Anna Kendrick [Rerelease from 1/9/23]

Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. I'm Dan Shepard. I'm joined by Monica Padman. Hello, Monica.

Hi.

We have incredibly exciting news. Starting on Monday, August 14th, you'll be able to find all new episodes of Armchair Expert free on Spotify and everywhere you get your podcasts. But in the meantime, we decided we wanted to revisit a few of our favorite episodes over the last couple of years.

Yes, it's very exciting for us, because we get to come back to every one, which is really, really fun. And these are some of our faves.

Yes, in case you missed them, these are the ones that we thought were worth re-airing before we go wide on August 14th. Please enjoy some of our best of. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. I'm Dan Shepard. I'm joined by Monica Padman.

Good morning and good night.

And to all a good night.

Because who knows what time you're listening to this.

No, but probably don't listen to this. if you're trying to go to good night. No, no, we don't want you to just hear the beginning and then drift off peacefully. Although I do wish that for anyone, so I take that back. Whatever you gotta, however you wanna use this, it's yours to use.

Yes.

Definitely the one that I was most affected by of all we've ever had.

In your life.

Yeah.

In the past five years.

Yeah. I got gobbled up in it.

Very privileged and honored that Anna decided to come chat with us about something that's been going on in her life for quite a long time.

Anna Kendrick is a gangster, pitch perfect, a simple favor, up in the air, into the woods, twilight, you name it. She's incredible.

Her roster is long.

Sings like a motherfucker.

Oh my God, one of the best voices ever.

You listened on repeat to the Trolls soundtrack. I caught you. I caught you.

You did.

I walked into your work one day.

Yep, when I worked at UCB.

And you were in the middle of listening to Trolls on YouTube.

True colors. I was.

She has a movie coming out January 20th called Alice Darling, and it's incredible. She's fantastic in it. I watched it right before we talked and it's excruciating in an incredible way about a woman who's coming to terms with an abusive relationship. she's in. Yeah.

Yes, I just purchased Vital Farms eggs yesterday. You did? Yeah, and I made eggs this morning.

Do you know what was incredible? I made eggs on the grill in pans and bacon on the bus. Oh. And we ate outside. And everyone was like, this is the best egg breakfast of all time.

It's ubiquitous, which is really nice.

Yes, and you get cash back.

I also like it because you can send money with PayPal to friends.

Oh, yeah.

Which means going halfsies when your BFF visits this summer, or Callie and I live in the same city, so she's not visiting, but we are going on a trip, and so we're gonna have to do a lot of splitsies.

And fire money back and forth to each other. That's right. With even more cash back in your pocket when you pay with PayPal, saying yes to summertime fun just got a whole lot easier. Make sure to download the PayPal app. An account with PayPal is required to send and receive money, redeem points for cash, and other options.

I wonder how many of us there's been here.

Little, tiny shorties? Shorties.

Shortcakes.

Shortcakes. You, Kristen, now, Anna. You know, I'm gonna call you Anna. I'm gonna warn you now.

That's fine.

No, it's not fine. Your name is Anna.

Yeah, it's not your name.

Yeah, but we have an Anna really close to us. Oh. And annoyingly so, she spells her name.

With two N's? No.

She doesn't? No. Okay, I'm standing corrected.

Well, I'm not that close to you. After all, I guess.

Okay. I guess I just learned I have no excuse, but I'm so in the habit of saying, Anna, that it's actually fucked up how I talk to our friend Hannah.

Exactly. You say, Hannah?

I want to, yeah. Like when I see her, I go ha, ha, ha and midway through, I hear that Hannah's coming out and I go, ha, ha, Hannah.

So you constantly sound like you're having a seizure? Yes. That's good.

With some palsy, some light palsy.

And then I'm triggered, cause seizures. Right, right, right. Wait, can I give you some credit?

Okay. I know. I thought you were gonna say criticism. No. Because I heard the C.

Anna gets called Anna by everyone. And she's Kristen's assistant. And every time someone does it, I get like-.

PTSD?

Well, no, I feel like she feels like she can't say. that's not how to say it.

Oh, cause she's unempowered.

Right, right. Yeah, there's like this power thing. Not from Kristen, of course, but if she's out in public with Kristen doing work and someone calls her Anna, which happens every time, I think she just lets it go, and I think she hates it. I feel like you've picked up on it and you're good at calling her her name. And now you're not gonna go back.

We all have a story about her. Would you be opposed to making it a little closer to your mouth? Of course.

Okay, great.

Yeah, cause you have such a pretty voice and eye.

The prettiest. I feel like I've backed myself really into the furthest corner of this couch.

Feel free to get comfortable. You can move your legs around. Do you want a blanket?

Desperately.

Oh, my God, yeah, then we have one. Yeah, I'm gonna put it on you. There's a service I just started doing to guests. Who is it?

Lily Reinhart. You think I'm gonna object? Oh, a beautiful female.

Tuck me in, baby. Let's do it. As it should be. Oh my God. Oh, it's so cozy.

I think you also maybe did this to Zoey Deutch.

Oh my God, I feel so nurtured.

Well, you should. This is a platinum package.

Oh, my God, you're really, oh wow.

Now, don't be codependent. You're gonna wanna use your arms.

Exactly.

But at any point, you can get rid of that.

No, no, no, no, no. This is how Dax wanted it. So I guess I can't do anything. That's fine. I'll just sit like this the whole rest of the show.

I should be able to get you. I should be able to stand up for myself,

but I'm just gonna stay in this straight jacket.

Boy, my nose is itchy. I'd kill to itch it right now.

But, as a shorty, do you find, this is actually in an okay sweet spot of leg hanging off where I'm almost fully reclined. I would only need the tiniest ottoman to be fully, fully reclined. But I find, I have to remind myself that I'm a grown, excuse me. I have to, I have to. really, I have to remind myself.

in the middle of your sentence.

Yes. I have to remind myself that I am a grown woman and that I'm at the doctor's office and I can't fully get up into a, how would you describe this? Like a fetal position, where the feet are curled up under me like I'm an eight year old. Because I find it very uncomfortable to be in that kind of in between, where the chair is hitting right at the calf.

Mid-calf can give you a charley horse.

But I do all kinds of fetal.

Supine.

Legs out, like even in this chair, these feet will come up. Oh my God! What happened?

What's wrong with my pants? Holy fuck, how embarrassing. Right in front of Anna, your new friend. I'm so embarrassed. What a mess.

Oh, thank God.

How close do you live?

I live like 20 minutes away, but I actually used to live five minutes away.

I feel like you would live over here. That's why I just assumed wrongly. Okay, why did you move?

I actually just bought my dream house. I've always wanted to live in this neighborhood. that again is not far. I remember being like, if I lived in this house, I would become perfect.

Oh, yes.

I would not have any more personality problems. I would just, I would work out every day. Of course. I would journal. None of that has proven to be true, but I'm very happy in the house.

Has it improved your life at all? Yes.

Okay. Yes, yes.

Hit me with how? More light in your life?

My old house had a lot of light. The new house has a lot of light. This is so silly, but it's-.

We love silliness.

It's all one floor.

Oh yeah.

A ranch.

And I think, because I travel so much and I am so small and so weak, the upper body strength of a dying fruit fly, just nothing. I get bad travel anxiety and bad packing anxiety, constantly having stress, dreams about, I didn't pack this or I need to go back for that. And I get a weird amount of anxiety about hauling my suitcase down the stairs.

Up and down. Yeah. Sure.

Yeah. Especially when I was living with roommates, I just found it so humiliating that I had to just let it k-clunk one stair at a time.

Because you're feeling like you don't have the upper strength.

I don't.

To hoist it. You're deceiving men.

In what way?

You look fit and, like you, would be strong. I often ask other men, would you rather look super strong and be weak, or look really weak and be super strong? I'd way rather look strong, personally.

Oh, that's really interesting. I think I would probably rather be strong. I mean, look, there's gender things here where it's not a big deal. If I look like I have no upper body strength, no one really cares. But if I could just do more things, that would be great.

Oh.

Nothing is more uniquely humiliating.

First of all, what sign are you?

I'm a Leo.

Okay.

August.

Cusp. Yeah, my cusp.

But I'm a Virgo. August 9th.

Okay, not that far off. Okay, well, I just had a recent bad experience on a plane with my luggage, where it came crashing down. Yeah, so I did have to ask for help.

From another woman, right, as I recall?

Yeah, she was angry.

The big girl?

She was angry?

Well, I think she was angry that it had crashed down and that now I was holding everybody.

Oh, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Was this when you were de-planing?

No, I was getting on.

Oh, this wasn't like, oh, it's the middle of the flight and I'm reaching for something. No. You're holding up the line. Yeah.

Well, I have a terrible fear. What? You're not gonna like this question. Did you ask a passenger from coach? I don't know.

I didn't ask.

And then you asked this person from coach.

Boo, hiss.

Ma'am, will you put my bag up? They should have people here. Stop it.

That's not how it went.

And you used that voice. I did.

We all know. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know the voice. No, I tried to do it on my own and I'm small, and it didn't work. It started to crash down and made everyone nervous that like they were gonna get injured. And I just kind of looked at the woman behind me. She was like, yes, I see you need help.

What did she say? Yeah, let me grab, I hate rich people. Did you hear that at all?

Honestly. Okay.

Back to your house.

I love a ranch.

I love a ranch.

I lived in a ranch for 16 years, just a thousand feet that way. And I had hoped to die in a ranch. There's something about it that I find very pleasing.

Yeah. Yeah. There's a premium on them in Maine. Both of my parents still live in Maine. Well, actually, my dad passed recently and his funeral was on Friday.

Wait.

Oh, my gosh, I'm so sorry.

Wait a minute, wait a minute. I feel like someone should have warned us about that. Sorry.

Well, don't apologize to us. So it's weird. So I guess he doesn't, but I put them both in a single story houses, but Maine has one of the oldest populations in the country. I'm saying this. I remember seeing that somewhere.

I do the same thing about Michigan. Do you have a place for yourself in Maine?

No, no, no, I don't. Okay.

Yeah. Cause. I have a friend, David Walton. I love him. He's an actor.

Yeah. Very wispy. Very Terrence Malick. Yeah. Very nice.

Very Malick. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

We have a few. Loose ends? Already loose ends.

Yeah, we got a lot.

At some point, maybe we circle back to. Your father. Your grieving. Yeah. I'm so, so sorry.

Can I ask how old your father was?

75..

Okay, great. I just heard someone in an AA meeting say this the other day. I thought it was really funny. It was a guy that was about 75.. And he said, if I die right now, I'm too old for it to be tragic.

Yeah.

And then, what he's saying.

But too young also.

Too young for some other thing, really clever thing. But I thought, oh, that isn't funny.

Well, this was a great retelling. Thank you for that. Yeah.

Let me just try to get a hold of him.

Too young to be expected. That's for sure.

Yeah, but he just talked about there's like, there's a doldrums age where it's like, no one's going to actually go like,

oh shit, that's too young.

And they're not going to say like, oh great, he had a great life. You're kind of in this.

Yeah.

Yeah. They weren't married, clearly.

Yeah, they divorced when I was 15.. And I actually remember something my mom said years ago when I went to my grandma's funeral and my grandfather's funeral. I was kind of wondering, do I need to wear black? And I feel like she said something about how it's sad, but it's not a tragedy. Right.

And it was in Maine? Yeah. Can I ask what he died of?

End stage liver cirrhosis.

Okay, okay. Lifestyle related, do you think? Yes, yeah. Yes, yes, yes. Okay, I just feel compelled to say this to you because now I feel sad.

No, I talked to my brother about this a lot, that, especially in the last couple of years, there were constantly these like updates about his health and we don't talk about anything. So, you know, there were these kind of very vague, but somehow very serious updates happening all the time. And we couldn't really read between the lines and figure out what are we talking about? I would just love a timeline, but we can't really ask those questions. And we were always kind of trying to interpret what was happening.

Wasn't his top priority.

Exactly. It always was just like, it could happen at any time.

And if you're like me, I'm a bit of a control freak. And so something that was frustrating about my father's illness, actually not his as much as my stepdad's, I'm prepared for anything. If you tell me it's three months, I'll get there. If it's six months, I'll get there. What was maddening to me is there were these stages where it was like, well, he's dead.

Yes, the cat with nine lives, this man, absolutely. Where I would be in the middle of production going, if I need to come home, tell me. It will probably blow up this movie because it's a very small movie and they don't have the funny, whatever. But if that's what's happening, let me know, I'll go. It was never clear.

if it was six months,

I know what I'm doing for the next six months. That's right. But when it was, it's probably like two years, I don't really know what to do. Because I don't stop living my life for two full years. How do I navigate this?

Yeah, I often say as gnarly as cancer is, it's also kind of a weird blessing in that, well, especially with my dad, small cell carcinoma, it's like, here's your three months, get after it.

Oh, really?

Whereas heart disease, he had. that too. To your point, I don't know, should I be going home for a month randomly? I don't know, it's the big heart attack coming. So in some weird way, I think cancers can at least be helpful in like, okay, here's our three months to solve it all together, to repair, to forgive.

Yeah, even this summer, I was looking at little places. Do I lease a place so that I can just be going home all the time? But then you visit and you're also like, oh, a fraction of what will be lost is already lost?

Yeah. It's so sad.

Fraction of what will be lost is already lost.

It's, don't you?

No, I like that. I wanna think about that.

And also, this is so raw. Sorry, we're doing this right. No!

You know, Anna's lost a limb, right? Did we mention that? Like, she's gonna be on day two of not having her right leg. Was he in the hospital?

He was in and out. So he actually passed about a month ago. I was home about a month before that, and he was at home, but kind of not all there. It was kind of a question of like, do we keep him at home, all that stuff? And he's married, so it's obviously her decision.

Right. This is a terrible reference, but it's kind of like show business can seem overnight.

It's very similar, right?

I have so many people I know, and me too, like, seemingly overnight, but really like eight years. It just, when it happened, it fucking happened like gangbusters.

Totally.

Yeah, it's a very weird process. Did you have stuff that you had wanted to say, that you felt like you got to?

I think my brother did, and that's great for him. I started therapy three years ago, and was trying to be open to the idea of not literally living in the way that I've been living my whole life, which was very intense and scary. But I also felt some of therapy was giving me this idea early on. Oh, everybody should communicate in this kind of healthy framework. I remember approaching my dad in that way when his sister died two years ago, and being like, this doesn't feel right for me.

Okay, great. This just happened to me two weeks ago. So there've been men in my yard for two years working, and God bless them. They're working their asses off. I've been frustrated at times, but so far, great behavior.

What does that start like? Do you start with, I was perfectly justified to do that. How quickly do you get to, I might not have been perfectly justified to do that?

On the ride home from dropping the girls off.

How long is that? I'm genuinely super curious.

It's about 15 minutes. Oh wow, okay, that's good. 15 minutes, I'm like, A, you don't talk to people like that. B, you're so much more privileged. You're not out there swinging a fucking hammer.

And I was like, oh my God.

They probably were fine with me fucking screaming, this is my shit. And now they were like, dude, get out of here. This makes me so uncomfortable. I don't know what thing you're into.

Oh God.

And so I came inside and Kristen goes, how was that apology? And I go, I think it was really rough for the guys. I think maybe I should have skipped that one.

Okay, this is so interesting to me. My oldest friend and I, we lived together when we were like 20. And when one or both of us would get too drunk and be catty and be nasty to each other. And then in the morning, it was just like, do you want to go get pancakes?

Right, right.

Yeah, okay, great. In all of that was for us, I'm very, very sorry about my behavior, and I know that you're sorry about your behavior. I would make us so much more uncomfortable to talk about it, so we'll just go get pancakes. And I know that there's some dynamics in which it is a brushing under the rug and it's really uncomfortable, and that worked for us and for our dynamics.

Right, each relationship is so different.

Each one's allowed to have its own rules. Yeah, totally.

I feel like there was a big period of time between me and you where we would get in things and then I would never apologize, because we don't do that in my family. It's the same thing. There's huge blowups and huge fights, and then you just, on your own, kind of let that go. Let it thaw. Yeah, and no one's talking about it again.

Yeah, requires the repair. I have a similar thing with my brother. He was here for Christmas a while ago. Something had happened and I was annoyed, nothing to do with him, and I grabbed my phone and I was walking out the door to go for a walk, and he went, you good? I went, nope.

I was like, yep.

And I knew that he wasn't gonna pry and that I could say, no, I'm not okay, but I'm not interested in any consoling or whatever right now. And then, half an hour later, I came back and I was like, hey, can you come into the kitchen? I just need to yell about something and I need you to just be in the room and witness it. And I just literally needed him to go, mm, mm-hmm.

And you let it rip.

Yeah, and I was just screaming about whatever stupid thing had happened and I was very annoyed and it was all fine. Of course it was all fine in the end, but having somebody to witness and accept that I'm really angry right now, but you feel safe, because you know it's not about you.

By the way, the generic stereotype, which I do find to be true, is men. think you're telling them that they are now enacted to fix it for you, that we have zero capacity to just observe and be there for you, right? But I feel like if you say that, like your brother got the gift of all gifts, which is you're like, I need to blow off some steam. Will you witness it? And he's free to just watch the show.

I think he's always been pretty good at that.

How much older is he?

He's two years older. Okay. This is the thing that fascinates me, this cliche of men need to fix and women just wanna be listened to. I understand why the people that do this, because obviously I know that the cliche is that it's more men than women, but whoever does this, that there's some altruism to framing it, as, I just wanna help and I have to accept that you just want to be listened to. And there's a little bit of something that I don't love.

Well, I can tell you, I can be honest. Tell me. I am uncomfortable that you have emotions. And so if I can get the thing causing the emotions out of the equation, I will feel safer. Yes.

I think you probably had to do so much work to recognize that. Yeah. And I'm so impressed with people who can go, oh, this is about my anxiety. Yeah. Because I really need you to be at like a calm level, homeostasis for me, so that I can feel safe or so that I can have all the emotions in the room, or whatever the case may be.

Yeah.

It ends up getting framed as irrational. women just want to cluck, cluck, cluck and gossip and vent and whatever, when men are trying to be logical and have solutions. Inherent in that is the suggestion that you have a solution that I haven't thought of, which is really patronizing.

Yeah.

By the way, if you had a solution, that would be so fucking great. If you actually had a solution that completely solved my problem, I would welcome that. So I think we get annoyed when it's like, babe, that's not helping.

Well, for Kristen and I, it's a mix of it. We know better than to just launch in without the precursor. So there are times where she is enlisting me to help her fix it. There's other times she just wants to call this person an asshole. that's not looking for a solution.

Yeah.

And so I can do either, but I need to know which one. I need to know what hat I'm putting on.

That's so interesting. I wonder if I'm ever aware of being in one phase or the other, because I think I would just be like, if you have a solution, great, then I don't have a problem anymore. But I don't know.

There's so many things. One is we have blind spots. And when you get with somebody and you decide we're gonna fucking compromise over dinner, the upside is you have a co-pilot. And so they're good at seeing the blind spots you have. There's also just perspective.

That does make sense.

But I'll say to her sometimes, I'm not looking for you to tell me why this person's not an asshole. I just want to let it rip on why I think this person's an asshole, because now I don't want to be arguing my point about why. no, they are an asshole. It's not that. So I need to be clear too.

That actually reminds me of in one of Pete Holmes podcast episodes, I think he might've been at a seminar to do with spirituality and stuff. And he was telling this story about kind of letting it rip because something had gone wrong and he just needed to be in that space. And then he could get to something with more perspective, something with more compassion.

Constructive, maybe.

And I loved that story because my reaction initially was a little bit, really? Wasn't the whole thing that it's this spiritual thing? Like? I'm trying to remember that my goal in life is not to rise above the human condition, because that won't work. Is not to judge myself or judge Pete Holmes or you with the construction guys when you have a very ugly human thing happen because the animal exists inside you, whether you want it to or not.

I totally agree with that. And I think there's a lie you're telling to yourself, which is somehow I will have a perspective that I will not suffer from this emotion. But then the emotion is just kicked down the road and then some innocuous thing happens and you're having this irrational reaction to it. So I totally agree. I don't really think you can judo your way out of experiencing the suffering that is inherent in life.

I was kind of stuck in that place for over a year.

Building your case zone.

Yes, and it was the only place that I could go to to feel safe, because I knew that I couldn't actually talk about it without being unsafe. So I was just living in my head. I can get obsessive and I absolutely felt like a lawyer. Yes. Like I'm just gonna build an unassailable case.

Oh, my goodness. Wow.

Oh, my goodness. And it was a lot of the same thing over and over, because there was nowhere for me to put it and because there were things happening in my house, there was a demand that they not get talked about.

Meaning publicly? Or even period? No, no. Like to your friends. you can't talk about me?

I talked about it with some friends, but with him. I couldn't talk about it.

Okay.

So it was act like everything's fine, or things will become very scary.

It was while you were still in this dynamic? Yeah. Or you had already exited it?

So I was with someone and this was somebody I lived with and, for all intents and purposes, my husband. Yeah, yeah. Really, we had embryos together. Oh wow. This was my person.

Yeah.

Was maybe he has a brain tumor, or maybe I have a brain tumor.

Something is so. Can I ask, was the relief? because I can still love them?

Then we can do something about it. There's an answer. There's an answer. And also that this change hasn't happened, because I've, either in the immediate recent past or just over the course of these years, have done something so horrible that I deserve to be living with this stranger who scares the shit out of me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Can I ask really quick what the threat was? I will leave, was that the threat?

It was not just, I will abandon you. It was, you will become so rejectable to me that I will leave. Because the fact that you even wanna talk about, it's nothing. Like. what are you talking about?

Nothing has changed. Gaslighting, it sounds like.

Yeah. Yeah. And it was also, I will scream at you until you are curled in a ball sobbing, and I will continue. And it was just like, I don't know who this person is. It was so terrifying.

And then was it. normally he's great, and then there are moments of intense, who is this person? Or did it start just-?

Did it become the mean average?

Basically, he came to visit me on a set and was acting just very strange, very distant. I was very confused. And I tried not to get in my head about it. after over a week of just being like, what on earth is going on? I finally asked him, are you okay?

And I'm assuming this is another girl that he has feelings for. Yeah.

I mean, the next year of my life became, no, I didn't. It was nothing. I shouldn't have even said anything. But immediately when we got back to this hotel room where I was filming, it became, I don't wanna talk about this.

What are you- He started to talk about it and then was like, actually, I don't want to. And you're like, but now I can't unhear that. But now I can't unhear this thing.

Again, this is really scary.

It was using the rationale, well, I'm not gonna be punished for being honest with you. Yes.

Which again, was not being punishing.

Yeah, it's going through what now needs to be gone through.

Yeah, it was just going, can we please talk about this? This is really scary and really confusing, and I love you and I wanna make it work. And also, if there's something that's been going on, like if you've been unhappy, tell me, I wanna know, I wanna work on it. And when I got home, it was kind of the same. Over the following week, I tried to bring it up three times.

You need to get over this.

I'm curled in a ball, you're screaming at me, I don't know how we got here. It was so alarming and it was so much easier for me to assume that I was crazy or doing something wrong. This is like a weird thing to say, but I ended up listening to the show a lot.

And this one.

This show.

Okay.

And so I think it would be like, if your dynamic was you're the kind of nutty one and Kristen's the saint, and everybody knows it, and then she's screaming at you and telling you you're crazy, I think you'd be likely to believe it.

Right, right, right, right, right, sure.

The world tells you something. Yeah, yeah.

I've just always felt he was so cool, calm, collected, that I must be provoking this.

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert. If you dare.

Yeah, I like that. Have you heard? the one, comparison is the thief of joy?

Yes.

That's a good one too.

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Where she is kind of carted off to-.

She talks about being kidnapped in the middle of the night and taken to that place. But more directly, she gets a boyfriend, mid-documentary, and then she has this big gig where she's gonna DJ in front of, I don't know, 100,000 people. And this guy gets drunk. He's now resentful. She has to be in interviews.

Yeah, I think you might be right. And it was really difficult for me to accept that, because I just thought of him as the best and also so deeply important to me. I was so madly in love with him that I thought, well, but surely you know how important you are because you're so important to me.

Exactly. And there was a permanence to it. It felt completely.

I would also argue there's a kind of a double betrayal, which is because I am this concept to the rest of the world, I need you so much. I'm my little human who takes shits and gets sick.

You know that more intimately than anyone. That was such a surprising piece of what unfolded. Basically, he caught feelings and everybody is totally allowed to feel how they feel about that in terms of what is and is not a deal breaker for them in any relationship. It was not a deal breaker for me. What are we doing?

Yeah.

Do you think it's cause you were in some weird way challenging his own identity?

Now, obviously I look at it and I go, this was such an intense shame trigger for him. The idea that I was the fucking cliche guy who fell in love with a girl who's 20 years younger than me. And you're just like, oh dude, you're so boring.

Yeah.

That part of it, first of all. The next part of it is, and then I screamed at my girlfriend until she was crying. I mean, that's a bad dude move. And we would go to couples therapy and I would try to open any conversation with, I totally understand the way that when we get attention from the opposite sex, especially when it's somebody attractive and someone interesting, that's so addictive. I mean, it's heroin.

Because it was genuine.

That I was doing something terrible to him.

He was in pain.

I'm the monster here. And yes, that pain is based on a distortion that has nothing to do with me. But I think that pain was absolutely real. This man is not a good actor. You know, like.

This is so much like a movie, by the way.

Curled in a ball, sobbing. Yeah. You know, going, I'm terrorizing you? But I don't think that he would have said it if it wasn't true.

Well, I have a theory.

Tell me.

I think, in his court case, at whatever point he decided to let you in on what he had felt about someone else, in his court case, you were gonna blow up. He was gonna be able to write that off as you overreacted and you're being unrealistic about the human condition. And you went the other way, which he was totally ill-prepared for, which is compassion, understanding, and an attempt to heal from it. And then he went, holy fuck, on top of it, she's that good. God, am I a fucking piece of, like?

Yes, and then her kindness-.

Is really demonstrating how bad of a mistake it was. Had you yelled at him, I bet he was prepared for that.

Oh, my God, that's so interesting.

I bet that in his mind was like, he was gonna be able to deal with that route, but you, being loving and understanding, he almost caught on fire with shame in that point. Yes.

And I'm sure he wants you in some ways to be the villain here. Of course, everyone wants the other person to be the villain.

No, but this is so wild, because about a year plus into this, I said, can we please go back to couples therapy? And we did a couple sessions of couples therapy. And then there was one session where, for the first time, I lost my mind. I started screaming, because once again, he was like, I just shouldn't have ever said anything. And I just started going, how does that help me?

Serene. Okay.

Yeah.

And I realized, oh, the worst thing that I could do to him is be calm and reasonable and kind and make good points. He would vibrate with shame, what I now understand to be shame.

I'm gonna add a layer. When he was developing this relationship on the side, he came up with a narrative about you that justified it. Yes.

Yeah, that's what I mean.

You're gone. He had this whole story about you where he was justified. And then he tells you, and then you're none of the things also that he's been telling himself to justify it. So it's like, A, this whole thing I concocted is bullshit. And B, she's showing me love and compassion.

Another layer is that I wasn't just unabashedly giving him daily heapings of praise. Uh-huh, right, right. Because that was just part of the dynamic. If you're my partner, I'm your cheerleader. And that was mutual.

You were protecting yourself.

Yes, on the daily going, you're brilliant, you're wonderful, I'm so lucky, which was every day for six years. So I think there was like a, oh, well, then, actually, clearly, you do make me feel like a piece of shit. And maybe this other girl will make me feel great.

Are you disappointed that it took you a year? What makes this story so plausible is that you've got so much invested. You've spent so much time together, you've frozen an embryo. You're so committed, you have to maintain hope that it can be salvaged.

A thousand percent. I have so much shame about not leaving.

Uh-huh.

Yeah.

And she's like, my shame of failing at this thing a second time was stronger than the physical abuse.

Oh, that's so sad.

And I'm like, oh, mom, mom, mom, mom, mom.

Oh, yeah.

The self-inflicted shame is so cruel.

What does it stem from, though?

It's a bunch. I've got a grab bag. It wasn't just the, oh, I'm losing a relationship. It was that I believed that if we broke up, or if he left, basically, it was a confirmation that it's because I'm impossible. I'm lucky that he's even tolerating my bullshit.

You have a line that says, he wouldn't love me if he knew how bad I am.

Yeah, that's another, yeah.

Which is the most heartbreaking line in it.

That line makes sense to me because in that moment, my character's in such a panicked, regressed state, because that's a very simplistic line, but it makes sense that at the core of it, when you're in that terror, panic, regression, that's how it comes out, and that's exactly how it feels.

That's what convinced you.

Yeah, when FKA Twigs was coming out and talking about her experience of abuse, she, I think, mentioned that she called a friend of hers, or maybe someone she used to date, and was like, how did you put up with me? And I had that impulse to call an ex of mine. We were together for five years and we're still very close. Call him and be like, was I just impossible? How did you tolerate me?

That's what I was wondering.

And there definitely was part of me that was like, my mother raised me better than this. How am I, the girl, during the pandemic, locked in my bathroom at the far side of my house that I own? because I'm such a bad motherfucker, right? Like, so fucking pathetic. You think you've got shit together and then I'm locked in the bathroom, FaceTiming with my two best friends and sobbing and whispering so that he doesn't hear.

Oh man. The saddest part for me is you gave someone the most incredible gift of compassion that didn't really deserve it. And you were able to give that. and you aren't giving any to yourself. You're giving zero compassion to yourself.

It's kind of like why con artists go uncaught. because it's so embarrassing to admit you've been conned.

Completely. It was hard for me to recognize this as an abusive relationship because it didn't follow the trajectory of the frog in water. This is unusual. that it's six years of very happy, loving relationship and then overnight shift. And the only thing that felt very similar was when I would hear stories about con artists.

Sociopath mode. Yeah.

I'm always like, how much do I even talk about this? Because the fact that I even ended up talking about it at all was kind of a mistake.

When you first admitted that the movie related. Yeah.

It was just like a 10 minute thing that was just on my schedule, and then I was onto the next thing. And for just a moment, I forgot the mantra of Anna, you're not under oath and they're not your friends. And I don't mean anything negative to that journalist. He didn't do anything wrong, but I just was saying it. And I think part of that was that very early, almost immediately after getting out, I started saying it to anybody that asked, like my plumber, like Darren, my plumber, like, just casually asked how things were, and I was like, really bad.

So here's what happened. Let me tell you all about it.

And it was like, I couldn't swallow the shame anymore. So it just started like.

Verbally now.

Yes, but that's what cures it.

I could not agree more, but definitely wasn't planning on that day in this 10 minute phoner to like just talk about it.

We also have bravery and courage, very flipped. You getting nominated for a role, it's not that brave. You love acting, you love singing, you're good at it. You worked hard at it. That's not hard.

That's so true.

If I ask you like, well, how did you learn to sing?

Oh, but can I tell you something really interesting? So I'm very fortunate to have a fan base of young women, particularly young queer women. And many times I've seen online people saying, you saved my life and whatever. And I always wanna say to them, I didn't, you saved your life. And like, just for one moment or two, something filled up your cup enough that day for you to do the unbelievably backbreaking work of saving your own life.

This one you're on right now. Armchair Expert Live.

I actually had to remind myself, I did that?

Yeah. Yes.

But this show, oh, that's so embarrassing.

Oh, my God, are you kidding? That's like the biggest honor we could ever get.

And, by the way, what I'm saying about the helpfulness is you're not gonna tell a story from your life that some young woman listens to, and they relate to being on Broadway. They relate to this. They relate to the success of Bitch Perfect. Someone listening is in a relationship identical and not someone, probably a few thousand people are listening. Oh, someone that powerful and strong and successful.

Yeah.

When you do get married and have a baby, we'll talk about it, but it's not gonna help anyone. People that are getting married and having babies, they're fine.

Right, right. Going back to the FK Twigs thing, I think there was something that she said. that was, you know, I just want people to know. this can happen to anybody. It doesn't matter if you're successful or whatever.

But not me. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And not because I think I'm smarter or stronger or something. Honestly, I'm like, I'm such an asshole. So the idea that I would be feeling so helpless just didn't track. And so I have also thought about the idea that people might hear this and they might relate to it. And so, of course, I've been trying to think of.

Yeah, well, I think what can happen, this is how AA works. at least, you're listening to someone from a safe distance and little things start feeling very familiar and relatable. And you're like, huh, what are the odds that that's 90% my story and that I'm so unique in the remaining 10? and that's not me? And it's not directed at me, and that's the magic of like group.

Yeah. I did start going to Al-Anon while all this was going on. I mean, look, I truly dismantled my life. And at first that was as a reaction to the accusation that I was crazy and I was the one causing the problem. So I had a conversation with CAA, my agency, and said, I need to take time off.

Can I ask, and this would be probably hard and painful for you to say, but he couldn't have found any purchase in your fears? had you not believed some element of this, I'm guessing at least.

Sure. There was a specific thing he went after. It did have an absolute kernel of truth, because at first it was you're insecure. And I was like, dude, I'm telling you. There were times when I was like, go to Burning Man and fuck 10 girls.

It's uniquely cruel, though, because you gave them a gift by being honest with them about your own insecurities and the stuff that you struggle with. And then to have it used against you is, to me, the worst thing someone can do to another person. It's so cruel. I mean, it's so bad. It's so bad.

Well, I mean, and also, yes, I did go into therapy going, tell me either how to force an outcome or tell me how to stop feeling any human feeling about this. And luckily I had a very talented therapist. I ended up going down to just one therapist eventually. And like, I'm totally obsessed with her, but then, like very slowly, she ended up, I didn't want her to. And probably if I had known that this was happening, I might've blown out of therapy.

Did you watch Stutz?

No, I haven't yet, but I cannot wait. It came out while I was filming and I am, I just saw the trailer, so I don't know where it goes, but I am like, oh, my impulse is to make a documentary about my therapist. And why do I have that impulse? What is that about that? I need her to love me and I'll prove that I'm the best little child you could possibly have.

Mom, hang it on the fridge, hang it on the fridge for me.

Cause this is how I get safe. I'm going to produce for you and I'm going to show you how much I love you.

I don't want to do this prematurely, because we're in a lovely zone, but I will say one thing's a quick compliment. So I've known Kristen for 15 years. She has only had jealousy over a single human. And it's been you. I never saw it.

I mean, I know this is an audio thing, but I really feel like I have like a comically shocked look on my face.

I thought that would interest you. Secondly, you guys are so fucking similar from the outside. I don't know you, but really young performer, singer, around adults, people pleaser, gotta be perfect. Her great arc, you know, we have different ones, crisscrossing, but hers is learning to not people please, learning to set boundaries, learning to be okay and at peace with the idea that not everyone will love them. That whole journey for her is her kind of journey.

First of all, so many things.

That's not actually how she feels. Can I ask, because I do this too, by the way. Luckily, sometimes I'm confirmed right. Most of the time I'm not. What proof in your mind when you were like, I don't think she likes me.

I couldn't tell you. Right. I couldn't tell you.

Just a hunch.

Well, this is so interesting because I don't know where to put that now, because maybe there was just some energetic thing there. In all likelihood there wasn't, but it was just my typical thing of certain women who look a certain way scare me. And I just assume that they won't like me. And I will also say another thought that was coming up as you were describing that, kind of going back to the, this kind of thing would never happen to me, because I'm such an asshole, is I definitely don't have a reputation that she has of being just the sweetest little honey bear. Like, absolutely not my reputation.

Oh, okay, okay. So you don't have a problem normally with having boundaries and being disliked?

It's really tricky. Somebody once told me, I was just about to work with someone and they were like, oh, I was asking around about you. And I was like, oh, what'd you hear? And they were like, oh, a friend of mine and I won't say who it is. And I've never found out who it was, which I would love to, genuinely, said that you are 10% defiant.

10% defiant, sure. I loved that so much.

That sounds like a compliment to me.