creative fulfillment, a talk with my dad [video]

Moral of the story is, it's long overdue and he only has one kid, and it's me and I am a full-time job. But he's also an oil painter, he creates YouTube videos, he's also a musician, singer, songwriter, musician. He's one of the most creative people I know.

He's easily the wisest person I know, and you're going to love him more than you love me and want him. To take over the podcast. And it's going to be fucking heartbreaking. Everybody's going to be like, Oh my god, Emma, give the podcast to your dad, and honestly, he deserves it.

He's shaking his head off camera, he's like, I don't fucking want that. So here is a conversation with my wonderful.

Not to totally expose you, but a lot has happened in your life thus far. There's so many nooks and crannies. I feel like I'm always finding out something new about your life and various, I don't know, just like phases that you've had, et cetera. What do you think is the most important for strangers to know about you?

But anyway, but there's a lot I love about the East Coast as well, so I do feel like that's a big thing. And then I was like, I think another thing. Even though I'm like, I've always been a creative person, like I never stood out creatively, like I always took art art classes, and I always took was interested in stuff like that.

But it's not like, I think, you know, even though I'm a painter for a living now, I think most of my teachers, if, if, if. They were told at the time, Oh yeah, by the way, that kid, he's going to be a professional painter someday. They'd be like, what? No? There was always, like the art star kids in class, the kids who stood out, that was never one of those kids.

So I just love to make things and do things creatively, but I don't. I don't think I really, yeah, necessarily stood out. I went to San Diego State for two years, really enjoyed that, but then left early to play music, moved to San Francisco and there. I kind of once I started playing music and playing in bands, then I started meeting other musicians and that's and I live, yeah, and I lived in the city. Sorry, I'm laughing.

Yeah.

Louder.

For theatrics, I must've got that from my mom. Well, it all goes back to grandma then, that's right, cause I'm doing it now, too.

I'm burping with my chest.

It's your fault, because that's what I'm saying. Um, but anyway, yeah, so.

We all lived in the house by ourselves and we turned. I turned the garage into a like, we went and got like, insulation and whatever. My brother Kevin, you know, Uncle Kevin, is a drummer, but Kevin was like, you know, he dropped out of school after a year. We were both back home at the same time, and yeah.

So I was like, Do you want to play drums and or? Or? I started playing bass at that point and singing, and then we brought in guitar players, so we were kind of a trio. So we played for, just played in San Francisco and like recorded songs.

And I played in a couple of other bands after that, until I was about 30.

Am I getting ahead of myself? No, cause I my next question.

Is what's happening? Was that the vibe in the beginning?

I've always been a creative person, I've always loved music. It would be so ideal if I could actually make a living, you know, with music. And at that point, the only way to do it was to be like a rock star or whatever. And the channels to do that, like the ways to do that at that point, were pretty limited.

And it was basically how to get a record deal. I mean, spoiler alert.

Cause, being that Kevin's my brother and I was like, I just, we want to work on this, and they were like, Okay, well, we're, they were going to be patient. But that kind of thing where I started thinking, you know, having to make changes or putting pressure on us to change, and I felt that. And I started. We did we cause. Then, in the practices, we started trying to conform to what it was, which I don't even remember. What the what the things they were talking about then were. But it already started to creep in.

And and then that caused, like, you know, pressure, or it changed the vibe of the band, too. Yeah, and and I wasn't experienced enough not to let that happen, cause I, you know, but it was all a great experience. But again and then, part, part of that was. And then I started playing in other bands. And and with older guys that had actually done touring and had record deals and that sort of thing. And hearing the stories, it didn't sound glamorous at all.

So then, so, at the age of 30, I, I pretty much stopped playing in rock bands, you know, or like, you know, but I still kept playing. Yeah, for you, it sounds.

And then it was like, Okay, wait, maybe this is my job, and then it went back to just being a.

Like, there was no sort of business thing that I that that attracted me. And terrifying time. Yeah, and I just thought, This is it, I got to go for this because this is something I love and whatever.

And in a way, and that's something that I, I, you know, as a painter. Now I'm going to paint for a living, and I have for 10 years now. It's something I've had to kind of wrestle with there as well. When you do something that you love creatively, but then you start doing it for a living. You have to make sure that it, that the job portion of it doesn't take over and kill the joy, and that's something that is. It's a delicate balance to do that.

I feel like, in some ways, when I had my bills paid.

By something else, like, I was working for DHL as a courier in San Francisco. And and even though I didn't make a ton of money, I didn't make that much. But I, I was frugal and at least all my basics were covered. I just felt like I can just be creative for fun. And it's much more enjoyable not to have that pressure to sell it, you know? And so I do think that, um, you know, if if the money comes as a result of just you doing what you naturally do, then that's a gift and that's great.

But I think with a lot of creative kids and a lot of creative people, I mean, the reason you start is not to, like, become famous. And I mean, maybe with some kids, you know? But I think most of them, like most of the kids I know. Or most of the people now that are either young people that I paint with, or older people or whatever, it's kind of all the same. They started out as a way to it, just calmed them down, or it made them. It just was their sort of, you know, like, their happy place, or their. It gave them joy to make things and be creative. And and I think that is where it started. So I think that that's something that I had to sort out as well, you know?

And so so for me to be creative, um, it was like, I can't give that up. I need to have that as my. That's what makes me happy and that's more important than anything. And so so, yeah, so to have another income, um, that takes some of that pressure off. Is, really is, is, is allows you to do that.

And so I would.

Yeah, so I.

And so I remember it was even before I painted, like I was 38 years old. I didn't have any art experience at all. Except for what I had like saying in school, just that I would take art classes, cause I liked it. So I started painting at the age of 38, 2003, and then I was like, Okay, I'm not ready.

And so I worked for another. I think it was six years, maybe more than that. I think it was like 2013 when I quit, I quit everything and just was.

You're, you know, you find your fulfillment so genuinely in in creative endeavors and living a good life that the way that you make money is so secondary. And that's just.

Like, like, like, uh, and I did a lot of stuff like you, I don't know if you remember when you're little. Like, I taught sailing for seven years, you know, and there was a little money there, but not much. But what an experience like, I learned so much through that whole thing. And then, uh, you know, obviously music and painting and all these things and all the social interactions and friends that are associated with those things. Um, just made it, made it so that life was, uh, satisfying and rich in that regard. And so that's why it's like, I know you probably remember, um, it was kind of a fun challenge, like when you were a little to, like, it's like, let's go on a cafe crawl.

Okay, today's budget three bucks.

He'd be like, we're going to go have a total day. Yeah, it's going to be totally fun, right? But we're spending $5..

So when we go to the cafe, we're going to say, can we just grab a bottle of water? Or can we just have a glass of water? Cause you weren't even drinking coffee? I know, so I'd like get a glass of water.

Like, you'd get like a black coffee, and I'd get like a glass of water, and we'd be like, yes.

And it was totally great, and those habits still.

Like, I mean, I'm going to be honest about it, there's been. There were several times. There were several times in the process where, where I thought, you know, like, in the process of what of like of this journey as being a professional painter. There were times where I thought, What am I like? Where I'd run out of money or come really close. See, my philosophy with money was always like, if I have a buffer in my account, I don't even look at my account. But then there's this gut feeling, like I think I need to look, you know?

And then I'd be like, Oh, how bad is it? And one time I looked in there, it was bad, it was really bad. It's like a dollar 67, and this was not that long ago.

No, and I was like, What are you doing? what are you doing? I didn't sleep like the whole night, I was just like in a panic.

And I thought, What am I going to do? and that's when I.

Do you remember? actually? Do you remember when you came up? There's a video where you come up surprising my dad on his birthday child. I was broke. Okay, I knew this.

Did you? Yes, you are? No, cause you came up and you were like, So what I did was so. To date, I mean, maybe some of the people have seen your video, the video, so what? Here's what happened.

So, like the days before that, I was like, what am I going to do? And then I thought, I'll throw my own show and I'll like, make postcards, your own art show, my own art show. So I asked Grammy Pat, I was like, Can I, can I use your house? Like, I'm going to put hors d'oeuvres and I'm going to send out invites and invite people.

I've got to sell some paintings or whatever, and Grandpa Bob was really helpful. He, like, took a stack of the postcards, you know? He's like, Oh, I'll hand them out, and he did. He handed out cards. And he's like, you know, he's so social and everything, talks to everybody. And I sold like $4,000 worth of paintings.

And I'm like, I'm back in the game and he's back. Those times where I was like, against the wall, kind of like that, were so good for me. But arguably self-inflicted. It's fascinating.

It's just fascinating that you threw another show instead of going and getting another job. Would you consider that behavior reckless, or would you consider that intuitive? What is that? I mean? I guess it's entrepreneurial.

So my intention when I started, like a sort of painting related thing, like marketing for your art, I just didn't even know. I just thought, Ah, this seems like, you know, my feeling is, if you're a painter or you're a music, if you're if nobody knows you exist, you're selling nothing, you know? So I'm like, all right, I know how to upload things, I, you know, but what do I want to do? And that's when you wanted to, you were thinking about YouTube, and that's why I was, you know?

Yeah, well, anyway. The bottom line is, I saw some of your fun edits that you would do, and you've talked about this before that you did with your classmates and stuff.

Videos that would be like slow-mo of us, like-.

It was like, But the point I wanted to make, though, is, like, some of them-.

And I was like, Okay, it's a vibe. These are like vibe videos, but the other ones that I liked that were just were just you being a goof.

And I'm like, this is insane.

And then that's when we started saying, I was like, send me some videos that you like and I'll do the same. And that was when I found, like, discovered. Vlogging, I hadn't even looked at watching. I wasn't like I would always go and watch music, but then I started seeing that people were like, vlogging.

I thought, oh, what if I did something like vlog related about painting, where you go out and you sort of record the experience of painting on location? Because I'm doing it already, sort of incorporate that, and so then that's that became my YouTube.

But my question is, did you have any fear about moving to L.A. I mean, it's like it's six hours away at best when the car, yeah, it's like almost 400 miles from where I grew up, from the Bay area. Yeah, so it's quite a ways. I think it was a combination of a few things.

I've been alone, you know, not socializing with kids my age very much. The only time I get to is when I'm interacting with my peers who are also, you know, in this industry. I felt like, wait a minute, this is my ticket to being a social being again, you know, like, I want to be around people. And I was starting to get recognized by fellow YouTubers at the time, and I was like, that was so exhilarating to me. You know, all these people I'd been watching on YouTube forever are now like, we watch you on YouTube.

And I was like, That is, I can't handle that, I have to move now. And I was like, I don't care about being famous. But the thing that really put the fire under my ass to succeed at it was to be friends with these people. That I watched like, it's almost like. That motivated me more than anything. And I wasn't like super fangirl about it, but it was more like, Oh, I genuinely think that these would be good friends.

And we also have a common hobby. In a way, Oh my god, how special would it be to have friends who have the same passion as I do for creating a video like that's so cool to me, like, I wanted that.

Like, or they maybe they were, but the whole. There were other, you know, people down here that were doing that sort of thing. So to me, it was like, yes, go for it, for sure. And. And. But when I thought about it, it still impressed me, like, Wow, she's like 17 and she's just going for it. But, and you're right.

Like, I think I thought about this too when I, when I first came down to visit. You're not somebody who's moving to L.A. to get into the industry, you are already in it. And it was almost like, overdue, do you know what I mean?

It was like, overdue that you got down here where other people were doing things, and because immediately you hit the ground running when you came down here. Well, it was automatic, I did.

And I remember you were just, you had constant things going on. It was nonstop, and I don't even think you expected that that first time. There was a lot, there was almost.

And it became hard to balance, you know, that social life with, like, wait a minute. I still have to do what I came here to do, though. And I and I will say I got lucky that, yeah. I think I lost my footing quite a few times throughout the journey, but I never lost my footing. To a point where it was irreversible, it was unfixable, you know? And I think, naturally, when you come into your career, when your brain is not fully developed, it's like, you're just due to my brain. Still isn't.

Yeah, I just think it's still took courage to come down here, you know? Thank you and see. For me, it was like it was just like it was like, holy shit, yeah.

And all the other thing I was going to say, too, is this is another thing that I observed is that and you can tell me your take on this. But when it came to all of this, it wasn't like. I never felt like money and fame was something. You were, that was not the point of you with YouTube, YouTube for you was this. And correct me if I'm wrong, but you saw videos or you saw things where you're like.

Does that make sense? It's not obviously creative. I did not understand, like, what, why do I like? Why does this creatively fulfill me? And up until recently, I was kind of unsure, like, why is making a YouTube video a creative thing?

And I, it totally makes sense to me now. I think number one, it's the art of entertainment, like creating something that will entertain somebody for a period of time, that's number one, I think.

Number two, it's sort of the art of creating something so seamless that when you're watching it, you're there, like, that's the editing of it all.

Like, I almost think, for whatever reason, this whole thing is so intuitive to you, you can't even explain it. But I can't I. I. I have thought about this a lot. And so what you're trying to articulate is, I think here's my thought. And you can tell me if I'm right with any kind of art. And I don't care if it's music or painting, or making a video, or making a movie or whatever. What you're trying to do is create an alternate world or reality for a person to disappear into. And if the mechanics of that are obvious, then it breaks the spell and you're out. So if you're like, listening to a song and all of a sudden you hear like, the beat is like, completely off, or the voice goes off. Or this, or that, it can be a lyric, anything to break the spell, you're out of that, that world.

And so what you naturally had in a video is the same thing. You're trying to create something where the person disappears into that world, and it's it's, it's the world. It's seen, it's real, but it's seen through your eyes, like the music you create, where you're, you know. Down to a 10th of a second of an edit or a cut makes a difference on how the flow and the feel. And that's something I noticed very early on. I was like, you know, because it's musical in a way.

And I feel like that ability to where you can get lost in your edits and you go for that ride. And your edits have changed as you've changed the way you present and you know how you create your videos. But it's all still you, and it seems to be very natural. But the key thing I think with all good art is it takes you, disappear into it and you don't see it. And so that's why I think a lot of times the good stuff, it almost seems like it just exists, you know what I mean?

Yeah, I can say, like people might say, Oh, like, Emma, you know, this is. I've seen your, I've seen your timelines, okay, and I've seen you work. And and you're a gifted editor, period, you know, and so like, and you keep getting better.

And I think the key thing is is that that that is so important. Because you almost have to get out of your own way when you're creating effectively. Okay, so, like the flow state, where you are creating is when you're in that moment where you're entertaining yourself, almost. And it starts there. It's gotta be in that.

The best stuff comes when you're like, you're in that state where you're creating something and you're not thinking necessarily about, oh, how's anybody going to watch? Like, how's this going to come off? or whatever? Then you're, that's it, you're going to lose.

So I'm going to try to do this, it. The unfortunate thing about it is that I really don't think it can be forced. And I when it, Oh, go on, yeah, no, I mean, I was going.

It has uniqueness that is as unique as you are as a person when you're channeling that part. But I've noticed with any kind of art, music, et cetera, there is another way that's easier psychologically. Well, I'll just say this style and technique, yeah, okay.

If you like, so you can. There are so many tools we have now, and even, I mean, you can rely on.

It's like, No fuck that, like, let's just use the easiest equipment possible so that we can just go like, let's just go, that's right, that's number one.

So it's just like for ease, cause then you can be much more spontaneous and whatever. But then I also think, you know, being able to make something that i that is good and effective in my eyes with non-fancy equipment, it like, forces me to create the substance. Does that make sense?

I'm not, I'm not getting lost in the sauce, trying to make it look super crisp, super perfect, super whatever. Cause the reality is, nobody cares. It makes no difference, it really.

And so it's so true, cause I said, you know, I was like, if you put Paul McCartney or Elvis Presley in front of your phone and they sang a song or anyone. If it's good, it's good. And and so I think that one of the challenges we have now, like technologically speaking, we have so much. And so I even do this with painting, I've cut down my colors to like minimum colors.

I'll paint a painting with one brush. Only one of the things we can that can happen to us nowadays is that, like you say, we can get lost in the sauce. Or we can get distracted by things that we may think are important or necessary, and they're not. But I had another question I wanted to ask you regarding the pressure to stay in that state, or the flow creative state where you're making something for yourself and it does happen easily, like, say, in a video, like making something when you have so many people, you know that so many people are going to watch that video. And so trying to get into a place where that doesn't get into your head while you're making videos.

And I know, obviously we've talked about this and there's times where it does, or it's hard to. But what have you found that's been helpful to to to maintain that flow state in creating? Even though there's, you know, that you have such a big.

I am sort of making it for me. It's so much work to make the video, which sounds ridiculous. I'm so embarrassed. Well, it's not, it's not, it's work if you're not doing, if you're doing it for yourself. Let me let me actually, let me elaborate.

It's just so time consuming, right? Listen, there's many more time consuming things on this planet. But you know, my videos take 20 hours to edit, right? You won't make it through. You won't finish editing unless you're doing it for you. Because it's a very tedious project. You know, it's like, I can't even finish it, if, if, if I'm not doing it for me. So that explains the I don't know, probably 50 videos that have never gone out. Because it's just like I couldn't, I was in my, I wasn't in flow with it.

I can't finish it if I don't get into that, and I can only get into the flow if I'm making it for me. Like, I'm like, this is for me, I, I am excited, I'm like, so excited for the end result that I, you know, I, I need to keep.

I don't want to look at myself, I can't, I don't want to talk on camera, I can't. So, and those are two separate things like.

That's what's interesting about it, it's like there are two key variables when it comes to making a video, it's like number one. I need to be in a space where my energy is just good, my energy just needs to be good. And I need to have things that I want to say. And I need to be an energy that somebody wants to be around.

But then also I need to be making a video that I'm excited to edit. So it's those two variables. And I found that now I'm excited about making videos. Because it has nothing to do with money. You know, I'm not doing brand deals anymore on my YouTube, my YouTube is now my playground completely.

I've removed all industry from it completely. You know, there are moments when it's like, I work with Levi's, I'm wearing a pair of Levi's in this video anyway, right? Let's shove it.

Let's throw it in. But it's like, I, the industry is completely removed from it. For me, and that's, you know, that's an absolute privilege. I am so grateful that I'm able to do that. You know, from a financial standpoint now, where you know, I don't have to make money from YouTube anymore, so now that just can be fun.

It's just it's back to being my little playground, and I really think that's what's so wild about it is. It's like I YouTube became my job.

Inevitably, that that that challenged my relationship with YouTube.

And I struggled with it up until now, where it's just fun. Now. Does that make sense? Like, I don't think I ever was. I don't know if I can ever have that as a job and still enjoy it as a.

And the reality is, every time, every time I came back after a break, even with some like painting I. There was times where I, just for whatever reason, I was working on music and I didn't paint for two months. And I come back and I've grown and doing other things and engaging in other things. I mean, it's ridiculous, but all of those have helped, you know, when I first started surfing, I didn't do anything else for like, months. No music, no, and and even that changed my approach to music and art. It's, it's all of, it's interlinked.

If you're, if you're just doing your art over and over, you're going to run out. Like, you need life, you need it, life to bring into what you do. And I. But the point is is that living life gives you it, fuels your creativity well.

And then, you know, but you end up running yourself into the ground and you've absolutely, but you.

I mean, for me, I kind of ping pong between these different things, but yeah, those breaks away from it are like, input mode and that.

Like being a normal 22 year old who just is fucking in this drama, right? And in the thick of it. It's like, that gives me so much to talk about, That gives me so much to talk about, That gives me. But I mean, it's also just fulfilling.

Weirdly enough, I don't know.

And then when I was, you know, when I was doing construction, same. There's this constant interaction and that was almost enough for me. But then when I went to full time painting, it was not good because I didn't have any interaction. So it took several years, but now I realized people's the most important thing, period.

Having good relationships with friends who are, and you got to choose your friends carefully, like cause if you're.

It's all of it, yeah.

And I mean, you've seen this happen to me throughout my career, where there's a bad apple and I'm, I'm, I can't fucking do.

No, and so I've gotten way better about that, and part of it is just that I have for whatever reason. I think when you're putting out a positive you know thing or whatever, if your vibe is positive, you start. You just attract other people like that as well, and so I can easily make that choice.

I'm just not going to hang out with somebody who has that sort of oppressive, you know, cause it is so detrimental to if you're a person who. A big part of their joy is the excitement about making things and creating things. If you have to be careful not to be around somebody who's going to dampen that because you're going to, it's going to bum you out. So, but I mean, it goes for even people who aren't creative. And oftentimes, and oftentimes, though, the trick is that sometimes it's just a feeling like I just don't feel good after I am around this person or something. And then you, and then you, and a lot of times, you'll, you'll even question yourself, and you'll be like, Is it me? or whatever?

And then that's where it's helpful to have a friend who's like, No, it's not you. No, that's what you do for me. Yeah, well, it's like, it's so. It's a tricky thing because if you're brought down, if you're criticized, you, you might buy into that mindset. I was like, No, that is not reality.

They're reality. That is not what we're after. Well, it is fascinating how you start to see.

Like, today, I showed you a song and I was like, This shit is so fucking good, and I showed it to you. And I was like, Oh my god, wait, this is actually kind of bad. Like I didn't because I started to listen to it through your, I was listening to it through.

When you share something with somebody, you're like, Oh, wait, I know, because you're second guessing, that's right.

Because if not, then you'd start taking their lens with you, and then you know if they're. If they see things in a way that is shitty, negative, bad, then that's just that starts.

I'm happiest when my core people are good, which is, you know, that's excluding those who come and go, right? You know, you and my mom, and like, you know, that's the core, you know. But even like, if me and you and my mom and the few other little core people are there.

And I'm in a really exciting, inspired, motivated place. Career-wise, all is good. And so if there's a bad apple, guess what happens? Now? I can't get work done, which literally, you know this, I fucking freak out.

I'm like, why is it not going? Why do I have nothing to talk about? Why do I have nothing? I cannot make anything? I can't say anything.

I can't do anything, freak out, crisis mode, everyone batting down the hatchet, it's like a nightmare.

But then, as a result of that, now I'm bringing that terrible energy to the core people, you and my mom and Allie, and all the core people. Suffer now because I'm a mess, and so then my relationship with you suffers, and then now I have nothing. My relationship is suffering with my core people because I'm a mess.

My work is suffering all because of that.

I just think.

Across the board, platonic romantic business, it doesn't matter. All relationships kind of need to be taken slow like every, you have to take every type of relationship slow. And it's so hard to do that. Because in every type of relationship again, you can be like, Oh my God, like we just click and you can start skipping steps.

This happens in friendships, too. I mean, I know that most people are probably thinking of romantic relationships, but I'm actually thinking about friendships as well. Like, you meet a, uh, you know, a fun person at a bar and you're like, Oh my god, we just click. We're like, bestie vibes, whatever, and you're like, Okay, we're going to like, go on a trip together.

We're going to go on a girl's trip and it's like, No, you don't know that person well enough, it's in. The problem with that is that's when you get yourself into a relationship where you find out later that they're so, so bad for you. But you got you. You skipped steps and now you're so far ahead that you can't then pull back and create that distance. That's safe. It's too late.

That's like, the three month thing is just, you know, just be friends with somebody for like, three months. Most of them might make three weeks. And you're like, Oh God, thank God, I dodged that. But some, if you're getting up to three months and you're still like, Wow, this person is really cool, you know? Then you're onto something, so then push it another three.

So I just think I think there is no rush in it. And allow somebody to be who they are and you. It'll and they'll, cause, like everybody, it will come out right. And it's kind of interesting to see how soon that comes up. How long can they keep up?

But I'm just thinking about all the times in my life when I've come to you and been like, I am obsessed. Like with like a guy you've seen that like, moral of the story is, I'm like, mortified, thinking about through your lens how often I'm like, No, wait a minute.

This is the one no wait, hold on this one, wait a minute, back it up, that one out, this one in.

That's just normal, especially when you're younger, it's it's really normal. It comes with experience where you're like, Okay, I kind of rushed into that. Or the girl who cried, Wolf.

I feel like.

Um, I have a void in me and this is going to solve my problem, you know what I mean? And so you're like, and then that's when the wheels start spinning, and you're, you know, creating these, this illusion. If you're in a state of of kind of satisfaction and happiness, I think then then you can look at almost everything around you with with no expectations. And you see, you see things more clearly and you make better decisions.

So I think the moral of that story is, you know, if you're? If you find a way to be fulfilled and happy personally, then you're not going to be looking for. Whether it's, you know, business opportunities or this, or or a relationship, or this, or that to solve that problem. And you end up rushing in and making.

Last but, but also, I'd say, like the last, even the last. You know, the last couple of years have been better and then now it's it. Just continuing to get better and better is what I'm seeing. You know, there was a time there was like, hard, it was tough, you know, it was difficult, right? Cause? And but now, like, you're, because it was what I didn't, you know. Part of it was learning about this whole situation.

And like, I was about to say, what I was going to say is, where do you get the information? How do you do this? And I realized you have to just trust your heart through this whole process. And and then talking to your mom and same thing. I felt like, in a way, you're just sort of alone in this. But I feel like both of us have kind of gotten to. All of us. All three of us have sort of come back to just being normal people. You know, it's just feels just very normal now.

Yeah, and so I can. I know what they feel like, I know that they're going to go away. Um, I also, like, have various little mantras that I will that I have stored in the back of my head. For. When a thought comes up, like when I'm getting really anxious about, you know, like how I feel overexposed and stuff, for example, like, I feel so exposed. But I think the hardest thing for me is like, just being, it's just that. I think this job, you know, exacerbates various mental mental health issues I already have.

Like I being an anxious and depressed person, I think it just it, it can.

Mainly with anxiety. For me, though, it just really, it really sends me and that's. But again, those.

And again, but we both are so in support of the internet as well, where it's like, for sure, we, you know, it can enhance life, absolutely.

As an artist, it's essential, it's super helpful, but it's just it. Is this thing where I have to, you know, constantly remind myself not to get too sucked into it and to appreciate the three-dimensional.

I doubt it, I don't think it was very quiet. I think we're, I think we're good, I.