Holly & Bridget: Controlling Men 101 [VIDEO]

Bridget and Holly welcome to call her daddy.

Thanks for having us, yeah.

Thanks so much.

You guys, I was sitting, I think it was like the other week, and I was like, I need a Girls Girl episode. I just need to, like, talk to girls that get it. And I immediately thought of the two of you, and I'm like, you guys have to come on, so thank you for being here.

Oh, I love that.

Yeah, so first of all, it's crazy Holly, because I have a lot of new listeners and I'm thinking back to when we recorded our first episode together. There may be some people that, like, haven't heard it. So guys, if you haven't listened, go listen because it was amazing. But how long ago was that?

It was like two years ago and it was the first interview I'd done in like five years because I was totally anti doing PR. But I was a fan of your show and I thought, Well, this'll be fun. And then you inspired me to start my own podcast. You're totally my inspo because I had so much fun on that one.

It was such a good experience. And like, I agree, I think we were like, Oh my god, let's have a convo. We were like, getting so deep, We were both like emotional, We were like, Fuck, that was amazing, so thank you for getting so deep with me on that.

Well, we were living together at the Playboy Mansion for like seven years and we were on a show. A reality show called The Girls Next Door that was on from like, 2005 to 2009. And that's how we know each other, so it was complicated.

Yes.

To people that maybe are listening that are like, I don't even know what the Playboy Mansion is, I don't understand any of this. Please can you kind of, like, explain what the Playboy Mansion was like during that time?

The Playboy Mansion was the place to be at that time, in the early 2000s. Everybody wanted to be there. Every celebrity, every girl that I knew of wanted to be a part of it. Wanted to be a playmate, wanted to go to the parties, had the best parties in the world there.

Yeah, it's like a fairy tale, it looks like from the outside with all these beautiful women. So it's like, what girl wouldn't want to? Just like, pop in and get like a living space to be around all these people. When you talk about these parties, who was the most famous person you ever saw at a party? Give some context, like the caliber of people that were at these places.

Well, at the time, it was like the biggest movie stars like Leonardo DiCaprio and Jim Carrey and Cameron Diaz and people like that. That's Clooney, yeah. And the crazy thing is, nobody had like smartphones back then, and you were not allowed to bring cameras in. If you got caught with a camera, you'd be immediately kicked out.

I don't think anyone ever, in generations moving forward, will ever experience that type of like anonymity when they walk into a room at a party. No, like the concept. And I can imagine like it maybe was more freeing for a lot of people to know like, you're not going to. I literally wake up the next day sometimes after parties. And I see like, I'm tagged in a video and I'm like, Oh my God, like, I smile like that, or I'm like, breathing that way.

Well, when I was just a guest there, it felt very free and like you were kind of a fly on the wall and just watching everybody. But once we moved in and were Hef's girlfriends, you were kind of required to sit at the table the whole time. Unless you had to, like, run to go to the bathroom and you could get up and dance a little bit. But you were kind of like greeting everybody that came to say hi to him, so it wasn't like we definitely didn't feel free, I don't think.

No, we had to-.

We didn't get trashed, but right, right, right.

We had to say, with an eye shot of HEF and the area. Like, we couldn't just go walking around and be like, let's go check this out, let's go enjoy this party.

Also, I wonder, did you guys ever want to not get too drunk? Because then would you do something that you would be in the morning? Like, Oh, am I not going to get in trouble? Did you guys ever have to wash yourselves? Because I'm sure people are doing drugs and drinking and all the things. What was that dynamic?

I did, too, but I feel like for me, too, it was part of a way to disassociate a little bit. Just because a lot of the things that were going on at the house I wasn't really comfortable with, and that was just kind of like my escape. But I was trashed all the time.

You're like, I was hammered, actually, Alex, so thank you, absolutely not. Was I ever sober? Obviously, back then, there was such a beauty standard, I think that was very specific to the mansion and the playboy world. Can you guys talk about that? What were you expected to look like?

Rampant. There was a lot of bulimia at the mansion, to the point where people would end up in the hospital. Sometimes to the point where bathroom pipes had to be replaced. Which I didn't believe that rumor for a while because I was like, No, that's too over the top. You don't have to replace a bathroom pipe because of somebody's stomach acid. But then somebody confirmed that that was true.

Did you guys ever have to wash yourselves? Did you guys both experience problems and struggles with eating?

I've never had really an eating disorder per se, but I used to count every single calorie. And I was really obsessed with being very, very thin. And I definitely experienced body dysmorphia. Where I would see footage of myself and think, Oh my God, I let myself really get out of control. This is so embarrassing. I look back on that footage now and I'm like, Wait, what was I thinking? Tiny? Yeah, because back then the beauty standard was just like you had to be so thin.

What about you, Bridget?

I did not have an eating disorder, but I look back at all of the footage from girls next door. And I was really. They tried to fat shame me, basically, and they tried to make me. I'm the big girl, the heavy girl of the group. And they tried to shame me for eating in every way they could. And I remember noticing it at the time and talking to the producer about it and telling him. It really upset me that he did that. Because I felt like I had a really healthy relationship with food and exercise and was not heavier than the other girls. But still, to this day, people think that I am the fat one from the show.

It's so interesting you say that because I remember watching the show and I didn't remember that until you're saying it. I'm like, Oh yeah, I do remember the concept of, if you weren't actually to the point where you looked sickly, then you were fat, considered fat. Wait, so producers said that to you, to your face.

Well, I told him that I didn't appreciate it and he just said, It's funny, and he thinks it's funny. He thinks it's a funny gag that he keeps doing to me.

But you never ended up succumbing to that pressure, and you never had then issues with eating.

Never had issues with eating, but I'm always worried about it and especially after that. Now. Now I'm always and people will come up to me and still be like, Oh, you've lost a lot of weight, and I'm just like, What are you talking about?

Right? First of all, shut the fuck up, don't comment on people's bodies. how about that? and, second of all, shut the fuck up.

A hundred percent, yeah. To the point where, on the way over here, I was talking about how cool it was that Pamela Anderson went to Fashion Week in No Makeup. And I'm like, I will never be brave enough to do that, but I'm glad somebody is like, Thank God.

Right, no, you're so right. Yeah, what about you, Bridget? Like, when you're just like alone with yourself, looking in the mirror, like, are you still finding yourself being like? Almost like regressing to those days of like, look this way, feel this way?

Absolutely, yeah, dude. Oh, it's something I think about every day, multiple times a day.

Yeah.

I feel like it's so hard to deprogram from, like I would love to say I've evolved past that, but it would take a lot longer.

But I don't even think like, I agree with you guys, but I also don't even think like, of course, you guys were in a situation where it was so over the top and like, to the absolute extreme. But I feel like so many women that are going to listen to this are going to be like me too. Like, I don't know one woman that doesn't have some type of insecurity because of the way they look. Not because they actually felt about themselves, but because either society or someone said something to their face and was like, you should look this way. Or I don't like that about you, like, Oh, you're fat, or Oh, you're this, and then it stays with you.

That's the perfect word for it.

And if it's not weight, it's age, too.

Talk about that.

Like, you shouldn't be dressing like that, or you should look your age or whatever. And I feel like I am looking my age, I'm looking how I want to look, like this is how I want to look.

I did something recently where people were like, you're getting too old. To party like this is not cute. And I'm like, I want to be fucking 80 in the nursing home, like ripping shots, like going.

Out on a bang. And you should like, who cares? If that's what you want to do, that's what you should do.

As we get older, and it's something that I've thought about a lot of, is like, I started the show when I was pretty young. And like, it's sad to say this, but I'm realizing like it is such a privilege to get older. Like, we're all so fortunate if we make it to 35, make it to 40, make it to 50, like, that's a fucking privilege. And to even see like signs of life on your body, of like wrinkles, like, Oh my God, you've lived, you've gone through shit.

Yeah, I mean, that was definitely a thing at Playboy. I feel like the unspoken cutoff age for, like, a playmate was 28. Like there would be a few outliers here and there, but usually, like, 28 was kind of like, Hmm, she's 28, you know? And it's just like, I never want to put a limit on myself like that for anything.

It's actually when you say that, it's so interesting to me to be like, if anything, the young women should like, refrain a little bit. Because you're getting to know yourself like you want to understand yourself before, you're actually just like putting it out there to the world. Once we hit a certain age. I'm like, I know how to handle the criticism, I know that, like, men aren't shit that are objectifying me. It's like we should continue to celebrate at every age.

Not at all. I feel like life just keeps getting better and that I want it to keep getting better, and I think that's the way it should be for everybody.

Wasn't there something about like, people would take polaroids of you and then they would grade your polaroid? And that would like determine what parties you were allowed to get invited to? Yes, can you explain that?

Well, when you would arrive to a party, if you were a female, they would take a polaroid of you. And then Hef would go through all of them after the party and grade them like a, B, C, or D. D you're not invited back c. You're maybe on the big party list. B. You're like, on all the party lists, like big or small. And then a. You'd get invited to like the pool parties and stuff like that.

Dude, was there anyone at the time between the women that was like, guys, this is like, kind of fucked up or no?

I don't think so because I feel like we were so ingrained in it that that seemed like like it sounds crazy. Talking about it now. But I feel like the graded polaroids seemed like the least of the issues to me at the time.

Well, I remember I knew about the polaroids because obviously I've had them taken of me before, but I didn't realize the grading on them until later. And I remember being kind of shocked by that and be like, Oh, they're great, oh, that's how these work.

Bridget's like, taking the photo, like, how do I look? And then later you're like, Oh fuck, that was for a grading system.

Yeah, totally, totally.

When you just said that, Holly, it made me think, like, Okay, if that was like, the least of your worries, can you guys talk to me about? As a woman? Looking back now, with hindsight, what was the hardest moments that you're like? Damn, that was so fucked up of how objectified we were being as women for our bodies and our looks. And no one gave a fuck about what we had in the inside.

I mean, I think, I mean, there's so many layers to that. I think for me personally, when I think about the worst thing, I just think about. Like, anything in the bedroom and just the fact that, like, anybody would be invited in there. And like, we didn't get to agree on who got to come in and who got to watch and who got to do whatever, and it was just traumatizing.

Yeah, oh, I didn't realize, so he could invite people in to watch you guys.

Well, I mean, I think he wanted everybody to participate, but sometimes people wouldn't. And you would get the feeling with some people they were just looky loose. Yeah, totally. And then some people would go like, blog about it and I'm like, Okay, that's kind of like revenge porn a little bit, you know what I mean?

Not even a little bit like, full fucking blown, what about you, Bridget? Like, what comes to mind?

I mean, it definitely has to be the bedroom, it can't get any worse than that. But it also was like the Mean Girls era that we like to refer to. Because I just feel like we had no voice during that whole time. It was really hard.

How did you find your voice when you left the mansion?

I felt like I went through a couple of years of like, deprogramming kind of. Because when I left there, like, obviously, I knew it was fucked up enough that I didn't want to stay. But after being there for seven years and being in like, the kind of this cult-like environment where everybody worships this one person for the longest time. If anybody, like press or otherwise, would ask me about it, I'd be like, Oh, everything's great, he's great, everybody's great. Because, I mean, a. I just didn't want to, like, get into it publicly. I just wasn't ready for that yet and I thought that was the nice thing to do.

Also, even you just saying that like it makes me think about how there's so many people online that and not even about you. Just like anyone that does something that they regret, even like women that did porn, that they're like, I look back now and I wish I didn't do that. People are like, but you did it, you benefited from it, you're there.

Yeah, when people say that, I mean, I just don't really know what their point is like, am I? Because I have two choices at this point.

True Bridget, what about you when you left, like, what was that like, repairing your self image and and who you were? Independent of? The mansion?

I think I'm still working on that, I don't think I've done that yet. I did, I kind of left and still did. Beaches, My Beaches show for the Travel channel, and I'm still kind of hosted. And I just sort of put it all behind me. I didn't really like, um, look back into it much at all or anything like that.

I felt like I didn't for a second either, because when you leave the mansion, you realize, Fuck, okay. I have had a platform from being on a reality show, so I need to hit the ground running now. If I'm going to, like, survive so you're in survival mode, you're not thinking about going back like it wasn't. Until a good couple of years after I left, I was looking through that girl's next door coffee table book. We did that had all these candid shots of us. Because I was trying to find a certain picture and I looked at myself and I'm like, Holy shit, I'm fake smiling in all these pictures, like.

I noticed, Bridget, like, you got a little emotional when you just said that.

Well, I think doing this pod, not this podcast, but our Holly and I's podcast, UM, is helping me. Like, look back on some of the things and some of the things that I'd forgotten about. And um. And then I also started writing a book too, and that's kind of opened some things up. And I'm so I'm. I feel like I'm just now in that area, but I don't think I did it before.

Yeah, can you talk to me a little about that, like, how does it make you feel?

It's, it's a it's a rollercoaster ride, cause like, there's. When we first started, it was, it was emotional and it was bad. And I told Holly when she first asked me if I wanted to do this podcast of recapping the show, I was like, Oh yeah, I like, I have great memories, like, everything's good, I have nothing bad to say. Like, we're going to be like the the you're going to be like, Oh yeah, that was an awful.

Time.

And I'd be like, it was great, it was amazing, and it is, that is sort of how it is. Still, my my recollection of everything is, um, or my experience that I had with things was a little bit more positive than what Holly had. Not that there wasn't negative things, but, like, generally more positive.

What was the situation?

It was episode two, so season one, episode two, it was supposedly our, um, our episode. Holly was supposedly episode one, I was episode two and Kendra's episode three, and um, episode two. And it has me trying to get the playmates drunk and talk about how jealous I am that they get to get it and I don't. I'm sabotaging them and stuff which was not.

I'm so sorry. And I that's something that's so weird about podcasting, which I'm like, happy, sad for you guys, because, like you said, you're doing a rewatch podcast and it. It almost makes you have therapy sessions every week, right?

Where you're like, I think so.

Holly Like, we went through that, we did that. And again, you guys knowing which must be kind of cathartic, but also kind of fucked up to be like, wait, pause. That's not how it went down, that's not what happened.

Oh, like when I was young, like I always functioned, I feel in a healthy way sexually, like from high school onward. But I just, I don't know if it was like, I wasn't emotionally ready to deal with a relationship or the possibility of getting feeling attached to somebody through sex.

It's such a weird time when you're younger, cause you're like, that didn't feel good when I had sex with him. And then you're like, if you start masturbating, you're like, Oh, I think this is nice. But also like, Oh, my God, don't let anyone know, or else I'm going to fucking hell. And then it's like, when you start having sex at that age, like it's really not about finding pleasure for yourself, like it is still about the man.

Can I say one more thing about the masturbation? Before you please come back? I will say that that is one positive thing for me. That came out of the mansion. And the upstairs bedroom thing is that, um, that became very normalized with the Mr. Hitachi.

Yeah, just like people would just like usually like, roll over with their vibrator.

We stop.

Yes.

There was a bunch of vibrators who were like, Oh, yeah, sorry.

Let me, let me sling the scene really quick, like we Bridget, what's the Mr. Hitachi? There's, there's a vibrator called Mr. Hitachi.

Okay.

Is it called Mr. Hitachi?

I thought it was, Oh, maybe I call him Mr. Hitachi.

This was the man in my life for seven years while I was at the mansion. Okay, this is what got me off.

But I'm just like, Um, so we have those at the mansion. And um, I'm just going to say that was like, amazing. And that opened my eyes to what could happen. And um, I saw Mr. Hitachi today.

I think we like, asked for them for stocking stuffers, we did, cause they're incredible.

If you don't have one, get on Amazon right now.

What kind of what do you have to order it from the Hitachi site because Amazon sells knockoffs that break? Oh, no.

What does it look like?

It's a giant thing, it's like a Jackhammer and it's white.

Oh, that big thing on the end, yeah.

It almost looks like a microphone, yeah.

Yes.

And it's for backs and stuff, too. Supposedly, you know, that's what they say, but everybody knows what that's for.

I actually was gifted one and I remember trying to use it. It's like, that is like an arm workout, it's like, kind of really heavy.

You'll get used to it, Oh, okay.

Bridget's like, Do you see these guns? bitch? Okay, okay, so you're saying?

And we're not allowed to date.

Right?

So you're like, my best friend is my vibrator.

And there was a long period where there was no bedroom anymore either. So there was like three years or four years or something like that. Where we're not allowed to date and there is no bedroom, so it's like,-.

Mr Hitachi Oh my God, I love that. I know that's going to go on sale.

We need a graphic of like a stocking, like a Christmas stocking.

Wait, let me give you my Amazon code.

Literally Bridget.

Get that coin, bitch, let's go.

That's so funny and so you literally would just be like, Okay, fuck this, like, I'm going to roll over and like. And then you ended up really leaning into being able to be like, Okay, I can masturbate and get myself off. This doesn't have to be full, hell yeah.

And it didn't make me feel so embarrassed about it either, like I felt very. It made me feel like this is a natural thing that we should be doing.

Without getting like, too graphic, because, like, when whatever you guys are comfortable with, I have a lot of women write in of. Just like being in situations that you're not comfortable. But not knowing how to speak up for yourself. And basically being kind of pressured into doing something that you almost can't even comprehend until you have time away from it, Bridget and Holly talk to me about just like those moments. That, like, as a woman, you didn't know you were expected to have sex with this man. Or do all of this like mentally, as young women, where were you at in just this experience with this situation sexually?

I feel like I was just so in over my head and so drunk that first night and like, it's not like. I didn't know that sex was going to go on upstairs, but I thought, well, this is my first time out with them who has sex. On the first date, I'll just go up and like, see what's going on. But I was super wasted and, you know, shit just happened.

For me, I full on knew that that was going to be expected. But I too, thought, well, the first night, though, like, surely I can just be like, Oh, it's the first night? and like, get out of this. And I didn't even want to go upstairs the first night. But then I was pressured by another girl who said, If you ever want to be invited out again, you better get your ass upstairs. Wow.

Yeah, there was another girl who we call the recruiter, and there were different people who, like, functioned as the recruiter over the years. And it's just interesting how these men who victimize other women often have, like a woman like a Ghislaine Maxwell type. That will go out and get the other girls and make them feel comfortable or pressure them. Harvey Weinstein had people like that, too. It's crazy.

It's like they make you feel like you actually have no choice. And it's like, woman to woman, like, let's go, let's do this. And you're kind of like, I guess it's almost like the biggest bully. That, like, leads the charge that if you say no, you're completely done and it's like you don't have a minute to think for yourself. When you say you knew you had to do these things, did, like girls, say that to you.

Well, I had been hanging out long enough that I knew what was going on up there, and I'd heard all kinds of rumors of what happened in the limo. And when Hep asked me the first time to come out, I said, Oh, I've heard what happened and I don't want to do that. And he was like, Oh, and he just like, laughed it off and was not offended by that.

Yeah.

So I knew, I knew that that was going to be expected of me and I. I put a lot of thought into that because it wasn't something that, like I. I wasn't promiscuous, I didn't have, like a lot of people that I had been with, that wasn't something I was like, excited to be doing.

Can you talk to me, Bridget, about, like, after that first night, what? what were you going through?

Torture in my own head that very next morning, like I felt ashamed, I felt disgusting, I felt like I really let myself down.

And then what happened?

Then I went, I still had an apartment, like I wasn't living at the mansion yet, and I went back to my apartment. And then that night, that afternoon, the mansion, like. The social secretary has called and said, Hef wants you to meet tomorrow and go, or tonight and go to the Craig Kilbourn show. With him and all his girlfriends. He's going to be on it and wants you to do that.

That's so interesting, too, to be like leaving in a moment for women, and I think that's the most annoying. When people are like, Well, then why did you go back? why did you go back? Like, I feel like that's such a common thing, whether it was an abusive situation where it's like, why didn't you leave? why didn't you go back?

Well, now it's the point where I've done it now. So like, now if I leave and I just throw this all away now, like I did it all for nothing, like no way.

And you feel like everybody knows, right? Yeah, because that's kind of your social circle, too. Like, I felt like my two roommates had, like, moved away and right before I moved in. Like, this was the mansion community, it was a place I like, went every Sunday for the pool parties.

Can you guys talk to me a little bit about that of like, cause I? It is sadly so relatable. Bridget of like, what you guys were saying of like, I already did it. Like, it's even, I think, when women are in a situation that's like, well, now he's hit me twice, but like, he's not going to do it again. And then when it happens again, you're like, but that's the last time. Like, you rationalize in your mind, cause you're kind of trying to survive through this shit once, you just kind of threw yourself into that world. Did you guys ever have moments by yourself in those rooms to be like, what, what is happening?

We would definitely vent to each other about certain things. But a lot of it, I feel like, was deflected for a couple of years. Because there were seven girlfriends, a lot of them we didn't get along with. There was a lot of bullying and things like that, and I didn't recognize it at the time. But looking back, I feel like he kind of, like, encouraged that and kind of. It's like you keep people, it's like divide and conquer, like you keep, like two sides divided.

I'm curious to know, because obviously, like you guys experienced one of the biggest like, what do you guys think drives controlling men?

Insecurity, like you would look at someone like him and think he has no reason to be insecure. He's so successful, he has so many women around him, he throws the best parties, but that man was so insecure.

I think he was really afraid of dying alone.

Yeah, so he's like, I'm going to have 10 girlfriends at all times, so I'm not alone. wow.

Or being, and not even just dying alone, but just being alone at all. Like if somebody. He didn't even want to let us go home for the holidays. So, and at some points he had, like, over seven girlfriends, right?

You're like, bro, also like, we barely talk, like, let's keep it, like, come on when after you guys got out of there, like, did you find yourselves like?

Well, for me, I went straight into another relationship that mirrored the playboy relationship in some ways, and got out of that very quickly. And that was kind of like a gift, in a way that it showed me that this is a pattern. This isn't just anomaly behavior, because this man was in a position, this is something that any man can do if he wants to. So luckily, I was shown that very quickly and realized what I didn't want.

Amazing, can you talk? because I'm sure a lot of girls listening being like, Wait, Holly, like, what can we look out for? Like, not even just talking about half, like, what are some things, even in that next relationship that like, when you look at someone that is controlling like that, like, what are things that? Maybe in the moment you're like, is that a red flag? But you can kind of sweep under the rug, like, what's something that you now are like? Don't let this happen, don't let this happen.

I think the first sign is definitely moving too fast. Or, you know what people call love bombing, like. I remember after I went out with Hef and the girls the first time, he called me to invite me out the next time and he said, I love you.

Or make you feel bad for wanting to go see your family or whatever and wanting you to spend it with them. But they make it seem like it's romantic, like, Well, I want to spend it with you, I want you here with me and stuff. But it's really they don't want you to go see your family.

That's so interesting, too, which I know it's probably so hard again when you're in it, but you're so right. It's like, if you write it down on a piece of paper, like, what are they telling you that they want to spend the holiday with you? But what is actually like, physically happening? I'm not allowed to see my family because of this. And you're so right, Holly.

No, I met somebody right out of the gate, out of the mansion. I mean, I met him at the mansion actually, and we've been together for 15 years ever since.

Girl.

Oh my god.

Wait, how did you know?

I guess I don't really believe in love at first sight or anything like that, but I definitely thought he was so hot at first sight. And it had to be a little bit of a slow burn because I wasn't allowed to date, but yet I thought he was really hot. And he was a director, so I was producing a horror movie and I was looking for directors. And so it started with, like, just some text, like actual emails, like business wise and working together like that. And then as soon as I knew my foot was like, it wasn't even fully out of the door. But it was like reaching over the threshold. We were like dating.

Oh my God, your relationship to men. I feel like it's really difficult as women when you're wronged by so many men. And treated the way that you were and spoken to the way that you were.

I mean, I feel like I'm lucky. I've had experience with good men as well. And I think it's just. I'm 44 now and I kind of don't give as much of a fuck about what other people think. So I'm able to speak up for myself more. And if somebody is doing something that I think is based in sexism, I'll just say it.

And I don't care, yeah, yeah, I fucking love that, yeah.

I go through phases, it depends on my mood. I think like, I know I'm with a really good guy and um. But there's some things that happen sometimes and I can't even think of a specific example at the moment. But like, something will happen and I'll be like, I fucking hate men like Jesus. And then and then my boyfriend will be, or my husband will be like, Oh, you know what?

Right, he's like, Uh, babe.

Yeah.

Like, love you.

And you're like, Oh wait, yeah. I think it's important to just acknowledge and talk about, because I think the hatred can be real. And it's, and it's justifiable. And it and it, it makes me upset. Where, like, I know, for so long, even with like the feminist movement, people were like, Oh God, like, you're just a man hater, it's not that.

I definitely have like trust issues like it takes a minute.

Talk to me about that.

I mean, I just takes me like a really long time, like in my last couple of relationships. I moved pretty slow just because I really wanted to get to know people. And I would even talk with my friends who've also been in toxic relationships. And we came up with a thing like, how long does it take for a guy to show his toxicity? Cause they always act real cool.

You're like, at this six month mark, maybe, but until then, keep your fucking distance. Yeah, that's so true. It kind of is that three to six.

It really is, and it's crazy looking back to think that. Like, you could even get into a relationship where you're like, straight up living with somebody and feeling dependent on them within three months. But it happens all the time.

And again, like we're still programmed, we're still, like all of us are born with internalized misogyny, like we're born into this world. And it's like men rule women, like it's still that way, like we're having to unlearn it.

I mean, little things will set me off, like somebody's tone, the way they talk to me and stuff. Or a guy will tell me to smile. Which sends me, sends me.

Like, give me a pretty smile and you're like, shut the fuck up, like, literally just shut up.

Like things like that happening, I'm just like, I hate men.

Can you give advice to girls that maybe are sitting there being like, am I in one of those situations right now? Like, how do you get out? How do you actually leave something like that? That's so all consuming and suffocating.

I think first, like making a plan for yourself on what you're going to do. Because oftentimes, when people are stuck in these relationships, there's a financial element. And a lot of when people want to criticize and be like, Well, why didn't you leave? Nobody says that to somebody when it's a job, like if somebody has a sucky boss or a toxic work environment, they might complain about it for days. But you understand why they're there, because they need the paycheck. But if you're in a relationship or a living situation where there's some kind of financial component, people like, Well, why don't you just fucking leave?

You know, that's a good point.

Yeah, stupid.

And I do think that's a good point that you said of, like a lot of the times. Also, the reason that it's hard to get out of something is because you can't, you don't tell anyone, so like, you can't confide in people. The person that you talk to the most is the person that's basically abusing you and so you're like, Where do I go now?

And they oftentimes want to isolate you. I think the best thing is coming up with a plan like, what are you going to do for work? where are you going to go? Who's your support system?

Davie Money, yeah.

What do you guys think is like the biggest misconception about you? As like former playmates, like, what do you think is something that, like, maybe frustrates you?

That we're one dimensional, I think.

Unintelligent. Yeah, bimbos, I said that at the start of the show, and I'm still saying that 20 years later. People think we're bimbos. If you're blonde and have big boobs and we're in playboy, you're clearly not very smart.

What do you say to those people?

I feel like I'm just tired of defending and I feel like I've proved myself. I have a master's degree. Like we have a successful podcast, we've had successful careers. I mean, what more do you want?

Yeah, yeah.

People are always going to say that. The fact that I like pink, the fact that I like barbies, the fact that I love Halloween, all of that is like, belittled and like, you can't be intelligent and like those things, too.

It's so true, it's like, if you are just like a beautiful woman that people like to look to, like, look at. Sometimes you're just reduced to your looks. And it's like, there's no way that she's smart, there's no way that they have brains, like, there's no way.

Don't be so hard on yourself I mean, it's easy for me to say now, because I know like everything turned out fine. But I would go back and be like, Don't be so miserable, don't be so hard on yourself. It's not the end of the world, you know?

Yeah, things do work out. Like, because there were times where I didn't think it was going to. There was times where I was like, I have to have a plan B now. I don't think I'm going to be here tomorrow kind of thing.

It's we're all our own worst enemies. But I can't thank you guys enough for coming because I feel like there's so many themes that now, and I'm sure you guys are talking about on your show, that like, it's relatable what you guys have been through. And it's taking a different form in every generation, but, like, it's still happening.

Yeah, I think so, too.

Right, I don't know if you guys thought for a while, did you guys feel like you were just like? In its own bubble of like, no one can relate? And now do you guys kind of feel like you're like, seeing like, fuck? This is like, kind of what a lot of women go through.

Absolutely, I remember when we were at the mansion, I didn't feel like I was necessarily setting a bad example by being there, being on TV. Because I'm like, well, this couldn't happen anywhere else. Like, I know this situation sucks for me in a lot of ways, but it doesn't happen anywhere else, but it does happen a lot of other places like.

Even you saying that I'm like promoters. I remember in college, like I didn't want to hook up with this one guy, but like, he was getting all of my friends and I into this place. And I'm just like, in his car and I'm like, OK, and like, he's like, kind of pressuring me, and I'm like, I don't know what to say. And it's like, it's difficult, but it's like, you see it everywhere.

Thank you.

Thank you, Leah, thank you.

Thank you.