Episode 436: Harvey Glatman "The Glamour Girl Slayer" Part 2

Hey you weirdos, I'm Elena, I'm Ash, and this is morbid.

It's morbid. In the afternoon, we do it all day, we do it in the morning, we do it at night.

We do it in the afternoon and sometimes we do it at night-night, it's like night, but different. And later.

But earlier? But now it's just in the nice afternoon after we've had a salad, it's actually 3-3-3, which is my good luck time. Oh, look at that, I know.

Oh man, an angel number. I saw 2-2-2 and I saw 3-3-3. today, I keep seeing 4-4-4s in my life.

Yeah, you love 4-4-4.

Yeah, I already told you this, so it won't be new to you. But I saw this TikTok guys and it was saying, it was like, you're at like, a change in your life. And I said, I'm woo, let me hear it.

I'm woo, I'm woo, tell me about it, it said. You're going to start seeing repeating numbers. I said, check.

I see angel numbers all the time, even like not even times, but like addresses. Like, I'll drive past a house and I'm like, Oh shit, 5-5-5, look at that. And then it said, you're going to start waking up in the night between like 3 and 4 in the morning.

And then when you go and it said that and I was like, Okay, I already do that literally every night I wake up at 3 and then it said. You're going to start having these vivid, vivid dreams which in the morning, once you've gone back to sleep, which has started happening to me. I've told Elena about some of my crazy ass dreams this guy knew.

And he knew, and I forget what happens after that. It wasn't bad, um, but I mean, I'm at like, a point of spiritual awakening, I guess. Oh, look at you.

And it's funny because a lot of you guys actually have been messaging me, seeing if I'm okay, which we appreciate, which I appreciate. I'm totally fine. We had like some family stuff going on which, like, sucked, but I don't want to really talk about it.

Yeah, that's why we had to. We missed one listener tale last week. I believe it was, Yeah, I was out of the office, I had to attend some stuff.

Yeah, there was some stuff going on, but everything's okay, everything's cool, everything's good and gravy. But I'm at a spiritual awakening in my life, so that's fun.

That is fun, yeah, but you know, oh my god, do you know what we get to do? I think it's two weeks from this week, what?

So in two weeks we can go to the obituary show, we can go to the obituary show. Yes, hell yeah, I'm very excited about obituary.

Our show that's on our network with, it's not our show, it's Spencer and Madison's show, but they're on our Mormon network. They're our babies.

They are going on a world tour, like a straight up world tour. I've shared the and I know you have, too. Is it a world tour or is there like a national tour? Well, it's a U.S. tour. I was like, wait, are they leaving the country?

No, not yet, anyways, not yet. I don't. I'm not here to spoil it, I'm not going to live it there.

Yeah, I'm not going to clip their wings. It's called manifestation. Look it up. So they currently right now are on a U.S. tour, sorry, Europe, but we get to go to the Boston Show.

We're going to be there, and if you're not there to support our friends, are you even our friends? Are you even our friends? Oh my god, that show is going to be March 1st and I am so fucking stoked about it.

March 3rd, they're going to be in New York City, March 6th, Washington, D.C. March 8th. I'm reading all of these too, just so, you know, Philadelphia, the 29th, they're going to be in San Francisco, California, y'all.

Whoa, then they go to Portland March 31st. And for the rest, I'm not going to read all of them too, because that's actually a lot. I started saying it and then I was like, maybe I shouldn't do that. We're going to link the rest of the show dates in our show notes and we will post them on Instagram.

But I think you guys should come see us at the Boston show, hang out with us and see. Spencer and Madison put on the glorious show of Ever be the beautiful goddesses that they are. Support of. Geoffs, Hell yeah, or else?

Because that show is so fucking funny. Guys, oh my god, I can't wait. They are so good and they're like the most delightful people ever, so it's support them.

Yeah, they're some of my favorites, so yeah. We'll put the link to all their upcoming shows and then where you can buy tickets in our show notes. Indeed, yay. So come join us at the Obituary Show on the East Coast.

Let's go, let's fucking go, girls, I am ready for that, I can't wait.

You know what I'm not excited about, though? Part two of Harvey Glove, Part two of Harvey Glove. Yeah, I'm actually going to need you to, just like, head right into this because you left on a fucking cliffhanger and a half. I sure did.

I think when I left you guys, we talked about the third victim, which is Ruth Marcado.

He's already killed two other women at this point, he's attacked countless others. I was going to say, it feels like so much more than that because he's just attacking everybody left and right, like a big, giant asshole. It's pretty terrible and he's doing it in kind of the same way each time.

He's got a really like, pretty consistent M.

O, He uses rope, he strangles, he brings them out to the L..A. desert.

Claims he doesn't want to do it, claims he doesn't want to do it. It's all ridiculous. He's really annoying. It's so crazy to me that he and I think I said this last time too, but I'm saying it again.

I'm saying it, I'm saying it. He says that he doesn't want to do this. Like, Oh, I sat there and I really struggled with myself, but then he does the exact same thing every time.

So clearly you liked this, you didn't do this thinking you were getting any different kind of result. No, he's a lying sack of shit. It makes me angry, like, don't be a murderer.

Step one, but step two. Fucking own your shit, yeah, own it. He's definitely a lying sack of shit.

And we're going to see at the end of this episode. You're going to get a little glimpse at him. That you're like, you're, yeah, like you don't feel anymore. No, I don't think he does anyway. And what's even worse about this is this took place in, like the late Fifties and the LAPD, for Ruth Mercado's murder, her photo didn't appear in the LAPD bulletin. I said this at the end of the last episode, but just to recap you. It didn't appear in there until two months after she had gone missing, and the notes on it were. May seek employment at nude modeling or as a stripper, and mental condition poor.

It's like, Um, who did you ask about that? It's like, I don't know because his mental condition is poor. Yeah, I would say.

Some would say even worse than that. And I think this was one of those things where they they looked at it, like, Oh, she's, she was a stripper, yeah, and a nude model, so who gives a shit?

It's like, okay, first of all, I know that all you detectives have playboy under your bed. So I don't know what your issue is with nude models, and second of all, you're all going to strip clubs, so what's your problem? And it's a job, they are going to a job, and they are making money.

Exactly, shut the fuck up. I don't under. I hate how that, just like, played, and I'm sure it's still, and we know, still does play a part. In cases. It's like, who gives a fuck what somebody does as a profession? As long as they're not hurting themselves or someone else, exactly.

And it's like, who are you to say what is a valid profession and what isn't? Yeah, like you could say that about anything like we're podcasters, that doesn't sound like a valid profession.

Like, you know what I mean? Like? I've had many people look at me like, it's not a valid profession, but we do it, it's a job.

It's like paying bills, like that's, it's like that's what a job is, like, you go, you work, you work hard, you put your energy into it, and it pays your bills, right? That's supposed to be what it is.

At least it's like, it's so fucked up it is, I don't like it. no, it makes me mad.

So unfortunately, we ended on another murder. But we are going to enter into finally him getting caught, and not because he was caught through, like good old fashioned police work. Never this is the fifties, isn't it? Nope, nope.

He was caught because this bad, bad bitch Lorraine got away from him. Oh, I like that name a lot. Yeah, Lorraine really went for it. I was going to say, I said, this is the fifties, and I forgot to mention the LAPD is on the case.

Exactly so there's a lot working against this in the fifties. That's called the lose-lose. That is a lose-lose situation at this point in time, at least. And so, after murdering Judy Dahl, Shirley Bridgeford and Ruth Marcado, Harvey was almost immediately ready to kill again.

He was not, yeah, he did not want to wait, but he did let six months pass by. He wanted to kill right again, but he was. He knew there was some heat on, not necessarily on him, but he didn't want to slip up, yeah.

Fortunately for us, he does, and everyone else exactly now. During this time, he got another job as a TV repairman, a repairman. Because, remember, he did that in Sing Sing prison, like that was what he would make his money on on the side. My God, I forgot that he went to sing sing.

Yeah, he sure did.

But at this point he was kind of starting to lose it a bit and lose it in the sense that he could not stop thinking of abducting and killing women. Like he was obsessing over it, like he couldn't keep his mind in his normal everyday, you know, day job. He obsessively was looking at photos of the women that he had killed, that he had he kept in his little toolbox.

There, he would spend hours just going through the trophies he had stolen from them, like the shoes and the underwear, the pieces of fabric, things from their purse. Like all he could think about was doing it again, he obsessed over it. I hate this.

This also shows you he doesn't have remorse. No, like, this isn't a guy that's like, Oh, no, I did that, I shouldn't have done that. No, he loves it.

That's why he kept that shit so he can relive it a hundred more times, reliving, obsessing, just like, No, he loves what he's doing. You're not remorseful if you are just wanting to relive the situation, like if you're remorseful, you never want to think of that situation again. So, in late October of 1958, he was officially back on the hunt. But he was so eager and so fucking lazy that he didn't even bother to use another fake name.

He just went with Frank Johnson again, which was the same one he used last time. And up until this point, he's switched every time he's been switching and it's been working for him. And he did the same photographer trick this time, which you would think he would get out of that. Because he had one other time with Shirley Bridgeford, he did the Lonely Hearts thing.

Because he knew people were going to be looking at photographers. Now he's already killed again as a fake photographer named Frank Johnson. And he's going right back to that. So he's losing it, he's getting too eager, this obsession, this pathology is taking him over, and he's making mistakes.

So he took to the paper to look for his next victim. And he ended up finding an ad for a modeling studio called the Diane Studio. It was a modeling agency on Sunset Boulevard and it specialized in pinup modeling. So on October 27th, he showed up to the Diane studio and said he was Frank Johnson, a professional magazine photographer, and he needed models for a campaign. It's really gross to me that he does it this way because it's like he's going to a place and he's just essentially purchasing women to murder.

Yeah, like, he's paying, he's like, I would like to hire a model, I'm going to pay for that. And then I'm just going to take her out to the desert and murder her, torture her, murder her. It's like, that is so fucked up that he is able to do that.

I know I didn't really think of it like that until you said that, but you're right. When you look at it, it's like, Yeah, they're like the nuts and bolts of it. Yeah, like, strip everything else away.

This is him walking into a place, saying Hell, hello. I'd like to pay this much money for to have this girl come so I can take pictures. And nobody knows. Because that is a legitimate job and that is a legitimate transaction. Yeah, it's like, unfortunately, it's the perfect way for him to do it.

Truly, it was the perfect way he was able to get any women that he wanted. But then, at the same time, it's not the perfect way. Because you can't keep up with that for too long, that's true.

You're going to run out of places. They're going to start recognizing you, catching on to it, and if you're using the same name like this idiot, then they're really going to start catching on. But what is even more wild about this is exactly what we were just saying.

He had actually photographed Diane of the Diane Studio a few times before she owns the studio, she owns the studio. Damn, and she must have been, you know, I think she was probably in the beginning when I told you. He first moved to L.A.

Yeah, and he was trying to, like, work out how he would do all this, and he was taking pictures without. She was like a practice person. Yeah, I think he was. She was probably in the beginning there.

And when he showed up on this day, she recognized him, uh-oh.

And she obviously found him so creepy and like, off-putting, she's like, I'm not sending you one of my girls. Oh no, unfortunately, she didn't want to go with him. Oh, no.

But she said she would find a model for him that is not women supporting women. She did not want to turn away a paying customer, so she threw him another model. That's really fucked.

I promise you there will be another paying customer. Like, if somebody gives you the creeps, why would you ever sick them on? Another woman? Yeah, that bummed me out when I read it, I would never do that.

Cause obviously I don't think there was like a an intent, you know what I mean? No, obviously, not to be like a dick there.

But it's like, but that's a dick move. Why were you thinking of that? Like, if you found this man creepy and off-putting enough that you yourself will not pose for him, right? Why would you put another one of your girls on him?

Like, I might say, Oh yeah, like, I'll find you another girl and then just not return the call, but I just wouldn't, right, yeah.

I'd be like, Sorry, no one wants to work with you. No, cause you're weird. I don't. Maybe, I don't know. maybe 10 years ago my answer would have been different or something like that, I don't know.

So maybe she was young and just wasn't thinking, Yeah, I don't know, but it, it, it gave me like a EW. I was like, come on.

Yeah, that sucks, yeah, especially because of what happens.

So she threw him another model, 28 year old Lorraine Vigil, Mm-hmm. Lorraine had been working as a secretary when she came across the ad for the Diane modeling studio. And she decided, you know what, I'm going to give it a try, a little extra cash.

I want to make exactly some extra money. She wanted to change up her, her routine a little bit. She was like, you know what, I'm just going to spice it up a little bit. Well, it's like a hobby, you know?

I'm a beautiful woman, why not? I'm gorgeous, let's go, girls. And in fact, Lorraine had only been with the agency for a few days when she got the call from Diane.

Wow, and she got the call a little after 9 p.m. that night, saying that there was a job for her and she would be. And that Diane was going to be sending Frank Johnson by her apartment to pick her up within the hour. Okay, this is all very shady. I'm also like, can we not have them picked up at their apartments?

I'm like, there should have been a better protocol here. Yeah, like one place where pick them up at the office, yeah, like they have to come to the studio.

Yeah, so she's getting ready, and Diane calls her back as she's getting ready, and Diane says, Listen, I know I'm sending you out with this guy. I just want to warn you that he is quote sort of creepy and definitely not a pro photographer. So be careful.

What the fuck, yeah, if he's not even a pro photographer, then what are we doing here, Ma'am? And so I feel bad for Lorraine here because she's like, Okay, I'm already getting ready.

She's only been here a few days, she probably doesn't feel like she can refuse a client at this point. And that's the thing. So she's like, Okay, and then she's like, maybe because I'm new, Diane's just being extra cautious and like, over warning me kind of thing.

Like, she didn't really think much of it because she was like, I'm new, so maybe she's just being extra cautious. Also, from a business standpoint, why would you want to give one of your newest girls a bad experience? Right off the bat? She's not going to come back and model for you exactly.

Like, that's just bad business. I didn't really understand a lot of this thought process. As Tatiana says, Choices, yeah.

Choices truly. But, you know, she was like, whatever. So, a little past 10 p.m. Harvey knocks on Lorraine's apartment door. He says, Hello, I am Frank Johnson.

I'm a magazine photographer. And immediately, she reminded him that Diane insists on getting the money up front. Ah, well, that's good business. She was like, you should always get your money up front, always get your money up front.

Never wait, because people will fucking, they'll fuck it up. Yeah, they'll fuck with you. People will fuck with you if they are allowed to fuck with you. So don't let people fuck with you. They might even keep your money.

Yeah, they'll keep your money, so like, don't let them do that. And Harvey tried to pull that shit. So like, it's true. Because if you don't get it up front, they're going to try to pull some bullshit and give you less. Yeah.

And like, not to keep quoting people, but to quote my good girl Remy Bitch. But I have my money there. You go, pay me what you owe me, and Lorraine was like, Pay me what you owe me, like, you're not coming in this apartment.

You're not getting my services if you're not paying for them. No, I don't work for free, mama. So they had agreed upon $22. Okay, which again, this is in the 50s.

I know I'll do the conversion. You keep talking. So they had agreed upon $22..

And then he was going to give her $10.

And then he did convince her that he will give her the rest later. Oh honey, No, yeah, he won't.

Unfortunately, because people pleasing is a real thing and we've all been there. Yeah, that you're in a situation where you feel like you can't argue. She didn't argue, and she just said, Okay, she accepted it, and she accepted his promise that he was going to give the rest before the session.

And by the way, it would have been like $2.

75.

So there you go, that's a good amount of money, that's a good amount of money.

Less than half of that. Yeah, fuck off which that's fucked up. So Lorraine was immediately put off by this Frank Johnson fucking character.

I would have been put off by that shit, too. Hell yeah. And on top of being like, weird about the money situation. He smelled like cigarettes, she said, and he had bo ew.

Which, like, I would have been it for me. Insult behavior. Yeah, he is such an insult. Take a goddamn shower.

Every bit the creep that Diane had mentioned, I'm angry at Diane. I'm a little angry at Diane as well. But once they were in the car, because they were going to be going to the studio, the Diane's studio, because that's the other thing I should say. The reason that, like, he would come pick her up at the house is because a lot of times, especially in L.A. at this time, people didn't have cars.

Oh, okay, so, and it's not like you could call an Uber and just go to the studio. Why not? So? A lot of times, these photographers would drive them to the studio, part of the deal.

So it's kind of part of it. So he was driving them to the studio. And then Harvey, all of a sudden, on the way there, said that there's a change of plans. No, there's not. As we know, when Harvey says there's a change of plans, you don't listen to him. But he says that there's a change of plans. And that Diane had some other people coming into the studio, so it was taken up.

So they would have to use his studio in Anaheim. Okay, so Lorraine was like, all right, she was reluctant, but she was like, Ah, all right, whatever. Like, who am I to argue with all this?

This is probably the way things always go, because that's the thing it's like. When you're new to something like that, you're probably like, is this just par for the course? You know? Like, I am in L.A.

Yeah, because that's just how things go like. People are going to give you less than what they owe you and they're going to change plans on the way to the studio and this is probably fine. So she was just like, Okay, whatever.

Was ringing in her head, Yeah, and unfortunately, the benefit of hindsight is always easier. Totally, but, like, trusting your gut is definitely a real thing.

But then also at that point, it's like, what are you even going to do? what are you going to do at that point? Like, your only option at that point is tuck and roll. You got to think of a plan, basically, yeah.

But that would be very stressful, and at the same time, Harvey is attempting to kind of, like, ease her anxiety. Like, because he likes to get them comfortable. Yeah, he likes to. He doesn't want everybody screaming and yelling.

The second a woman turns around and challenges him in any way, he flees. Remember that's happened a few times, like he cannot handle a woman turning around and surprising him with any kind of reaction. No, that's literally when he dips, but these women don't know that.

So his whole thing is that he likes to get them calm, he likes to get them to trust him. Until he has that gun out and then he can really control you, but before that, he's got to keep you docile, he doesn't want you jumping at him. So he's kind of just telling her about this fictional job that he has come up with. What they're going to be shooting, how, you know, this is going to be great.

She's so beautiful, you could even make the cover, You're that beautiful, like this magazine, they're going to love you. He's hyping her up.

He's hyping her up and he's like, You know what, I think? If these photos really make it, then you are definitely cover model material. Oh man.

So she's like, Oh, this is great. But then, as they kept driving south toward the desert, they got on the Santa Ana freeway. And Lorraine is suddenly not feeling as at ease as she started to feel. She's like, Where are we going? Because she said that quote. He began driving at a tremendous speed.

And then she said, he would never answer my questions or even look at me. He just stopped. I've like, heard that in other cases when they just like, will not answer you and they just go into that zone. Oh my god, that would be so scary.

It's like being like animal putting on, like hunter mode, it truly is. It's like they just click it off. It's like how wolves, like we were just watching a TikTok about wolves like they can, like, play with you and stuff. But when that animal instinct kicks in, it's like they're a different beast.

It's so true. And she said it was clear to her that something bad was happening right now and she was really in full panic. Especially when he pulled off the freeway and onto the shoulder, Oh God. And this is when he told her he had a flat tire.

And she was like, I don't think you have a flat tire, but she was in full flight or fright mode, so she was about to take off running. She was like, I had a plan, I was going to bolt.

Like, as soon as he got out of the car, I was getting out of there. But before she could, he pulled out the gun. Oh my God, and he said, I'm an ex-con and I'll kill you. I don't give a darn if I go to the gas chamber.

Oh, my God, which is not something you want to hear, no? And he tried to force her to get her hands behind her back so he could tie them, but she shocked him.

Oh, yeah, she did something he was not expecting. She just grabbed the barrel of the motherfucking gun, Oh my god, and screamed at him while trying to wrench the gun away from him.

What a brave girlie. He was shocked me as well, shocked, and he fought back.

He just grabbed the barrel of a gun. Yeah, she just grabbed the barrel. Not today, motherfucker.

Not today. And I'm not the one no, or Frank, I should say, Oh my god, yeah, grabbed it.

She's yelling, he's yelling, she's trying to wrench it out of his hands, and he's yelling. Just do what I tell you and you won't get hurt. Which l-o, motherfucking l.

That's not true. I love that. It made me think of the Buffy episode that we just watched on the re-watcher. Actually, you guys got to listen to that, it's great.

But it's so much fun, we love doing that, It's just like a really fun show, yeah.

And it's like, Angel is getting his ass kicked by Kendra all over the place and gets thrown into a cage. And he's in a cage on his back. And he's like, Don't make me hurt you, and it's like, My friend, you are useless at this point.

You are in no position to be telling me, don't make me hurt you. And it's the same thing with Harvey. It's like, don't make me hurt you. Fuck off. I just grabbed the barrel of this gun.

Don't make me hurt you. Do you think I'm worried about you? like, at this point? Don't make me hurt you. Motherfucker, you little little man, get out of here.

And she grapples with Lorraine, and he's trying desperately to subdue her, but she's fighting like, Hell, hell yeah. And during this whole fight, the gun goes off. I was waiting for you to say that. The bullet went through Lorraine's skirt and it grazed her thigh.

Ooh, and she said quote I'll never forget the hideous sound of the bullet as it wined off into the night. Oh, which I also thought was like a very beautiful way of saying that. That is as it wined off into the night.

It was like it was like, really scary and terrifying, but like, beautiful at the same time, she said. She's very well spoken that way now. Even Harvey was shocked by this. Because, remember, he doesn't like trouble, and he doesn't like to. He doesn't like to shoot the gun, he's using the gun to scare people.

He likes to use a rope, yeah, because he can take the rope off, he can wipe everything down, he doesn't leave a trace.

Guns leave traces of people. They sure do so. He's like, that can be traced back to me, and apparently he was so shocked, he just goes, I shot you, Oh my God.

And Lorraine was like, Uh, yeah, but she wasn't going to sit there and ponder that with him for a little while. So she twisted out of his grasp, because at this point, he's grabbed her. She twists out of there because she's like, you're a little fucking turd of a man. She twists out of there, jumps up, shot in the thigh by the way and runs the fuck out of there. Oh my God.

As she's running, she is tackled from behind like a fucking football player by Harvey, coming out of his shocked stupor, tackled her down from behind. Luckily, he had not made it to his killing ground yet. The desert where he feels comfortable taking his time and torturing women for fucking hours, like a disgusting little maggot that he is. They were on the side of the highway, albeit in a pretty desolate area, about like 200 feet off the actual highway. But it was a heavily traveled area. I was going to say, anybody could drive by at any moment.

Exactly, and he knows that, you know, who did happen to come by, like you said, at any moment. Highway patrolman Thomas Mulligan Oh, Thomas Mulligan, he knows what the fuck is up, yeah.

I have faith in Thomas Mulligan. He happened to be on his way home after his shift. Oh man, he's like, I thought I was done for the night. And what's crazy is he didn't even see the two of them.

Yet he just saw Harvey's black Dodge on the side of the road and thought someone was having car trouble. Well, the dome light was on and both doors were open.

That's suspicious. So he was like, I'm going to listen to my gut, so he just went to investigate it. And he came upon Harvey and Lorraine, engaged in like a violent struggle. Oh my god.

Like, he had no idea that's what he was coming up on. Harvey is such a scared little bunny when he is confronted with any kind of authority, so he stopped immediately when he saw the cop. Wow.

This allowed Lorraine to jump up off the ground and literally just like sprint at the patrolman and she's screaming, he's trying to kill me. Later, after Harvey had been arrested, Mulligan described Harvey as having a quote lunatic stare, Oh, Jesus. And he said it took quote three or four minutes to get ahold of himself because he was just like, out of it.

That's scary, and he said, a lunatic stare. It's like what we always point to like in the Bundy case when he, like, lose, like he's cool, calm and collected in court, and then loses it. Yep, and you could see.

It's so scary, it is literally like a flick of a switch it is, and what's crazy is later, after talking about it, Lorraine actually said that. She bit his wrist at one point and he cried out during that struggle like a little bitch.

And yeah, the way she described it was. I bit his wrist and he cried out. Then suddenly I found I had a gun in my hand, I turned it around and pointed it at him. If I had known how to fire it, I believe I could have killed him. But he just stood there and watched me and after a while the police came.

Wow, I'm glad that she didn't kill him, yeah.

Because that would have been served time for everything that he's done to these women, exactly including her. And I don't want her to have that on her head that she had to kill someone, yeah.

Because no matter who it is, like, that's a heavy load I imagine to take. So it's like, I don't want that on her, No, so. Harvey was taken to the local sheriff's station and he tried to explain that he had only been in California for a few months. He had met that girl that night.

And then he said he didn't have any plan to hurt her, he was just trying to scare her. Were they like, What's with all the rope and the gun then? and also like, That's still fucked up, my guy?

That's still not allowed, even if this was true, which we know it's not. I was just trying to scare her. Is not a great excuse. Why, though, you were just trying to terrorize your community? That's like you're trying to terrorize this woman for no reason.

Like, what's wrong with you? The fuck? Is that about? How? Is that a good excuse? And detectives didn't believe Harvey's story. They were like, Yeah, no, fortunately they didn't.

So he was booked into the Orange County Jail that night on charges of attempted rape and assault with a deadly weapon. Good asshole. So he said, I love. I'm only trying to scare her, and it's like, Okay, well, I'm only trying to scare you with a fucking prison sentence, you dick.

Yeah, how about that? Can I scare you with that, right? Can I scare you with the electric chair?

Like, that's pretty scary, fuck you. So this was good. We finally have him, and now that he's in custody and he's being charged, Harvey really tried to minimize all the events.

I had a feeling that was going to happen. He did, he did so, he minimized everything, but then he kind of essentially admitted that he was planning to sexually assault Lorraine.

Oh, good, but he was definitely not going to tell them that he was planning to murder her when he definitely was. At least not at first, he wouldn't admit that he later does.

Okay, he said that, you know, he was. He was just trying to assault her. Fellas, like, come on, don't worry about it, everybody like, come on.

Just guys being dudes, just guys being dudes. Locker room talk. The problem was, Harvey was never as smart or as stealthy as he thought he was or wanted to be. No.

And this whole story was so fucking cobbled together. He had a long criminal history of attacking women that they now were privy to. And detectives were beginning to get the feeling that there was something much bigger happening here. And not only just that he was planning to attack this woman and assault her. They were like, he was definitely going to hurt her at the very least, but we think he was going to try to kill her. And now they're sitting there going. I think he might've done this before.

Like, I think there's going to be more here. We should look into this. Thank gosh. They had that feeling, yeah. And luckily they sent an alert out to all the law enforcement agencies in the area. And detectives in Los Angeles thought, You know what?

We have a few missing women and we should see if we can tie these to him. That's a good thought, guys, there you go. I'm glad you think it, I like it.

And they sent two detectives to Orange County to interview Harvey.

So detectives from O.C. and L.A. interrogated Harvey separately for days. They were hoping to crack him or just get him to slip up at all, and finally they were successful. He agreed to take a polygraph test and, according to reports, quote the polygraph needle about hit the ceiling when the administrator showed him a photograph of Ruth Mercado.

Now this was all it took, like he saw that needle go boop, boop, boop, like he watched it happen.

Like, he knew that he was caught and he goes, You can't beat the machine. I suppose you found my toolbox, he's playing with me now, but they hadn't found his toolbox.

They had not found his toolbox. Why would you? Just? I'm so happy he did. Why would you just offer that up? This is a case where, like, IQ does not correlate with common sense. Well, because it's like book smarts versus street smarts.

And also where it almost feels like he knew he had to be caught to stop. Yeah, like, it's one of those things. I don't think he wanted to stop, but I think he knows one. He doesn't want to go back to prison, No.

He did not like prison and two. I think he knows like this just isn't going to end. Like, I might as well just give it up, because, like, just kill me instead. I think he'd rather die than go back to prison or any of that.

And I think he's just so fucking cocky, yeah, like, I think it also has a lot to do with that. But, like I said, they have not found his toolbox yet, which I'm also like, you didn't find it because they searched his apartment like you didn't find that.

So they the LAPD detectives went back to the apartment to search again, and in a more thorough search, they found the toolbox.

So he hadn't said that they wouldn't have found it, no, and that's like, I mean, like, those are literally smoking guns right there.

And it was hidden in the garage. Guys, that's exactly where you find a toolbox. Like, it's not like he even put it like behind his air conditioner, a la dexter or something.

It's like you didn't really have to look that far. How did you miss that? Thank goodness, he's an idiot. That's a big old. Yikes, yeah.

And when they got the toolbox, obviously, they found 22 photos of Judy Dahl, Shirley Bridgeford both alive and dead. That's horrible. And as well as all this stuff, all the trophies that he had taken from them, now, these photos, we were just talking about it, they're really disturbing.

And it's not because they're graphic. no, they're they're really not graphic, but they are so graphic, they're emotionally graphic all at the same time. I saw Alaina looking at an article and I was like, Are those the real photos?

And she was like, Unfortunately, yeah, there's one, and I'm not sure what, um, which women, which woman it was, but like, she literally is crying. That's Shirley Bridgeford that, like you can, it's moments before she was killed. It's horrific because these pictures, the Shirley Bridgeford one, she's in the desert.

She's on a blanket, just like he said, You know, you know how that night. When we talked about it in part one, she was not, um, she was not a model. This was the lonely hearts one that he did. She was the mom of two, she was just out on a date.

And like, there was no tying up going to be happening in any sense of the word, like for photos or anything like that. And in the photo, she's tied up on a blanket in the middle of the desert, gagged, and she is crying. And it's horrific to look at. And I don't recommend you look at it, but please, if you are looking at it. Like, when I saw it, I was like, that's someone's mom. You also just have to wonder how those photos get out there, like, why were they just released?

That's so fucked, like I don't know why anybody would want to see that. It's a very disturbing one, it really is. it's a very disturbing one.

And this Judy doll sitting on a chair, tied up and looking scared. But I think that was during the session. That's like, a host, yeah, but even still. But that's even scary, too, because you're like, it's right before.

Yeah, like, it's right before, that's. Those are her final moments. I don't know her, I like, don't have a connection to her other than this case.

I shouldn't see that like, that's not for my eyes. Yeah, it's one of those things. It's like, I feel like my opinion on crime scene photos have shifted a lot.

Yeah, as we've gone through this podcast, I think, honestly, no, I agree. Looking at so many, I think it's like it's changed the way I view them. And I think I kind of look looking at these. I was like, Yeah, I don't, I don't think I'm supposed to see that.

I think it's a little inhumane personally, because I said to Elena. I was like, if I knew that article was out there and that had happened to you? Like, I had to literally put myself in that situation. And I was like, flicking through an article and I saw, like, you, yeah, like crying on a blanket, about to be brutally strangled to death. One. I couldn't imagine being your family and seeing that.

And two, I couldn't imagine being your family and knowing how many people had clicked on that article and saw you. Like, my like, I'm going to cry right now in your final moments, in your final moment, like, that's, that's not, that's not for public consumption.

It is like a photo. It changed my view a lot. a photo is a lot it is, and I think it's because I don't know.

I don't know these ones, these ones changed a lot of my view because they're different. They're a different kind of crime scene photo they are. They're not of a dead body.

They're not of a graphic in the in the bloody or gory sense of the word, but these ones are, like, emotionally graphic they are.

I don't know, it's like these ones bummed me out. I don't think they should be out there. All crime scene photos bummed me out. These ones just like hit different.

You're just like, Oof, like, I think I don't know, and they're taken by him and I don't know.

That's some like, because crime scene photos in general are usually taken by police officers or crime scene technicians. Obviously, and like autopsy photos and all those those feel more clinical and a little more like. I don't know. Well, no, and I think that's exactly what we're getting at here.

Is that, like these aren't clinical? These weren't to assess anything at the scene? No, these were for him, these were for him.

And now we're looking at them and we're not sitting there, like staring at them. But like, if you read an article about this, you're probably going to see one. But yeah, I think that's what it is, I think it's that they're. They were taken by him.

Yeah, and that they're the final moments of these women's lives. Yeah, cause I can just you look at the angle they're taken and you're like, he's just standing over them. It's just, I don't know.

I didn't like it. It's upsetting. I just want you guys to know that if you, if you stumble across them, cause you likely will. If you look up this case, they're kind of everywhere. Oh, if you google his name, it's like some of them are like in the first three.

And they look like they're not real, but they're very real. Yeah, but yeah, it's definitely the photographer that bothers me, I don't like that. We're looking at it through his cause.

We're looking at it through his eyes. Yeah, and I don't like that, no, but yeah, that's just the evolution of our view on crime scene photos.

But the discovery of these photos and the trophies that were in the toolbox, that was all detectives needed to tie the three murders to Harvey. Yeah, boom, here they are, thank you for that box.

The pictures? He knew it at this point, so he was like, yep, so it almost seemed again like he was. Detectives thought. He seemed relieved to be caught. Hmm.

I don't know if this has to do with some kind of, like, you know, psychology here. That he was feeling like an urge that could not be tampered, so he was feeling like I need to be stopped. I don't know if I agree with that from what I've read about him, but like, who am I? I wasn't there. Well, and there's so much weird psychology that we just don't even know about when it comes to people killing people.

Yeah, especially serial killers, that I think it could be anything at this point, I think it does. It was definitely clear that he was beginning to lose lose it.

And he was beginning to lose his grasp on normal reality and being able to play the two sides of his life, which were. I'm a TV repairman, no, I'm this. And it's like, I think he wasn't able to straddle that line anymore. And so I think because he was unable to control his urges anymore, that was becoming an issue. And maybe that's why they saw it as him being relieved.

But I don't know. But now that he was safely in custody, he began telling detectives just every detail about the murders. And they said, And this is why I kind of like, go back and forth. He was almost boasting about how he'd found the women and lured them to their death. Well, what I was going to say, too, actually, and it's perfect that you just said that.

Maybe he was also, like, in a weird way, excited that this was all going to like, he was finally going to get his big moment. And finally, he was going to be seen by women across the world and that we're going to be afraid of him, you know, maybe that was the relief, I could definitely see that it was a relief of I'm not invisible anymore.

Yeah, absolutely, because he did mention before he wanted to do something different, right? and he wanted to be famous and here you go.

Now, the evidence in the toolbox, according to him, was kept so that if he was ever caught, he would be convicted, he said. I quote, I didn't have the guts enough to give myself up. I wanted to, but I just couldn't. This, of course, was a lie. I don't believe that's a lie.

He did not keep now, that was according to him. Remember, yeah, he did not keep that toolbox just to get convicted. That's not what that was.

He wanted to try Harvey, that was trophies, that was you, because you were reliving them, you wanted to open it.

You wanted to touch it, you wanted to think about it, you wanted to be back at that place. Shut the fuck up with this. I wanted to be convicted.

I just didn't have the guts to turn back, shut up, shut up. Yeah, just admit that you're a disgusting little worm person and that you like to open this toolbox and touch all the things that you had taken from these women and look at these photographs of them in their last moments.

And go back to that moment and go back to that moment, just admit it, you disgusting little worm, yeah.

Admit it, but he won't. He's going to sit there and pretend that he just wanted to get caught and this, it's ridiculous. Now. Harvey was determined not to go back to prison.

He definitely didn't. He immediately asked for the death penalty. He was like, I don't want a death, I don't want a prison sentence, okay?

It's not really about what you want right now, you don't really get to pick the law, but cool. So after the confession, he agreed to take the detectives out to the desert and to the crude grave sites of Shirley and Ruth. I'm glad that because, remember, Judy was found.

And were they able to be, like, put to a grave, to a final resting place, they were? But when they did unearth the remains, the San Diego coroner, Al Gallagher, said that the remains were, quote, little more than a bag of bones. That's really sad, which is very sad.

Now, on November 5th, 1958, he was taken to the San Diego County Sheriff's Office and he kept right on confessing. But this time they recorded it, so they have a whole record of it. He went through the details of each murder, how he did it, and he insisted he had two motives, he said. Quote My primary motive? I did want to take some pictures.

Which is like, That's not a motive, dude, that's not you're gross. You can take photos and not murder people, he said. But aside from that, I was interested in having sexual relations. Wow.

So you were interested in raping, exactly why don't you call it what it is? Harvey? Because you can have sexual relations if you build a relationship with somebody, which you should have taken a crack at that. But you never, literally, never did. And that's what kills me.

It's like, you're an idiot, because it's like you even signed up for a lonely hearts thing. You could have found someone you went out with Shirley, you were on a date with her.

If you had liked her, she seemed like a nice, nice woman. You could have gone on several dates and you could have gotten to know each other, and then she would have been comfortable maybe becoming more intimate with you later.

But you wanted to take it exactly, and it's like, Fuck, you stop calling it sexual relations.

That's not what it is. Say you wanted to rape women because you didn't want to have sex with them. No, because if you did, you would have formulated a relationship and had consensual sex with people. Yup.

But no, you wanted to take it, you wanted to rape exactly you, disgusting little worm, such a scary voice.

He's so disgusting. He went into graphic detail. He included his bullshit thoughts about how he thought some of the women enjoyed themselves with him. That's so fucking beyond, so foul.

Like, Wow. He said he didn't use a gun to kill them because it would be traced back to his gun, and he said strangling left less physical evidence. I also don't necessarily think that's true, I don't think so either.

I think he maybe discovered that along the way. But I think no matter what, the rope would have been involved somehow, because it had been involved since he was three years old. Ding, ding, ding, that's literally my next thing. He just. It was a fetish.

This was his fetish, a dangerous one. This was one that was beyond right. And sure, I'm sure he realized when he got that gun. Oh, I probably shouldn't shoot this because it could be traced back to me.

But that wasn't the primary.

Exactly the primary thing was he enjoyed using a rope. That's how he liked to do it. And you know what, he had that predilection since he was very young.

Right, obviously, like you said, I don't even think he, he might not have even recognized that. That was what it was, yeah, but that was what it was, exactly.

It absolutely was. But the confession went on for hours until he had finally given every single detail of the crimes against the four women. And then he was returned to his cell, where he was immediately put on suicide watch because he had made several comments about potentially killing himself right now. From the moment he was arrested, San Diego and Los Angeles prosecutors constantly had to worry about him taking his own life because he was constantly talking about it.

And they were also worried about him making a pretty convincing bid for the insanity defense. Yeah, they were worried about that, and they didn't want him to possibly win his freedom back at some point. No, no, no, no, no, so, Ophelia.

Actually, prior to his arraignment, Ophelia, his mom, visited him in jail. And on her way out of the jail, she said to the press. Talk to any of the people in the jail. He is not vicious, he's sick.

Ophelia, don't say anything, Ophelia, say so, much less if that's what you're going to say, he's not vicious.

Don't say anything because that is so disrespectful to anyone who was related to one of those women who were viciously attacked, viciously raped, and viciously murdered.

He spent five to ten minutes strangling them until there was no signs of life. That, in and of itself, that little, it's not a little part of what he did, but that small piece of the whole operation is so vicious. And he's a rapist, exactly, he's a rapist, Ophelia.

The entire operation abducting women is vicious. Come on, I understand you're his mother, and I understand you wanting to say he is sick, because in some sense, he is sick. And if you want to just sit around and say that to yourself, to get by and make the days go on by all means.

But don't put that into the public where it's going to be eaten up and reported on. And don't you dare say he is not vicious to the press, don't say it because he is that is minimizing to such an insane level.

And don't say talk to any of the people in the jail. I've said this once, I'll say it again. Ophelia. There's no women in that jail, he's in a jail with men, of course, he's not fucking up in there.

Why don't we talk to Lorraine and find out if he's vicious because she fucking lived that? You want to ask her about it, you want to look at the probably scar on her leg from when he shot her.

It's one of those things. I know you're his mother. Yeah, he is sick, and I know this is a loss. This is a tragedy for you as well.

This is your child who has done this, and I understand again, saying he's sick, you do you whatever, but don't say he's not vicious. That's like, Whoa, dude?

Don't do that.

So, on November 8th, 1958, a grand jury convened in the San Diego County Courthouse. And he was indicted for the March 9th murder of Shirley Ann Bridgeford and July 24th murder of Ruth Mercado. A few weeks later, on November 21st, he appeared before Judge John. I think it's Hewicker. In Department 4 of Superior Court, he pled guilty and the sentencing was deferred until a later date. But we all knew that he was asking for the death penalty.

Now again, this was a death penalty case. That's what they were, that was what was on the table, so there was going to be a lot of red tape galore. But in the meantime, Ophelia just kept talking about Harvey just being girl shy and not understanding how to be around women.

I don't think he's girl shy. I think he's raped several women at this point. I don't really know if I would call that shy, yeah.

And she was just ignoring the assaults and robberies he had committed over the years, just minimizing the straight up murder that he had committed. That's fucked. And Dr. J..P. Hilton, that first psychiatrist that evaluated Harvey when he was a child. He actually wrote to the probation officer and he said that, yeah. He did have trouble with women and said that he had become increasingly aggressive towards females as he grew older.

So Ophelia is trying to minimize, and this doctor is like, Yeah, sure, he does have trouble with women, but that's making him aggressive towards them. Yeah, so they tried very hard to prove that he was simply mentally ill and not competent to stand trial, but it wasn't working. OK, good. He was very clearly anti-social and very delusional.

Yeah, that is for sure, but he was clear when he was questioned. You know that before committing the murders, he said that he was feeling some kind of way about it, right, that alone.

Is you saying I know what I was doing was wrong? Yeah, but I went ahead and did it anyway. Mm-hmm, that's you saying? I have a clear idea of what's right and wrong, but I decided to do it anyway and now I feel bad.

Exactly.

And he didn't want to put himself down the river, even when he was lying. So, on December 15th, 1958, he appeared in the Superior Court for the sentencing. And he definitely, he told his lawyers, Do not stop me from getting the death penalty. But legally, they had an obligation to mount some kind of defense. Yeah, they couldn't just be like, sure.

So to make it harder to do that, the prosecutor William Lowe. He learned all about his criminal past. You know how dangerous he was to society when he was in New York, how he was like the phantom and like all that. And they presented a great case with all the confessions, witnesses, they included, testimony from Lorraine Vigil. In the end, he was found guilty of two counts of first degree murder. And again, he wanted to be executed at the earliest possible date. But neither Harvey nor his attorney had anything to say when the verdict was given. They were like, I'm not speaking because I want to be executed.

What are you going to say at that point anyway? Like, other than I'm sorry, I'm not going to say that. Judge Hewicker actually had a lot to say, though I love when the judge has a lot to say.

Yeah, he had been sitting here, he had listened to the entire thing. He heard the detailed descriptions of how he had murdered these women. And after everything had gone down, he said this, I know there are a lot of people, people in high places, that don't believe in capital punishment. Now, if life imprisonment in California meant life imprisonment, that would be one thing. life imprisonment in this state could be given years or more.

And when I say more, it depends on the past record of the defendant. If a law could be passed and placed in the Constitution so that each legislature couldn't come along and modify it. If they made life imprisonment, life imprisonment without the possibility of pardon or parole, that would be one thing, but we don't have that, we will never have it. And there are some crimes that are so revolting that, in my opinion, there is only one penalty that can be imposed.

And that penalty is the death penalty, which I understand what he's saying about the life imprisonment thing. I do, too. Because I mean, we've said this a million times about the we're gray, yeah, that we're gray on the-.

I'm leaning more towards against it, but I do get that that. It's like, yeah, it would be nice if life imprisonment was a thing for these assholes, right? But a lot of times, it's not, yeah.

Even when you get sentenced to life, it's not even life exactly. And so after this was said, the clerk said. Harvey Murray Glattman, You have heretofore been charged in an indictment by the grand jury of this county, to which you have heretofore entered a plea of guilty. As to both counts, and it is ordered that the death sentence be imposed, Harvey was sent to San Quentin prison in January 1959..

He sat on death row. But we know that's never the end, because any death penalty case triggers an automatic appeal to be heard from the superior court. His was found was heard by the Supreme Court of California on June 5th, 1959. So he did appeal? Yeah, he did appeal.

It's like an automatic appeal. Oh, I don't think I realized that, an automatic appeal. They reviewed the evidence, they found that there was no error in anything.

They upheld everything. At 10 a.m on September 18th, 1959, he was led from his cell to the gas chamber at San Quentin. He was seated strapped into a chair. At 10.03 a..m, the Cyanide tab was dropped, releasing gas into the room.

He apparently, according to witnesses, started inhaling very deeply.

I think that was probably the reason for. And what happens in these scenarios is you just kind of watch the pulse go boop, boop, boop. And it plummeted. He was pronounced dead at 10.12 a..m. So from 10.03 to 10.12 is how long it took. That's not very long.

I don't know how long these those things normally take, but I was like, Whoa, so that was the end of Harvey Glattman bye. But if you remember throughout the second half of the if you remember, I'm like, if you remember throughout the second half of the 20th century, if you remember that, I think I do. California became a place of lots of serial killers.

Of Cray, Cray and the Bray Bray, many serial killers. And a lot of times, as we got later and later, they got those crazy, you know, monikers in the press when we couldn't identify them. And it kind of was like an epidemic.

But in 1958, when all this was going on, nobody really could even conceive of a Harvey Glattman. You know, like this, this was a monster that we had not yet studied and not yet understood. Yeah, not that we were going to understand. But obviously. He eventually got a nickname like the Glamour Girl Slayer, because everybody always attributes a nickname to it.

But when it was going on, he really, it wasn't a huge story, it was like a it was a big story. But it wasn't what. It wasn't sensationalized. Or what it would be in. Like the 70s or the 80s, you know, like any of those. But in April of 1954, after he had been released, then this was before he had started this killing spree, yeah.

It was after he had been released from Sing Sing Okay, and before he'd moved from California, that little span of time. Yeah, yeah, there was a body discovered.

Oh, shit, in that span of time where he was out of prison, not in California. And this body was discovered in Boulder Hills, which is just a short drive from Denver, if you remember he was living in Colorado, yeah.

So this was a nude body of a young woman, This woman was a Jane Doe for more than 50 years. Oh my god. Until 2008, when investigators in Colorado said that they were tentatively identifying her as Catherine E. Ferrand Dyer, which was a young woman who lived in a Denver boarding house, not far from where Harvey was staying with his parents.

Oh, shit, now. The investigation had been reported a short time earlier. After various exchanges of information on a public message board that linked this Jane Doe to Harvey Glattman, people were starting to talk about it.

The reason was the timeline fit, the methods fit, and a lot of the facts of the case were fitting. Facts like Jane Doe had been hit by a car just shortly before her death. And the measurements of the vehicle were the exact match of Harvey's car at the time. Wow, and even more to add to that when you're, like, hit by a car.

Yeah, because I'm like, what? During his interrogation in Orange County, detectives asked Harvey about his time in Colorado, and he explained that he had photographed some women in Colorado while in Denver. And when detectives were basically like, are they dead? or are they alive? did you leave them alive? he was like, No, they were mostly.

He was like, I think they were all alive, and then he smirked and said, Unless they've been run over.

Yep, oh shit, unless they've been run over and this girl was hit by a car, why would he say that? And he smirked.

Wow.

So Harvey was found at the wrist and ankles in exactly the same way that he would bind his other victims. And it fits his M.

O But obviously Harvey had been long dead by this time, by the time she's identified. And it kind of seemed like they were never going to connect the necessary dots. But a year after, Colorado detectives first said that they identified this body, this is wild. The real Catherine Dyer was found alive in in Queensland, Australia. So they had falsely identified this.

Now, apparently, at this point, care workers were preparing to move this woman they knew as Barbara into an assisted living facility. When they did that, they came across a ton of items that belonged to someone named Catherine Dyer. They dug a little deeper and they learned that Barbara was in fact Catherine Dyer. She had disappeared from Colorado more than a half century earlier. And they were like, What the fuck is going on? But she wouldn't talk about it, like she didn't want to say why she had disappeared, she didn't want to say any of that.

So there was a press briefing on this story. And Boulder Detective Steve Ainsworth said Catherine Dyer was, quote, quite a mysterious person. Even before she disappeared, there is not a lot known about her life. I think for some reason, she didn't want to be found. Okay, now that's interesting. So you're like, Whoa?

Okay, what's happening in and of itself now? Ainsworth, that detective. He remained committed to identifying this Boulder Falls, Jane Doe, and in the fall of 2019, or, excuse me, fall of 2009. Through DNA technology, he was able to identify the remains as Dorothy Gay Howard, who was a 16 year old runaway from Phoenix, Arizona. Yup.

It was actually in 2004 that historian Sylvia Pedham took to the like. She took some interest in this case, the Jane Doe, and she asked if they could exhume the Jane Doe's body. And she was able to get like. They were able to do it, like official permission to do it, and then they were able to reconstruct what she looked like. And when they did that, they published this reconstruction in an article with, like, Sylvia's stuff about it. And it was seen by Dorothy's grandniece, Michelle, That's how she was found to be that, because she was like, that's Dorothy. Like. She had known the story about her. And she got in touch with authorities, gave her DNA, they connected them and were able to identify this. And so was she definitely murdered by Harvey, they think now Ainsworth, So that's the problem.

So Ainsworth believes Dorothy had run away. That's why she was in Colorado. She ran away from her husband in Phoenix like a bad situation, and had come to Denver to visit an aunt. And a week later, she disappeared without a trace. Now, they said around this time, scores of women and girls had vanished around this time in Boulder Canyon, the majority of which are unsolved. WOW. Officials truly believe she is a victim of Harvey Glattman, but they have not been able to confirm it. Unless they got run over.

He didn't say like he, it seemed like he was talking about multiple people, so maybe he changed his. I would be willing to bet that some of these women are some of his first kills. Wow, I would be willing to bet that, even like the first one in California. He did seem to know what he was doing, and he did seem to have confidence. That's the thing he went right to her apartment, Judy and Doll.

It seemed like he was pretty confident. I think he had done this before in some other capacity, and he found what worked. Wow, the fact he drove her out to the desert, he.

Had the blanket in his trunk, the rope, he did the same thing he did.

Leave Colorado abruptly. Why did you leave? He left because he figured he could do it. Wow, because he's already been arrested in Colorado, and he had already photographed women in Colorado, right? So he had already started that whole shtick.

So I gotta start somewhere new.

More women, even easier. Through that whole shtick, holy shit. So he had perfected his way. I guarantee you, I'm like, let's DNA test these people.

Let's figure this out. I need to like, nail this fucker with more people because I want to know I know he's done more. Such a wild story, I know this story.

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