stuff with Kanye, again, remember the song?

That's very sampled.

Yeah. And he said that Taylor approved it and she didn't. And they cut together her voice saying-.

Yeah, him saying that we'll still have sex, whatever, and doing it at gigs constantly.

Exactly. So that all happened. And then it was like Kim was involved. And then it was like Kim's people were against Taylor. And so she just went fully dark.

I see. I like that record.

Good.

That record was good. What did you listen to, Rob?

Folklore. Which was her 2020 quarantine surprise album.

Yeah. More folksy-ish?

Yeah, folksy.

Sort of in your vein ballpark of what you might like.

Yeah. I mean, a little more poppy and electronic-y than I would normally. I mean, it reminded me a lot of the Bon Iver, From a Forever Ago album when he wrote that. The shots of her, Black and White, and the forest. There was a lot of lore around that Bon Iver album.

This whole story around it.

So I kind of felt that with this album a little bit.

Okay. Did you overall like it or no?

I didn't dislike it. I'm not going to listen to it.

Wow. Okay. I mean, that's the thing with me. I'm like, will I go back and listen to more of this? And I mean, it's so interesting because music is such a personal thing.

Yeah. I appreciate it, but I also seen her journey. of everything. I don't think it's also written for David and I. It's such a personal thing, for, I think, women listening to her music, that it's fine if it's not for us.

Totally. That's true. Did you have a favorite song? The Exile, featuring Bon Iver. Exile.

Another thing I said I was going to come back with and think a bit more about was her influence on American politics.

I had one more question about folklore. I said it was produced. So it was produced by Aaron from The National, which I like that. And then Jack Antonoff. But then it was produced by Joe Alwyn.

Oh, Joe is her ex-boyfriend. He helped write a couple of the songs. They wrote a couple of the songs together. So he must have done that.

Who's that man?

They were together for like five years. He is her last boyfriend before Travis.

See the secret boyfriend she had in the documentary?

Oh, yeah. Who was the boy? Yeah. Joe. Oh, it was Joe.

Yeah. He was notoriously very private. Okay. And did not want...

Didn't want all the craziness that came with the fame.